Open 710: MKUltra - Foreign Spies Win!

[Beefster]

VOTE: GuyInFreezer for changing vote in RVS.

[Beefster]

Beef, GIF, serious votes?

Not really...

Though if I had to throw out any remotely serious suspicion it would be on you for being self-conscious in your second post (which was Impede)

It doesn't really mean anything at this point.

[Beefster]

Okay guys you got me, I can't handle the pressure anymore, I'm Ice Mafia, you can leash me if you spare my life

I hope this is a joke. In my last multiball, I made it to about page 10 before I gave up.

VOTE: Technical Difficulties

I'm on board with this wagon for now. Mathdino seems self-conscious about the multiball situation and Impede's half just looks self-conscious in general. Let's see where this takes us.

[Beefster]

Okay guys you got me, I can't handle the pressure anymore, I'm Ice Mafia, you can leash me if you spare my life

I hope this is a joke. In my last multiball, I made it to about page 10 before I gave up.

VOTE: Technical Difficulties

I'm on board with this wagon for now. Mathdino seems self-conscious about the multiball situation and Impede's half just looks self-conscious in general. Let's see where this takes us.

Being self-conscious = scummy?

Not necessarily in every case. It needs more context, but I'll say this is good enough for page 3.

[Beefster]

Beef if your vote was "not really" serious why did you take the time to give a reasoning for your RVS vote?

Because that's just what I do. It's intentionally a garbage reason.

[Beefster]

Impede requested to hydra with me after he and I finished a game together where I dom'd the town, correctly townread him, but town lolhammered/mislynched him anyway and I had to gamesolve the LyLo. To me personally, he's obvtown as town. To everyone else, people scumread him for some dumb shit reasons. When we played together in JK9++, half of my progression toward him was derailing the shit reads on him.

That was the Newbie game I was in, right? I was a terrible cop in that game.

[Beefster]

How many alts/hydras are you in, RC/Tael?

[Beefster]

Self Conscious as in trying to make a point out of not being viewed as scummy. Town generally doesn't care.

[Beefster]

I think you

might

be blowing things out of proportion.

That said, I wouldn't say Sesq is off the hook. IGMEOU.

[Beefster]

I dunno. Math's playing differently than I've seen in previous games. He sort of takes charge. But given the nature of the hydra, maybe he gets the botd on playstyle?

I still can't say I like what I've seen from TD thus far.

[Beefster]

You can still read us independently, we're signing our posts. You can still decide whether we contradict each other because we're town disagreeing on reads or because we're scum who messed up.

I think this is a good point. I think a scum hydra would make a strong effort to be unified.

A little bit WIFOM, but eh.

[Beefster]

You make a pretty good case tbh.

VOTE: Beefster

Oh wait. that's me.

UNVOTE:

I've been lazy. That's all I can really say. There is no excuse for my being a passive fence sitter up to this point.

I don't really have any strong opinions right now, so I'm going to fix that and reread.

[Beefster]

I'm not quite sure why, but I was sheeping Tatl and Tael for a while... Upon closer inspection, they look scummier than they did initially.

I'm not sure what to think about Sesq
I was wrong about TD and heavily misread - They're probably town.
Tatl and Tael seem quite self-conscious. It's a hard slot to read, but I'm going to lean scum on them. Tael's opening post that was theory-heavy looks somewhat suspicious and that hydra slip looks like it may have been deliberate attempt to look like careless town. Same could be said about head contradiction.
RedFlavor and Hawk both look reaching in their logic. I suspect they're both scum, possibly even a scumteam. But it's hard to say anything for sure.
Not_Mafia seems passive/lurky, but maybe I'm just not paying enough attention.

VOTE: Hawk

[Beefster]

Gut I guess. I had to pick one and I was slightly more bothered by your post than RedFlavor's. I can't exactly put my finger on what it is. Maybe if I go over your ISO I can figure that out...

[Beefster]

I think I just suck at scumhunting. I played a lot better as a traitor...

UNVOTE:

Gonna have to re-evaluate here. D1 is hard to work with since you have so little to go on.

[Beefster]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

"His posts lack substance."
-- the pot

[Beefster]

My current perception of scumminess (from ISOs, most scummy to most towny):

Iconeum
Not_Mafia
Tatl and Tael

skitter30
Sesq

GIF
RedFlavor
Hawk

Kop
Sky_Paladin

TD
Mumble

I'm not sure I can really explain why atm. It's purely intuitive and it's likely to change as I figure out what my subconscious is trying to tell me.

[Beefster]

And in case you're wondering why I'm not voting Iconeum when it is not at the top of my list, it's a rough bin sort.

[Beefster]

My current perception of scumminess (from ISOs, most scummy to most towny):

Iconeum
Not_Mafia
Tatl and Tael

skitter30
Sesq

GIF
RedFlavor
Hawk

Kop
Sky_Paladin

TD
Mumble

I'm not sure I can really explain why atm. It's purely intuitive and it's likely to change as I figure out what my subconscious is trying to tell me.

Explain me why your previous vote was on Hawk, for reasons you mentioned in 177, yet you switch to NM while pushing Hawk to upper half of your read list?

Basically, what happened was that I reread the thread which led me to be pinged by Hawk, RedFlavor, and T&T (once again, I'm not entirely sure why, other than for T&T) But then when I read Hawk's ISO, he didn't look all that scummy. Thus the unvote. I ISO'd Not_Mafia and realized his posts did actually lack substance.

I'm wandering around with only a few things here and there to go on. It makes sense that I'm going to be jumping around as I figure stuff out.

Look, if you want to lynch me, I get it. I don't play well on D1. But I'm town, I swear.

As for Iconeum, I wish I

could

point out a specific post that makes it scummy. When I was reading over its ISO, it wasn't really any specific post I don't think. I'll try to find something after work though.

Speaking of jumping around, last time I played with town!RC (Tael), he was jumping all over the place with his reads on D1. The fact that T&T are sticking to their TD wagon this early on is troublesome.

VOTE: Tatl and Tael
I should have put my vote here in the first place.

[Beefster]

Spoilers for chats with TD nobody else cares about

Spoiler:

TD
143

To be fair, I’m REALLY busy and totally forgot about your V/LA when I posted that. MB. Idk why you are kidgloving me on that though. Why didn’t you go for the throat and accuse me of being manipulative? That’s what I would’ve done. Idk your meta so I can’t say if you’re normally a BOTD-giver, but I both appreciate it and am mystified by it.

I try to be more of an investigating player than an accusatory one. As the saying goes, when I assume, I make an ass out of u and me, right? I usually find the best way to town/scum sort players is to fight them but that takes a lot of time, so I want to pick those fights carefully as I don't have unlimited time or energy. I'm not emotionally prepared for another head to head with Dino yet X_X

That said I didn't think I was kid-gloving you; I thought I gave a pretty clear explanation of why your slot is troubling me in 137. I only have one vote and I think it's best used against Not Mafia at the moment since the slot is deliberately avoiding engaging with players (and this is the exact behavior that lead to him winning as scum in another game about 24 hours ago). I find it a lot harder to find alignment information from players who passively lurk; so on day 1 I want to burn those to the ground since it's harder late game to figure them out. You're posting a lot so it's easier to go back to this day 1 late game and see interactions between you and other flipped players. ~~~

@Beefster

Your reaction to the vote from TD seems strange.

I was wrong about TD and heavily misread - They're probably town.

This needs qualification. A player voting you should not be an intuitive "Oh that player is town", it should be "You are wrong!!!" because you know you are town...right?

I want to see your justification for this town read, particularly as you have given out some justification for your other reads in that post.

Your vote on Hawk surprises me. If you seriously thought there was a Hawk/Red scumteam, wouldn't you vote for RedFlavor? There's a couple of votes there already. And then uh your list of reads has Hawk in the middle so I'm ???

Your activity in the last few posts looks like a knee-jerk reaction to unexpected pressure. I'd like to see some deeper thoughts about why you ranked certain players where you did/why you're voting where you did/even if it's just you don't like the avatar.

I'll get to this after work. Sorry.

[Beefster]

@Beefster

Your reaction to the vote from TD seems strange.

I was wrong about TD and heavily misread - They're probably town.

This needs qualification. A player voting you should not be an intuitive "Oh that player is town", it should be "You are wrong!!!" because you know you are town...right?

There really isn't any other way to react when he's absolutely on the money about how I have been acting in the game thus far. I concede that I legitimately look scummy. I took it as a call for me to actually put real effort into the game.

I want to see your justification for this town read, particularly as you have given out some justification for your other reads in that post.

Upon further inspection of my perception of their self consciousness, I noticed that it was well within reason how they were acting. Logic followed in a town way that didn't appear deceptive. I'm lynchbait for sure, but town is wrong all the time.

Your vote on Hawk surprises me. If you seriously thought there was a Hawk/Red scumteam, wouldn't you vote for RedFlavor? There's a couple of votes there already. And then uh your list of reads has Hawk in the middle so I'm ???

I could have voted for either one. I think I picked Hawk based on gut feel and I did think about voting RedFlavor. I'm not really sure why I placed my vote where I did tbh.

Your activity in the last few posts looks like a knee-jerk reaction to unexpected pressure. I'd like to see some deeper thoughts about why you ranked certain players where you did/why you're voting where you did/even if it's just you don't like the avatar.

Maybe so. At any rate, I need to put actual attention into the game. Sometimes I forget that decent cases exist this early on in D1.

[Beefster]

TD started the wagon with reasoning behind why. Sesq jumping on with essentially no reasoning doesn't really ping me. Both Red and Iconeum joined in positioning that doesn't really call any attention to them (middle of the wagon) and both had poor reasoning behind their vote. Whereas skitter questioned the reads list in a way that felt genuine,

it feels like Iconeum used it as a reason to hop on, essentially asking him to explain something that he already said he couldn't explain

. Paladin has some solid reasoning behind his vote, so I'm not really concerned there.

Of course, nothing really has changed from my early game opinion of Iconeum, so Iconuem -> Red. Maybe both.

QFT, bolded for emphasis.

My intuition may be wrong on this, but my sense is that asking for reasons against you specifically comes from scum more often than from town. When it's in defense of someone else maybe it's more likely to be town?

[Beefster]

To everyone else: I really don't think Beef is scum. Not mafia is fine ish, also happy with wagoning mumble because he's doing fuck all..I'll message keychain when she's on and we'll discuss the vote.

I think I might be reading in between the lines here, but it seems that you're more okay with a Mumble wagon than a Not_Mafia wagon even though Mumble contributed an actual case on Iconeum? It's fine if you disagree with that case, but your reasoning doesn't line up with Mumble's actual posts before this one.

Care to clarify/elaborate?

[Beefster]

T&T's mumble case is garbage. Mumble is obvtown.

[Beefster]

Sure, I guess I can whip out Mumble's ISO and defend him.

[Beefster]

First 3 posts are just playstyle posts for the lulz. Nothing AI here.

106 is a reasonable case against Iconeum. Nothing out of place here.

191 brings up a good point about how quickly the wagon on me gained momentum.

198 screams town to me. Good points on my wagon.

At worst, you can extrapolate a null read on Mumble. Any scum reads on him are a stretch. I'll admit it's a bit of a stretch to say obvtown based

solely

on this evidence, which is to say my town read is mostly gut.

---

Iconeum seems to like reasons more than most. Scum always needs reasons. Town can often live without.
VOTE: Iconeum

[Beefster]

^ could be faking to look town

Just saying.

[Beefster]

VOTE: Tatl and Tael

Something just seems off about this slot and I don't think it's the hydra.

Not_Mafia gives nothing to work with for analysis, so is an understandable policy lynch, but I think it's too early in the discussion to be policy lynching.

[Beefster]

Hawk would be a fine wagon for the same reason. I wish N_M would explain himself because he might be onto something.

[Beefster]

VOTE: Hawk

What the hell. Why not?

[Beefster]

I forgot why I jumped on the Hawk wagon...

[Beefster]

Is that a policy lynch T and T??

VOTE: Not Mafia I'm not opposed since it seems like everyone has voiced at least a bit of concern with him living too long.

I think it was this post.

[Beefster]

Yes let's PL with two scumsided nightkills

I sarcastically agree with this sarcastic remark. As in I agree with what it's actually saying, not what it is literally saying.

If you want to lynch Not_Mafia because he's scum, that's one thing, but we can't really afford a policy lynch in multiball.

[Beefster]

H-hello!
My name is Mikan Tsumiki. I-I am the ultimate nurse!
My m-master told me to join this game because I had to be punished
Uuuuuu
I-I hate multiball

VOTE: Hawk
I-I'm sorry you're scum, please fry me on a gristle.

Reasoning??

The entire lot of you lurkers sure do like to just throw votes out there and not post a single god damn reason for them. Skitter is literally the only one whos listing why they think I'm scum and not just playing like shit.

NM drops in every now and then to throw a one liner and not get prodded.

Sesq makes no fucking sense ever but I have mislynched her more times than I can count so it's nothing that isn't par for the course.

Beefster and skitter have been have engaging with me

And now I'm being voted solely off *I'm sorry you're scum??*

VOTE: Mikan Get the fuck outta here.

OMGUS?

I'm afraid deflecting and calling attentions to other viable wagons does not count as a legitimate defense. Try again, scum.

[Beefster]

*attention

lol. Why did I pluralize that?

[Beefster]

Hawk's posts just bleed scum, he's one of those people who just can't fake a towny persona believably

This post makes me think Not_Mafia is town. It's not like his posts are unintelligent- this post is a good post. He just doesn't explain his train of thought. Frustrating? Yes. Scummy? Not for him.

[Beefster]

Thank you for your confession.

VOTE: Hawk

YOU'RE FUCKING RETARDED IT'S THE QUOTE NM POSTED WORD FOR WORD EADLIER THAT EVERYONE IGNORED AND DECIDED WAS NAI!!

Always serious remember to announce L-1

pedit:... maybe I'm just to strung up. Guys please forgive me if I'm coming off as an insane o right now.

Angry scum is angry.

I think this is scum anger. Probably.

[Beefster]

But I'm biased, so whatever.

[Beefster]

I-I have a suggestion
I-If you do not like this suggestion please feed me to snakes.

======={}
{}=======

Who told you to chime in you filthy pig

You're having way too much fun with her persona.

Mikan is a fine maid... Or whatever she is. Carry on.

[Beefster]

I'm not sure whether that hammer was ballsy scum or town. Only time will tell, I suppose.

[Beefster]

We probably could have used more time to hear his defense, but we'll see how important that is after the flip.

[Beefster]

Oh. Didn't realize that was a reparked vote.

[Beefster]

I'm not sure whether that hammer was ballsy scum or town. Only time will tell, I suppose.

We probably could have used more time to hear his defense, but we'll see how important that is after the flip.

Oh. Didn't realize that was a reparked vote.

This feels like a fake reaction.

It wasn't. I legitimately was not paying attention to that detail.

[Beefster]

I'm not sure whether that hammer was ballsy scum or town. Only time will tell, I suppose.

We probably could have used more time to hear his defense, but we'll see how important that is after the flip.

Oh. Didn't realize that was a reparked vote.

This feels like a fake reaction.

It wasn't. I legitimately was not paying attention to that detail.

And apparently neither was Sesq

[Beefster]

OMGUS?

I'm afraid deflecting and calling attentions to other viable wagons does not count as a legitimate defense. Try again, scum.

Why is this OMGUS or deflecting to other viable wagons? He's going through the votes on his wagon.

Whoa. Apparently I wasn't reading very closely because none of that was actually deflecting. I can't say I liked the Mikan vote though.

Given 258 and 260, you've became a lot more confident about hawk!scum. Can you walk me through why?

Confirmation bias, probably.

I'll get back to you after I ISO Hawk.

[Beefster]

Yeah. I got nothing as far as progression goes. All I can really say that makes him look scummy is the NM vote and the Mikan vote.

As for that post, I think my train of thought was more along the lines of lampshading his wagon and then singling out one of them for a totally arbitrary reason.

So basically I think Hawk's scum because his votes are based on arbitrary reasons.

T&T's really my only other alternative right now. Everyone else is null to me.

[Beefster]

I voted NM because it seemed like progress on mumble and RedFlavor wasn't going anywhere... No one seemed to agree with the thought Mumbles sudden defense of Beefster was odd. And Redflavor was meeting some kind of invisible resistance. he never hit l-1 to push a claim.

Also if my reasons seem shallow or arbitrary it's because I really don't have a strong sense of scum this game. Mikan could be scum but I didn't think TDs stuff was alignment indicative. I do think that if I'm incorrect about that the case looks a lot better because I basically had that slot as null not as town or as scum so if I'm wrong it's a scumlean.

Mikans recent play hasn't inspired a townlean but it's not super scummy. The scummiest thing I feel was the vote on me felt oppurtunistic but she's also following the last read list of her predecessor so... idk...

Yeah... No. Not buying this explanation.

Voting on someone you don't think is super scummy? Look I know I'm not one to talk here, but do you have

any

scum leads, or is it just this weaksauce Mikan case?

[Beefster]

Still not liking Beefster, and his 364 is kinda weird: he looked through Hawk ISO but didn't find anything except the voting pattern. Yet the vote that pinged Beefster wasn't made until 2 days AFTER Beefster votes Hawk.
So what was your Original vote based on there, Beefster?

Uhhm. I think I voted after Hawk threw a vote on NM. Even if I didn't I was probably sheeping Sesq and going off gut somewhat.

[Beefster]

VOTE: Sesq

for backtracking... ish.

[Beefster]

VOTE: Sesq

for backtracking... ish.

Sir your vote is in the wrong place.
Please fix it and vote RF asap.
Thank you.

Uhmm... So now I'm supposed to sheep you?

[Beefster]

Maybe I'll hammer after RF claims.

I need to evaluate this for myself.

[Beefster]

Yup. Hammer after claim. Unless RF says something that somehow redeems him.

[Beefster]

Which I find unlikely tbh.

But I believe in the botd.

[Beefster]

well might as well VOTE: RF
Overkill is good.

[Beefster]

VOTE: Sesq

for backtracking... ish.

Sir your vote is in the wrong place.
Please fix it and vote RF asap.
Thank you.

I should not have gone along with you.

VOTE: GIF

[Beefster]

I should not have gone along with you.

Oh?

I'm preeeeetty sure I let you decide if you wanted to join the wagon or not.

That would be fantastic.

You can always ISO RF to convince yourself if that's the way you prefer.

Maybe I'll hammer after RF claims.

I need to evaluate this for myself.

Yup. Hammer after claim. Unless RF says something that somehow redeems him.

I get what you're pointing out here, but you

were

a key player in driving yesterday's mislynch.

[Beefster]

You were, rather confidently, pressuring my vote one way or the other. I was put off by it at the time even though I sort of kinda saw scum in RF (at first). You primed my thought processes for a scum read.

I think a better question for the second would be "

Could

you be scum if RF flipped scum?" and the answer would be yes. But would a red RF flip make you scum? Not really. It would have gotten me off your back for a little while. Since this is multiball and it wouldn't have to be a bus, it doesn't really prove anything.

[Beefster]

My only concern is that she was part of the back and forth with Tatl and Tael that resulted in them putting doc in every post which proooooobably gave away that they were the doc.

You have no idea
how much I tried to fix this
by softing doc myself

2 things:

1. I call bullshit on this. I just read through your ISO and I see no softclaiming doc.
2. Softing doc has solid scum motivation. You can use it either to get votes off you or to white knight, as in this situation.

I also saw a few posts in your ISO that really ping me. Case incoming.

[Beefster]

My case against GIF:

In general, his tone comes off as trying too hard to be friendly/joking. He didn't contribute much of anything meaningful until the RF wagon (first round).

His RF tunnel strikes me as odd. 197 was the first he ever mentioned RF in any meaningful capacity and he never provided a single justification for the wagon other than that post.

GIF does quite a bit of white knighting against PLs in 267, 273, and 378

273 in particular reeks of IIOA.

311 and 314 are garbage.

He

really

likes pointing out that this is a multiball game. It seems as if every third post from him makes some reference to that.

I also noticed a softclaimed doc in 399 and 404 just now, so I retract my bullshit call. I still stand by my scum motivation point though.

Jokes about townflip on 440

457 is suspicious.

[Beefster]

FTR, I noticed the doc softclaims independently.

[Beefster]

GIF does quite a bit of white knighting against PLs in 267, 273, and 378

Do you even know what white knighting is?

273 in particular reeks of IIOA.

Do you even know what IIOA is?

He really likes pointing out that this is a multiball game. It seems as if every third post from him makes some reference to that.

And?

Meh. Wrong terminology.

It's easy to stand up to policy lynches and it's an easy way to earn towncred.

Focusing on stats in the context that you brought them up doesn't look all that great.

Last time I was in a multiball as scum, I called attention to the fact that it was multiball and therefore scum would scumhunt. It, among other factors was my demise.

[Beefster]

Oh also

In general, his tone comes off as trying too hard to be friendly/joking.

I'm pretty sure I was anything but friendly this game.

Because you're always serious.

[Beefster]

Oh also

You were, rather confidently, pressuring my vote one way or the other. I was put off by it at the time even though I sort of kinda saw scum in RF (at first). You primed my thought processes for a scum read.

You call it pressuring.
I call it convincing.

Terminology. Lawyering. Technicalities.

[Beefster]

Uhm. No. I'm trying to point out that GIF is doing those things: dismissing my case for terminology and technicalities rather than actually refuting my points. I find that suspicious.

I'm super suspicious of your defending him. Please, tear apart the flaws in my case piece by piece so that I know it's my ideas that are bad.

Why is it that you admire GIF?

I suspect a Sesq/GIF scumteam.

[Beefster]

Honestly, your defense is dismissive. I'll admit I'm not the best at communicating what it is exactly that bothers me about your play so far, but you've sort of taken control of the game in a way I find suspicious.

By all means, go on total war against me. I have nothing to lose. I don't know if I'm right, but we're not going to get anywhere until some other players chime in with their thoughts.

[Beefster]

You literally told me I was voting for the wrong person and I should change it to RF. Sure, you left the choice "entirely" up to me and simply directed me to RF's ISO. I felt pressured and I suspect that affected my biases. If that's not "taking control of the game" I don't know what is.

[Beefster]

I felt pressure because you told me I was voting the wrong person and that it would be best if I switch votes.

Don't take what I say out of context.

[Beefster]

I'm just going to say drop it and let other players be the judge of my ideas.

[Beefster]

I'm saying that I don't like it because it felt compromise-y and like people went along with it because it was just *there* and were just like 'why not?'.

I mean as someone pointed out, RF scumread was literally my

only

major scumread that I even pushed D1.
It is impossible for me to push for RF lynch as a compromise when he was literally my only major scumread that I even bothered pushing D1.

I only said that wagon was "compromise" because it probably was for others. It wasn't for me.
#StillTakingFullResponsibiliy #StillNoRegret #StillJustice

You were on the RF wagon for about half the day. That's not compromise. That's going for the low hanging fruit.

[Beefster]

Guilty as charged. I tend to miss details like that.

UNVOTE:
for now. I'm not really convinced, but I can see this isn't going anywhere and I probably just look like the crazy bum on the street corner looking for spare change.

Perhaps something can be said about the wagon on me, however.

[Beefster]

VOTE: skitter
I can dig this.

[Beefster]

I'm sheeping. Bleh.

[Beefster]

I'm sheeping the guy who voted skitter right before me (I forget who) because skitter had the worst reason to be on my wagon.

[Beefster]

I might have also gotten mixed up on games, but I'm honestly not sure.

[Beefster]

Because I thought you had a good point and that's all that mattered at that moment.

I'll admit I'm being lazy.

[Beefster]

VOTE: Sesq

I don't like her sheeping and admiration of GIF.

I also saw a vote on one of my scum reads, so...

I'm wandering and being lazy. Sue me.

[Beefster]

Bleh.

I'll admit I'm not that great of a player, but I was town.

Good luck.