Civilization Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Brian Skies]

Sup. Who needs rope?

[Brian Skies]

Sup. Who needs rope?

Scum thinks I need rope
-Nebby

And who would that be?

[Brian Skies]

ABR is always manipulative. It's one of his more endearing traits.

[Brian Skies]

Talk to Brian about that. Defending yourself is a losing battle.

I'm good at defending people though.

[Brian Skies]

I don't wanna iso people in this large ass game. Also, Pine has 5 posts.

Five

. In a 200 page game. Why is he still alive?

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: Pine

This seems like the best low effort vote I can make until I properly catch up (which may be never).

[Brian Skies]

Oh, Pine is one half of a hydra. That doesn't change much for me though.

[Brian Skies]

Fight me Nero.

[Brian Skies]

I

do

care. But let's be honest here. You guys post faster than I can read, so I'm just going with the flow and seeing if I can generate some good reads until I do inevitably catch up. To say I don't care is pretty unfair considering I haven't read this game yet (I didn't want to bother if I someone else replaced in instead) and am basically still in RVS stages while the rest of you are a full day ahead of me.

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: Caesar

[Brian Skies]

Is this the same Gerryoat from EM?

[Brian Skies]

I can confirm my predecessor failed to build the Pyramids.

[Brian Skies]

Why not, if you're voting him based solely on his low vote count?

Because skimming the hydra's iso just showed more of the same roleplaying activity. To be honest, I haven't read any of it in depth, and town are likely to get drowned out by noise, especially in a game as large as this one. I just don't see any reason to move my vote elsewhere, especially since I've seen scum do weird things to obfuscate their alignment, like spoilering each individual response in a wall response or [reiterating?] information with strange formatting.

Also, you're fos'ing them and waiting to vote them yourself. Why is that?

[Brian Skies]

You think I'm scum because I claimed PR on D1 LOL

Yes we caught you slipping Day 1. Credit to frogger may his soul RIP.

This is not actual town thought process.

No scum would ever fake-claim a PR.

Calling this a slip is just forcing fake-ass reads.

What? You don't actually think this, do you?

@mod: Even though this is implied in the first post with antitown factions only have night chat....

Can you please confirm every player starts off as Vanilla?

There are no roles inherent to any slots in this game.

^Also this?

[Brian Skies]

Hmmm those colours didnt quite come out the way they looked on the coloured palet.

ABR is my top priority lynch. Followed by Davesaz and Elbirn.

And then followed by Kyouko/Ceasar at a bit of a distance.

VOTE: Albert B Rampage

Is there a reason you want him lynched other than him being disruptive to the gamestate? I see a lot of people stating they want him dead, but not for anything that makes me believe they think he's scum.

Also, if it lands on scum, who cares if the Caesar wagon is a poor information lynch?

[Brian Skies]

Hmmm those colours didnt quite come out the way they looked on the coloured palet.

ABR is my top priority lynch. Followed by Davesaz and Elbirn.

And then followed by Kyouko/Ceasar at a bit of a distance.

VOTE: Albert B Rampage

Is there a reason you want him lynched other than him being disruptive to the gamestate? I see a lot of people stating they want him dead, but not for anything that makes me believe they think he's scum.

Also, if it lands on scum, who cares if the Caesar wagon is a poor information lynch?

How confident are you that a Caesar lynch would flip scum? Is he your only scumread thus far?

I'm not. I just don't think not lynching someone because 'it doesn't provide good information' is a valid reason to not lynch somebody. And the only reason it's being prevented from offering us any information is because people are stating so.

@Nero: I have not seen anything alignment indicative regarding A+N, but then again I've only made it to page 20 (but I'm still following along). I'm not really feeling it. There's a lot of animosity early on about them wanting to be a neighborizor and not being afraid to fight people over it despite people telling them what they were doing was scummy or wrong. I've seen your mini case about them accusing Albert of being the sole reason a wagon got derailed. It's a hyperbole. Since when is that a scumtell?

[Brian Skies]

Has anyone else noticed Creature only scumreading the players at the bottom of the post count?

[Brian Skies]

Also have you even read Camm's revenge?
Pine was a global impotentant child (Scum IC) Treestump.
Scum won that game.
-Nebby

Has anyone else noticed Creature only scumreading the players at the bottom of the post count?

Did earlier and asked and got drowned out.

Do you think it is Town motivated and agree with Titus head before or scum motivated and ducking content?

It depends on his reasoning (which I don't think he's given). I think these are all easy lynches to shoot for and coast with as scum.

[Brian Skies]

slots that haven't talked about it at all

Brian Skies

I did talk about it. You just don't like my response.

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: Vecna

[Brian Skies]

I scumread LUV hard.

I scumread LUV too. But then again, I only have like 5 reads right now. I don't think having both Vecna and Albert together in that scumteam makes sense unless you think Vecna and Albert just really don't like each other.

[Brian Skies]

I feel like the only white sheep with black sheeps.

Wouldn't this make you the ugly duckling then?

[Brian Skies]

Good, because these overlap strongly with my scumreads and me and luv are actually town.

What is your townread on LUV based on?

[Brian Skies]

Brian Skyes are you from epicmafia

-G

Was. I deleted my account.

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: Creature

I've fallen behind. But I do think Vecna was town flailing in response to the pressure of his wagon. I didn't like Creature saying he liked the Kyouko wagon and then jumping to Vecna before it could materialize. I also didn't like him asking who should volunteer to be lynched in the event Vecna flipped scum.

I don't know why people are townreading Uzi. A lot of his comments surrounding setup speculation is scummy. He says most of the abilities are bad and that town shouldn't invest in them, which could be scum hoping to skate by with for a few nights with relatively powerless town while scum get a better shot at getting the more concerning roles. He also had a crumb as early as page 25, so I feel the whole argument of ABR pushing a scumread on him for faking a claim to be either insincere or misguided. I thought maybe Vecna was a partner, but I can kind of see a townie just wanting to hold onto a shitty meta read.

I think A+N is town. I like most of their early posting and don't understand why people scumread them. I also have a townread on Yuri.

I'm busy today, but will return later tonight.

[Brian Skies]

There were no posts from Pine between either of your votes, though. Why do you want to lynch Kyouko? Could I interest you in an Uzi wagon?

[Brian Skies]

Probably because this game is long as hell and I haven't caught up either (although I'm still following along).

[Brian Skies]

I have a townread on Nero.

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: Albert

[Brian Skies]

I'll catch up in the morning.

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: LUV

[Brian Skies]

Game-solving desire = 0.

How does one measure game-solving desire? The fact that I'm not posting 80+ posts a day? Or that I haven't been around the first few days of a 12+ day day-phase? Or maybe it's because I don't play like many other people on this site? I'm genuinely curious.

You also act as though apathy only comes from one alignment.

[Brian Skies]

Brian looks bad because he constantly shades me yet doesn't vote.

nancy, why you don't see that?

I've voted you twice already. Just because I'm not voting you now doesn't mean I don't want to lynch you, it just means I want to lynch LUV more.

[Brian Skies]

Correction, I've voted you once, but point still stands.

[Brian Skies]

I honestly don't remember anything that slot has said. Let's vote LUV, Creature. It'll be more fun than if we played a game of Hangman.

[Brian Skies]

LUV is only 40/60 flipping scum.

What is this 40/60 based on? And which side is the 60 on?

[Brian Skies]

LUV is scum, you guys just refuse to see it for whatever reason. Nothing he says is townish, his setup spec is scum motivated, and he faked a PR crumb on Day 1 (and we now know that all the roles started off as vanilla). Not to mention he always just claims town and puts on a frown whenever someone scumreads him. His defense on my hammer vote is also just weird, like he's trying to buddy me. Lynch LUV.

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: Creature

[Brian Skies]

My reads on LUV and Creature are not interdependent. People just won't give me what I want.

[Brian Skies]

I've never played with him.

[Brian Skies]

I wouldn't call it textbook, I just think he's scum.

[Brian Skies]

I would lynch Senpai.

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: Kyouko

[Brian Skies]

That reaction is priceless.

[Brian Skies]

Fo real though, why can't we lynch Kyouko?

[Brian Skies]

Alisae - Town
Nero Cain - Town
Yuri - Town
MathBlade - idk
Leonshade - idk
Elbirn - town
Creature - scum
Caesar Wills It - scum
Lil Uzi Vert - scum
Vecna - town
ssbm_Kyouko - maybe scum
davesaz - idk
Maxous - idk
PeregrineV - town, probably
Sondam - town
NoticeMeSenpai - would lynch
nancy - manipulative

[Brian Skies]

Yuri is based on early posting. I've liked her posting since I've replaced in. I liked some of Elbirn's recent posting. Vecna was townflailing when he got run up.

I've already explained Creature and LUV. Caesar is hiding behind flavorposting. Kyouko doesn't say anything substantial when he posts. Senpai derails the wagons I want. I'm pretty sure the definition of manipulative is fairly straightforward.

Can't really explain an idk read.

[Brian Skies]

If you'd like more from Kyouko, help me run him up.

"Hiding behind flavorposting" isn't an 'excuse,' it's a 'reason'. Have you actually read through Caesar's posting? Or are you just assuming that because he gives stances that he's probably town?

[Brian Skies]

Not like anyone is going to follow Brain, he doesn't have any pull.

It's okay. Maybe if I just plant my vote where it is for about a day or so, votes will magically materialize for me.

[Brian Skies]

Kyouko wagon looks like more fun. Why aren't you okay with a Kyouko wagon?

[Brian Skies]

Wait, why does Nancy have Vecna as a scumread?

[Brian Skies]

just for the record you are scumreading Nancy?

No, some of you just assumed I was. I wouldn't be surprised if that slot was scum though. I pretty much just ran down the playerlist and left my immediate impression of each slot.

[Brian Skies]

So if ur town, stop baiting the lynch

I haven't been baiting any lynch. I don't have the luxury of having the proper foundation to push my reads through, but that doesn't mean I'm not trying. Stop assuming that just because people don't play like you or post like crazy that they aren't trying. This isn't even my natural playstyle anyway.

I voted Albert because Math caught him in a lie and I thought he was trying to bait a PR to claim. I also thought his demeanor when he came back felt a little off.

I'm voting Kyouko because I've already tried lynching all my stronger scumreads, each of which currently has too much resistance to go through (and I could be wrong on them anyway). What's your read on Kyouko?

I'm also not fond of you relying on meta to hard townread people and discounting the fact that people do improve. It's not like Jaereed didn't already admit to being coached this game.

[Brian Skies]

LUV talk to me about the scum motivation behind Drixx saying he was going to go for pryamids super early on.

Ive already done this, its rather simple.

You wifom it as a reason youre not getting nightkilled. Pretend you picked it, but then just state you didnt get it. Maybe even pick a GF wonder later and make tow waste investigatives.

People claim scum couldn't do it because it invites investigatives. This reasoning is nonsensical.

My predecessor failed to build the pyramids, which both he and I claimed on Day 2. It's not something that could have been faked unless you think PV is scum (or if you think my slot was banking on someone else to poach it from him).

[Brian Skies]

I was referring to Jaereed.

[Brian Skies]

But if the game you're basing your read on ended before this game began, what's to say he didn't just decide to try something new and he's making a huge leap here? Your meta reliance doesn't make sense to me, but to each his own.

[Brian Skies]

I don't like Math's vote. Voting Vecna just because of the argument he had with Albert is pretty shady.

[Brian Skies]

An assumption made because you were unclear.

Yes, and it was intentional.

It's like simultaneously discrediting Vecna's read

while trying to be non-committal about it.

I did the same thing yesterday. Also, I have a townread on Vecna.

I know you're scumreading Kyouko. Join me.

[Brian Skies]

Maxous -- Town by meta at start but is returning to Undertale voting patterns only if scum with Sondam.
Sondam -- Did town meta at start. Only way I see them as scum is with

So dam

which I find doubtful.

Is the bolded supposed to say Maxous?

[Brian Skies]

Let's remember that Cloudie replaced into a slot that is probably town.

This still hasn't been explained by you or anyone else. I, personally, find it questionable.

[Brian Skies]

Careful, your colors are showing.

[Brian Skies]

Careful, your colors are showing.

[Brian Skies]

Now you're just spamming the thread.

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: Caesar

[Brian Skies]

I swear I'm not secretly a doublevoter.

[Brian Skies]

LUV is probably town, maybe, idk.

A better argument would be to look at the few stances Pine has given this game. But to be honest, I haven't read a single post from the slot and don't tend to.

Although, I don't know how someone can possibly think someone else is town or even have a stance on someone if they don't read their posts.

[Brian Skies]

Well, that was what I was alluding to, but if he were scum, he could also just as easily make something up. His stubborn insistence that his own experiences have nothing to do with another's reads town to me. I also get the feeling that he wasn't trying to fan any flames between you and Mathblade.

You think Math is scum, though. But I'm pretty sure players aren't allowed to tactically replace out, and Titus/Math making a huge show of things definitely counts as crossing that line.

[Brian Skies]

Senator Brian Skies, your case against us seems to be wholly without merit. We have perused everything you have had to say in the Senate chambers and can find no clear reason for your position. We command you to clarify it, or state what you would have from Us to satisfy your suspicions.

I'm not a fan of roleplaying or anything else that may obscure the information a slot is trying to present. I've seen scum intentionally do odd things in the past, and I've also seen scum hide behind flowery words. LUV claims to have seen town roleplay, and he's even stated a townread on you for it. I'd ask you your position on LUV considering he's townreading you while simultaneously admitting to not having read any of your posts, but it seems you're already scumreading him (for what reasons, I do not know). You have also stated a scumread on Vecna, who I've been townreading for a while now. I liked many of his interactions when he was being pressured. I've also liked his tone and many of his posts this day phase. I don't know if you've stated any reasoning for your Vecna read, something I find concerning. The only thing that would satisfy my suspicions is you convincing me I'm wrong about my read on you or you presenting a better alternative.

[Brian Skies]

hm okay but this isnt my read VOTE: ceasar

Why the 180? Didn't you think the gamestate indicated Pine was town?

[Brian Skies]

Nero is scum. His ISO is palpably scummy. What convinced me that Nero is scum? He has a violent temper and yet when I accused him of being scum because of an awful argument he barely even blinked an eye. The way that he's been trying to replicate the same type of behavior that has been getting him read favorably. Nero doesn't tunnel on Math like this. He doesn't concoct the kind of bad theory about Math contradicting themselves. He hunts scum with a passion that in this game is replaced by empty aggression.

I don't know about him having a violent temper as town, especially in the games I've played with him. But I don't get the feeling Nero's lacking passion or aggression this game. He's continuously pushing his reads and trying to draw attention to them, and not in a way I find scummy. Nero's scumread on the Titus slot stems from the early game, so his continued aggression there doesn't surprise me. Both you and Sondam have called his posting bad. What about it is bad? Just a quick skim of his iso still makes me think he's town.

What are your thoughts on CK and Math unquestionably sheeping your reads here?

[Brian Skies]

Noble Senators, I hear your dissatisfaction and turmoil, and request quarter. A brief recess while tempers cool, and for Us to address these new and spurious charges in full light of day.

Spoiler: Translation

Ugh, there's a bunch I want to say, but it's 4AM and I have a six-hour training in the morning. I'm quite confident that I can eviscerate the wagon on me, as I've actually examined the cases against me and the only one with any original thought or attempt at gamesolving is nancy, maybe Math. The rest is largely thinly-veiled OMGUS and "lol why not this wagon seems fun." Looking at you, CK. My training ends around 3PM EST tomorrow, but I might be able to get out early considering it's a basic first aid/CPR class I need to qualify as a trainer and I'm a professional EMT. Don't lynch me til then and I'll finish this omnibus case on LUV and finish re-evaluating Vecna.

And stop hating on Caesar, he's really fun

I can wait.

Unvote: Caesar

[Brian Skies]

Math and Sondam are the counterwagons scum are trying to push right now.

I need to sleep, but where are these mythical counterwagons? All I see is Nero (and I guess PV).

[Brian Skies]

Nero, are you not at all paranoid about me townreading you?

[Brian Skies]

Nero, are you not at all paranoid about me townreading you?

I never knew I was town reading you.

What's your read on me?

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: Dave

[Brian Skies]

hm okay but this isnt my read VOTE: ceasar

Why the 180? Didn't you think the gamestate indicated Pine was town?

[Brian Skies]

Alisae brought up the point that it would be better to save the alignment because numbers and to add to that, with there being a higher percent chance of Math hitting a townie, if the player was mod confirmed D3 as town, that person would be killed the following night.

also just to clarify, the

plan

was to have the pyramids claim and Math would cop them but PV didn't claim for ???? so we'd still have that IC.

That's grody. That makes sense now from your side.

It's still a damn stretch, tell me still how, as scum it would be best to claim you should die?

I can see a Math/PV scumteam. PV grabbing the Pyramids and then refusing to claim gives Math an out to not be vigged. Killing PV in the night phase makes him look bad for not claiming. Meanwhile, distancing and an outright claim from Math gives Math a free ride to the end game where people can't question why he hasn't died for having his role.

[Brian Skies]

I still want to hear Caesar's response, but I don't like the way his wagon built up. We have three people citing Nancy as their reason for joining the wagon, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are scum in {CK, Math, Yuri} looking for an easy vote. The lack of a serious counter wagon also makes me think scum are perfectly content with seeing Caesar get lynched today.

[Brian Skies]

Um, sure?

[Brian Skies]

about 4-5 slots already threw shade w/o any justifications at all but everytime i make an ambigous posts, im getting asked for my justifications behind it, every time

It's not about your posts being ambiguous but us questioning your thinking. How are we supposed to sort you if you just handwave it with ATE? And you've avoided my question to you twice now.

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: Sondam

[Brian Skies]

If a vig wonder was taken by a townie, please shoot Math.

[Brian Skies]

I find the towncases on Dave underwhelming. Who's to say he isn't just trying to coast as long as possible and deny a wonder from town? Also, him going back and starting the game over doesn't sit right with me. Didn't he say he was caught up to like page 319 before? He should still have some semblance of reads in this game.

[Brian Skies]

Actually, I probably misread his post.

[Brian Skies]

Yep, it's kinda frustrating. People need to compromise.

[Brian Skies]

My lynch pool: {TheRealGin-N-Tonic, davesaz, Maxous, Sondam, NoticeMeSenpai, Mathblade, Cloudkicker}

Although, Math is better off vigged.

[Brian Skies]

And Leonshade.

[Brian Skies]

Did we break nancy?

[Brian Skies]

Is no lynch a good option today? There's an even number of us, and if we have a vig, hopefully they can finally shoot Math and have him die like his role expects him to.

[Brian Skies]

Because they're all scummy, and Caesar was one of the wagons I originally wanted. Was there even a case on either of the first two?

[Brian Skies]

Well, I have a townread on Caesar anyway. I was just explaining why I was on the wagon.

[Brian Skies]

There's literally no way that Aslan isn't scum here. All his behavior with scumslots aside his play yesterday and today is just scum overload.

What happened to your super secret towntell on Ali?

[Brian Skies]

Isn't Senpai the one that outted the tell though?

[Brian Skies]

Oh, Nancy is scumreading Senpai too. That makes sense.

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: Leonshade

I don't think any of nancy, Ali, or Luv are scum.

[Brian Skies]

Well, Luv maybe, but I have him higher up than so many other players that I'm just not feeling it right now.

[Brian Skies]

I really want to see what davesaz has to say. I'm not that interested in waiting until Day 5 for him to do things.

[Brian Skies]

Also, please talk to me about the idea of no lynching today, especially since we know we have a Parity Cop floating around and the juicy eras coming up.

[Brian Skies]

To be fair, Sondam self voted and didn't even claim. I don't know why you're taking it out on Luv.

[Brian Skies]

I feel very empty right now. I wonder if it's because Vecna isn't here to fill that void.

[Brian Skies]

Is it just me, or does Leonshade seem to really enjoy pushing the replacements?

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: Leonshade

I don't think any of nancy, Ali, or Luv are scum.

Explain.

nancy - The VCA is annoying because I don't do it, but I fail to see the point of her going through that much busy work as scum. While I do find her a bit manipulative, the Caesar wagon on the previous day bothered the shit out of me, and I still think scum were probably jumping at the chance to sheep her. I still think there's probably at least one scum in {Math, Cloud, Yuri}.

Ali - This is a read mostly based on what little of the early game I've read. I still think their strong insistence to go for the wonder they wanted is coming from town, and I don't find any of their posting forced. Although some of the things they've pushed against Luv today is a little disconcerting, like this considering the Modern Era hasn't come up yet, so why should LUV be expected to have grabbed a wonder.

LUV - I actually don't remember what instigated me thinking LUV could be town this game. But I'm not a fan of the wagon on him here because I feel like he's just getting a lot of flak for his hammer vote despite Sondam's self vote being really bad. I wouldn't be surprised if he just really didn't like Sondam's self vote and just said 'fuck it.' I haven't had any issues with any of his responses to the pressure on him either.

Leonshade - I haven't gotten the same feeling that you could be town like some of the others. And I feel like you're just more interested in continuously throwing shade on me than actually sorting me.

[Brian Skies]

I'm disturbed by the amount of people who have completely ignored Vecna's claim.

Nancy id like to discuss wonder picks between the two of us. I think both of us should submit for the scum wonders today. And with that i mean, the roleblock, night action protection, and the investigation manipulator.

I feel were the most likely kills (barring a docsave) so we should make sure we take low townvalue wonders today that are great to deny to scum. The roleblock abd investigative block should not be used ofcourse if we aquire them.

This way we force scum to choose between getting rid of the gamesolvers in this game, and to hunt for the investigative wonders.

Thoughts?

^?

[Brian Skies]

I'm going to sleep. Maybe I won't feel like bashing my head against the wall when I come back.

[Brian Skies]

LUV is a better vote than both.

Why do you think LUV is scum? I thought he was scummy at first, but lately I've been thinking he's probably town. Vecna being one of my strongest townreads and saying LUV's most likely town also makes me not want to lynch him, so I'm really interested in why you think he's the best lynch right now.

[Brian Skies]

"the Caesar wagon on the previous day bothered the shit out of me"

@brian why an how did it bothered you

Unlike the other wagons, the Caesar wagon rose pretty rapidly, but with you, Math, and Yuri all citing nancy as the reason for their vote. It just didn't feel right to me, and you still haven't explained why you were so fine with voting their despite claiming previously that the gamestate indicated Caesar was probably town.

[Brian Skies]

I just don't see Math being town here. I don't care about all the AtE or whatever you think it was doing with his sister. His Vecna push is questionable at best and his interactions with PV the previous day are so slimy. Not to mention he keeps trying to ride on the back of 'I would never do that with my sister' instead of, you know, being 'obvtown' like he constantly claims to be.

[Brian Skies]

Also, people need to stop using the word 'obvtown.' If someone were 'obvtown', everyone would be able to see it, so they're obviously not and you need to get off your high horse and explain the read.

[Brian Skies]

I wish people would actually talk about Vecna's claim instead of just pretending it didn't even happen because I have nfc how to read it.

I don't like the way he thinks it will confirm him as town and that we should just trust our investigation results just based on his 'word' that he will use it, but he did ask you if you wanted to go for a pro-scum wonder with him, to which I don't think you ever responded. I don't see why Town Vecna wouldn't claim having the wonder if he got it, especially since a townie wouldn't have anything to hide, and I think people would end up asking him about it if he got one anyway. If I were to fully ignore his claim, he would be a strong townread for me. I really liked his entrance into today, and I really liked his wall posts. I really feel like it's filled with town lines and not scumfuckery bullshit.

[Brian Skies]

Brian is town because of Drixx.

I replaced in like 200 pages ago, you can't still be holding onto this.

[Brian Skies]

Damn, resolution phase and my catchup is 15 pages already.
On page 398, Creature

398/416 pages is still pretty fucking good. How do you not have a clue what you want to do right now? I'm not asking for much, just give us your thoughts on the game as you see it so we at least know what you're thinking.

[Brian Skies]

i did explain

Quote it.

[Brian Skies]

Also, people need to stop using the word 'obvtown.' If someone were 'obvtown', everyone would be able to see it, so they're obviously not and you need to get off your high horse and explain the read.

because mefia would call obvtown obvtown?

It's so people don't try to hide behind false bravado and fake reads. Scum already know everyone's alignments, so it's easier for them to make claims like this.

[Brian Skies]

You voted close to the end of it despite how fast it formed, its not like you were there at first and didnt have time to unvote, how inconsistent of you

Why should I have unvoted? How is it inconsistent? The Sondam wasn't a wagon where people were literally deferring their vote to another person.