Newbie 1806 - The Ffery Garden: GAME OVER!

[UnaBombaH]

Hi all, gonna read the whole thread within few hours.
I'll try to take some notes/write up my susp.list, so maybe I'll notice I'm at a different place with my ideas than where you guys are now.

That ought to be helpful, right?

[UnaBombaH]

Ok, done reading.

Starting off with how happy I am with RC being conf.town. I used to lurk-read games on this forum before I joined and started (recently)playing, and he has become one of my favorites (and easy to spot with that avatar).
I also find him as a very hard player to read, so it's a relief to be able to just follow his lead.

And now for the real kicker (atleast for me).

RC made the same reads/connections I did considering WhyMafia/Perse.

When I started reading I made short notes, and tried to form scum-couples.
After L1 and NK1 most of my PR/scum reads deleted, and at least halved most all of the couples. For example Fykus/WhyMafia.

The only pair that survived as whole to this day was WhyMafia/Perse.

And in his post #446 RC noticed their possible synergy too.
The only thing that actually made me question that theory, was how obviously WhyMafia tried to pin Perse as obv.town.

Also, this doesn't mean I don't have other scumreads too, but I can't see any obvious couples outside of this one.

Wheme and Miles just confuse me for now, so I would love to hear others thoughts now that I'm here.

[UnaBombaH]

Also something I want to point out, that may or may not come into play at some point: I live in Finland, so my timezone is +2GMT (+3 now because of DST).
It seems that the majority(?) of players hail from NA, so we have something like 8-10 hours time difference on average?
Remember this especially when we are closing in on deadlines.

[UnaBombaH]

Just hammer him

These kind of actions always worry me.

This is either scum playing VERY carelessly and see-through, or a townie making questionably aggressive remarks.

In any scenario, WHY would you do this WhemeStar?
Town only takes advantages from longer days, so wanting the day to end quickly is very scummy, even in cases where scum would be 100% locked.

We should take the time we have and try to build cases for WhyMafias scumpartner (in the event he flips scum).

[UnaBombaH]

I had a revelation, so I re-read most of the game.

I really feel like we have a good situation here as Town.
Going for the worst case scenario, should we lynch WhyMafia and he flips town, we still have one conf.town to lead us, and by PoE I feel we could pretty much clear Perse. (at least to me he is susp. mainly by proxy)

To me, Wheme and Whale seem like the obvious duo in the scenario where WM/Perse isn't scum, but RC seems to have a VERY strong townread on Whale.
Meaning Miles/Wheme then?

I'm not sure how RC reads this slot with Cankles playing very quiet almost all game, and then me liking to post a lot and try to deduce shit, but from a VT perspective this situation in game doesn't seem bad.

I'll sheep RC today, but my suspect list differs on Whale/Miles, for now, at least.

You guys are letting scum waste your time on pre-flip associations because I'm town. This discussion is absolutely useless if you all are speculating her alignment based on me

Is this scum trying to bait newbies into quicklynching himself?
But then why didn't he just selfvote to end the day quickly?

A question I have for RC/Miles/Whale: What goals could be driven through this post by WhyMafia?

[UnaBombaH]

BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE HALF THE GAME IS CONF BIASING ME
THIS IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS

The only reason I haven't voted for you yet, is because I don't want a hammer for anyone yet.

I actually had no conf.bias from reading this game in one go, and building MY OWN suspicions towards you.
My "conf.bias" stepped in only when RC noted how Perse acted around your wagon, and I had already arrived at the theory myself that IF you are scum, Perse would be your buddy.

Please give me something to work with, and I might change my mind on your alignment.
RC just seems to be set on you already..

[UnaBombaH]

Oh, and in case someone ends the day quickly while I'm away:

I forgot to make an enigmatic comment regarding The Revelation I mentioned in my #518.

If no one acts against RC during D2 or D3, I can trust him fully when he says he is BP.

This comment is meant for that small %-chance we have one scared townie who doesn't know what to do at this point.

This comment should also show RC that I am really working for town, because if you realize what I meant above, you agree I shouldn't share it with everyone.

[UnaBombaH]

VOTE: Unabombah

sorta think Cankles was scum now

I was waiting for this to happen.
I'm used to getting targeted for my upfront play.

I'll turn it to you RC - in a world where you didn't claim BP, how would you convince people about your alignment?
From a newbies perspective your playstyle seems very scummy and destructive, I for one doubted your alignment before you claimed BP.

[UnaBombaH]

I meant in this particular game.
Or am I thinking this backwards?

Did you excercise such aggressive play BECAUSE you are the BP?
Because I find it weird (trying to understand you).
A) You don't have to fear being NK'd.
But why would you be their target, if you seem scummy to the rest of us? Scum would want to keep you around as an easy lynch?

B) You can just claim BP the moment you get blamed for acting scummy (which I feel you did this game)
But then why play scummy in the first place? Why not play goody two shoes and TRY to get NK'd? Or is this playstyle all about going to LyLo with BP holding the hammer?

[UnaBombaH]

???

I didn't act scummy. I was never scummy in this game. It's not scummy that I have trouble articulating my reads sometimes. It's just newer players conflating pro-town with towny.

Oh, ok. Maybe my interpretation on what is scummy is flawed then.

And I don't want to waste my time on "questioning" you, since you are currently the only conf. town.

I'm just trying to learn how to read people based on text.
There are times when someone suddenly says they "read X as town", and I'm out here scratching my head and trying my hardest to find anything to read that way.
You have been very vocal about reading WhyMafia as scum, and while I got the same feeling, I'm not as sure about it as you seemed to be.

Like I admitted above, I suffered from conf. bias in that YOU pointed out the possibility I had in my mind about WhyMafia/Perse team.
And since you are the conf.town its easy for a newbie like me to just follow your lead, but I'm starting to question whether you (and me too!) might have made a mistake with WhyMafia.

[UnaBombaH]

What is going on with this game?

Is it scummy to try ask RC put to words what he is doing here?
I said I grew to admire his play by reading games he was in, but I know realize playing with him feels rather terrifying..
Like someone has a gun with one bullet in it, and he is pointing it wildly around..!

What baffles me the most is how hard he pressured WhyMafia, and now seemingly is willing to relieve the pressure?
Also the way he just declares that Wheme isn't lynched today..WHY?

I'm leaning more towards Wheme being obv.scum, but I'm hesitant in putting my vote on him (in case he really is town, and scum quickhammers or RC flips out )
And for the same reasons I am now hesitant to put my vote on my first #1 candidate WhyMafia.
I can't even sheep our one conf.town because he is voting me!

I usually think sitting on your vote and not committing is scummy play, but currently I'm more afraid about the potential abuse that could happen if I vote.

Please, anyone, give me something to do! (bored at work)

[UnaBombaH]

My own thoughts on UnaBombaH is that he's kind of sketch, but not really enough to overcome my townread of Cankles.

I'm actually interested in hearing what makes me look "sketch" in your eyes.
Is it being very vocal and upfront?

[UnaBombaH]

If you vote me RC is gonna flip out so be careful!

Was joke about RC flipping out. I don't actually care too much for that, I'm just worried of the situation I'm in with my unplaced vote.

WhyMafia (2): WhaleBarnicle, WhemeStar
WhemeStar (2): WhyMafia, PersephoneSidekick
UnaBombaH (1): RadiantCowbells
WhaleBarnicle (1): Miles Edgeworth

This is the situation as of now.
What bothers me about my earlier feeling about WhyMafia/Perse, is that they have a counterwagon against you, JUST THE TWO OF THEM.
I'm not sure if scumbuddies would be so obviously teaming.
So I would feel more happy voting you,

simply because I can't see anyone quickhammering you.

BUT. BUT. BUT.
My initial feeling was to vote WhyMafia, but there was a real danger of quickhammering, and I do not want that even if he flips scum.
Like I said earlier, your posts confuse me, and I was worried about giving you a chance to hammer.
Good thing I didn't vote when I was going to, considering he went to L-1 momentarily and YOU asked for a hammer before RC backed off to give more time to us.

Now I feel like I'm in a situation where voting for the wrong wagon might end the day, because I can't trust you OR WhyMafia/Perse.

I'm feeling very neutral about Whale, and strongly townleaning Miles currently.

RC is chaotic-good-town.

[UnaBombaH]

I would much prefer not to be lynched, and I'm going sleep soon. Please don't give anyone a chance to hammer, and I'll be around tomorrow to answer anything you want.

[UnaBombaH]

Miles I've been thinking, and I support your case on Whale
UNVOTE: All
Ugh
3 scummy players
Who to choose? Decisions decisions.

Who would you say are the three and why? Do you consider me scummy? And if you do, is it based on Cankles or my actions? Or maybe both (in a different way)?

I'm asking because I consider this a training environment, and I have yet to be scum in a game on this site.
Yet I have been read as scum previously too.
I don't like playing any differently from how I do in face-to-face -Mafia, because I would love to pull NK's my way as VT, but somehow in this text-based format I come off wrong.
Don't know what it is, I honestly write what I think, and try to advance the game for Town.

On another note: I like how Miles is trying to build a reasonable case towards Whale, whom I didn't find scummy before, but now that he isn't straight up answering to the call, I'm becoming more suspicious too.

[UnaBombaH]

Trying to (again) do something productive here, and avoid doing anything productive IRL, I went over Whales posts.
I tried to dissect his opening post, leaving out his analysis on RC. I'd like to hear anyones opinions on it.
This is also good practice for quote-formatting I think, lets see how it works out.

In order:

PersephoneSidekick (Peri):

This is probably my biggest townread right now. Back in post 15 Peri warned about us putting someone at L-2 quickly. From a scum perspective this doesn't make sense since if we accidentally caused a quick mislynch without realizing it, we'd be down two people going into day 2 with very little information to go off of. If she were scum WITH Ciara (the person who was at L-2), then this seems like it would be a pretty forward defense and would get sniffed out pretty quickly if either one of them ended up flopping up scum. Then, what also struck me as town was in post 44. All of the questions that were asked were decent probing types of questions I thought. I personally didn't feel like there was really a lot of misguiding or suggestion in them.

My biggest concern for you is that you're almost too towny? I haven't really seen a lot wrong with the way you are playing, which ironically is almost concerning. Because of that, even though you are my biggest town read right now, don't sit to comfortably there cause I still have my eyes on you. For now though, I don't mind.

So if Whale were to be lynched and he flips scum, is this where I start to look for the accomplice? Funnily enough, his strongest townread is the one guy I sort of suspected, even though it was mainly by proxy via WhyMafia suspicions. Note how Whale has to put something negative about him too, but doesn't find anything but "maybe too towny".
So now I have another possible scum-duo in my mind, it being Perse/Whale.

King Cankles (Cankles):

So far, one of my bigger contenders for scum spots. Let's see here...post 29 he suggests that we have a nolynch Day 1.
----------------------
At least his story is consistent, but I find it fundamentally flawed to think that nothing important has transpired during the first day. Hiding from that fact and not taking an active position in figuring it out is either cowardly, or scummy at best.

After this, people finally start realizing just how little Cankles has really contributed to this, and I think that I really appeciate RadCow and Peri for point this out. Fykus went along with this little train too iirc, and what Cnakles said was just too little in terms of a justification. He still dodged a lot of questions, still really refused to take up much of an opinion about anything, and only promised to post more tomorrow (after he can consult his more experienced scum buddy for advice on what to say?... ). Too little too late, and if votes is what is going to have to get you to talk, then I would really really love to hear you sing. VOTE: Cankles. That's also L-1 for anybody playing along at home.

Many players will obviously see this differently, but the way it seems to me (this slot being in focus), I feel like Whale is just hopping on the wagon.
I do not like how he really gives the explanation ready for Cankles, and then says its not enough of a reason.
I edited out the part where Whale explains why no-lynch on D1 is stupid, but then again, WHY did he deem it necessary to write it out? It had been already explained to Cankles, and everyone else, so it seems like an attempt to act helpful where no help was needed anymore.

Then he keeps belittling Cankles few arguments before placing his vote on him. And notice here,

HE PLACES THE L-1 VOTE

, and makes sure to jokingly point it out to avoid scummyness,

BUT HIDES IT IN THE MIDDLE OF A HUGE WALL OF TEXT.

And to make it even more confusing, he next votes for himself in the very same post, basically revoking the L-1

and then revoting in the next post without bringing up the L-1, now that he had a good chance to make sure everyone would notice it.

PestoSwami (Salami):

I have a bit of a hard time reading this guy as well. I get that we are all new here and all, but it seems almost like he asks questions to meet his "posting quota" or something like that and also doesn't really tackle into any real situations. This could be someone new just really overwhelmed, or a scum feigning a dumb card. I'd see him as a potential lurker scum if that second one is the case, but obviously this is a bit more circumstantial than for Cankles who has admitted to playing this game in some form before (which is why I place my vote on Cankles and not Salami). I'd like to her more from you more.

Question for you: How did you hear about this website? What experience do you have with the game, and how can we trust you saying that? A general reads list would be nice too, just do not vote for Cankles right away without stating an intent to do so, I still want to hear if he comes up with anything good.

I'm starting to get tired of typing by this point so these may get a bit shorter/lazy over time. If you want more details, I can provide them upon request.

So this is Miles-slot. Whale doesn't have any reads on him, good or bad, which is why I feel like there is no reason to assume they would be buddies in any scenario.
Miles is also the one currently driving the Whale-investigation, so I feel good about them really being on different sides of the fence.
Also worthy to note at this point: in the scenario where Whale is scum, he either included his buddy in the easier, more clear reads (making it 100% Perse), or tries to give himself an easier out here.
If he is about to still mention his scumbuddy and provide reads, but doesn't feel 100% confident in doing so, that last sentence would be a great excuse for lacking upfront opinions.

WhyMafia (?Maf):

My read on him is actually slight scum. He's been a bit more active than some of my other scum reads though, so I'd put him in that active mafia role a little bit more. Now that being said, active mafia I would still expect to stand a bit more off into the corner, but will pipe up every now and again to say something. The catch is in that something, and I feel like whenever they would say something, it would always be at an arms distance so as to not give out free ammunition that can be used against them later. Check back at ?Maf's posts, and I don't feel like very many of them are actually saying anything either. He either pushes off his opinions as "just theory" which gives him deniability, or says that his reads are the same as someone else's, which also provides room for doubt should something not turn his way in the future. He blames it on a scummy tone that he just naturally has, but even that is putting his bad behavior on something that is "outside of his realm of control". I see it as him just saying, "Sorry if I seem scummy guys, it's just who I am! Take it or leave it I guess..." This is my biggest scum read other than Cankles. If I could double vote for them both I would, but for now I'm not sure enough to really vote for him and the opportunity is perfect to place some pressure on my other big scum read.

Question for you: What do you think of me?

Here I found most value in my "research". Because Whale basically confirms the biggest reasons I had for scumreading WhyMafia. He feels like a "natural scum" who says his tone is just off, always gets pinned scum etc. But what I found interesting is that Whale states his case on WhyMafia so that he seems like Whales biggest scumread. Yet he votes for Cankles (me). Miles already pointed out how Whale dropped his case for my slot, so I'm not gonna repeat that. He also doesn't have a good question for his second big scumread, shouldn't he try to make WhyMafia speak and give some hard hitting questions?
So then what do we have here?
Scenario A: Whale is scum, WhyMafia is scum. So this would be called distancing, right? And if we really stop to think about it, this is exactly what he would want to do.
Say nothing positive about WhyMafia,

but don't vote him

.
Scenario B: Whale is scum, WhyMafia isn't. This would be Whale preparing his secondary wagon should Cankles survive the lynch, right? Voting towards the likely new wagon, but keeping his actions open for later.

I'm sort of leaning towards scenario B now, because I don't think Whale would be bussing his partner so eagerly D2. Unless it's a tactic WhyMafia discussed with him at night? Whale found his confidence quite suddenly..

Maybe it's a bit of a stretch. So yet again, I sort of see WhyMafia and Whale on different sides of a fence, the same way I see Whale and Miles.

Fykus (Fykus, sorry you don't a cool nickname, your name is short enough already!):

I'm gonna be honest you're another offender of the whole post without saying anything important thing, but I like that you have a townread on Peri, I like that you see soemthing wrong with Cankles, and I like how you responded to being in L-1. Neutral to town from you, but I would really like to see more.

Question: What do you think of a ?Maf and Cankles team?

This is a point I'll have to give to Whale: he said he townread Fykus and didn't take part in the wagon that got him lynched. Which would mean that his partner PROBABLY did.
And if I take that list and just paste it here, it says: PersephoneSidekick, King Cankles, Miles Edgeworth, RadiantCowbells, mhsmith0.
Three are confirmed town (myself to me, obv), and the other two are Perse (read my thoughts above) and Miles (read my thoughts above).
This actually warms my gut feeling of Perse potentially being a very GOOD scumplayer.

Cira24 (Cira) and MHSmith0 (MHS)

:

I'm putting you guys together because I have a general town read for you as it stands. I think a lot of that stuff at the beginning was mostly theatrics, and everything else was mostly town just looking for scum and coming up empty both ways. Cira has been a bit quiet as of late, but I think he said at some point it was IRL stuff getting in the way so that's fine as long as he makes up for it. Also, MHS has just been probing pretty well I think from what I can tell.

Questions for both of you: Analyze this post and tell me what you think.

This doesn't give me much, except that Whale townread Cira, now Wheme, who has been a confusing case for me so far in this game. Nothing much to comment here.

[UnaBombaH]

Yeah I dug through some meta. Stuff that I thought was outside of his scum range wasn't, and his town game is way better than this.

VOTE: WhyMafia

DOVAHKIIN DRAGONBORN

THIS IS L-1, PLEASE DON'T HAMMER WITHOUT DECLARING INTENT AND GETTING ACCEPTANCE FROM THE REST OF US.

I guess this is RC being RC?

[UnaBombaH]

I guess this is you being scumpartners with WhyMafia

Oh no, I slipped??

I want at least one good post more from him before we end the day.
I'm also interested in Miles case on Whale.

I'm not in a hurry to go to sleep.

[UnaBombaH]

Never reaching the end~
Letters I've written~
Never meaning to send~

Also, I don't recognize the lyrics you sometimes use.. what kind of music do you listen to?

[UnaBombaH]

I want at least one good post more from him before we end the day

Why

I want to lynch you so badly for posting that.
Maybe give us some content before going back to lurking?

[UnaBombaH]

Never reaching the end~
Letters I've written~
Never meaning to send~

Also, I don't recognize the lyrics you sometimes use.. what kind of music do you listen to?

That was Nights in White Satin by the moody blues. Not my favourite song, it just happened to get there.

I am currently listening to The Police. I listen to a lot of rock, alternative, some metal, some pop, some rap, idk pretty much everything.

Some of my favourite bands are Queen, REM, and Imagine Dragons.

Which hit you more, great lyrics or melodies?
I listen to pretty much everything nowadays too, but I really love finnish folk metal and melodic death metal. There you can find the combination of lyrics and melodies that pretty much only classic rock has offered me elsewhere.

[UnaBombaH]

I got you covered.

VOTE: WhyMafia

Now, I get to see what my favorite suspects do when given the power to end the day..

Also, this is back to L-1, don't hammer without declaring intent. Your moves Whale/Perse.

[UnaBombaH]

I'm going to sleep, I hope WhyMafia is alive 8 hours from now and him/Whale/Perse would write something to chew..

[UnaBombaH]

Sorry RC VOTE: Una

Wait what?

If WhemeStar is Town, he is trolling hard. And his trolling isnt funny in the least, so it's bad trolling.
Basis for a lynch?

Why did you put your foot down RC??

Please keep us on D2 until tomorrow, I have to go sleep nao.

[UnaBombaH]

OK, many smaller quotes coming soon, I love that people have been posting more.
I don't like the way people read my posts, but that is something I have to live with, I guess.
To me the tables seems more set now, though.

Perses last posts strike me as "panic-y", in the sense that SHE is trying very very hard to start a wagon on me.
And what always pets me the wrong way, is when it happens during the time I'm sleeping.
Which is actually why I always make it a point to place my accusations before going off, and then making it clear for everyone I'm going offline for many hours.
In this specific case I think Perse became more aggressive, and tried to quickly find wheels for her wagon. Not maybe being as hopeful as to get a quick lynch, but definitely would've wanted for me to wake up to a L-1 or something?

Second thought, if Una's "favorite suspects" are me and Whale why is he voting WhyMafia? Especially so soon after 586 panicking about the possibility? I can easily see him as playing a dangerous distancing game, hoping to switch to Whale later with all the arguments presented in 585. If Whale is town I actually think Una/Why is pretty likely. Or just Una; it could just be that Una doesn't care much who is lynched out of me, Whale and Why. Which leaves Wheme or Whale as his partner. Since Wheme doesn't make sense as a bussing, it would have to be Una/Miles.

Because admittedly, I felt a bit lost when RC switched his vote to me, after I myself had become fairly certain WhyMafia was scum and RC had sniffed him out before anyone else.
I trusted RC's judgement, so when he switched his vote for me, I had to do some brain-racking, and come up with my alternative scenarios.
And I feel better after doing that, because now I have a more clear view on why Perse could be scum even if WhyMafia isn't. Whale redeemed himself a lot in my eyes with his comeback posts, going to write him next.

Una, for the reasons I gave in 611. Tldr is that his page 24 is scummy as hell.

So..what reasons did you give? Saying my page 24 is scummy as hell..why?
Because I actually posted and tried to find reasoning in this game?
You gave 0 actual gameplay reasons, saying someones "page is scummy" is the easiest out.
I challenge you to point out actual gameplay pattern I have in your eyes, that drives a scum-wincon.
If you find "my angle", I will try to defend a case, until you do, I can't take your accusations seriously.

Anyway. Whale, are you up for lynching Una/Cankles with me?

Classy. If this wasn't you trying to quickly rally up a wagon, I don't know what is.
It's like you went knocking on doors where you knew someone who has just had his car stolen, offering free bus tickets.

Look, you said yourself that Una was Why's most likely scumpartner. Doesn't that still give you a good chance?

The one part I'm not sure of, is whether this means you might be ready to bus WhyMafia today, to "keep yourself clean".
If RC and I get WhyMafia lynched and he is your scumbuddy, you would still try to wagon me tomorrow.

[UnaBombaH]

To some extent, but to be honest his replacement isn't helping the case much at all.

I'm sad you think I haven't helped my cause, but I hope I get to help the overall game state before I go I'll try to quote you somewhat on your latest posts, but there was so much I'm gonna miss something I liked anyway, so I'll just say that I REALLY liked your #635. Good comeback, if I may say so, and actually made me even more adamant on WhyMafia/Perse.

Also also, I'm past the point where RadCow already claimed to be a BP: has literally anyone considered the fact that was a lie? I know that another PR could claim right then and there to prove him wrong, but considering that the only other role that is possible in this setup is Doctor, I don't think that would actually happen.

If a doctor came forward and claimed, their power would literally be useless as they would undoubtedly be targeted in the night and killed. What good is that then unless doctors can indefinitely protect themselves in the night (can they?)?

I think RadCow is town, and I don't necessarily think he is lying about his PR, but I wonder why nobody has brought this up by this point. If it has and I haven't read it yet, sorry lol

This is something we should not discuss until D3, I think. Go see my ISO, you are not the only one who thought of it. All I'm asking is that we do not poke this one thing yet, for it

might

solve the game N2/D3.

I'm not really sure what to feel about this. I feel like thinking about this possibility makes you either Town really using logic and taking nothing for granted (appreciated), or you would be scum for wanting to point this chance out now, but I don't want to write that scenario up now. Scum can come up with it themselves, I have already gone through this scenario in my head for days, and I think we win that trade anyways.

All these posts seem really forced to me. Every single one of them talks as through the perspective of town. Lots of "we as town" and "from a VT perspective" type of stuff. Town doesnt really talk like this, and it's a nice way to potentially frame what someone might think when they are reading this post. Sort of like some sort of subliminal suggestion almost? I know people always say they are town, but this seems different and I think raises some suspicion. Thoughts ne1?

Many players (as Town or scum) might not write like this, but I do. I always do. I'm a salesman/store manager in real life, so every day is full of bargaining and sales tactics for me. When I play Mafia, I never try to sell myself. I try to PROVE my points, I try to deduce outcomes. I feel like in this textbased format it might be my downfall, but I honestly write like this because I want to keep my scenarios honest.
If you ever see me writing "X is scum, mark my words, no doubt about it", I'm either very sure, or I have lost my cool for whatever reason.
Until that point, I will give each scenario a flavor of "IF X is scum, then..."
You already called me scummy in one post for me being unsure or safe or whatever, but that is just how I write.

[UnaBombaH]

Because you jumped so hard onto the idea of accusing Whale with a string of really terrible and forced arguments. Probably to defend WhyMafia, because you were afraid that RC was making too much progress.

And yeah, I'm pushing you kind of frantically. I finally feel like I have the beginnings of a clue whats going on and tons of people are online at once and I'm excited to get something done already. I should probably calm down because we have 6 days left. But my health has also been terrible and I'm kind of viscerally scared I won't have a clear enough head to contribute again before deadline.

NOT GAME RELATED SPOILER, DIRECTED AT PERSE:

Spoiler:

I hope your health gets better. No idea what you are going through, but I hope you're getting enjoyment out of this game. I have had my best friend (whom I love as much as my wife), my step-dad and my grandparents all be at the hospital within short time spans from each other, and they all ranged from potential Crohns disease/tumor to brain aneurysm to critical pleural effusion. I got so exhausted from all of that mixed with work I was in a car accident in the middle of a clear day. March 2017 was one of the worst months of my life..and now I'm rolling high, and I have things to look forward to in life.

I hope you get better.

Ok, back to game. My post about Whale, be it very long, was pretty much to just do something. Get something rolling. Also to clear my own thoughts.
When I decide I want to try and force a case against someone, either of two happens: I notice how easy it actually is (susp. building) or I realize how hard and forced it is (actually clears the susp. in my mind a little, but I still post it to share content.)
It seems people are back to posting, so I probably won't need to do a forced case anytime soon, but I encourage everyone to try it.
Notice here:

I never voted for Whale because I wasn't sure of his scummyness at all.

I was just trying to build my own way of scumhunting, and to create discussion.
Like said before, if anyone of you are bored, I challenge you to make a similar post about my slot.
Cankles seemed like a very nervous newbie, and while I'm a noob myself, I don't panic like he did.
Nor do I like to play lurky like he did.
When I'm VT, I march to the front to shout and take aggro.
I'd love to be NK'd for the team to win, but I'd hate to be lynched.

[UnaBombaH]

I'd also like to point out one thing: lynching me wouldn't open up the game for Town in any way.
You would lynch a VT, and I doubt my "accomplice" could be anyone except WhyMafia. (?) So we go to D3 wondering how WhyMafia is still alive, and RC still wanting to lynch him.

I don't see a scenario where WhyMafia gets NK'd, the same way I don't see Wheme NK'd EVER.
Those are the two candidates a scum would want to take to LyLo, in the scenario where either or both of them isn't scum.

Think about that before starting another wagon and flailing more.

[UnaBombaH]

You're argument is that town!WhyMafia and town!Wheme are the least bad people to mislynch today because they'd probably get lynched tomorrow anyway?

I agree that if we don't lynch WhyMafia today then we probably will tomorrow. RC will vote for him and then either the mafia will quickhammer or his guilt will be proven by the fact that they didn't. Which means that if WhyMafia is innocent we only get one chance basically.

So we are picking whether to lynch a non-WhyMafia person today or tomorrow. If we do it today we have 5 people to guess among. If we do it tomorrow we will have only 4. Since RC is bulletproof, mafia can't help but kill a possible suspect, and everybody has serious accusations against them at this point other than RC.

So even if WhyMafia is innocent, mislynching him is inevitable and it's better if it happens today than tomorrow? Is that the argument?

I'm iffy to just say "yes", so I'll drag it out a bit more. I hope people really hear me out (and I know this will grind someone the wrong way, especially the people I say we should lynch, but try to understand the point):

So lets say we lynch ANYONE except WhyMafia/Whemestar.
(and btw, I would still lynch Wheme because I haven't seen ANY gamesolving from him, but I'm currently trusting both, my own initial reads and RC, on WhyMafia. I also dislike the idea of WhyMafia/Wheme-team. Feels not right.)

We might find a surprising scum, but since the 3rd potential lynch outside of those two is seemingly me, we won't.
So we lose a townie, and scum gets a NK.

D3 starts with (in my mind) RC-Wheme-WhyMafia-Perse +Whale/Miles. (no matter who we lynch, Wheme/WhyMafia/Me should be kept alive from scum perspective, I think. We are the "easy scums" to point out.)
Now at this point, we already have a 2-in a row-LyLo-situation.
RC would most likely(?) rage at how far WhyMafia has gotten. Alternatively we would have had some shenanigans ending D2 with someone making susp. quickhammer or something, and that derails the attention yet again.
But the problem becomes then, we need a right lynch or we lose already. No more gut feelings. Who would be the OBVIOUS choice at this point? Because it would sort of have to be obvious at that point.
Because at that point nothing is easier for scum, than to stop providing good content. They can just tunnel whoever they have "suspected" earlier, and not provide any reads/opinions on the rest. Which leads to 2v2 votes and RC holding the hammer?
And even if that is not the situation, scum can just hop onto one momentarily misplaced vote and win the game.
Dragging on the scenario any longer doesn't seem reasonable to me, but the point is that WhyMafia "should" be the lynch every day, yet he might not be. Which creates a twisted scenario for our BP - the earliest scumread, or possibly a "townlike"?
It all becomes WIFOM at that point, because either scum picks a goody two-shoes to f3 as in "he is the mastermind who knows you will lynch me", or the scummier looking player IS SPEAKING THE TRUTH.

Now lets say we lynch WhyMafia and somehow he flips town.
At this point Wheme becomes obv. scum. (atleast to me) I assume there are others who might not see Wheme/WhyMafia as a team, but have to see Whemes contribution to the game is nearing 0.
And at this point his partner would have to be either Perse/Miles/Whale, simply because of how Wheme has played.
He has been the confuser, the disruptor, and someone more structured and "smart-y" has been guiding the game. And that person would most likely be found in his "wagon" (which wasn't much when I re-checked it), which means it would be..Perse.

So currently the way I see the game, the remaining three lynches would be WhyMafia->Perse->Wheme(prob. not needed), or in an another universe Wheme->Perse->WhyMafia(prob. not needed).
I'm going to trust Whale for now, I think his comeback to Miles accusing him was solid. He read my points too, and seemed genuine. He became my highest townread with those posts.
I'm reserving the smallest of doubts for Miles, basically I do townread him. But in the scenario where HE is scum, I think the only way we get him to come out, is if he lives to final day with RC and a one of the above. And at that point it's still going to be hard to catch someone like him (don't get confused, not saying he is scum).
I'm just automatically suspicious of someone who seems the towniest to me, because a good scumplayer would be thriving towards that.

And by that, we arrive to you Perse. Yes, writing directly to you.
You have managed to get a townread from most of the players (if not everyone), and that initially made me notice you outside of townleaning.
You have become my #2 suspect by proxy of other players - you are "the accomplice" in most all of my scenarios.
Which in a weird way makes you my favorite suspect.
You have, however played your slot well, no matter what the alignment.
If you are scum, you have played so well, that you have not been wagoned once, and yet have remained more or less active all the time.
In a similar note, if you are town, I am the only one stupid enough to seriously suspect you..!

[UnaBombaH]

I've been re-reading this game for the past ~4 hours and trying to make sense of other possibilities out of WhyMafia->Perse->Wheme(?).
These extractions are from Miles post before Whale made his big posts.

Should I never update my reads, never change my reads, deathtunnel whoever my first scumread is until they get lynched?

Hell no you shouldn't.

You just went from apparently not caring anymore about WhyMafia and wanting to lynch Cankles's slot, to wanting to kill WhyMafia today.

I'm not trying to meatride RC (any more than I already have), but I thought it obvious that he is playing his game all the time, no matter what his vote says at the moment.
He swapped to me, not only because I apparently am somewhat scummy-read to most of you, but also because RC is looking for reactions.
Not just from me, but from my potential scumbuddy.

And look, in fairness to you, it's not

just

you. Peri over there is waffling like moss in a breeze. The rest of the town isn't saying anything, whether they're posting or not. It's just frustrating that nobody seems to know what they want to do, but nobody is also willing to take me up on my vote.

MILES:

About this...frustration(?) of yours,

where are you now?

How do you see Wheme currently?
And if I may ask, who are your top three townreads outside of RC, and why?

You seemed so 100% certain of Whale (or maybe you were also just looking for a wagon to pressure Whale to speak, IDK), but you've said that his post made you townlean him more.
I'm honestly never 100% sure about my own reads, the only thing I trust is logic/wincon-hunting, and both are hard to use to their maximum potential with this many players still around.

[UnaBombaH]

I've read everyones ISOs from this game separately now too, and my trifecta still stays the same.
If my feelings on WhyMafia-Perse -team weren't so strong for now, I'd still be wanting to vote Wheme.
Look at how Wheme/Perse have swapped their votes during the game, and why. Look at how they try to persuade people to jump on wagons.
And neither had any REAL pressure on themselves that would merit "self-defence" as reason.
See how their type of behaviour indirectly might have lead to the Fykus lynch, as he was ready to swap his vote anywhere to save his own hide. And he ended up being RC's #2 read after WhyMafia, and got lynched.
Similarly

I feel like Cankles was just so helplessly flailing to keep himself alive, and you guys still talk about his wagon. It turned the other way D1, but I honestly might've scumread him(me?) too if I had been on another slot watching it unfold. Can't say for sure.

But I can't understand the arguments for returning to it.

If you can't see me sincerely trying to game solve with what I write, you won't see it at any point.

Tossing your votes around as VT...ech.
RC has the luxurious position to play like that as BP and conf. town, so its sort of a different thing with him.
I know many players think that since vote is VT's weapon, you should use it as much as possible, but I think you should point more than stab. Because when you do, it should stick. And if it doesn't, there should be a wound or scar to remember.
It's normal to change your opinion when someone makes a good defence, like Whale did, but when you change your OWN READS ON SOMEONE, just because its good to suddenly vote them, it screams opportunism/scummyness.

Now I can see how someone might try to turn this on me, so I'll answer before you ask (gawd I'm bored):
I didn't want to place my vote anywhere at one point, because I was losing trust in my case and/or I didn't want to hammer WhyMafia (or anyone else for that matter) yet.
And so it looked like I was just flailing around, trying to build a case on Whale. Well, I admitted above, I was just trying to find SOMETHING to write, and also poke at Miles theory on him.
At no point was he very high on my scum-radar, I was mainly intrigued by the case Miles had built.
So I waited for a moment to cast my vote on my original suspect, without causing a day-end. Now someone might say THAT is opportunism, but its more about positioning yourself differently with your vote, based on the timing.
This might be mainly a scum-tactic, but I think RC is using this proficiently as Town too.
So what did I gain from this circling around?
Now two of my suspects are voting for me, and I have my vote where I want it (and probably keep it).

I'm still waiting on a defendable case from Perse/Wheme, and I have given you guys content to evaluate. Now I don't need you to evaluate whether my text has "townish or scummish -flavor", but tell me where you think my arguments are flawed, and discuss it out loud. That is how I read whether people are scum or not. You see, scum pretty much HAS to lie about scenarios involving their own win-con, otherwise they would admit to being scum.

[UnaBombaH]

I've been rather confbiasy in the past so I want to try to make a case for Whymafia so other people can independently judge it's merits.

Give me a bit before we go anywhere.

That might actually be great.

I, on the other hand, am going to sleep now. One full day of work before starting my vacation.

So gonna be away for ~8 hours, hopefully waking up to nearly as much content as I did today!

[UnaBombaH]

So scum already know what happened tonight.
So I'm going to straight up ask RC, were you the target last night?

No need to dance around the question anymore.
Like I said the previous day, I now trust you, where do we go from here?

To mod: I'm at a caravan site until sunday morning (gmt +3), but if all goes well, I can participate with my phone.

Small chance I don't have Internet action at times, and I need to spend time with my godson.

[UnaBombaH]

Yes Whale, THIS is the thing I meant we wait. Either they used their NK to take BP away/tested RCs claim, or he correctly saved some1. Only RC can be the doc if he is.
And even if scum for whatever reason thought they don't need a NK, they should obv take BP anyway to keep their options open later.

This makes me lean RC as BP, but him possibly being the doc was my "revelation" back then.

But scum would know it by now, so no need to be careful anymore I think?

I would make a long post if I weren't on phone, but remember all: this is Mylo, but we should take it as Lylo because RC prob dies N3.

[UnaBombaH]

Damn if I were to be at home, I could quote and format better.

WhemeStar actually wrote my thoughts, I too felt that at least one scum was waiting for me to post, because they didnt't want to be the first.
Then again, if Wheme is scum himself, it would still hold up, because he was the one to point it out.

I need to think this out when I'm home, because it's easier to read the whole game/ISOs with an actual screen and no touch controls to mess shit up.

Unless I find something devastating then, my earlier scenario of Wheme->Perse still feels good to me.
Don't want to rush anything though, because WhyMafias flip + no NK really messed up my predictions.

[UnaBombaH]

so from one perspective this is sort of easy: I have 3 townreads and 2 null-scum reads.

Okay who

Carefully trying to quote here.

I don't think RC should out his reads yet.
Save them to end of day, so we get value of it for final day, but don't give scum too much insight on what to push.
NK ideas they don't prolly need, RC is almost guaranteed to go. 1% chance scum missed NK?

[UnaBombaH]

Huoh.

WHY am I scumread?
For what honestly.
Out of respect for my team I wont vote Wheme until we have consensus on what to do, but Im tired of his bullshit.

Wheme, I dont have the equipment to engage you 100% now, but I will this Sunday.

Also Whale, you are slipping again in my books, why would you cover for Wheme at all?
I have a creeping thought that whatever your alignment is, you are trying very hard to hide your true reads, and that doesnt feel good in this gamestate.

[UnaBombaH]

Im sad. I get lynched when Im sleeping. Every time.

Also, I was gonna chase Perse hard on sunday, but it would've required good reads from RC to point out Miles to me.
I tried to give off the vibe that I was back to hunting Whale, but apparently that wasnt a good idea then. I wanted more content from Perse to analyze, and I thought it would be easier if I gave off the vibe Im looking at Whale as Whemes partner now.
I trusted that even Wheme wouldnt vote me in mylo so easily, but...ech.
I never shook the feeling that Perse was someones buddy, but she played it very good.

I tried to use the setup analyzing so mysteriously to achieve trust from RC, and Whale actually got my cred from diving into that too.
On this final day I went on a more direct mode with it, because I wanted more..anything from the scum, but didnt get it until it was too late. Perses later post wouldve been what I was waiting for, but I read it this just now.

Playstyles like Whemes will always rub me the wrong way, and will probably be a problem for my gamesolving.
I have now finished two games and got lynched in all of my games.

I think MafiaScum might not be for me. GG to all.

[UnaBombaH]

It wouldve been awesome to have you been Doc, and you'd have a confirmed townie to continue leading the next mylo, assuming I wouldve been able to wagon Perse (doubt it) and you NKd the following night.

[UnaBombaH]

I think MafiaScum might not be for me. GG to all.

I hope you'll give it another try. I watched your other game, and you replaced into a slot that was going to be nearly impossible to rehabilitate. Which was a problem for you here, too.

Maybe try playing from the start of a game next time, so you're not stuck with whatever problems another player created before being replaced.


Kind of a side thought, but I've been thinking about running a game in the micro queue sometime soon that could be a good transition from the newbie game format to something just a little more challenging.

<game reference redacted. ~f>

[UnaBombaH]

And Una, please play another one or two MS games. As others said, the games you were part of, weren't really ordinary. I played horribly both games. I'm sorry that you had to feel the burden both times :/

I was just frustrated at my bad games, I did queue up already. Sorry for sounding so dramatic.

I like controlled setups where logic and profiling works, I hate chaotic games and plays that just dont drive winconditions. It makes my brainwork feel worthless, and the games best aspect to me is lost.
Therefore I get frustrated when more than two players seem obviously scummy, and I feel like I cant put my thoughts to words and drive the point home.

Your play was better than mine, just a different style I think.

Im also looking forward to Cabd giving me feedback, I've come to respect him as a player through very few interactions already.

[UnaBombaH]

Im also looking forward to Cabd giving me feedback, I've come to respect him as a player through very few interactions already.

Your first mistake is assuming my play is to be respected~

Is this the sort of sensei-thing where I should now realize this was the full feedback?
And that life is full of uncertainty?
And that I should never question you, especially not, when you say that I should always question everyone and everything, including you?