Open 708: Pick Your Poison - Game Over

[Thor665]

Hey all.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

I have a couple of town leans already I think

Why announce town leans without expanding on them?

Normally I'd vote Maxous at this stage, but there are two really lovely three vote wagons going, and unlike the last few posters I'm not scared of pushing one of them. (feel the shade, lads).

VOTE: PenguinPower

Basically sheeping Cult's call here paired with going and looking at Penguin's site iso and noting that there was no other game activity happening at the time, so why was he hanging out exactly?

[Thor665]

Yeah, but from my perspective there was enough to get one town read - and I consider myself pretty aggressive on early reads on average, so for you to have more than me twigged me.

[Thor665]

Also, that you're delaying explaining them also twigs me.

[Thor665]

Why in the world should I consider the EP wagon more viable than the wagon on you?

[Thor665]

Also you hadn't done any mod duties for, like, the previous 12 hours - so were you just hanging out waiting to mod?
Meh.
Excuse sounds weak.

[Thor665]

Previous 8 hours to be more accurate.

[Thor665]

Also you hadn't done any mod duties for, like, the previous 12 hours - so were you just hanging out waiting to mod?
Meh.
Excuse sounds weak.

You realize there is a whole backend to the site that you can't see, right? Where the admin team discusses site related things?

I mean, if you want to use this as a way to get out of RVS keep on pushing it; but, it's a really weak argument to begin with.

I do and am using it as a way to get out of RVS.
I find your response kind of skeevy and now want to flip you.
I don't think the argument is particularly weak, and it's certainly stronger than your EP argument.

Why announce town leans without expanding on them?

because someone would inevitably ask for detailed explanations of page 1 gut reads

What is there to say? Is it not possible to have a vague impression of a town read that would sound ridiculous to put into words?

Hii all.

The way she puts 2 'i's instead of 1... so friendly and relaxed, probably town.

Sure it's possible - but what does that have to do with anything?
You're claiming Maxous is too shy to share a silly read they announced? That seems pretty 'meh' to me.

PEdit - if you think I'm chasing a low hanging fruit (and I am blatantly chasing the Penguin wagon) why aren't you tagging me over it directly instead of empty side line commenting on it to see if other people agree with you before you go in on the thought?

[Thor665]

I won't argue that it's stronger than the EP argument which is almost entirely for the lulz. What's skeevy about my response? The fact that I called out what you were doing? The fact that I called it weak? Both? Neither?

The skeeviness is that I honestly find it unlikely that you were sitting around active in a hidden thread while also claiming that my case is weak.
Like, if you have an excuse of 'I was in a hidden thread that you couldn't see and that's why I responded so fast'.
Okay,sure, maybe.
But by the time you're telling me that - it doesn't gel that you also think the case is weak, because you're having to defend that you were here and active on the site and are aware that the evidence I brought up doesn't support that, which makes the timing look suspect.

So, yeah, you're shade casting me, trying to distract with an empty case, and are on desperate defense.

That's skeevy.

[Thor665]

I've never liked it when a player goes after another for a non-game related reason. I'm not entirely sure if it's a scum tell or not, but it's page 2, so I don't really care.

What about my reasoning isn't game related exactly?
It's timing and activity and behavior - that's all game related last I checked.

[Thor665]

Because I'm not about to say "hey everyone, thor is

clearly

doing this scum thing despite there being other equally valid explanations for his behavior". That would be pretty hypocritical considering my stance on Penguin, wouldn't you think?

For example one of those equally valid explanations would be that you're overly-aggressively scum hunting right out the gate. In this scenario, Beefster's casual defense of Penguin may be viewed in an incriminating light.

I'm not looking to pin everyone down as 100% scum or town on page 2. I'm just looking to put various information on the table so opinions can more quickly be formed.

What made you call out my action unprompted and Beefeater's only when needing to justify your actions as non-scummy?

The case on it's face is weak. It requires that scum submitted their choices and mod was online at the same time, and scum knew this. Then scum would be patiently watching for the mod to open the thread so they could make the first post To what end? What's the motivation for scum to do that?

There is no motivation.
There is however a higher likelihood that a scum would be active at a similar time if the mod was present right when scum submitted.
You are honestly saying you can't even understand my issue now?

I also was active on site at the time the thread was opened.

This is not true from your postings in threads I can see.

Also, where was I throwing shade at you?

My bad -you often say someone's case is weak and act incredulous at their rather plain stance when you're building them up?
I must have misunderstood you.

[Thor665]

well, sounds like you know his meta and i dont. still, it's ballsy for scum and this early in the game, i'm inclined to say more likely to be town than scum.

Hey all.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

I have a couple of town leans already I think

VOTE: Maxous
This looks like a blatant attempt to look like you're scum hunting without actually doing anything.

I second (well, first) this - and encourage it to become a topic.

[Thor665]

However, how do you know that scum submitted the choice at 5:30CT last night? Without knowing that, your statement is irrelevant. There's no greater chance that the reason I posted when I did was:

a.) Coincidentally logging in, seeing an open thread, and posting in it.
b.) Being active on site, seeing an open thread, and posting in it.
c.) Being scum who somehow knew that the mod received my team choices and was going to open the thread so hung around to see the thread being opened to be the first to post even though (by your own admission) there was no motivation to do so.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I think that its weak. Hell, c. sound downright insane.

A-C are all possible, though I find it skeevy how hard you are working to try to make C sound as crazy as possible (which is just you continuing a very actie and aggressive defense of a case you deem weak.

Let's put it this way - if C is possible (and the earliest poster also lacks any other activity at that time) then C equates to a higher than totally random chance that the first post is scum, ergo it's a valid case, a case that is *good* for RVS, and a case that, though weak, within the context of th egame was by *FAR* the strongest case made.

And you are digging and dicking around with it.

It's skeevy.
You are skeevy.
(and you did throw shade)

58 makes sense, let's see those reads then. Although I don't think page 1 reads can really help scumhunting at this stage.

It at least requires him to establish reasons for having his tls...although he later walked it back to gut reads.

VOTE: Maxous

I like this for now.

Why Maxous over Moneybags?
Do you have no opinion on how Moneybags has interacted with both the push on you and Maxous?

I didn't think it was prompted at all. I was just throwing out additional notes.

What made you "throw out notes" on me and not Beefeater at that moment?

[Thor665]

Athena and Penguin were a bit towny in the first couple of posts. I didn't mention names because i wanted to avoid the Q&A but it happened anyway.

Why them at that stage?

And if you want to avoid questions in the future - don't mention that you have reads that you don't want to explain

[Thor665]

Looking at in in ISO I look forward to these leans being described.

[Thor665]

I don't see a difference in saying that vs making a comment on you going at penguin's throat. Which at this point is more clearly an interrogation and not a push for a lynch.

CLearly we are not communicating functionally - here's the timeline as I understand it with my question restated for clarity;

You: Thor is pushing for low hanging fruit, amirite?
Me: If you think that, why aren't you coming at me over it? I think you're looking for support before getting behind something.
You: Because you may not be scum, for instance, look at Beefeater's thing too - maybe you're town.
Me: Then why call me out and not Beefeater at the same time?
You: I did call out Beefeater.

So to clarify/reask my question;

Initially you *did not* call out Beefeater's actions. You only called out mine in a scummy light.
Why do that if you also had questions about Beefeater/didn't really think I was scummy for what I was doing?
Walk me through the whole thought process if you can.

Penguin Power did not throw shade.

Activity tells are Smurf, and they will always be Smurf.

We are out of rvs. Please shut this argument down.

Yes he did.
No they aren't.

Okay - let's start a new conversation - how about any reads at all from you?

And you are digging and dicking around with it.

I've done none of that.

I look at your iso and see a lot of defense/attack posts based around my case on you.
If that's not dicking around with it in your opinion feel free to replace dicking with whatever word you care to - my point holds as factual.

Because I wanted an answer to the question from Maxous?

And had no interest in Moneybags at all?
Or do you consider the Maxous answer as needing to be vetted prior to Moneybags?

Looking at in in ISO I look forward to these leans being described.

really.

i thought moneybags in particular has some good early-game posts.
> he's clarifying thoughts on all the situations
> playing devil's advocate to multiple people
> while not pushing any lynch agendas

what more do you want.

Well, what "more" I want would be an answer to what I asked.
Your reads on Penguin and Call.
I didn't ask about Moneybags.

[Thor665]

Penguin will be scum if all they can do is continue to argue with you

Penguin will be scum unless he posts a smilie in his next post.

[Thor665]

You're case is built around Penguin's status as a queue moderator. I don't think that's very sportsmanlike and reeks of typical garbage reasons used by scum.

My case has literally nothing to do with his status as queue moderator.
His defense has everything to do with it.
So how is my case built around it exactly?

Penguin will be scum if all they can do is continue to argue with you

Penguin will be scum unless he posts a smilie in his next post.

You're better than fallacious analogies

What's fallacious about my comparison there?

I'm not going to claim I can read Thor right now, because I can't. I think he's still playing the way he would play either alignment and will continue to do so for some time. He's someone I'll look into later on.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... arently.29

CallofAthena can be town now.

[Thor665]

You're joking right? You really don't see the difference between saying there's one thing he shouldn't do and one thing he should do?

So if I'd said the one thing Penguin shouldn't do to look like scum is post a smilie you would have been totally okay with it and got my point?

[Thor665]

Timing tells are still garbage Thor.

I can show you them working.
It's just like meta, or any other tell - it's as effective as how it is used, and even though it can be used badly it can also be used well.
I don't get your point here - are you saying I should have used a better tell in RVS?
Seriously?
This is empty noise, what are we debating here?

Pls make better pushes cuz based on that wiki thing you posted you're probably a sk right now.

What are your issues with my other pushes?

Pedit: no. You would have a different point then. Be explicit about what you're getting at or something

My point is I was making a jab at you coaching him into how to get your approval.
I fail to see how changing "do this" to "don't do this" would change my point - can you explain that?

[Thor665]

I mean your push against me now sucks too

I'm questioning you, but I haven't called you or anything you've done particularly alignment telling, so...

I think seeing what I did as coaching makes your complaint make more sense. Think of it this way: if I'm already of the opinion that your timing argument isn't worth discussing, why would I town read someone who's only focus is that argument?

Oh, I *agree* that Penguin's position was iffy - I said so before you did.
I just don't get the idea behind telling him 'yo, stop doing A and I'll read you townish'.

You're welcome to show me a tell based on timing actually working. I've never seen it before. Also, you've said that you're no longer attaching to this argument as a means to get out of rvs, so why are you even bringing that up?

I'm bringing it up as a means to assess what your alignment is because you're taking time to attack it and I wish to know why.

How many examples would it take to make you admit my timing case is brilliant and you should sheep me? Give me a goal to work for and I'll offer you examples.

[Thor665]

I just don't get the idea behind telling him 'yo, stop doing A and I'll read you townish'.

The general idea is that calling something out makes someone less likely to do it. Even if penguin is scum, they've now lost a tool to bog the thread down with bullSmurf.

Eh, your commentary felt like clear defense of him and attack on me even on re-read.
Also, I'll reference this below.

I think an example of a timing tell with an explanation of why it worked and how it applies to this game and an example of a timing tell that didn't work with an explanation of how it doesn't apply to this game wouldn't take much effort, and would be useful in discerning your alignment.

Do you agree?

No, I totally disagree because all that's asking me to do is make general game references about something that I fail to see why I'd lie about as scum considering everything I've ever said about scumhunting and how it works.
But I'm game to play your tune for a bit just to see how you field it.

An example of a timing tell that didn't work and how it doesn't apply to this game I would reference a game wherein I was scum and was going V/LA. Since we were near LYLO I left instructions with the mod as to who my NK would be in assorted situations. Town opted to 'test' me by arranging a quick lynch. Since I leave my site activity public. In LYLO town became convinced I couldn't be the last scum and cross voted, so I returned from my vacation, logged in, and got the easy win.

That is different from this game...well, in basically every way imaginable, but the obvious one is that since Penguin actually posted - we know he was physically here and posting.

For an example that worked, I was in a game once where a scum (Bella if I recall correctly) was lurking and had a claim against them that they had done so to avoid participating in a buddy's lynch (which was straight up true as they had been active elsewhere). It saturated for a time and eventually got them lynched, I remember it mostly because I was also scum (in a different team) and used it to help clear me after the flip.

It's applies to this game because it disproves your bone-headed claim that timing can't work as a scum tell, and then forces one to ask 'well, is Penguin's action and defense of it scummy in some way?' to which the answer is yes, and you *also* are now claiming that you find his defense potentially scummy, so it makes me wonder why you're wasting my time.

[Thor665]

Looking at in in ISO I look forward to these leans being described.

really.

i thought moneybags in particular has some good early-game posts.
> he's clarifying thoughts on all the situations
> playing devil's advocate to multiple people
> while not pushing any lynch agendas

what more do you want.

Well, what "more" I want would be an answer to what I asked.
Your reads on Penguin and Call.
I didn't ask about Moneybags.

@Maxous.

[Thor665]

Looking at in in ISO I look forward to these leans being described.

really.

i thought moneybags in particular has some good early-game posts.
> he's clarifying thoughts on all the situations
> playing devil's advocate to multiple people
> while not pushing any lynch agendas

what more do you want.

Well, what "more" I want would be an answer to what I asked.
Your reads on Penguin and Call.
I didn't ask about Moneybags.

@Maxous.

@Maxous (if you're intentionally avoiding answering please let me know so I can stop reposting the question).

[Thor665]

Call = Cult of Athena.

I'm asking you to explain your leans on her and Penguin at the point you claimed you had the leans.
Something I'm still looking forward to you answering.

[Thor665]

Thor, I expected better than defending your counterexample by virtue of it being a counterexample. How does that show me you didn't get lucky and lynch scum for the wrong reason? I'm well aware that yes, you *could* catch scum on timing. That doesn't convince me that it's a useful path of pursuit to find scum.

Well, part of that difficulty is you randomly and suddenly adding the caveat of 'how does it apply to this particular situation' which makes it more difficult to find a strongly applicable tell as opposed to the far easier job of showing that the tell generically can work.
Also, since your claim was 'timing tells are junk' not 'timing tells based off game start and mod posts timed to a apparently unactive slot's start are junk' I think my answer is very valid.

In addition, asking if I would like examples of timing tells working, and then telling me doing such is a waste of time comes off as incredibly disingenuous.

I never said the examples were a waste of time.
I *did* say that you claiming you could read me off the examples was a waste of time.
Learn to read?

Also Thor, is there a reason your interrogation of me isn't a push yet? You're usually quick to discern my alignment.

I am?

I feel like this miscommunication is due to a very polar difference in our play styles. So far I've been making passing comments to generate discussion. You have been interrogating people which gets reactions and also generates discussion. I can see why you would take an issue with me being less confrontational.

It's not a playstyle issue.

You opted to call me out.
You did not opt to call out anyone else.
I'm asking why and you're not answering yet.

Thor: Do you have any opinions on people you haven't mentioned yet? I know you've been busy with PP and Flub but I'm interested in what else you have to say.

I have also offered reads on Max and Athena and hinted at some on Moneybags.
When I have other reads I'll offer them.

[Thor665]

I feel like this miscommunication is due to a very polar difference in our play styles. So far I've been making passing comments to generate discussion. You have been interrogating people which gets reactions and also generates discussion. I can see why you would take an issue with me being less confrontational.

It's not a playstyle issue.

You opted to call me out.
You did not opt to call out anyone else.
I'm asking why and you're not answering yet.

@Moneybags - 5th verse, same as the first.

Thor, what changed from 110

Nothing.
What do you think changed?

I like the idea of a Flub v. Tex wagon adventure.
Bella is now an acceptable lynch to me also.
Beefster is wasting time.
Errant is playing right near the very edge of strategic lurking and should knock that crud off.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

[Thor665]

I replied to that post in 168.

To clarify my issue - it's the timing for me.
You attacked me in a sideline way.
When asked you stepped back to try to call it a neutral opinion (ignoring that your initial comment was straight up attack) and also then tossed out other thoughts that you didn't opt to share until called on it and then claimed those thoughts were actually similar/identical to your initial call out even though you didn't initially state them at that time.

You're scummy to me now.
If you get a better answer to that issue feel free to toss it out.

EP said they have been sick. Even still they've contributed more than Tex and PP.

Are you calling that scummy?
Are you saying you think EP needs votes?
You're sidelining again.

Errant is playing right near the very edge of strategic lurking and should knock that crud off.

I'm disappointing you yet again! I'm in travel all of today, driving back to uni. Scout's honor I'll be here when I get back.

You've already lied to me about when you'd post next once, I'll try not to be too disappointed if this is another lie.

s

o scum in Klick, Hewho,Errant,Flubber,Bella, Tex,Moneybags

3scum in 7, not a bad lynch pool for day 1.
Before people go mental, these are PROVISIoney
ONAL DAY 1 reads. I like to be captain obvious, get a sensible lynch pool going for day 1.
I AM NOT SAYING THAT TOWN POOL are confirmed. It just helps me focus.
But yeah, we should defintely be looking at those 7

Have you looked at those 7 yet and come to any thoughts?

I am still suspicious of COA.

Why?

uhhhhhhh
this is a poor vote
why exactly is he voting flubber?

Why is it a poor vote?

Also, if you dislike my vote, why are you totally fine with Beefster's 210?

[Thor665]

then you change your mind under a tiny bit of pressure?!
yep, Beef is scum.

He does indeed change his mind after it doesn't pan out. But it did distract people, like moz.

I'd love for either or both of you to describe to me where and how Beef changed his mind exactly.
He clearly changed his vote.
He never indicated in any way I can spot that he changed his mind.
Clarify?

For the record, Money shopping along with Moz's (as far as I can tell) unsupportable claim is another reason I am not a fan of the Moneybags slot.

One thing that worried me about Beef is that he was the first to "jump" on Thor after the latter brought up the timing argument which Thor then later said was to get out of RVS.

Just to clarify I never said that.
I probably said something like 'it got us out of RVS' - but I would never have said I pushed a case just to get out of RVS, because that would be bad play.

I really just feel like you're projecting your interpretation of what I was meaning with my beefster remark vs my remark on you.

I am not wrong about the timing.
And as I just said to you the timing is a big part of my issue.
So...this is empty word porn at this stage, it's making a lot of noise but has no soul.

Moz seems a bit lynch focused.

Why is that an issue worth mentioning?
Everyone should be lynched focused to some degree if they understand how the game works.

[Thor665]

I'd love for either or both of you to describe to me where and how Beef changed his mind exactly.
He clearly changed his vote.
He never indicated in any way I can spot that he changed his mind.
Clarify?

I was echoing moz's terminology to describe how Beef went from "time to vote someone else" to "that didn't pan out, back to flubber". He said he's still suspicious of COA. At least for me, using that phrase was in reference to his vote change. I don't know if moz actually thinks it's deeper than that.


No comments on any of the points brought up against Flub?

How is changing a vote an issue?

@Moz - feel free to chime in here on my 253.

[Thor665]

No comments on any of the points brought up against Flub?

What points do you think I need to comment on exactly?
Short answer - no.

[Thor665]

@Moz - to you I would repeat the question I asked Money - what's scummy about the vote change really? (also, maybe my memory is off, and it's late so I'm not ISOing - but didn't he answer when asked, and hold vote location, and then later move when I moved my vote to Flubber? - because that's how I'm remembering it, and if I'm right that seems like a very reasonable flow of vote location - what am I missing there?)

In other news, walk me through the idea that scum votes Athena at that moment.
Like, over half the game had just finished having a race to put her on their town lists.
Double fake out scum move?

[Thor665]

P.O.E town: Moz, thor, swims,money,flubber,maxous and cult.

Lynch in: Penguin (drops out of town bloc because no scumhunting yet),Bella, Beef, errant,klick,tex

I guess what's bugging me is most or your reads I agree with - except for Beef and Flubber (and very softly Swims, but I'm nullish there)
But I *heavily* disagree on both Flubber and Beef.
And your Beef push feels nonsensical.

[Thor665]

I guess Money too, but I'm maybe being paranoid there.
He is directionless enough he may just be town whose play bugs me.
But he's very empty feeling.

But defend the Beef thing.

[Thor665]

My concerns stem from it being a strange thing to see right after flub starts taking heat. Which only matters in the context of both Beef and Flub being scum. If one or neither of them are scum then it's probably nothing. That whole post of beef quotes from me is mainly in context of his interactions with people that are suspect to me.

I get that your scum read of Beefster is in correlation to your other reads.
I just fail to see how the vote switch is somehow scummy even within that context.

Hm, I feel like my posts are getting ignored here. I also didn't get really get any responses that I'm satisfied with from my questions. Is it my posting style?

If you feel like you're being ignored or not getting responses then, yes, it's your posting style.
Note how when I ask a question and it's not answered I keep quoting it and asking again and again?
I get answers that way.
It's my posting style.

[Thor665]

the highlighted quote answers the question.
i don't see a concise, clarified reason for the vote. It's jumbled up into wall posts that people have to struggle to figure out.

Okay, so to get this straight;

1. You didn't understand the reason for my vote.
2. You agree I have expressed issues with Flubber and you find them difficult to piece out.
3. So you have an issue with my info not being clear and easy to understand.
4. So you complain that the entire Flubber case is bad, and that my vote is poor instead of just asking me to state my reasoning.
5. You don't reveal this until I ask for you to clarify your stance.
6. Your beef with me is that you think I'm trying to intentionally be hard to understand - ignoring that I'm the one getting actual info out of you by asking direct questions.



What's your issue with the Flubber wagon again?
I feel like I'm missing something here.

hmm finished.
Still saying no to a flubber wagon. Also no to a beefster wagon

You are aware that the Beefster wagon just died and I killed it, right?

my two scumreads are Penguin & Bella.
Two null-scum reads in Thor & Texcat

everyone else is fine

I like your scumreads fine.
I can understand null on Tex, and even though I have a vast amount of info to parse for my alignment I understand that people get lazy and refuse to read me.
But you're fine on *everyone* else?
Like, they're all decent town reads for you?

Can you explain why Errant and HeWhoSwims are decent reads for you?
Because I'm not there with either of them.

Yeah I guess this puts it well. If he's town why would he not change his playstyle if it's not helping his game / his WC?

Yeah I guess this puts it well. If he's

scum

why would he not change his playstyle if it's not helping his game / his WC?

Why is your sentence valid and mine isn't?

[Thor665]

I would make the suggestion that, as town, theoretically you're playing the game to scumhunt and when as scum you're playing the game not to get lynched.
Therefore, if your scumhunting style involves you getting some dirt on you - then if you've been playing as long as Flubber you are already aware of this and have accepted it.
So why the change?

Seems a reasonable point of suspicion to talk about to my mind.

[Thor665]

Thor voting for me after "not pushing me" because they're interested in me vs tex interactions is some absolute weaksauce

Anyway, this is still plenty enough reason that my wagon is bad.

Like what?

@COA/follow-up: I don't have any examples of you sheeping reads because you don't have any actual reads. It's mostly stuff like "I see what you're saying about player X" and "I don't like X from Y" (which is usually after other players have said basically the same thing), but none of this is concrete opinion of "I think X is scum/town"

Hey dude, if your issue is she's sheeping reads, and she counters that she's not - and you come back with 'well, okay, you aren't but you're still scum because 'x'"

Then something is screwy with your logic here, yeah?

Also, assuredly I have "sheeped" one of Cult's reads that was totally original when she came up with it.
So how is sheeping her scum strategy exactly?

[Thor665]

The most valid issue I see you bringing against her is you're unsure of her reads.

The answer to that is not to vote her.
It's to ask for her reads, and *then* if there's an issue voting her, yeah?
Why are we burning time on this?

[Thor665]

@Cult - please state your current reads.

[Thor665]

I get a sense that he's consciously trying to be the biggest player in the game, I don't know how I feel about that.

You shouldn't get a sense of that.
I'm blatantly doing it.

[Thor665]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Then why bring it up at all if it's meaningless to you?

[Thor665]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Then why bring it up at all if it's meaningless to you?

I didn’t think it was blatant. I don’t know you or how you usually act. That how you always scumhunt?

As far as I'm aware this is how I always play.

How is it not blatant?
You're saying that I *don't* overtly appear to be trying to control the conversation and exert my will on the gamestate?
How am I subtly doing it?

[Thor665]

Thor, your question to me does not make sense

Yes it does - if the case on you is actually bad you ought to be able to explain why it's bad.

[Thor665]

@Mod - I know it's minor, but it always helps me when replacements start happening - could you update the first post with who is replacing who? It can wait till the second replacement pops in. Thanks and lurvs in advance!

You don't have a case.

You've never asked for my case, so how do you know whether or not I have one?
Oh, right, this is just more empty posting like you've been doing all game.

@Thor:

Could you please explain why you find Flubber scummy to me? Show some of your cards; I want to see what you're seeing.

Short answer - gut.
Long answer - I'll break it down to a single point to try to explain the gut. But basically Flubber went in pretty deep on discrediting/attacking me. In and amongst that attack he leveled a complaint that our meta together shows I read him fast and he finds it questionable on some level that I haven't read him fast enough here. And that's a reasonably valid stance to have, I suppose.

Except I don't recall that as a meta with him - so I asked him to back it up.

I got crickets. Nada. Zilch. Zero.

Now, on a theoretical level - let's say he's town, therefore what he's saying is true.
Why wouldn't he throw that info in my face to force me to respond to help him get a read on me/prove to others I was scum?
I can literally think of no reason.

Now let's say he's town and he recalled wrong - is there any reason outside of personal shame not to kind of go 'oops, recalled wrong!' and adjust how he's interacting with me because now he has a better read of me because he's corrected wrong info?
Nothing I can think of - and his attitude towards me assuredly hasn't shifted, has it?

Now let's say he's scuma nd was lying/misrepping the reality of our history.
Avoiding *that* discussion makes a whole lot of sense.
Doubling down with a "ooooh, I said Thor should read me fast and now he's voting me" curls my toes also as it ignores that theoretically he claims to think I *do* read him fast and hard, and also ignores that I tried to interact with him functionally multiple times and he's avoided it while claiming I'm not reading him fast enough.

He's been avoiding a lot while casting shade and mud constantly (reference my ongoing of just trying to get him to explain why he thinks the wagon on him is bad considering all the shade he's tossing out about it)

That;s why I'm voting him.

Only read to like page 7 and here's where I'm at

1. mozamis town
2. Thor665 town
3. PenguinPower * me
4. HeWhoSwims leantown
5. Moneybags towny but bad vibes can't explain why
6. Bellaphant weak tr
7. Klick scum
8. Flubbernugget town
9. texcat null
10. Beefster townish
11. CultOfAthena nullish
12. Maxous town
13. Errantparabola dead null

Why are you TRing Bella? That slot has been trash thus far. Null? Sure. But town?
Also, have you looked at CoA's most recent reaction post to the wagon on her? That is screaming town to me, why aren't you getting the same read?

[Thor665]

And no Thor, I didn't explicitly ask you for your case on me, but I casted suspicion on you never posting one almost immediately after your vote.

I agree that your goal was to make me look scummy for something that wasn't scummy.

I don't recall you asking me to back up my meta read at all. If I didn't answer your question, why didn't you quote it several times like you did with maxous?

You're still not answering the question I notice.

It's very fair to consider the wagon on me bad when the player known for being able to make strong cases isn't making an actual case on me.

Who is this player?
Because if it's me - what's the evidence in support of me making strong cases?
And if it's not me - whose case are you dogging on?

[Thor665]

And no Thor, I didn't explicitly ask you for your case on me, but I casted suspicion on you never posting one almost immediately after your vote.

I agree that your goal was to make me look scummy for something that wasn't scummy.

I don't recall you asking me to back up my meta read at all. If I didn't answer your question, why didn't you quote it several times like you did with maxous?

You're still not answering the question I notice.
I didn't re-ask because I never once felt that you had done it accidentally.

It's very fair to consider the wagon on me bad when the player known for being able to make strong cases isn't making an actual case on me.

Who is this player?
Because if it's me - what's the evidence in support of me making strong cases?
And if it's not me - whose case are you dogging on?

[Thor665]

@Transcend - now that you're caught up want to talk to me about CoA?
I'll agree some of her posts look weak (though not really scummy), but the way she fielded the accusation of her 'flail' screams town reaction to me - why didn't you get that?

[Thor665]

1. Just because other people aren't able to sort me does not make your "attempt" by default good. My point is very valid here.

2. I still note that you aren't taking up the challenge of backing up the meta, and are even now giving *yourself* slack by admitting yu don't normally meta.

3. I'm serious - when have I ever claimed to make great cases OR who has ever claimed that about me?
I would describe my meta as minimalist cases.
Where are you getting this made up meta claim? Is it the same place where my fast reads of you come from?

[Thor665]

Like, your entire bug-a-boo against me appears to be formulated by saying I'm playing differently then a made up person who is not me.
And then you're annoyed that I'm not impressed by how you're scumreading me and find it scummy?

[Thor665]

trying to think of anything more to say but meh.

here's just my gut reads and feelings, fuck it

I think they're town:

HeWhoSwims, Moneybags, Klick, Flubbernugget, CultOfAthena

Haven't had an issue with:

Errantparabola

Players i'm flip-flopping on:

mozamis, Beefster

Tracker claim:

Radiant Cowbells

Under Review:

Thor665, texcat

Probably just scum:

Transcend

What's the difference between 'haven't had an issue with' and 'under review'?

Fork, I would rather not be voting ErrantParabola today: how do you feel about Beef/Transcend?

You can also try to sway me on Flubber.

I've presented a case on Flubber - what's your take on it?

Why not vote EP? He is radiating scum.
Beef I town read.
Transcend now has the claim so.

jsyk HWS endgamed as scum not that long ago

are we all sure he's town ...

How does that affect this game in any way at all?

So I'm willing to hear out a town case on her, but "x's reaction to y" doesn't really sell me.

What would a town case be that is *not* x's reaction to y'?
That' like, every decent town case ever, yeah?

thor, out of those 4, who would be most willing to vote for?

Errant

[Thor665]

I'd also note to the person/people claiming that "I am?" is not a valid enough question.
Well, since then I have very explicitly and multiple times asked Flubber to answer the question - do you see his answer yet?

[Thor665]

Beginning a catch up now

The tldr is probably going to be:

-> Transcend not doing anything, making PP's original tunnel on thor look scum motivated
-> Thor ignoring my issue of him treating players asymmetrically by flapping his arms and saying I don't have a meta case on him

For those keeping track.
Yes, Flubber is still ducking answering the question.
You'd think he'd answer it just to undercut me at this point since he claims to think I'm scum.
But he won't, because then he'd have to reveal that the case is empty and he's scum.

What's the difference between 'haven't had an issue with' and 'under review'?=

Uhh the difference being these players I think *have* acted scummy and i'm keeping an eye on them.
though that being said, since then i'm coming around more to the possibility of Errant being scum.
You're scum-reading him yeah?

I know I haven't been very clear on my suspicion of Errant.
But, yes, I suspect Errant.

[Thor665]

Confirm or deny that you've been relatively rather quiet since I showed up in the game?

I can confirm that, though deny it has any connection to you or this game which even spending twenty seconds glancing over my site posting would confirm.

Why is me being "quiet" for the massive period of time known as "Thursday" worth even asking me about exactly?

[Thor665]

Flipping Flubber would also give answers.

How do you feel about his dodging of my question after it was made abundantly clear it was a question?

[Thor665]

I don't think we'll ever see 2 night kills. We'll never be sure.

I'm talking about Flubber, not Transcend.

Thor and/or RC, could you help me get the answer I want from Transcend, since he is very blatantly ignoring me?

If he's ignoring you - that's your answer. Now it's back to you to react to his response.

[Thor665]

I actually think denigrating a lurker flip is anti-town. They're really actually just as good as the so-called "info flips" people tout.
That said, vote Flubber, I like that thought.

[Thor665]

It's difficult to react. Because claiming vig makes no sense as scum, and he's claiming desire to shoot me and I don't understand his reasoning. I feel like I'm locked out of the game because someone replaced into the game with a gun and decided to shoot me and ignore all my posts.

Well, if you believe he's the Vig then the only answer is that you, as town, should do what you can to express your reads clearly and push for a functional scum lynch.
Of course that's what any town player should do all the time regardless.
I don't see why the threat even matters, personally.

I actually think denigrating a lurker flip is anti-town. They're really actually just as good as the so-called "info flips" people tout.
That said, vote Flubber, I like that thought.

How so? If EP flips town and we have 1 NK, where does that leave us?

Allow me to reverse the question because what I'm arguing is a little different then a claim that a town flip is good info; let's say we lynch someone you think is a "good info" lynch and they flip town - where does *that* leave us that we wouldn't also be able to apply to an EP town flip?
Because I'm pretty sure all we get is the ol' "we know their reads were honest" which is meaningless because it doesn't then advance their reads as good.
And the ol' 'those who pushed thema nd defended them we can analyze' which we can do for anyone, because lurking doesn't prevent people from pushing or defending a slot.
What else is there for the "info lynch"?

For those keeping track.
Yes, Flubber is still ducking answering the question.
You'd think he'd answer it just to undercut me at this point since he claims to think I'm scum.
But he won't, because then he'd have to reveal that the case is empty and he's scum.

I'm not ducking your question. I told you I misunderstood your question as a rhetorical statement, and then took your word that my meta recollection of you was misrembered.

Are you arguing that I was correct on your meta this whole time?

No, you're flapping your arms and making a Smurf Smurfing case that, if wasn't Smurf, would only be pointing at a small point of my play, which is not how you find scum.

I have never indicated in any way shape or form that I agreed with your meta read.
I have repeatedly indicated I thought your reads were made up and asked you to back them up.
I agree it's a small thing - which is why your inability/refusal to provide it is a big thing.

Please prove you weren't lying to try to call me scum in a scummy way.
Any century now?

[Thor665]

I agree with RC above in a less crude way.

@RC - I was kind of serious when I asked why you were bothering with that limp run at me though.

@Money - is that a roundabout way of agreeing with me that Flubber is ducking and weaving?

[Thor665]

if someone can towncase coa then i'll happily laeave her alone

I already raised a town debate with her with you - was told that X doing Y was not a valid town case and then asked you to explain what was a valid town case since that is the basis of basically every case ever and you never replied.
Want to answer me now?

I daresay that you are aware that if I was scum who wanted to mislynch you I could do a lot better than that.

If you were town and testing me you could do better too. I disappeared site wide for around 30 hours - and you want to say it's because in this game I was scum who got scared so much of you I needed to do so?
How do you even begin to reach that conclusion?
Like - have you ever seen me as scum hide from anyone ever?
Why do you think i would?
What would I even gain if I did?
Are you only able to tell if I'm scum within the first 24 hours or something?

This isn't exactly related to the game. But it matters because this is the first time I've had any personal interest in a Mafia game in over three years. I'm going to be extremely bothered if that ends early because someone replaces into the vig slot, randomly scumreads me, doesn't have any reasoning, and shoots me while completely ignoring me asking them to justify themselves. That's why I'm making such a big deal out of this.

That's called luck of the draw. It's like being afraid to go in the water for fear of a shark attacking you. Yes, it could happen - but are you supposed to change your lifestyle over it?

That leaves my available options as texcat, EP, Thor, Maxous, and HWS. I do think the scumteam is within these five players.

If you think I'm scum why did you ask me to save you from TranscendVig?
It's not like I've shown any particular control over him that I'm aware of, so...?

someone define scum!EP

plz

Opportunistic voter who is lurking.
I would challenge you to point out any original thought he has offered or stance he stated before anyone else - and would be willing to wager a reasonable amount of money that you couldn't which makes me think I'm correct in thinking he hasn't.
That reads as scum to me.
Why do you not scum read him?

1. Scum is primarily lurking, with a potential scum or two in Thor/HWS avoiding obvious lynch option Beefster while also not talking it down.

I have openly defended Beefster multiple times, and even acted proud about it once - what are you talking about?

Where I'm at right now is that if Flubber is scum, several of the people I think might be scum are probably town

I could see me and maaaaaybe Money (who you claim to already town read).
So what are you talking about?

errant's a low info lynch, i'd rather spend the lynch on someone who will provide lots of info.

No info lynches are an illusion.
Or maybe info lynches are illusions.
Same difference.
Also, if you agree he's a "low info" lynch then you're already halfway to agreeing with my case on him.

[Thor665]

Beefster's reevaluation doesn't look natural

What re-evaluation?

Yeah, I have time to talk about this now.

First, we can dissect all the lamist bullshit in 632. I misread it as a re-evaluation as opposed to a flat-out submission, but my issue in it lies elsewhere. First, "saying lynch me for info" doesn't solve the game. It absolves you from having to take responsibility for your actions, and it flat-out

does not

assist town. It gives you a free pass to do nothing, which is actually creating

less

information for town.

Lets look at this compared to the rest of your ISO. There's no frustration. There's no considerations or evaluations that your reads may actually be wrong. There's just this "gut" thing being thrown out to look good.

But...very interestingly...your scum reads got called out for the entirety of the page before 632. You got caught, and cracked under the pressure.

My town read on you stemmed from you being self-aware, but I now see that it was just a sign of you needing to leave your reads open to hide from suspicion.

I dinged Beefster for bad logic earlier in the game and he admitted it was bad logic and adjusted.
How does that reaction fit into this theory case of yours?

I have never indicated in any way shape or form that I agreed with your meta read.
I have repeatedly indicated I thought your reads were made up and asked you to back them up.
I agree it's a small thing - which is why your inability/refusal to provide it is a big thing.

Please prove you weren't lying to try to call me scum in a scummy way.
Any century now?

This is a lie.

You did not ask me to back my reads up. You asked me to back my meta read of you up (apparently...I still think you used wishy washy language to give yourself breathing room for a push). I had a whole wall of town reads you have made no mention of, yet you still have evidence that I'm faking my reads? hahaha no.

You never actually commented on why I thought tex was scum. You voted me on some other fake grounds as to how I'm reading you.

You voting for me over texcat and then backpedaling to explain why I am scum shows preferential treatment of one player to another. That is scum motivated.

You pushing me to be attentive to the game at a higher standard than other players shows preferential treatment of one player to another. That is scum motivated.

There are a lot of whines here.
None of them are backing up your BS meta claim.

You better be IC - it's the only way my vote is coming off you.

[Thor665]

Vote: HeWhoSwims

I actually find it interesting all the shade I'm getting - seriously none of you have ever seen a fake IC claim before? I've seen it less than fake day vig, but I've seen it more than once.

@Flubber - don't make up meta when you're town.

[Thor665]

I think a Beefster lynch is a straight up bad idea.
Tex...meh.

[Thor665]

Thor, why are you voting HWS?

And if you're going to provide the answer "because he's scum," my follow-up is "why?"

Because I'm sheeping town who isn't arguing something I think is unlikely.

Because HWS isn't texcat and he can't get away with lynching Beefster. Look at how fast this HWS wagon is getting of the ground. Is this not strange to anyone else?

Yeah, I can't get "away" with voting someone I've been openly defending all game and openly argued with two people when they claimed I wasn't defending him What do you even think you're arguing there? If I'm scum, i'd be scum with Beefster and already clearly of the mind to defend him.

Could you describe why you feel Tex is a slow wagon and Swims is a fast one? I'd put them in the same general ballpark for speed and support.

[Thor665]

When you complain that I "can't" vote Beef you're asking me to interpret the game from a scum mindset - because town me just wouldn't vote Beef.
Then you're asking me why I'm not voting a slot that you are noting I've not interacted with - here's a hint, for starters lack of interaction equates to lack of read.
Also I've had a lack of interaction with HeWhoSwims also.

Also, you appear aware that speed might be an issue to wagons, yet are calling me out bass ackwards over the wagon speed, and are ignoring that I appear to be intentionally creating a situation where two wagons on two players that I don't have good reads on are now directly competing.
Congrats - you've caught me scumhunting.

What else am I doing that confuses you?

[Thor665]

Vote: HeWhoSwims

I actually find it interesting all the shade I'm getting - seriously none of you have ever seen a fake IC claim before? I've seen it less than fake day vig, but I've seen it more than once.

@Flubber - don't make up meta when you're town.

I DIDN'T MAKE UP META YOU SMURFING TWAT I SMURFING TOOK WHAT I INTERPRETED AS YOUR WORD THAT I WAS WRONG ON IT

If you're going to use language like that let's do this test;
Back up your claimed meta.
If you can't - then I was 100% justified to suspect you for using fake meta on me and you need to grow up.
I don''t talk to you like that, don't talk to me like that.

.

VOTE: he who swims

These speedwagons don't make me happy but that I can see why they would happen

sweet vote
what worreis me about Thor is this "oh it could be a fake claim "stuff. Unless i've missed something, we havent had a cc/another claim, so it obv isn't fake.
it reminds me of how i've been as scum, that frustrated "why cant these townie see that THEORETICALLY it could be fake" etc etc when we all know that in PRACTICE no townie is gonna fake claim VT.
and LOL @ Max voting for Errant. Classic scum vote parking.
calling that Hewho, Thor max scum team.

That is a pretty weird misrep of what I said.
Go back and pay attention to the timeline again and then let me know if you still think this.

HeWhoSwims not throwing in our face that he is town now that he is hammered makes me feel oddly hopeful.

[Thor665]

@Transcend - ::trombone sound for that shot choice::

@Moz - you're seriously going to call my vote on HWS a scum/scum interaction? Because that feels like some aggressive mental gymnastics.

@Flubber - yeah, I did focus on you all day, until you were IC and then I parked on and encouraged a scum vote....so...derp on you?

@RC - stop wasting time making fun of Transcend, the shot was bad, and I get the urge to mock him, but even one more post on that from you is active lurking.

VOTE: Errantparabola

Could also do Klick.

Not sure I see Tex.

[Thor665]

Um...well, I would tend to hope your desire to not suck would resolve the issue.
No?

[Thor665]

see what if I think that there are alignment indicative reactions to be garnered from repeatedly requesting people to vote transcend

I would sadly roll my eyes and ask you to let me know what you learn once you learn something, well aware it will never come up again in the thread, like most ridiculous claims of 'it's scumhunting' I hear.
Feel free to prove me wrong this time.
I'll wait.

Smurf me, I was really banking on dying last night

I wish Transcend had done us that favor, frankly.
Dramatically improve your play or get lynched.

[Thor665]

On top of

still

trying to stay away from tex with a ten foot pole, Thor comes out of the gates D2 begging for town cred off the hws lynch.

Not buying it

Yeah, I'm asking for town cred off that lynch - because it's daft not to notice how town my vote was.
Why do you think Moz is scum reading it without addressing my question to him about it?

[Thor665]

Like, I literally created the situation for that lynch FL - go read the flow again.

[Thor665]

It will be so annoying listening to your head swell as you advance a bad read blindly - but those are the breaks.
Thanks for ignoring the question and shutting down I suppose?
Learn to play.

What's your read on Klick and why do you think Tex is a likely scumpartner to Swims?

[Thor665]

176 doesn't make a lot of sense as buddy interaction to my mind - as a quick rebuttal to the texcat lynch today.

[Thor665]

I think the best place to start looking is at the 4 remaining who did not vote for HWS. While it's certainly possible that scum bussed HWS, I think it's unlikely that both scum voted there.

Do you think it's more likely that both scum voted him or both scum didn't?
Because it's super safe to expect one in each location, so...

Also, still hate Beef wagon.

[Thor665]

If you believe him - sure.

[Thor665]

Yeah, but he started stronger than Errant.

@Moz - you're seriously going to call my vote on HWS a scum/scum interaction? Because that feels like some aggressive mental gymnastics.

@Moz

[Thor665]

you never pushed HWS at all. You pushed Flub all Day and then voted Hewho when Flub was revealed as conf town.

Yes, yes I did do that.
Lots of people pushed Flub - it's why he claimed.
The question is, are you claiming my scum goal was to hard push a mislynch, and when I found out my first chosen target couldn't work, and I had a few options I was like 'meh, let's bus'.
Because that's what you're claiming my plan was.
Does that plan sound like a plan to you?

Also, the fact that you desperately tried to push the idea that Flub might not be conf town was some scummy BS.

I didn't do this and mentioned that to you yesterday.
How do you see me doing this?

and why EP?
looks to me like EP is todays lynch bait.

You've played enough to know that lynchbait is non-alignment telling, so why are you wasting my time with this point? How does it apply to EP and not tex? Yesterday was Flub and HWS also lynchbait?

[Thor665]

@Moz

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 1#p9909721

[Thor665]

So your case is predicated on me having a bad plan you can't even describe?

Vote: Mozamis

[Thor665]

Vote: HeWhoSwims

I actually find it interesting all the shade I'm getting - seriously none of you have ever seen a fake IC claim before? I've seen it less than fake day vig, but I've seen it more than once.

@Flubber - don't make up meta when you're town.

this is you casting doubt on Flubbers claim. Also, note you give no reason for voting HeWho.

So your second claim is I was trying to get people to not believe the claim *AFTER* the mod had confirmed it?

[Thor665]

And I did explain my vote when Moneybags asked me about it.

[Thor665]

@Moz - you are correct, I have not suspected you all game.
But your case on me is really incredibly shallow and you should recognize it deserves attention since you're harping on me to explain my vote reasoning at the same time, this shows awareness that vote reasoning is a valid scumhunting tactic in your mind.

And your reasoning on me is a laugh.

My reason for scumreading EP is as already presented - lurk.
I'll add wagon analysis.

That makes it vastly stronger than your case on ,e.

923 did not cast doubt - it stated my personal value call. I never encouraged anyone else to revote or to hold their vote.

[Thor665]

And I did explain my vote when Moneybags asked me about it.

yes, your reason was you were "sheeping town who isn't arguing something that i think is unlikely".
then you have 5 posts until end of day when you never push Hewho. This seem sweird from someone who had pushed someone hard all game.

That ignores this post also.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p9898727

Your case on me is also still apparently that I'm an utter idiot with no good plans.

[Thor665]

I think the best place to start looking is at the 4 remaining who did not vote for HWS. While it's certainly possible that scum bussed HWS, I think it's unlikely that both scum voted there.

Do you think it's more likely that both scum voted him or both scum didn't?
Because it's super safe to expect one in each location, so...

Also, still hate Beef wagon.

I would normally say both off the wagon, but with only 4 unknowns off the wagon, it seems unlikely.

Obviously scum had a lot of alternate options - but what makes you think it slightly likely that zero scum bussed?

[Thor665]

Obviously scum had a lot of alternate options - but what makes you think it slightly likely that zero scum bussed?

Shrug. Anything's possible.

Sure, anything's possible.
What made you consider that one though?

[Thor665]

Obviously scum had a lot of alternate options - but what makes you think it slightly likely that zero scum bussed?

Shrug. Anything's possible.

Sure, anything's possible.
What made you consider that one though?

??
I don't know what you're talking about.

You can always click in the quote links to backtrack a conversation.
I'm talking about why you would normally expect zero scum on that wagon.

[Thor665]

Transcend doesn't get his

second

shot. Which changes everything. That's why the Vig was made two-shot in this setup, and why vigs are numbered evenly in general. Eventually we could end up in MyLo, where optimal play is to no-lynch. Killing Transcend essentially means town lost a town-controlled kill.

We get to lylo either way...

[Thor665]

I didn't force you to pick - you openly stated that you expected more often than not both scum would be off the wagon - which is opposite everything I've ever learned to expect so I was curious to understand the thinking.

[Thor665]

that post you quote didnt give a case on Hewhosims so...more irrelevant stuff from you.

It's exactly a case.

i've never said you are na idiot, my case on you is that you tunnelled on town day 1., and never pushed Hewho, and have never done any scum hunting - i don't count tunnelling flubber as hunting, it was vote parking. How could somoene who tunneled Flub so hard just then "sheep" and never push Hewho? That's not your style at all.

If it's not my style (and...what awareness are you claiming of my style?) then what makes you think I changed how I play scum in order to play this weird new way here?

and then you kick of Day 2 with a lurker vote?!!! After we have had a scum flip, and 2 nk's, and whole load of other possibilities?
Youre not trying to find scum.

You're saying it's impossible for a lurker to be scum?
Because that's the only way this is an issue.

come on man, you gotta have a reason. Thor hasn't given a cas me, he just OMGused me.

I gave a case on you - it's that your case on me is so blind and bad as to require you to be scum.
It's actually very slightly like your case on me - except the it doesn't require you to be intentionally playing bad as scum for the case to work as a scum case.

You certainly

asked

me to pick.

I did.
Though in what I'm quoting you'd already established that you thought it was most likely for zero to one bussers max.
And I felt that two bussers was more likely than zero bussers and was curious to see if I understood you correctly.
Once you clarified I then got curious and asked more.

Is this going somewhere?

Transcend living last night would have been nothing but good for town.

If you believe Vig kills are superior or equal to lynches, sure.

I admit it seems strange to see Thor bus HWS over Tex, but I'm still attributing that to being a victim of circumstance.

Careful Flub, you're skating dangerously close to The Iceberg of Obviousness

Look at my interaction with Moz and ask yourself what's going on there.
Look at what he's claiming as my scum play.

[Thor665]

I actually consider Vigs anti-town on the whole, so I'm not sure you're going to find an overly excited convert here.

[Thor665]

I mean, just to clarify, he killed an active poster who most people had as a town read who was indeed town.
Describe how that's different from a scum kill.
I'll wait.

[Thor665]

@Flub - you know I did just ask you something, if you'd like to scumhunt a bit yourself.

[Thor665]

Is this going somewhere?

I'm not going anywhere with it. You were the one asking.

That's not true - my question was about your thought process that ended in you going :shrug:
Your questioning is about how I asked you about it - which is what I was answering for the second time.

[Thor665]

So now you're offering a really mediocre complaint of me talking theory when, basically it just happened this phase, for about three posts while I was also actively mauling your case on me and explaining why you're scum.
You duck all of that to make this complaint.
And post some videos.

Meh.

[Thor665]

I see you making a lot of noise about the timing of my case, but, yeah, since my case is based around how terrible your case on me is it didn't exist till you pushed me.
Maybe that makes it OMGUS - but that doesn't actually qualify as showing my case as bad nor scummy.
Feel free to explain that.

Also, yes, I did present a case on HWS. You can keep squealing that I didn't. But it's factually there, I've linked it, and you've even quoted part of it and complained that it was too small. So, I don't believe you and it makes me sad if anyone does.

@Beef - literally moz is not dealing straight, and I think it's obvious. However you are apparently reading my rebuttals and his and finding him to be full of facts and me to be full of lies.
Why?
Please explain it, I'd be curious to see the thought process.
I promise not to even debate it - and just leave it alone for others to assess, but I want to see you unpack it.

[Thor665]

@Klick - two questions about your reads.

1. You don't discuss EP as a clear here, but you also assuredly don't have him in your theory scum pool. So what clears him as assured not scum?

2. I get that you think scum sat on Flub, which makes me or Tex scum to your mind, but then you have us in your theory scum team as an either/or connection - why would it be impossible for both of us to be scum together exactly?

As a very minor third point - your reads also require moz and I to be scum theatre if I'm scum and we're amongst your strongest reads.
Why in the world would you think scum would pull the gambit we are in trying to make a 1 v 1 situation today? That doesn't seem like good play (or maybe you're going with the moz theory that I don't understand how to play to my wincon as scum at all )

[Thor665]

1 I can agree his activity is non-alignment indicative. I'm just not sure where the 'banking on dying' becomes face value town true. If he was scum he could have been banking on dying from Transcend's shot just as much as if he were town, yeah? So, even if true - how is it alignment indicative?

2. I got it from 'at least one of tex Thor' bit. My presumption being you wouldn't have thought two scum would try the same sit on a wagon strategy. Also seems a really thin connection considering our actions around that wagon to me.

3. Well, duh, moz is tunneling me. But you say my arguments aren't clear? Seriously? Can you describe moz's case on me and explain how you see that as a town thought process? (which is my entire case - that it can't and is full of straight lies, which I have made quite clearly).
Pay close attention to his description of my scum plan.
And feel free to compare/contrast what each of us are claiming the other one is lying about.

Frankly I'm embarrassed I can't get anyone to do this yet.

Because his case is so thin as to be an inverse of itself. It's literally laughable how hard he's going in considering how empty his case is - and I'm the only one saying it while I have Beef claiming he's making good points and you claiming I'm not being clear (like...whut?) and Flubber so blind needing to tunnel me that, even though he is kind of aware moz's case is a laugh, he can't bring himself to unvote.

I'll wait.

[Thor665]

I'll go ahead and say sorry Thor you probably shot the wrong PR for this game.

VOTE: Thor665

The fact that people slowly just keep voting me while the only person actually discussing the "case" against me is moz, and he is objectively spewing a terrible case should scream to anyone with 1/4 of a brain that this is not a good lynch.

I'll go ahead and hit you up with the same thing I'm hitting everyone up with, because I presume eventually *someone* will be able to explain it.
How am I remotely scummy looking exactly?
The moz case is a joke.
I helped lynch scum yesterday.
I did so at a pivotal moment.
I had other options so bussing would have just been dumb.


Literally the nly ding against me is I pushed Flubber (after he advanced a case that he has basically straight up admitted including making up meta on me...which HELLO, that's a good reason for me to scumspect him)
And also it ignores that other people also pressured Flub.

The case on me is dumb, RC, and you are the first one voting me who objectively I'm aware should be better than this.

Walk me through this dreck as you see it.
I legit double dare you.

[Thor665]

think you're kinda missing the point here

Okay, fair, what point am I missing outside of the logic and scumhunting I'm focusing on?

[Thor665]

I mean, just to clarify, he killed an active poster who most people had as a town read who was indeed town.
Describe how that's different from a scum kill.
I'll wait.

hey it's more theory talk form thor! INFO WITHOUT ANALYSIS.
god can we please lynch this.

@RC

And as you explain the actual point, I just want to hit you up with a quick town/scum test. Please answer the following;

1. The above quoted post is objectively a misrep of my play.
True/false (if false, please justify its validity in any way you can)?

2. The case on me by moz (wherein he says I bussed my scumbuddy after hard pushing town because...I was dumb. Is a case you agree makes sense with my scum meta.
True/false (if true please offer one anecdote (no link needed) as a similar example.

I'm just wanting to get you on record for this before my flip.

@Everyone else.
If RC answers True to #1 and #2 *and* I flip town at any point in this game. Please lynch RC.

And she's currently backing this case, so I presume she's at least somewhat going to answer true/true...

[Thor665]

Sorry False to #1 and True to #2 would be the assured lynch.

[Thor665]

Yeah I get it, moz is tunneling on you. But why is his case on you weaker than all the other votes he made day 1. it's the same behaviour.

No, it's actually different, because my issue isn't the tunnel - it's the lack of ability to even explain the concept of the case.
Could you point out the vote he did yesterday that matches this in your mind?

@RC - short answer to your wall - meh, I feel I could wordplay mock you the whole time.
But I really want to focus on one aspect, and one aspect alone;

You claim that what I did *is* within my meta.
I KNOW this is a questionable claim, because I literally don't think bussing is good scum play, and openly advocate not doing it as scum, and haven't really bussed in years.

So...where are you getting the idea that I play with weak ass bussing exactly?

I do look forward to you getting to the 'point' but will note in your wall you already had to cede a couple issues of logic to me.
So this is already feeling shaky as a concept coming from you.

[Thor665]

So...where are you getting the idea that I play with weak ass bussing exactly?

Feel free to also describe it as brilliant bussing, or mediocre bussing, or even just vote parking a scum buddy at end of day in a very soft distance play.
I don't do any of those things either.

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

I guess if you're town I'll at least have this to throw in your face for the rest of eternity if you ever get tewaked by me not respecting your play.
So, sure, whatever.

[Thor665]

So that was serious?
In that case, yeah, when you can do the long version I look forward to it.

[Thor665]

So the short form of the case on me is that you think I'm active lurking?

[Thor665]

Well, you can't debate 'feels' so if the long form of the case is just going to be a lot of quotes with you saying 'feels' I don't need it, so only post it to convince others.

[Thor665]

But the fact you soft admited on some of the logic...maybe reexamine your feels.
Unless you're scum, keep doing what you're doing then.

[Thor665]

I see you making a lot of noise about the timing of my case, but, yeah, since my case is based around how terrible your case on me is it didn't exist till you pushed me.
Maybe that makes it OMGUS - but that doesn't actually qualify as showing my case as bad nor scummy.
Feel free to explain that.

I mad emy cas eon you. You then OMGUsed me -having voted for EP and not made a case on him- and gave as a reason "Moz cas eon em is so bad it must be scum", which iis not a case.

Also, yes, I did present a case on HWS. You can keep squealing that I didn't. But it's factually there, I've linked it, and you've even quoted part of it and complained that it was too small. So, I don't believe you and it makes me sad if anyone does.

your cas eon He who swims was "I'm sheeping", see p1065

@Beef - literally moz is not dealing straight, and I think it's obvious. However you are apparently reading my rebuttals and his and finding him to be full of facts and me to be full of lies.
Why?
Please explain it, I'd be curious to see the thought process.
I promise not to even debate it - and just leave it alone for others to assess, but I want to see you unpack it.

1. Yes, that is exactly a case. Someone doing a bad case is a case. You're actually making me making a case you think i sbad part of your case - so you have to know this is a thing, so what are you smoking exactly?

2. I agree that was part of my presented case on hima nd that you're ignoring other parts to try to make it seem like the only part of my case on him.

I also find your idea that I'm not trying to lynch you objectively false. I'm literally in a conversation with RC, Flubber, and Beef trying to get you lynched.

@Beef - you ducked my question. Please go back and answer it or unvote me and admit you're not doing any work.

@Flubber - you also ducked my question to continue the tunnel. I'm going to remind you about this if I get lynched here in post game. So please do a bit of work and at least present a case on me. I can forgive bad casing better than I can forgive blind tomfoolery.

[Thor665]

and still no reads just deflection...

Which player slot do you think I need to offer reads on exactly?
Bet I can answer it by quoting myself.
Want to play?

THAT IS THORS "CASE" ON HEWHO.
I mean...it's not a case, the guy is outright lying.

That is, at worst, a disagreement about what qualifies as a case.
And, again, you're skipping the other half of the explanation of the vote - which is also part of a case.

[Thor665]

just give a reads list, some analysis.
that quote was your enire case on Hewho..
anyway, once again you are being scummy and indulging in semantic sophistry. YOU NEVER PUSHED HEWHO. You can argue the toss over that paragraph all you want, but we all know you didnt lift a finget to get him lynched.
and why did you vote EP at he beginning of the day? You didnt give a reason.

So your complaint is not that I haven't given reads, even though you phrased it as such - but that you'd like to see a read's list?
And you call me a liar?
Psssh.

That quote was not my entire case, because as I've already told you Moneybags asked me to explain my case, and I did. I provided you that link already.
Besides my vote I agree you can argue that I didn't help him get lynched. Of course a vote is kind of a major part of lynching people, especially when I was actually attacked over putting my vote on him and held my ground and justified the value of voting him.
I voted EP for the reasons presented here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 2#p9910012
You already asked me for that info.

[Thor665]

Moz keeps changing goalposts, and ignoring info in thread.
People keep voting me.
Thor shakes his head sadly.

[Thor665]

@ Thor - your response to Moneybags was you were allowed to vote Hewho, even though you had defended Hewho.
Sure you are allowed to change your mind, but still wasnt really a case.

No.
That's a conversation I had with Moneybags about Beefeater.

My reason for scumreading EP is as already presented - lurk.
I'll add wagon analysis.

still waiting for that wagon analysis.
and that whole paragraph STILL AVOIDED GIVING OUT READS.

You never asked for the wagon analysis that I noticed.
My analysis at day start was the only potential scum on the wagon was probably Klick.
Which left one off.
If you take out my town reads I'm baiscally left with EP and Max.
I don't have a good clear take on EP, and I know this will pain you, but since my case on HWS (that you refuse to accept as a case) worked, I figured it was worth another stab.
I also indicated I would be okay with lynching Klick at the same time...I mention that just because you seem to think I'm not offering reads.

[Thor665]

Heck, you're even talking about a conversation I had with someone about one of my reads (and though you're grossly skimming over it and have no real awareness of what was said) you're still quoting me having a conversation about reads while now making a lack of reads (or maybe read wall now, who can tell?) as a major part of your beef with me.

You are just mewling empty noise.

[Thor665]

I still offer you the gamble.
Name the slot and I bet I can answer with a quote.
If you can get one I didn't do within three guesses I'll say you're right, provide a read wall, and apologize for wasting town's time.

If you can't - you apologize for making a case on me based on lies while not even reading my posts and calling me a liar. (and hopefully town will then smarten up and vote you)

Deal?

[Thor665]

Hey Thor can you do me a massive favour and cite me a time where you asked for a confirmed town to be lynched if you flipped town or anything equally posturey because that seems... not right

Hey, RC, can you show me a time a confirmed town straight up made up meta on me and I reacted positively to it?
Because you didn't take me up on backing up the gak you opted to say, you're instead questioning my reaction.
I submit, unless you can back up what you said, my reaction is excellent.
Because here's the reality, as I said, I *KNOW* (in intentional, and not overblown capital letters) that the meta you claimed on me is BS.
At that point htere are two options.

You are scum who has faked their way into being "confirmed" and need death.
You are confirmed town who is voting towna nd are lying to yourself/confusing me with someone else/posting drunk and I need to do something so aggressive as to obligate you to back up your gak - and in so doing obligate you to look for evidence, realize there is none, and then maybe revise your read.

I had thought the unvote was you quietly realizing you were being daft.
If you're still serious enough about that meta read to analyze my reaction to it - I again challenge you to do what I asked and provide some form of backing to what you claimed my play would be.

@Beef - I feel like you're suddenly backpedaling from your former stance and trying to build up how much you were skimming.
You said you saw what moz was saying.
An HWS vote "out of the blue" after Flub became mod confirmed, and the other two wagons were you and Tex, both of which I had indicated displeasure with is...like...normal, yeah?
How does moz's case hold water exactly? Why did you like it? How is it a case for me to be scum?

And if you're really just skimming...what the hell? If you're town you know I was opposing your lynch for ages, you're saying my scum plan is to protect town you and bus my buddy out of the blue when there was no pressure on him? The only way that remotely works is if I'm scared of pushing a lynch on town as scum (something that, since we know for a fact Flubber is town, we also know for a fact is not an issue I would have if I'm scum, so...)

[Thor665]

@RC - I am so far away from wanting to do meta research for you, to show that Ireact badly to bad meta cases on me. Because the idea that I would *not* react badly to bad meta on me is such an odd idea to even take the stance that I need to defend it. You might as well tell me I need to present meta that I lynch people after a cop claims a guilty on them.
Your "reaction test" if that's what we're now calling it, is silly. Have it make sense as an idea to me and I'll do work - otherwise you do the work.

The texcat push is still 'meh' to me.
What about the hammer says scum to you?

Moz or Klick are better options on the wagon for my money.
If you want off I'd say Errant.

[Thor665]

I would agree he was bussed by a partner.

[Thor665]

But if your theory is 'strongly bussed' why are we talking about texcat?

[Thor665]

Errant I think is scum and I'm currently thinking one of Athena or Thor is the buddy.

Why do you think that?

[Thor665]

I'm still conflicted on Beef but still also think he looks generally town.
Let's go with Moz from your pair and see if pressure makes him stop empty spewing and talking.
If not we can always lynch him for laughs.

[Thor665]

well you have to unvote him first

If it's your rightful place how come I am already there?

Also I'm not voting Moz for pressure, he's just out.

Six of one half a dozen of another.

i've went into detail before on Errant and he didn't impress me on his return to the thread. I'm comfortable with my vote there and i think Errant & HWS as buddies makes plausible sense.

I think Klick has been very much town-posting to the point i'm confused why some people are scum-reading him.

i'm really thinking beefster is just awkward-town, particularly considering the end of Day 1 there. I reaally don't think we had competing scum-wagons with how messy day 1 was, and if we did i would of expected cross-bussing.
But Beefster refused the HWS wagon and defended him as town while HWS was very hesitant to jump on Beef preferring to fish for a texcat wagon.
It's a bit shallow but i just don't see them as buddies, i don't think it meshes with how the day ended.

I'm actually gonna put a pin on Moz, because he was more all over the place on day 1 than i remembered. He also didn't push HWS as hard as i though he did...he voted HWS early, called him town for most of Day 1...and then called him scum around the end of Day 1. Noticably Moz stated his preferred lynch was HWS but in actuality voted texcat first. I'm gonna have a rethink here because it's actually very plausible scumbuddy-distancing.

Texcat is inherently difficult to read i think, she very selectively chooses what to comment on and it just pings me at times. My biggest problem wih texcat is that i feel it would be very easy for Tex!scum to hide behind that playstyle. I wouldn't exactly call her town i suppose but i don't feel comfortable with a Texcat lynch today. I feel i would be lynching her for playstyle reasons more than alignment reasons. I don't have a paricluar alignment-based case against her i suppose.

-

breaking this up, part 2 in a bit

@Max - your reads really do change at the drop of a hat. Is this normal for you? Do you have any reads that you would actually call solid?

@Cult - could you describe your town read on moz and/or address my raised issues with moz? Because I'm not seeing him as town at all and am curious what you're seeing.

[Thor665]

Mozamis can't post the way that he has this game as scum. If you're familiar with Creature, it's kind of like that.

Example?
Because this sounds pretty cut and dry if true.

[Thor665]

I mean. I do fundamentally agree with NSG's assertion that this is unlike Mozamis's scumgame as far as he has played it

but I find it more likely that this is by far his best scumgame than that he is town.

So this is unlike his scum game in your opinion.
Is it like his town games?
Or is it a total outlier?

Ok, I haven't caught up but i've had a few "away from the game" thoughts and i wanted to post them before i got lost in the woods again...
Maybe - i do emphahsise the word MAYBE - Thor is town. He could be the sort of emotional player that OMGUS' heavily. Maybe he just OMGUSed Flub Day 1, and is doing the same to me now.
And mayeb I got caught up in the fact that FLub was IC. clearly, Thor could have just got it wrong as town.
So. Put Thor on the back burner for now.

occam's razor lynch EP and TEx

Obvious often IS right in Mafia, and they are the 2 that have done fuck all consistently all game. If they are town they should have replaced out by now.

VOTE: ep

i'll catch up in a bit, but its gonna take somehtng special to change my mind

Weren't you calling EP lynchbait?
Why hop on that option even if you now think maybe I'm only a soft scumlean/null/soft town?
Wouldn't your read on him stay the same - lynchbait?

[Thor665]

Y'all must expect people to be bussing all the time. I'm not used to that. Perhaps I'm just out of touch. After reading RCs wall on Moz though, I went to look to look at the last time Moz was scum and found Mini 1961 where he hardly bussed at all. His scum game there does not look much like his game here to me.

I agree that he has no scum games that look like this but I would also assert that he has no town games that look like this, not in the manner that I'm thinking of.

Can you unpack 'manner' here?

[Thor665]

@Beefster - why the sudden reverse on the Thor/Moz situation? You have been having a habit of late of just kind of going with the flow, and it's not as endearing as your earlier play.

[Thor665]

Weren't you calling EP lynchbait?
Why hop on that option even if you now think maybe I'm only a soft scumlean/null/soft town?
Wouldn't your read on him stay the same - lynchbait?

@Moz

[Thor665]

Also, curls y toes to have me go from a liar in your eyes to 'probably town' as soon as wagon momentum shifts.

[Thor665]

@Moz - I agree your play makes no sense.
But it does make more sense to me as scum than as town.
It's actually the reason I'm asking you about the reverses and all I'm geeting as explanation is "OMG why u suspect me!!!" which isn't helping much.

[Thor665]

it does make sense you just dont understand it. what dont you understand?

I've raised the issues that concern me - flipping off me to suddenly apparently *grit teeth* town read me followed by voting a supposed lynchbait.
A few days ago I was a straight up liar and EP was lynchbait.
Even if, for whatever random reason (and you have basically described it as 'Thor is emotional' which doesn't appear to address your 'Thor is a liar' issue) you *did* flip me to town.
Why in the world does me being town change EP to scum?

However, if you're scum, realizing you're caught trying to wrangle the wrong dog, then it makes a lot of sense to flee, and try to get the easy compromise going/distance your buddy before your eventual demise.

So like I said, it makes sense to me with you being scum, but not so much with you being town.

Can you clarify it now?

[Thor665]

@Moz - so in your cool head did you decide I wasn't lying, or are you still convinced I was lying all those times?
Because if that was hyperbole...

[Thor665]

We need more people to gangpile on a lynch and get it to L-1.

I still suggest Moz as a solid option.
Klick is also acceptable.
EP is a fine choice as well.

[Thor665]

Moz it is then, as that's where our reads meet.
Though I'll admit Beef is working hard to look worthy of lynching, I still think there is some HWS interactions that don't sell me on Beef scum very well.

[Thor665]

Thor needs to calm down and he will see this.

I believe I am calm, but you were straight up lying and frothing over a ridiculous case.
That's a scum tell.
That you aren't even coming back and giving me some sort of answer like 'I do think you lied, but I think town lie' or 'I don't think you lie and never did but advanced that claim anyway to lynch you' or...something, assuredly does not sit well with me in whatever world I'm supposed to read you as town in.

[Thor665]

A lie is objective, not subjective.

[Thor665]

And I never presented anything untrue about Flubb. He's even half admitted it himself. He made up meta on me.
The only issue is whether you think that was a valid reason for me to scumread him or not.

You did present untruths on me.
I scumread that.
I scumread that quite a lot.
Especially when paired with empty attacks.

[Thor665]

If you had misremembered I wish that the first time I asked you to back it up you had said 'sorry, I remembered wrong'.
That you didn't for multiple days is why we went down the hole.
I'll apologize if it's pissing you off - but, no, I don't think my method was bad, just the read.

[Thor665]

Like.
Let's just take the "point scoring" out of it, because we all know I'm more "right" than Moz and let's look at the actual Smurfing question I'm really asking.

What I'm asking is - yo, if you're town, why did you lie and say I lied *OR* why do you think lying Thor is town.

He has failed to answer this - correct? (correct)

Why?

And with that above 'why?' how oes that translate to town Moz.
That's why I'm doing this.
Not points.
The points are just an enjoyable side effect.

[Thor665]

I asked you to back it up

I could score points here about you asking in some bullSmurf roundabout manner that was as weak as a 13y old trying to figure out if someone has a crush on them

But I'm not going to

Sure. I even agreed with you about that at the time.
But the second time I asked it didn't.
Nor the third or fourth or so on.

And why are you shutting down Moz?
Me I "get" but what's your beef with Moz?

[Thor665]

you're just omgusing. I thought you were sum. So i thought you were lying. I was wrong about that. Like you were wrong about FLubber.

So you thought I was lying and now realize you were wrong.
Have you taken a breath and double assessed your EP scum read since initially making it?

[Thor665]

1. Your vote would help solve this by being placed.
2. Okay. So what we need are more people to vote - lead the charge for change and vote!

[Thor665]

A lie is objective, not subjective.

yeah but i could see Moz doing it as town.

and that's the important part here

Do you have a link to him doing it as town? That would go a long way towards resolving my scumread for him.
His current play still seems very dodgy around the issue, and it feels like he knows he's caught and is trying to worm out of it bu bluster.

[Thor665]

@EP - go back and read to refresh your hazy memory, as I already explained the "request" for RC votes.
Short answer - I never really did in a meaningful way that mattered.

[Thor665]

Now that you are aware it was a lie - why is your vote not moving?

[Thor665]

Now that you are aware it was a lie - why is your vote not moving?

Because I still think moz is scum.

What did Moz/someone else do to change your mind from the last time you posted and didn't vote him?

[Thor665]

Actually disregard that, you were sitting on him for ages.

[Thor665]

It's assuredly a conversation.

[Thor665]

Have a slightly different conversation.

[Thor665]

Yes.
Unless we have Crouching Counter Hidden Fakeclaim going on.

[Thor665]

Also;

@Flubber - for tomorrow.
Please make scum thankful they have to kill you and be more active, incisive, and forthcoming

[Thor665]

WHY WOULD I, AS SCUM, DECIDE TO OPEN DAY 2 WIT HARD CORE TUNNELLING OF THOR. THE MOST ANGRY, ADVERSARIAL "DEFINTELY GONNA THEN TRY AND GET MOZ LYCNHED WITH ALL HIS NORDIC MIGHT" FOR THE REST OF THE GAME.
Totall crazy idea lol

One would counter - why would you do that as town?
At this stage, even your town story is that you got emotional.
What would prevent you from getting emotional as scum?

I'm also still lost at everyone telling me how emotional I am.
I got emotional for like two days with Sauce.
I haven't got emotional on you yet - and you're also half admitting you made up the idea that I was lying while you were pushing me because you got so emotional. Yet you keep harping about me like I'm some raging storm. I didn't make up anything, and I've repeatedly been asking you fairly straight forward questions about why you did what you did, and your defense is that you got emotional...but you keep complaining about my emotions.

It feels like a load of hogwash to me at this stage.

If you're town - toss out some final reads, I couldn't describe your current reads for $100.

[Thor665]

Actually I mixed up a game.
I didn't even get emotional in this game.

[Thor665]

@RC - maybe.

@Flubber - if it's emotions, it's me being emotional about how you're allowing yourself to succumb to lazy lurk conf. town.

[Thor665]

Stop being so emotional.

I'mma lynch you now, I think you're full of it.

[Thor665]

Actually, I think I've tweaked this enough

UNVOTE: mozamis


@Mozamis
@RC

I want you both to look at this.
It's why I'm currently thinking Klick is town;

I believe Transcend. His and PP's behaviour can also be explained by them being PR.
I feel better about RC, I probably just had a bad first impression.
Max is town.
Mox is town but off his rocker.

VOTE: Beefster

This is a townpost.

@RC:

You mentioned a hard townread on HWS in 570 - do you still have that? If so, why, because I'm really not seeing it
also sorry Trans, I'd said I didn't see who had the HWS townread, apparently it was RC!

Everything about the last like fifteen pages screams Money-town to me I can't let that go just yet


Of all the Beef votes the only one I'm seeing as possible scum in any sense right now is Flub. As much as my gut really wants to call Flub town I don't have anything as evidence to support that, so I'm going to have to concede to a Flub lynch if he's the counter to one of my more justified townreads.

He's going out of his way to drag up a confirmed town to make a town case on HWS at a point HWS is not in lynch danger.
Now, *maybe* this is a roundabout way to protect HWS from a Vig.
But I'm not sure I see it.

You should both offer me some feedback on that, *because*;

HeWhoSwims

(7):

Transcend, Thor665, RadiantCowbells, mozamis, Flubbernugget, Klick,

texcat

texcat

(2):

Moneybags

, Beefster

Errantparabola

(1): Maxous

Beefster

(1): CultOfAthena

Not Voting

(2): Errantparabola,

HeWhoSwims

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

If we think Klick is town, what we get is this (theorizing that Moz is town and not just an aggressive busser here for this argument also, which at least 50% of douchebag twats named moz should agree with.

My issue becomes the following two thoughts;

1. What are the odds that 66% of the scum team is derping around and not voting?
2. Why lynch EP over tex?

VOTE: texcat

I think scum is daft if they didn't manage some sort of bus, and I'm almost willing to buy Moz as not a bus. At that stage I think Klick is clear.
So to my mind Tex/Moz is the lynch pool, and if Tex flips scum Moz is basically confirmed town unless someone can show me meta of him bussing his entire team all the time because he's derpy as scum.

[Thor665]

[b

]mozamis

[/b] (4):

Thor665, Klick

, Beefster,

RadiantCowbells

Errantparabola

(3): Maxous,

mozamis

, CultOfAthena

Klick

(2): Errantparabola,

Flubbernugget

Beefster

(1):

texcat

Not Voting

(0):

None.

mozamis

(4):

Thor665, Klick

, Beefster,

RadiantCowbells

Flubbernugget

Errantparabola

(3): Maxous,

mozamis

, CultOfAthena

Klick

(2): Errantparabola,

Beefster

(1):

texcat

Not Voting

(0):

None.

Here's what the last vote count looks like with this theory in mind.
So, if the douchbag twat moz is town - then Beefster or Klick are scum.
I have issues connecting Klick to scum, so it's probably Beef - which can work out with how weak his sheeping has been of late, and *also* works with a theory Tex/Beef/HWS team as of the end of day 1 VCA.

@RC - talk me through where Moz's partner currently is as you see it.
@Both - you also both need to address me clearing Klick, which is the basis of this theory to begin with.
And with the Flubber move reflected.

[Thor665]

Some discussion of any connections clearing Beef with being scumbuddy to Tex or hw would also be worthwhile.
Douchebag twats may also try to sell me on the idea that somehow tex/Errant/HWS is the scumteam, but it would literally require abysmal scumteam play as far as I can see.

Or maybe it's just Moz is scum, that is a possibility. Requires aggressive bussing if so.

[Thor665]

Tex being scum with HWS could also explain why he was slow to bother to vote there when he was otherwise the lynch and was describing HWS as null.

[Thor665]

@RC - outside of being focused on Moz/Beef as the "right" team pick, do you think my Klick = town case holds water?

[Thor665]

@RC - and while we're at it, go over Moz's interactions with the HeWho wagon and maybe offer me some thoughts as to how he's scum there?
I can easily see scum in his push on me.
But if we just assume derpy as an answer to that push - does any part of the HWS wagon push strike you as a bus?

[Thor665]

ISOed you to find it - basically your theory is that HeWhoSwims volunteered to be bussed to help out Beef's and Moz's town positions?
That feels thin to me considering earlier in the day your bus logic was pointing at Klick and (tongue in cheek?) me also, neither of which particularly look like bussing.

Possible thought;
I often have an issue with assessing scum reads and fall into paranoia because I tend to automatically make the logical fallacy of presuming every other player would be as good at doing assorted scum things as I am, despite people often citing that I am above average in my scum play.

You have mentioned that you are very good at bussing.
By what logic are you elevating Moz to that situation as, if he's scum, he was blatantly apparent scum when he did his empty push on me, which suggests he, if scum, tends to just be hyper overt.
THoughts?

[Thor665]

To parse down my thoughts to a very concise stance to be addressed;

If Moz is scum, then he was being scummy in how he pushed on me.
Does a scum who would do that also coordinate with a buddy to do a day long gentle grow bus to try to hop off to EP the mislynch du jour, hop immediately back when momentum turns, then call me scummy for voting EP only to eventually vote EP.

I mean, the above clearly dictates dodgy logic to begin with - but if that's scummy planning...? It doesn't look like a plan.

[Thor665]

Can you explain where the "confirmed town" part of this comes in? Because what you just described sounds mostly like a scum strategy to me – a pretty good one, in fact.

It comes from a lack of a counterclaim.

So you're saying that if you were scum, and you had a scumbuddy not in danger of a lynch, you would ask other people to defend him to you while you were bussing him?
Because that sounds like a defense move, not a bussing move.
To rephrase - that move makes a lot of sense if the goal was to *not* see HWS flipped for your own towncred.
Klick's votes don't support that reality.

While we're at it, who do you see as the most likely scum on the Moz wagon and the HWS wagon - or do you think either/both wagons are totally town driven (and if so, why?)

[Thor665]

I'm not townreading him for his spaz, if you read my posts I'm actually digging at him a bit because I think he was being ridiculously rude and childish.
I also started a functional Moz is scum quite early this phase because, I fully agree with you, his play has been quite scummy today.

THAT SAID.

I am townreading him about the theory scumteam I see as potentially likely and how I don't think his HWS votes looked like a bus and am attempting to have a conversation with you ABOUT THAT because that's why I think he might be town.
So let's talk about that and stay on topic as opposed to making up a universe where I'm townreading him for different reasons, yeah?

[Thor665]

Heck, maybe just clear Tex for me, because if Tex is assured town then the Moz=scum case also comes into sharper relief for me.
But complaining that scum can spaz out is not a point that sells me, because, yeah, i agree, they can spaz out, and I'll go further and say nothing about his spaz looks townish and it's why I reacted to it like I did when noting that it wasn't townish.

[Thor665]

I really want to snark here, but since you're town I'mma try to be an adult.
Cool, go and take a breathe rand get back to me.
I could still lynch him just for lulz, but since after tonight my ability to talk to anyone about possible teams will drop to basically nothing so might as well entertain possible alternate theories now.

[Thor665]

Just how many bad assumptions did Thor make to get to scum me?

I personally think zero - but maybe you should describe what they are and we could get a more accurate accounting.
Because if what you wrote below is your list, then I think we have a bit of disagreement about what a "bad assumption" entails.

I read 819 half a dozen times and still don't see how it makes Klick town.

I have explicitly described why I think it makes him town - what part of my explanation is losing you, or are you just generally disagreeing? If just generally disagreeing, could you explain a HWS/Klick connection as you see it?

And he has to assume that Moz is town. Really? The person that most people, including Thor, have voted today.

I wasn't aware that 'most people' voting someone automatically made them scum.
It's strange that mislynches ever happen if this is true
Oh, wait, so it *isn't* true.

I don't understand his reasoning about if I flip scum, Moz must be town. Is that some circular reasoning?

That would be because, as I already said, I don't think scum Moz would have bussed his entire team.

And he doesn't even consider what it means when I do flip town.

That would, pretty self-explanatory, probably be theuniverse where I was voting Moz, and also said I could still flip Moz.
Are you even reading the posts you're complaining about?

I can only think that Thor has set up some kind of bad reaction test. Perhaps to see who will follow him on that really bad vote?? It appears that only EP did. Although Klick unvoted Moz and claimed to have another look last night. Ugh. He voted Moz because RC had followed Moz to the nk. And just now he's unvoting. And when can we expect the detailed look from Klick? Never.

Do you think Klick/Moz/HWS makes sense as the scumteam? How?
Because if not I don't quite follow your issue here.

Beefster claimed to not be following the game. Klick obviously is not. And EP appears to only skim from time to time.

I agree that this game has some added difficulty from people not reading it.
The sad reality is you listed 3 names and, due to the way you're reacting to me, I think we probably need to add your name, and as long as we're complaining let's throw in CoA for her hardcore lurk, and Moz for his meltdown since Phase start and recent lurk.

Now that we've established multiple town players are, by definition, playing anti-town - what other insight can you bring to that snarl? You're not actually saying anything there.

[Thor665]

Define what you mean by explicit here?
I have a clearly stated one that I consider to be of middling strength.
So if explicitly stated and described - yes.
If explicitly free of doubt - no.

[Thor665]

But, frankly, anyone claiming they have a read that is free of doubt - then they're either lying or are bad at the game.

[Thor665]

@Max - Why'd you hop onto Moz now as opposed to earlier? What changed?

[Thor665]

There is definitely an interesting amount of interest in being on this wagon.
Wish RC would talk to me like she's talking to other people.
Makes me feel lonely and unloved.
Much like how I imagine tomorrow will be for me.

[Thor665]

Heck, maybe just clear Tex for me, because if Tex is assured town then the Moz=scum case also comes into sharper relief for me.
But complaining that scum can spaz out is not a point that sells me, because, yeah, i agree, they can spaz out, and I'll go further and say nothing about his spaz looks townish and it's why I reacted to it like I did when noting that it wasn't townish.

[Thor665]

I will agree the Max and the EP moves today add to the value of the Moz=scum case.
But, that said, I also think the Tex play today adds to the Tex=scum, and furthermore HWS/Moz/EP still feels kind of wrong to me as a theory team.

[Thor665]

If Moz is scum, then he was being scummy in how he pushed on me.
Does a scum who would do that also coordinate with a buddy to do a day long gentle grow bus to try to hop off to EP the mislynch du jour, hop immediately back when momentum turns, then call me scummy for voting EP only to eventually vote EP.

Here's another question - especially with your stance that Moz is bad scum who, in this game, has gone up a notch.
If he went up a notch it's a very uneven notch where he figured out aggressive bussing and sacrifice plays but not how to parse together a case not built on lies.

[Thor665]

Its not like I suddenly think moz is scum because RC called me bad at the game. No one else is getting lynched as long as RC lives and I’m willing to just end it.

Fair enough, I must have forgot that she controlled everyone's votes but yours and mine.


I'm fine with you suspecting Moz.
Heck, I suspect Moz.
What I'm not fine with is your progression and voting habits - and if you think those look townish then you have another think a'comin'.

[Thor665]

Klick could be town asking RC legitimately trying to firm up his read of HWS. Or it could be scum trying to decide whether to start bussing HWS, particularly the part about how few people are giving HWS townreads.

WHat makes you think the latter is more/equally likely?

Nor does it automatically make them town.

Agreed.
Except I'm not saying it does, whereas you're bringing it up as though it *is* a valid argument for them to be scum.
If it's not a valid town argument, then it is equally not a valid scum argument. A tell is either alignment telling or it is not.
Which are you claiming here?
And if you answer 'not telling' then why bring it up in the first place?
And if you answer 'scumtell' then please explain why you believe that - because it's bollocks.

OK.

OK?
How about - do you agree or disagree with that stance and why?

No. I think Moz is town. I can see a Klick/HWS/X team, or a Beef/HWS/X team.

If you think Moz is town why are you spending time attacking my townread of him as opposed to attacking my scumread of you?
That's scummy as hell.

[Thor665]

Here's another question - especially with your stance that Moz is bad scum who, in this game, has gone up a notch.
If he went up a notch it's a very uneven notch where he figured out aggressive bussing and sacrifice plays but not how to parse together a case not built on lies.

I don't think it's difficult to overly aggressively bus scumbuddies and I see several holes that read as scum to me in both those reads. Sacrifice plays aren't complicated either.
I think making a decent case on town is harder than just going caution to the wind and throwing the book at everyone everywhere.

Sacrifice plays *are* complicated insomuch as they require someone to want to sacrifice and for the scum team to assess value from it (though I agree there can be bad sacrifice plays).
I just think that if that's a bus, it was not a planned sacrifice play - which appears to be your stance. I think it was just a bus or an honest scumread.
As just a bus - it looks iffy.

I'll agree making a decent case can be hard, but the question naturally comes 'does he do it as town or not'.
I'll also note that being generally paranoid and attacking everyone is actually a not too shabby town tell in my experience.

[Thor665]

For the record I think Texcat is my backup scumpartner for Mozamis.

I'm going to stop for a second and do some reading.

Please address what I bolded in my last post at him, because that one is making me want to run the full train on him.
It's frustrating because Moz's whole back and forth with me about lies makes me wnt the full train on him as well.
Maybe I'm just fooling myself and both are scum and it doesn't matter, but the niggle in me is like 'odds are at least one is town derping right now' yeah?

@Max - he was voting HWS before the wagon though (unless I'm totally making things up in my head) does that or does it not effect your read?

[Thor665]

@RC - His transitions are certainly scummy in a fast way. But I think speed from scummy and speed from paranoia are very similar.
Like, the read on me basically boiled out of nothing, went full bore, and then died instantly. I'll agree that feels iffy, as does the EP shift.

The HWS shift on Day 1 felt a lot more organic - really most of his shifts Day 1 felt organic.
So I'd say I see scum transitions Day 2, but town Day 1.
Do you see something different?

[Thor665]

@RC - I ISO skimmed and really am not seeing the town read n HWS from Moz.
Can you support that call with a link or two?
Seems like a fairly consistent scum read.

[Thor665]

@RC - I ISO skimmed and really am not seeing the town read n HWS from Moz.
Can you support that call with a link or two?
Seems like a fairly consistent scum read.

Sorry
above is
@Maxous

[Thor665]

@Max - so the section you're seeing is him townreading him after RVS for a handful of days before any wagon even forms he starts scumreading him again?

@Tex - that's fair enough, I misrecalled the conversation.
My other responses are still rather valid, want to address them?

If both Klick and Moz are town then you're scum because I really doubt zero scum bussed - I'm not sure what's confusing about that stance. Do you think zero scum bussed? (I will presume not since you're saying Klick is scum) so, same logic.
Make sense now?

[Thor665]

@Thor if tex is scum the partner is almost certainly in {EP, Maxous}

Add klick I guess

I would agree with that, possible outside of CoA but I think CoA is still town despite the dramatic play downturn, and I still tend to think Klick is town also.
EP's quick flippity flop makes me feel that he's potentially suspect just in general, as he is experienced enough to not just be a nervous sheep methinks.
Still not liking how Moz has gone total silent running even with the wagon pressure removed.

I think smart play is Tex or Moz with an outside of EP. We won't get much info off the kill, but...meh, at least we can choose who we flip.
I kinda don't want to toy with EP just because the bodies on the wagon feel so certain, and *maybe* everyone bussed anyway.
But at least one had to have methinks - HWS was going down in smoke and SOMEBODY had to want some cred off of that cluster panic.

My brain is saying let's flip Moz, my gut is niggling for Tex.
I'm currently favoring the brain at this stage as I rarely trust the gut.
What are you thinking?

I think scum worry more about others' reads than town does. They particularly are concerned about reads of scummates, like HWS.

I don't recall him ever asking for anyone else's reads on the slot.
Also, frankly, I don't think RC followed up on it, and I don't think Klick pursued - how does that effect your read (please double check and update me if I'm wrong).

I was just trying to point out that your assumption of town!moz to get to scum!me was not an assumption that a lot of people agreed with.

I'll agree with that.
It's meaningless to the issue of your scumminess/townishness and feels like empty smokescreen.
But I'll agree with it.

@Klick - maybe I'm reading the thread very wrong, but what are you doing with that CoA vote?
Case? Yeah, sure, supply a case, that would be nice to see.
But the wagon ramp up?
My friend, both RC and I have CoA as some flavor of town, as do 2 others methinks, and there's three days or so till deadline. If you wanted to play around with this wagon you should have done so about one or two days ago when I was starting the texcat play (or sooner, as I went pretty late on mine as well)

We're going to lynch Ep, Tex, or Moz today.
All have viable cases and associations against them.
So, unless you literally town read all three, what the hell is with this counterwagon experiment at this stage?
Get your vote back to a viable wagon, present your case, we'll discuss it tomorrow after flips.
Don't make me regret arguing you into a town pile today by adding more distractions to this herd of cats.

[Thor665]

why did you suddenly get super demoralized when I expressed support for the same lynch that you did and stopped voting someone you thought was town?

Because based on the names that are coming up and the big wagons I expect the remaining lynches to be all in that group. I'm not super demoralized (see: the remainder of that post), I'm saying if we only lynch lurkers I think we should prepare for a potential loss here.

That's kind of a silly complaint, because if you look at the people who are not lurkers you have;

RC - confirmed.
Thor
Mozamis - who is a lynch option
Flubber - confirmed
Beefster.

So, basically, we have a lynch option amongst the most active posters. We also have two confirmed town. We also have me (who is probably the most town read after the confirmed) and we have Beefster (who has at least been in lynch discussion, and of late has been a bit lurky himself...so has Flubber for that matter)

I literally don't even really see the 'lurker as a case' thing happening, what I do see is people analyzing wagons and putting a very loose policy of 'these assorted low content sacks are more scummy than the higher content posters) which is objectively a very valid statement to make.

Where's the fire?

[Thor665]

Random factoid - RC+Moz's posting equals more posts than the next 5 most active posters still alive combined.
Also, you, Tex, and Cult have less posts than the mod. And CoA isn't really on the lynch table - so, again, it's not about being lurky.
That said, you shouldn't have less posts than the mod and all of you should participate more.

[Thor665]

I am unaware that I suggested you should make a flood - and if you'd like to claim that your content providing this game is good (which is what I indicated was not good) I don't even get the point of bristling at me. You and I both know you've under performed if you're town. If you disagree and are curious I'll be happy to explain how you have.

Also, though, yes, you are participating better now, I still feel like you're sidelining pretty hard.
Like, just take a look at the discussion I'm having with RC - that is alegit, valid, and (flattering myself) deep discussion about the course of the game and where scum are.

Your contribution thus far during this period I think is the best of this phase, and possibly the game?
You've complained about being scumread and made some objectively iffy claims about so-called lurker lynching we're doing.

Why aren't you leaping in and helping RC and I scumhunt?
I feel like you're being a defensive and reactive emptiness, and I find that scummy and not great.

[Thor665]

It's *exactly* long winded PoE.
And PoE is *exactly* scumhunting. Do you have some PoE to share or analysis of our PoE?

I agree I shut down a proposed alternate wagon - do you have a read on that?

I agree that if you just complain about lack of new developments that no new developments except those started by others will happen.

I agree that you are acting like things are stagnant and your only available choice is to sheep RC/my PoE...I want you to know I find that a scummy thought process to extrovert.
I find most of that post kind of scummy, at the very least it's a lot of claims of external loci of control, which I don't cotton to much.

[Thor665]

If you're comfortable with both Tex and Moz scum - what is it that tips you over the edge to favor Tex scum or to think that Moz is less scummy/more townish?

[Thor665]

Also, klick's vanity wagon is doing Smurf all, as he has done all game.

Again, if you are town reading klick, please talk about why.

Well, if you think Tex is scum then maybe he's town because he immediately gave up on the vanity wagon when I noted it was a vanity wagon and voted Tex again while not going to Moz?
You're complaining about something that's already done.

@Tex - you're complaining that I'm turning a case on a single post and then also complaining that I've shifted from turning a case on a single post.
I mean, even a short answer to your complaint of me dropping 176 could be 'changed my mind' so I don't get your boggle.

Texcat and Moz wagons are basically being all the same people.
Not fond of how Beef and Moz are running silent right now.

@RC - currently starting to legit favor Moz flip over Tex flip. Where are you at?

[Thor665]

has cult been on any relevant wagons all game?

Klick too, methinks.

[Thor665]

mozamis
CultOfAthena
Maxous
Errantparabola

The above is pretty much my current lynch pool.
I personally softly am leaning town on Cult and Moz, so am kind of interested to see the Cult case.
Feels like Max or EP are the smart money bets.

[Thor665]

I'm leaning Max currently.

[Thor665]

I actually think it's Tex/Maxous rn

@Flubber
@CoA

As long as you're both theorizing about RC's reads...

@Flubber - you were absolutely an inferior kill option for scum.
RC was a Tracker.
With one scum alive she's a cop.

[Thor665]

Why aren't you POEing Klick?

[Thor665]

I still need to relook at the rc reads outside of moz

She went through a lot of changes by the end, and regardless of her reads they would have killed her.
I don't really see Moz/HWS/Tex as a high liklihood scumteam (though it would make me feel damnably good about my doubts yesterday if it was true)

I think Max including me in his 'maybe potential' scumreads but outright clearing Beef speaks to an agenda - so I tend to point at that as a good starting point.
CoA, at this stage, is a lurker riding off a decent Day 1, so I'm not really wanting to go to the mat for her, but will admit I haven't seen much to clear nor damn her when skimming over the flipped scum isos.

Really I'd like to look at some VCA again, but am feeling really lazy.
Though I think I maybe already did a theory Tex...

mozamis

(4):

Thor665, Klick

, Beefster,

RadiantCowbells

Errantparabola

(3): Maxous,

mozamis

, CultOfAthena

Klick

(2): Errantparabola,

Flubbernugget

Beefster

(1):

texcat

Not Voting

(0):

None.

mozamis

(4):

Thor665, Klick

, Beefster,

RadiantCowbells

Flubbernugget

Errantparabola

(3): Maxous,

mozamis

, CultOfAthena

Klick

(2): Errantparabola,

Beefster

(1):

texcat

Not Voting

(0):

None.

Here's what the last vote count looks like with this theory in mind.
So, if the douchbag twat moz is town - then Beefster or Klick are scum.
I have issues connecting Klick to scum, so it's probably Beef - which can work out with how weak his sheeping has been of late, and *also* works with a theory Tex/Beef/HWS team as of the end of day 1 VCA.

@RC - talk me through where Moz's partner currently is as you see it.
@Both - you also both need to address me clearing Klick, which is the basis of this theory to begin with.
And with the Flubber move reflected.

Ooooh, I did!

Looking at those, it actually says to me that Beef should be in the consideration.
Probably last scum is in Beef/Max/CoA (presuming I'm right about Klick and Moz)
Outside chance on EP, but I kind of feel like him and Tex didn't work that well in my head.

[Thor665]

Vote Count 1.5

Transcend

(4): CultOfAthena, Klick, mozamis, Maxous

Flubbernugget

(2):

texcat

,

Thor665

Beefster

(1):

RadiantCowbells

mozamis

(1): Beefster

texcat

(1):

Flubbernugget

Not Voting

(4):

Moneybags, Transcend

,

HeWhoSwims

, Errantparabola

Vote Count 1.6

Flubbernugget

(3):

texcat

,

Thor665, Moneybags

Beefster

(3): mozamis, CultOfAthena,

Flubbernugget

Errantparabola

(2):

RadiantCowbells

, Klick

CultOfAthena

(1): Beefster

texcat

(1):

Transcend

Not Voting

(3): Errantparabola,

HeWhoSwims

, Maxous

Actual VC 1.8

texcat

(5): Klick,

Moneybags, RadiantCowbells

, mozamis, Beefster

Beefster

(3): CultOfAthena,

Flubbernugget

,

texcat

HeWhoSwims

(2):

Transcend, Thor665

Errantparabola

(1): Maxous

Not Voting

(2): Errantparabola,

HeWhoSwims

Official Vote Count 1.9

HeWhoSwims

(4):

Transcend, Thor665, RadiantCowbells

, mozamis

Beefster

(3): CultOfAthena,

Flubbernugget

,

texcat

texcat

(3): Klick,

Moneybags

, Beefster

Errantparabola

(1): Maxous

Not Voting

(2): Errantparabola,

HeWhoSwims

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

[Thor665]

VC 1.5 kind of makes me want to clear Beef.
He and Tex were also definitely scraping most of that Day phase (which overall looks good, though makes me wonder why he wasn't there when we bagged texscum.

HeWhoSwims

(7):

Transcend, Thor665, RadiantCowbells

, mozamis,

Flubbernugget

, Klick,

texcat

texcat

(2):

Moneybags

, Beefster

Errantparabola

(1): Maxous

Beefster

(1): CultOfAthena

Not Voting

(2): Errantparabola,

HeWhoSwims

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

I'm not sure I buy a scum Klick in that setup, could buy a scum Moz though.
Beef being scum and sitting on tex makes decent sense.

[Thor665]

Tex got off Beef to vote HWS - continued bussing or abandoning a mislynch?
Klick got off Tex to vote HWS - so either that was very aggressive bussing or, like I said, he's probably town.

Beefster is the one missing name from the Day 1 Tex push who didn't come and help the Day 2 tex push.

@Beef - why weren't you on Tex Day 2?

Looking at the Day 1 VCA I tend to say Beef/Moz/Max.

So my overall read remains probably flipping Max is a good idea.

VOTE: Maxous

Might have to pull back my town read from Beef, but I want to hear his answer to my question (and probably four follow up questions) before I offer a clear thought there.

[Thor665]

good vote, can we finally do this?
obv i'll go back to tex if need be.
VOTE: hewhoswims

What is scum-moz's motivation here? The tex wagon is more dominant at this point in time. moz-scum has no motivation for a weak flip from one partner to another.

His motivation would be to have town cred while also weakening the wagon on his more functional partner.

But, yes, I agree, he is playing very aggressive bussing if he's scum.
Basically bussing to the point of hurting his wincon.

WHat's your take on Max and Beef?

[Thor665]

The very easy answer to that is 'whiteknighting is a scum strategy for a reason'.
I don't find you particularly scummy, but that concept as a defensive angle is incredibly thin.