Balance Discussuon Thread

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Post Post #36 (isolation #0) » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:57 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 25, Antihero wrote:
In post 18, Ircher wrote:Town Odd-Night Jailkeeper
Town Even-Night Roleblocker
Town Follower Neighbor
Town Voyeur Neighbor
Mafia 1-Shot Strongman Encryptor
Mafia Odd-Night Ninja
Mafia Even-Night Jailkeeper (Town RB has precedence)
6 * Vanilla Townie
ew.... that's ugly

also scumsided
In post 26, Ircher wrote:Ugly? Nah, it's great fun. I ran the setup before (w/o the 1-shot strongman).
In post 27, Antihero wrote:ugh

so i'm guessing u fell into the trap of "town won so it must've been townsided"
It's even more so given that the hoods are night only. Even without the strongman it's scumsided by MS standards. Ninja can crush the follower, jailkeeper can mess w town power, etc. towns power is limited, gated, and in many cases directly countered by extra scum power.

Odd jk
Even rb
Follower
Vs three goons

Would be a bit scumsided, and the net effect of the various extras probably just makes it more so. The strongman throws it well out of balance, potentially giving MULTIPLE late game fake innocent scenarios (ninja vs follower, strongman vs jk or rb).
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #40 (isolation #1) » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:47 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 39, Ircher wrote:Town Tracker
Town Tracker
3 * Mafia Goon
8 * Vanilla Townie
:lol: good one
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #43 (isolation #2) » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:52 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 42, Antihero wrote:
In post 39, Ircher wrote:Town Tracker
Town Tracker
3 * Mafia Goon
8 * Vanilla Townie
special mechanic: on the first two days, scum have to nightkill one of their own after a mislynch

ok, it's balanced now
Probs ok w just doing it day one but yeah basically

Balanced:
3 town PRs, two of which are good, against three goons

Tracker/tracker/doctor is MAYBE ok, but even there I'd be skeptical.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #45 (isolation #3) » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:00 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

You basically don't. Honestly scum flips (pr vs goon) are more helpful than town flips for setup spec, but the big thing is looking at overall power level and thinking

1) does it all make sense vs goons
2) does it make sense if scum has some extra amount of power

There's some sense in looking at whether roles fit together typically, but mods like to play w roles sometimes so setup spec tends to be mediocre generally.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #51 (isolation #4) » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:44 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

6vt/cop/goons is scumsided in a closed setup, fine in an open or semi-open one like matrix6. Closed is always an edge to scum since they have much more room to strategically fakeclaim as convenient.

Also 9/2, rather than 7/2, is an edge to town. Giving town a 1-shot cop on top of that at least makes it closer to balanced, though yeah I'd probably say that town probably does need a 2-shot cop there to make it fair. 9/2 with just a 1-shot cop is probably fine as an open/semiopen tho.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #53 (isolation #5) » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:55 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

I meant edge to town compared to normal balancing. One extra mislynch is still pretty meaningful and relevant for balancing imo.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #57 (isolation #6) » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:21 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

Hmm, not sure tbh. Mafia doc is a big counter to both gunsmith and vig, but three never lynchables and a gunsmith that SHOULD get a result or two is pretty solid for town. Off the cuff I'd say about balanced, MAYBE you give town just a little bit extra but honestly not much.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #61 (isolation #7) » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:09 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

Mafia doctor is EXTREMELY strong against the gunsmith and vig combo, effectively a godfather (vs GS) AND a "better than roleblocker" against the vig (since it stops a scum kill but allows a town kill). The rest of town's power isn't garbage but is still limited. I KINDA think that it'd be balanced with the vig being full or the doc being like 1-shot but idk.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #65 (isolation #8) » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:15 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

I'm not anti, but I'd say it's structural balanced as described with two important caveats

1) scum neighbors are notoriously powerful (if there were lovers without PT then I bet it'd be explicitly townsided)
2) towns option to suicide is a poison pill that undisciplined towns love to take, and towns are notoriously undisciplined (indeed, I'd say the poison pill option is the biggest reason scum have been winning, and it's pretty balanced without said poison pill option)
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #67 (isolation #9) » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:32 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

Image
:P
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #72 (isolation #10) » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:42 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

I mean theoretically it SHOULD be townsided (if you presume that a townie gets left out early and the IC pair is town and eats a bullet, neither of which is certain [the first especially is a chance for town], then it's six pairs, three good three tainted, and presuming RNG lynches, you have 50% win odds for town, and town SHOULD exceed its RNG changes), but it hasn't actually turned out that way.

And I do maintain that the reason for this is that neighbors and neighborhoods are extremely powerful weapons for competent scum. Summer Waltz had pie get pocketed by her lover, New Years had scout and kagami get pocketed, and I'd guess the first game had at least one such outcome as well. Towns aren't good at solving in hoods, and scum are good at manipulating in hoods.

In 10v3 mini normal games, scum are UNDEFEATED as neighbors or neighborizers, a perfect 7-0 record:

Spoiler:
Game 1460: Normalville Mafia
Moderator: ac1983fan
Current Update: Mafia Win

Players
PeregrineV, Town Bodyguard, lynched Day 2
Darthe, Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 1
Slandaar, Town Neighbor, died Night 4
Grimgroove, Town Neighbor, died Night 5
Ztife, Mafia Goon, lynched Day 3
Shamrock replaces Nachopappa who replaced thegooner, Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 6
Baezu, Town Odd-Night Cop, died Night 3
Nachomamma8 replaces Kattaze, Vanilla Townie, died Night 1
ChannelDelibird replaces Red Dragon, Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 4
StupendousMan replaces Miss Stranger who replaced BP, Mafia Neighbor, lynched Day 5
Lucky2u replaces chernobylcitybus, Vanilla Townie, endgamed
Elyse, Town Miller Jack of All Trades, died Night 2
SunnyDays replaces Future, Mafia Two-Shot Roleblocker, survives


Game 1463
Moderator: N
Current Update: Mafia Win

Players
yessiree, Town Gunsmith, died Night 4
Generic, Mafia Neighborizer, survives
Mutleyddmc replaces levio, Vanilla Townie, endgamed
Kid A, Vanilla Townie, died Night 5
DCLXVI, Town Bodyguard, died Night 1
Bub Bidderskins, Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 2
Alabaska J, Town Even-Night Vigilante, died Night 3
NotThePope, Mafia Goon, lynched Day 1
TMTOLBTWNTOF, Vanilla Townie, died Night 2
Smudger, Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 3
RadiantCowbells, Vanilla Townie, died Night 2
Alduskkel replaces absta101, Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 6
Om of the Nom replaces Kingsrush, Mafia Goon, lynched Day 5


Mini 1511: Insurgency Emergency
Moderator: JacobSavage replaced Fegelein
Current Update: Mafia Win

Players
Elyse, Mafia Doctor, Survived
Albert B. Rampage, Vanilla Townie, Lynched Day 1
aphix, Mafia Goon, Survived
Titus replaced Ant_to_the_Max, Town Neighbour, Died Night 3
Skelda, Mafia Neighbour, Lynched Day 3
Kublai Khan, Vanilla Townie, Died Night 3
implosion, Two shot Vigilante, Died Night 4
Humble Poirot, Vanilla Townie, Lynched Day 4
Fusion, Town Jailkeeper, Died Night 1
EspeciallytheLies replaced AzBlueM, Vanilla Townie, Endgamed Night 4
evilpacman18, Town Gunsmith, Died Night 2
havingfitz, Vanilla Townie, Endgamed Night 4
RachMarie replaced gorkat, Vanilla Townie, Lynched Day 2


Mini 1666: The Reds
Moderator: pisskop
Current Update: Mafia Win

Players
dragonspawn, Town Tracker, lynched day 2
MonkeyMan576, Vanilla Townie, died night 1
Prolasped Brain replaced Zerediah, Mafia Roleblocker, lynched day 3
Riabi, One-Shot Bulletproof Townie, died night 4
Kitty Galore, Mafia Neighbor, survived
Titus replaced VictorDeAngelo, Town Cop, died night 3
RandomActs, Vanilla Townie, lynched day 4
TheSoldier, Town One-Shot Vigilante Neighbor, endgamed day 5
Lapsa, Vanilla Townie, endgamed day 5
Terrador, Vanilla Townie, lynched day 5
Drixx, Vanilla Townie, lynched day 1
Slandaar, Town Neighbor, died night 2
Shinobi replaced Keybladewielder, Mafia Godfather, survived


Mini 1685: BooneyToonz II - Looney Tunes
Moderator: Boonskiies
Current Update: Mafia Win

Players
Pegasus30 replaced DrDolittle, Town Innocent Child, endgamed day 5
Aneninen, Town Vengeful Neighbor, lynched day 2
BlueBloodedToffee, Vanilla Townie, lynched day 4
pisskop, Town Neighbor, killed day 2
massive, Mafia Neighbor, survived
Varsoon, Town Neighor, survived
Zebulin, Town Neighbor, lynched day 1
Salamence20, Mafia Goon, lynched day 3
RadiantCowbells, Vanilla Townie, endgamed day 5
Mainez, Town Jailkeeper, died night 3
T S O replaced Big Bad Bull, Vanilla Townie, lynched day 5
BBmolla, Town Neighbor, died night 4
evilpacman18, Mafia Encryptor, survived


Mini 1733: Jurassic Monkey
Moderator: Monkeyman576/Farside22
Current Update: Mafia Win

Playerlist
Scorpious, Town Commuter, lynched day 3
Wanderer-nl, Mafia Neighborizer, lynched day 5
The Archmage Ludicrous, Vanilla Townie, endgamed day 6
pistachi0n, Vanilla Townie, lynched day 6
All Alone, Vanilla Townie, died night 5
MarioManiac4, Vanilla Town, lynched day 2
ICEninja, Town Cop, died night 3
Garmr, Vanilla Town, died night 2
Syndesis, Town Innocent Child, died night 4
3dicerolling, Mafia Godfather, survived
Davsto, Mafia Goon, lynched day 1
Firebringer, Vanilla Town, died night 1
Alchemist21 replaced Diego1487, Town Universal Backup, lynched day 4

Mini Normal 1897
Alive (3)
Boonskiies, Mafia Goon, survives and wins.
Something_Smart, Mafia Goon, survives and wins.
horrordude0215 Jinzou, Mafia Neighborizer, survives and wins.

Eliminated (10)
Transcend, Town 1-shot Weak Friendly Neighbor, lynched Day 1
TwoFace, Vanilla Townie, killed Night 1
I Am Innocent, Vanilla Townie, killed Night 1
aronagrundy, Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 2
Eddie Cane, Town 2-shot Vigilante, killed Night 2
hapahauli, Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2
eagerSnake, lmays1999 Town Watcher, lynched Day 3
ThinkBig, Vanilla Townie, endgamed Day 3
Darkshadow64540, Vanilla Townie, endgamed Day 3
rb, Vanilla Townie, endgamed Day 3


It's an aspect of balance that simply isn't fully accounted for in terms of overall site meta.

(peanut gallery can't shut up it seems :lol: )

PS as a side note, the ability for players to pick their partners is i think pro-scum, since scum can choose people that they think they can manipulate, and that's probably more reliable than town knowing who they can legitimately sort in a hood.
Last edited by mhsmith0 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #87 (isolation #11) » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:40 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

Except that scum generally DOES want to shoot obvtown. Scum generally want to kill people who are problems due to

1) Being a PR
2) Being obvtown and unlynchable
3) Having good/dangerous reads

Of course WIFOM plays and the like do happen, and multiball gives more space for such things. But it's still true that people who are obvtown tend to be bullet magnets, which means that scum don't particularly want to be "obvtown" in multiball, despite the fact that being obvtown is generally to their benefit in single ball.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #114 (isolation #12) » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:07 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 113, Firebringer wrote:
In post 110, Ircher wrote:Town Ascetic Jailkeeper
Town Ascetic Roleblocker
Town Ascetic Tracker

Mafia Ascetic Encryptor.

10:3 Setup.
Scum sided.
The Town roles basically can't do shit.
Unless mafia ascetic gets lynched earlier it's going to be tough on town.
Town roles are barely claimable, and prone to seeming counter claims, and the ascetic scum is op against all three town roles. Otoh when ascetic dies, town probably crushes if it's PRs are still alive. So basically super swingy on a single scum role.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #122 (isolation #13) » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:17 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 121, Ircher wrote:Town Tracker
Town Follower
Town Ascetic Jailkeeper

10:3 Setup.
Probably ok. Ascetic and jailkeeper can mess with the tracker/follower (ascetic if they target him, jailkeeper if he targets them) with nonzero chances of PRs getting guilties, and a SLIGHT chance of saving two nightkills. I suspect it's a very little bit on the scumsided for a mini normal, but otoh there are three legit claimable roles, each of which can be helpful. I think I'd pass it.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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