Newbie 1816 (Game Over)

[guyy]

hello! this is my second game here so far. excited to play with a new set of players!

i won't quote the whole thing, but i like clockwork's post 81. it reads as genuine. i currently do not think she is scum, so her views are really useful at this point

It seems a lot of people are suspecting me of being mafia. I'm not and if you got that impression all I can say in my defence is that it's my first time playing and I don't seem to be particularly good at the game. If you have any questions to ask I'd be happy to answer

i wouldn't take people thinking you're scum as indication that you're not very good. i think you've been doing fine. people are going to think you're scum from time to time. if you're not and a lot of people seem to think so, there's a decent chance at least one person that is reading you as scum is scum themselves. i'd also suggest you don't remain deadset in any of your views. if you absolutely think someone must be scum, try to see why others don't think so. maybe they're on to something. alternatively, try to see if there are any hints as to who their scum partner might be

at the moment, i think siv seems pretty town as well. i'm not seeing what others are seeing in either clockwork or siv. i think it's pretty likely the scum team lies outside of these two, but i'm not 100% on that yet. for day 1, though, i'd personally like to focus elsewhere. siv at the very least has been providing content, so we'll have a lot of useful information whether he flips town or scum. also, generally, imo willingness to change your mind in town is scary to scum, especially in lylo. it's useful for scum to keep around players who are more stubborn and set in their erroneous reads

Yes, we want it, but faster is always better. Why would you push a content from someone who post once every 2 day rather than someone who post 10 times every day, especially in RVS? The quality of post is also matter, though.

I think if you don't start applying pressure on someone who posts rarely in the beginning, they won't pick up the speed in time and be less of a help if he can't get up to speed when we really need them, in the later game or as soon as late Day 1.

i agree with this. i don't think i4f's vote on an inactive is AI, but i could still see him being scum. he's being weird but i'm worried that's just playstyle. it'd be cool not to start off the game with a mislynch

My god it is so hard to not just omgus SIV rn tbh.

Like, especially finding the whole thing about my interactions regarding clockwork to be disingenuous when I was clearly trying to do a reread and get my head into the game.

to me, it read as if he's really trying to find information in interactions, which is part of what everyone should be doing. i think it's a lot more likely to be offbase than disingenuous, especially considering how often he's changed his mind. do you think he was being equally disingenuous about everyone else he had suspicions for previously? how would you have read the reactions of those players if they had reacted as you are now?

tbh from my current understanding of your meta from what you've explaining, i think if you're town you'd better serve town if you tried to scumhunt outside of siv for now, even if siv ends up being scum. you could be right, but i think it's pretty likely you're still in an OMGUS mindset without expressly voting that way, which is equally unhelpful and likely to lead to people thinking you're scum, especially if siv flips town

But I'm also painfully aware of how prone i am to omgus and wanting to break away from that style of play because more often than not I'm going to be voting town with legitimate suspicions and that doesn't help work towards a cohesive town.
.....but my god do I want to Q_Q

in theory i like this hesitation. jaereed is displaying a good amount of self awareness. at this point i could see it being either town trying to improve their play or nervous scum thinking someone might know his meta and expect an OMGUS retaliation from town!jaereed. this is something i've personally done before as scum- been afraid people would notice a difference in my behavior so i have to call it out myself before anyone else can

If I were mafia with clock I wouldn't be voting her rn tbh. I don't bus.

i don't really have a lot of faith in WIFOM statements like these


llama's being helpful and producing a lot of content from everyone through asking questions, so i'd like to have him around. but i don't think he's done anything specifically that points to him being town. i think the points other people have made about him trying to lay low while producing a lot of content (ie. not sticking his neck out) are good points. maybe slight scum lean, but i'd rather not lynch a helpful IC day 1, haha


atm i think scum is likely in this pool of players:
in4fun, simple plan, eclipsed, jaereed

i'd like to narrow it down a bit more, but at this point VOTE: jaereed seems the most likely

[guyy]

i meant if i were scum i wouldn't want to keep siv around because changing his mind a lot is scary for scum in lylo. as scum, I'd want to go into lylo with players who are likely to deathtunnel each other, not someone playing like siv

to your second point, scum can make good points. even against scum. i think jaereeds points about llama are genuine regardless of either of their alignments

[guyy]

llama is asking a lot of questions but seems to have mostly stayed out of arguments from what i can tell

[guyy]

also keep in mind i'm not dead set on that vote. i'm not nearly as certain about anything as other players seem to be, haha

but on my initial read, jaereen is the best lynch candidate at the moment's

[sorry for multiple short posts in a row. phone posting]

[guyy]

oh, that was a response to this, which i now realize i misread

My god it is so hard to not just omgus SIV rn tbh.

Like, especially finding the whole thing about my interactions regarding clockwork to be disingenuous when I was clearly trying to do a reread and get my head into the game.

i thought you were saying you thought what siv was saying about you was disingenuous. i was asking if you'd feel it was disingenuous
if anyone other than siv said it

i was mostly trying to ask if you'd feel very omgus against any other player. but i suppose i got the answer i was looking for in your reactions to me anyway, haha

the other reason i was voting you was essentially the opposite of what i said about siv- as town i'd rather have someone that isn't going to omgus vote in lylo and that will reconsider and listen and think [so either you flip scum- good - or we mislynch a possibly detrimental vt- not terrible]

which is what you've done since i posted, so i'm satisfied for now

UNVOTE:

i'm gonna reread

[guyy]

I've been raged at from the dead thread before for wanting to go through the whole game in lylo when it was considered a lock win.
That said, omgus voting in lylo is exactly what you need to do. You have to assume the player voting you is scum because you've lost anyway if they're not.
If you're arguing you think I'm the type to omgus vote... That was already proven false by the fact that I didn't do so.

well then i want you around more than i thought

also, i was reacting to the omgus mentality you seemed to have trouble suppressing just in response to someone suggesting you're scummy [see siv's post 99]. i wanted to see if it was worse if someone actually voted for you

i'm satisfied

right my vote would go to eclipsed but they are now being replaced

at this point i think we should lynch eclipsed or whemestar. maybe asp

[guyy]

It's a statement that basically equates to "its not something I morally approve of game-wise, but if we've got nothing else, it's where my vote will go." Using login times to see when players are around is the equivalent of glancing at another player's card when they're not paying attention during the in-person variant. While it's not against the rules, it violates the spirit of the game, and I'm not gonna push on that alone unless there's nothing else to be had whatsoever.

do you think we have nothing else to go on?

[guyy]

wheme who do you think is scum

[guyy]

i read the questions more as trying to help encourage newbies to generate content (ie not useless), but you're both right that the fact that it has persisted is noteworthy

was llama functioning as IC in the other game?

[guyy]

llama are you suggesting mulch and jaereed are scum partners?

why jaereed instead of mulch? if you're concerned about no lynch why not vote mulch, who already has a vote

[guyy]

oh nevermind i misread

you said you don't think mulch is scum. my bad

[guyy]

jaereed was not exactly silent about looking for a reason to vote llama

i dislike more the players that just stay out of the spotlight. it seems convenient at this point

VOTE: asp

[guyy]

oh the deadline date in the last vote count is wrong

[guyy]

mulch does that mean you don't think llama is anymore?

[guyy]

i don't like that clockwork went missing

is it because people are now focused elsewhere or a coincidence

[guyy]

she was posting like clockwork but now she's not lol

[guyy]

i don't like that clockwork went missing

is it because people are now focused elsewhere or a coincidence

she was posting like clockwork but now she's not lol

Yeah I noted this. Also saw her online at one point when I called her out which isn't a good look. That said, people can be busy and still half check in so I kinda hate going down that rabbit hole.

this is more or less where i'm at. i'm trying to rely on the reads i have of her before she went missing


wtf are these posts:

VOTE: giningie

You know I will flip town and therefore are being akward when asked how you would react if I flip town.

You may say this but people will look back on this later game and see

The difference between you and me is that I don't truly care if I'm lynched but you do care

Ginnje is scum, I would avoid talking to them.

coupled with the fact that i'm feeling pretty okay about ginngie so far, i'm willing to switch to a VOTE: mulch vote [L-2 btw]

this also makes me feel a little bit better about asp for the time being. mostly because of how quickly mulch voted him after i did, but also because asp still has his vote on mulch. still would like more contribution from him

UNVOTE:

You both feel different to what I'm used to.

pray tell

I'm used to Mulch being more spammy and pushy and gamesolvey.
I'm used to you being more cheeky and spammy and pushy and not as fencesittey on so many players.

I feel like you're both playing way more subdued and it's skeeving me out.

can you elaborate a bit more on this? i get the gist that it's triggering red flags in your head but it's hard for me to determine exactly what that means for your reads. does it mean you could see either of them being scum? one or the other? both? neither?

[guyy]

My sincere apologies. Work has been killing me lately- I got called in Monday night, making this past evening five days straight that I've had to work; and if it wasn't for the "rollover" Saturday night, I'd already be into overtime hours for the week. Stocking jobs are exhausting...

Currently my vote goes on Mulch just at a glance. He is just jumping around on any potential wagon trying to see what sticks- when Llama was under pressure, his vote went there. He voted me to try to create a pressure wagon, and now he's on Jaereed who is, with that vote, the largest wagon- and all his reasoning has been absolutely terrible (Meta is garbage; wagoning an inactive is garbage; "gut" sometimes nails people (Micro 732), but is heavily unreliable.).

VOTE: Mulch

I started the wagon on Llama, he wasn't under pressure. I voted you as the second vote, so I didn't create the wagon. Jae was not the largest wagon at the time. Meta is the most reliable way to do reads, and gut is valid af with only NINE pages to go on.


Any more blatant, objective, and indisputable flat out deadass lies you would like to tell?

also feels worth noting that he started a seemingly bogus case against ginngie immediately after responding to the idea that he's just jumping around on any potential wagon trying to see what sticks

maybe asp was right

[guyy]

why don't you try being helpful and attempt to get us to see what you see

because right now even if you flip town it won't inherently tell me anything about ginngie

[guyy]

why would anyone be any more convinced d2 than they are right now?

what if you're both town

this feels so stupid =/

[guyy]

if we lynch you then ginngie and you're both town and we lose will you accept full responsibility for the loss

[guyy]

Llama is super scummy right now lol

does this mean in your head it's llama and ginngie

or that you're gonna talk to us now

[guyy]

also what does chainsaw mean lol

[guyy]

i still don't understand why you're relying so heavily on that

i don't see any of the other players voting you suggesting they're about to go along with it either

[guyy]

it doesn't even make sense

it feels like it'd be easier for you to push a ginngie lynch right now

only 3 people are voting you. and one of them hasn't even been around for the bulk of it

why are you giving up so easily for no gain

[guyy]

@ginngie yeah that's mostly why i'm not unvoting but it doesn't seem like we're even going to get any useful information out of the pressure or L-1

[guyy]

There is a big gain. It's lynching scum tomorrow. I take full responsibility for the loss if ginngie is somehow town, but fortunately they are scum. As a townie, I am very happy for a 1 for 1 trade.

there are so many things that could happen between now and then. you have no reason to expect that to actually happen

this feels like lazy play honestly

[guyy]

other than "it won't be my fault if it doesn't"

[guyy]

this is awful lol

[guyy]

why did this happen

[guyy]

alright but you already have reason to believe 2 [me, ginngie] of the 8 people that aren't you aren't going to go along with that, even if you flip town

if ginngie is scum, as you say, she'd likely target those likely to go along with it, so you're left with 4 out of 7 people [ie not me, ginngie, her partner] and you're relying on every single one of them to go along with your plan

again

why are you so sure that's going to happen

[guyy]

that doesn't answer my question

it just elicits a new one- why don't you push for her now instead

[guyy]

you scum reading ginngie is not the issue here

it could be. but you chose to make it weirdly about lynching you instead

[guyy]

sorry i'm frustrated because this is very anti helpful

[guyy]

actually as far as i can tell you and i are voting for you in equal amounts

so we're either both lynching town or both lynching scum. you haven't even tried to convince me it's not the latter

[guyy]

thank you

now hopefully we can both shut up for a minute so other people can contribute something

[guyy]

if we lynch you then ginngie and you're both town and we lose will you accept full responsibility for the loss

I'm not sure yet about guyy but this post pinged me

i was being an asshole because of how ridiculous 268 was

[guyy]

also the only other game i played in whemes posting style was the exact same and he was cop so i'm town reading him so far

[guyy]

@plan

What will your reaction be when I flip town?

careful with you're reaction to this one, he might go apeshit and lynch himself

[guyy]

also side note lmao mulch are you spelling her name different every time on purpose because it keeps making me laugh

[guyy]

milfch, i'm currently not sure if i'm more annoyed that you're town or scared that you're scum

my vote is still on you because in either case you've been actively unhelpful since ginngie didn't answer a question the way you wanted

[guyy]

Why would I vote you if there will be no gain?

hahahahahaha

[guyy]

i don't understand what game you're playing dude

i've never played whatever you're playing

[guyy]

because i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming this is a scum gambit and not terrible town play

[guyy]

i still can't follow

so if ginngie is town does that mean the scum team is llama and mulch

[guyy]

i mean even if you're way off base i wouldn't blame you because a lot of this is very different from anything i'm used to

ginngie how sure are you that mulch isn't just outrageously stubborn

[guyy]

nothing else really makes sense honestly

[guyy]

llama, do you think mulch is scum if ginngie is town

[guyy]

also vice versa

[guyy]

mulch why are you so hesitant to start wagons yourself

[guyy]

I wonder if the scumteam is Raya and Llama.

I wonder.

i doubt it

raya seems to be echoing my thoughts tbh

[guyy]

jaereed who are your top scum reads right now

[guyy]

siv same question

[guyy]

i don't know if i buy llama's claim

it's like the same claim i made last game as scum

i was town reading him tbh and didn't like the wagon but now i wish i had had the chance to hammer lol

anyway, he claims first thing d2 or we lynch him

i don't really like siv for scum either, but i'll contribute to the wagon. especially since llama is still trying to push mulch

VOTE: siv L-1

[guyy]

nah give siv a chance at least please

[guyy]

if we mislynch a PR because scum made a last minute vague claim and we didn't give the real PR a chance it's gonna be kinda ass

[guyy]

Like llama is doing the same thing guyy did in his last scum game and guyy won

let's make sure not to quicklynch town d2 lol

[guyy]

VOTE: GinngieBut voting me is really going to hurt town guys. I suggest you move your votes to a more productive slot, or else mafia has a huge gain in this game.

llama waited until siv said this to vote him. i would do the same as scum to 1 for 1 a pr

VOTE: llama

[guyy]

don't think it's jaereed

maybe could be mulch? that's a pretty awesome d2 bus if that's the case. leaning against this

of the two that didn't vote llama, asp seems more likely than raya

lets see what happens VOTE: asp

[guyy]

L-1

[guyy]

from my perspective all that means is you or jaereed could still be scum

currently asp > raya = mulch > jaereed

[guyy]

If there is a town doc, I would claim now, so we can have an inno child here.

two things about this

1- if we don't have a doc, scum knows and can freely claim without counter
2- if we do have doc, there's also a roleblocker. outing the doc reduces the odds of a successful guard to zero

i don't see this as pro town at all

[guyy]

VOTE: mulch

[guyy]

i guess you're right a save doesn't get us much

there's a remote possibility of two saves giving us an extra lynch though

in any case it means if you're scum you're probably roleblocker

[guyy]

i saw it more as an attempt to pocket doc

which is scummy

if you're scum you know whether there's a doc or not. we don't

if there is a doc, scum claiming doc is suicide

[guyy]

like if you're scum, know doc exists, and trying to pocket whoever they are by telling them they're inno child when it's not

[guyy]

fine

UNVOTE:

[guyy]

mulch what makes you believe asp

i don't see it yet

[guyy]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=72556

[guyy]

Whats the difference between your town and scum game?

uhhh ideally nothing? haha. at least in my head that's what i strive for

but i think as scum i tend to gravitate towards chaos and examining every possibility even including ones where i or my partner are scum, whereas as town i care less about perception and kinda do my own thing and focus on whatever i want

as town i'm generally much more confident stepping on toes, disagreeing with anything, and poking people to see what happens

i think my opinions shift much more readily as town

still need to find a chance and read through everything again before i'll be satisfied with hammer intent for anyone

[guyy]

prod dodge

sorry

i've been real life crazy busy

haven't had the chance to go through isos like i've wanted to

please bear with me

[guyy]

had time to look through raya ISO right quick, will get to the other three later. don't want to draw any conclusions until i look at how likely it feels each one is scummy individually

At this point I'm starting to think Mulch is scum trying to distract town. I mean, he's done a good job if that's the case. How many pages has he kept the focus on him while not allowing anything actually productive to happen?

I've been tossing around the idea of Llama/Mulch and Jae/Mulch. I still need to look into which of the three I want to vote for the most right now though.

do you still feel this way?

what happened to shift from that perspective to thinking asp is the most likely now? that seems oddly convenient given the votes that were thrown around at the start of d3 (namely momentum against asp and not mulch)

like, it seems possible you're going with the convenient vote for the easiest and most likely mislynch and crafting views around it

flips since you expressed those scum picks:
-siv flipped cop
-wheme flipped VT
-llama flipped scum
-ginngie flipped VT

i'd think it'd make more sense if you still suspected mulch. mulch's behavior d1 is no less scummy than it was before, and is potentially moreso now with ginngie flipping town. town is not going to be afraid to keep pushing against mulch on this. scum might.

with this hindsight in mind, the following reads like a convenient way to explain you switching gears away from mulch because you can tell the momentum for mislynching him is no longer there (unlike d1)

Mulch (Eclipsed & Bhoysterous)
Eclipsed's first read was Llama seemed town but did not say so confidently. Scum town-reading partner but not comitting? Said Clockwork sounded like scum and backed this up in a later post agreeing with someone else. Still unconfident. Scumread SIV but not enough to vote. I posted a lot of thoughts on Mulch during my catchup. I found him pretty scummy for a few different reasons but I was also tossing around the idea that he was being more anti-town than scummy. He has been playing better than earlier now and I think I'm leaning more towards his past play being anti-town although I'm still definitely wary of this slot.

[guyy]

my issue i think with asp still is how little content we've gotten out of that slot

i can see why people might suspect raya, but i don't see why you're convinced about asp. his voting habits seem just as convenient tbh

day 1:
-he correctly townread ginngie
-showed general agreement with llama often
-said he liked my points
-pushed only against mulch

same as raya d3, conveniently finds reasons to not heavily suspect mulch anymore now that no one else is

post 314 and post 582 both seem crafted to push the game towards the easiest mislynch based on the current state of the game

the thing i'm not sure about is if i'm just looking into this so much because of the lack of content as a whole or if it actually is AI

also why i want mulch to tell me what he sees that convinced him

[guyy]

give me reasoning and i'll hammer

[guyy]

no

[guyy]

talk to me about asp first

why don't you get your bro jaereed to hammer

[guyy]

if the wagon were you and jaereed i probably would honestly

[guyy]

would hammer raya if it were you and jaereed voting and not you and asp

[guyy]

what is weird about preferring a wagon supported by your town read

[guyy]

VOTE: asp

i think you're wrong mulch

[guyy]

if you lynch me will you rethink asp tomorrow

[guyy]

ok haha

well will you at least explain why not asp

that's all i ever wanted to know

[guyy]

what's f3

[guyy]

do you still want me to hammer here haha

[guyy]

VOTE: raya

[guyy]

i really think it's asp here

but not confident enough that i'm willing to throw away the game to unlikely but possible scum!mulch

[guyy]

i haven't either, though tbf this is only the second game i've played in with the hammer mechanic

it reads a little weird to me that you asked for it too, but i'm not sure the meta here

in any case, i agree with asp here that you're not as confirmed as you think you are. yeah, it's probably unlikely that day 1-2 interactions between you and llama are between scum partners, but i'd rather not hand you an easy victory here

--

ultimately the thing that doesn't make sense here from a scum!mulch perspective is jaereed being the night kill. jaereed DID seem to consider mulch as confirmed as he thinks he is. he could've won so much more easily killing off me or asp and voting with jaereed to mislynch the other, right? i'm not really sure why asp doesn't realize this, so his perspective doesn't make any sense unless he's scum

so heavily leaning asp here but definitely need to dedicate time to reading through ISOs before committing to a vote

[guyy]

mulch can i have you show me exactly which interactions with llama you think make you obviously town

[guyy]

that was never an aspect of why i was townreading you honestly

[guyy]

when i was townreading you, that is

definitely wasn't townreading you d1 lol

[guyy]

honestly most of that seems solid but post 472 looks a little too ridiculously on point

[guyy]

eehhh fuck it

you as scum makes no fuckin sense

VOTE: asp

please don't be scum here mulch

[guyy]

I'm good at mafia

i like to think i'm pretty okay too but also i think i totally could see myself pulling the shit you pulled d1 as scum with llama

but ultimately the jaereed kill makes no sense from you

[guyy]

yeah well i guess that confirms it for me then

not moving my vote

[guyy]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=72556

[guyy]

not according to radiantcowbells lol

i like to think i'm good both, tbf

[guyy]

uhhh iirc i believe it was mostly not wanting to lynch IC d1

i also loathe inactivity but that hasn't manifested so much here yet

i liked that he was making people produce content and i didn't want to lose that but was annoyed that he wasn't really doing a lot of giving his ideas

i have to read more for a better answer because i don't fully remember haha. which is why i asked for your interactions with him

[guyy]

fine

UNVOTE:

Why did you need me to prompt you to unvote?

you conceded it was flawed logic and didn't press the issue. that was good enough for me at that point in time. i kept a mental note of your initial push before i pushed back and let you move on

that scum game is the only completed game i have here

[guyy]

if we lynch you then ginngie and you're both town and we lose will you accept full responsibility for the loss

Is this town or scum for you guyy?

both honestly

i was legitimately pissed off at the way you were engaging with everyone

it was a stab at you for suggesting you have no responsibility if we don't do what you say and lose

[guyy]

i'm still not really sure what 607 means exactly

the "no" was in response to the post before telling me to just do it

[guyy]

jaereed or mulch

prob mulch because you expressed suspicion for me on multiple occasions and jaereed really didn't. and because you were the one i was arguing with about asp. my odds wouldn't really look good here

though to be completely honest i'd probably do either. leaving jaereed is a risk because he was so quiet d3

and i think it'd be easier to convince asp to vote mulch than jaereed based on d3 interactions

[guyy]

although, not and

[guyy]

Fwiw if I die I'm leaning guy scum if Raya isn't

i also would've jumped on the opportunity to kill you and use this as reasoning that i would absolutely never kill you

[guyy]

yes

[guyy]

<3 we got super lucky with the siv mislynch honestly

but yeah i figured if i held off it would ping you given my last scum game so i took the risk in confirming you so if it came back to it i could say i never would've done that

[guyy]

oh you mean with killing jaereed over you

yeah honestly i saw an asp x mulch argument increasing my chances and i was more afraid of the uncertainty jaereed brought

[guyy]

This is mostly my fault tbh. You pinged me hard not voting for raya.

Also, your tone is godly. It's amazing. I think you are in the upper echelon of scum players I've seen even as a new player

i have played a lottttttt of forum mafia. i was playing in newbie games to learn the culture here since it's vastly differently from what i'm used to

[guyy]

i'm too paranoid about being obvious

[guyy]

shoutouts to llama

i blocked raya every night on his initial suggestion

[guyy]

This was one of the first games I played in where I was a night kill, not gonna lie, pretty exciting to start dying

you were the one i was most afraid of

you needed to go haha