Micro 675: Heroes of the Storm uPick - Game Over!

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: Seiko x Naomi

You alive ns?

[borkjerfkin]

that sounds familiar what game was that from

[borkjerfkin]

anyway, bork, you town?

hell
fucking
yes

[borkjerfkin]

oh that was the game I had to powwow w/ ffery to decide who won

[borkjerfkin]

I'd probably hold off for now; I think certain heroes are probably going to be obviously pigeonholed into certain archetypes more than others (jaina comes to mind), and I think it's going to give scum a good sounding board at night for figuring probability of hitting stronger vs weaker PRs or PRs of a certain type vs the (imo low) ROI of forcing someone to have to stretch farther lorewise to make the fakeclaim they want to make.

There's also no going back if we do it now, whereas the reverse is not true.

[borkjerfkin]

There is no third faction in this game per the rules.

[borkjerfkin]

Ultimately I think it's going to be much ado about nothing at best and a distraction at worst

[borkjerfkin]

Are you actually serious

[borkjerfkin]

What exactly about "us" lends to the inference of "us, the scumteam i am on" vs "us, the playerlist"

[borkjerfkin]

Kay.

[borkjerfkin]

I have a couple (light) townreads, need to wait till us-gate comes to a head before i share them.

[borkjerfkin]

syr this is semi what i expected, although not the conclusion, so follow up:

How was dunn's reaction so different from mine that you find him scummy and (presumably) not me

[borkjerfkin]

Meh my current meta is getting a PR and being forced to claim D1 because i've been scummy. Kinda like a curse.

I'm inclined to believe this bit of pathos is genuine, considering this literally did just happen in a game I modded with him in it.

[borkjerfkin]

Also, how likely do you guys think there is a 3rd faction in this game?

Curious as to why your mind immediately went here though.

[borkjerfkin]

i think syr is probably town.

[borkjerfkin]

39 makes it pretty clear he's got a more oblique trajectory than what he is presenting, at least.

[borkjerfkin]

He might, but he was under essentially zero pressure (other than a really light 36 callout) at the point that he told me to vacate the thread, which leads me to believe he was legitimately more concerned about ensnaring someone at that time than having an escape route that I'd just gift him.

I mean [anyone] might be mafia pretending to [do thing i think is town] so that i'll townread them; that's not really a helpful way to approach the game

[borkjerfkin]

I bet Syryana was trying to get Charloux quicklynched on a reason that only looks good!!! Mafia like hiding behind FAKE reasons to attack people cos they know if the reason sounds good they can vote innocent townies and noone will know!

Is this a posting schtick btw? Like you're trying to be a character?

[borkjerfkin]

I feel you; i don't have an issue with it, as i said i think 39 made it pretty obvious that's what he was doing

[borkjerfkin]

do you know your hydra buddy well enough to answer 63 for them?

[borkjerfkin]

that's unfortunate

back later

[borkjerfkin]

f you know that 36 meant he was trying to trap someone, wouldn't the peoples he was trying to trap know too?

the quality of the trap isn't relevant; the intent is.

Aaaand, since he voted dunn, that must've mean dunn fell into his trap! But if that was the case he'd yell at dunn and go "you did this and fell into my trap, so you're mafia!" but he had no explanation at all.

that he didn't give one doesn't mean he doesn't have one; people decide not to be super transparent all the time. But you're right, only he can explain that.

The way I see it, 34 makes suuper obvious that dunn thought anyone who bought into the charloux wagon was a bad person, so I'd think 39 was just a sneaky little get outta jail free in case Dunn went "hey, Sy!! you were on the scummy make-a-big-deal charloux wagon too!!"

I believe that you genuinely believe this and am keeping the possibility of it in my mind; dollars to donuts I just don't agree.

p-edit: yep. townread stays. you might even have a point on dunn.

[borkjerfkin]

Oxford is getting a squinty eyed glare from me.

I see a pretty believable trajectory from them

[borkjerfkin]

Also consider my vote serious now because why the fuck not

[borkjerfkin]

I'm reading everything bubbles writes in Harley Quinn's voice for whatever reason

ok i'm done shitposting

[borkjerfkin]

i swear to fucking god if i joined another game with a fucking gladiator in it

[borkjerfkin]

it says he thinks town have reasons to lie in a mass flavorclaim, or any massclaim at all

zzzzzzz

[borkjerfkin]

Laaanguaaaage!!

Dunny, Charloux kinda said his claim was a lie though!

Syr, it's cos we already wanted to claim pregame!

- Bubbles

I agree that this was a pro-town claim, FWIW.
Nobody should visit TOB unless they think the advantages outweigh the consequences.

[borkjerfkin]

And they should probably claim that they did this the day after, even if they don't claim what their visit did.

[borkjerfkin]

Town:
syr
TOB

possibly charloux
possibly dunn (haven't really explained this one, but I'll give him a 'just left of center' townread for being sensible about 'us-gate', and syr's comments about him are not in play due to his softclaim about votes)

[borkjerfkin]

Why'dja post this? Are ya sleepy?

Cause it's like the most obtuse way to interpret what Charloux said possible

And why's Syr town? Even if ya buy his train of thought about moving the game in a direction, that doesn't mean he's town!!! He could be scum having that same train of thought!!! Just 'cos his direction's plausible doesn't mean he's more town... after all, scum likes to push the game in lotsa ways too!!!!

Not really willing to rehash what I said earlier; I hope your points here sound as confbiasy to you as they do to me

[borkjerfkin]

What's to say he can't be mafia laying the trap?

You only proved why he wasn't mafia!! not why he was town

!!!

(underlined: really??)

I don't

know

he's not scum; it's not a deductive reasoning game dude. It's a judgment call based on things I believe town are more likely to do than scum.

Same as anything else that happens in this game.

[borkjerfkin]

Then we're at an impasse because, as I've said, I disagree, and I don't see anything that is making me reconsider.

I don't know you're quantifying "safe/controlled" (i actually think his play looks not really like that) or how that translates to scum motivation here.

Explain why you don't think they look genuine, because that's actually germane to an alignment discussion.

[borkjerfkin]

Like we were in RVS at that point and you yourself jumped on that wagon right after he did (for reasons I found fine even if I think the premise of the argument sucks ass)

I'm struggling to see where you're coming from

[borkjerfkin]

Linear/chaotic means diddly squat to me, tbh. I don't know how one would attribute alignment probabilities to any of that.

He performed a reaction test, but he made it clear and dropped it quickly.

After getting a read he felt good about from things that happened during it. I agree it would have been more effective to wait for SxN to post. I still don't think that matters.

The bottom line is, he did a thing, immediately signaled that it was a test, and backed it up well enough in 71 that I believe that was legitimately his intent. I understand that you or another head of yours don't think that's compelling evidence that he's town -- noted, and as such I think we have to agree to disagree with the info we currently have and promise to reevaluate later while moving on from this before people start tuning out the game. Any other reads right now?

[borkjerfkin]

You can't likely [because Seiko x Naomi is scum]

This post made me feel a little uneasy; if I am interpreting it correctly with the brackets where I have them (am I???), it's positing a level of confidence in SxN being scum that I don't think a townie should have right now. Templered that it is possibly playstyle (like I'd never accuse someone like Katsuki of being scum for doing shit like this)

[borkjerfkin]

Probably wont be around much till

[borkjerfkin]

Fucking phone.

Till monday. Got company.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm around-ish, a lot of people are going to bed. What do you want to talk about?

(When did you misread me badly? Tales of you?)

[borkjerfkin]

FWIW I was hoping for more of an NS presence early game -- I find him easier to read than you (I don't feel that I've ever really had a game where I was super wrong about him)

[borkjerfkin]

FWIW I was hoping for more of an NS presence early game -- I find him easier to read than you (I don't feel that I've ever really had a game where I was super wrong about him)

And to clarify, i am not scumreading him for not being here (although what he has posted has been pretty banal) just wish he was.

[borkjerfkin]

can you walk me through it in more depth?

the way he reached out to me specifically as if i was in danger of dissecting the issue too much before people talked about it fully. I don't think scum would have cared if i did that.

I don't feel that 71 feels like a backpedal because people didn't like him jumping on the wagon, it feels like an earnest mindset.

I don't know how to better explain it. A lot of people seem to want to shoot down this townread without doing anything other than replace it with nothing substantial.

[borkjerfkin]

Wouldn't mind lynching shadow-step at the moment

Why? You'd advocate a PL 2 days into d1?

You are most certainly not commenting on anything but the lowest hanging "bad theory" fruit

[borkjerfkin]

second, Charl is town. I don't think 87 comes from scum, and beyond that I'm fine with his posts in general. I pretty obviously disagree with notty's read here; ideally I'd let him handle it himself, but if he continues not to be here poke me again and I can talk more about it.

I think you should talk more about it; 87 is, by his own admission, not a legitimate claim. Why is this a slam dunk town post for you?

[borkjerfkin]

I generally agree that his posts aren't scummy, and that his opening was either a legitimate reaction test or him feigning a reaction test, but I don't know if I see why the way he did it is more likely the former than the latter. can you walk me through it in more depth?

I'm not a huge fan of the "I don't think his posts are scummy" followed by this "let's dissect this townread because I think it should be null" -- especially since it's the main thing you reached out to me about; the only reason that should be your highest priority here is if my worldview on syr really clashed with yours (it doesn't), or if it were an attempt to read

me

(it doesn't seem to be)

Whereas I think at least one head of TOB does think Syr is scum and is challenging me because of that

[borkjerfkin]

2. try to interact with you to hopefully firm up my read on you some.

Ok.
I'm really not

that

hard to read despite you having that one bad experience.
Unless you're AngryPidgeon; dude fucking sucks at reading me.

[borkjerfkin]

I don't agree with this. I think he'd be more than aware that he couldn't just make up a "reaction test" without following through and actually treating it like one.

I don't think scum faking a reaction test would have been savvy enough to realize that I was in the process of ruining it and get indignant about it.

If you think I'm not giving scum!syr enough credit then so be it. I find that I'm not really interested in defending this read to the death right now; a lot of it is a gutshot and I have nothing other than what I have presented.

[borkjerfkin]

I was actually really surprised in forest fire that you were so jaded by tales of you re: my alignment.
I think I said as much at the time.

[borkjerfkin]

I don't think scum faking a reaction test would have been savvy enough to realize that I was in the process of ruining it and get indignant about it.

Eh maybe I'm confbiasing with this I'm not even sure I believe that.

I have a gut read based on what I perceive to be a real thought process.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm not sure I really understand it.

[borkjerfkin]

Nevermind, reread it and I think I do.

This is less about the read (I think he's town) and more about figuring out where your head is. Ok.

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE: this seems like a decent spot to start to reevaluate.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm ok with that.

[borkjerfkin]

do you disagree with what I wrote in the last paragraph of 151?

Eh rereading it I still kinda think your level of certainty is off; it's a really, really minor point to me.

[borkjerfkin]

Like you don't take some yahoo going "I'm a bulletproof miller vig" as a joke and call them town.

I don't see how this is not a variant of that.

[borkjerfkin]

first things first, I don't think bork is scum. I could easily be wrong on this since I have misread him very badly in the past, but in general I think the most apparent tell with him is that when he's scum a lot of his posts and reads are just really flat and going-through-the-motions and I don't see that here (the read on Syr falls in pretty direct contrast to it). I also think that most of the more subtle things he's posting about are pretty reasonable, i.e. 120 about Dunn. I will likely revisit this if I have reason to question it later.

I keep coming back to this and I really wish I had something more contemporary to compare to than viscon: crossroads with a me-town you-scum arrangement re: how scum you would open against me.

Wish we didn't have 3 slots burning a hole in the game.

TOB is the only read I really wanna take to the bank right now.

[borkjerfkin]

TOB's push on Syr is terrible, but I am not sure that it is terrible in a scummy way. I want an explanation for their town read on OA, though.

I don't have any town read on Dunn; I don't have any issues with the bulk of his push on us (save potentially the post bork pointed out), but it's nowhere near unfakeable.

AJ's 128 is really underwhelming and since notty seems to be gone/not have a vote down I'm going ahead and voting here.

Yeah ultimately I think this is all just kind of a bunch of "hey look I'm scumhunting" when actually it's not saying anything useful or attempting to get past the fact that it doesn't draw any salient conclusions.

VOTE: Seiko x Naomi

[borkjerfkin]

No.

I swear it'll be obvious that I'm town here like it usually is if you give me enough time to actually get into the game.

This is what I want. Do that. Or have NS do it.

[borkjerfkin]

((Regardless of what happens in this game, you are a wonderful person and I hold you in the highest regard))

I cannot promise that I won't fuck up -- that's not fair to me -- I can promise that I will do my best not to.

As it currently stands I'm not really seeing any parallels between here and that game.

[borkjerfkin]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=62186
if anyone cares, I am part of Gold Saucer hydra

[borkjerfkin]

I don't play often.

[borkjerfkin]

Again the hydra reaffirms it. I don't see how you read what transpired as anything but an RVS wagon, which normally gets a hell of a lot closer to lynch before disbanding anyways. Granted the reasoning (Dunn didn't vote after calling someone out) wasn't put down in thread yet, but it isn't hard to see that the wagon on Char was already done. That and the fact that this read has persisted needlessly since then is what doesn't sit well with me.

Are you talking to me or tob here?

P-edit: trying to figure that out.

[borkjerfkin]

He did call my post "odd" so i can see why pie might've took it that way (although i find it odd that he would attack the person who they disagree with about a read as a first line of questioning, as whether or not i am wrong is not pertinent to my alignment, only whether i am straining the bounds of credulity with what i am saying)

Also the quotes from TOB aj linked were posted by three different people. I would not expect completely congruous thoughts there.

[borkjerfkin]

he seems to be explicitly implying he thinks bork is scum for it ("doesn't sit well with me"). if I'm wrong, he can correct me.

i am not sure he is talking to me here

[borkjerfkin]

Like nothing else in that last paragraph makes sense in context if he is talking to me

[borkjerfkin]

And if he is talking to me i have no idea what he is trying to say

[borkjerfkin]

I'm more or less asking what about their posts made you think TOB is town, since those posts gave me the opposite impression. And no, I'm not 'suspecting bork'.

sorry i never got around to this:

I liked 45 and 48 as proactive posts to eschew rvs. I think the bubbles head is a little pants on head in general and in the first part of 57, but I think the gist of the second paragraph is that they're saying syr was making a vote and trying to rationalize it after getting pushed on it instead of actually having a reason which I find a legitimate angle of attack.

Also more relevant than any of that is I believe 91 and that their role is potentially anti-town if not claimed as they did. If they're scum they're giving up a potential advantage by doing that, and I think it would have been perfectly believable for them to just have said it never occurred to them to claim.

Instead we got 91. Town makes 91.

[borkjerfkin]

About the flavor mass claim thing, I don't have any idea about the flavor so I wouldn't be able to deduce shit.
What I'd like to discuss though, is that I was the first player who signed up for the game and you'd think that I'd get my first choice character. But I didn't which was weird. Did the same thing happen to anyone else?

I got my first choice but I think I probably picked a less popular character

[borkjerfkin]

After reading the posts exactly above this, I'm even more convinced Syryana whatever their stupid name is, is scum.
Those claims are quite clearly not serious.

TOB's was serious as far as I can tell.

Either way I agree this is the one thing from Syr I probably don't like - instead of analyzing the claims or writing them off as jokes he just goes into "generic well behaved townie mode" to denounce them.

Because there is really nothing to fear from TOB's claim here.

[borkjerfkin]

I doubt that the order in which we sent our picks was relevant -- I've never seen a upick work like that. Not sure how this is gonna help us find scum, though.

I don't think 64 is scummy. Clearly the gamestate had changed between then and when they initially voted Charloux.

[borkjerfkin]

I doubt that the order in which we sent our picks was relevant

Meaning who submitted before whom, not what order our lists were in

[borkjerfkin]

I don't really get any scumvibes from AJ thus far

[borkjerfkin]

I also still think the post reads like a scum post tonally, but probably not as relevant of a point.

I need this elaborated on

[borkjerfkin]

Like aj isnt using that policy lynch point as a vehicle to further any agenda unless its an AJ/S_S team.

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:

[borkjerfkin]

I think I'm at my usual day 1 "I don't know what the fuck I'm doing" phase; 224 and 225 really rang my bell.

I need to reread but mostly the non participants need to start posting more.

I don't have any issues w/ S_S either from last page.

[borkjerfkin]

Also there's a post somewhere about you liking S_S I think, talk to me about S_S?

I just said I didn't find him scummy. It's on this page.

I don't really have much else to say about him yet.

[borkjerfkin]

Is there anybody you DO feel is explicitly town or scum? Or are even leaning in that direction? (also fyi Seiko is Notty and Pie, not penguin)

possible negative association between AJ/Seiko here

[borkjerfkin]

They're not scum/scum.

[borkjerfkin]

I don't think AJ would mistake one of the heads of his scumbuddy for someone that isn't in the game if they had pregame chat.

If you think Seiko is town anyway then this isn't really worth arguing about

[borkjerfkin]

Nothing. I never made that claim.

[borkjerfkin]

Kind of awkward

And I can't tell what posts are from pieguy and what from notscience, but it seems like they're all pieguy? (Correct me if I'm wrong)

I've got a theory that the more lopsided a hydra's posting habits, the more likely they are to be scum

not in play here; ns has been inactive for 6 months and i think probably signed up for this game under duress (aka pie asked and liked the playerlist but couldn't find the time)

[borkjerfkin]

Dunn/Bork are my 'explicit' town reads. IDK S_S well enough to have a read, but I'm comfortable with what he's said thus far.

He's expressed a scumread on you that I feel like hypothetical-town-you should think is a misrep of both your position and your lack of a follow-up (212)

Why are you comfortable with that?

[borkjerfkin]

In fact you followed up in 214 asking about it, as far as I can tell he never answered you, and you're comfortable with the slot in 237

??????

[borkjerfkin]

As it stands I think if either of AJ/S_S flipped scum I'd probably be really comfortable going after the other one; their interactions definitely do NOT preclude them from being a team.

AJ for his unexplainable lack of anything but the most superficial engagement on S_S's suspicion of him and then dropping it.
S_S for in turn scumreading AJ but going after Syr.

I also pointed out 143, which as I said earlier would make a scumflip from S_S more damning of AJ.

I don't have a huge scumread on AJ outside of everything I just posted but I'm not really at a point where I know what else to pursue and I have double the posts of the next highest person so me posting more isn't going to positively affect the cadence of the game

VOTE: AJ

Also replace obvious_alt TIA.

[borkjerfkin]

S_S for in turn scumreading AJ but going after Syr.

This is definitely a reason to go after AJ and not S_S today; if AJ is town this says fuckall about S_S.

[borkjerfkin]

Because arguing over verbiage isn't my thing. "Why is it a PL?" "Because it is. He hasn't posted." That's literally the only helpful thing that can ever come from that conversation, so why bother engaging in it? Honestly, having no answer is completely fine here because this line of discussion is a waste of time.

"Why bother engaging in it" indeed:
Why ask about it at all if you didn't care about the answer?

Besides, you asked why it

wasn't

a PL, as that's the stance those two were taking, which implies they'd have answered with why they thought what S_S had posted up to that point

was

alignment indicative. "He hasn't posted" isn't something they'd have answered with and that should be obvious

[borkjerfkin]

What were you trying to accomplish in 214 if it's not illustrating that you think S_S is being disingenuous about the question or attempting to engage him on it (as you didn't care about the answer)

[borkjerfkin]

You're also aware that he

had

posted before then, right? Just not very much.

[borkjerfkin]

S_S had 3 posts when Dunn made 147

[borkjerfkin]

but maybe that clears some stuff up

UNVOTE:

I'll think about it.

[borkjerfkin]

I believe that AJ legitimately missed S_S' posts up until then.

Not sure that makes him town, but we were definitely talking past each other.

[borkjerfkin]

No, but it makes the discussion about whether or not it's a policy lynch something besides semantics, no?

[borkjerfkin]

I don't care to have a "what is a policy lynch" discussion, no.

I'm explaining what was going through my head when I condemned your dismissing of Dunn wanting to lynch S_S as not worth talking about at the time.

[borkjerfkin]

Like it makes a lot more sense if you thought he'd literally posted nothing instead of just posted things that were worthless in your opinion. The latter is worth talking about with Dunn or S_S, the former is not.

[borkjerfkin]

On the bright side, Dunn is town. This is like the first time I actually believe it too, but his actions around it show actual suspicion, something I don't see in scum games of his.

Since you did bring up why you think Dunn is "being stupid instead of scummy": talk to me about your town read here because I feel like you decided really definitively on this early with only the vaguest of explanations.

And since you brought up meta I need to see the counterexamples you used to get to this.

[borkjerfkin]

Jesus. You'd think I've played this game enough to not buddy a partner in such a stupid way.

This might be a perspective slip. Town really has no reason to say this, I would just be wrong because he is town

[borkjerfkin]

EDIT: Player has returned and may resume posting.

Youve gotta be kidding me

2 posts in goddamn however long even though theyve gone over double prod length without posting and they get to stay

[borkjerfkin]

Jesus. You'd think I've played this game enough to not buddy a partner in such a stupid way.

This might be a perspective slip. Town really has no reason to say this, I would just be wrong because he is town

i thought about this overnight and dont feel as strongly about it

[borkjerfkin]

Wait

he posted in scum pt lolololol

Replied to prod pm? That is what i would have done

[borkjerfkin]

Actually id have just fucking posted in the thread

[borkjerfkin]

If the mod is counting "posting in any thread" as activity then you have a point

Dont know how to verify

[borkjerfkin]

This game becomes way the fuck different if sir lurksalot is scum

VOTE: obvious alt

[borkjerfkin]

Oh hi there

[borkjerfkin]

My bad on gender.

UNVOTE:

Waiting with baited breath

[borkjerfkin]

Ok

[borkjerfkin]

well, as a start I'd like her maybe make more than an average of 4 posts per game day

Since you're here:
What are your reads now
What made you vote AJ?

[borkjerfkin]

Gonna wait till obvious alt catches up to focus on this any more.

[borkjerfkin]

We're pretty aligned (I have Charloux more town)

In fact everyone has about the same reads with themselves plucked out of the list.
Not sure if I should be alarmed about that, but if I'm wrong one scum is probably getting away with buddying their partner

no one wants to lynch in (me, TOB, dunn)
next tier is around (char, seiko)
lynchables seem to be (you, S_S, AJ, OA)

You're interesting in that you're probably the one slot that actually has polarized opinions from people.

[borkjerfkin]

I will be around ~30

[borkjerfkin]

notty holla

[borkjerfkin]

I think AJ is just manufacturing reasons to SR Ob Alt, he's on l-2 and thinks that he needs to make a counter wagon and Ob Alt looks the best bet right now.

this had a occurred to me too

[borkjerfkin]

As for my reads, screw off. My reads are my own, you don't get to dictate what's good or bad about them. I've played with Syryana before, this looks like his Towngame. Same with Shadow, in reverse. I've played with both pie and NS before, but it's been a while, and I don't get a strong read off of them yet. They're playing things close to the chest. Post quantity =! quality, and it =! a read.

have you played w/ me before?

also were you gonna circle back to your very first post about flavor claiming?

[borkjerfkin]

I'd say SxN is a bit polarizing too. Like their post 184 felt stupid as hell for taking my post as an attack on Bork. Like 224 they come out and say "this is what town-aj would do" but neither one of them has played with me as town in over 2 years. Which is why that post just feels all around awful to me. And the icing to me is:

sorry after 323 that ship has sailed

[borkjerfkin]

seemed like a pretty obvious misunderstanding to me

[borkjerfkin]

(talking about 184)

[borkjerfkin]

and 224 isn't meta, i don't know why you're trying to make it meta.

they're saying 'this is what town would do', not 'this is what you specifically as town would do'

[borkjerfkin]

227 is also not meta

[borkjerfkin]

like i realizes he says 'town-AJ' but that's just saying you, in that position, as a town player, would have done, not that they have reason to believe you would because you're you and not someone else

[borkjerfkin]

the three posts were:
1) You answering notty about TOB in 192
2) You asking a question you later admitted you didn't care about at all 214
3) 218 which the first paragraph is not about anything but game mechanics and the second is talking to me about TOB again

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: AJ (L-1)

reads right now:
town:
seiko (ns showed up)
charloux
TOB (notty i'm willing to engage on this but you've got a lot of convincing to do, I think you're seeing orchestration that isn't there and bubbles just likes to be really dramatic and silly)

maybe town:
S_S (there's a somewhat honest undertone that I am detecting in stuff like 330
OA(no real issues with the catch up, just not enough there yet, would like to see her angle on why I am worth a burden of proficiency paranoia moment but someone like syr isn't - working on that),
syr (really just don't have a very good handle on this slot, nothing reads overtly scummy; i liked his early game even if everyone else didn't; is following me around awfully close though)

rest:
AJ
Dunn (admit this is a pocket read based off a reread, and could change if his vote-power (?) is pro-town in an obvious way, but my read here has really deteriorated; he is now not engaging anyone with any kind of frankness and is being really choosy about what he decides to respond to, which to me is warning of scum who has found himself in a comfortable early game global tier-2 town read and doesn't want any boat rocking. Compare to Charloux who hasn't really altered his posting style at all over the course of the game)

p-edit:

AJ also continues to focus almost entirely exclusively on his TOB read

This is pretty much what you did. You posted about either TOB or irrelevant shit.

[borkjerfkin]

my 2nd was sylvanas but I got my first

[borkjerfkin]

some weird shit is going on.

[borkjerfkin]

ok.

[borkjerfkin]

found himself in a comfortable early game global tier-2 town read

It was suggested earlier that I could be a gladiator and I never said anything to it (I'm not though)
Do you think this is potentially interesting for these reads on me?

I am not sure that understand the question; are people townreading you for your soft? probably - as syr/I even pointed out it explained your early game behavior a little.

[borkjerfkin]

I have my own ideas about the CW but Imma let Syr have a little stage time

[borkjerfkin]

oh

that didn't really occur to me tbh, but it's not a bad point

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:

I'm willing to hear some people out, it's fucking sad/interesting that I had to put someone at L-1 for all this to go down.

[borkjerfkin]

So unless you're calling Dunn scum here, what you're just saying is OA's vote is bad. If there was going to be a scum counterpush to me here, wouldn't that happen BEFORE bork votes, not after?

what point are you trying to make here?

[borkjerfkin]

Is this a scum-driven counterwagon to AJ? If so, which is the partner? Is Dunn the ballsiest partner ever? Is OA the laziest partner ever?"

or is it a CW from a wagon on town to a wagon on town to set up false associatives. This is the sort of shit i did to fool Sakura in EoSD.

the point isn't necessarily the alignments of the people being wagoned, but the impetus for pushing their scumreads now and not before -- that impetus being a change in the gamestate regarding someone they're not voting (me) -- meaning agendas, instead of something their scumread did to change the read -- which would mean scumhunting.

I doubt it's Dunn/OA, but neither looks really good from this. I did beetlejuice Dunn which does explain why he acted when he did, but still

[borkjerfkin]

EoSD

man that was a great fucking game

[borkjerfkin]

this all looks a bit "let me fit this evidence to the conclusion I already came up with"

[borkjerfkin]

I think you guys are likely to be town, bork is towny, and had good feelings about syryana

seiko pretty scummy, aj slightly scummy

charloux idk

obvious alt is flaking

well i bring it up because here is your only mention of aj before you decided so vehemently that he was the wrong lynch

don't get me wrong, you're living to D2 as I see you're doing a thing; I just don't get it

[borkjerfkin]

I'm rereading.

I don't really want to lynch Dunn today; scrutinize him Day 2.

[borkjerfkin]

Also I have no idea about the flavor so I assumed like in most games with flavor there are some characters who are evil and are more likely to be scum, like team rocket in a Pokemon game. Which is why I said what I said about the mass claiming thing. If mafia have such characters who are considered to be evil then they might have fake claims, no?

I think this is scum shadow_step slipping because he does have fake claims for whatever reason... as town there's no reason to think like this; because

Shadow sent in his picks himself

.

meh. he's starting with a very obviously misguided mindset (OP states flavor is independent of alignment, standard U-pick shit, he obviously is assuming otherwise), which is proof of nothing other than he's not really being very analytical. If scum don't have fakeclaims, and I have no reason to see why they would (as you yourself admit too) then this isn't a scumslip

[borkjerfkin]

rereading AJ's body of work in ISO is giving me very cold feet on that lynch

[borkjerfkin]

Who are you considering?

OA, SS, still not entirely certain on syr

[borkjerfkin]

I don't have some super amazing power that's going to keep me from being lynched; but you also shouldn't have a reason to keep saying this.

I claimed because people found me not voting suspicious when it really shouldn't have been

was responding to SS telling me to vote you

[borkjerfkin]

What about the rest of his play?

I don't mind his syr push or AJ pushes

It's possible he saw a tactical opening to push you in my 348

still feeling that out

[borkjerfkin]

Also I would bet the farm on Seiko being town at this point if that's relevant to you

[borkjerfkin]

I gathered, but I've never misread NS. Not once.

But that brash tone and detailed analysis in 323 and 374

scum ns posts either like a frightened rabbit or not at all, and he had the perfect excuse here

[borkjerfkin]

i felt it was a plausible reaction to your defending him somewhat out of the blue

[borkjerfkin]

It's simpler than that, he voted me because I voted him

I'm not really one to say OMGUS in a vacuum = scum

[borkjerfkin]

how do you feel about OA

[borkjerfkin]

My huge issue is I really, really need more data points from both SS and OA

[borkjerfkin]

gutshotting in 2-3 RL days in is fine; we have fewer than 5 left now and i'm like

one thing about mafia that frustrates me is how certain everyone around me always feels

[borkjerfkin]

Im awake a little longer

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: Shadowstep

dunnstral's posts are good! But seiko's are not, so I won't vote with them.

ANYWAY, I think what Dunn said about shadowstep scumslipping was good! Shadow must be trying to cover up thefact that he is scum!!!

Thanks Dunstrall!!!

Seiko, I will lynch you next!

- Bubbles

i do not fucking get you

[borkjerfkin]

I'd like to go through his posts with you and talk about what I'm seeing/why you think his body of work looks town and whether I'm wrong to think this.

that's a big topic for 1AM; tomorrow?

[borkjerfkin]

i wish this game had more people interested in being clear and concise and playing the game and less trying to keep themselves hidden / obviously putting a behavioral filter on their posts because ????

that's really helping me play the game thanks OA and TOB

[borkjerfkin]

I'd like to go through his posts with you and talk about what I'm seeing/why you think his body of work looks town and whether I'm wrong to think this.

and for the record considering i've vacillated between voting / unvoting him for the past few days I'm not the best person to give a ringing endorsement regardless of where my head is currently at

[borkjerfkin]

fwiw I don't have any problem with it, even though I'm curious to know why (and Dunn's posts are anything but good).

I don't know that I have a problem with it or it's scummy or whatever, it's just intentionally vague and awkward sounding for no reason and it's getting to the point where it's not cute or funny and is obfuscating my understanding of what the fuck they're on about

[borkjerfkin]

i guess overall maybe if we had more people willing to act like goddamn human beings and engage in natural dialog and i didn't have double the posts of the next person i might be able to poe the game more than i currently can

shruggerino

[borkjerfkin]

like every time i think my reads are coalescing someone drops an unexplained/underexplained/badly explained vote and i have to go back and read them off unflipped interactions because i have very little else to go on

[borkjerfkin]

this is probably going to have to come down to me bloccing with you; there are too many slots i am waffling on

I mean to be fair I've engaged in plenty of natural dialogue with you and you still haven't figured out I'm town.

this did help, fwiw

[borkjerfkin]

dunn/tob if you're town ffs please fucking listen to me about seiko

[borkjerfkin]

i won't vote charloux, nothing he's said has looked to have any agenda behind it and he he's a low info lynch outside of that anyway. his recent stuff looks like bored town. if the worst you can say about him is that he's lurking, i don't really see where you're coming from

i couldn't really find much from any game of dunn's that looked anything like his play here.

i don't really want to vote shadow, he's not spooging town all over my face but his wagon is indeed fucking ass (but there's for sure town on it -- i'd love to know who, i think it would help my gamesense)

[borkjerfkin]

would definitely vote OA over him. Maybe even TOB.

[borkjerfkin]

TOB is annoying the shit out of me.

I felt really good about that read early game though.

[borkjerfkin]

can only your head post for the rest of the game? TIA

[borkjerfkin]

I didn't like this, so we're moving our vote here.

VOTE: Syryana

ugh why do you not like that though

[borkjerfkin]

notty i still think you're wrong on tob

[borkjerfkin]

Bubbles can be a little exuberant in a way that throws people off, but that's just how she is.

the exuberance sounds fake enough that it feels it was made to sound fake is all; hence why i asked about the 'schtick'

[borkjerfkin]

I didn't like this, so we're moving our vote here.

VOTE: Syryana

ugh why do you not like that though

eh, fine. overall i am seriously still paranoid of syryana, although this post didn't increase it.

notty/pie are you guys both super sure on him?

[borkjerfkin]

I don't think Syryana has done enough to make them believe that you should townread them and be annoyed that you aren't.

it's possible you're right; i usually just attribute this to my missing hints i shouldn't have missed; nacho says this kind of shit to me all the time when he's town

ns/pie we definitely need to sort this

[borkjerfkin]

I think that one head is trying to assert chaos=town while the other head plays chaotically and attempts to portray bad town.

that seems a huuuuuuge reach that they thought they'd get towncred for that, esp since it was a point they themselves made

[borkjerfkin]

Things I don't like about TOB:

Their first non-sheep vote (outside of RVS) comes after I call them out on having predominantly sheep votes.

I think that one head is trying to assert chaos=town while the other head plays chaotically and attempts to portray bad town.

The OMGUS on me was laughable at best.

They did not claim anti-town roles in their first post. I refuse to believe NONE of them knew how to behave with an anti-town role. I understand that there are several different methods for which to use anti-town roles but I can't think of a single one that delays a claim just to claim before scum can be tricked into killing them/whatever. If anything their claim sounds like they are just scared of being targeted.

So no.

in fact i really don't think any of these things are scummy

[borkjerfkin]

sheeping isn't scummy; i don't think they were trying to appease you there.

OMGUS is both a buzzword and again, not necessarily scum motivated. unless you claim to understand what the bubbles head was on about, i don't know why you can call that scummy

who cares if it was in their first post when they claimed? it was on Day 1 and wasn't under duress; it might as well have been their first post

[borkjerfkin]

Would you, as scum, try to take on me and pie? Would you draw that much attention to yourself from us in the early game?

would I? I have to admit probably not. I did it in one of the touhou upick games and it went pretty badly.

But I'm not syr. I'm the guy who never gets fucking mislynched as town because my town game is that obviously different from my scumgame and I pee my pants when I roll scum against tons of slots that know me.

I'm not sure syr is that person. I agree on the reaction test.

[borkjerfkin]

besides he did have my shadow to hide in when he voted you, as I was also voting you at the time.

[borkjerfkin]

you're both right and wrong:

VOTE: Seiko x Naomi

You alive ns?

Also consider my vote serious now because why the fuck not

TOB's push on Syr is terrible, but I am not sure that it is terrible in a scummy way. I want an explanation for their town read on OA, though.

I don't have any town read on Dunn; I don't have any issues with the bulk of his push on us (save potentially the post bork pointed out), but it's nowhere near unfakeable.

AJ's 128 is really underwhelming and since notty seems to be gone/not have a vote down I'm going ahead and voting here.

Yeah ultimately I think this is all just kind of a bunch of "hey look I'm scumhunting" when actually it's not saying anything useful or attempting to get past the fact that it doesn't draw any salient conclusions.

VOTE: Seiko x Naomi

i got off later when my read change, but syr actually followed me around like a puppy on your slot pretty much the whole time

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:

instead of analyzing the claims or writing them off as jokes he just goes into "generic well behaved townie mode" to denounce them.

I was pissy and started yelling before thinking.

I don't really get any scumvibes from AJ thus far

He's making me suspicious, but I'd rather not elaborate on the why right now

Also there's a post somewhere about you liking S_S I think, talk to me about S_S?

1. "so I find this post a bit odd on re-read" is a very, very, very, very weak way of stating that he feels TOB is scum/that he disagrees with your read. I think regardless of how he does it, town-him would come straight up and say something along the lines of "I disagree with bork's read" or "I don't like how they handled the Charl wagon", aka anything where he takes a firm stance either way on it. the way he did it doesn't feel like he's trying to make any wave in the game, it's really reminiscent of the kinds of posts I see scum making when they want to interject themselves into the conversation in a way that looks natural and doesn't draw too much attention onto themselves.

Piegirl <3

I'm not going to take a stance on the wagon unless I explicitly feel you're town or scum.

Is there anybody you DO feel is explicitly town or scum? Or are even leaning in that direction? (also fyi Seiko is Notty and Pie, not penguin)

UNVOTE:

they're not suspicious. they're town.

[borkjerfkin]

fuck ignore that quote wall

[borkjerfkin]

was trying to show syr's voting patterns, they're pretty much an echo of mine for a while

[borkjerfkin]

I can't parse what you're trying to say there

say

about

you when you're scum?

[borkjerfkin]

this good

this good meaning what?

[borkjerfkin]

like there is one person in this game that is obvtown to the point of unlynchability and it isn't you

p-edit: you realize i've probably played with you less than 5 times ever?

p-p-edit: all @syr

[borkjerfkin]

I can't parse what you're trying to say there

say

about

you when you're scum?

I'll just quote for you.

Stuff like:

continue to see you [Dunn] mindmelding with me as I catch up.

i only bring up syr doing that because notty was talking about scum being afraid to go after them and i said that it may have looked a lot less daunting with me in their corner. otherwise i think that kind of behavior is context specific

[borkjerfkin]

Pedit2: played, modded, followed games I've been in, my scumgame sucks and I overjustify literally everything or just lurk to death

my point is it's rare that i've really had to read you.

only recent example i can think of was wedding invitational and we all know how that went

[borkjerfkin]

also i can't think of a game i've played with you when you were scum

[borkjerfkin]

i'm on seiko in a non RVS state when you vote in 125. there's a VC right below you. I went off and back in that time.

p-edit: that's probably good enough for D1.

fuck pissity shit balls this game

[borkjerfkin]

i have seriously never had so many alternations in perspective on a single game day before

[borkjerfkin]

kinda wanna vote dunn now

I really hate that 348 happened and all the sudden dunn starts tryharding again

[borkjerfkin]

i also need to entertain the idea that they're just right on shadow step

fuckity crap poop

p-edit: meh he's always around

[borkjerfkin]

me? i'm not, he's just not really active. it's in the back of my mind

[borkjerfkin]

Also, you seem oblivious to Shadow, handwaving his play with "omgus doesn't mean scum"

TOB OMGUS'd per notsci, do you think they're scum?

[borkjerfkin]

not what i'm saying; i'm not bringing it up constantly because what's there is there and the body of work is small. I haven't called him town once this game.

[borkjerfkin]

then be more clear about what you mean. at one point you brought up "he voted me because I voted him"

What about the rest of his play?

I don't mind his syr push or AJ pushes

It's possible he saw a tactical opening to push you in my 348

still feeling that out

It's simpler than that, he voted me because I voted him

was that not intended to imply that you didn't like that action?

[borkjerfkin]

i guess it was just a response to me

[borkjerfkin]

My problem is that's all you focused on for some reason

I don't feel that's what I did. If that's how you felt I conveyed it then I apologize.

Ok, let's assume he's scum, who are you considering for his partner if you can go with my read on Seiko because I feel better about that than anything.

If you think OA is town (you said at least you didn't want to lynch them) and if you're town then I have a read very wrong somewhere

[borkjerfkin]

this is transparently not trying to convince you you're wrong, i'm just worried that my overall impression of things is topsy turvy

[borkjerfkin]

I really hate that 348 happened and all the sudden dunn starts tryharding again

Ugh, can you not? My change in activity wasn't related to that

Aj got to l-1 in that post, which gave me plenty of incentive to speak up against the lynch

Plus, the rest of the game as a whole was less active before then

mainly the tone in this post feels town

[borkjerfkin]

i realize i'm probably being a huge pain in the ass

[borkjerfkin]

this might be the right move after all

VOTE: shadow_step (L-1)

i don't have any real examples of townfeels here, which is more than I can say about a lot of other slots.

I really don't like OA either and could go there; I kinda just want to see what happens now.

I think both Dunn and Syr have appeased me atm

[borkjerfkin]

sorry i'm just kind of exhausted w/ the game day and i don't have strong feels about a whole hell of a lot

[borkjerfkin]

did you talk to notty about it? seems you two don't agree still?

And yeah, write the post; i'm considering everything. Probably more than is healthy.

[borkjerfkin]

a lot to process here. i'm gonna watch some HOTS and i'll have hopefully a decent parse & response tomm morning

[borkjerfkin]

Obvious Alt  Jan 12, 01:29pm  Jan 20, 12:51pm  
3 days 3 hours
  11

plz

[borkjerfkin]

dammit pie i think you're right.

[borkjerfkin]

and now i'm changing my mind again.

I get that he's not pushing your slot and you think he should be, but he's pushing another slot that he finds scummier.