Mini Normal 1983: Winter Wonderland [Endgame!]

[Katyusha]

I'm going to win.

[Katyusha]

I'm going to win.

Not on my watch

VOTE: Katyusha

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Katyusha]

VOTE: BuJaber

Avatar is too edgy for me please lynch this

VOTE: internecine

Hmmm. Avatars mean nothing

disagree - avatars reflect some aspect of someone's personality which can help you understand and read them better and i can kind of understand why someone might want to off someone with an edgehog avatar from the getgo

i like bu tho he's cool

pedit: rvs is an illusion and the faster you accept this the better u will get at this game

[Katyusha]

down for that

VOTE: UCV

[Katyusha]

i played a hydra game with ucv, and we randed scum
his comments to me pregame were smth along the lines of:
"rvs are our friend, try to make them last as long as you can"
unless he's faking this on purpose, he's most likely town

If he'd do a specific action as town, wouldn't it follow that he'd also do it as scum in order to emulate his town persona?

[Katyusha]

like i get the last line but the conclusion i'm drawing is that it's NAI not town

[Katyusha]

this is a communist town we all own pagetops now

[Katyusha]

I was under the assumption that UCV rvs'd but then said we should try to get out of rvs as soon as possible which seems like a normal progression to me

though i guess that vote could have been serious - if it is UCV i'd actually like to hear what you think the scum motivation for that vote is

[Katyusha]

Why do we need solid scum motivation at this point? You sound like you're pushing against it trying to look townie.
The issue is inconsistency.
Plus we get out of RVS like he wanted.

If his vote is serious, then he more than likely believes that Intern's vote is scummy and I'd like to hear him elaborate on why scum would vote someone for their avatar.

and again i dont think ucv's actions were inconsistent - it's just bad.

[Katyusha]

VOTE: BuJaber

Avatar is too edgy for me please lynch this

VOTE: internecine

Hmmm. Avatars mean nothing

Walk on the moon with me for a second Hop

I think it's absolutely believable this vote is serious coming from someone who is known for trying to force RVS to end early and want clarification

Do you disagree?

[Katyusha]

VOTE: ucv

Blatant posturing with the rvs thing.

Not mafia is my second candidate for scum. They were a lot more careless as town in the last games I've played with them compared to now.

is it still posturing if he genuinely believes in it though?

VOTE: Flubber

I’m also not really liking the composition of this wagon besides n_m - sorry to dash ur hopes and dreams here

pedit:

VOTE: Seph

Equally fine vote

[Katyusha]

Why Flubber over Sephiroth

scumreads n_m for inaccurate meta and his UCV read is weird in light of the game’s context

seph is empty and bad too but I instinctively vote for the person who posted more content

[Katyusha]

Are you going to answer sheep’s question?

pedit: @seph

[Katyusha]

We have 3 good candidates already

i have 4 actually !!!

[Katyusha]

Eh

I guess that’s reasonable then, but do you feel that sheep putting you in such a false dichotomy is scummy?

[Katyusha]

“Di” means two

He’s saying you lead him to choose between two options with your question when his answer was a third

Honestly in that position I would have just said my third option lmao

[Katyusha]

how is he posturing about being any alignment...?

[Katyusha]

again, if he genuinely believes this (which he does) he's going to do it as either alignment which means the action itself is nai

i dont understand why you'd insinuate it's LAMIST when he will do this regardless - pushing your own beliefs in the thread isn't townie, it's just pushing your own personal opinion onto the thread

Is there something specific that'd make you want to contradict sheep's meta read wrt UCV? Like my take on it is that it didn't matter but like if I was scumreading him for it i'd be thinking about it if someone said he exclusively did this as town

[Katyusha]

That's not what I mean - UCV genuinely believes towns should force their way out of RVS as soon as possible rather than let it move naturally. When I say personal opinion I'm referring to non-game related matters - which is why I don't think your point 1 is scummy for UCV, it's just a UCV tell.

Point 2, which in a vacuum I'd agree actually makes UCV scummy here, is mostly why I wanted to ask about his vote because it genuinely seems possible that he thought that he was voting for someone scummy and want that thought process clarified.

Have you played with UCV before in a game you're allowed to talk about?

[Katyusha]

no thoughts on anything that's been said

[Katyusha]

this is a communist town we all own pagetops now

[Katyusha]

I don't really understand why the UC wagon isn't still going tbh.

i dont really like flubber, you, or hopkirk either and think it'd be better to sort you guys before continuing to push ucv

[Katyusha]

I've never seen a distinction between a "natural" and "unnatural" attempt to end rvs. Seems like an unnecessary splitting of hairs, but I'm not sure what motivations to attribute to it.

From what I've seen in his past games he'd bullshit readlists at times where it didn't really make sense as town as an example of forcing town out of RVS

that's mostly what i've been understanding it as - plus trying to scumread intern for their vote seems like a forced read and knowing that he forces reads as either alignment i think it's important to understand where he's coming from

Thats too bad I like you =/

i mean if ur town i'll see through it it's like page 4

can you answer my question about sheep though?

Oh we need to put UCV at l-1?

VOTE: UCV

can tell this is going to be a fun game

[Katyusha]

serg i'm not following

are you reading intern/flub as a pair already bc from your post it seems like you should be voting for intern? which i dont really agree with but still

VOTE: flub

i'm going to trust in the meta reads of seph either way and let that sort itself out later tho

Let's put Flub at L-1 and see how he reacts to pressure

down for that as well

[Katyusha]

i'm going to trust in the meta reads of seph either way and let that sort itself out later tho

reread serg's post wrong and realize he wasnt giving a meta read but my vote stays either way

wagonomics etc etc

pedit: i dont really see why you'd point it out then but ok that makes your thought process make a little bit more sense

Oh hey guys. Who are the scummies?

bit self conscious, could be scum?
VOTE: sephiroth

he could be but more has happened - does that impact your read so far?

[Katyusha]

*reread serg's post and realized

fuck lmao

[Katyusha]

Why couldn't Intern be town who wanted to know why sheep felt differently from him? To me that seems equally plausible rn

*reread serg's post and realized

fuck lmao

?

Is it my grammar?

If you all are puzzled about my grammar, English is my second language.

nah i mean yeah it's clear you're esl but i can still understand you

i just made an embarrassing typo i wanted to fix (i added a "wrong" that i didn't mean to and used the wrong realize)

[Katyusha]

Eh. 5 is probably enough.

Five votes?

Do you have a scumread on flubber or are you still just bandwagonning....

[Katyusha]

Don't really have any reads yet

really? i feel like there's a lot to prod at here

i have no problem taking a step back if that makes it easier to find something to push on for you though

I did say it is possible that they could be scum buddies but I just wanted to pressure on Flub to see if he's scum.

it's possible but i have no strong reason to see it - from the way you phrased it seemed like you came onto a flub scumread based on an intern scumread which didnt really make sense to me

[Katyusha]

I think there’s plenty of real content /:

anyway

I don’t think moz’s approach is inherently scummy but I would still like to know how he came to the conclusion flub’s town

[Katyusha]

hopkirk i dont know if you're being deliberately obstinate but i'm obviously not referring to ucv's thoughts regarding rvs here?

can you reread what i've been writing?

[Katyusha]

doesnt matter if you're still caught up bc that was my response to your response and context wouldnt change anything

dont mind waiting for you to catch up though

[Katyusha]

Yeah. Is it really unreasonable to think that, regardless of what other people would think of that vote, it's a serious vote?

[Katyusha]

Flubber’s entrance is basically the same as a previous game I’ve played with him where he was town.

Bujaber’s Moz vote in 139 isn’t very good. Reads as (wanting to sound) annoyed, yet doesn’t quite fit. Moz isn’t the only one guilty of what Bu is complaining about, it’s explicitly not a serious vote Bu is making, and Moz didn’t say ‘confirmed’ town, so Bu is changing his words to make the read.
That wouldn’t make me dislike Bu alone. I dislike Bu because he then goes on to express a scumread on either Flubber or Seph. Firstly, he doesn’t comment on why, which doesn’t fit with his earlier complains about people lacking content/good reasoning. Secondly, those are popular wagons. Ignoring them in favour of the Moz vote looks like intentionally trying to avoid getting involved in the main ongoing discussions. Sitting at the sidelines.

i can vibe with this read though on bu

i think the specific action of the entrance (stating reads) is fine but the reads themselves are the problem; which, unless flub frequently gives bad reads, means im not really putting much stock into that meta

[Katyusha]

the bar I presume is set low for UCV here which is why I’m wanting clarification

[Katyusha]

My first impression was that the vote wasn’t serious but n_m pointed out in context that it could be serious - after rereading it I thought that it was more likely UCV thought that was actually scummy

The bar in general, or at least for me, for a serious vote is one you can defend as voting for something scummy - so if UCV legitimately is seeing scum motive then finding out why is useful for reading him, even if you personally think the vote is arbitrary

[Katyusha]

Bu I get where you’re coming from but a lot of people confidently state their reads in the early game

I don’t think hard townreads on me, sheep, or n_m are entirely unreasonable positions to hold rn

[Katyusha]

it's a poe list - if he sees reason to change it he will, but otherwise yes he will be pushing from his non-trs

do you still think the way he's approaching it is scummy still?

like the only issue im really seeing is flubber town but i'm still at the point where he could be right

[Katyusha]

i think i'm at

{sheep, n_m} - Town
{Intern, Serg} - Townlean
{hem, moz} - weaker townlean
{Bu, Hop} - frequently going back and forth on tbh
{UCV, Schism} - null
{Seph, Flub} - scumlean

which is a lot less than i thought i was at and im not really confident about seph with the meta reads on him (planning on looking into that rn)

[Katyusha]

so the more pagetops sheep grabs the less votecounts we get

will be mindful of this

[Katyusha]

yeah im townreading that entire composition here rn

You do know what a wagon with no counterwagon tends to point to...rignt?

i've definitely been on D1 scum lynches that have been strongarmed by entirely town so from an uninformed perspective this doesnt really help clear you

Who do you think is the scum on your wagon rn?

[Katyusha]

oh just saw nsg's notes

I'm good with them whenever you get a pagetop at any frequency, with like a once or twice a day minimum

thats what i tried to do in the game i modded (and i got like most of the pagetops except for when i depression spiraled at the end of the game )

[Katyusha]

Not_Mafia is kind of obvtown and your meta where he's more useful as scum is definitely wrong since i've seen him play a decent towngame before (he mislynched me but like i was playing like complete crap anyway and it's also on my ~secret main~; he solved the game in lylo and would have won if it werent for a stupid mechanic that got him instalynched)... besides decent tone 24 and 40 were also good posts that show townie thought process

will gladly hear the rest of your analysis though

also i started sinking my teeth into seph's most recent scumgame, i'm inclined to agree with the meta given based on his iso there considering how much faster he was contributing while informed. his play isnt that good or townie but it makes sense for someone who feels clueless as either alignment. will see if context strengthens this though

[Katyusha]

Which game was that? I seem to forget games as soon as they finish these days

it would kind of out my main if i said that!

+ if you know my main it's the only game we've been in together

[Katyusha]

thats the annoying thing about alting half secretly

[Katyusha]

UNVOTE:

i hate to be That Bitch^tm and do this but i'm genuinely not ready for the day to end even when those happen - why do you think just those three people posting a little more warrants an end to the day?

also bu you forgot to mention waiting for schism who still hasnt checked in

[Katyusha]

unless

you dont think we should wait for schism lmao

[Katyusha]

i mean i can agree with that on paper but i dont really know if for sure if that'd be enough for me to feel like i have some semblance of understanding the gamestate rn

VOTE: Hopkirk

sheep and seph can you tell me how you feel about the conversation I had with him?

[Katyusha]

Or do you think Hopkirk is more probable to be scum than Flubb?

I'm not really sure - I don't want a claim out of Flubber right now because I'm not confident enough about the gamestate to read off of a lolhammer or kill him right now. He's basically my only scumread when I have a pretty large pool of nullreads

so really he's just a better vote to me right now and i'd rather wait until i hear from seph before i disclose my reasoning fully if it's not clear from the thread

whats a schism

like a divide between something

and also the user who still hasnt posted anything yet

[Katyusha]

like if he's scum great but i dont know where to go from there and how i'd be able to tell if he were bussed

unlike a good set of this table iirc i dont like short d1s and prefer to use my time efficiently which sometimes calls for longer d1s

[Katyusha]

hm

let me take a second look then after i have lunch.

[Katyusha]

Did something change, or are you just trying to sort me?

nothing really changed, and i'm still trying to sort most of the table

my vote is really multipurpose and it's kind of hard to articulate what i'm doing without defeating its purpose

for clarification on my readlist "going back and forth on" and "null" are equal tiers, it's just I dont have a reason to read UCV and Schism one way or another, versus Bu and Hopkirk who at that point I could see as either align.

i'm trying to put the conversation i had with hopkirk in a spoiler so maybe it's a bit more clear what i'm trying to ask sheep about bc on an in-context read it's still bugging me

i also am pretty happy with hme's vote - it's not the same reason i voted hopkirk but it's a good point. im not as content his sheep scumread though and think it's more likely sheep just needs a second look at hop or rebutt the point i'll bring up depending on how seph approaches the situation

[Katyusha]

it doesn't feel like serg is on the side of the town this game

serg just feels like he's going to be kind of hard to sort through normal means - gut says he's townie here tbh but i dont really have much more than that

---

Spoiler: Conversation with Hopkirk

I was under the assumption that UCV rvs'd but then said we should try to get out of rvs as soon as possible which seems like a normal progression to me

though i guess that vote could have been serious - if it is UCV i'd actually like to hear what you think the scum motivation for that vote is

Why do we need solid scum motivation at this point? You sound like you're pushing against it trying to look townie.
The issue is inconsistency.
Plus we get out of RVS like he wanted.

If his vote is serious, then he more than likely believes that Intern's vote is scummy and I'd like to hear him elaborate on why scum would vote someone for their avatar.

and again i dont think ucv's actions were inconsistent - it's just bad.

He clearly doesn't think that 'anyone engaging in RVS is scum'. Why do you think it might be serious.

VOTE: BuJaber

Avatar is too edgy for me please lynch this

VOTE: internecine

Hmmm. Avatars mean nothing

Walk on the moon with me for a second Hop

I think it's absolutely believable this vote is serious coming from someone who is known for trying to force RVS to end early and want clarification

Do you disagree?

1.) That requires UCV to think that everyone agrees with him, hence find anyone participating in RVS scummy. He clearly doesn't have that view since he only referenced one person there, not everyone involved in RVS.
2.) It's a wagon, not a major scumread. Main value is how UCV and other reaction to it. You're treating it like more than it is to a strange degree.

hopkirk i dont know if you're being deliberately obstinate but i'm obviously not referring to ucv's thoughts regarding rvs here?

can you reread what i've been writing?

@Kat: Haven't caught up yet. Posting as I read.

doesnt matter if you're still caught up bc that was my response to your response and context wouldnt change anything

dont mind waiting for you to catch up though

The point was that I'd seen what you'd said, but I'd finish catching up before responding.

VOTE: BuJaber

Avatar is too edgy for me please lynch this

VOTE: internecine

Hmmm. Avatars mean nothing

This is the post you were referencing, right?

Yeah. Is it really unreasonable to think that, regardless of what other people would think of that vote, it's a serious vote?

Yes, it is unreasonable to think that.
UC understands RVS happens. Consequently, he cannot develop a strong scumread on someone just because they engage in RVS.
It could be called 'serious' if you set a really really low bar for calling a vote serious, but I(/anyone reasonable) would set the bar significantly above that.

The bar in question is my and your perspectives, not UCV's.
'Serious' could either mean 'not random' or 'A top scumread as of now' or 'I would be happy to end the day with a lynch right now'. Where do you set the bar?

My first impression was that the vote wasn’t serious but n_m pointed out in context that it could be serious - after rereading it I thought that it was more likely UCV thought that was actually scummy

The bar in general, or at least for me, for a serious vote is one you can defend as voting for something scummy - so if UCV legitimately is seeing scum motive then finding out why is useful for reading him, even if you personally think the vote is arbitrary

sheep can you reread through the parts i selected in the spoiler for me and answer my question again? if you still the feel same way then can you elaborate on why

[Katyusha]

I was kind of getting the impression Kat thought otherwise.

No, I didn't really take your UCV read into consideration bc something still feels off about the whole thing regardless

in the future, i'm not gonna answer any more questions from anyone that could be answered by looking for the answer themselves. because it's sad to spend a post saying "yes" to something that could be answered by looking for the answer themselves.

but im gonna answer this now.

yes

i think the unspoken expectation would be to specify which games but i can understand why you'd also not opt to do that

That was actually @Kat, but applies to HEM too actually. I don't see why anyone could suspect UC, or that HEM could think I did given half my argument with Kat was about scumreading someone based on that content being impossible.

thats not what the conversation is about and thats why im annoyed at this whole thing

[Katyusha]

different talk points or something

yes but theres no contradiction between them

i kind of wanted to see if seph sees it though so im not going to explain that well until he gets back

[Katyusha]

er seeing as though that inference doesnt really make sense from both how i remember the conversation as it happened and how i'm reading it, no, the formation of any alignment read on based on UCV's vote is mostly irrelevant to the conversation.

what do you mean by an equal offering? like if he explained the vote?

[Katyusha]

this is 100% eric andre level non sequitur that derailed the actual event happening here: Hopkirk has been constantly misrepresenting events, in addition to my vote reason. And then sheep defending him with little cause for it. this is noteworthy and that we should be taking this more seriously.

theres no point in trying to hide it because hme just hit the nail on the head lmfao

i think sheep is just misguided though, the rest of his play is obvtown

also the ucv game he linked is a good example of what i meant to flubber about him forcing town out of rvs

Town

UCV

Toto
Whymafia

Scum

Screenplay
Sheep

[Katyusha]

like this is how i'm seeing the chain of events i spoilered:

• me: hey theres reason to think ucv might have been serious here, let's clarify if he sees scum motivation in intern. i also dont think theres any inconsistency between ucv's thought process and his actions
  
  hopkirk: why do we need scum motivation here? the discussion here is about ucv's inconsistency. i dont like the way you're going about this
  
  me: i want to hear ucv's thought process so i can read it. also ucv isnt being inconsistent
  
  hopkirk: he obviously doesn't think that rvs'ing is scummy - why would he be serious?
  
  me: can you take a second look at that vote and try to see where i'm coming from?
  
  hopkirk: everyone would have to agree with ucv for that to be the case - he also only referenced one person. the point of this is that we're wagonning ucv for reactions (note this clearly does not reference the vote i was talking about and seems to be discussing the ucv wagon? which is irrelevant)

like eric andre really hit the nail on the head here for how? off hopkirk seems to be interacting with everything and further discussion only made it worse

it feels like he thought i was pushing against the ucv wagon which?? doesnt make sense considering i was on it

if i'm misrepping please lmk

[Katyusha]

the non-sequitur feel of how hopkirk responds to things - like in the conversation i spoilered it feels like he and i are talking in different planes of existence

pedit: ok

[Katyusha]

oh didnt realize that there was a response in it

no, that's a bad conclusion - I agree 4 is NAI but that doesn't mean UCV feels the same way and based on UCV's philosophy it's possible he saw something scummy

pedit: i think he was in kidney mafia and remember him being obvtown so i dont know if im really convinced

we all own page tops communism etc

pedit: fuck u too php

[Katyusha]

@mod you have the power to edit player-claimed pagetops into VCs, right? lol

yeah but doing so's really annoying because mod isos are really useful for reading back and also replacements

like snarky always edits VCs into pagetops and it's really annoying lmfao - ive never even been in her games but it makes them harder to follow

also hop next time can you remember to mark your text differently when you post in a quote?

pedit: hm

[Katyusha]

I dont like how you think i should have voted you there. i dont like how you're branding my play cautious here when that's not even what's happening. i dont like how you think sheeping is something unlikeable. and i don't like how you think me not liking UC is somehow grounds to not place my vote elsewhere

hop uh

this isnt a statement of disliking UC, he's just talking about your thought process in 205

[Katyusha]

This is in response to what I read UC as. What his reads were were not relevant.

??

hop can you

take a few steps back and just try to reread everything because now that you got called out for it i still feel like we're in different planes of existence and hem seeing it too makes me think it's not a mutual or me issue

ucv's alignment is irrelevant here and i dont think ive ever asked you what you thought it was. we started having a conversation because you didn't seem to like the question i asked about ucv possibly scumreading intern, and i went and justified why i thought it was relevant. then we kind of went into a few non-sequiturs and i didn't really pick up on how off they felt until i asked if you were being deliberate about it. i was then asking if you saw the possibility that it was serious to clarify my intent and then from there it seemed that we might have different takes on what constitutes a serious vote so i dropped it

pedit: still would like to know why flubber's town, and also why sheep is null and intern is scummy? rest i can see from your pov

[Katyusha]

no i think he's here. just in a different POV because of that different alignment

i mean i think the same thing so far but i'd honestly feel kind of shitty if i mislynched someone over a misunderstanding

past history says this is a typically accurate tell and usually it becomes more clear what's actually going on when you ask someone what's actually going on in their head - that's how you know it's a misunderstanding from alignment or not

[Katyusha]

Anyway, Flubber is town because the wagon was bad.

Flubbernugget (6): sheepsaysmeep, Sergtacos, Katyusha, Not_Mafia, Internecine, humaneatingmonkey

3 townreads, a null read, and 2 possible scum doesn't seem like "bad" composition, especially considering from the game's context I would think the townreads here are stronger than the scumreads?

and HEM is kind of obvtown now so you townreading his push on you makes sense to me, especially since you havent called him out for misrepping you or anything

when you're done with explaining your pov i'd like to know the bad of sheep because i only see good

no i think he's here. just in a different POV because of that different alignment

i mean i think the same thing so far but i'd honestly feel kind of shitty if i mislynched someone over a misunderstanding

past history says this is a typically accurate tell and usually it becomes more clear what's actually going on when you ask someone what's actually going on in their head - that's how you know it's a misunderstanding from alignment or not

you are so town you might get NK'd

believe it or not that'd be a first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Katyusha]

oh. then are you scum now? because i should be scumreading you, right?

no for some reason my lifespan in games, even when i'm well townread and mostly correct about my reads, is absurdly long

i've only been killed in the late game by groupscum and usually because i'm conftown

[Katyusha]

yeah - mentioned it here already and also says so on my wiki

it's not that difficult to figure out who i am because i've made zero effort to hide it (a lot of people have told me they know so i stopped trying) but i still dont want to disclose it

if you know you know and it's fine to meta me, otherwise i'm not going to say anything else

[Katyusha]

no, but i've modded a game with you in it and i loosely follow like every single game on this site whenever i'm active

[Katyusha]

if you're asking that question i think you know the answer lmao

[Katyusha]

that's a yes

[Katyusha]

OK - yes, in 35 I'm interested in his alignment but not in the sense of what you thought of his alignment - I'm interested in what his intentions with the vote are which would help see his alignment. I don't mention UCV's alignment, only that I think it's believable he made a serious vote when we might have been dismissing it as a nonserious vote because most people would think it is.

I don't see what the relevance of whether or not we're lynching or wagonning him has on this since the only point of discussion was nor do I understand why you're sticking to this detail. The only thing that was brought into question by me in 30 - 35 were UCV's intentions in voting Intern - who was wagonning or lynching is a non-sequitur.

146 doesn't make sense as a response because UCV's vote being serious doesn't rely on people's agreement with UCV's theory, nor does whether or not you're wagonning/lynching UCV matter.

with 156 on, I'm trying to understand why you would think it's unbelievable for the vote to be serious because your response implies that everyone is approaching the game the same way when that's not the case. I was trying to respond to you in good faith because I still had that feeling of being on a different plane and wanted to see if anyone else would notice if I didn't call it out while I still scumread Flubber.

@Kat: Bit I’m concerned about with Sheepy is that he said he saw both sides of it but didn’t really solve the issue by pointing out I’d misread monkey’s UC read, or trying to get us to understand each other. Though given 235, that could easily be from town too. I also like a lot of other stuff from Sheep.

your concern seems like something he'l address when he's reading closer - if i recall correctly he said he was posting while in class. from how he's responded to the thread so far (going back and forth on our conversation for example) it's also kind of clear he's not reading that closely.

i dont really know if that's enough to drop him from a townread to a nullread

[Katyusha]

like i agree his engagement from yesterday is clearly town but i'm not following how one blemish that seems kind of easy to clear up would detract from that read

[Katyusha]

is play isnt that good or townie but it makes sense for someone who feels clueless as either alignment. will see if context strengthens this though

Yeah I only engineered two mislynches and convinced the conftown to vote against a claimed vanilla cop in MYLO for the win. Pretty poor play.

no i mean here lol

your play in that game was fine

[Katyusha]

146 means that UCV's vote isn't serious (in the sense i later define) given he only commented on one vote, so didn't scumread RVS engagement in general.

UCV wasn’t voting for RVS engagement so I’m still confused about how we’re getting here

I suppose the rest is understandable confusion but still

Also HEM like I agree with your push in theory but n_m is probtown and I don’t really know the best way to make it clear this stage of the game now that I have better reads. I’ll at least echo that seeing if n_m’s reads have changed would be nice

[Katyusha]

I still think Hop is scum and am capable of casing him but I think I'd like more people to weigh in on him.

What's your take so far?

[Katyusha]

to clarify i'm willing to try to be more clear about why i feel the way i do about our back and forth but think seeing more people be confused/make reads out of it first is more helfpul

i dont really see why you'd unvote here btw

[Katyusha]

Sorry, thought the implication was clear. I don't think his summary was accurate, so yes.

[Katyusha]

only really disagree with sheep and hop tbh

but yeah this is town n_m

[Katyusha]

What's giving you pause about scum!flub? You were pretty happy to hammer him just a while ago so...?

Plus it's never too late to vote for scum. If his preliminary thoughts change your mind then you can still move your vote.

I agree with everything else though at least - especially on point 2. I'm more than glad with putting a gag rule on myself since I think I already have twice as many posts as sheep at this rate and have done so in the past.

[Katyusha]

Could you go into your HEM scumread?

[Katyusha]

It’s anti-town, but I don’t think it’s coming from an informed position.

Like with n_m, “L-1 and claim” is basically saying “this guy needs to die if he keeps this up” as I understood HEM. I think he was more trying to provoke me to get a read out of me when he was asking me about Bu’s intent.

Both are probably ultimately conducive to helping town win even if n_m or Flub are actually scum but I think it makes sense for town to feel so radically.

pedit: the only game I played with UCV we couldn’t post any words

[Katyusha]

*aren’t probably

[Katyusha]

Scum are informed, town are not.

Both can do things that may be anti-town, but when there’s plausible town motive for something anti-town it’s important to put everything into perspective.

I think monkey’s calls for a quicklynch are null at worst.

[Katyusha]

Like with n_m, “L-1 and claim” is basically saying “this guy needs to die if he keeps this up” as I understood HEM. I think he was more trying to provoke me to get a read out of me when he was asking me about Bu’s intent.

^ I think these are both plausible explanations for why town!HEM would do so with both n_m and Flubber respectively.

If there's a plausible explanation either way, it's null unless there's a reason one is more likely. For me that reason it's more likely town is basically the rest of HEM's play

most notably i think is his trajectory onto hopkirk and further interactions i think shows he was thinking about the game uninformed and scumhunting, and also made a lot of sense to me.

[Katyusha]

I brought up uninformed/informed when I guess scum-motivated vs town-motivated would have been a better way to articulate it.

HEM's push started with "if flubber's town, who's scum" as I understand it which is why he picked hopkirk, but I'm looking more at how the read evolved into something stronger and not reliant on flubber's alignment.

if i'm not explaining your read correctly HEM you're free to correct me though

what's wk
also btw
this isnt an opinion, there's no way you can meta scumread ucv rn

wk = white knight, meaning should be kind of clear but it's basically when scum defend town without really trying to dismantle the push

[Katyusha]

Strongly, especially if your thought process going into a reevaluation is "well if that person I'm scumreading is town, then who would be scum?". Most people will be looking at their reads or just going by what feels right, so if theoretically someone had a townread and felt that someone else was defending them in a scummy way, it'd be fair to call that a white knight. I'd even think it's fine if you didn't townread whoever was being white knighted, especially because scum could just be poorly defending a partner.

If the Occam's razor's directed towards me, occam also says that HEM's calls for quicklynches are coming from town - I put more stock into how someone is engaging with the thread and figuring things out than anything else and HEM has been giving a lot of that in a good way to me. I've seen town do plenty of anti-town things that I don't think it's that great to read off of that alone.

pedit: lmfaooooo

[Katyusha]

Occam's razor would also suggest that he feels that getting n_m to L-1 and giving intent to hammer Flubber would pressure them strongly and hence is town

But I see your point there

pedit: It's not wifom, I genuinely think that this makes more sense coming from town lmao.

wait can someone talk to me im so lonely
im not motivated to read yet

do you think it's unreasonable i'm townreading seph and HEM here

[Katyusha]

Comment on my scum reads assholes

i feel

i might have to towncase HEM soonish when i'm not ready to sleep (being sick means my sleeping schedules going to be a bit weird and i'm also going to have to wake up early on wednesday so i want to make sure i dont fuck that up in advance) - i really think the quicklynch argument is bad and even if i'm wrong about HEM i dont think this is what would be scum motivated about his play.

i dont think he is calling for a quicklynch on n_m for reactions but i think his townread of me came from my reaction towards his consent of your hammer

as for bu thats basically why i'd be scumreading him here. historically i have a tendency to want to townread him when i engage with him even when he does obviously scummy stuff so thats probably why i'm nullreading him here

if you think hopkirk is a plausible 3rd scum though do you think that his interaction with HEM is SvS?

[Katyusha]

anyway - i'm probably going to try to stop reading and responding to the thread until tomorrow since i've basically been on here all day and i dont see beyond towncasing HEM what I'd be useful for besides spamming so i'm out o7

mostly posting this so i know to stop and dont spam anymore

[Katyusha]

Confidently stating "Flubb is town" and then giving a reason that definitely should not come attached with that confidence is definitely a white knight - a bad defense on a slot while it's being pushed that does little to actually dismantle the wagon. It wasn't taking the talking points against him into consideration when I'm fairly sure they were stated at that point, nor is a meta read based on something he did once that honestly can be done by anyone a strong enough point to really counteract the Flubber scumreads at the time.

Nor does HEM saying "when most found UCV suspicious" mean

he

found UCV suspicious. UCV was an RVS wagon and some people had suspicion attached to their votes, most people who had posted at that point expressed a willingness to lynch him!

dont really like the hem bandwagon at all - seph is definitely town on it if we're considering it {Flubber, Seph, Bu, Hopkirk} and I think the most likely scum on it is between Bu and Hopkirk.

VOTE: BuJaber

more regarding the situation when i'm back.

[Katyusha]

for the record i'm voting for whichever of hop/bu has more votes rn but when i case hop i'm going to urge bu voters to consider moving to hop since im more confident there

not back yet, on phone and want to give this more thought

[Katyusha]

It's so strange that you can town read NM for tone and then say something like this

???????????????????

I did address your reasoning on n_m (I absolutely have seen him make sense in town games before) and pointed out good points on why he seemed town at the time besides tone.

Do you think I white knighted not_mafia in a scummy way? Otherwise, why call this out?

pedit: I think he was saying there's one scum in the lurkers/inactives which I think is a reasonable read of the gamestate

[Katyusha]

does nobody else want to talk about how wolfy ucv's popin was

had the same thought but im engrossed in spilling the tea on hopkirk rn lmao

[Katyusha]

Not_Mafia is kind of obvtown and your meta where he's more useful as scum is definitely wrong since i've seen him play a decent towngame before (he mislynched me but like i was playing like complete crap anyway and it's also on my ~secret main~; he solved the game in lylo and would have won if it werent for a stupid mechanic that got him instalynched)...

besides decent tone

24 and 40 were also good posts that show townie thought process

theres also like significantly more to the hopkirk scumread than his townread of you but we'll get to that - im still in the midst of writing the post

key word in the bolded is "besides"

[Katyusha]

I was under the assumption that UCV rvs'd but then said we should try to get out of rvs as soon as possible which seems like a normal progression to me

though i guess that vote could have been serious - if it is UCV i'd actually like to hear what you think the scum motivation for that vote is

Why do we need solid scum motivation at this point? You sound like you're pushing against it trying to look townie.
The issue is inconsistency.
Plus we get out of RVS like he wanted.

What first made me consider scum!Hop this game was this post - specifically the second sentence.

Why is Hop shading me here? It was a weird line considering I was voting on the UCV wagon which meant that I was considering him as possible scum - obviously I'm not going to be pushing back against my own push, I would unvote if that were the case.

Since Hop seems like he's responding to my first sentence (UCV's progression seems normal) but is using context from the second sentence, the response feels like a non-sequitur and is ignoring the point being made. Obviously at this point I thought he could just be town misunderstanding me, but the consistency in how he continued to not see what I was talking about seems to me that there was some intention of pushing this point to an agenda, and backtracking yourself to be accountable to your mistakes would have hurt the push's potency. Obviously once it was clear that I wasn't getting lynched or scumread this game he backed off.

If he were just trying to sort me, I think he'd approach it in a more inquisitive manner. "You sound like you're pushing against it trying to look townie" is very different from "Why are you pushing against your own vote?". The latter, again, doesn't really make sense but it's at least clear in that case he's misunderstanding my intentions and can be cleared up easily.

---

I definitely agree with HEM that the Flubber read seemed out of place and white-knighty. I would think a town!Hopkirk would approach the read considering why Flubber was being pushed in the first place:

scumreads n_m for inaccurate meta and his UCV read is weird in light of the game’s context

Maybe Hop doesn't have the meta or context to disagree with the n_m read, which is fine, but if he felt he was town then Hop would have an explanation as to why Flubber wasn't considering sheep's meta or had a reason to disagree with sheep. "The wagon is bad" is also a perfectly fine reason to disagree with the Flubber scumreads, but as I pointed out the wagon composition at that time consisted of mostly townreads of Hop's so it's hard to give credibility to that reasoning.

The meta Hop gave is also kind of lazy. There's more to Flubber's entrance than voting onto a large wagon, and plenty of people do the same when they enter games. It's a very NAI thing to attribute to meta as well. I don't know how strong Hop's meta skills are but it still doesn't seem like a read I would use to defend against a Flubber wagon when there's more to the push to dismantle.

With a confident enough read to just write "Flubber is town.", town!Hop would probably try to explain his perspective better rather than just state it as he caught up.

---

I thought you'd be more interested in HEM town.

Something about this line also felt kind of manufactured to me. I don't really think it'd be surprising if he read HEM one way or the other and from Hop's posting it's clear he didn't intend to push on him as well, so townreading HEM there seems reasonable. Yet, why would Hop thinks this deserves special attention? I would think it's more likely that scum!Hop put HEM in his townreads so that he wouldn't look overly defensive and wanted to make that clear, and that I would assume that if town!Hop felt the interaction was TvT&T he wouldn't be surprised about me finding the read normal because HEM would seem clearly town to both of us.

I also question the read's genuineness considering Hop was happy to discard it once pressure came towards HEM's way. I think that, besides basically everything Bu has pushed, this is definitely one of the more opportunistic changes in reads.

I think this and the Flubber townread are both weak points in his reads that show that they're disingenuous. Hop's townread of Flubber should have further addressed the points being given better, and his HEM read seems to reflect more on the gamestate than what someone in Hopkirk's shoes would actually feel.

---

I think without going in depth about the argument that was had earlier, these are the most important points that lead me to feeling confident about scum!Hop.

Essentially, we can see that he's reading the thread from a different perspective that isn't inquisitive, provided a poor defense for Flubber when he was first being wagonned, and has reads that seem unnatural.

Kat, my current understanding of your hopkirk scumread is a whiteknight of me and his egregious misunderstandings. I think both points are kinda blah.

If explaining why they're scum motivated better doesn't help clear that up or make the points better, then could you give your reasoning for listing him as your 3rd scumread?

After a short break I'm going to break down why HEM is town.

[Katyusha]

oh before i go take my short break - with Bu this feels a lot like his scumplay in the game we played together (his first game, forgot the number but it's in my wiki) where he just kind of went with the flow and had kind of townie 1v1 interactions and went with the flow of the game until his partner was inevitably ran up

he seemed pretty happy to bus, hammer people prematurely, and contradict himself a lot there so

[Katyusha]

it's a wall ew

yeah thats right i spampost AND wall

the worst of both worlds owo

@Kat: I'm not going to respond to that directly yet since most people haven't been around to weigh in yet.
While we're waiting, can you tell me what game you looked at to decide what scum Hop or town Hop would do, because you're making a lot of very questionable assumptions about my meta right now. It sounds like a personality read to me, not a scumread.

It's got nothing to do with your specifically - when I try to read people I try to put themselves in their shoes in try to understand their trajectory. From what I've suggested town!you would do just makes more sense to me as the town motivated play from someone in your position. If you're town and thus what I would expect you to do is off, then let me know why that's the case.

Kat,

Your case doesn't go into much detail about the more recent interactions with Hopkirk and HEM. Dismissing it all as "happy to discard [the townread] once pressure came towards HEM's way" seems really confbias-y.

Valid criticism tbh, I just figured the point has been belabored so much that it'd just clog up the wall more and people already typically don't read walls and that HEM would probably be able to explain it better than I would.

Also Bu, I do intend to develop that meta read, although I was going to pick your most recent town game (the one where derpy is a SK) since you got mislynched and I'd see why that table scumread you.

There's a lot going on after this from what I see so give me a moment first.

[Katyusha]

I'm probably going to divide this into two posts (one to counter the argument that the way HEM's "encouraging quicklynches" is scummy, the other to explain why he's town in general)

---

I think on paper, Seph's argument that scum would simply push for quicklynches because it benefits scum makes sense on paper, but if you're going to use Occam's Razor like that, you need to look at the context here and make an alignment call from that. So let's start with the Flubber wagon.

VC please. Can we focus on a Flubb wagon? Thank you.

Flubb, why should we think you're town?

every time someone's being mass voted because I don't want someone to hammer and use the lack of VCs as an excuse

Don't unvote. If someone hammers, it would be AI and I'd like to see why. I'm actually good with the lynch if it happens.

I think these three posts show that HEM's intentions are transparently

not

to just off Flubber.

Him asking for a votecount and pointing out that a lack of a VC is an easy excuse for scum to "accidentally" quickhammer shows that he's at least taking precautions. If he was being careless and just wanted Flubber to get quicklynched, there's no point in doing this. He could

plausibly

be scum trying to get towncred from this but that's not the argument being made.

Sure, there's risk involved in leaving someone at L-1, but 193 and him taking precautions shows that he's aware of that and is specifically creating an environment where if that

were

to happen there would be sufficient grounds to analyze the hammer beyond an ambiguous "oh, well, it was an accident!".

To me, that seems like doing something that's anti-town (wanting to leave the risk of a quicklynch) in a pro-town manner (taking precautions that force a lolhammerer to be accountable for their actions).

---

VOTE: Not_Mafia L-1 this pls and make him claim.

I don't know how this could be more transparent in context, but the timing of this kind of made this obvious that HEM was annoyed by not_mafia's shitposting (possibly scumreading him at that moment, can't speak for monkey but that's what I assumed) and wanting to lynch him. If you're confident that someone's scum or want to bluff that, you're going to want them to die. The process for killing someone in the day is to L-1 them and force them to claim. This just seems really simple to me I don't know why it's being used as an argument.

I honestly thought I'd have something more to say about the n_m vote but like it just seems really obvious to me i dont know how else I can add to this point

but yeah there's? a very clear and obvious town narrative for this argument so

at the very least

this is NAI. if you're going to scumread HEM i'd like something that at least discusses how genuine these pushes are even

Also, Flub, there's a bunch of shit that you were willing to fly past you in your airy pursuit of my lynch. Never saw you comment on those? Instead you were busy shaping a lynch agenda for yourself. Eek.

+1

[Katyusha]

for the record if Bu/Hop is actually SvS then I don't think it's likely scum is in the lurkers/inactive slots.

just a hunch but i need to solidify my understanding of bu's meta and i have bigger fish to fry

can someone tell me what occam's razor is

the argument that the simplest explanation is the correct one

[Katyusha]

Kat, my N_M vote was to see if there are any people that would jump at N_M because N_M is a lynchbait. Also to see what N_M would make of that because he used the same language at the start of the game. The only way to read N_M, and the people around N_M, is through context.

i guess that makes sense as well

still, i tried walling why I think HEM is town but it's just not really a read you can case like that. i'll try my best to briefly explain it

i think the way he used the flubber wagon as i pointed out earlier was town, i liked the way he sheeped my hopkirk push with his own points and developed that read with the pressure our votes had together for us to come onto the same page without me explaining my read, and have mostly been in sync with him this whole game without my exclusive lead

i dont know if it's his caustic attitude or whatever that makes people dislike him but he's like obviously scumhunting and developing reads in a genuine way

[Katyusha]

Kat

The problem with that is that I'm more convinced on hop's portrayal than hum.

Though tbf, that's more along the lines of HUM being scum than me checking the citations

you should probably check the citations because hop's perspective is wrong and continues to be wrong even when he's held accountable...?

im not caustic. im the friendliest person. im just calling it how it s. there are way worse people in mafiscum than me stop this fakenews

i dont really know how else to describe it

people obviously seemed to be annoyed by you bc this feels very you + me vs everyone else and sheep kind of unsure

Kat,

Let's argue from the premise that hum was attempting genuine reaction tests.

Why can HUM then not point to a single thing about how they forwarded town? Why do you have to do that for him?

What does this say about him not willing to interact with me like he did with hop until there's evidence that people are starting to see what I'm catching on to? What does this say about the fact that it looks like he's faking reads? What does it say about him trying to get pressure off himself by calling my aggression uneccesary?

Because most people don't argue why they're town and let their own ISO shine or let other people step in? I'd be doing the same thing here.

Your other questions are all kind of loaded but uh

i can understand why he'd be annoyed interacting with you considering there's definitely an agenda being pushed on HEM, he doesn't look like he's faking reads, and i dont really have any qualms about that

You know what this means, Kat. Hydra time after this game. If you're scum, I'll avoid playing with you again for leashing me.

dw im town

im definitely guilty of like lazy white knighting when i'm scum and i'm putting way more effort here than i actually want to

I think these three posts show that HEM's intentions are transparently not to just off Flubber.

Him asking for a votecount and pointing out that a lack of a VC is an easy excuse for scum to "accidentally" quickhammer shows that he's at least taking precautions. If he was being careless and just wanted Flubber to get quicklynched, there's no point in doing this. He could plausibly be scum trying to get towncred from this but that's not the argument being made.

Sure, there's risk involved in leaving someone at L-1, but 193 and him taking precautions shows that he's aware of that and is specifically creating an environment where if that were to happen there would be sufficient grounds to analyze the hammer beyond an ambiguous "oh, well, it was an accident!".

I suppose. I just don't think its particularly hard to take that stance and appear protown as scum here. At the end of the day he does want a quick lynch, if not a 'quicklynch', namean?

Like I said, it's possible he's scum and acting protown to achieve an anti-town and scum motivated (assuming they are different here) goal. But I think weighed against the rest of my read on him it's more likely he's town using this for information.

I don't think it's remotely close to a best case scenario but there definitely would be some utility in a lolhammer happening at that point if I didn't unvote considering what HEM did, so I guess that's the difference between it being a quick lynch and a "quicklynch". There's information to be gotten from a quick lynch, a "quicklynch" is obfuscation.

Kat,

You keep doing this thing where you wallpost your reads but still don't comment on the aggregate of their play.

I mean it's easier to summarize the aggregate of someone's play by just giving a sentence or two like I did with town!HEM and did with scum!Hop at the end of my case. The point of giving a wall is to show individual points that lead to the conclusion. Sometimes it just doesn't work out.

pedit: yall i just want to post

[Katyusha]

Flubb could you explain your viewpoint here more clearly then? Monkey's trajectory seems fine to me.

pedit: oh good you got activated~

[Katyusha]

ok moving on. can someone explain to me what these last few posts that HEM made mean. I read them, but i was a bit confused on what he was trying to get cross

how much of the game have you actually read? this is a conversation that has been going on for a while.

[Katyusha]

Consistency isn't inherently townie? What's the point there.

Monkey's justification for putting sheep in that post makes sense to me

It's Flubb and Hopkirk, but Hopkirk-Buj does not make sense. So it could be sheep, as the third partner. Quote this in end game.

like monkey has visibly been going back and forth on sheep since he's been defending hopkirk and very neutral with the Hop v HEM interactions - so in a "call the team in a post" esque post it doesnt stick out too weirdly

considering he doesn't think Flubb/Hop/Bu makes entire sense it's natural to consider other people, and he's either going to pick from a useless slot he has at null (UCV, Serg, Schism) or a townread. And sheep is the townread there that makes the most sense from his pov. picking a useless slot is meaningless here

fundamentally i think sheep is obvtown but disagreement is nai, and considering he's voiced why he has hesitance regarding sheep and has pushed it before this point it makes perfect sense

[Katyusha]

i also dont like how you're defending hopkirk

i townread him, and i dont think he's a good place to put votes
what's wrong with that

i think the perspective is coming from someone who isn't town. just because it's not written in the wiki, doesn't mean it's not valid.

also i think your defense is not coming from someone who is town. even if hopkirk is town here.

like

it's a thought he's definitely had very early on

if you're eliminating suspects you're eventually going to hit your townreads and have to cut losses on what you previously found town

[Katyusha]

How would monkey know which of the contentless slots to put in? They're basically all identical

at least with sheep he has previous suspicion that makes sense in that team dynamic.

[Katyusha]

I mean I concede that that's what most people (including myself) would do, but the point is I see where monkey is coming from and it makes sense. It might not be intuitive for everyone but saying it's a scummy trajectory and that it doesn't make sense is wrong when you take into account that he's had doubts about Sheep's alignment.

That does remind me that if Serg is going to keep doing nothing game advancing I wouldn't mind offing his slot at this point.

[Katyusha]

ive outposted everyone D:

I'm only 3 posts behind you.

I do want to take a break though bc mozamis needs to post imo

can we talk about serg wanting to massclaim

probably a dumb joke and im not going to act like it's ai

[Katyusha]

a lot of people

... you have over a 1000 posts on mafia games, surely you know by now outting PRs day 1 means that scum can figure out who to kill?

this is a normal game so set ups are designed to be hurt by massclaims more than helped.

[Katyusha]

Not_Mafia
sheepsaysmeep
Internecine
Katyusha
Sephiroth
mozamis

DeWay
Schism

Sergtacos

BuJ
Flubbernugget
Hopkirk

i just sort of assumed this was an unordered list since i'm not at the top but

sure, the list isn't putting that suspicion into account. does it need to?

HEM said that he feels sheep is mostly town and only didn't like some parts of his gameplay. I don't think you can act like this is a smoking gun though if he has reason to not act on the parts he disliked and thus townreads sheep, and if the read was taking associatives into consideration.

Both of which are the case here.

If you want to talk about scummy trajectory let's talk about Bu.

are people seriously taking my quotes seriously omg yall need to tone down a bit man. like its common sense that we shouldnt have a mass claim on d1, i just wanted to see some answers to my post lol jesus

called it lmao

[Katyusha]

Serg, what did you get out of your massclaim call in terms of reads?

[Katyusha]

It isn't backpedaling if he already stated reason to scumread sheep, which is the point.

[Katyusha]

You first

The Bu wagon stalled kind of awkwardly and that intrigues me.
unvote, vote: Bu

I love that I can even enumerate points in slideshow-esqe bullets and still get told I'm treating a single one of them like a smoking gun

ok

pedit: nvm nsg's got it but still

[Katyusha]

@Hop

UC Voyager (5): Not_Mafia, Hopkirk, Katyusha, Sephiroth, Flubbernugget

At its peak, this was the UCV wagon. Yes, I edited myself in but that's because I unvoted myself shortly before the VC

at that time I had an uneasy feeling of you, didn't like seph, and didn't like Flubber's vote; I scumread you more now and still think Flubber is scummy, though seph is townier to me

so from my pov now it's really just a meh wagon considering i think i'm still at the point where there's too many empty slots to think that I could be right about Flubber or you being scum - at the time though unvoting when I only had one townread made sense

I think people will just bandwagon in RVS because it's sort of part of how you transition out of RVS. I don't think it's town indicative, even if that wagon in your last game was all town.

---

I mean I guess but the point is you were against the Flubber wagon and didn't really substantiate your read that well. White knight is just a buzzword that makes the idea easier to communicate.

pedit: If there's just a difference in how you approach town games I think it'll be more clear to me as the game progresses. I'll clarify my points in a bit (i'm still tired after the coffee i drank should kick in so i might nap or something. hate being sick) but I think you're misunderstanding what the point of comparing town!Hop and scum!Hop is. If it's really worthwhile I'll try to take a look at your scumgames and see what is AI for you if you just scumhunt in a bizzare way but the method I'm using has at the very least worked in the past because town inquisitiveness and scum latching a narrative onto something are pretty simple things to recognize.

pedit: sorry bu i'll read your post later but im getting really tired

also can we call monkey monkey? thanks

[Katyusha]

god

first of all I’m going to be v/la today sorry

anyway, before I opened up the thread I skimmed bu’s iso in gödel’s game and feel that it felt a lot more focused and less contradictory. An incontext read will probably help more but I don’t really know how much credence I should give bu’s self meta.

if my count is correct he’s at l-2, yes? I don’t want him l-1’d until I do a better read on this

we have time and the schism slot still needs to be replaced

[Katyusha]

UNVOTE: Bu

Lmao

[Katyusha]

My vote’s there in spirit, I just don’t want a claim yet

[Katyusha]

VOTE: Bujaber

Lets add more pressure

Serg, any specific reason you’re adding to the pressure?

[Katyusha]

moz i’m still missing why you townread flub

I don’t think it’s inconceivable I just don’t really see the argument still

other than that I agree w your poe pool (w monkey on the scumpool still being too big)

I got my phone SIM card working so while on the train I can skim and make crappy drive by posts but I’m probably going to focus more on meta rn

-

for the record, i dont get the obsession with pagetops, who gives a fuck lol

when backreading it helps me a lot since I always know where the vc is and get an idea of what’s happening

[Katyusha]

townblock of kat, hem, moz, nm

seph in lieu of n_m or just there and that’s where I’m at

I don’t really want it solidified as a thing though

[Katyusha]

Am I counting wrong or did Serg hammer Bu on 30

Yeah - that was L-1 and I unvoted in response

VOTE: DYKDW

more of a placeholder but uc is definitely avoiding the thread at this point so this is a fine wagon while I think about bu

kind of reading whenever I have a moment but if it’s not clear I’m not paying close attention

[Katyusha]

I’m

pretty confident that wasn’t a hammer? I remember counting earlier to make sure

[Katyusha]

yeah I just confirmed it was hammer

i’m fine continuing though because if it said 6 I would have unvoted

back later

[Katyusha]

DYKDW or Bu?

Schism slot literally never has posted we’re not hammering

[Katyusha]

or getting a claim

[Katyusha]

if he’s vanilla, what does that tell you as a townie...?

there’s literally no use of a claim right now unless we’re lynching now

[Katyusha]

I don’t think it’s an unreasonable fear. Why would a Bu/Hop/Flubber team like Monkey was hypothesizing bus when they have plenty of other lynch options, like mozamis or DYKDW?

I think one of those three has a good possibility to be town from that as well - probably between Flubber and Bu

[Katyusha]

yeah I mean I agree that the idea of an “info lynch” is dumb, but Bu could possibly be scum’s intended mislynch - I need more data and the schism slot to post

monkey’s thought process makes sense to me too and is how I feel to some extent

[Katyusha]

DYKDW please post something useful or die

we can see you’ve been online and yesterday you’ve at least shown you’re keeping up with the game

spam isn’t really an excuse. We’re nearly at 40 pages sure but there’s so much content at this point you could really just skim any active slot’s ISO and start getting reads from that

stop active lurking and play the game

[Katyusha]

What have I missed?

A very eventful 48 hours.

Major wagons and controversial slots are Flubber, BuJaber, Hopkirk, and HEM. DYKDW/UC Voyager’s the leading wagon but it’s an active lurking slot

Widely and unanimously townread slots are me, seph, n_m, and sheep.

That’s just a very barebones explanation though

[Katyusha]

HEM is monkey for clarification

[Katyusha]

On the train so about to lose data btw

[Katyusha]

Why is DoYouKnow a leading wagon they have 0 alignment indicative posts?

Because it’s easy for scum to just coast on shitposts and not actually reading the game when they clearly have opportunity to

If he’s town here’s his chance to show it.

What do you mean by not seeing anything in Bu’s posts? He has a lot of content...?

[Katyusha]

Eh. I tend to townread his tone and like how he interacts with me (I played in his first game and he was scum), but I don’t really like the way he contradicts his own thought process a lot

Like his intent on Flubber and some of his votes didn’t really seem to fit his thought process

there’s a point though in that he’s kind of widely scumread

Do you just null him or do you think he’s town?

[Katyusha]

DoYouKnowDeWay (5): sheepsaysmeep, Not_Mafia, humaneatingmonkey, Katyusha, Internecine

very town wagon imo

intern is kind of a low content poster but I’ve liked his stuff - probably my only doubt at this point

[Katyusha]

Are you two serious right now? 851 is clearly when I was mixed up witht the setup and 852 is where I remember.

Also following up on this

That has nothing to do w my question since you said you still wanted a claim

How does a claim help town!Hop at this point if we’re definitely not lynching?

[Katyusha]

That Bu can’t get into the game or UCV/DYKDW?

kind of confused bc ur replying on my post about bu

but yeah if you’re reading the whole thing that’d be appreciated. Take notes though - the game is kind of complicated imo if you’re reading up (following in real time it’s fine but i’ve done shorter catchups and know it can be rough)

Bujab felt moderately town to me someone talk to me about your case on him.

I’m probably the wrong person to ask since I wanted to verify some meta and didn’t get to since I’ve been out all day - the post you quoted is my 2 cents on him though

[Katyusha]

is it a stretch to say he interacted to you and seph’s pushes on him simply because he townread seph and scumread you

also talk to me more about this previous game - how was that game similar to this one? Did that game also have a slot that just didn’t show up for the first two days? Were his scumreads pushing each other?

I normally don’t hesitate to lynch my scumreads here either but this game there’s a lot of reason to take things a bit slow. Context and circumstances are always key.

pedit: reads are a perfectly fine place to start

[Katyusha]

VOTE: Internecine

Interesting vote - is that just from your catch up?

[Katyusha]

yeah I do a town case on him sort of

if i’m pocketed he did a really good job making his Hopkirk push feel real and nuanced

[Katyusha]

I just felt like he was voting in the right spots at the right time - more of a gut read more than anything

you actually have a pretty good point though

[Katyusha]

Speaking of deway I’m just saying that I’ve been in a normal that moved slower recently and UCV replaced out as town because he didn’t have the time to commit

just got home and i’m a little pooped so at some point I’m going to jot down the things I want to do tomorrow gamewise

pedit: only bizzare reads are hop town. I can kind of see flub!town but his reads and votes feel more scum to me

rem is also town fwiw

[Katyusha]

Town: monkey, seph, sheep, rem, mozamis, n_m
Null: Intern, Serg
Scummy: Bu, Hop, Flub, DeWay

I need to take second looks at Bu and Hop’s meta, and at Intern’s posting

Serg needs to be useful - he has some semblance of town thought process but it’s lacking and not that hard to fake. I buy his inactivity being related to the time of year

Other than that this feels right to me.

pedit: lol monkey aren’t you the boss lmfao

also winter break is ending soon so that’s fine for me too

[Katyusha]

ftr that’s not orderered

[Katyusha]

Ordered*

I’m not that stupid

[Katyusha]

why is Moz town? last question before I get off the face of the earth for 36 hours. (i better not be here with 40 more pages)

I’ve seen his scumgame and it felt a lot more passive and flat

same tone for what it’s worth but how he’s actually approaching the game feels out of his scumrange

he’s actually putting work into using his town hunting to push reads, for example

when he was scum he was just like “oh this person is town .” and then basically did nothing until I replaced in and called the scumteam (at which point it was clear I had to die from his POV)

[Katyusha]

also production is one of those jobs that sounds cool but like I never feel like i’d like

at my high school (went to a vocational school that’s basically an art school even though I took programming classes there) film was like one of the major fields of study and the intro to DV class and screenwriting class was just... egh. being able to write for that is a pretty cool skill

i’m happy with our game’s pace fwiw - we have a good content:noise ratio even if it’s long. Look forward into doing more

[Katyusha]

I would prefer intent!

I'm fine with a claim and lynch at this point.

[Katyusha]

What changed from it being a placeholder?

UC continuing to ignore the game and Rem posting.

at this point though i'm fine with the hammer

[Katyusha]

ucv if you were town A: please actually play the games you sign up for, and B: out last minute reads for us

ty

[Katyusha]

when he comes here
he'll have been prodded

you realize that?

......

what if he was like on his phone or something

his prod comes in like 4 hours lmao

[Katyusha]

I have!

It's not like there's any point to the lynch if there's no threat of a hammer if UCV doesn't post

thinking on it more though ucv should only claim if someone gives intent.

[Katyusha]

ok moving on. can someone explain to me what these last few posts that HEM made mean. I read them, but i was a bit confused on what he was trying to get cross

he's clearly trying to read and follow the game here

if he genuinely just hasnt bothered beyond that, that will be apparent when he posts

[Katyusha]

If he wanted a summary he'd ask for one. He was asking for an explanation of something he read

You're also ignoring the fact he's been online and posting elsewhere the past few days. He's ignoring the game deliberately.

[Katyusha]

at the very least give him the chance to respond to his prod

post or perish is still very relevant - cant post if you've perished.

[Katyusha]

he'll be prodded in 2 hours.

[Katyusha]

you'll find out soon enough moz

trust me this is not a very secret alt

pedit: intern is a good place after we work out ucv. serg's inactivity is kind of understandable and is sitewide iirc

pedit: sounds like a plan moz

[Katyusha]

whomst owo

[Katyusha]

i came out here to have a good time and im honestly feeling so attacked right now

[Katyusha]

it's not policy

[Katyusha]

He has been online and posting in other games.

He has a past precedent of replacing out of games when they get too fast as town.

Don't provide excuses for him if they're not there - if he has an issue with the game length then he can voice that but he still has shown that he's reading along in his subsequent posts.

DYKDW is a big boy, I'm sure he can defend himself on his own. Especially considering his lynch is for more than just inactivity.

[Katyusha]

Townreads or townleans on everyone except
Kat

tell us more

also if you dont have a townread/lean on ucv what are you gaining from defending him here

[Katyusha]

why are you trying to work out d1 by teams?

if you're town you're just going to wind up confbiasing yourself - start by explaining how my play is scum motivated and let's work from there

like nothing about this change in thoughts feels organic but i dont see the harm in humoring you

[Katyusha]

Mod Notes: Prodding DoYouKnowDeWay

and now we wait

[Katyusha]

would it be beneficial to wait for ucv to get replaced and then have the replacement claim
like if he's a strong semi confirmable pr this would be a huge loss
we would still have a lot of time to redirect a lynch too

i think so but i cant see him lurking it out

he's either going to request a replace out or catch up and explain himself

[Katyusha]

There's a difference between how hop and hem are doing it flubb

not sure how you think i havent been open about detailing my read on you tho hop

[Katyusha]

Go on

"I'm going to say I caught the scumteam of Hop/Flub/Sheep in this post but not actually play the game right now as if that's the team because I'm not absolutely sure about some of my other reads." and "There is a possibility I am wrong about Bu considering Hop and Flub are happy to lynch him on D1 when there's other options, I need more data"

vs

"I'm townreading or leaning everyone except a set of 5 people, and these three people have interactions that make me feel like I have found the scumteam"

There's a big difference in these mindsets I think that should be kind of self-explanatory. If not, one is using potential interactions to take a step back and reevaluate in the case he's wrong. The other is coming to a pre-written conclusion.

I don't see what reason Hop has to not explain the scum perspective of my posting.

Ah. Flubb is town.

I've always been more sure of Hop anyway

[Katyusha]

"There is a possibility I am wrong about Bu considering Hop and Flub are happy to lynch him on D1 when there's other options, I need more data"

maybe i should rephrase this

"maybe one of my scumreads is wrong considering the other two are pushing them"

it's the same point but worded more clearly

[Katyusha]

the lynch isnt pretend and seph is useful

can we just wait for dykdw to contribute or die? i'm completely serious when i say i dont think this is townie active lurking

if thats even a thing

[Katyusha]

What are your thoughts on the intern wagon?

great place to start after ucv posts assuming he does something town

i want the spotlight on him though right now

[Katyusha]

or if he lurks/replaces out at this rate

wont have a savory impression on the replacement but still

[Katyusha]

i felt like he took a while to really get his footing in the game whereas his scumself in listmod mafia didnt really have a point where he hesitated and didnt have reads

pedit yikes

i dont want to remove pressure from ucv but L-3 isnt significant anymore

VOTE: intern

enjoy your free pass from L-1 impending doom dykdw, hope you post something soon owo

ppedit: a claim count for what

[Katyusha]

are you suggesting you claim now?

why would that help at all

[Katyusha]

that was a really dumb time to claim especially considering you could hide your shot/see who jumps on the wagon but still

VOTE: dykdw

[Katyusha]

by "hide your shot" i meant to say not out your role until intent is given

[Katyusha]

SKs are a thing you guys nothing about that claim is towny

if he's a SK he locked himself into a vig claim D1 which is usually -EV for them

the best play is to leash him or just let it resolve if consensus is this is a worthwhile train of thought

pedit: that too. sk is literally the most garbage role in all of mafia. full offense to anyone who likes them

[Katyusha]

also i think if he were mafia he'd claim even night

claim is more likely than not town

[Katyusha]

no. not after my recent encounter with a claimed vig turned sk.

And he lost that game, didn’t he?

[Katyusha]

the pedit is to a post 20 minutes ago
the pedit2 is to a post 2 minutes ago

what happened here

I do that a lot

Also yeah Bu I’m a girl

please also acknowledge in that game I was an IC (innocent child IC not the other one) and the initial intention of this alt was to change my posting style. it felt really awkward for me and hurt my d1 play tho so I’m back to spamming

considering most of my friends struggle to meta me I don’t think you would be able to off of one game - not that my scumgame is fantastic and I know some of my tells but still

pedit: I want hop out of those the most

[Katyusha]

that’s cool

and yeah I just get really annoyed when I’m meta’d wrong bc I got pushed by ppl who should know better who thought I had a lurkerscum meta

[Katyusha]

Gonna be blunt but I don’t think moz is ever a good vig shot

I just always say shoot scumreads

[Katyusha]

dont hammer without a claim

[Katyusha]

like im not unvoting but at least ucv say something

[Katyusha]

Can you recap me on what is AI about UC's behavior? If its meta I disagree.

He's had time to post and think about the game while being online and just... hasn't. At least Serg has some game advancing content, even if it's bad, and is also on v/la

But UCV isn't on v/la and has shown he's keeping up with the thread to some extent. Why are we getting nothing from him, then?

Lurking isn't AI, but actively choosing to lurk is scummy.

pedit: At this point I just want content. Post or perish.

[Katyusha]

well if being at l-1 does nothing either way we can vig the slot and lynch someone else too

i think i want to sleep on this though

[Katyusha]

also that was more of a general read on people - like when i read shitposters in general i think about how often they're posting and the noise:content ratio they have

his posting on both accounts is just noise - if you can post noise and show you're reading you can post content

maybe ucv is different, who the fuck knows, but i dont think it's townie

pedit: the thread will live. breathe. inhale. exhale.

[Katyusha]

alternatively i can do it for you

[Katyusha]

☭

☭

☭

☭

☭

H

A

M

M

Є

Я

T

Ї

M

Є

☭

☭

☭

☭

☭

VOTE:

D

о

У

о

ц

К

и

о

ш

D

ё

Щ

a

џ

"c

a

p

ї

т

a

l

ї

s

м

в

a

d

g

a

џ

g

о

о

d"

-

-

-

-

-

c

a

ґ

l

м

a

ґ

к

☭

☭

☭

☭

☭

H

A

M

M

Є

Я

T

Ї

M

Є

☭

☭

☭

☭

☭

[/size][/align]

pedit: whoops

[Katyusha]

well

hammer's a hammer

ucv were u town and if so please out last reads

[Katyusha]

oh i fart them out constantly

[Katyusha]

ty

intern you should probably out a few vig targets - i dont know how i feel about a serg vig considering hopkirk is still around but i dont like leashing entirely because if you make good shots you might be able to prove you're not sk. i wouldnt oppose either

pedit: owo

[Katyusha]

tho i still kind of want to know hop's argument for me being scum

[Katyusha]

Kat has me as his top scumread (except UC). Despite this he isn't pushing me. He's wanted wagons on other people but isn't trying on me for some reason.

I am a she and there’s plenty of reasons to not push your top scumread - you

know

this

I’m working with the rest of the town to push scummier blind spots - and if the UCV wagon turns out to be a bust then we can move on from it and let the replacement speak for the slot

[Katyusha]

my one and only toneread was n_m?

why do you keep insinuating I’m using exclusively tone to make reads

[Katyusha]

Not_Mafia is kind of obvtown and your meta where he's more useful as scum is definitely wrong since i've seen him play a decent towngame before (he mislynched me but like i was playing like complete crap anyway and it's also on my ~secret main~; he solved the game in lylo and would have won if it werent for a stupid mechanic that got him instalynched)... besides decent tone 24 and 40 were also good posts that show townie thought process

???????????????????

I did address your reasoning on n_m (I absolutely have seen him make sense in town games before) and pointed out good points on why he seemed town at the time besides tone.

Do you think I white knighted not_mafia in a scummy way? Otherwise, why call this out?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=74417

^ also n_m town game i kind of wanted to talk about earlier but it was ongoing at the time but n_m is absolutely capable of being logical as town (he'll always retain trollishness but like it's possible to townread it)

but i've at least pointed to a non-meta and non-tone reason I townread him at the time. i dont see how either of us belaboring this conversation is productive but i have ample reasoning for all of my reads

[Katyusha]

I'm not insinuating you only make tone reads. It was often the only explanation as to why you disagreed with my points outside of me saying they're just bad.

?

what read is this talking about then besides n_m because thats the only one i recall mentioning tone in

[Katyusha]

ok

[Katyusha]

Thinking about monkey's suspicions of you buddying him, you might just be coming from weird angles to grab a hold of the game state instead of scum hunt.

also this implies monkey town + im wondering how you would be able to differentiate between the two here

help me out a little?

[Katyusha]

Do you now see the Hop-Buj binary that I've been seeing?

like ive been saying if bu is scum he's very willing to throw his vote at his partner here

i dont know yet if it's a binary

anyway at this rate i dont think threatening the dykdw slot will do anything so im fine waiting for a replacement to woo us

[Katyusha]

i mean i agree that game is a bad indicator of hop's meta but if anything that should show that moz is town here

and im also not really seeing how being wrong or right about someone's meta makes them scum





still eagerly waiting hop's scumcase on me

Thinking about monkey's suspicions of you buddying him, you might just be coming from weird angles to grab a hold of the game state instead of scum hunt.

also this implies monkey town + im wondering how you would be able to differentiate between the two here

help me out a little?

I've been easing up on monkey being scum because if someone is extremely loud about something you're doing and you don't change it in the slightest, you're probably standing behind a genuine belief.

Though more importantly, I don't hunt scum teams D1 and I've made it incredibly obvious I don't hunt scum teams D1. I'm working hard to respect the different ways people scumhunt and you should probably give me the same respect here.

thats fine? if you havent noticed ive been warming up to the idea you may be town

i was hoping you'd give insight though on how you would tell if i'm genuinely scumhunting vs looking for something to latch onto in the gamestate though