Mini 1993 - Earthbound Mafia: Giygas' Curse - GAME OVER

[Mathdino]

the worst is town, or at least not scum with InfBraf. Cheeky scumplay like that isn't his thing I think.

No read on the hydra, feels like they're playing in an intentionally scummy way, but whatever.

acryon is probtown until someone finds me evidence that they open scumgames like this.

VOTE: Paradox

Correct move is to always wagon this guy.

Edit: Long time no see Marangal, acryon
I don't think I've ever played on the same team as either of you?

[Mathdino]

Shutting down RVS by trying to policy lynch hydrae?

VOTE: InfernoBrafin

Don't like Hydrae. Offer reads with no accountability because "the other head did it".

VOTE: InfernoBrafin

Don't like Hydrae. Offer reads with no accountability because "the other head did it".

VOTE: acryon
You don't understand how hydras work.

-Assembler

Or maybe the hydras I've played with in the past didn't understand, if that's my experience?

Appreciate the clear representation from both hydras so far though

This is one of those things that people so commonly see as scummy (even though it's not actually scummy) that's wrapped around to the point where scum just don't do stuff like this.

Like, obviously scum-acryon should know that he's not gonna get any votes on these guys just for being a hydra, and should also know that an action like this isn't gonna get him any towncred because it's not actually scumhunting.

In fact, doing this actually hurts scum-acryon because it ends RVS early over some stupid shit that he could easily get lynched for.

So yeah, unless you can get meta that suggests scum-acryon does shit like this in his openings, he's town.

[Mathdino]

If I told you, then you would know how to rack up townreads easier. I have no incentive to actually explain this to you, lol.

For starters, your acryon push is bad and OMGUSy.

What's your read on the worst?

Edit: Always scummy, flashwagoning scummy players is great for (hilarious) reactions.

[Mathdino]

Whether or not you scumread me isn't really my concern. Your playstyle is naturally scummy, and if you're scum, explaining why is literally anti town for me to do.

Why would I provide reads on everyone else but you in this situation?

Regardless, I generally don't have strong reads on naturally scummy players. The scumminess masks the alignment indicative stuff.

[Mathdino]

I played with James in a jester game but I guess that doesn't count. I'm literally getting the "your play is always scummy" vibe from this game.

Some people, when they hydra together, always end up being weirdly scummy in a way that's unlike their own play. It's NAI.

No read on the hydra,

feels like they're playing in an intentionally scummy way, but whatever.

I never said I scumread you. If I did, I'd be on your wagon.

Are you scumreading literally everyone whos noticed your play is scummy? What about bujabers post is something scum do? Skipping rvs is pro-town.

[Mathdino]

1. Yes, that's what I'm telling you. You have a 3/12 chance of being scum. It doesn't benefit anyone to tell town-you why you're being scummy, and it's actively counterproductive to give scum-you a road map on how to be less scummy. I want to be able to read your natural tone, uninfluenced by people telling you how to act.

2. I mean for one, RVS was already over by the time Bujaber got here. How is it more pro-town to step in, place a random vote, and leave, than it is to give a vote with actual reasons?

RVS is important but when it's over you don't try to extend it.

Edit: Okay, then vote me and see where that takes you. Telling me why you think I'm scummy isn't helpful to anyone.

[Mathdino]

You do understand the difference between "scummy" and "actually likely to be scum", right?

Like if I went out here and was like "HELLO EVERYONE I AM MATHDINO AND I AM PLACING A RANDOM VOTE"

that's an objectively scummy thing to say, but it doesn't actually make me more likely to be scum.

Your play is scummy in the sense that it's likely to draw votes, but it's not actually more likely to be scum.

[Mathdino]

luckily there are 4 people in this game who can back me up on the fact that i use "scummy" to mean something entirely different from "more likely to be scum"

like i could get a cop guilty on a super townish player and that still wouldn't make them scummy

scummy is a matter of weird behaviours that people on MS tend to get pinged by

but see my real issue right now is you chose to wait until after paradox came in and RVS'd me to start a wagon on me

when you easily could've voted me the 3 other times you chose to tell me you're scumreading me

so why now and not before

[Mathdino]

No read on the hydra, feels like they're playing in an intentionally scummy way, but whatever.

what about this post makes you think i'm shading you?

do you believe i'm shading your alignment, or your skill/quality as a player?

[Mathdino]

Edit: Always scummy, flashwagoning scummy players is great for (hilarious) reactions.

also note that i said this in reference to paradox's play

given that he's been mislynched in both games i've played with him, the idea that paradox is always scummy holds true

so do you also believe i'm shading paradox by saying this

Edit: cool
well i was shading your hydra's play quality
not your alignment
in fact, had you actually asked me if i was scumreading you about a page ago, i'd have called you gun-to-my-head town

also i literally didn't say that you and brafin interacting with each other was the scummy thing, don't know where that comes from

@Beefster: do you think anything of the fact that inferno literally just gave me reasons for why i thought they were scummy

[Mathdino]

Inferno:

Where I get the shade fro is you acting like the way we are trying to be transparent with our reads is scum-like behavior, but then being flippant about it. It looks like you're calling us scum without actually committing to a read.

AH SEE AGAIN

i said absolutely nothing about you and brafin trying to be transparent with your reads

all i said was that you guys are naturally scummy in a hydra together

in fact, had i chosen to paragraphpost on that when i made 33, i would've said something like
I can sorta see where the scumreads on IB are coming from, but it seems like they're one of those hydra pairs that naturally acts scummy when together; thus far I haven't seen anything actually alignment indicative. It's also possible they're one of those players that intentionally acts scummy in early game, but whatever. Nullread on them.

do you have any thoughts on the fact that i clearly also used "scummy" in relation to paradox's play in 39

[Mathdino]

VOTE: InfernoBrafin

this has nothing to do with your generally scummy vibes FTR

opportunistic, could've easily voted me when i basically asked them to
instead chose to wait until after paradox voted me

then assuming reasons for other people scumreading them is an actual scumtell (i think? i haven't seen this behaviour often enough to confirm this but scum is generally more self-conscious)

[Mathdino]

Inferno:

Okay, but this leads me right back to the point of you won't explain what you find about our play that is scummy, leaving me to only guess about what you could possibly be calling out. Right now it just looks like you are using the fact that we're a hydra to call us scummy.

I think that you're throwing accusations at Paradox of scummy play really early, which is odd. I also think that a flash wagon this early can be interpreted as "hunting for PRs," which makes me trust you less. Not knowing your scum or town meta, I don't know what It means for you yet. But I will.

but again

it was of no benefit for me to start telling everyone exactly how you're scummy

because
1. I don't want people to start using my reasons as bad reasons to scumread you.
2. I don't want to give you a road map to getting a townread from me. I want you to play how you naturally play and we'll see what happens.

what you're not understanding is the fact that i wasn't paragraphposting about what made you scummy was actively an effort to not start riling people up about you

and yeah, paradox has been mislynched in 2 different games, once mislynched while i was hard-defending him the entire game
so i believe i have the right to call paradox scummy
it's like you're actively ignoring the idea that a player can be scummy in every game they're in
jaydragonking and momo are obvious examples

[Mathdino]

Inferno:

A) It's no benefit to you, but it is benefit to town. Town needs to explain reads so that they can better sort and find scum, even if the read is poor. The fact that you're going to withhold information so as "not to get a mislynch" on someone you find is playing scummy seems incredibly off.

We're not going to change our play to look townie. That's scummy behavior in of itself. What I can do if you explain your read is have a conversation about it and gather information from that read to form my own reads.

And you're telling me that if Paradox had a very towny town game, you'd call it scummy anyways becasue he's a scummy player? Because that's what it seems ike you're saying.

1. I disagree. If I were actually scumreading you at the time, I would've explained it. However, I was not scumreading you, I was noting that your playstyle is such that a lot of people are going to find it scummy. THAT'S what I mean by "scummy".
Now that I am scumreading you, I explained it.

2. Yeah, town doesn't do that, but scum does. There are times when fully explaining a scumread is anti-town. Plus I wasn't scumreading you, lol.

3. Yes! I was scum with him as town, and I recognised that he was generally pretty scummy (to the point where everyone else but me was scumreading him), but I hard defended him because he always plays that way as town. I was fake-townreading him, despite admitting that he was scummy and dropped scumtells everywhere.

Inferno:

No. Scummy is a term used to define a post. It cannot be used to define an overall playstyle. People make townie posts as well as scummy posts. The only way you cold convinve me of a scummy player is to find one where every single thing that player posted could fall under the category scummy.

Play more games, lol.

Regardless, you now know my full thought process behind my progression on you, but you're still interpreting my posts under your definition of the word "scummy", when someone has already confirmed that's not how I use it. How does insisting on framing my posts using your definition, help you get a read on me?

[Mathdino]

"Good at being town" is about being right, not about posturing and acting like you're town.

You, for example, are always going to rack up scumreads if you play like this. Am I calling you bad at playing mafia for this? No.

I mean right now I'm calling you bad at playing this game because so far you've cast shade on pretty much everyone who's voted you. If you're town, then your reads are what I'd call self-centred.

You also never answered my question about how you're reading the worst, which is hilarious given that you talk a big game about discussing reads.

[Mathdino]

everyone voting me is doing something anti-town because i am town

i've also seen vigilantes shoot conftown before

are either of these actions scummy

obviously not

otherwise i could call anyone who ever votes me scummy

stop with the semantics and get into the game

like i've already won the semantics battle in terms of "people have confirmed that i do in fact use words this way outside of the game"

you can either continue digging your head into the sand on this one, or just accept it and get reads on people despite all that

[Mathdino]

Brafin: I find the whole "I don't like hydras" thing fishy. That seems really biased against hydras, and a great, scummy way for a non-hydra to say "He's scummy because he's not accounting for the other hydra."
Inferno, I'd like to shift our vote to acryon.

Inferno: RUDE! I'm just approaching the game objectively! Skipping RVS like this and calling half of a hydra scummy is really dumb.
VOTE: BuJaber

Inferno:

Mathdino, the fact that you are saying that Brafin and I are scummy without actually explaining why is scummy in itself. I sound like you're trying to scumread us without actually providing a read.
Plus, we didn't really even push acroyn. We're pushing BuJaber.

@BuJaber, mind if we call you BJ for simplification?
@Worst, I'm glad that someone appreciates my failures at life.

you did not shade beefster or the worst

but that was also after i called you out for shading all the people who criticised you so

[Mathdino]

1. how is that a fallacy
from my perspective, anyone who votes me is doing something anti-town
does this give me the right to call people scummy for voting me

furthermore, is voting a mod-confirmed innocent child scummy?
fuck no, it's just a meme thing to do

2. just stop it with the wordplay
it's not misleading, because literally every other game i've been in people have understood it; you're the one choosing to harp on me for this because you're obsessed with wanting to know why i think you act scummy

I'M ALSO NOT CALLING YOU SCUMMY FOR THE SEMANTICS DISCUSSION BTW

SO ADD THAT TO THE LIST OF REASONS YOU'RE SCUM THAT YOU'VE PUT IN MY MOUTH

[Mathdino]

@IB: "Scummy" is a set of behaviours that often ping people or get people to gutscumread them. Most newbies are scummy.
This is different from "scum-indicative", which is the set of behaviours that have been shown to indicate scum.

Inconsistency, for example is scummy. But I'd actually argue it's scum-indicative.

@Icon: I didn't intend to go through this trouble until it started actively confusing this hydra. It's generally not an issue with people.

Icon is town btw.

[Mathdino]

you do realise i only over-explain shit when asked to or when people don't understand me

the convo with IB was intended to help sort them (went null -> nulltown -> scumlean)

where in my posts do you see IIoA that wasn't a direct clarification to another player

[Mathdino]

Beefster-scum doesn't fencesit on a read on me. I think he would either townread me to get me off his back or explicitly go after me in a gambit.

This is based on some unsubstantiated notion of what a player would do after being powerlynched by another player (I got Beefster-scum early D1 in another game).

Regardless, the level of nuance in Beefster's read on me (Hmmm IB is scummy but so is Math, but tbh IB is scummier which probably makes Math town) is unlike scum-him.

[Mathdino]

so early argument I wasn't crazy about the idea of scum!Inferno. it's really easy to see him doing scummy things but I was trying to gauge his actual motivation for getting involved in such a stupid semantic fight with such a confident player so early in the game.

it's actually shit being called scummy / scumread by someone as assertive as Math this early in the game. treat my questions as an attempt to poke and prod Inferno for some semblance of towniness.

tbh though by the end of the argument he feels so... phoney. like, he's clearly realised he's wrong but it feels like he's still going to win some moral high ground or something.

I can whinge about nearly all of his posts if you want. Tbh I'm not sure if I don't like him cause he's scum trying to discredit obvtown reads or don't like him cause his debating skills suck and he's trying to wing it anyway.

I think had I not read TW's scumgame, I'd be locktowning this progression, but as it is I'll call it a townlean. I'll admit reading through his scumgame that there's something markedly different about how he goes about his reads/thought process.

He seems less confident. I think that's a townsign for him.

Edit: I feel dude, take the time you need.

[Mathdino]

While IB did vote for you after Paradox did, I don't see how they're taking advantage of a situation. Paradox's ISO is just politely asking all hydra accounts to make sure all players can know who is posting at all times and playfully responding to votes in RVS. No thoughts or actions taken regarding meaningful content. IB is being wagoned right now. They're also both new to the site so reputation shouldn't be a factor. So the likelihood of a serious wagon forming on you with them leading the charge should've been slim no?

@LUV

: I don't see the relevance of Paradox's ISO? I wasn't voting Paradox for anything that he'd actually posted.

I'm suggesting that scum is often afraid to start voting their scumreads, especially when they're scumreading someone active/confident, until someone else in the game validates that. Paradox voting me in a sense gave IB a pass to start a wagon on me as a counterwagon to themselves. I think they assumed that they would win the semantics debate and people would fall in line.

It doesn't matter how likely *I* thought a wagon on me was. Like if I carry myself with confidence it's because I just don't seem to get D1 lynched when I play the way I do.

What matters is how likely *IB* thought it was that I could get wagoned. And I think they were confident once Paradox voted that they could pull something off.

@All

: Given that LUV is engaging with players and asking fair questions, I feel like I should be townreading him, but I'm really not. A lot of it seems like it could be scum going through the motions. Comfortable with votes on LUV if you don't like the IB push.

Edit: oh hey TW what do you think of LUV

[Mathdino]

Dino, talk to me

How likely is that vote placed out of frustration vs it being placed because of actual opportunistic behavior?

The slot was frustrated with me beforehand, but they didn't vote me, even when I gave them an opening to.

Inferno only chose to vote me after Paradox's vote.

I see a correlation. Now it's possible that's town-opportunism (it happens), but I think it's just more likely to be scum.

VOTE: Bujaber

This is a serious vote, and I think this slot should actually get lynched. It feels like he's decided to just piggy back on the hottest topic atm. Possibly to look like he's being active?

It does feel a bit like that. However, the big paragraph to me pings as town-effort. Not that quantity = town, but I feel like we'd see the effort portrayed differently if he were just trying to get credit for activity.

This is interesting. I found the big paragraph to be NAI. I also found Bujaber commenting on the "hottest topic" to be NAI. It's one of those things where since it's the only thing going on in the thread, you kinda have to comment on it.

I'll admit that if IB is town, Bujaber's probably the scum on the wagon, so I can see Marangal's perspective.

A) When we or any player asks why someone thinks they are behaving scummy, it is a pointed question to out bad scumreads, not a "This is how I should behave" tactic. If that were the case, Inferno would have been much less self conscious a long time ago. He's asking the question in order to scumhunt.
B) The vote against Dino was made in jest as a RVS it seems, but Beef treats it as a real vote? Super sus.

Finger of Suspicion Beef.

A. Wow, it's a good thing

I at no point scumread you guys until the page where I actually voted you

.
B. The fuck? How is not realising that a vote was an RVS vote an alignment indicative thing? Beefster is super town bro.

I can't wait for you to pair me/Beef, I'm so ready

No read on the hydra, feels like they're playing in an

intentionally scummy

way, but whatever.

what about this post makes you think i'm shading you?

do you believe i'm shading your alignment, or your skill/quality as a player?

DUDE. THE SERIOUS FRICK.

The answer to your own question is

literally

in the post you quoted.
Either you're stupid (doubtful) not paying attention (likely) or this is insanely scummy. (Occam's Razor)

ughhhh
do i haaaaave to respond to this

do you understand that saying someone could be playing in a way that is intentionally scummy
DOES NOT MAKE THAT PLAYER SCUM

like, given that literally no one in this entire game actually is approaching this argument the way inferno is
i'd have expected brafin to come along and be like "yo inferno stop with the semantics debate, i see what mathdino's saying"
but the fact that he's apparently in lockstep with his partner is just unbelievable/unrealistic

scumread intensifies

[Mathdino]

he was pretty clearly robbed from best new artist tbh

anyway who u gonna vote for boio

[Mathdino]

Ironically, I it really weird that you have the exact same PoE pool as I do. TW, acryon, Beef are all townlean to town for me.

I've played with the worst before, as a few have noted. Played his first towngame and I cold meta'd his first scumgame (scumbuddies with someone that I later hydra'd with).

Tbh, I'm nervous to go after Marangal so soon because if we open that floodgate now it's never gonna close. Our playstyles don't mesh so well. I should be able to sort her by associations later on though.

marshy is alban, good to know you're not scum with them.

Regardless, talk to me about your null-list.

[Mathdino]

@Bujaber:

Re: the worst:

so early argument I wasn't crazy about the idea of scum!Inferno. it's really easy to see him doing scummy things but I was trying to gauge his actual motivation for getting involved in such a stupid semantic fight with such a confident player so early in the game.

it's actually shit being called scummy / scumread by someone as assertive as Math this early in the game. treat my questions as an attempt to poke and prod Inferno for some semblance of towniness.

tbh though by the end of the argument he feels so... phoney. like, he's clearly realised he's wrong but it feels like he's still going to win some moral high ground or something.

I can whinge about nearly all of his posts if you want. Tbh I'm not sure if I don't like him cause he's scum trying to discredit obvtown reads or don't like him cause his debating skills suck and he's trying to wing it anyway.

I think had I not read TW's scumgame, I'd be locktowning this progression, but as it is I'll call it a townlean. I'll admit reading through his scumgame that there's something markedly different about how he goes about his reads/thought process.

He seems less confident. I think that's a townsign for him.

Re: Beefster

:

Beefster-scum doesn't fencesit on a read on me. I think he would either townread me to get me off his back or explicitly go after me in a gambit.

This is based on some unsubstantiated notion of what a player would do after being powerlynched by another player (I got Beefster-scum early D1 in another game).

Regardless, the level of nuance in Beefster's read on me (Hmmm IB is scummy but so is Math, but tbh IB is scummier which probably makes Math town) is unlike scum-him.

Re: acryon

:

Shutting down RVS by trying to policy lynch hydrae?

VOTE: InfernoBrafin

Don't like Hydrae. Offer reads with no accountability because "the other head did it".

Or maybe the hydras I've played with in the past didn't understand, if that's my experience?

Appreciate the clear representation from both hydras so far though

This is one of those things that people so commonly see as scummy (even though it's not actually scummy) that's wrapped around to the point where scum just don't do stuff like this.

Like, obviously scum-acryon should know that he's not gonna get any votes on these guys just for being a hydra, and should also know that an action like this isn't gonna get him any towncred because it's not actually scumhunting.

In fact, doing this actually hurts scum-acryon because it ends RVS early over some stupid shit that he could easily get lynched for.

So yeah, unless you can get meta that suggests scum-acryon does shit like this in his openings, he's town.

[Mathdino]

but him overly explaining and arguing about something insignificant is actually a personality trait.

I lol'd

Yeah I'm not continuing that debate

Fucking lol when players link me wiki pages in the middle of mafia games

Yo IB check out Slayers Gambit for a wiki page on a strategy that doesn't work

It's about being intentionally scummy early game to get reactions

[Mathdino]

IB my first vote on you was a gut reaction to your opening posts. You sounded like a robot. That is a scum tell because people sound like robots when they are trying to not convey any emotion.

Dammit man why'd ya have to spoil the secret

Fwiw I agree with this, and noticed it early game, but I don't believe roboticness is a real scumtell, so I ignored it

[Mathdino]

Mathdino is town. I will literally quit mafiascum if math is scum here.
Effortpost tommorrow, too tired today.

Wow huh did I actually roll into my first game with scum Paradox

Also I'm basically down to policy lynch brafin at this point

They're never getting NKd if their reads include gems like
- BuJaber getting annoyed at BJ is alignment indicative
- Beefster scumslipped by saying TW and I share alignment
- Beefsterscum purposefully took an RVS vote as serious for ~reasons~
- Either I think IB is a jester or I'm admitting I'm scum
Hey IB I guess I'm scum
- Mathdino is scum for being defencive

[Mathdino]

Second, I have done run a successful Slayer's Gambit, albeit unknowingly. Did my first game on the site. And that's not what I'm doing here. Stop shading corn.

great, let's policy lynch this

[Mathdino]

when i came back and lost my first game since my hiatus to scum that i was trying to policy lynch for all of D1

[Mathdino]

Tbh, I'm nervous to go after Marangal so soon because if we open that floodgate now it's never gonna close. Our playstyles don't mesh so well. I should be able to sort her by associations later on though.

Is that why you are more or less limiting your interaction with me?

What are you making of the IB wagon building within the day?

What are you making of the fact that I feel pretty lock-steppy with you?

1. basically yeah
i have little incentive to sort you right now

2. seems fine, most of it is town for independent reasons
if there's non-town on it it's bujaber
i think i said that already

3. i make nothing of it
i say fewer dumb things and have had better reads since i came back
so maybe great minds think alike, idk

[Mathdino]

hey TW

am i obligated to explain basic aspects of how this game works

when i'm not actually in a newbie game

or can i just claim scum to IB to troll them and move on with my life

[Mathdino]

i guess i'm obvjester

which is funny cuz i just beat james brafin in a game where i was jester and got myself lynched lol

[Mathdino]

Mathdino is town. I will literally quit mafiascum if math is scum here.
Effortpost tommorrow, too tired today.

I MISSED THIS
It feels like the probability of town saying this so confidently is pretty low. Other than that though I like Paradox so treat this as a FOS

what do you like about paradox

i felt like all his content before 193 was NAI

193 in particular is a level of confidence i've never seen in paradox

like, he SHOULDN'T be townreading me

our last game together i basically pocketed his ass from D2 onward, and we mutually townread each other into the sunset

everyone in that game except RC was surprised

so what the fuck makes him this confident that i'm not scum this game

[Mathdino]

the mistake you're making is trying to engage with him

can confirm

i could wagon paradox tbh

or LUV

[Mathdino]

hey can we get a prod on the Assembler/momo hydra

That seems like the worst combination

[Mathdino]

The key here is I've played with Paradox twice and snowed him as scum when he thought I was for sure town

Yet he's not suspicious of me at all this game

[Mathdino]

I mean i kinda scumread marangals defence but I've literally never seen a good defence from her

So w/e ignoring this for now

I can't get a lock on a read on BuJaber tbh

[Mathdino]

Also, I want to point out that #193 is actually bannable.

That's not true at all
Obviously if he's scum he knows I'm town
Go look up how trust tells really work
People say that exact line all the time

[Mathdino]

Also, I want to point out that #193 is actually bannable.

That's not true at all
Obviously if he's scum he knows I'm town
Go look up how trust tells really work
People say that exact line all the time

Inferno:

"Do not bring outside influences into the game -

this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, "trust tells", alliances, etc.

Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another."

From the site rules.

no one actually leaves the site over this
some of the most experienced players here say this shit all the time
what's the purpose of pointing this out dude

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

i'm so salty

[Mathdino]

it's at the very least a policy wagon

i'm not sure if i'd be willing to straight up lynch him right away

i'd say it's 40% policy 40% reaction/pressure 20% memes

[Mathdino]

It sure sounds like he's talking to IB.

Don't lynch cuz probtown: {Beefster, acryon, the worst, Iconeum, Gamma}

Need sorting: {Marangal, S&S}

Could be scum, wouldn't be surprised: {Bujaber, LUV}

Would lynch: {Paradox, IB, N_M}

[Mathdino]

fuck i mixed up my games lol

m'bad

add kthxbye to "need to sort" and that makes 13, cool

i'm wagoning paradox if he doesn't come back and read the game/answer why tf he's townreading me so hard

[Mathdino]

you guys are both getting upset at each other over things that are clearly playstyle

like yeah i did in fact notice the things you guys are seeing in each other

i just realised it was mostly NAI

none of the things in marangal's 281 are actual scumtells that work tbh

if you want to really sell me on each other do some cold meta and i'll take a look

if it's good i'll push your case for you

[Mathdino]

So I'm at the point where I'd be willing to policy lynch half the playerlist

So I should probably tone that down

That said

Not_Mafia tho

[Mathdino]

it's at the very least a policy wagon

i'm not sure if i'd be willing to straight up lynch him right away

i'd say it's 40% policy 40% reaction/pressure 20% memes

lmao
VOTE: Not_Mafia
Dino this is the reason I'm townreading you so hard:
It's a little something called

irony

.
Don't take it seriously.
Also,

@mod, will be V/LA until Tuesday

noted.

How have you done nothing all game

Are you actually town reading me or not

What even

[Mathdino]

In these posts, Math either A) uses our use of the word scummy to assume we scumread him, or B) assumes that when he calls us scummy, people will scumread us even though he admits that most know that's not how he uses the word. It's not consistent, and strikes me as odd.

scummy is literally acting in a way that makes people scumread you

i've played games where all the scummiest players were town

look it's shit like this

that makes it in no way beneficial for me to keep interacting with you

why do you want me to continue filling up pages with a 1v1 against you

i just don't care anymore

like, there's not a single player in this game who's taken your side against me

and you think i've gone silent on your questioning because i'm scum who's afraid of you...?

literally the more i interact with you, the more other people want to vote you

[Mathdino]

Yo.

Fair warning: Assemblerotws and I don't have a line of communication yet so I'll need to set that up sooner rather than later, and furthermore, he brought me in frankly at a time I consider too early (one of the reasons he wanted to hydra with me is because he thinks I can be awesome sometimes, but the times I can be awesome are often after D1), so he'll probably end up disappointed in me, but oh well, I did agree.

inb4 assembler brought you in because you're better at scum

is k

i will respect your lack of confidence in your D1 abilities

and not listen to your reads for now

[Mathdino]

But seriously, you don't find it awkward for acro to vote a slot he admits to be a lynchbait in his own experience? I'd say that is either bad distancing or bad posturing (i.e. both are scum or acro is scum who tried to look genuine but failed).

The "too scummy to be scum" fallacy". Go it

The question is: wouldn't scum!acronym also know it's likely to be seen that way and thus doing it on purpose to be TR'd by someone like you? I mean, acro is no newbie, so things are not as simple and very much WIFOMy at this stage.

1. I always vote lynchbait slots in RVS, and you can verify that. I do it to sort people. Plus it looks more like acryon is trying to policy lynch hydrae there.

2. It's not "too scummy to be scum". It's "lack of caring what other people think of him".

3. No? I mean I'm a pretty different player from the last time I was in a game with acryon, and I'm pretty confident that me from 2014 would've wagoned him for that shit. It's a risky play.

How the hell could he "easily get lynched" for something you're calling him TOWN for???

Math: Either you're scum with this guy or this is you from the that game and acro is replacing Jay. Now which is it?

Because I don't represent everyone, and I often (correctly) townread things that other players don't. acryon had no reason to believe I'd defend him.

Granted, the fact that no one's really argued with me over the acryon-town thing is pretty questionable. acryon is better off sorted after a flip IMO.

Hmmm... I guess I should go straight into your scum pile then??

OK.. I'm seeing lots of action between Dino and Inferno but I haven't yet seen anything worthy about BuJaber. (Which is what I'm reading the thread for)!!

Also, and if I may say this.. both Dino and Inferno are being ridiculous. It's NAI for me 9as I can't decide if either would have the guts to do what they're doing if they're actually scum. I know Dino IS ballsy, but this is really really stupid and if it leads to a

mislynch

it would immediately backfire on him.

1. No. Your push isn't OMGUSy. Your push on acryon is fine.

2. Yo I didn't intend to spend 4 pages trying to explain the definition of the word "scummy". It would be a lot more helpful here if you could use that shit to come up with a read.

You're gonna have a lot of fun when you see me jumping off the wagon, lol.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Mathdino

Serious vote

let's 1v1 in lylo bro

solid idea right here

[Mathdino]

does mastina also think i'm mathblade

fucking lol

i joined before mathblade jesus christ

[Mathdino]

Mastina have you read a single town game of mine since I came back from 4 years ago?

[Mathdino]

I'm just gonna wait until everyone catches up and is in real time before tearing this apart.

I think mastina thinks I'm someone else and is mixing up my playstyle with someone else.

[Mathdino]

inb4 assembler brought you in because you're better at scum

Actually Assembler started conversing with me specifically because he wanted to learn from my TOWN game, believe it or not. Yes scumastina is known for being a far, far, far, far more competent player than like 98% of scum players on the site, but Assembler wasn't really interested in her skills. The thing which got us talking was my talents as town. He wanted to see the magic in the process working, more or less.

On that note this is an awfully easy way for you to segue into discrediting and/or scumreading me if you don't like what I have to say.

Which, I imagine, you don't!

that was a joke

i am not seriously scumreading you based on the fact that assembler brought you in

i also considered hydraing with you when i got back from hiatus (which you know) to specifically work on my towngame (which i value more than my scumgame)

but then i realised i wasn't as rusty as i thought i'd be and dropped it

[Mathdino]

Nope! Fine way to turn a typo on my part into an attempt to discredit my read though!

wat

If, from my perspective, it was actually a typo, then that doesn't work at all to discredit your read.

If it wasn't a typo, and you actually thought I was Mathblade, then it would've been useless for me to try to respond to your apparently half-meta-based read on me before you fully caught up and realised your mistake.

Like obviously I disagree with your read given that it's incorrect. But I'm trying to figure out if you're wrong due to incorrect assumptions or just wrong because you're D1 mastina.

I'm also pretty peeved that I can't use you or A50 to help me sort acryon given that your reads on him are apparently "WELL I'M CALLING THE D1 SCUMTEAM AS MATHDINO/ACRYON" which I obviously can't do anything with.

[Mathdino]

Anyway point is your take on my play (especially my D1 play) being like a calculator is really not accurate as of me coming back (which is why I figured you thought I was Mathblade). Like, yeah I turn into a calculator when the playercount goes down (you should see me in micros) but D1 of minis I mostly play off gut.

I've also gotten a lot more confident lately (which is helped by a few towngames where I was basically right for all of D1), and either people are around to rein me in, or they're not.

When I push early wagons, I expect that others will weigh in. I'm glad you disagree on the IB read, because we can actually talk about it (instead of me and IB shouting at each other for pages on end). I can easily get locked in tunnels in "sub-par towns".

I'm not glad that you chose to just call IB obvtown and base your read on me around that, though. So it would be pretty nice if you explained why IB is obvtown.

[Mathdino]

mastina haven't you literally gone on record saying that you can't meta players when you only know one side of their meta? Or was that someone else?

I'm at the point where I literally think all your scumreads are likely town (Marangal is currently unsortable by me granted) and half your townreads are scum.

[Mathdino]

mastina if you're not planning on engaging me at all outside of just repeatedly calling me scum for every post, then I'm not gonna stick around until other players come back. Like do you actually want to get anything out of this interaction?

You call me a competent town player but don't seem to care about my reads in the case that I actually am town.

[Mathdino]

You turned what was clearly a typo (given I had multiple times typed your name as Mathdino prior to accidentally once typing it as Mathblade) into a multi-post series of trying to frame the narrative that I thought you were Mathblade. (I don't.) It was taking advantage of what was a very unambiguous mistake on my part and making the most out of it.

You're not understanding. FMPOV, either

1. You actually thought I was Mathblade, and it was thus useless to respond to your posts when you thought I was someone else,
or
2. You didn't actually think I was Mathblade, in which case you were gonna come back and correct your error anyway.

It seems like you're assuming that I, as scum, would somehow know that you made an error there and specifically tried to discredit your case based around that error... when you were just gonna tell me "NOPE FUCK YOUR DISCREDIT" the moment you caught up. How does that help me?

I'm also pretty peeved that I can't use you or A50 to help me sort acryon given that your reads on him are apparently "WELL I'M CALLING THE D1 SCUMTEAM AS MATHDINO/ACRYON" which I obviously can't do anything with.

What happened to your own townread on him? You should have him sorted off of reasoning of your own, given you stated he was town in no less than five places.

Which magically upon the entrance of Almost50 an influential player scumreading him went to best to sort on a different day.

Which bullshit narrative would you like to stick with? Your original "acryon is town" read, your "acryon is best sorted after D1" read, or your newest as of this post "I can't sort acryon without help" read?

1. Yeah, I gutread him as town based on page 1. Anyone who disagreed with me had a pretty shitty argument. So I stuck to my own reasoning.

2. aaaand when A50 comes in and says "Hey Mathdino most of your reads seem right but this one seems off-base" then yeah, I'm gonna listen. That said, acryon is a good player (definitely better than you're describing but idk if you've played with him) and I have little confidence in my ability to catch scum-him on D1. He can be caught on associations. I've played with scum-him.

3. A50's argument is fair. So I'm not calling acryon "locktown" but I am putting him in the "let's townbin him for now since he's not a good D1 lynch and reevaluate upon D2". That's actually the bin I usually reserve for players like A50. There are certain people I just don't like to lynch on D1.

It'd be POSSIBLE to come from a town you doing the calculator thing.
But it's undeniable.
This game you've done the calculator thing.
The calculator thing comes from scum.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by stating that it was at least a possibility you'd do the calculator thing as town...

...But sure, if you say you wouldn't do the calculator thing as town, I'm fine with that because that means you're outright admitting it came from scum.

My interpretation of "the calculator thing" is that when D3 rolls around I start coming up with VCA, NKA, associatives all over the place, and more specifically, lynch orders (which is 100% what you saw in my scumgame).

Yet D1 of that scumgame was spent tunneling Gamma, complaining about the game, and soft-defending Creature. All basically gut/emotional plays.

So you're gonna have to explain what you mean by "that calculator thing".

[Mathdino]

Brafin isn't Vax, but I think you could reasonably argue that I "beat" Brafin by getting myself lynched with his slot's help.

Paradox doesn't appear to be gambiting. I don't actually know what he's doing.

Umm.. so am I allowed to drive or not after having that??

@Math: Did you include Gamma deliberately in your reads? Hmmm.. probably not. I hadn't even joined the game by then so it can't be that you are baiting me.

But still, man.. you know THAT is why I SR'd srceen in the game you were modding, so excuse me if I'm starting to really be wary of you.

- Don't know what you mean

- No, I was sorting the players and realised I was 1 short of 13. Checked the playerlist, saw Gamma, and added him in under town. I obviously can't tell you why I put him as town.

- Keep in mind Screenplay wasn't actually in a game with me when he added the mod to his reads list. Do your own research.
Also Screenplay was town, lol.

Edit: Okay so that's 3 players who don't like to explain their IB townread, gotcha.

[Mathdino]

What point? You don't have the background mastina has with me.

My interpretation of her points are:

- The IB push was bad (okay but I wagon players specifically to see what people think)
- I'm playing to my scum meta (her town meta on me is 4 years old)
- Mathdino is trying to get easy mislynches (I can promise you, and you can choose to believe me or not, that if IB was instantly run up to L-1, I'd have jumped off and evaluated)
- I assume she thinks I hate policy lynches because I used to hate them 4 years ago, so she's associating policy lynches with scum-me? Idk what that one's about.
- Mathdino is discrediting the case against him (no shit, because it's incorrect and I prefer to know why)

[Mathdino]

I would point out that you've played with me as a replace-in, which always makes me obvtown since I can just come in and say "FUCK ALL YOUR READS, LET'S DO THIS". Kind of like what A50 and mastina are doing.

I have a long track record since I came back, for people tunneling town-me based on my early game and my entrances. I usually recover D2 because I'm hard to lynch on D1 (people don't like to lynch someone who's clearly positive utility for town).

In this case, I'm at least glad that you're onboard with lynching mastina tomorrow if this wagon on me actually pulls through, because she's already set herself up with "Assembler pulled me in at the wrong time, I suck D1" and is likely to default to "WOE IS ME MY READS SUCK" after my flip. So don't let her get away with that, etc etc. She's good as scum and I think in the world that she IS scum, I'm her biggest threat. She knows I'm entirely okay policy lynching people who are better as scum than town.

Read on mastina still evolving. That scumread is based on the potential mastina-behaviour that would result in her not reevaluating at all and managing a lynch on me. Right now I'm not sure.

GEE IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF SHE EXPLAINED SOME READS TO ME BUT W/E

[Mathdino]

See I disagree that things are scummy unless scum do it. Again this is a deal where people say things are scumtells (lying, self-voting, etc) which is just armchair mafia philosophising.

For example, I disagree that scum more often than town, vote for lynchbait in RVS. I'll admit that I haven't really evaluated acryon's play after early game but I don't remember seeing anything particularly AI since then.

[Mathdino]

In this case, I'm at least glad that you're onboard with lynching mastina tomorrow if this wagon on me actually pulls through, because she's already set herself up with "Assembler pulled me in at the wrong time, I suck D1" and is likely to default to "WOE IS ME MY READS SUCK" after my flip. So don't let her get away with that, etc etc. She's good as scum and I think in the world that she IS scum, I'm her biggest threat. She knows I'm entirely okay policy lynching people who are better as scum than town.

I retract this, along with the "Mathdino accepts being lynched today on the condition that people sheep his reads tomorrow" idea. I'm either going to get sorted by the NK, or left alive if scum has me pocketed. And even then, I'm likely to get sorted by the NK at some point this game. Too many players just aren't gonna get killed.

@Those of you scumreading me for having shit reads:

Then correct my reads.

@Those of you scumreading me for appearing to have an agenda:

Probscum tbh.

@Those of you scumreading me for being scum with acryon:

I lol'd. I would actually not be surprised if acryon were scum with, for example, mastina -- tried and true strategy of "pair your scumbuddy up with town and then lynch the townie".

A50 is being less useful/good than I know him to be. Seeing that he wasn't in the game when I put the mod in my reads list should be proof enough that it was a genuine mistake. He claims he found it scummy in the game I modded, but there was no good reason to even find it scummy in that game. Giving benefit of the doubt here, but I'm just not seeing enough nuance in his posts yet to sort him differently than LUV.

Gonna go do some quick acryon and Bujaber meta and see if I can nullify some of the tells on them.

[Mathdino]

yo iconeum hit me up with a reads list

i'm pretty hard townreading beefster so i'd like to find a different push here

[Mathdino]

fair enough, do what you will

just know that beefster is probably not getting lynched today so i would hope you have other scumreads

[Mathdino]

Dino the odds of you surviving as town until lylo are near impossible. As in regardless of what people think of you or how they're reading you nobody can deny that you are an influencer and a polarizer. Therefore scum keeping you alive is a risky move as they would a) not guarantee they can manipulate you and b) can't be sure if people will sheep you or go against you with the votes.

Therefore if you somehow do end up alive at lylo you would be the lynch from my pov as the only way to explain your survival would be that you are scum.

I accept this and agree with everything in this. Like I'm shit early on but I have a track record of solving lategames when I survive the whole way. If I survive that far (or if we haven't won by then), that's likely on me for being shit.

VOTE: Paradox

Let's go here.

[Mathdino]

I mean yeah, mafia could definitely leave me alive just to auto-lynch me in LyLo, but that would be a risky play and would probably just result in me lynching them before then anyway.

So I'm satisfied with the amount of WIFOM.

Icon, hit me up with a full reads list thanks

[Mathdino]

Adding acryon to the growing list of players who won't tell me why IB is town

[Mathdino]

Objectively, yeah it was

But considering I never made indication that I wanted to wagon/lynch mastina today, I don't really see the scum benefit here

Would be much easier to suck up to me by talking about me being town than to counterwagon me on someone I don't even really support

[Mathdino]

Agree on that

Too many hypothetical scenarios about the gamestate tbh

Seems like he could convince himself to vote anyone really

Edit: the fuck? I'm talking about the worsr

[Mathdino]

I disagree that self awareness nullifies the scumminess of actions

[Mathdino]

Math, if we explained to you why your play was scummy, it would be detrimental to town, wouldn't it?
See, this is another example of lack of consistency. He expects the meta rules he puts out there to only apply to him (he can call people scummy without scumreading, he's not allowed to explain his reads on others but others should explain reads on him, etc.) It strikes me as a very un-townie way to play. I'm still not prepared to say scum, but it's just can't find justification for it as town.

Brafin, you need to step back for a second and realise that basically every interpretation you've made of my play has rested on bad assumptions or misunderstandings.

Really. Get that into your head.

No other player in this game, including the people scumreading me, is having these same issues with me that you are. The reason I stopped engaging with you is because you were impossible to deal with in that sense. I explain things to you, and you come back with the exact same misunderstanding.

I'll lay it all out for you. Again.

1. "Scummy" =/= "scum-indicative". This is the way I use the words. Get over it. Everyone has seen me use words like that before.

2. I thought your hydra's play on page 1 was scummy. I thought to myself, "huh, maybe they're deliberately trying to be scummy to get reactions". Then I thought "or maybe they're just a combination of players that's naturally scummy together". Neither of those things helps me get a read. I was nullreading you.

3. You asked me what about your play was scummy, indicating that you weren't being deliberate about it. I thought to myself, "well, I'm not actually scumreading them; to tell them how they're scummy would be giving them a road map on how to get townreads easier, or could end up modifying their play". Because I didn't know whether or not you were scum, I decided that explaining that would serve no positive purpose (other than, perhaps, getting you to townread me, which I don't really care about).

4. Later on, when I started actually scumreading you, you'll see that I explained the specific parts that were scum indicative. This had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with:
- Your early game
- The way you interact with your partner
- The words discussion that you can't seem to understand
- You getting in a prolonged fight with me

I'll leave it to you to go find the post where I actually explain why I voted you. You'll also notice that I specifically said it had nothing to do with your scummy early game (which I believe was NAI).

I always explain my scumreads. I don't explain to people how they're just generally acting scummy unless they're explicitly acting anti-town.

[Mathdino]

I can't wait for mastina to come back and post walls about how she's not this scummy as scum

Or doesn't push the most widely townread players as scum

Or how if she were scum people wouldn't be voting her at all

It's gonna be fun to watch

[Mathdino]

Brafin you're failing to understand about 4 different things about my posts. Go talk to Inferno about it. I'm back to being done with this conversation.

[Mathdino]

That was my intent

Then about 80% of his posts were about how he's tunneling me for ignoring him

[Mathdino]

Jesus fuck dude

I explain my scumreads and ask others to do the same because THAT'S GAME RELEVANT

I don't explain general scumminess because I'm not your IC and it's not my job to coach you in how to be more charismatic

If my reads are wrong, I expect people to tell me why

So what the everliving fuck is hypocritical here

And furthermore

SINCE WHEN IS ANY OF THAT A SCUMTELL

[Mathdino]

Considering I filled up 4 pages with your goddamn slot arguing over a single goddamn word

I can generally understand that your slot uses "scummy" to mean scum indicative

I'm not here to go around assuming everyone uses words the same way I do

Clearly if your intent is to use scummy to imply a scumread, I'm going to treat it as such until corrected

Because get this

My intent is to actually understand people instead of ARGUING FOR 20 PAGES

[Mathdino]

Lack of consistency isn't a scumtell, and never has been a scumtell

But by constantly accusing me of being inconsistent, you're more attacking my pride than my alignment at this point because I prefer to be right/logical as either alignment

How is doing this in any way helpful

[Mathdino]

Did I say hypocritical? No. Your posts are inconsistent.
That's not the same thing, and you know it as well as I do.

I'm inconsistent because I read the same word differently when it's said by a different person?

That's literally fucking social intelligence which you seem to have no concept of at this point

[Mathdino]

I don't give a shit if you scumread me, I just want you to stop reeling me into more bullshit 1v1s when literally everyone can see you're wrong

If you're gonna be in thread, do something useful

I'm not even pushing IB and I haven't resolidified my reads yet
Reads list coming in probably a day or two

[Mathdino]

happy moral high ground brafin

fuck this and fuck everything about that slot

i'm not even scumreading paradox

VOTE: InfernoBrafin
back to this, i'm done, you've been told by countless people how little you've done to further the gamestate

[Mathdino]

And then at the beginning of the game, you said that scummy des not mean that you are scumreading us, but you didn't want to tell us why we were scummy so we couldn't be scum changing their play to look towny?

how in the hell does this not make sense

this is perfectly logical

i'm not here to teach you to be better at this game, and i'm especially not here to teach you how to be better as scum

[Mathdino]

oh god i'm starting to actually townread marangal

fuck does this actually mean she's scum

imma just go remind myself she's capable of this as scum and stick to not locking a read on her until later

[Mathdino]

Inferno:

No. the screaming rage just completely feels fabricated. This entire response from Math feels fabricated.

What Brafin is saying is that you are inconsistent by using the term "scummy" one way and then later using it in a different way that doesn't make sense with your first way of using it. It has nothing to do wit the way we are using it. Just you. I don't understand what's hard about that statement.

VOTE: MathDino

P-edit: NO, it does not make sense, because if you are not scumreading us, why would you think that telling us how we are being scummy would help us as scum better blend in as town? See, this is where the inconsistency comes in for me, because with this, you're acting like our scummy behavior is scum indicative and you don't want us to change that, but you insist that you see scummy=/=scum indicative.

1. i have 0 track record of faking anger as scum and multiple people in this game can confirm that
probably the only time i faked emotions was when i was jester purposefully acting like i was scum

2. okay except i've been perfectly consistent about that
like i read the quotes where you claimed i was being inconsistent and i just wasn't
so

3. because i didn't have a read on you at all?
1/4 of the time, you're scum and i don't want to coach you
3/4 of the time, you're town and i don't want to interfere with how you play the game by nitpicking how you're scummy

[Mathdino]

marangal lemme talk to you about some of the slots in this game

acryon: i've developed good reasons for reads here

A50: too soon to tell, too good for me to read him right away

beefster: my read here is solid and logical

bujaber: i basically don't have a read here

mastina: too soon to tell

iconeum: do i really need to explain this read to anyone

IB: can be lynched

kthxbye: not here

marangal: i can't read D1

not_mafia: i categorically can't read

the worst: i have had great reasoning on this slot

paradox: not here

the idea that i'm basing all my reads around gut is utterly laughable

and what the fuck with speculating on mason teams what the actual fuck

[Mathdino]

shit sorry

my read on beef, based on the fact that i literally just powerlynched him as scum

is he wouldn't come into this game vaguely fencesitting on my slot

he would come up with a narrative and stick to it

either townread me to get him off his ass, or scumread me (which, let's be honest, usually gets me to townread people)

it's like his play this game is made for me in particular to get pinged on him, and i believe scum would be far more cautious given our last game together

[Mathdino]

i'm actually pretty proud of myself for predicting IB pairing me with beefster now
so that's a thing to feel good about

regardless
you're literally telling me i'm lying by telling me what my reads were at a point in time that i wasn't telling you what my reads were
you gonna stop this anytime soon?

[Mathdino]

this just in: saying "if you're scum" apparently means i'm accusing someone of being scum

got it

are we done here

[Mathdino]

i've tried to defuse/de-escalate the argument about 3 times now

i'm just done, i want that slot out of the game

bujaber does it make sense to you that both of the players in that slot are coming up with the same absolutely inane arguments against me?

like i'm not calling ALL reads on me inane/stupid; A50 and mastina and Beefster (is he on my wagon?) have all actually explained their reads, they're wrong for other reasons than "their cases are 110% trash"

i'm specifically saying that these two players have somehow independently come up with the same bullshit pushes on me, with the same accusations, and the same semantic problems with my play

i believe that makes it more likely they're in a scumslot together

[Mathdino]

Do you actually give a shit if I respond to you

Like, answer honestly

Do you really want me to keep responding here

Cuz this world would be a whole lot better if we stopped

[Mathdino]

i'm legit frustrated that my frustration apparently universally looks fake online

like i got frustrated at alisae in a scumgame of mine and that wasn't faked

because i don't ever fake frustration as scum

i get frustrated as either alignment when i think someone's being stupid

if it looks like i'm trying to defend myself against IB, i'm not

just trying to get that conversation to end already

[Mathdino]

Cool story.

I disagree with your take on Bujaber in 354. Like, I don't necessarily disagree with your ultimate read (I'm still working on that), but I disagree that he can be read on the basis that he's antagonising people, given that he's specifically NOT antagonised me and a few other players with presence.

[Mathdino]

would it help you if i actually read that

are you here yet

[Mathdino]

sup

state exactly what you're gonna do if you're wrong or y'all get lynched after my flip, mastina

i can't read you under this tunnel

[Mathdino]

I don't expect to be townread for getting pissed off. I expect that it'll at least be indicative that the person I'm engaging with is being idiotic. I'm not defending my alignment to IB, and I think you think I am. I just want that whole conversation to end.

I also don't know why you think I would go around saying "Yo I don't even fake anger as scum" to try to get townread? Like that's obviously saying "All of my anger is genuine, and I can get angry as both alignments". So is the point of 525 to just continue to mount walls on me?

and lol at another semantic debate. Those posts aren't in contradiction. But explaining that to you isn't actually gonna change your read.

Kk so IB and Carrot are definitely not letting up here -- if anyone believes any points they've made are valid enough to compel me to respond or explain perceived inconsistencies, I'm willing to. But wall-to-wall combat is clearly not helping anyone.

I'm concerned with the fact that my flip wouldn't actually change your view of the game, mastina. You know very well that any flip is critical info to analyse D1s with, but right now you're on this track of "All 3 of my scumreads are literally the scumteam, and, well, if Mathdino's town, then all my other scumreads are the scumteam I guess".

[Mathdino]

FWIW i'm still at a point where i could policy lynch half the playerlist just to get rid of this noise

i'm finally understanding why people have en masse called mastina's playstyle anti-town

she pops on for however long and is always in catchup mode

which derails the conversation onto her posts... only for her to wait to catch up and do it all again

my "can lynch" pool is not the same as my "is probably scum" pool, although there's a lot of intersection
it's a reflection of my policy bloodthirst

can lynch:
{Not_Mafia, InfernoBrafin, Carrot/Stick (NEW ADDITION), Paradox}

could be scum i guess but i need to flesh these reads out more before i'd be willing to wagon:
{acryon (I guess?), Bujaber}

deffo not lynching today regardless of my read on them unless there's something damning:
{Almost50, Marangal}

my dear town:
{Iconeum, TW, Beefster}

and yes, i'm entirely self-aware of the fact that i'm doubling down on being willing to lynch most players in this game

[Mathdino]

mastina, in not actually having played with me as town, is accusing me of inconsistency and lack of sincerity in my reads

failing to recognise that some of the things she's pointed out are actually conscious choices in how i play in order to maximise gains from talking to others (and also to be more charismatic)

i'm beginning to realise that a lot of players who are drugged up on this "YOU HAVE TO READ DEEPER" craze just auto-read or toneread that as manipulative scum

yes, this applies as either alignment, i'm not asking for townreads, i'm saying that nothing she's pointed out seems inconsistent enough to motivate me to actually change my play, my mafia philosophy, or even the wording of my posts

[Mathdino]

Easy solution here.
Carrot already provided it.

Let's wagon acryon here, MD. You already expressed you are willing to lynch there...

VOTE: acryon

I never said that? If I end up scumreading acryon, I could potentially lynch there, but right now I'm sitting at "meh, could be scum, would hammer if it came down to it". I don't trust mastina's alignment or reads enough to just follow this. A50's reads I could sheep, but I'm even less confident of his alignment, unfortunately.

I can go and do a hokey PbPA and try to force a read on acryon, since clearly standing around and waiting for towntells/scumtells to happen isn't working on him/Bujaber.

Haven't done that in a while, this might be fun actually.

[Mathdino]

If you respond to it, I promise you I will not call the act of having responded to it a scumclaim. (Though I reserve the right to call contents of the response scumclaims if the contents of the response are in fact scumclaims.)
If you don't respond to it and yet do productive stuff, I will not call the act of having not responded to it a scumclaim since you did productive stuff.

If you don't respond to it and yet you do...well basically exactly what you're doing right now?

That's the scumclaim.

great!

i choose "continue doing what i've been doing and watch mastina dig herself further into this ditch"

you at no point have talked to me as if i'm town to try to actually change my reads or my play for the better this game

that is the definition of a tunnel

hilariously, the very fact that i always talk to players as if they're town (and then talk ABOUT them as if they could be scum) is something that you've tried to use to discredit me. i do that specifically to encourage not devolving into "YOU'RE SCUM" "NO YOU ARE" arguments.

you can't explain why my IB read is wrong but you're willing to devote pages upon pages of unreadable walls trying to convince me i'm scum?

see yaaaaa

[Mathdino]

right so that entire post is summed up by

1. i'm either softclaiming PR or am too awesome to ever be lynched/wagoned (which i'm pretty sure is scum-indicative)
(i'm comfortable calling that a blatant PR softclaim because if i saw it immediately, scum fucking DEFINITELY saw it; feel free to not respond to this)

2. my plan is to improvise after you're dead

if the softclaim weren't so hilariously obvious i'd be wagoning the shit out of you just for the "I'M NEVER GETTING LYNCHED GUYS" idea, and

if that slot claims VT in the massclaim, you are to lynch on sight

regardless, i could settle for IB as a "please dear god get rid of the noise in this game"

[Mathdino]

iconeum, that was a PR softclaim

i'm gonna level with you here, i'm afraid that if we push mastina to the point where she's forced to claim (fakeclaim if scum), that confirms her as town for the day and gets me lynched

so my intuition is to not force that out of her and instead just ignore her for the time being

[Mathdino]

in fact, if scum decides to go for the "only try to shoot PRs" route, her slot will likely be sorted by the NK anyway

granted my slot gets sorted/shot if scum decide to go for the "don't shoot PRs who are being anti-town" strategy so whatever

just lynch her if she claims VT and move on imo

[Mathdino]

We're not policy lynching a PR claim D1.

Do you wanna be accountability partners for a pact that we just ignore mastina walls that have to do with me for the time being? Because it's definitely tilting my game, and I often SAY I'll stop responding and then keep responding anyway.

I did the math already, there aren't enough votes to lynch me, so I'm not scared of her today (although I think I'd be a little more scared if she started using a temporary conftown status to powerlynch me). We can do something else entirely.

Like those acryon/Bujaber reads I promised you and you haven't given me shit for not following up on >.<

[Mathdino]

There was no PR claim. Stop insinuating that.

You 'promised' me those reads? I don't even remember reading that in this clusterfuck. I read the playerlist just now and I can't even recall a single post from half those players!
Why would I even give you shit if I did remember? You're being sandwiched between a hammer and anvil.

fp'd by carrot twice or smth

On this site, unless you have your head completely lodged up your own ass, saying "I'm never getting lynched even if I mislynch 2 or 3 people in a row" is a soft PR claim. I can link you to literature on this, and I'd understand if you don't see it. Beefster actually outright said "I'm never getting lynched" once in a Newbie and was immediately outed as cop. VTs just don't say shit like that.

I just want someone to hold me accountable to talk about things other than getting into slapfights with IB and mastina tbh.

So no sell on the "completely ignore mastina and do something else" idea?

[Mathdino]

1. I'm actually in the process of casing acryon, and it's going pretty well. I'm not totally sure it's a scumcase yet, but I think it's shaping up to be a scumleancase, pending meta review and clarification of his earlier posts.

2. "Breathing room" in forum mafia is a choice. If I choose to spend all my time answering mastina's 5 billion points against me, then yeah, I have no breathing room.
I'm saying that I can just create that room for myself by ignoring all of it and doing something else. And I'm asking you to be my accountability partner in doing so.

[Mathdino]

Of course I'm not talking to my strongest scumread as if they were town, that's what scum do. I've given you plenty of what I'd do if you were town though and you continue to pretend that content is nonexistent.

This is a fundamental difference between my own and mastina's play that I think leads to most people perceiving me as having more charisma, while some people (like mastina) try to nail me on apparent inconsistency.

Just something to keep in mind.

[Mathdino]

The problem I have right now is that I find a lot of what Carrot is posting, makes sense. I don't agree about MD, but I can see scum in acryon.
And I still hate the way carrot's going on about it. Let's just say I have a problem with that big ass ego. It's anti-town because you won't create a strong town core acting like that, even if you are right.

MD, why do you need someone to hold you accountable for anything? If you are town, that should be motivation enough to do the scumhunting. Like you said, it's your own choice.

1. mastina ALWAYS makes sense. I'm sure she can give you rants herself about how she writes things that make perfect sense when she's scum, town, right, wrong, even when she's critiquing musical genres in her damn GTKAS.
It's a frustrating aspect to deal with regardless of her alignment because on one hand you're like "okay your words are all nice looking and things seem reasonable" but then on a holistic level you're like "but holy shit you're so wrong though".
Like I literally had to deal with this frustration reading OPINION ARTICLES by her that I disagreed with outside of mafia games

2. I agree that it's anti-town. See the fundamental difference in playstyle. I think acting like that makes it more of a self-centred game.

3. I'm an extravert.
Like, that's about it.
I make study groups because I like other people holding me accountable for things, lol.

Regardless, the accountability partners solution is also a way for us to not end up outing a PR claim on D1. 90% of me has wanted to vote mastina or respond in another wall over these past few pages. It helps if I know that other players explicitly would prefer I not respond.

[Mathdino]

Oh okay cool. I expected a "no comment".

VOTE: Carrot

[Mathdino]

Alright here we go.

I didn't realise acryon's ISO was so short tbh.

To be clear, none of this is required reading. It's bookkeeping for me, and performance art if you actually want to go through it. Required reading after the jump...

Spoiler: A Post by Post Lolcase With An As Of Yet Unknown Conclusion

VOTE: InfernoBrafin
Don't like Hydrae. Offer reads with no accountability because "the other head did it".

I've already explained why I'm not scumreading this. I think the tells I use to sort people work for me, so I'm not going to get bogged down in mafia theory with A50/mastina over this. I'll scumread this if/when it flips scum.

You don't understand how hydras work.

Or maybe the hydras I've played with in the past didn't understand, if that's my experience?

Appreciate the clear representation from both hydras so far though

This at the very least indicates that acryon isn't faking disliking hydrae (contrary to some views I've seen around here). NAI, but genuine.

Brafin: I find the whole "I don't like hydras" thing fishy. That seems really biased against hydras, and a great, scummy way for a non-hydra to say "He's scummy because he's not accounting for the other hydra."
Inferno, I'd like to shift our vote to acryon.

That's fair. Although if you look at some of my older games with hydra (only a couple), you'll see a similar sentiment there. I've just had bad experiences playing with hydras because they became lynchbait because the heads had conflicting opinions.

Tbh this should actually indicate that his entire entrance was NAI. His self-awareness and apparent pride in his self-awareness means that the entrance was basically automatic -- he came in and voted a hydra.
I think I could actually argue that acryon/IB aren't scum together from this. It doesn't seem like scum distancing. But other than that, still nothing on acryon's alignment.

[acronym] can legit get lynched

Yikes. I'm usually better with first impressions, but I admit I came on a little strong. Also I'm not "acronym".

Need to go check meta for conviction in acryon's early D1 games.

I take Mathdino's side on the Math v. Inferno debate. In addition to being wrong, Inferno seems to be getting frustrated very quickly. This isn't necessarily a scumtell, but it does rub me the wrong way.

Icon feels like obvtown.

Gut says Math is town.

@Beefster:

I otherwise seem to like your posts, but this ends up feeling like convenient hedging for you:
1. "Leaning scum [on Mathdino]. His posts feel kinda IIOA-ish"
2. "[Math vs. Inferno is] probably not SvS, so I'm likely wrong on at least one of them. I need to wait and see how things develop.
3. "If anything IB is the more likely scum."

So are you more or less saying here you think Mathdino is likely town?

Throwing shade at IB without taking a side... I'm honestly slightly townleaning this for the same reason I'm townleaning Beefster. It would be real easy right now for acryon to double down and be like "Yeah so the guy I'm voting is digging himself into a ditch, he's probably actually scum". TW did that. But instead he's cautioning that some of IB's behaviour isn't actually a scumtell.
So gut says town on that play, but I can try to nullify that tell as well by checking his nuance in his meta.

Gutreading me as town is a common scum play. Slight ping there.

I don't like the push on Beefster. It seems like middle-hanging fruit. Go after a good player with a scummy playstyle instead of a bad player who gets scumread by everyone. Makes you look like you're doing something. Beefster's trajectory is consistent with town there. Need to talk this over with acryon.

VOTE: Bujaber

This is a serious vote, and I think this slot should actually get lynched. It feels like he's decided to just piggy back on the hottest topic atm. Possibly to look like he's being active?

It does feel a bit like that. However, the big paragraph to me pings as town-effort. Not that quantity = town, but I feel like we'd see the effort portrayed differently if he were just trying to get credit for activity.

This is honestly just not a really strong or interesting point. It reads as someone who has knowledge of alignments.

@All

: Given that LUV is engaging with players and asking fair questions, I feel like I should be townreading him, but I'm really not. A lot of it seems like it could be scum going through the motions. Comfortable with votes on LUV if you don't like the IB push.

FWIW I get what you're saying here, but I think the posts have too much merit for me to disregard them for gut right now.

Throwing me a bone but also not adding anything to that conversation. I don't think my read on LUV was totally gut there.

But then, if you look at Iconeum's enterance and how he interacts with Beefster, it doesn't work as a TvS interaction. The back and forth is too strong for a TvS to make sense. So it'd either be TvT or SvS. And if Iconeum is obvtown, Beefster also has to be town.

This is pretty interesting because as I said I also think Icon is obtown, but I'm not sure I buy that it can't be TvS.

Okay this is really bad. Gonna round up questions on acryon's posts later on.

VOTE: Beefster

You can be town now, the worst

@Inferno: Ok, how does this vote change your perspective on that situation? Do you still think it's TvT?

Softball. Like, pushing people to update their reads is all well and good but if you're not contributing your own thoughts on things...

The worst, acryon, beef are null.

It's interesting you have the worst as null. I feel like he's been one of the most polarizing players so far this game. Are there certain posts that are making you feel one way or the other?

Also why paradox town? Gut?

A good question that would likely lead to an answer that would help the gamestate.

@acyron: I still think it could be TvT. Town has the ability to scumread other town members. That's not unheard of. I still think that the entrance exchange just wasn't was too realistic to be scum.
I'm a little confused by this question; it seems to be looking to put me in a hole that isn't there.

I was interested to see what would make you think that Icon vs. Beefster was specifically TvT and not TvS, especially since you didn't necessarily have a townread on Beefster specifically.

ok same thing as before, lol at IB not understanding the question though

Inferno:

wut
the heck
Brafin, you're gathering information on your own partner's read?
I do not agree on Beef.

Question, and this goes back to my (no pun-intended) beef with hydras. How is anyone expected to read your slot if you are offering up conflicting reads that we can't call scummy because they came from two different people?

This is mafia theory discussion. Intelligence-indicative, but not alignment-indicative.

I'm starting to get really concerned.

Why is two people having conflicting reads scummy?

That's exactly my point. Two people having conflicting reads is not scummy. If

one

person had conflicting reads, we can question that slot because that's fairly scummy. In your case, because you are two people, we can't question that, making you more or less unreadable because we don't know what your slot really believes.

A useless conversation to be having.

And trust me, I am not interested in having a discussion about hydras themselves.

But if we had a slot being played by someone with severe schizophrenia as the reason for their majorly conflicting reads, surely you could understand how a slot like that would be problematic for town?

Okay so he's self-aware that the discussion is useless, but still isn't giving much else.

This is a good point, though scum usually tries to avoid confident town reads like this for that very reason.

"Scum usually". I think it's just as likely scum recognizes Math as very "townie" and would like to kill him for towncred.

the fuck is this supposed to mean

Scum points awarded. You admit that in your experience "hydrae/hydras are lynchbait" so you

vote

them???

Subsequent votes on the hydra by BuJaber and the worst are a bit worrying, but I'll accept these were RVS votes with a grain of salt (especially the worst who switched his vote quickly. Only if the hydra actually flips scum will I have another "different" look at this switch)

Interesting. So my vote on 16 isn't accepted as RVS, but others are? I would argue mine is better, because it created more discussion and pushed us out of RVS quicker. The only purpose of RVS is to get out of RVS, so I'm not going to apologize for what I do to get us out of it.

Okay this is a pretty LAMISTy defence. I get just saying "yo it was just half RVS" but acryon's trying to take actual credit here, lol.

Again, need to metacheck for "defending oneself by claiming towncred". Usually scum-indicative but can be ego-indicative.

[reads]

I have a vested interest in this, but this readlist requires explanation. You're townreading Beefster and BuJaber, who have both gotten heat. You're scumreading half the player list with no explanation. Help me understand.

Meh.
Self-awareness is NAI. Can see anyone asking wtf was up with that reads list.

Also I'm basically down to policy lynch brafin at this point

This alone is a scumclaim from Mathdino.

Is scum!Dino this blatant about a PL, especially on someone that he would know is town?

I don't know? Is this an opinion? Or is this commenting-without-commenting?

I understand why you would lump us together to an extent, but I also think we've played pretty different games from each other, and my reason for jumping on InfernoBrafin in the first place was RVS. I stayed on because it's produced some good pressure and content I think.

This is fair, and I agree that that initial wagon (and holding course on it for a while) was pro-town.

snip

Was about to summarize saying I liked IB a good bit more after the weekend, and then was going to vote Carrot and Stick, but the worst has done the work for me.

VOTE: Carrot and Stick

Also Almost50 is town, although wrong.

This is a NAI sheep vote. You can see the trajectory lining up to vote Carrot, that's fine.

Wondering what happened to summarising liking IB more though.

@acryon - why did you comment on carrot's first readlist (the one he claims is correct up to page 3), but not the second?

Because I was quoting as I went through, and the initial one was posted for a reason. I was interested in his reasoning for that one, not his toned-down version a few posts later. His second one was a whole 15 minutes later (clearly a good chunk of those minutes spent on posts in-between), so I'm not giving them much credit for an abundance of critical analysis happening between the two.

Adding acryon to the growing list of players who won't tell me why IB is town

The thought process doesn't feel scum-motivated. 302 and 315 are prime examples of this I think. I'm not saying the slot is a firm lock for town, but I'm also not comfortable leaving my vote there given how town some of their posts have looked.

Bujaber's question here is meaningless and a bit leading. Any response is gonna be NAI.

And holy shit are the IB townreads poorly explained.

acryon's vote looks opportunistic.

I think opportunism being scummy requires some amount of trying to look like it's something it's not. I was pretty up-front in my sheeping. I suppose you're welcome to not believe that I actually felt what I felt, but calling it opportunistic when I was so open about it seems

opportunistic

.

I mean I'd agree with this if this weren't a self-defence tactic.

I need to remind myself of my rule to just ignore people's defences altogether. It's 70% of the time completely NAI.

I disagree that self awareness nullifies the scumminess of actions

To go back to the discussion earlier, I think that the self-awareness is what separates between a "scummy" action and and scummy action coming from scum, although I don't get to be the jury on myself.

More theory. Doesn't do anything tbh.

Brafin:

Acron is striking me as scum. His vote seems kind of out there and OMGUS-y. Not much explanation on the vote.

I thought I was clear on this with my sheep of the worst's post, which explained things well on a base level, but I can elaborate.

327 starts with garbage. Saying 4 of the 5 people are scummy as of post 20. This should be the first red flag.
330 I have already commented on, but has fully half the game in scum category. If this isn't building up a massive lynch pool, then I don't know what is.
335 feels like theater, as if they hadn't reviewed the posts of their slot first. Are we really believing that?
342 don't get me started on. the worst already mentioned this, but this is absurd "bow to me, your mafia king" pontificating lacking little real content for the sake of scumhunting other than to tell everyone that they should trust them because "everyone in this game sucks, but thankfully I was able to immediately adjust and I nailed it anyway".

I'll stop here, but especially if they think the overall playerbase in this game is as "sub-par" as they say, their ISO

reeks

of attempts to manipulate through appeals to authority.

I would've loved to have been the first to vote C&S, but unfortunately they were active during times when I don't play.

I mean FWIW I generally agree with this, but this does seem written in a way that absolves acryon of responsibility/accountability for this read. Like this is the kind of case where if mastina flips town, acryon can be like "Hey man she was legitimately dropping scumtells".

So that was... underwhelming.

A lot of mafia theory, a few questions here and there, and a whole lot of self-defence and towncred-claiming. There must've been like 1 or 2 points in this ISO where I felt "you know what, that's a good point" outside of defending himself.

I need clarification on a few things and a personal meta-dive to structure this read further, but for now I'll call this a definite scumlean.

@acryon:

1. Your townping on Bujaber in 142 is undeveloped. Please elaborate on this and give an updated read on Buj.

2. In 186 you claimed LUV's posts had too much merit to disregard on gut. Elaborate.

3. In 207, you said you weren't interested in having a discussion on hydrae, yet almost 50% of your game-relevant posts are about hydrae. What was your motivation in returning to that point in 200?

4. bro wtf does this mean and how does it actually relate to the conversation beefster and the worst were having:

"Scum usually". I think it's just as likely scum recognizes Math as very "townie" and would like to kill him for towncred.

5.

IS

scum!Dino blatant about policy lynches on town? You never continued that train of thought.

6. You're at the point where you're gonna have to give a full reads list. Your ISO is nearly devoid of stances on players. Here's a jumpstart:
Going through the posts in which people scumread/vote/shade you, who seems to genuinely believe you're scum, and who seems insincere in their push?
IIRC, these are:
Mathdino
Momrangal
mastina
Almost50
Beefster
Iconeum
Bujaber

[Mathdino]

Why is day 1 still not over?

Can someone answer me this?

@MD, icon, IB, mastina, TW - Most of your scumreads are active players. How have a scum team of mostly active players not managed to close this day?

This is a really good point and I'm actually strongly townreading framing recent events in this way. I say this before doing the ISO of Bujaber, but it is what it is.

Anyway, I'm still not ready for D1 to end. See a wise man once told me:

Thou shalt not lynch that which thou canst replace.

We get content from the lurkers and then come together on our lynch options. Right now I'm still in the "fucking around" portion of D1.

Also I don't think I've ever proposed a scumteam consisting of active players yet. Like, I really wanna lynch IB and mastina, but that's not me sitting here proposing "You know it really seems like IB/mastina is the scumteam working against me". That said, if IB/mastina literally IS the scumteam (with mastina going after me to keep IB alive), the reason they haven't ended the day yet is that town just hasn't given them the votes necessary to.

[Mathdino]

Yo, I didn't say I agreed with your view on everything, just that I think you made an insightful point and are likely town for it.

Like, I'm willing to let all this go and just lynch Not_Mafia or Paradox. But I'm at a point with IB and mastina where either I pinpoint scum without them (difficult with so many lurking null slots) thus forcing them to reevaluate their reads, or lynch them to kill the noise and hope for a better D2.

I don't find it normal how this day has gone, no. It's likely due to the playerlist being lynchbaity, the lurkiness, and the disparity between a lot of playstyles. I just have an internal "when I'm ready for the day to end" meter and I'm just not satisfied yet. I still believe I'm a likely NK this game due to the playerlist, so I don't want to be on a day-ending wagon until I'm satisfied.

So what are your proposals?

[Mathdino]

Iconeum, I think Bujaber's POV specifically in 573 is unlikely to be something scum comes up with.

Specifically the "you'd think if all 3 scum were active, the day would've ended already" idea, which is nuanced (shows a POV of someone who doesn't actually know what the scumteam is doing), and doesn't seem to have much scum motivation unless he's literally scum with someone likely to get lynched. But that's all pre-flip.

Basically, throwing shade onto lurkers like that just doesn't make sense to do. Not the way he did it.

Since I'm guessing he's town already, I confident I can go find other posts in his ISO that I similarly believe demonstrate nuanced thinking. Or, on the other hand, fuck me if it's just a one-time occurrence and I'll read him on other shit.

[Mathdino]

I'm entirely unsatisfied with acryon's response to me in about 5 different ways.

If anyone actually gives a shit about why, I'll explain it in full.

I'm annoyed about people writing off mastina as incredibly town by tone. You're seriously underestimating mastina's scumgame in doing that, and if and when I get NK'd (wouldn't be surprised if I was NK'd for being right) and if acryon flips town,

mastina needs to die before LyLo

. I can't emphasise that enough. She will 100% have the best argument in LyLo regardless of her alignment, and I don't want to just gamble the game on which side she's on. If you're feeling nice, let her choose the LyLo lynch.

VOTE: acryon

Next up in this game is a meta-dive to go nullify some tells and see what happens.

[Mathdino]

We're not policy lynching a PR claim D1.

I think that would be everyone. IIRC, this was supposed to be a role madness game.

LMAO

GJ beefster

BRB checking the queue

No one claim VT to disprove this, role madness games tend to have occasional VTs

[Mathdino]

AHAHAHA
Yeah this is role madness. Everyone's been crumbing PR, gg.

[Mathdino]

Your "shut up and leave me alone" take is a pretty accurate representation of my anger, yeah.

Dude, every single time I decide to ignore you out of tiredness, you bring up in EVERY SINGLE POST "oh well fuckin Dino here started to ignore us once we made a good point, how scummy is that!"

You think ALL your points are good. The points you make when i shut down on you are no better than your others. It just happens to be when i stop talking to you.

[Mathdino]

In saying "lol I predicted IB pairing me up with Beefster" I was being prideful, not trying to actually defend myself.

IB saying "yo I'm only pairing you with Beefster because you suggested it" doesn't change the fact that I predicted it, so I feel no less good about having made that prediction.

I'm not even talking about my alignment or trying to elaborately confirm or prove myself as town. I just don't care at this point.

Your points on me have been dead wrong and continuously dead wrong through the game. You seem to not care about changing them, and you also seem to be the kind of guy that doesn't take responsibility for their own bad reads. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've done the research.

"Ignoring your points" is not a scumtell.
"Ignoring a player that is locked in a tunnel" is not a scumtell.
"Interpreting the word 'scummy' in 2 different ways" is not a scumtell.
"Calling random players scummy" is not a scumtell.

Your posts (and mastina's posts) are so chock full of bad logic that it would legit be a pain to go through all of them when I could be ISOing acryon or Bujaber instead. If you hold me to the standard of responding to ALL your points, that puts me in a chokehold where I'm unable to do basically anything else with my time or my presence. Also puts the thread in a chokehold.

You need to stop this.

[Mathdino]

Depends on your definition of "scumread". A50 likes to try to call the entire scumteam, and he was very clearly pairing me with acryon initially, but then switched over to a townread that he has numerous reasons to second-guess himself on. It looks like he just doesn't think I'm a good lynch today.

That's all obviously assuming he's town, so w/e.

Beefster asking for A50's tells on mastina is pretty upsetting. I should actually ISO that slot and see if my early read holds up.

[Mathdino]

Iconeum/the worst are both town I'm pretty sure.

Wild unexplained read change on the worst's part followed by a vanity vote on the most widely townread player in the game?
Town.

I disagree with the idea that Icon is asking pointless questions or agreeing with the tone of the game. I think his presence has been distinctly pro-town (although I guess I might be biased).
At the very least not getting lynched today ever.
Townnn.

End-of-day lynch should be in:
{Not_Mafia, Paradox, IB, acryon, Kthxbye (total lack of posting is actually more concerning than active lurking here)}

If I die, consider A50 for tomorrow. I'm not townreading him yet tbh even now that he's caught up. Feels problematic.

And obviously if flip, acryon's town, and mastina utterly fails to catch scum in every way, probably scum there too.

My town is basically everyone else.

[Mathdino]

UNVOTE:
I'm happy with this

you wanna put acryon at L-1?

[Mathdino]

shit i'm sorry i forgot to actually tell you what was unsatisfying

i'll go pull up the post, get ready for a lolcase

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: why 586 was trash

Nahhh. I expect to live to see D3. I'm not getting lynched this game I can guarantee you that. I might be the nightkill, be it reputation, accuracy, or the best combo of "unlikely to be protected/watched while still being a good idea to get rid of", but my plan is to either be so right that I'm someone scum think the doc/watch will be on or so wrong that scum keep me around hoping I'll get mislynched/lead the town towards mislynches even though I know I won't be.

Ugh, this feels super town.

and this feels like acryon has literally never encountered a good scum player with a meta for being arrogant before
or that he's just making up this read

Of course, I was dissatisfied with that. Which is what continued reading was useful for and continued effort to try and sort the slots and narrow it down. (Because again, scum try to widen the lynchpool; town try to shrink it.) Given that I currently have exactly three scumreads no more no less? I'd say I was highly successful in that endeavor. I am at exactly the spot I need to be at for D1.

Agreed with the first part, but you don't see how it looks a little convenient that you posted an ambiguous list that appeared to show a large portion of the game as possibly on your scum-radar, which you could then theoretically draw from later on and claim you had an early read to that effect?

Also I'm basically down to policy lynch brafin at this point

This alone is a scumclaim from Mathdino.

Is scum!Dino this blatant about a PL, especially on someone that he would know is town?

Absolutely, yes, and it is specifically BECAUSE he knows they are town that it is so blatant. (This is a preview for the

real

reason Mathdino's policy lynch on InfernoBrafin is a scumclaim.)

Hmm ok.

see he's waffling on his read of mastina, bargaining with her scumread ("okay but look at it from MY perspective")
and now positioning himself to flatter her into lynching me instead
someone he initially was pretty comfortable with

a few things here that i'm cutting out are just defence against mastina
and since mastina's points are pretty blanketly awful i'm gonna give a bye on any defences against them

UNVOTE:
Have a hard time believing C&S is scum here after this recent flurry of posts.

this goes unexplained
acryon isn't braindead nor is he a one-liner player like not_mafia
he spends all his explanation energy on long-winded self-defence
playing softball with mastina, who is currently his greatest threat

cutting out asking iconeum for reasons because that's fair

right so that entire post is summed up by

1. i'm either softclaiming PR or am too awesome to ever be lynched/wagoned (which i'm pretty sure is scum-indicative)
(i'm comfortable calling that a blatant PR softclaim because if i saw it immediately, scum fucking DEFINITELY saw it; feel free to not respond to this)

Can we not talk about who we do or don't think is softclaiming?

random shade
i literally said the reason i'm comfortable mentioning it is because it was so insanely blatant
like, if i saw it within 2 seconds, the chance that 3 scum wouldn't notice it with 2 days to decide their kill is near zilch

It would be interesting to see you make a case on acryon, MD.

Are you incapable of making a case? And why are you asking someone who doesn't even scumread me to make a case? Sound like you just

want

him to come up with reasons to scumread me. How is that town play?

okay more random shade on a player that's bled town
i had already discussed that i'd been doing an PbPA on acryon because i hadn't actually looked into his posts past that initial townread
plus this is overdefencive; iconeum didn't explicitly say it'd be interesting to see me scumcase acryon
i can and have made towncases before

I don't like the push on Beefster. It seems like middle-hanging fruit. Go after a good player with a scummy playstyle instead of a bad player who gets scumread by everyone. Makes you look like you're doing something. Beefster's trajectory is consistent with town there. Need to talk this over with acryon.

Hold on a second Math. Surely most people would say low-hanging fruit is scummy, but now

middle

-hanging fruit is scummy? So unless people pursue the most difficult leads, it's scummy?

i disagree that low-hanging fruit is always scummy
high-hanging fruit is generally townish yes
but middle hanging fruit is the way to go when you're generally a nuanced player who doesn't constantly push for low-hanging fruit

pick a post someone makes, pick a person, and "read deeper into it" and come up with reasons to scumread them
his reaction is unfortunately deflecting back onto mafia theory instead of explaining why his beefster push was actually good in the first place

@acryon:

1. Your townping on Bujaber in 142 is undeveloped. Please elaborate on this and give an updated read on Buj.

This is gut since I've played with him recently. To be honest I still don't feel much from BuJ. No posts of his particularly strike me as scum-motivated, and gut tells me it's genuine.

this is a letdown

2. In 186 you claimed LUV's posts had too much merit to disregard on gut. Elaborate.

Obviously this was quite early on so there isn't much in general, but ]post]126[/post] and 127 seem like posts that are helpful for town. 127 specifically seemed like town-analysis.

this is a massive let-down, 127 was a mess of a post and was not actually a good point
of course since there's no explanation here other than slapping a label, i can't really engage with this

3. In 207, you said you weren't interested in having a discussion on hydrae, yet almost 50% of your game-relevant posts are about hydrae. What was your motivation in returning to that point in 200?

I returned to it because it seemed to become clear that it

was

becoming an issue. Was happy to move on from it if it didn't become an issue, but it appeared it had at that point.

okay but are we supposed to ban hydrae from this game altogether
look through his ISO and find his mentions of hydrae (which at this point in the game comprises 1/3 of his ISO)
it's not constructive, it's not helpful, it's just "SEE WHAT I DID EARLIER MAKES SENSE"

#4 was a syntax confusion i'm cutting that out
#5 was a quick clarification i'm also cutting that out

6. You're at the point where you're gonna have to give a full reads list. Your ISO is nearly devoid of stances on players. Here's a jumpstart:
Going through the posts in which people scumread/vote/shade you, who seems to genuinely believe you're scum, and who seems insincere in their push?

I certainly don't have the time to play as much as I used to, so I generally try to make a decent catch-up post and then a handful of smaller posts throughout the day, but you likely won't see paragraphs of a case from me.

Mathdino - If anything, your potential scumread of me feels like it's jumping on the train (or being forced on by Icon). Personally, I just have a connection to you because I like your playstyle. I'm not sure if that's causing me to give you a pass up until now, but it's possible.
Momrangal - Mom is a fairly null slot to me, although gun to my head I'd say sincere/Town.
C&S - Didn't like the entrance, haven't really played with the slot, but feel pretty confidently now that the slot is town.
Almost50 - Feels very obvtown. Really like his posts.
Beefster - Likely scum.
Icon - Felt like obvtown at the beginning, but when he started pushing you so hard to try and make a case on me, it really rubbed me the wrong way. I now think he's loosened up his play a bit after being widely townread. Starting to feel insincere.
BuJaber - Already touched on this a bit, but most early posts felt sincere. But this last couple pages or so have been

weird

. All of his posts on the last couple pages have been bad. Icon has already touched on this it looks like, which to me makes me think that both Icon and BuJ are likely not scum.

man, this is much worse than i expected

the mathdino read feels like he's positioning himself into redirecting the acryon wagon onto me (and mayyyybe hope that my townflip clears him of the weird associations); there was no indication of issues with me up until i literally just went through his ISO with an open mind
plus, he hasn't actually provided any evidence that my PbPA of him was insincere
i actually thought i'd end up townreading him by the end of it

C&S read is political

A50 is in no way obvtown, beefster read is still not fleshed out, his read on iconeum is paranoid and icon didn't push me AT ALL to make a case on him, and capping it off with "icon/buj is not the scumteam" is just useless

Scum

Beefster

VOTE: Beefster

like, fuck, man, i just ISO'd acryon for all mentions of "beef" and there's just no explanation for this vote/scumread at all
after i just asked him to clarify things for us

i mean now i'm second guessing myself because i'm like "would scum be THAT BAD to explain every read BESIDES the person they're voting? would scum have THAT inconsistent of a trajectory?"

and then i start thinking "what if this lynch is just veering into policy lynch territory on the basis that acryon is just being bad at this game"

but then i remember i'm perfectly okay with policy lynches that are likely to hit scum and i'm fine again

so yeah acryon is probably the right lynch

and if something feels off about the wagon, it's probably mastina's ego lol

[Mathdino]

Basically, yeah

[Mathdino]

look i'm gonna level with you

if the prevailing theory is mathdino/acryon

i lynch him (he's probscum anyway, and he's gonna have to get lynched at some point at this rate)

if he flips scum, great, at least we had a scum lynch, i'm comfortable with the fact that a few people will turn on me afterward

if he flips town, mathdino not scum with acryon, we can figure out wtf actually happened D1

Edit: i think given that not_mafia is almost certainly gonna lolhammer here when TW makes that vote

yo acryon pls claim thanks

[Mathdino]

after everything, i still believe i have a solid chance of being NK'd in either situation as of right now

my reads don't really incriminate anyone in particular

end-of-day reads list will come tho maybe that'll change

[Mathdino]

I just did, and there are a few posts that really strongly read confusion and lack of alignment knowledge. Just don't think he'd be making them as scum. Townread holds course.

I don't think the slot is contentious enough to do a full write-up but if anyone's interested in me actually potentially changing their minds, just hit me up.

Personally I was waiting on:
1. Kthx, Paradox, Assembler (probably a lost cause, someone go find out if he straight up refuses to post in his scumgames)

2. acryon to get his bearings and come back to the game actually doing things (nope)

3. Me to do a meta-case on acryon to see if I'm just flat-out wrong.

Problem is I don't really have reasonable alternatives to acryon other than straight up policy lynching. So I'm taking my sweet time on that meta and it may not happen at all; I don't think anything I find will really be enough to flip my or anyone else's read, unless I find something making him utterly obviously readable.

A50 is probably my second non-policy scumread, but that's just not something I feel like doing today.

[Mathdino]

I claim bodyguard. My alignment is sorted by the nightkill, as I've stated time and time again. I alluded to my end of day reads lost which I was gonna use to crumb my target. If anyone seriously questions this, I can go find more allusions, but I didn't breadcrumb because I literally just need to stop a kill to prove myself.

A50 is gonna fuckin love this one.

I was gonna protect Iconeum. Real nice call, acryon.
VOTE: Iconeum
Town, but not me, and I think I have more to offer town late game on account of experience and role.

[Mathdino]

If you thought I was playing totally callously, that's only because I wasn't setting up for even surviving into the late game, nor did I ever expect to get run up. Figured my best contribution could be to make sure we get a good d1 lynch and peace out.

There was a stretch where I forgot I was a bodyguard (I forget when but I'll know it when I see it) and afterwards you can see how sure I was that I would flip eventually.

[Mathdino]

Acryon, you should've claimed before using your ability. Day PRs who try to play hero are what ruin role madness games.

[Mathdino]

Screw you, I wasn't coached into anything. I basically glossed over every post you made until I decided to ISO you and come to my own conclusions.

[Mathdino]

What's basically gonna happen here is whoever isn't lynched likely dies at night anyway.

[Mathdino]

Comfortable with acryon being retribution vigged. Neither of us are flipping scum here.

Acryon, you're capable of not making impulse decisions. I also have not gotten this close to ANY lynch since hiatus. I guess my plays been fundamentally different, or this playerlist set me off, or whatever.

But we've basically wasted 2 days just like that.

Fuck gladiators in setup design tbh

[Mathdino]

You don't play hero as vig. You vig the people that are anti town that scum will never shoot themselves, and who probably get mislynched.

I can understand gladiating me and thinking I'd be up for lynch. But we have literally 5 policy lynchable people and they're NEVER getting shot at this rate. Could've vigged any number of them.

[Mathdino]

Lol'd.

My D1 basically turned into "holy shit I just need to survive tonight, get myself killed, and prove mastina and IB to be HILARIOUSLY wrong".

Add Paradox's posts to the list of "ways it was obvious that Mathdino was bodyguard" tbh. Along with me being like YES BUJABER IF I AM NOT DEAD BY LYLO YOU CAN FEEL FREE TO LYNCH ME.

I'm not giving the end of day reads list anymore because then I stand an even lesser probability of getting killed. Can probably predict the NK pretty well though.

[Mathdino]

@Icon: In a role madness game, probably everything is NAI. Hell I just got out of a game with a scum compulsive bodyguard on a townie with the ability to suicide.
As in, the scum player was forced to protect that townie every night, and couldn't perform the NK.
And the townie was able to kill themselves (in exchange for powers) and not die because they were protected.
That said, that was a completely crazy game and I don't see precedent for Gamma doing that kind of shit, so I dunno. Gladiator seems too powerful in the hands of scum, assuming 10:3.

@Bujaber: I was never gonna survive until LyLo anyway, regardless of whether I claimed. I honestly wouldn't have agreed to your deal though if I were a VT
Jeez, I spent the whole game thinking almost everyone else was a VT.

Agreed on still wanting to lynch acryon tbh.

[Mathdino]

If you think the gladiator claim is town, why would you be down with a revenge-vigshot on acryon?

YEAHHH I'LL SHOW HIM
GET VIGGED, SON

Is basically what was going on in my head. Retaliatory policy vig.

Idk, my scumread of him isn't gonna dissipate because I'm forced not to lynch him. But when it comes down to it, if you ask me to solely evaluate on setup spec, I'd say you'd need a pretty powerful town to justify having scum that completely arrests town's ability to lynch that day. Like that's an almost broken mechanic (as is gladiation in general) that is functionally equivalent, in my mind, to a scum beloved princess, or a double/triple kill.

[Mathdino]

And still wanting to lynch acryon is also a retaliatory policy lynch for the record.

I don't think, if I were less emotional rn, that I would seriously advocate for, for example, a dayvig on him.

[Mathdino]

Well, shit happens. Stuff like this is why day abilities are probably worse for town than night abilities. Night gives the ability to change up with some distance from the events of the day.

I 100% would've dayvigged IB back there on multiple occasions if I had the ability. mastina, not so much, because a townflip there would 100% get me to L-1/claim

So Icon and I both flip town, as do you probably eventually. Who's scum?

[Mathdino]

Your vote 100% makes sense from your perspective, and I didn't really expect you to hold course on the "rolling over and dying" plan.

I just want everyone to understand that if I don't get lynched here, there's basically a 0% chance I don't die at night, given that I'll be actively trying to every single night. Unless Iconeum is a significantly higher utility role than me (which I'm open to hearing), my staying alive provides

1. An extra night if we get a powerful PR claim, and/or a guaranteed night for claimed investigatives assuming scum don't have a roleblocker.

2. Good reads and activity if I actually make it through the night.

3. Peace of mind if you think Icon could legitimately be scum here? Like, it's easy to autolynch me at or before LyLo if I'm still alive because that means I'm pretty clearly not a bodyguard, but it's hard to decide what to do if Icon ends up still alive later on.

[Mathdino]

I'd actually like to advocate for lynching A50 tomorrow, who I feel has been ignored as a slot by most of the playerlist.

I'm REALLY not helping my case for "not getting myself flipped" here, but a scumread's a scumread.

[Mathdino]

God, I wanna do The Talk to Icon and explain how it's just a bad idea to lynch me in so many ways, but I'd would be and am doing the same thing as Icon here.

Gladiating a townread sucks.

I'm aware that there's a possibility of scum bodyguard, and there's a 100% chance mastina comes in here with a wall about how role =/= alignment. I get it. My argument isn't that my role clears me as town; my argument is that my role is self-resolving. Either I pick right (and I often do predict the NK pretty well) and die, or somewhere down the line a PR that can wreck scum comes up and I die. OR scum NK me to try to WIFOM the question of "DID SCUM KILL MATHDINO OR THE PERSON MATH WAS PROTECTING" which is always a fun discussion.

Point is, while I'm not confirmed town yet, I will be once I die, and if I don't die, fuck me up.

@Bujaber: I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that acryon can't be wrong on everything
His reads have been particularly self-centred this game, which I guess you could argue I'm guilty of as well, but it is what it is.

[Mathdino]

Wtf is happening

your vote is gonna stay on me and you don't have to do anything all day, basically

if you want to do something, you can pop in at random times and deliver a one-liner about why people should vote me

[Mathdino]

I believe him if only because I don't believe he straight up claims scum like that.

Like, as scum, he's more likely to get quicklynches on anyone else.

Request votecount.

[Mathdino]

You do realise I claimed bodyguard, not roleblocker, right?

Fucking lol, brafin

[Mathdino]

You got it

Just know that there's likely no other protectives

I'm open to counterclaims

[Mathdino]

MD: Can I get an updated and condensed list of your town/scum reads please? Would you lynch you over Icon?

Absolutely not. I'm trying to die at night. Discussing my reads explicitly is exactly how not to do that.

I'm willing to say that A50 should be seriously considered for a lynch tomorrow IF I END UP DYING, and mastina, Not_Mafia, Paradox, and IB can all get policy lynched whenever you like.

I would never lynch me over Icon, no. I have a high enough opinion of myself as a player that I would prefer to never ever get mislynched, and my personal wincon is to basically stay alive long enough to draw the NK in some way.

[Mathdino]

A NL is mathematically wrong especially given that Icon isn't literally conftown, tbh. Like if it's me or no lynch, I NL, obviously, but it just feels icky I guess.

A flip on someone would be really good for VCA tbh. No Lynching is either very good or very bad for town in my experience.

[Mathdino]

Okay... So apparently, I'm very prone to confirmation bias because I just looked over Mathdino as if he was town and he looks town- and mastina's case is actually a bit of a stretch (and is littered with nitpicking). I changed my mind again. Get over it.

if town thinks this ridiculous play is actually imminently lynchable then town deserves to lose this game

to be clear i don't respect this because it's defending me

in fact i don't respect the flip flopping at all

but it's not scum flip flopping

[Mathdino]

If my meta read holds any weight I'd be way more worried about Beef if he wasn't flip flopping d1

in fairness, i've seen him flip flop wildly as scum

it just has to benefit scum-him

he doesn't seem to do it just for the sake of it

[Mathdino]

Forgot about it, I'm bad at catching up lol.

So, you intended to protect Icon, and if you flipped the town should consider lynching me??
Also, if you flipped that should prove acronym is town??
I mean, a shot on ICON proves HE is town. What does that have to do with acronym? And why would you expect scum!me to be shooting Icon in particular?

1. I'm scumreading you but I didn't want to push you D1 because I wanted to give you time just in case my read was dead wrong. Plus, decent shot at being shot tonight anyway. Since I was widely scumread, unless I managed to guard the NK, prior to the gladiate I wasn't gonna die at night and could just push you tomorrow anyway.
I intended to protect Icon before I was revealed. Icon potentially getting shot has nothing to do with my scumread on you.

2. My flip doesn't say anything about acryon? acryon is more than likely town because scum gladiator essentially functions as a 1-shot governor, which is ridiculous by design standards.

3. I think you're conflating a bunch of things. I would expect scum!anyone to shoot Icon just because of the wide townread.

[Mathdino]

Syntactic issue, sorry. "if i flip AND acryons town" is what I meant there.

[Mathdino]

If she's going this far to ruin the entire day over her tunnel on 2 or 3 townies, she deserves accountability when it comes to her alignment

Her self meta is absolute shit
I believe she can be meta'd, just not on the tells she rants about

[Mathdino]

All of these combine with one final factor, an active choice to not be a spamposter commenting on literally everything. When I make posts, I attempt to optimize the signal:noise ratio. I do let myself make noise, but I absolutely don't want said noise to drown out the signal.

[Mathdino]

I mean. I'd prefer not to bog the game down in it. It's talking about me and while I do like to talk about myself, talking about myself isn't scumhunting.

[Mathdino]

I really dislike mastina

Literally said multiple times absolutely nothing is changing her read

Fuckin hell these tunnels on me are literally why I claimed

[Mathdino]

NGL I'm heavily considering taking a bullet for acryon

[Mathdino]

What?

How the hell would you have known anything about my role to claim something akin to a GUNSMITH GUILTY on me?

The fact that I played badly in one scum game after 3 of my teammates all choked does not mean that me fucking around in D1 ALWAYS MAKES ME SCUM.

[Mathdino]

I'm not taking any advice on who I'm protecting. I'm going to make whatever call that gets me killed fastest. Independently.

[Mathdino]

mastina please stop butting into 1 on 1 conversations just to tell one person the other is scum

seriously it's pissing me off

i'm going to talk to every player as if they're town, without exception

i find the alternative rude, offsetting, uncharismatic, derivative, and frankly anti-town

you gotta stop doing that shit

[Mathdino]

In This Topic: mastina ruins my ability to predict the NK by directing the scum NK

[Mathdino]

Mastina, that flowchart provided no clarity on your alignment but was an absolute treat to read.

almost all of her self meta is bullshit

i'm at this point convinced that she started doing it as town to benefit her scumgames

it's self aggrandizing nonsense and i've seen mastina scum pass over half of those checks in that flowchart in one game

hilariously, her own summary of her scumgame at the very end is a great encapsulation of this game
^and what's even worse is this is going to prompt a completely unnecessary response from her
despite the fact that no one should give a shit about any of that entire goddamn page

mastina has unconscious tells. i don't know them but i 100% know they exist.
universally ignore her self meta.

[Mathdino]

not_mafia what the fuck are you doing voting someone other than me

please actually explain this

[Mathdino]

mastina's was just well written and enjoyable to read.

if you encourage mastina again i'm labeling you as the worst of the policy lynchpool

[Mathdino]

VOTE: the worst

literally just for entertaining mastina

[Mathdino]

You got it
Just know that there's likely no other protectives
I'm open to counterclaims

I am a protective. I was planning on protecting Almost50 ORIGINALLY for like a day, but then I realized between likely scum (and thus who they'd target), Almost50's towncred having waned, and Iconeum being the closest thing this game has to a universal townread that no way in hell were the scum shooting Almost50 and if they did then it'd be +EV for the town for them to have done it so I was more than happy to protect Iconeum the ACTUAL player most likely to die.

fuuuuuck me

okay so there's basically 2 options from my perspective

1. let you die so i don't have to lynch you for being awful d1 (especially after acryon flips town)

2. we protect each other, which almost certainly guarantees our survival into lategame (but likely results in one of us getting lynched)
and we can work out a whole plan if you're actually a jailkeeper (don't fullclaim obviously)
like, you flip a coin as to whether or not you protect me

[Mathdino]

when the gladiation was placed i assumed no lynch was not an option

given that NL is an option, it's basically equivalent to a scum one-shot public dayvig

so given that NL is an option, i'm willing to relinquish the idea that acryon is town by role

[Mathdino]

mastina i'm pretty obviously talking about before you suddenly flopped your read on me solely because i ended up agreeing with your primary scumread
like jesus fuck i almost wish i was scum this game if all it takes to get me towncred is to barrel after acryon

and i never claimed to be the one able to read you, i said you are generally meta-readable
i just consider you utility lynchable, moreso when you're pushing scum agenda

[Mathdino]

How the hell would you have known anything about my role to claim something akin to a GUNSMITH GUILTY on me?

By being a fucking counterclaim. I am a protective. My protective is not such that your role and mine cannot coexist in the town, thus it's a gunsmith guilty, not a cop guilty. My current standing is that you are more likely town and thus that our roles do in fact coexist in the town, but it remains possible for you to be scum. Sounds like a gunsmith guilty on a vig to me so the comparison holds.

the fuck?

you claimed a gunsmith guilty on me before i ever claimed my role

either something's missing here or your writing is terrible this catchup

[Mathdino]

mastina please stop butting into 1 on 1 conversations just to tell one person the other is scum

I only do so when they raise a good point and yet they fail to realize it was a good point. It is a reminder that they raised the good point and that there is an obvious answer to their point.

okay screw you on this tbh

i don't need you doing this

i'm capable of coming to my own conclusions from my own conversations, quietly, without the peanut gallery cheering me onto sucker punching the guy

i am aware of when i am making good points, but i don't play all my cards upfront

when you try to predict my cards for me it's just patronising

[Mathdino]

Math can you gimme your read on mastina in like 20 words or less?

extremely lynchable, especially if 100% wrong
self-meta ironically indicates scum
shouldn't live to 3p or 5p lylo

i like policy lynches

[Mathdino]

I'm also gonna say that I am beginning to see Carrot as town. It would make more sense for that slot to keep pushing MD after that 1v1, if it's scum.
Why would a scumastina go after no lynch, if it's TOP scumread for the majority of D1 is now being gladiated?

I mean, that's a bloody strong town tell imo.

ughhhhhh

mastina is gonna write so many more words than i am on this and it's a total waste of time
basically mastina purposefully makes herself unaware of future events in the thread while catching up (a measure i consider actively anti-town, and i personally hate reading chronologically)

point is, she stopped pushing me after i started pushing acryon, not as a result of the gladiation

[Mathdino]

mastina you directed town protectives to be on me

while being a town protective who doesn't want to be on me

stop wasting posts thanks

[Mathdino]

yo MD, now that the possibilty of No Lynch is in play, you still consider lynching me?

can't say i particularly care that much either way

it's hard to undo several games' worth of mafia theory

"don't no lynch when you're in odds"

at this point i have to just hope we have a vig, which, given that there's a gladiator, seems unlikely

there'll be enough votes to no lynch without me, town can decide this one

it's getting so hard to care about this game tbh

[Mathdino]

Bodyguard is fucking useless

I'd eat a lynch over a confirmed alignment cop if NL wasn't an option

The only reason I'm a risky early lynch is that my goal is to die asap

[Mathdino]

Guys, not gonna lie, what's going on here is a classic case of town implosion

It's much more likely everyone's scumspects are just wrong

Lynch outside of BuJaber, Beefster, Iconeum, even acryon tomorrow

Otherwise we've wasted 2 full days. Let acryon eat a vig but policy/spite lynching him ruins VCA

[Mathdino]

Like, realise who's been fighting all this time

And then realise who's taken a step back that hasn't really baited any suspicion

Icon and i got put in this position by being confrontational

So did acryon, who easily could've gladiators 2 town lurkers

[Mathdino]

Bujaberscum correct play is to no lynch to not draw Icon ire

Iconscum correct play is to not AtE self vote and honestly to just call for my lynch using his towncred/fakeclaim

Acryon scum correct play was to not give us a choice that would result in no lynch

[Mathdino]

they're one of the following options:

A. Shit town
B. Shit scum
C. WIFOMing scum

(C) doesn't happen as often as you'd like, and i'm not reading that in these three

so if the choice is between assuming stupidity on the part of someone who knows everyone's alignments
or assuming stupidity on the part of MS towns that don't know shit about anything and are often wrong about 100% of the game

i will choose assuming shit town every time

[Mathdino]

Town cohesion was ripped apart the second mastina started pushing me.

Everyone else let that happen.

Suspect the people who made no effort to increase town cohesion (but also weren't the driving fucking forces in stirring up maximum chaos).

[Mathdino]

Without elaborating on speculation on reads or night actions, I would like everyone to answer:

Who is more predictable when it comes to their protection night action?
A. Mathdino
B. mastina

Whoever is more predictable should be the one that protects Iconeum. The other does their best elsewhere.

[Mathdino]

The funny thing is even mastina said that Icon and I were being largely townread, when she was largely solely responsible for me losing all my towncred.

To reiterate, the players that should be looked at tomorrow and are guilty of passively not helping town cohesion:
{Almost50, IB, Kthx, Momra, Paradox}

The players that you guys need to stop fighting because scum is just watching this town burn:
{acryon, Beefster, Bujaber, Iconeum, mastina}

A weird in-between:
{Not_Mafia, the worst}

N_M can live, his lack of tunneling me at his best opportunity was completely out of character for scum-him.
TW I'm townreading but on a very holistic big picture level, I'll admit his play has been concerning.

[Mathdino]

Your game would be improved by 20% if you just stopped scumreading Iconeum.

[Mathdino]

Guys answer the goddamn mastina/me question before you hammer a No Lynch.

Who has a more predictable night action, me or mastina?

In the case of someone hammering before mastina and I work this out, I volunteer to be on Iconeum.

[Mathdino]

SOMEONE UNVOTE OFF THE NO LYNCH WAGON, HAMMERS ARE SCUMCLAIMS

WE ARE NOT DONE WITH TODAY YET, THANK YOU

@Bujaber: The goal of a town protective is to not be super obvious as to who they're protecting, so scum can't predict what they're gonna do.
I'm asking who is less obvious who they would protect, assuming Iconeum is off the table.

[Mathdino]

cough the tournament's not over we officially can't talk about that yet

A50 the idea here is that one of me/mastina will protect iconeum, and one will protect someone else

[Mathdino]

At least IB and mastina are definitely not scum together, lol.

[Mathdino]

Your read is seriously that acryon-scum gladiated his buddy with the most widely townread player while there was an active wagon on said buddy?

And we're scum with one of the people who's been pushing acryon the hardest?

What?

and wtf gambit did icon pull lol

[Mathdino]

I've thought about it, and I think it's mechanically better to do it this way.

I am bodyguarding Iconeum tonight.

mastina can go elsewhere.

I'm not wading through the past few pages to argue with mastina. I [*vomits*] trust (AGHHH) Not_Mafia on this acryon read. Don't lynch him tomorrow IMO.

I was gonna say that by PoE I was starting to get seriously paranoid of Iconeum but if we're no lynching anyway, fuck it, we'll do this.

Your lynchpool shakes out to be (removing Kthx)
{Carrot, IB, A50, Marangal}
If you lynch outside of this group I'm going to be extremely sad in the dead thread, and may start repeatedly naked quoting posts that I think are obvtown.

[Mathdino]

Wait, I read 942 in full and none of it seems particularly supertown. I'm pretty sure mastina is just irrationally calling it town because he agrees with her.

Like I fundamentally disagree with the use of a wall to make the simple premise of "acryon did an anti-town thing and therefore is scum, because I would do this anti-town thing as scum". Like, if I were scum in acryon's position, I would 100% poll the town on that choice, and just pick either 2 townies that town wanted to lynch, or 2 lurkers (and lurkerlynches happen a lot less than mastina makes it out to be, given that she was trying to strongarm a lynch on the most active player in the game).

Kthx back in the lynchpool.

I agree that Iconeum would be good for things like masonisers, vendors, etc.

[Mathdino]

Do I really need to explain what most likely happened
Mod confirmed he got my night action
Scum is in people who set me up by not lynching me and saying I should be lynched if not confirmed

[Mathdino]

He crumbled icon right before nightfall
Of course he targeted icon
He doesn't know how to use PRs so he just tried to save himself over getting a clear (ironic lol)

[Mathdino]

I mean was anyone assuming a role other than what she's clearly softing

[Mathdino]

What the fuck I left for 4 hours how did mastina blow up the thread

[Mathdino]

There's no way you're getting me to lynch anyone on my town implosion list today

VOTE: Almost50
This isn't town A50

[Mathdino]

Not_Mafia switch feels icky from my knowledge of Not_Mafia scum meta

[Mathdino]

You still need to explain how IB isn't on there and why Acrayon is

don't need to explain shit

IB backed off of me into the end of the day but still let the chaos happen

acryon was a massive and personal element to the chaos