Open 710: MKUltra - Foreign Spies Win!

[Tatl and Tael]

Hi! Tael here!

Just here to remind you that of my completed games this year I have survived for more than one day in exactly one of them and that's the only one that town won.
If you are the doctor I guarantee you that regardless of wifom from me requesting the doc that at least one scumteam will feel like they have to kill me to win.
Failing to doc us results in us dying and statistically means that y'all lose the game which is not fun for you.
If we are scum, we are hell bent on killing the other scumteam as fast as possible anyway.

Barring that mandatory opener: given that this game is multiball we will be strongly advocating for and systematically lynching anyone who fails to produce reasonable amounts of content.
The optimal play for scum in this game is to not towntell, take a town leader position and risk getting shot, it's to do as little as possible and hope to evade lynches and nightkills.
We want to put an immediate stop to that manner of play and lynch anyone who is doing little enough to never be a logical nightkill. Everyone plays the game and we work together.
This will significantly increase the odds of scum crosskilling and as a result give town a much higher chance of winning the game.

As a result of this being the goal, just generally feeling that the playstyle is bad in multiball and my hydra partner hating it, I will be playing a lot more hands off than usual.
That's not an excuse to scumread me or fail to doc me .

This specifically is being said (the not-doc parts) because of Technical Difficulty's opener: no you do not get to play low key Mathdino.
There's way too much scum motivation in you as a usual impact player deciding to be inactive this game and if you are going to fail to produce content you are D1 lynch 100% of the time.
If you are being useful unless you are lockscum I am most likely going to never consider lynching you till far later in the game, so you get a break from me in that respect!

VOTE: Hawk

Besides for TD, I didn't particularly dislike any of the people who did anything real so I went with an opener which is just meh and mildly pinged me.

[Tatl and Tael]

You expect me to check things and do things for myself? Pls

I would think this isn't super difficult to figure out on your own, sir.

[Tatl and Tael]

(and in case it actually requires being stated: when I say low key I mean I'm not going to be sitting there claiming guilties on other people. That's not an excuse for me to fail to perform.)

[Tatl and Tael]

I wish this was actually fire and ice because I wanted to vote GIF for being confirmed cryoscum.

I was going to give Mathdino hydra a bit of space before wagoning him but if you agree that he's scummy thus far want to start there?

[Tatl and Tael]

Hi hi! This is the other head checking in, since last time time I tried I couldn't post.

Besides for TD, I didn't particularly dislike any of the people who did anything real so I went with an opener which is just meh and mildly pinged me.

Let me guess.
It's the emoji.

To that end, standard reminder that, yes, this is multiball, and yes, scum scumhunt too. That said, town is the only faction actively hunting for both teams, town is the only faction completely uninformed, and town is the only faction that can have most of its members die and still win. So on one hand, fuck multiball scumhunting (thanks Impede for signing me up for this), but it's also possible by tells that are different from singleball.

This feels kinda LAMIST to me tbh.

Like you're throwing out (very) general advice for what you think town ought to be aware of, and the last paragraph kinda feels like it exists to demonstrate that you're scumhunting.

N_M vote/wagon is good, Beefster/Mumble seem town. Sky is weird and that might be due to toning against meta.

Like I feel like the conclusions you've drawn are kinda weird/unsubstantiated for this stage of the game? Like I'm not really sure what you've seen that's AI from either Beef or Mumble. What does 'weird' mean in this context, and what does this context even mean lol?

I really like this observation and in particular I'd like to hear more from TD on why the N_M vote/wagon is good considering the vote was RVS.

Okay guys you got me, I can't handle the pressure anymore, I'm Ice Mafia, you can leash me if you spare my life

This is hilarious because I can definitely see this being true.

[Tatl and Tael]

Impede's always self-conscious, I'm hoping to help him with that. You're right on my self-consciousness, but it's with the hydra sitch, not multiball --

I'm mostly afraid that Impede scums it up and gets our slot lynched

because I haven't been here enough to produce readable content.

now that that's done,,,

(bolding mine)
The bolded is very interesting to me. Impede do you get lynched a lot?

UNVOTE:

N_M being a good wagon should be pretty self-explanatory by now. N_M is ALWAYS a good wagon. If Impede wants to switch off to an outright scumread, that's cool too.

Iconeum and Red are pretty clearly newbtown I think. Red could 180 very quickly if he lurks it out because I remember him being obvtown like this in my/Sky's game.

skitter trying to read deeper into things reads genuine attempted scumhunting. Need to watch more interactions here.

RC is being RC. It's whatever. If he tries to use incorrect mechanics advice against us I'll lynch the shit out of him because I know he's capable of doing that, but I also see that as unlikely.

Beefster either town or purposefully juking me out because of that last scumgame against me.

If I personally were a kingmaker right this second, would decap Not_Mafia all the same. No strong scumreads yet.

Unless anyone wants me, next post will be Impede. Cheers.

- Math

This is Math's town playstyle meta I think. He finds the obvious towns and finds scum by PoE. This seems like it

Eek, trying to townread someone for meta at this stage in the game.

VOTE: techinic

50% mathdino seems like a scum excuse

This feels like reaching. VOTE: RedFlavor.

This feels like reaching. VOTE: Hawk.

Also yeah I was kinda reaching, I did not read everything properly when I voted that

But saying reachy to someone saying reachy to something reachy is really reachy

Eek

this reaction, "I did not read everything properly" sounds too defensive for town. However props to voting someone who's voting the player who voted you, odd move for scum.


@skitter 68: spoilers make it more likely that people will just skip your content whether deliberately or accidentally - like they're pretty hard for me to spot on mobile.


(also ftr since I think Tael said something along these lines - I do not hate multiball I think it's plenty fun)


Hey a ladybug just landed on me!

[Tatl and Tael]

Wolfy pop-in here!

I'm not sure that NM's ice scum claim holds any meaning. I would strongly encourage not treating it as a towntell either, because I really don't think it is.
That said other aspects of NM's play kind of feel town so I'm okay saying he's slightly +rand town.
I have a paranoid feeling that he's actually more likely to do it as scum actually but I do think it's largely NAI.

I still agree that TD both heads have been scummy in several ways. 78 in particular is really gross. I'm thinking that that's going to be a decent bet for D1 lynch.
Would heavily encourage people to look elsewhere for a while though and focus on getting content from people.

I am townreading Sky_Paladin, liked 69, feels like he's trying to solve rather than call people scum.
I would saw Hawk's most recent post makes him significanlty +rand town, I like it quite a bit. I don't understand why people are voting there right now, he's my other townread as of now.
I'm going to be quiet about GIF for now because I want more time to decide how I feel about him.
Vague townread on Iconeum for their reaction to the ice mafia claim as well, maybe? I'm not sure how I feel about this one. May end up 180ing.
Also have a vague townread on Beefster but I can't put much to it right now.
VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY slight +rand on Skitter30. Almost not worth saying but it -exists-.

My other major scumread right now is redflavour. Both 52 and 64 are incredibly underwhelming, especially #64: like what do you expect Math to do as scum? 65 bad too so.

@Mumble I feel like you're trying to replicate the opening that you did in the game where I locktowned you on page 1: am I correct? why are you doing so?

Kop and Sesq have not posted yet.

[Tatl and Tael]

Believe it or not, I actually see this strategy as fairly solid. If we're talking about optimal scumplay though, I'd argue that the most high-level scumplay would be to play so town-leadery that they get doc'd (or scum fears they're doc'd) and have a reasonable excuse for being alive.
Knowing your own history, I suspect that you were willing to join this multiball setup in particular because if you rolled scum, this is one of few setups in which you could actually not die at night. That's NAI, but it weakens the strategy of "might as well let RC do his thing because he's probably dying tonight anyway".

Well, sure. But I know that we rolled town and if we're doing it then no one else can do it as scum without risking a bullet.
We are highly liable to be the first ones dead as soon as the doc goes down unless we get doublekilled that night so

[Tatl and Tael]

(yes we inned to this setup where we wouldn't for most multiball BECAUSE THERE'S A DOCTOR: that's something that applies to both alignments. I don't appreciate being removed from game early.)

[Tatl and Tael]

I have I don't know whether he's serious but he's tone feels so pure newbtown that my interpretation is that he's not sure if he's serious and genuinely trying to clear that up.
I mean I have a read on you GIF I just don't think it would be helpful if I outed it

Uh this was said by Tatl, yup that's what's happened here.

[Tatl and Tael]

If I'm coming across as too LAMIST compared to my usual play, that's because I'm approaching this game differently than others due to multiball.
My prototype for how we played this game is how Titus wanted to approach the Radiant Moonlight Fire&Ice and I'm trying to enact her vision of correct multiball play.
If you have some other reason to scumread us I would appreciate if you'd explain it.

[Tatl and Tael]

If I'm coming across as too LAMIST compared to my usual play, that's because I'm approaching this game differently than others due to multiball.
My prototype for how we played this game is how Titus wanted to approach the Radiant Moonlight Fire&Ice and I'm trying to enact her vision of correct multiball play.
If you have some other reason to scumread us I would appreciate if you'd explain it.

not really aside from feeling

which is totally legitimate yes i am aware

in reality, i don't know what to think or believe right now, so i have to park my vote somewhere, yu're it

sorry

I don't know what to think about the fact that you're apologising for voting us. Your voting post seemed pretty sure, backtracking from it feels off. Also hi again!

hi

skitter is right about everything

except this

VOTE: titi and tael

This is a Wifom pop-in if I've ever seen one....

Sesq why are you voting T&T??

Also

Mod: I'm VLA till Monday taking a weekend with the family so won't be able to check in much

I'm guessing you mean wolfy rather than wifom. Why do you think that?


-Tatl

[Tatl and Tael]

I have I don't know whether he's serious but he's tone feels so pure newbtown that my interpretation is that he's not sure if he's serious and genuinely trying to clear that up.
I mean I have a read on you GIF I just don't think it would be helpful if I outed it

Uh this was said by Tatl, yup that's what's happened here.

hey I've played multiple hydra games and haven't altslipped yet! What is this defamation?

[Tatl and Tael]

I'm not voting for Not Mafia this day phase. I have had a lot of dealings with Not Mafia and he plays the same almost, in either alignment. It gets to a point that he virtually becomes a policy lynch for myself because he's hard to read. So I'm not prepared to jump on that wagon just yet.

But this vote stands out for me.

VOTE: RedFlavour

Any reason for the vote? You talked about the leading wagon but not about the player you're voting.

No clue how to sort GIF, but 105 would be weird coming from scum.

I went and looked at the post but I don't see how it would be weird coming from scum.


-Tatl

[Tatl and Tael]

So I was going to give TD space but at this point there's something I dislike about every single one of their posts and the only person I feel strongly enough about to consider as an alternative is RedFlavor but even them there's stuff I like? Like there's not really any comparable options to me and that's the only situation I'd consider lynching someone I expect to be active, so, like idk, I don't want to not wagon scum right now. Let's get this wagon going seriously and we'll see if TD does anything to make me reevaluate that read.

-Tael

@Mumble I still expect a response to my question.

VOTE: Technical Difficulties

Sesq feels town, Skitter has been bumped up to near locktown, not happy with mumble, Kop is okay.

[Tatl and Tael]

You really feel like you're trying to gamesolve. I've also seen you several times as scum and generally know what to look for and am not seeing it this game.

Mumble literally copy pasted a bunch of posts from a game where he was town and got locktowned by me page 1 and I want an explanation of why he did it because it feels like he's trying to get the same townread.

[Tatl and Tael]

Given that I essentially (correctly) claimed a guilty on you last game before you claimed vig to get out of it I don't think it should surprise you that I'm townreading you?

[Tatl and Tael]

That was like six months ago and I don't think you've played with town!me, but fair enough.

When playing the game with Boonskiies I took the time to read every single game you've played. I feel pretty confident in my ability to ascertain that.
If I couldn't recognize your towngame I wouldn't have had the confidence to push on you like I did in the boon game.

Gonna say red may have been a LHF scumread nad he might be town. Still happy with my scumread on TD.
N_M is never going to be a strong contributor to the game or eat a nightkill so I am vaguely fine with lynching them.

@Iconeum: why do you think that we're scum?

[Tatl and Tael]

-Tael by the way.

[Tatl and Tael]

Ico, your use of "he" makes me wonder if you realise we're two different people in this slot. Also we're different genders.

42 was me. I said I liked skitter's observation because the observation was good - it was a point in favour of skitter's towniness. There were also differences between TD's post and ours, and if you think skitter's observations also apply to Tael's post you should point out where instead of just saying it was "the same only larger". Specifics make it look like you read the posts.
I did think N_M's claim could be genuine and no, I had no interest in following that up because where would it take me?

82 was not me, so your thing about "backing down" is a bit weird. Tael said he doesn't think there's meaning in N_M's post, which is fair considering he could and would make it as either alignment.
For townreading him, I'm thinking along similar lines to GIF's 59. I'd rather focus on other players, since that leans him enough town for me for now.

Why do you not like skitter's 38, and what do you not like about my response?

I kinda disagree with you on RF though, I'm tending town on him overall.

You mentioned this a bit but can you explain more? Also I've got no meta on you and I'm still townreading you.

not weird at all

directed at entire game, clarify:

dont like how people are being scumread for reasoning abt one read and voting another

yeah not sure what you mean
if anything I'd think this was directed at Kop's 129
why would you instead direct it to the whole game


-Tatl

[Tatl and Tael]

We've got the same role PM and we have differed on no significant reads, just our progression on a single fairly trivial point. It's a bit early to be complaining about dissonance here.

You can still read us independently, we're signing our posts. You can still decide whether we contradict each other because we're town disagreeing on reads or because we're scum who messed up.

Not sure why hearing multiple opinions would bother town at all.


Also good job on focusing on that and not on my questions regarding your opinion on skitter's post and my response. Still would like an answer on that.


-Tatl

[Tatl and Tael]

Regarding Skitter, his 38 was in response to TD's 19. I feel that post would have been better suited as a response to your 21. It strikes me that he chose TD's post over yours to respond to.

He only responded with a joke on statistics.

It was probably the content, strangely enough. You're still not being specific

Spoiler: skitter's post

To that end, standard reminder that, yes, this is multiball, and yes, scum scumhunt too. That said, town is the only faction actively hunting for both teams, town is the only faction completely uninformed, and town is the only faction that can have most of its members die and still win. So on one hand, fuck multiball scumhunting (thanks Impede for signing me up for this), but it's also possible by tells that are different from singleball.

This feels kinda LAMIST to me tbh.

Like you're throwing out (very) general advice for what you think town ought to be aware of, and the last paragraph kinda feels like it exists to demonstrate that you're scumhunting.

N_M vote/wagon is good, Beefster/Mumble seem town. Sky is weird and that might be due to toning against meta.

Like I feel like the conclusions you've drawn are kinda weird/unsubstantiated for this stage of the game? Like I'm not really sure what you've seen that's AI from either Beef or Mumble. What does 'weird' mean in this context, and what does this context even mean lol?

------

Failing to doc us results in us dying and statistically means that y'all lose the game which is not fun for you.

I'm pretty sure statistics don't work this way lol

She pointed out several things. Yes, Tael was being LAMIST as heck, because it was important. But the advice given was not general, it was very specific and focused on us. Finally, she pointed out that Techdiff was making "weird/unsubstantiated" claims. I don't see any of these in Tael's opening post.

Basically skitter's observations don't seem to apply to the content of our post at all beyond the LAMIST one so I don't know why you're still saying they are. I agree that it's weird she didn't really engage with Tael's post beyond the joke but it looks like she's been engaging as the game goes on so that doesn't really bother me.

Your slot says they consider NM as scum, but also as not scum but also not as town. Now if NM would be lynched, that gives us exactly 0 indication on where you stand.

? I said I thought he would do it as scum, I didn't say I thought he was scum for it - he would do it as town too. Not sure why you're confused on this. We're pretty firmly not scumreading him.


-Tatl

[Tatl and Tael]

I'm on pseudo VLA so I'm not doing that much.

I told you in my first post I would be playing to a different less solo carry meta than you're used to: that combined with putting this game on the back burner because we have Key to hold the fort means I may not be quite what you're expecting from me but it doesn't make me scum

If this style of play won't work I'll go tryhard mode on Wednesday but I don't feel my usual manner of play is especially suited to multiball: giving scum a free mislynch due to shit paranoia of my slot is worse though.

To everyone else: I really don't think Beef is scum. Not mafia is fine ish, also happy with wagoning mumble because he's doing fuck all..I'll message keychain when she's on and we'll discuss the vote.

And yeah this seems super uncharacteristic for me but again doesn't mean that I'm scum, so.

-Tael

[Tatl and Tael]

Beefster wagon was too fast...not scum, I think.

@Tael

: You didn't really care about your question to me, did you?

I do care: but I don't have time to press you for it right now. I will certainly not be happy when I have time to play the game hard if you don't answer it.
I've mulled it over long enough and Tael feels reasonably confident in GIF scum based off of numerous meta factors but doesn't actually have the time to case it right now.

*shrug*

@Beef in terms of likeliness to flip scum? I think that Mumble is a better bet right now.
I am perfectly fine lynching Not_Mafia in terms of an I don't think he's going to contribute enough to be worth keeping around.

[Tatl and Tael]

I did not see the response: sorry.

I'm kind of distant from this game, like I've said. (this was in fact Tael)

[Tatl and Tael]

My mumble progression in this game is noticing that his opener felt like a copy of a previous game and not remembering any of his posts.
I'm sorry if it's underwhelming that I stuck with that but I have said I'm on pseudo V/LA.
If you want to wagon me for it nothing will change until I get more free time.

[Tatl and Tael]

okay let's just lynch N_M.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Tatl and Tael]

I mean I see why you would think that's scummy but I just don't feel like dealing with him long term?

[Tatl and Tael]

Best answer I can give is that you wouldn't think that there was anything wrong if we were scum.

[Tatl and Tael]

so

GIF
Hawk

vs

TD
Kop

or something

[Tatl and Tael]

Welcome Mikan! You've reminded me of a game I'm supposed to be playing.

because we have Key to hold the fort

sorry Tael.

I still like Mumble for town. Partially for the read on Sesq's wagon jump in 193 and elaboration in 198 - I'd expect scum to jump on that.

Not sure how Beefster wrecked his slot so quick, I was townreading him but now I've got no idea.

I'm ignoring TDs readlist. Because of the replace out.

It won't help read the slot until it flips so I'm going to have to reevaluate after that happens if I'm still alive... not that I was very certain of the slot before anyway.

It bothers me more that they unvoted, asked for a replace out, and are now voting...

(bolding mine)

... I don't follow why them replacing out makes them worth ignoring. Are you sure it's not because they put you as scum?

Hawk from 286 onwards gives me bad feelings of desperation but not sure if scum would go so hard on the "your reads probably aren't any better than rolling a die" argument. I would still be totally fine with a lynch on that slot today.

I-I hate multiball

I-I have a suggestion
I-If you do not like this suggestion please feed me to snakes.

======={}
{}=======

Um at first glance I thought those were snakes now I think they're supposed to be hammers. I'd rather hear your thoughts on the game. Why hammer?

(Oh, just so y'all know, we're still lynching RF today.)

You saying this while riding the Hawk wagon all the way to a claim at L-1 puzzles me.


-Tatl

[Tatl and Tael]

VOTE: redflavour

Doc is on me
-Tael

[Tatl and Tael]

First off you're scum

Second off I've survived the first night of my presence in game one game this year and it's also my only win

Gif is scum trying to bait the doc off me to kill me

If I am dead 1) doc is a moron and 2) speedlynch gif

[Tatl and Tael]

If I die tonight speedlynch anyone who claims doc from here on out because you're not playing a town win condition as doc not targeting me.

[Tatl and Tael]

No you wouldn't gif.

[Tatl and Tael]

Alisae you fucking know better than to question me being docced.


REMINDER THAT ALISAEA SLOT REPLACES TD AND IS SCUM 100% OF THE TIME.

[Tatl and Tael]

Alisa's is literally scumclaiming right now so if I die you know who the next two lynches are, neither of those two would contest doc on me ever as town.

Probably even scum together.

[Tatl and Tael]

hi you know I'm good enough to do better plays as scum than to lurk and scummy hammer and my Hydra partner not doing her part isn't going to.make scum any less likely to nightkill me?

Like 100% one team kills me if I'm not docced I only live if both do

[Tatl and Tael]

Not intentionally outing alts but he replaced an obvscum slot and both of you are trying to encourage the doc to encourage someone who hard caught gif scum in our last game and hard caught Ali in Night and Day

Ali doesn't push some.sort of crap about how I shoulsnt be docced for having been absent s few days nor does he ever call me scummy for that hammer

[Tatl and Tael]

hi you know I'm good enough to do better plays as scum than to lurk and scummy hammer and my Hydra partner not doing her part isn't going to.make scum any less likely to nightkill me?

Like 100% one team kills me if I'm not docced I only live if both do

U-uh, I think its just my opinion that I don't like the fact you've been laying low.

Fuck you you know that I don't lurk or lie low as scum in multiball where my only chance of survival is the doc save.

Ali is scum

[Tatl and Tael]

HHUH I ALMOST EXPECT SCUM RC RO SLSO DICTATE A LOT MORE ITS ALMOSR LIKE YOU KNIW THAT SCUM RC IS MORE CONSISTENTLY A DICTATOR AND ARE USING A BULLSHIT EXCUSE TO TRY TO OPEN ME UP FOE A NIGHTKILL

HARDCLAIM NG A GULTY ON ALISAE HERE

[Tatl and Tael]

Oh wow Alisae citing a bullshit guide despite knowing that I've fakeclaimed guilties in the past and barring the single situation where I claimed one not intentionally due to being super drunk I have never misclaimed a guilty.

Not that this counts to the standards but Ali never discredits me rather than calling me scum for being wrong if he was town.

[Tatl and Tael]

And no I don't have to fake a guilty to Lynch you.

But I'm making it as clear as possible where my reads stand since you're clearly tactically trying to divert the doctor.

[Tatl and Tael]

This isn't the way townisae talks to me.

Doc on me or not, mikan isn't surviving tomorrow ever

[Tatl and Tael]

How would town mikan talk to you?

Answer: not like this.