mastina's Mini Normal Review the Second

[Nexus]

OPENING POST:

Mini Normal Numbers:

Another Normal Game

---

Current Game Status.
Current Game Deadline.
Players.
Basic Rules.
Game Events.

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Current Gamestate

Status

:

Pregame

Deadline

:

N/A.

---

Moderator Background

This game is moderated by mastina.
This game was designed by mastina.
This game was reviewed by *Reviewer*, *Reviewer*, and *Reviewer*.
This game's backup moderator is (well I don't have one right now--I don't strictly speaking need one, but it'd be nice)

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Players

Players

:

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. 
   
4. 
   
5. 
   
6. 
   
7. 
   
8. 
   
9. 
   
10. 
    
11. 
    
12. 
    

Spoiler: Alive (13)

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.

Spoiler: Dead (0)

None yet!

---

Rules

:

• Standard site rules are in place; you should REALLY know these by now.
  
• Deadlines:
  Days are three weeks (or until lynch); nights are three days (except weekend-nights which're four). Failure to submit an action or obtain majority on a lynch, and it is forfeit.
  
• Voting
  must be bolded or in vote tags to be counted. If I recognize who it's for, it counts.
• I'll send out
  Prods
  after three days, but will poke players on request before then. They must post within two days and cannot let themselves receive five prods, or they'll be replaced.
• Have fun, but
  don't be a jerkass
  . Seriously, I'll force-replace you if you prove toxic to the game's atmosphere.

MISCELLANEOUS:

1. I do allow contentless "
   bah
   " posts with no restriction other than lacking game content.
2. <<< Pure, bolded black within these marks is my modding color. There's no way to accidentally use these; DON'T USE THEM. >>>
3. Golden rule? ASK! I'll do what I can to answer. Got a complaint? Raise it, and I'll do what I can.
4. Loophole abuse
   will be treated just as seriously as (if not moreso than) the actual crime. Seriously. Just don't. The game's meant to be FUN, and if you're seeking loopholes, you're not in the right game. (For instance, I take
   very
   poorly to prod-dodges. Just announce V/LA.)

GAME SPECIFIC:

1. This game is explicitly 10:3 town:mafia.
   
2. Any and all game topics will remain open the entire game.
   
3. The mafia may both kill and action.
   
4. This game was reviewed for normalcy/balance by *name*, *name*, and *name*.
   
5. The following is the sample town PM:

   Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

   Playername

   .
   You are a

   Vanilla Townie

   .
   Your only weapons are your voice and your vote.
   
   You win when all threats to the

   town

   are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.
   
   The game thread is here.
   Please confirm your role via PM.
   
   Good luck and have fun!

Separate post:

Notable Events

:

Role PMs are sent.
Day One begins.

Spoiler: D1 Events

(Votecounts, Replacements, etc.

Current Votecount

:

(N/A)



SETUP:
10-3 town-scum

Town:

Vigilante
Gunsmith
Tracker
Ascetic Townie
VT x6

vs.

Mafia:

Loud Fruit Vendor
Goon x2

-Gunsmith gets results as "has a gun" (vigilante, all mafia), "does not have a gun", or "no result" (ascetic).
-Tracker gets results as "playername visited (players that person targeted)", "playername did not visit", or "no result" (ascetic).
-The target of the loud fruit vendor is informed "Playername visited you last night" and is separately told "You received a piece of fruit last night".
-Mafia may both kill and action.
-Loud, because it is not currently whitelisted, would be my graylist role.

(Here the extra town role is the tracker since I feel the town is too weak without them, I don't want to gate the gunsmith, and I didn't see much point in gating the vig.)

Role PMs:

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
Your only weapons are your voice and your vote.

You win when all threats to the

town

are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Town Gunsmith

.
During the night, target a player. You will receive results in the form of "Playername has a gun", "Playername does not have a gun", or "No result".

You win when all threats to the

town

are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Town Vigilante

.
During the night, target a player. Should your action succeed, that player will be killed.

You win when all threats to the

town

are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are an

Ascetic Townie

.
Any non-killing actions targeting you will fail.

You win when all threats to the

town

are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Town Tracker

.
During the night, target a player. You will receive results in the form of "Playername visited (player/players that person targeted)", "Playername did not visit", or "No result".

You win when all threats to the

town

are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Mafia Goon

.
Your partners are

X

(

Goon

), and

Y

(

Loud Fruit Vendor

).
You may talk in this private topic at any time.

During the night, you may select a player to kill. You must specify who is performing the kill.

You win when you control 50% of the living and nothing can prevent this.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Mafia Loud Fruit Vendor

.
Your partners are

X

and

Y

, both

Goons

.
You may talk in this private topic at any time.

During the night, target a player. They will receive a piece of fruit.
Whenever you target a player, they will be informed that you targeted them, but not what action you used.

Should you choose to, during the night, you may select a player to kill. You must specify who is performing the kill.

You win when you control 50% of the living and nothing can prevent this.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

[Firebringer]

This looks perfectly fine to me.
I assume scum don't have day chat?

[mastina]

They do; is that a problem for balance?

[Firebringer]

No, I mean it will have a impact on game but it's hard to determine balance effects since it's entirely based on who has it and how used.
I would rephrase game setup point two to specifically clarify this means scum chat (I am assuming that's where your putting it)

[mastina]

I don't like limiting the specification to mafia as then it tells the game (both town and scum) that there is no outside daytalk aside from the mafia. (No masons, no neighborhoods, no neighborizers.) The "any and all" part leaves it intentionally ambiguous. Mafia role PMs also specify they can talk at any time. (And so will the mafia thread, when I make it.)

[mhsmith0]

On first glance, a touch townsided unless the thought is loud fruit vendor appears pretty self-clearing? ungated Vig/GS/Tracker is a pretty solid combo (and ascetic automatically gets avoided by investigatives almost always, which helps narrow things down). The vig can get outed by either investigative PR potentially, but vig is usually gonna get in 2+ shots, which is a pretty strong outcome for town unless vig shots are REALLY bad.

I'm SLIGHTLY inclined to give mafia a 1-shot doctor (immune to the GS, and a very slight counter to the vig), but that may be a bit too much. Will mull it over.

[mastina]

If the game is in any way townsided the solution would not for me be adding in scum power, even something weak like a 1x doctor (which I think swings the setup well into scumsided). I do in fact consider the loud fruit vendor to be fairly self-clearing for what it's worth: short of D1 lynch, N1 vig (or I suppose the fruit vendor sending to the player the vig shoots), or N1 gunsmith (all of which are admittedly possible), the role is going to be put in a very strong position from D2 onward.

If the role is outted at any point, I don't see the town realistically vigging, gunsmithing, or lynching it, which gives the mafia plenty of strength so long as they can keep the role from being eliminated prior to the point where it has been done. But there is in fact that very realistic chance of the role being eliminated prior to the point where it can be used effectively.

Basically, I realize both sides have some fairly strong roles. (Gunsmith/Vig both are strong, the loud fruit vendor is situationally strong--which is the best type of role to give a scumteam.) As a result, their early death does induce a certain level of swing. I feel like the level of swing is within acceptable margins though. The town has no protectives; their investigation roles are wide open to attack. If the town roles survive via not being outed and manage to produce results...they should be rewarded for that. If the scum fail to kill the town's PRs and let them generate results...they should be punished for that.

If the town fails to protect their PRs by outing them before results can be given...they should be punished for that. If the scum succeed in killing the town's PRs and deny them results...they should be rewarded for that. If the town manage to lynch the scum's PR, they should be rewarded. If the scum fail to utilize their PR to its potential, they should be punished for that. I won't say the town letting the scum's PR be used to its full potential is punishable, but I will say that if scum do utilize their PR to its full potential, they should be rewarded for that.

The setup, as it currently is, rewards good play from a side and punishes bad play from a side. At the same time, there is a built-in level of countermeasures against an early setback dooming a side--namely: if the scum lose their PR, they can still systematically kill off the town PRs (thanks to the town lacking protectives). If the town loses one of their PRs, they still have two others which are of respectable strength. Optimal play simply ensures that these situations are less likely for a side. While luck of the draw does factor in, this luck is mostly in who draws what roles.

I realize the scum if things go REALLY badly for them might complain. The game could end as early as D2, if scum lynched D1 and vigged N1. (Especially if the third is gunsmith guiltied.) They might think that the importance of their PR was overvalued in review, or that the town PRs were undervalued. (Which is one reason why I'd be willing to lose the tracker for what it's worth--that role was my bonus "if town needs it" role this game. Vig + Gunsmith is strong on its own.) But I honestly feel like if the town plays this well, and/or the scum plays this poorly, they should be allowed to have the appropriate game results.

The flipside of that also is that the game can get to lylo as early as D3: 13 alive D1 (10-3), mislynch, misvig, scum nightkill brings it to 10 alive D2 (7-3). Mislynch again, misvig, and scum nightkill brings it to 7 alive (4-3). It does not take much for the scum to win, especially since the vig can kill town PRs, the gunsmith can investigate town PRs, and the town PRs can target the same player, all with a large probability. (Not to mention, scum also doing so with their nightkill.)

I feel like, numbers-wise, this setup does come out to balanced overall. (Perhaps theoretically heavy on the town side but pragmatically not so much.) The game will be shorter than your average mini normal--but not because one faction held a distinct edge over the other. IF the town is too strong as-is, then reducing the strength of (or outright removing) the tracker would be my preference, because I absolutely think that the scum should not be stronger and I absolutely do not want to nerf the gunsmith or the vig by gating them. (Though if the tracker is removed, I'd say the scum probably eek out a win realistically speaking, just off of probability of player skill level. Which brings up the question of balancing on theory or on play.)

[mastina]

Potential compromise: gate the tracker to two-shot?
I mean, I realize it's gating the town's weakest PR, but it prevents the tracker from becoming absurdly overpowered if the gamestate reaches a point where there's only one scum left alive.

[mhsmith0]

Yeah i think I'm ok with that as a compromise. Two full investigatives (even if tracker is mediocre early game, it's very strong late game) and a full vig is a lot of power for town without any direct counter from scum.

[Empking]

I agree that gating the Traker is sensible.. PMs seem fine, save for it being ambighious whether "Loud" applies to the kill also (if he is the killer).

I assume pokes are not prods? Rules seem fine.

I never got scum being able to double-action, what results does the Tracker get in that case?

[mastina]

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Town Two-shot Tracker

.
During the night, you may target a player. You will receive results in the form of "Playername visited (player/players that person targeted)", "Playername did not visit", or "No result". You may only use this action twice.

You win when all threats to the

town

are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

[mastina]

PMs seem fine, save for it being ambighious whether "Loud" applies to the kill also (if he is the killer).

The role specifies "any" action, and the nightkill counts as an action, so yes. When the Loud Fruit Vendor makes a nightkill, the player targeted for the nightkill is informed. (Not that it matters, since there is no kill prevention method so if they get nightkilled by the Loud Fruit Vendor, they die no matter what, but if the mafia ask about it this will be my answer.)

I assume pokes are not prods?

Correct.

I never got scum being able to double-action, what results does the Tracker get in that case?

The tracker is given the players the mafia targeted: both the nightkill, and the target of the mafia's role action. (In this case, the fruit vend target plus the nightkill.)

Updated tracker PM...accidentally posted right before this post, but seen above in post 10.

[Empking]

PMs seem fine, save for it being ambighious whether "Loud" applies to the kill also (if he is the killer).

The role specifies "any" action,

The role PM does not.

Updated tracker PM...accidentally posted right before this post, but seen above in post 10.

Looks good.

[mastina]

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Mafia Loud Fruit Vendor

.
Your partners are

X

and

Y

, both

Goons

.
You may talk in this private topic at any time.

During the night, target a player. They will receive a piece of fruit.
Whenever you target a player with any action, they will be informed that you targeted them, but not what action you used.

Should you choose to, during the night, you may select a player to kill. You must specify who is performing the kill.

You win when you control 50% of the living and nothing can prevent this.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

Better?

[mhsmith0]

I'm ok w setup. Nervous the fruit vendor isn't as strong as mastina thinks it is, but I don't think it's totally townsided if it turns out to basically be useless (especially if fruit vendor does clever stuff like confirming the ascetic w his night action). Town has reasonable odds of coordinating well, but it's gonna be swingy on whether the vig is any good or not, and/or the gunsmith targets the vig.

OP:
looks good

Role PMs:
scum: "You win when you control 50% of the living and nothing can prevent this." change "and" to "or", otherwise ok
That said, are you announcing as single ball or no? Scum role PMs make it clear to them it's single ball, town role PMs don't. If htat's intentional, im ok w it, but want to make sure it's intentional.

Other notes:
Not really, looks good

[mastina]

scum: "You win when you control 50% of the living and nothing can prevent this." change "and" to "or", otherwise ok

I don't see why this is necessary wording-wise.

That said, are you announcing as single ball or no?

It's in the OP, yes, that the game is explicitly 10:3.

Scum role PMs make it clear to them it's single ball, town role PMs don't.

I don't see how the scum role PMs make it clear it's single-ball since I use that exact same wording in multiball (and in fact it is a bit of a tipoff to them to look out for it), but yes. I do intentionally leave my role PMs as ambiguous, as to give me a consistent template for role PMs which can be applied across games.

For

this specific game

, the setup is explicitly 10:3. I like having the flexibility to verbatim copy role PMs from one game to another though, and in that other game I may choose NOT to disclose that information.

[mastina]

Yo.
Nexus has no games in signups right now, I'm sure he'd appreciate having a game there and I'd be more than happy to volunteer but that's not exactly something I can do on my own.

[mhsmith0]

Well I approved it so it's not my fault

[Empking]

You solved my issues

/approved

[Firebringer]

Ill examine this later.

[Firebringer]

I want it noted I hate full vigilante in this.
But I guess it will be fine.

Approved by Fire

[mhsmith0]

I don't see why this is necessary wording-wise.

FWIW, the "and" is redundant. If scum control 50% of the vote, clearly nothing can prevent it because it already happened.

The "or" is there in case something like a MYLO mislynch with no protective/killing/blocking power for town still alive. There, scum have yet to reach 50%, but they still achieve wincon because 50% is inevitable, so rather than forcing through a boring night phase, the mod has the option to just end it at the mislynch.

[mastina]

By the way, noting it in here: I'm V/LA on the weekend, so I may not be able to start my game until some time on Monday. (Monday, some time later on Monday by PST, so basically Tuesday by standards elsewhere in the world.) Don't pull me from signups if that happens, please.

[mastina]

The game has ended; this PT may now be released.

[Fro99er]

This was a great setup mastina <3