Shaziro's Mini Normal Review

[mhsmith0]

Very much agreed. Neighbor isn't an actual PR, which means that it's two town PRs (one gated) against a Roleblocker, a strongman and a traitor. Town would have to make FULL use of the PT, AND avoid scum killing/blocking cop, to have a realistic chance.

[mhsmith0]

Rule of thumb: town always needs at least three at least slightly useful/claimable power roles in a 10v3. Traitor MAYBE lessens the burden a bit, but I'd be super hesitant to allow a 2 pr setup against traitor goon goon, and def. not against traitor Roleblocker strongman.

[mhsmith0]

Scumsided. Cop and 2-shot doc not near enough town power given setup, and neighbors are very low utility.

[mhsmith0]

Like, neighbor claim would NEVER save someone from a lynch, while cop, doc, Roleblocker, tracker, bulletproof. Etc etc all might. The setup as envisioned seems to presume cop will share results in the hood, but that requires a super high level of trust to work early game, and even with that scum has two pr abilities that can wreck the cop.

[mhsmith0]

From another review thread (game completed now)

FWIW, 10v3 mini normal games with roleblockers have as a whole been pretty balanced, around 50% town win rate

Spoiler:

1794 town win
doc, gunslinger, cop
vs rb, encryptor, goon

1772 town win
doc, roleblocker, macho tracker
vs rb, goon, goon

1719 scum win
1-shot BP, mason, mason, doc
vs rb, goon, goon (very different game here, town power was mainly passive)

1715 town win
doc, cop, role cop, jailkeeper
vs rb, godfather, goon

1709 scum win
1-shot gunsmith, JOAT, role cop, doctor
vs rb, watcher, goon

1666 scum win
tracker, 1-shot BP, cop, 1-shot vig neighbor, vanilla neighbor
vs rb, godfather, neighbor

1662 town win
tracker, vig, doc
vs rb, goon, goon

1653 scum win
doc, cop, 1-shot vig
vs rb, goon, goon

1596 scum win
miller, doc, cop
vs rb, goon, goon

1527 town win
bodyguard, cop, 2-shot vig
vs rb, goon, goon

1514 town win
even night vig, cowardly gunsmith, cop, odd night vig
vs rb, godfather, goon

etc

In general, against a roleblocker, town has had at least one really strong power role, or multiple passives (like 1719). The JOAT isn't strong enough, and tracker is a middling town power in a 13p game.

A cop with a gated doc is not as powerful as you might think; cop can be hit early, doc can blow shots early, etc.

Could MAYBE see my way to something like
Cop neighbor
One shot bp neighbor
Neighbor
Doctor (ungated)
6 vts

Vs
Roleblocker
One shot strongman
Traitor

Would still suspect this to be scumsided, but that I'd at least think about

[mhsmith0]

Incidentally, I'll try and look up common mini normal traitor setups so there's a decent comparison basis on that end too.

[mhsmith0]

Spoiler: Traitor games

1814 scum win
non-consecutive jk, JOAT (voyeur, bodyguard, neapolitan), weak doctor, 2-shot commuter
vs
traitor encryptor, goon, goon

1791 (ran as open, excluded from analysis)

1762 town win
3-shot jk, gunsmith, 1-shot vig
vs
traitor, goon, goon

1740 town win
neapolitan, neighborizer, roleblocker, nurse
vs triator, jailkeeper, goon

1585 scum win
tracker, jailkeeper, bodyguard
vs traitor, goon, strongman

1543 scum win
doctor, even night compulsive vig, neighbor, neighbor, neighbor
vs
traitor, JOAT, nurse

1486 town win
1-shot cop, cultwatch admin (idk what this meant), even night jk, IC
vs
traitor, goon, role cop

1483 town win
tracker, 1-shot vig, gunsmith
vs
1-shot ninja, goon, traitor

1402 scum win
bodyguard, tracker, JOAT
vs
traitor role cop, goon, encryptor

1401 town win
odd night vig, 2x masons, JOAT
vs
traitor, 1-shot BP, goon

Overall results have been around balanced, but in general town has had MUCH more power than we see here and/or scum had MUCH less power. neighbor isn't an actual power, so it's essentially
cop, 2-shot doc
vs
roleblocker, 1-shot strongman, traitor

that's never a balanced setup (or honestly even particularly close) by mini normal standards. conceptually, 1762 is kind of close to this, if you completely remove scum power (and turning doc into jailkeeper, which strengthens the role while removing some of the cop/doc coordination issues, is I think a fine approach, though you'd still need a 3rd PR, even if it was something small). There are also ways you can balance it by adding substantially more town power in lieu of docking scum power, but it really depends on how you want the game to be. But as proposed, it's simply not acceptable balance-wise.

[mhsmith0]

I do agree that it's appropriate to spell out traitor in more detail. If it's helpful, here's what I sent to a traitor in the large normal I ran recently (game now over)

Welcome to Large Normal 200! You are a treacherous

Blue Mafia One-Shot Bulletproof Traitor

!

Abilities

You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to confuse town and distort truth.

You may NOT communicate with your

{REDACTED}

at any time. Your identity is unknown by your

{REDACTED}

. I have created a private topic here for your personal use. You may use this topic at any time, day or night.

In addition, you have a 1-shot bulletproof vest. Due to this ability, the first time you are shot, you will survive the attempt. You will not be informed when this happens.

As a traitor, you cannot be directly recruited by any means, and if you are the last surviving member of your team, you will be automatically endgamed.

Win Condition:
You win when all other factions have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment

[mhsmith0]

Cop
Doc

Vs
Roleblocker
1-shot strongman
Traitor

It's getting closer, but I don't see why scum need the strongman if they already are the Roleblocker, and town needs an additional power role even if it's something crap like fruit vendor or bodyguard.

I'd be closer to ok with
Town
Cop
Doc
Fruit vendor or bodyguard
However you want to do neighbors

Scum
Roleblocker
Goon
Traitor

(I still want to mull over how much traitor swings it, it's possible I'm underestimating the issues w a traitor here)

Roleblocker is super strong, as is the cop and doc combo, which means that the game will almost inevitably be really swingy.

[mhsmith0]

You could also nerf the cop to something like odd night, make it full doc, add in something kinda ok like maybe a even night tracker or the like, and turn scum into one shot each of Roleblocker and strongman, which reduces the power of any individual role and therefore reduces swing.

[mhsmith0]

As proposed, you could see a full Roleblocker flip, cop thinking now it's super ok to out because there must be protection, then surprise there's a strongtman too, which I think is juts generally unusual setup wise.

[mhsmith0]

Breaking up the rb into odd and even would be fine by me if that's something Shaziro is ok with.

[mhsmith0]

Up to your discretion, but is generally announced one way or the other.

[mhsmith0]

I generally clarify it in the relevant scum PMs (so for goon I don't bother, for a roleblocker I would).

[mhsmith0]

I'm cool w this.

Couple notes/confirmations:

1) Neighborhoods are locked in the day? Or not?
2) Are you going to openly declare it single ball in signups? The OP makes it pretty clear it's single ball so I figure you might as well.