Open 708: Pick Your Poison - Game Over

[Maxous]

Hey all.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

I have a couple of town leans already I think

[Maxous]

because someone would inevitably ask for detailed explanations of page 1 gut reads

[Maxous]

uhh real mountain out of a molehill here guys.

i just felt Athena and Penguin were a bit towny in the first couple of posts. I didn't mention names because i wanted to avoid the Q&A but it happened anyway.

I have more solid town leans on Moneybags and Mozamis by this stage.

VOTE: Beefster

I guess?

His vote on #42 felt a bit weak. Felt a bit more like he wanted an excuse to vote there.

bit of a scum-lean on HWS too.

Uh, I think the argument for the first poster to be scum is weak

Penguin might've just been around when the game started, or had an email notification, or was doing mod stuff...

^
he's not reading

[Maxous]

Looking at in in ISO I look forward to these leans being described.

really.

i thought moneybags in particular has some good early-game posts.
> he's clarifying thoughts on all the situations
> playing devil's advocate to multiple people
> while not pushing any lynch agendas

what more do you want.

-

I don't think scum!Moz dismisses your argument as town-town.

[Maxous]

What did you mean by "I'm not reading" if I may ask...?

PP said something about the back end of the site which he was working on

, that's a viable reason to be online during the start, no? I didn't feel there was any other clarification as to why he was online and as I said I don't think posting early is necessarily AI.

yes it is.
but if we go back to your quote -

Uh, I think the argument for the first poster to be scum is weak

Penguin might've just been around when the game started, or had an email notification,

or was doing mod stuff...

i think you were skimming the argument at best, which caught my eye

bolded for emphasis

[Maxous]

> while not pushing any lynch agendas

Not pushing anything makes him a town lean? Why?

because if he's helping push good discussion along without having a particular lynch agenda than that is objectively pro-town behaviour

uhh real mountain out of a molehill here guys.

i just felt Athena and Penguin were a bit towny in the first couple of posts. I didn't mention names because i wanted to avoid the Q&A but it happened anyway.

I have more solid town leans on Moneybags and Mozamis by this stage.

This post throws me off. It feels as though Maxous is trying to shrug everything off and dissuade the line of discussion as much as he can, posting everything necessary to get the heat off of him, as though checking through a list.

well sure maybe, but why's that particularly scum-motivated?

i'm obviously not encouraging a wagon on myself and I *am* helping with reads

-
caught up.
don't really feel like voting Beefster anymore.

VOTE: Bellaphant

for now
I felt like she could of said a little more in the previous post

[Maxous]

Maxous, what's your opinion on the interactions between Flubber and Thor over the last page?

I like Flubber's posts enough, i don't see a problem with anything he's saying
Thor? idk. A lot of busywork and :effortposting: but still could be scum. I'm sitting on the fence regarding him

Your reads on Penguin and Call.

@Maxous.

Penguin is very meh to me right now.
I'm willing to maybe say that he got bogged down into a long argument and that affected he rest of his reads...though i'm not exactly sure why he thinks i'm scum?
I agree his defence was messier than it probably should of been.
I'm willing to give some time to breathe but i'm certainly not town-reading him anyway

Who's Call?

Edit: wasn't avoiding, i just don't write wall posts

[Maxous]

i liked Athena's post because she go stuck into the scumhunting straight away and i liked Penguin's initial response endorsing the line of enquiry.

call it gut or w/e. Maybe my standard of having a early town-lean is looser than other people's.
and as you can see with my current read on Penguin - it's not binding anyway

[Maxous]

Hey guys, gonna be busy today.
Will be back tomorrow evening.

[Maxous]

back.
gimme a bit to get caught up

[Maxous]

Maxous, why wouldn't you want t engage with Q and A over your early town reads?

is this the question?
Because i thought it would be rather tedious...which it has been.
They were only early town feels and explaining them felt like pulling out teeth.

[Maxous]

I feel like this miscommunication is due to a very polar difference in our play styles. So far I've been making passing comments to generate discussion. You have been interrogating people which gets reactions and also generates discussion. I can see why you would take an issue with me being less confrontational.

It's not a playstyle issue.

You opted to call me out.
You did not opt to call out anyone else.
I'm asking why and you're not answering yet.

@Moneybags - 5th verse, same as the first.

Thor, what changed from 110

Nothing.
What do you think changed?

I like the idea of a Flub v. Tex wagon adventure.
Bella is now an acceptable lynch to me also.
Beefster is wasting time.
Errant is playing right near the very edge of strategic lurking and should knock that crud off.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

uhhhhhhh
this is a poor vote
why exactly is he voting flubber?

[Maxous]

not entirely sure if it's playstyle or alignment but texcat is a little quiet.
she's only talking about a select few people.

[Maxous]

i kind of want to vote penguin because of his messy early-game defence and weird vote on me but i did say i would give him a chance to get back into the game and judge from there

i'm still very meh on Bella, so i'm alright leaving the vote here. her last few posts won't particularly scummy but i didn't see anything towny from them either

I don't approve of a Flubber wagon

[Maxous]

uhhhhhhh
this is a poor vote

why exactly is he voting flubber?

Why is it a poor vote?

Also, if you dislike my vote, why are you totally fine with Beefster's 210?

the highlighted quote answers the question.
i don't see a concise, clarified reason for the vote. It's jumbled up into wall posts that people have to struggle to figure out.

Scum Lean:
Flubber - general sentiment, gut. I'm not really sure how to describe what it is that pings my scumdar with him. Maybe just that he comes off as manipulative, trying to run the show and gather towncred. *shrug*

i don't see a reason i would have a problem with Beefster's vote.

[Maxous]

hmm finished.
Still saying no to a flubber wagon. Also no to a beefster wagon

for clarity:
my two scumreads are Penguin & Bella.
Two null-scum reads in Thor & Texcat

everyone else is fine

[Maxous]

@money: I did but the point i'm getting at is that Thor might be doing it on purpose.

if your reasoning is hard to dig out from a bunch of wordy wall-posts then it's harder for town to call you out on it yes?

i've used that tactic before myself

[Maxous]

I think Flubber was being brash and a bit clumsy in the early game and changed his approach when he got a bit of flak for it.
I don't think it was particularly scum.

[Maxous]

So I am phone reading this thread and trying to keep up fyi.
Just a bit busy.
Don't think I have a whole lot to say at the moment anyway

[Maxous]

alright I am so f'n behind

[Maxous]

VOTE: Transcend

read the latest 5 pages and i'm fine with this.
Penguin was scummy and Transcend from what i can see is just mud-flinging to see if anything sticks and not backing up anything he's saying.

Not convinced about Bella/RC's tracker claim - as scum do know what roles are in the game - but it's not something we're gonna deal with today.

[Maxous]

I will legit be so disappointed if Moneybags is scum. I like his posts so much.

It's really hard for me to see HeWhoSwims as scum right now too. He comes across as very genuine in a noobish sort of way? Can't think of a better term.
but he doesn't *seem* experienced enough to be faking it, imo. Maybe i'm underestimating him but :shrug:, i really just think he's town

[Maxous]

trying to think of anything more to say but meh.

here's just my gut reads and feelings, fuck it

I think they're town:

HeWhoSwims, Moneybags, Klick, Flubbernugget, CultOfAthena

Haven't had an issue with:

Errantparabola

Players i'm flip-flopping on:

mozamis, Beefster

Tracker claim:

Radiant Cowbells

Under Review:

Thor665, texcat

Probably just scum:

Transcend

[Maxous]

Right
UNVOTE:
Let me think

[Maxous]

Leaning voting Thor here actually, I haven't felt great about him the whole game.

I think Transcend is lying ftr. But we'll know either way 2moro.

[Maxous]

EP writes a lot but doesn't say much?
There's nothing particularly scummy about him but I wouldn't be shocked.

Beefster is someone I change my mind about frequently. I'd lean town atm. He did say it's his first game in ages or whatever so that could explain some of the awkwardness

[Maxous]

Yeah I'm thinking about it with EP.
Particularly if my other scum reads are wrong

[Maxous]

Are you trying to pin me as EP's buddy or something?
Because you're barking up the wrong tree regardless.
I'm not entirely sure what direction I want to go at the moment, especially since the two scumreads I did have just declared PR's. (Which we'll see but w/e)

[Maxous]

I'm town, don't worry about it. Just evaluating that I could of been on the wrong track.

@errant: bit of a hard question to answer. I think there could be more conclusions to your thoughts?
But maybe that's a bit hypocritical to say

[Maxous]

Yeah I'm not voting Beefster

[Maxous]

What's the difference between 'haven't had an issue with' and 'under review'?=

Uhh the difference being these players I think *have* acted scummy and i'm keeping an eye on them.
though that being said, since then i'm coming around more to the possibility of Errant being scum.
You're scum-reading him yeah?

Maxous. What are your arguments for not voting Beefster? What did you think of what Coa said in 622?

well apart from my true reason of 'lol gut', I don't think he would of picked a fight with RC the way he did and immediately retract it as scum.
As scum, you either dodge the fight or commit to it.

I think it came across as consistent with the way he went after Thor in the early game, as Beef got mad about how he was trying to be 'town leader' as well.

Premature VT claim is probably townish too, particularly in this set-up where if you're gonna be lynched you might as fake and draw out the real PR's.
Especially in the situation Beef is in

I don't really think anything of the "copying" argument if you're asking.

[Maxous]

VOTE: Errantparabola

may as well put my vote somewhere

[Maxous]

meh, who's the options.

I think Flubber and Beefster are town, so no interest there.
I don't think there's any point voting Thor and all i have is he just doesn't feel right.
RC and transcend are locked to PR claims.
CoA? No, while she has dropped off recently her early posting was very good, imo.
Moneybags and Klick? No, they would be my strongest town reads.
HeWhoSwims really feels town but even if he's scum i think it would be easier to tell as the game wears on due to lack of experience i'm reading from the slot.

Mozamis and Texcat are maybes atm. I could vote there if it comes to it

[Maxous]

well it's not like he's gonna be hammered

[Maxous]

How the hell is Errant "lynchbait"?

[Maxous]

Well for me it's more like he's the least town.
If I had solid reasons to scumread I would share them.
Idk I think scum is playing well and it's kinda hard to get a nailed on case here.

[Maxous]

Particularly if Thor is scum which I kinda think he is.

[Maxous]

After we get confirmation of Flubber's IC status everyone either needs to confirm they are not a PR or counter-claim.
since we have 3 claims we'll sort all this out today.
we;ll either have 3 confirmed town or a guaranteed scum within the claims

[Maxous]

right good.
we have 1 confirmed PR and 2 other claims

@everyone: in your next post please confirm if you are VT or if you are counterclaiming one of the claimed PR's. Thank you

there's no point hiding this with 3 claims out in the open and this eliminates any future counter-claiming nonsense

i'm confirming VT
Beefster also claimed VT

[Maxous]

VT.
Later today I'll pour over the game in context of the confirmed town and see what I get. In context of flub being IC brings to mind stuff like Tex's out of place omgus claim.

If we get 3 confirmed town I'll pore over some VC's and the like myself.

[Maxous]

it's possible.
regardless if i'm gonna go back and do a big time-consuming analysis, i would like it absolutely confirmed first

[Maxous]

Who hasn't confirmed VT?
Is it just Thor and Errant?

[Maxous]

i'll just assume Thor isn't claiming a PR either. should start getting a move on with 2 days left anyway.

i'll give a read over the thread with the 3 confirmed town in mind and give some thoughts before moz keeps getting angry at me

[Maxous]

Page 2

- Instantly reminded why i got such an early town-read on Moneybags. Argues with Thor about his pushes on myself and Penguin. this looks even better given Penguin's clear. Dunno why scum!Money would defend the two of us from a town!Thor. no point really.

still kinda icky about this response to the argument from Beefster. *Particularly* if Thor town. Could be stirring the pot on a town-town fight.

Page 3

- you know in retrospect i dunno how well his post sits with me. it ends up being a lot of fence-sitting and not really saying anything

Page 5

- My town-read on Beefster might actually be tested here. I think his push on Flubber here is weak.

It's hard to define it to a particular page but Thor is dogging on both Penguin and Flubber early on here. his arguments are still a bit hard to follow.

Page 6

- I like Kilck's interactions with Bella on this page. It's a minor thing but felt rather fluid and genuine.

Page 7

- HWS's #164 here. Again a lot of words, not saying a whole pile. In the context that he's not as much of a newer player as i thought initially, this doesn't look great, idk.
Beefster's #165 Again seems like a weak read.
Klick's #167 either Klick is obv-town or he's pretty f'n good at scum.
texcat #171 I know she has a low content playstyle but she ignores so much of the game in the post and it doesn't sit well with me.

page 8

Beefster gives a mildly disapointing read-list here
errant also gives a read-list/catch-up there's not much to it either.
slight twitch with texcat's OMGUS accusation towards Flubber. actually texcat's push on flubber isn't great at all.

while i don't think Athena's posts are scummy...she's not quite as town feeling as i initially thought

Page 10

Some of these HWS posts are starting to trigger me I hate looking at meta but i feel like i might have to here.
Texcat ignores a lot of the game again and just tunnels on Flub. meh.

Page 11

- I know Errant is struggling to catch-up but not much in this post to sink into at all. surely there were more things to talk about.

mozamis seems to be giving people town-reads based on activity here. not entirely sure how i feel about that.

Hmm. Thor makes a really good point for Beefster being town missed that first time round.

Page 13

- Bad vote on Athena from Errant. Very nitpicky and i feel disingenuous, quoting her out of context.

Page 16

Klick, what's your opinion on 78 and 123 which seem townish to me?

I'm not really seeing anything alignment-indicative about the two posts? You're going to have to explain what you see to me.

pedit quick reply to Klick: I see Max townhunting and I'm liking the reads he's giving in these posts. It wasn't anything real big, just pinged me as town like.

Highlighting this exchange. maybe HWS really is scum.
such a fluff question.

Page 18

is this really playstyle? nothing else caught Texcat's interest?

Page 19

- Interesting post from beefster defending Transcend considering the circumstance. Transcend seemed like a very plausible lynch there. Town brownie points for beefster

Page 20 & 21

- you know errant is probably just scum. backs down from athena and then just...meh?
considering we know RC and transcend are town i'm not liking HWS' #506 here. Feels like stirring the pot between them. particularly considering how passive HWS tends to be on reads.

-

end of page 25

[Maxous]

alright i've done 25 pages. i might do the rest tomorrow, i might not.

Errant and HWS are scum.

Texcat and Athena are fighting it out for the last spot. Maybeish Thor.
g'night

[Maxous]

uhh yeah fine.
i do think HWS is likely to be scum.

[Maxous]

Official Vote Count 1.9

HeWhoSwims

(4): Transcend, Thor665, RadiantCowbells, mozamis

Beefster

(3): CultOfAthena, Flubbernugget, texcat

texcat

(3): Klick, Moneybags, Beefster

Errantparabola

(1): Maxous

Not Voting

(2): Errantparabola,

HeWhoSwims

I mean

TL on Beefy and he's talking which is good.

SL on Tex who's... not talking.

There could easily be one scum between those and if so I'd say it's tex every time, 90% of the time.

no vote on texcat?

[Maxous]

i highly disaprove of a moneybags shot, fyi.

I would rather Errant is shot.
i'll probably be making a case on him tomorrow if not anyway.

[Maxous]

VOTE: Errantparabola

I'm tired, I'll write a case tomorrow

[Maxous]

I think the best place to start looking is at the 4 remaining who did not vote for HWS. While it's certainly possible that scum bussed HWS, I think it's unlikely that both scum voted there.

I didn't like Beefster yesterday and I don't like the way he started today assuming that EP was scum and then looking for EP's partners. Then backing off.

VOTE: Beefster for now, but I'm looking forward to Max's long-promised case on EP, as well as EP's long-promised catch up.

are you gonna ignore practically half the playerlist??

[Maxous]

Oh, one more thing, I haven't read 50% of this game so caveats etc etc but I think RC is scum

surely this is a town slip?

i highly disagree and would go as far as to say i think it is an attempt to fish for town-cred.
He expected to die last night so he was certainly aware of transcend's vig claim.
Why not RC'S?

[Maxous]

FTR, Thor is not getting town-cred for the HWS lynch.
He did not "create the situation", while there wasn't a guarantee HWS would be lynched, it was entirely plausible and his scumbuddies would of surely known that

[Maxous]

whodio you track RC?

transcend

RC that was a terrible track, Transcend was practically confirmed town.

this is on the first page of Day 2

*regarding Errant scumreading RC*

[Maxous]

i think i'm really warming up to the possibility of Athena!scum.
particularly as herself and HWS barely talked about each-other at all yesterday

[Maxous]

a)

Spoiler: Errant #178

Mozamis

: Townread the page 1 entrance. Also townread his string of posts at the top of page 3. That reads like gamesolving to me.

---

Thor

: Push on Maxous seems a bit weird. People are cagey with their reads, it happens all the time. Especially early game—like this push is a stage prop to bolster the impression of a strong entrance. It could just be the “aggressive early game” that he’s talking about? Either way I hope I’ll get a better sense of him pretty quickly, seems like a guy who puts cards on the table. Or at least appears to.

---

Moneybags:

36 and 46 are posts that make me go “yes, good, reasonable, smart. I want to trust this guy” but at the same time, he’s also very on the sidelines, voice of reason, kind of guy. The kind of guy that’s endgame scum. Definitely expect people to start townreading him. (Update: I was right. Bunch of townreads just because the dude seems well put together, that's definitely something to worry about.) Will wait and see where he falls, but 46 “I’m not looking to pin everyone down…” is a small thing to keep in mind for me.

---

texcat

: That line thing looks like a smart way to format posts. In fact, I’m doing it right now. Thanks texcat. I'll give it a test run, see if I like it.

---

PenguinPower

: I agree, the Thor opening case is weak. My first thought was echoing Moneybags-- “Penguin sheeps Thor on Maxous, perhaps he’s trying to direct Thor’s focus off of him?” But maybe not so much.

61 rings true for me. If Thor really does open like this all the time, then I guess there really isn’t much to do about it from his point of view other than move on.

---

Beef

: The Beef's reads on 91 make me wonder about what you think about Penguin's vote on Maxous. I would hesitate to pin down reads on either Penguin or Thor but they definitely do lean slightly in the direction of the beef, although I suspect that it is for different reasons.

---

Klick

: The entrance at 95 is godly. Bella is a solid push, I missed it during my read but can def get behind the reasoning. My thoughts on mozamis are exactly that.

---

Flubber

: I'm running out of steam at this point and reading through Flubber vs. Thor is definitely starting to blur together. I'll probably go back and pick through page 5 at some point. At this point in time my gut is telling me to town lean this dude.

In fact, skimming through the later pages I'm definitely not gonna be able to process all those chunky posts so I'm gonna take a break and come back to it in a couple hours.

Reads as of right now? I have pretty comfortable townreads on Klick and mozamis. No real scumreads as of yet but I def want to scrutinize Moneybags first priority, maybe Bella and Flubber too. Shrug. I'm more comfortable calling Penguin town than Thor. We'll see when I get caught up entirely.

writes a lot of words but not too much content to sink into. This one isn't too bad though

b)

Spoiler: Errant#252

8 hour drive!

Beefster:

142 is pretty standard scumposting in my book. Tosses out a "possible scumread," qualifies it as just nothing later on when pressed to explain now that he can appease with a townread. Obviously not always scum here but I'm saying I think it's a bad post.

I'm actually not opposed to an Athena wagon in theory, but why the vote?

Moneybags:

I feel like scum would be more focused on "how can I subtlety change my mind on this" rather than just an outright 180.

I'm not saying you're wrong statistically but I'm also going to say that scum is capable of being a lot (to the point where an observation like this is useless to me) more unpredictable in this regard than you think. Especially when they don't think about this kind of stuff.

Flubber:

Your sudden focus on texcat doesn't make sense to me. What about her catchup that you reference in 179 is weird? Is it just lack of content?

It's atypical to have this many town reads, yes.

It's bound to happen with this dense of a game, especially when D1 reads/lynches so often boil down to "who isn't doing a lot."

VOTE: Maxous
Definitely the most agreeable leading wagon to me so I'll just join in. Don't rly have a solid read because he's terse but I can see scum playing like him-- throwing out a lot of opinions on certain posts or players for ultimately surface level reasons without presenting any cohesive gameview. No heart in his hunting.

This was worse. There was plenty to talk about at the time and he talked about very little and kinda just sheeped onto my wagon

c)

Hm, I feel like my posts are getting ignored here. I also didn't get really get any responses that I'm satisfied with from my questions. Is it my posting style?

I feel like this question comes from scum a lot under pressure. Responds to a single one-off vote from Beefster with a flurry of posts, questions about why she's being ignored, classic "it's not me, it's my playstyle" line... idk, seems like a disproportionate reaction.

VOTE: CultOfAthena

A weak vote considering we were 13 pages into the game at this point with plently going on.
nitpicky and i feel disingenuous.

d)

I get a sense that he's consciously trying to be the biggest player in the game, I don't know how I feel about that.

You shouldn't get a sense of that.
I'm blatantly doing it.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Then why bring it up at all if it's meaningless to you?

Thor got this one covered

e)

Spoiler: Errant #499 & #501

You're saying that I *don't* overtly appear to be trying to control the conversation and exert my will on the gamestate?

Yeah-- never mind. My original thought was "Thor is pushing every single point loudly even though some of them seem really dumb" but in hindsight that doesn't really seem like an important thing

[PenguinPower] seemed content to treat the game as a debate rather than as a game of mafia, and his response to my pointing that out was an utter misrepresentation.

Could you do me a favor and point me to this?

I split up what I would normally make as one post into multiple to see if it would get people to read what I was saying more. You're interpreting all of the posts there as a reaction to Beefster, but that isn't the case.

That may definitely be true, but my point is that I think that your reaction in general is something I think is a plausibly common reaction from scum in your situation.

By the way, why were you "not opposed to my wagon" in 252, made before the post you quoted?

Before the post, you were one of several players who had posted, but had not stuck out or made an impression in anyway. It is common for me to express desire to wagon these people in the early game.

If I were scum, why would I feel the need to insert myself as a "key player" when most people seemed content to just write me off as town and ignore the rest of my posts?

Good point. I'll look back on it and think. I think I might just
UNVOTE:
now-- my mind's kind of changed as of this post. Will see what happens when I read more.

Where did I discredit Beefster? If by "discredit" you mean "point out how someone is wrong", then first of all those two things are very connotatively different and you'll have to explain why you chose the first phrase over the second, and second – yeah I would be "discrediting" him if that's what you mean.

My thought back then was that you were saying Beefster is superficially reading the post. Which implies that he's just skimming and finding reads to have. Which is, yeah, discrediting.

This post is already meaty so I'm going to continue in the next post

But the Flubbernugget vote is really, really bad. She gave no real indication she had any sort of read on Flubbernugget before the vote.

Note to self to go back and look on this later today. Moneybags is right that your scumreads are easy and wrong that it necessarily makes you scummy.

Actually, you know what?

VOTE: mozamis

COA can wait.

Worst trade deal in the history of trade deals.

Fantastic response. What I had been seeing from you had me worried but I was very much on the fence. I feel your reply was very solid and it's cleared me of any doubts.

I know that I've been consistently suspicious of Moneybags for reasons that are almost entirely gut and probably confbias and I've been annoying about them but this makes me feel very bad.

I doubt there is one scum in Transcend/RC, but that's just a gut thing, I guess we'll see.

Backs down from Athena and doesn't provide much else

[Maxous]

I'll admit that he slipped under my radar, but looking from his ISO at me there's definitely something there – how closely did you look at his ISO and what did you get out of it?

i had a brief look over his ISO. It's hard to get connections out of it as he was purposely being vague and fence sitting about most players.

Also @Maxous, did you come to a conclusion at all there on EP? You quoted all of EP's posts and briefly described them, but you didn't really talk

about

them.

The TL;DR is that when you break the posts down there is not much content there - in a couple of posts of particular he deffo could and should of said more - and i think both of his votes were weak and unconvincing

[Maxous]

I'll admit that he slipped under my radar, but looking from his ISO at me there's definitely something there – how closely did you look at his ISO and what did you get out of it?

i had a brief look over his ISO. It's hard to get connections out of it as he was purposely being vague and fence sitting about most players.

But you made the point that it specifically incriminates me – I'm asking what you saw there that would point to me over anyone else

I made the point that my read on you is dropping and i barely see any interaction between you and HWS. Which is a common scum thing to do, particularly if they're not really experienced.
I don't think you even mentioned HWS in your readlist

- considered that the spat with Transcend came from scum motivation.

again, you read RC's spat with Transcend but didn't see the tracker claim?

[Maxous]

I believe wholeheartedly that EP wouldn't straight-up lie about out-of-game problems.

literally nobody is claiming he is.

Random catch looking through HWS's ISO, however:

oooo I like 622. That's a catch on Beef copying. That's certainly suspicious.

I don't think this reaction is something HWS would give if either COA or Beef were scum (COA being the owner of the post HWS is talking about). HWS casually rides on the back of COA's accusation of Beef. In the event of COA-scum I suspect we wouldn't have seen such direct approval of the post.

it's probably a decent point for Beefster!town.
If HWS and Beef are buddies i think they would of cross-bussed at the end of day anyway

Because his case is so thin as to be an inverse of itself. It's literally laughable how hard he's going in considering how empty his case is - and I'm the only one saying it while I have Beef claiming he's making good points and you claiming I'm not being clear (like...whut?) and Flubber so blind needing to tunnel me that, even though he is kind of aware moz's case is a laugh, he can't bring himself to unvote.

Yeah, ok.
see, here's my issue - mozamis has been doing this the entire game and you're only *now* calling it out.
Yeah I get it, moz is tunneling on you. But why is his case on you weaker than all the other votes he made day 1. it's the same behaviour.

[Maxous]

Sorry I think I'm getting in prod range.
My reads haven't changed much.
Errant I think is scum and I'm currently thinking one of Athena or Thor is the buddy.
I'm coming around to Tex!town

[Maxous]

Errant I think is scum and I'm currently thinking one of Athena or Thor is the buddy.

Why do you think that?

well i made this post on the phone and i'm relooking at some people here so bear with me:

i've went into detail before on Errant and he didn't impress me on his return to the thread. I'm comfortable with my vote there and i think Errant & HWS as buddies makes plausible sense.

I think Klick has been very much town-posting to the point i'm confused why some people are scum-reading him.

i'm really thinking beefster is just awkward-town, particularly considering the end of Day 1 there. I reaally don't think we had competing scum-wagons with how messy day 1 was, and if we did i would of expected cross-bussing.
But Beefster refused the HWS wagon and defended him as town while HWS was very hesitant to jump on Beef preferring to fish for a texcat wagon.
It's a bit shallow but i just don't see them as buddies, i don't think it meshes with how the day ended.

I'm actually gonna put a pin on Moz, because he was more all over the place on day 1 than i remembered. He also didn't push HWS as hard as i though he did...he voted HWS early, called him town for most of Day 1...and then called him scum around the end of Day 1. Noticably Moz stated his preferred lynch was HWS but in actuality voted texcat first. I'm gonna have a rethink here because it's actually very plausible scumbuddy-distancing.

Texcat is inherently difficult to read i think, she very selectively chooses what to comment on and it just pings me at times. My biggest problem wih texcat is that i feel it would be very easy for Tex!scum to hide behind that playstyle. I wouldn't exactly call her town i suppose but i don't feel comfortable with a Texcat lynch today. I feel i would be lynching her for playstyle reasons more than alignment reasons. I don't have a paricluar alignment-based case against her i suppose.

-

breaking this up, part 2 in a bit

[Maxous]

i mean, Beefster in my opinion has negative association tells with the

flipped scum

but if Moz also flips scum i'll seriously consider it

[Maxous]

i'm perfectly fine voting Errant until he gives me a reason to think he's town
i feel like he's getting dismissed as a lurker when the points i brought up against him anyway, don't have anything to with it.

*particularly* myself and Athena asked him about the whole "expecting to be shot" thing and he ignored it, which doesn't really doesn't help and if he's town i feel like that would of been straightforward to clarify. I think he tried to feign a "townslip" and botched it

[Maxous]

I'm not voting mozamis. Unless he has

widly

improved his scumgame as of recent, he's almost certainly town here. I've seen mozamis as scum before, and he simply

cannot

replicate his posting style as town.

hmm
interesting post while we're on the topic

[Maxous]

here's my updated CultofAthena read upon review:

*throws hands in air*

i dunno. it's hard to find a specific reason to townread her or scumread her.
which i would lean is not a good thing but eh.
there's probably a better lynch today, i'll say that much

[Maxous]

I think Klick has been very much town-posting to the point i'm confused why some people are scum-reading him.

This is the problem with klick. They're "town posting" but when you read for motivations the scum oozes out.

remind to look at this tomorrow.
i'm getting burned out as is with all these ISO's.

[Maxous]

huh.
the more i read Thor in ISO the more i'm thinking my scumread on him is wrong.

goddamn, i don't even know.
I'm really just happy voting EP

[Maxous]

Sorry i really mean to disappear so much.

Looking at the wagons - i'm saying no to a beefster and an absolutely no to Klick

Moz is ehh maybe if there's not much else

[Maxous]

really don't mean*

[Maxous]

A lie is objective, not subjective.

yeah but i could see Moz doing it as town.

and that's the important part here

[Maxous]

read EP's posts.

didn't really give me anything.
still happy here

[Maxous]

Do you have a link to him doing it as town? That would go a long way towards resolving my scumread for him.

His current play still seems very dodgy around the issue, and it feels like he knows he's caught and is trying to worm out of it bu bluster

.

i don't. I haven't played with him in ages
again, i just get the feeling Moz would do the bolded as town. he comes across as the type.

Where is your Klick townread coming from?

from general good :townposting:
i'm more confused why people think he's scummy. I don't think i've seen a solid case against him

[Maxous]

and apart form that, nothing much to react to.

look fine, i'm willing to compromise on the Moz vote though.
this game is going nowhere and it's feeling tedious

[Maxous]

i'm not putting him at L-1 for a stupid lolhammer but unless anybody wants to argue against it i'll vote Moz shortly

[Maxous]

Oh damn, was 5 mins too slow.
I've no interest in Texcat lynch.

VOTE: Mozamis

Let's get on with this and see what happens

[Maxous]

Nothing changed Thor, I said earlier I would compromise on Moz to move things along.
I don't particularly scumread him but my ISO re-read undermined my previous townread on him and his behavior around the HWS wagon in particular looks like plausible textbook distancing... i.e. calling your buddy scum but refusing to vote him, then quickly hop onto the counter wagon and *then* vote your buddy once his lynch is inevitable.
I've made my preferred Lynch clear but there's not enough interest so fine

[Maxous]

That's actually what I thought myself before the reread.
In hindsight he voted HWS very early, dropped the read shortly after, called HWS town for most of the day and then regained a HWS scumread near the end of the day once he was looking like a plausible lynch.

[Maxous]

maybe i am just a sucker for effort, but i am quite liking Hewhoswims catch up posts So:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bellaphant

VOTE: Beef
that list...scummy, empty BS.
Bella, Beef, Klick scum team?

Swims and Money town - so much content.
@ Thor - i guess i meant "changed his vote", not "changed his mind". He changed his vte when someoenasked him why he was voting Cult. looked like scum panicing to me.

P.O.E town: Moz, thor, swims,money,flubber,maxous and cult.

Lynch in: Penguin (drops out of town bloc because no scumhunting yet),Bella, Beef, errant,klick,tex
so we got to the coin flip stage!
my scum team is prob. bella, beef and ??? atm

P.O.E town: Moz, thor, swims,money,flubber,maxous and cult.

Lynch in: Penguin (drops out of town bloc because no scumhunting yet),Bella, Beef, errant,klick,tex
so we got to the coin flip stage!
my scum team is prob. bella, beef and ??? atm

Town= Moz, beef, thor, swims, money, flubber, max and cult.
Lynch in: penguin, bella, errant, klick and tex.
more likely to hit scum than not!

VOTE: Bellaphant

Town= Moz, beef, thor, swims, money, flubber, max and cult.
Lynch in: penguin, bella, errant, klick and tex.
more likely to hit scum than not!

town = moz,beef,thor,swims,money,flubber,max,cult,radiant
scum in: Transcend, Errant, klck, tex

[Maxous]

Alright we have 2 days left.
I actually have a lot of time early tomorrow so I'll get on this.

Wasn't Texcat a counter-wagon to HWS anyway?
Not sure it's the best lynch even from a gaming point of view unless you have something REALLY solid

[Maxous]

Who Texcat?
I've really cooled off on that.

EP or Moz atm

[Maxous]

My initial thought is that it's Athena as well.
I don't think she has good interactions with *either* scum, and I can't remember a compelling reason to townread her.

It's definitely not Beefster.
Still highly doubt it's Klick.
Based on the end of day 1 I doubt it's Moz, ironically largely based on the argument I was using against him before. I don't think he would of pushed Texcat over HWS.
Thor...probably not. I'll relook over that end of day 2.

So leaves EP and Athena I think but I'm considering I was tunneling on EP.

Anyway there's my initial thoughts here

[Maxous]

Considering how hesitant Texcat was to throw HWS under the bus, why do you think she was gonna aggressively distance from me?
I was fairly close to being an early lynch.

Also, I know people hate reading wall posts but I did talk about HWS and Tex in that catch-up.

I feel like my progression on HWS was reasonable.
I went soft on him early because I thought he was a newbie but got more suspect toward him when I realised he wasn't.

[Maxous]

If I was putting that much attention on "appearances", I would of just bussed the hell out of him.
Much simpler

[Maxous]

not entirely sure if it's playstyle or alignment but texcat is a little quiet.
she's only talking about a select few people.

Just sayin.

[Maxous]

bit of a scum-lean on HWS too.

Uh, I think the argument for the first poster to be scum is weak

Penguin might've just been around when the game started, or had an email notification, or was doing mod stuff...

^
he's not reading

What did you mean by "I'm not reading" if I may ask...?

PP said something about the back end of the site which he was working on

, that's a viable reason to be online during the start, no? I didn't feel there was any other clarification as to why he was online and as I said I don't think posting early is necessarily AI.

yes it is.
but if we go back to your quote -

Uh, I think the argument for the first poster to be scum is weak

Penguin might've just been around when the game started, or had an email notification,

or was doing mod stuff...

i think you were skimming the argument at best, which caught my eye

bolded for emphasis

Also just sayin.

I suppose come to think of it those quotes are a point in favour of Thor!town.
HWS was very likely skimming over a town v town argument like a lot of scum would do early on

[Maxous]

I'm not bragging or anything.
People are claiming I didn't talk about Tex or HWS..when I did.

[Maxous]

here.
reading up

[Maxous]

mozamis
Thor665
Klick
Beefster
CultOfAthena
Errantparabola

so i'm just looking here.

so unlikely Moz or Beefster imo. I think the end of day 1 wagons makes them look really town if nothing else. Beefster is just town in general though.
Klick i think has had great town-posting to the point i would take my hat off to him if he is scum. Both of his votes on the scum looked organic to me.
Thor...I do have issues, but he's just probably not scum. I think he is scum it was a huge risk move to bus Texcat like he did. There wasn't a real need for it.

so yeah, thinking about it again more, i just have 2 choices here or else my reads are way off
EP or Athena.

[Maxous]

just looking over Texcat's ISO here.

first of all - really reinforces beef!town. Why the hell would tex bus beefster so hard and then *not* throw HWS to the wolves. nonsensical. Beef is town.

Pretty sure one of these forefront votes on Tex is scum

Hey tex can you be a doll and vote hws

HWS has been in my null pile. I doubt if he's scum. Although since I'm sure I'm town, I might do it for self preservation. Of your 3 (or 4 if you include Klick) I'd be more inclined to vote CofA. I still think Money is town. And I was suspicious of Klick for a while, but that seems to have dissipated recently.

Have you noticed that CofA was posting a lot before you subbed in, and then it's practically come to a standstill?

not sure what to think here. Handwaves the confirmed town on HWS but brings attention to Athena? would actually suggest they're not buddies.

#1204 kinda reads like a chainsaw of Errant actually

Thor calls out Tex early on Day 2 over the wagon analysis. Would suggest Thor!town because i just don't think it's a good idea to bus your buddy like that so soon after a scum flip. It's not like they're weren't other options.

on the other hand Texcat sure talked a lot about voting Athena but never actually did

#1454 is a complete scum white-knighting of Mozamis. Heavily suggest Moz!town imo

Not much else to read into it other than the Thor argument which is covered

[Maxous]

Official Vote Count 2.8

mozamis

(4): Klick, Beefster, RadiantCowbells, Flubbernugget

Errantparabola

(3): Maxous, mozamis, CultOfAthena

Klick

(1): Errantparabola

Beefster

(1): texcat

texcat

(1): Thor665

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2018-02-08 18:26:35)

I've already been clear I think it's moz beef

RC's gonna hate me if he ends up being right, but I'll go here for now, I think I vastly prefer it.
VOTE: texcat

i think Errant!scum could of so easily jumped onto Moz here but didn't

[Maxous]

so just reading page 67-69 there and man does Athena just blank the Texcat situation so hard.

Yeah, I think i'm comfortable with an Athena lynch here.

[Maxous]

VOTE: CultOfAthena

L-1

[Maxous]

Again, Athena's focus is overly narrow imo.
She focuses on Errant and only focuses on others when directly asked. Same behaviour on Day 2.

I'm okay with this lynch, I think it's the right choice.

[Maxous]

Are we getting cold feet on the Athena lynch?
She did nothing but double down on EP earlier in the day and now she just pretended to engage with Thor about a read on me because the Errant push has lost steam.
She should of been analysing my play at the start of the day like everyone else.

[Maxous]

Because she only doubled on the EP tunnel and didn't even consider anyone else. I don't remember anyone else being so singular. Which at this stage of the game you should be weighing everyone against the dead scum and general reads. That's a blind tunnel at best..but I think it's just scummy.
EP wagon is dying and despite me having only one vote now, it's clear my lynch isn't off the table

[Maxous]

Nope staying on Athena.
If Errant was scum Moz would of been lynched yesterday
He had an easy chance to push that through but decided to bus hid buddy instead?
Nah

[Maxous]

I *have* talked about you and Moz and everyone else in relation to the flipped scum and wagons.
As for the latter half of that, I legit don't know how you came to that interpretation

[Maxous]

Max: CoA is scum because look how easily she swayed off of EP to suspect me suddenly!
Thor: How is that scummy?

I think CoA is scum because
1) Lack of a reason to townread her other than maybe one texcat post
2) Barely interacted with either flipped scum which is common
3) Texcat was soft-scum reading Athena but never actually voted. Which is consistent with how little i think he scum really bussed.
4) I've explained reasons why i think every other player in the game is town.
5) I thought her doubling down on EP at the start of today and not properly considering other options was poor.

But fine, i'll quote it.

[Maxous]

and i've just seen the hammer

still, fuck it though

Spoiler: Athena's Start of day 3 posts

If COA is scum, she hasn't bussed, though this sticks out to me as possible buddying/IIOA:

You're saying that I was buddying my scum buddy?

Does that make sense to you?

---

VOTE: Errantparabola

Seems like RC had it right come the end of the day, and this is where I'd like to begin for today. I'll try to make a more detailed case when I get the chance. Sincerely doubt that town loses this one at this point.

Errant has terrible associatives with texcat and I'm not sure how you all aren't seeing it. I'll go through them.

texcat: That line thing looks like a smart way to format posts. In fact, I’m doing it right now. Thanks texcat. I'll give it a test run, see if I like it.

If you read 178, he gives some kind of read on literally every single other player that he mentions except for texcat, who he simply makes a comment to regarding using lines for formatting. Even further, there were multiple people he didn't mention at all in his readslist, so it's not even as if he was going and commenting on everyone – it seems to me like he felt the need to mention his scumbuddy but didn't have a meaningful comment to make.

That is the only mention of tex for day one.

Flubber:

Your sudden focus on texcat doesn't make sense to me. What about her catchup that you reference in 179 is weird? Is it just lack of content?

Defends tex where HWS was doing the same thing, possibly coordinated in daychat:

1261 is large to the point where I don't want to quote it but it's basically the classic oblique angle that scum take when talking about a scummy partner, the "willing to vote there but I have other avenues I'd rather pursue", same thing in 1492.

---

RC's gonna hate me if he ends up being right, but I'll go here for now, I think I vastly prefer it.
VOTE: texcat

His vote on tex in 1627 comes at a time when it looked almost certain that moz was going to get lynched and despite EP expressing willingness to vote moz beforehand – that's a play for looking good on VCA and doesn't come from someone who had a real scumread on mozamis.

Around 1700 RC switches off moz and begins considering the possibility of an EP/tex scumteam, and then EP enters the thread with this:

think scum just wins this game. It doesn't seem plausible that all remaining scum is in {Maxous / tex / Klick / moz} just from basic scumteam theory. I'm also really surprised that RC scumreads me, the distance from my scumgame here is extremely easy to identify

And RC notices the exact same thing that I did:

why did you suddenly get super demoralized when I expressed support for the same lynch that you did and stopped voting someone you thought was town?

EP's explanation in 1710 speaks to the

content

of what he was saying, but I don't think he can conceal the emotional reaction contained within 705 initially.

---

It seems like nobody else shares my opinion on this, and I'm not sure why. If it's just for the tex vote yesterday, I think it's very realistic that scum!EP feels like it's necessary to bus tex in the situation that he was in, and the context surrounding his vote makes me think that it's very likely.

Remember when Texcat and Hewho were the big wagons?
Cult was on the Beef "wagon" which was going nowhere.
Then she sat on EP ALL day yesterday. Never moved her vote. And came in today voting EP again. Shes not gamesolving.
She's scum.

The beef wagon was the largest wagon of day one at one point. I voted Klick initially day two before moving to EP, and just because I never moved my vote doesn't mean that I wasn't gamesolving – see my questioning of max, klick, and my trying to convince RC that you're town.

I feel like you're making the same mistake with regards to me that you did in 702.

I'm going to walk through a series of questions with you, CoA. Please answer them to the best of your ability.

1) How confident are you that I am 3rd scum?

Reasonably so, and more than the other potential candidates.

By the way, another thought for those of you who think that I'm the last scum: quite clearly I'm comfortable hard defending people I townread, as I did with mozamis. If I were scum with HWS and texcat, why just let both of them get lynched when I could have defended them the same way and not had it be suspicious or uncharacteristic?

that's a distinct difference from the likes of

Spoiler:

has cult been on any relevant wagons all game?

Klick too, methinks.

mozamis
CultOfAthena
Maxous
Errantparabola

The above is pretty much my current lynch pool.
I personally softly am leaning town on Cult and Moz, so am kind of interested to see the Cult case.
Feels like Max or EP are the smart money bets.

and

Spoiler:

i susopect it is cult. she's agood palyer, and yet she's been l;ike a fartin the wind all game. I cant remember ever PUSHING anyone all game.
And the vote on Ep...how original lol She's vote parking.
However, I'm not completley sure yet.

Look at Beef, Thor, Max - they are all putting reads, a bit unsure, THINKING about the game, different options.
Cult comes in and says "EP."
She's shows no ignorance.

So P.O.E Moz, Thor, Beef, Max, Flubb = town.
scum must be in Cult, Klick, Ep.

Who considered all the other players in the game, knocked them off and THEN tunneled or honed in whatever.

[Maxous]

Alright cool.

I enjoyed this game

thanks for modding Tesxx