Mini 1993 - Earthbound Mafia: Giygas' Curse - GAME OVER

[acryon]

VOTE: InfernoBrafin

Don't like Hydrae. Offer reads with no accountability because "the other head did it".

[acryon]

VOTE: InfernoBrafin

Don't like Hydrae. Offer reads with no accountability because "the other head did it".

VOTE: acryon
You don't understand how hydras work.

-Assembler

Or maybe the hydras I've played with in the past didn't understand, if that's my experience?

Appreciate the clear representation from both hydras so far though

[acryon]

Brafin: I find the whole "I don't like hydras" thing fishy. That seems really biased against hydras, and a great, scummy way for a non-hydra to say "He's scummy because he's not accounting for the other hydra."
Inferno, I'd like to shift our vote to acryon.

That's fair. Although if you look at some of my older games with hydra (only a couple), you'll see a similar sentiment there. I've just had bad experiences playing with hydras because they became lynchbait because the heads had conflicting opinions.

[acryon]

Edit: Long time no see Marangal, acryon
I don't think I've ever played on the same team as either of you?

Hey there Dino I think you are correct on that.

Alllssoooo

Real talk I am already not a fan of acronym.

That slot can legit get lynched

Yikes. I'm usually better with first impressions, but I admit I came on a little strong. Also I'm not "acronym".

I take Mathdino's side on the Math v. Inferno debate. In addition to being wrong, Inferno seems to be getting frustrated very quickly. This isn't necessarily a scumtell, but it does rub me the wrong way.

Icon feels like obvtown.

Gut says Math is town.

@Beefster:

I otherwise seem to like your posts, but this ends up feeling like convenient hedging for you:
1. "Leaning scum [on Mathdino]. His posts feel kinda IIOA-ish"
2. "[Math vs. Inferno is] probably not SvS, so I'm likely wrong on at least one of them. I need to wait and see how things develop.
3. "If anything IB is the more likely scum."

So are you more or less saying here you think Mathdino is likely town?

[acryon]

VOTE: Bujaber

This is a serious vote, and I think this slot should actually get lynched. It feels like he's decided to just piggy back on the hottest topic atm. Possibly to look like he's being active?

It does feel a bit like that. However, the big paragraph to me pings as town-effort. Not that quantity = town, but I feel like we'd see the effort portrayed differently if he were just trying to get credit for activity.

[acryon]

@All

: Given that LUV is engaging with players and asking fair questions, I feel like I should be townreading him, but I'm really not. A lot of it seems like it could be scum going through the motions. Comfortable with votes on LUV if you don't like the IB push.

FWIW I get what you're saying here, but I think the posts have too much merit for me to disregard them for gut right now.

Wel, Iconeum is obvtown imo because his reactions and conversing does not feel fabricated at all. His responses don't ever seem forced, and he's doing a good job with his reading, too good for it too be scum.
But then, if you look at Iconeum's enterance and how he interacts with Beefster, it doesn't work as a TvS interaction. The back and forth is too strong for a TvS to make sense. So it'd either be TvT or SvS. And if Iconeum is obvtown, Beefster also has to be town.

Do you have any other thoughts on my reads?

This is pretty interesting because as I said I also think Icon is obtown, but I'm not sure I buy that it can't be TvS.

VOTE: Beefster

You can be town now, the worst

@Inferno: Ok, how does this vote change your perspective on that situation? Do you still think it's TvT?

Yeah tbh I'm nervous Inferno feels alignment informed. It's like he's trying to assign weak reasoning to why the obvious townreads are town and doesn't wanna focus on anyone else.

I really like this. I think my vote is in the right place.

@all: Who has played with the worst before? I need a sounding board to read him better.

Okay right now I'm feeling IB, mom, one of {sing, LUV, kthx, whoever marshy is supposed to be, alban} as scum.

The worst, acryon, beef are null.

Math, icon, paradox town.
.

It's interesting you have the worst as null. I feel like he's been one of the most polarizing players so far this game. Are there certain posts that are making you feel one way or the other?

Also why paradox town? Gut?

[acryon]

Inferno:

I prefer to not answer that question at this time.

Wut
Why are you not answering, Iconeum?

@acyron: I still think it could be TvT. Town has the ability to scumread other town members. That's not unheard of. I still think that the entrance exchange just wasn't was too realistic to be scum.
I'm a little confused by this question; it seems to be looking to put me in a hole that isn't there.

I was interested to see what would make you think that Icon vs. Beefster was specifically TvT and not TvS, especially since you didn't necessarily have a townread on Beefster specifically.

Inferno:

wut
the heck
Brafin, you're gathering information on your own partner's read?
I do not agree on Beef.

Question, and this goes back to my (no pun-intended) beef with hydras. How is anyone expected to read your slot if you are offering up conflicting reads that we can't call scummy because they came from two different people?

[acryon]

Why is two people having conflicting reads scummy?

That's exactly my point. Two people having conflicting reads is not scummy. If

one

person had conflicting reads, we can question that slot because that's fairly scummy. In your case, because you are two people, we can't question that, making you more or less unreadable because we don't know what your slot really believes.

[acryon]

And trust me, I am not interested in having a discussion about hydras themselves.

But if we had a slot being played by someone with severe schizophrenia as the reason for their majorly conflicting reads, surely you could understand how a slot like that would be problematic for town?

[acryon]

@Mod

V/LA until Monday morning CST.

[acryon]

Mathdino is town. I will literally quit mafiascum if math is scum here.
Effortpost tommorrow, too tired today.

I MISSED THIS
It feels like the probability of town saying this so confidently is pretty low. Other than that though I like Paradox so treat this as a FOS

This is a good point, though scum usually tries to avoid confident town reads like this for that very reason.

"Scum usually". I think it's just as likely scum recognizes Math as very "townie" and would like to kill him for towncred.

I've just had bad experiences playing with hydras because they became lynchbait because the heads had conflicting opinions.

Scum points awarded. You admit that in your experience "hydrae/hydras are lynchbait" so you

vote

them???

Subsequent votes on the hydra by BuJaber and the worst are a bit worrying, but I'll accept these were RVS votes with a grain of salt (especially the worst who switched his vote quickly. Only if the hydra actually flips scum will I have another "different" look at this switch)

Interesting. So my vote on 16 isn't accepted as RVS, but others are? I would argue mine is better, because it created more discussion and pushed us out of RVS quicker. The only purpose of RVS is to get out of RVS, so I'm not going to apologize for what I do to get us out of it.

BuJaber
Beefster

The Worst

Iconeum
alban
Kthxbye

InfernoBrafin
Momrangal
TheGoldenParadox
Lil Uzi Vert
Mathdino
acryon

I think I'm somewhere around here as of bottom of 3.

I have a vested interest in this, but this readlist requires explanation. You're townreading Beefster and BuJaber, who have both gotten heat. You're scumreading half the player list with no explanation. Help me understand.

Also I'm basically down to policy lynch brafin at this point

This alone is a scumclaim from Mathdino.

Is scum!Dino this blatant about a PL, especially on someone that he would know is town?

The reason I'd finger acryon and MathDino specifically is a combination of a few things.
-Slightly Burden of Proficiency, in that while I don't have the highest expectations of BuJaber and certainly have low ones of the worst I hold acryon and MathDino to a higher standard.
-The reasons stated for staying on the wagon/joining in the first place. I vaguely buy The Worst, as town who has a sub-par playstyle (no offense meant but it's literally in your name that you're the worst ), believes what he does and would join.
BuJaber in his push feels like wrong town in that I can understand why he has gone where he has but I don't think his vote is right.

Yet with acryon and Mathdino, that's absent.
For those two, their reasons for being on the wagon are questionable, at best. They don't resonate with me at all.

And when you pair that with the first, that amplifies things.
NOT ONLY do I expect them to have a higher standard of play, BUT ALSO they have less reasons than the lower-standard-of-play players for staying on that wagon. It's a double-whammy of reasons why they're suspicious-as-fuck.

I understand why you would lump us together to an extent, but I also think we've played pretty different games from each other, and my reason for jumping on InfernoBrafin in the first place was RVS. I stayed on because it's produced some good pressure and content I think.

Just like quickly caught up. Still processing everything a little but gut says
VOTE: Carrot and Stick

Replacing in like 9-10 days out from deadline, attempting to sweepingly discredit nearly the entire player list for being "morons" then War and Peace-casing the fuck out of the player who has BY FAR been the most proactive pre-replacements is nuts.

This feels like a ploy to win towncred/town leader position and not an active scumhunt.

Just need to decide for myself whether this play is too poor for scum!C&S honestly


P.S. my duck cuz is reading town to me. Still liking inferno less but this slot is more nullish/nulltown I think.

Was about to summarize saying I liked IB a good bit more after the weekend, and then was going to vote Carrot and Stick, but the worst has done the work for me.

VOTE: Carrot and Stick

Also Almost50 is town, although wrong.

[acryon]

@acryon - why did you comment on carrot's first readlist (the one he claims is correct up to page 3), but not the second?

Because I was quoting as I went through, and the initial one was posted for a reason. I was interested in his reasoning for that one, not his toned-down version a few posts later. His second one was a whole 15 minutes later (clearly a good chunk of those minutes spent on posts in-between), so I'm not giving them much credit for an abundance of critical analysis happening between the two.

Adding acryon to the growing list of players who won't tell me why IB is town

The thought process doesn't feel scum-motivated. 302 and 315 are prime examples of this I think. I'm not saying the slot is a firm lock for town, but I'm also not comfortable leaving my vote there given how town some of their posts have looked.

[acryon]

acryon's vote looks opportunistic.

I think opportunism being scummy requires some amount of trying to look like it's something it's not. I was pretty up-front in my sheeping. I suppose you're welcome to not believe that I actually felt what I felt, but calling it opportunistic when I was so open about it seems

opportunistic

.

[acryon]

I disagree that self awareness nullifies the scumminess of actions

To go back to the discussion earlier, I think that the self-awareness is what separates between a "scummy" action and and scummy action coming from scum, although I don't get to be the jury on myself.

Brafin:

Acron is striking me as scum. His vote seems kind of out there and OMGUS-y. Not much explanation on the vote.

I thought I was clear on this with my sheep of the worst's post, which explained things well on a base level, but I can elaborate.

327 starts with garbage. Saying 4 of the 5 people are scummy as of post 20. This should be the first red flag.
330 I have already commented on, but has fully half the game in scum category. If this isn't building up a massive lynch pool, then I don't know what is.
335 feels like theater, as if they hadn't reviewed the posts of their slot first. Are we really believing that?
342 don't get me started on. the worst already mentioned this, but this is absurd "bow to me, your mafia king" pontificating lacking little real content for the sake of scumhunting other than to tell everyone that they should trust them because "everyone in this game sucks, but thankfully I was able to immediately adjust and I nailed it anyway".

I'll stop here, but especially if they think the overall playerbase in this game is as "sub-par" as they say, their ISO

reeks

of attempts to manipulate through appeals to authority.

[acryon]

I would've loved to have been the first to vote C&S, but unfortunately they were active during times when I don't play.

[acryon]

because she's already set herself up with "Assembler pulled me in at the wrong time, I suck D1" and is likely to default to "WOE IS ME MY READS SUCK" after my flip.

Nahhh. I expect to live to see D3. I'm not getting lynched this game I can guarantee you that. I might be the nightkill, be it reputation, accuracy, or the best combo of "unlikely to be protected/watched while still being a good idea to get rid of", but my plan is to either be so right that I'm someone scum think the doc/watch will be on or so wrong that scum keep me around hoping I'll get mislynched/lead the town towards mislynches even though I know I won't be.

Ugh, this feels super town.

Of course, I was dissatisfied with that. Which is what continued reading was useful for and continued effort to try and sort the slots and narrow it down. (Because again, scum try to widen the lynchpool; town try to shrink it.) Given that I currently have exactly three scumreads no more no less? I'd say I was highly successful in that endeavor. I am at exactly the spot I need to be at for D1.

Agreed with the first part, but you don't see how it looks a little convenient that you posted an ambiguous list that appeared to show a large portion of the game as possibly on your scum-radar, which you could then theoretically draw from later on and claim you had an early read to that effect?

Also I'm basically down to policy lynch brafin at this point

This alone is a scumclaim from Mathdino.

Is scum!Dino this blatant about a PL, especially on someone that he would know is town?

Absolutely, yes, and it is specifically BECAUSE he knows they are town that it is so blatant. (This is a preview for the

real

reason Mathdino's policy lynch on InfernoBrafin is a scumclaim.)

Hmm ok.

my reason for jumping on InfernoBrafin in the first place was RVS. I stayed on because it's produced some good pressure and content I think.

Well aside from your RVS vote being a scum-RVS vote, I don't dispute that it was an RVS vote. (It WAS an RVS vote, it's just that it was an RVS vote which is a scum-RVS-vote rather than a town-RVS-vote.) It's the staying on which is the real problem though because "it produced good pressure and content" != "InfernoBrafin is scum".

In fact, quite the opposite. Stating you stayed on because it produced good pressure and content is giving you an out: if InfernoBrafin was mislynched with you on the wagon, you could say "I didn't scumread InfernoBrafin incorrectly, it was a pressure vote for content!". Now, pray tell, which alignment is motivated to act in that way?

Are you of the opinion that pressure does not help mature everyone's reads but causing players to respond?

my reason for jumping on InfernoBrafin in the first place was RVS. I stayed on because it's produced some good pressure and content I think.

Well aside from your RVS vote being a scum-RVS vote, I don't dispute that it was an RVS vote. (It WAS an RVS vote, it's just that it was an RVS vote which is a scum-RVS-vote rather than a town-RVS-vote.) It's the staying on which is the real problem though because "it produced good pressure and content" != "InfernoBrafin is scum".

In fact, quite the opposite. Stating you stayed on because it produced good pressure and content is giving you an out: if InfernoBrafin was mislynched with you on the wagon, you could say "I didn't scumread InfernoBrafin incorrectly, it was a pressure vote for content!". Now, pray tell, which alignment is motivated to act in that way?

The word I was looking for here was "accountability".

acryon stating he kept the vote on because "it produced good pressure and content" is a way of leaving himself with no accountability for the vote on a player which we undoubtedly will learn later in the game is town.

To give a counterexample: I am incredibly accountable for my Mathdino and acryon scumreads (I'd lump Momrangal in there but while I've voted Mathdino and acryon I haven't voted Momrangal so she's not as strong an example).
I have stated my reasons for voting there, I have indicated strongly my scumreads, and if these prove incorrect, I hold responsibility for them having been incorrect. I've been rather unambiguous about this.

Instead of stating that he held InfernoBrafin to be scum (something he'd be held accountable for), he is denying accountability by stating it was a pressure vote producing content.

Which alignment, I ask, has a stronger motivation for this?

I would hope no one is putting too much weight on the reasons people pushed players on D1, which scum can generally play with their eyes closed. I think your points ring very true later in the game especially, but I think putting such an emphasis on accountability D1 is loose.

327 starts with garbage. Saying 4 of the 5 people are scummy as of post 20. This should be the first red flag.

I'm not going to requote myself for why that's incorrect, but I have a DIFFERENT reason for quoting this.

What makes you point out my list, and yet...

Could be scum, wouldn't be surprised: {Bujaber, LUV}
Would lynch: {Paradox, IB, N_M}

...Ignore this from Mathdino?

This is a false equivalency. [My interpretation of your post was that] you were saying 3/4 of the 5 people who had currently posted are likely scum. Mathdino is posting much later on in the game and simply offering reads on 5 players. Surely you see the difference here.

Acryon is treating my readslist in 330 as if it were the final product, when it was the first prototype and one I self-confessed in multiple ways was flawed and I knew it to be flawed. So I worked on fixing it. He's acting as if I didn't.

Except the problem is you posted it. Final product or not, this could be drawn upon later in the game as "some initial gut scum-reads" that you build upon as needed.

I would've loved to have been the first to vote C&S, but unfortunately they were active during times when I don't play.

Oh?

acryon's vote looks opportunistic.

I think opportunism being scummy requires some amount of trying to look like it's something it's not. I was pretty up-front in my sheeping. I suppose you're welcome to not believe that I actually felt what I felt, but calling it opportunistic when I was so open about it seems

opportunistic

.

I'd love to hear your explanation for how these two stances aren't mutually exclusive with one another.

I'm not sure how you see these as opportunistic, unless you believe I'm lying about IRL availability, which I take a very hardline approach on and view as unethical (which I suppose you can separately disbelieve). If I'm scum, I will gladly lie about whatever I need to in-game, but lying outside of game crosses a line IMO.

UNVOTE:
Have a hard time believing C&S is scum here after this recent flurry of posts.

Easy solution here.
Carrot already provided it.

Let's wagon acryon here, MD. You already expressed you are willing to lynch there...

VOTE: acryon

Care you provide your reasons here?

right so that entire post is summed up by

1. i'm either softclaiming PR or am too awesome to ever be lynched/wagoned (which i'm pretty sure is scum-indicative)
(i'm comfortable calling that a blatant PR softclaim because if i saw it immediately, scum fucking DEFINITELY saw it; feel free to not respond to this)

Can we not talk about who we do or don't think is softclaiming?

It would be interesting to see you make a case on acryon, MD.

Are you incapable of making a case? And why are you asking someone who doesn't even scumread me to make a case? Sound like you just

want

him to come up with reasons to scumread me. How is that town play?

I don't like the push on Beefster. It seems like middle-hanging fruit. Go after a good player with a scummy playstyle instead of a bad player who gets scumread by everyone. Makes you look like you're doing something. Beefster's trajectory is consistent with town there. Need to talk this over with acryon.

Hold on a second Math. Surely most people would say low-hanging fruit is scummy, but now

middle

-hanging fruit is scummy? So unless people pursue the most difficult leads, it's scummy?

@acryon:

1. Your townping on Bujaber in 142 is undeveloped. Please elaborate on this and give an updated read on Buj.

This is gut since I've played with him recently. To be honest I still don't feel much from BuJ. No posts of his particularly strike me as scum-motivated, and gut tells me it's genuine.

2. In 186 you claimed LUV's posts had too much merit to disregard on gut. Elaborate.

Obviously this was quite early on so there isn't much in general, but ]post]126[/post] and 127 seem like posts that are helpful for town. 127 specifically seemed like town-analysis.

3. In 207, you said you weren't interested in having a discussion on hydrae, yet almost 50% of your game-relevant posts are about hydrae. What was your motivation in returning to that point in 200?

I returned to it because it seemed to become clear that it

was

becoming an issue. Was happy to move on from it if it didn't become an issue, but it appeared it had at that point.

4. bro wtf does this mean and how does it actually relate to the conversation beefster and the worst were having:

"Scum usually". I think it's just as likely scum recognizes Math as very "townie" and would like to kill him for towncred.

It's an attack on any argument using the phrase "scum usually".

5.

IS

scum!Dino blatant about policy lynches on town? You never continued that train of thought.

That was a question to C&S, who seemed to think they believed it from you. I thought it was clear from the tone that I didn't believe that to be the case.

6. You're at the point where you're gonna have to give a full reads list. Your ISO is nearly devoid of stances on players. Here's a jumpstart:
Going through the posts in which people scumread/vote/shade you, who seems to genuinely believe you're scum, and who seems insincere in their push?
IIRC, these are:
Mathdino
Momrangal
mastina
Almost50
Beefster
Iconeum
Bujaber

I certainly don't have the time to play as much as I used to, so I generally try to make a decent catch-up post and then a handful of smaller posts throughout the day, but you likely won't see paragraphs of a case from me.

Mathdino - If anything, your potential scumread of me feels like it's jumping on the train (or being forced on by Icon). Personally, I just have a connection to you because I like your playstyle. I'm not sure if that's causing me to give you a pass up until now, but it's possible.
Momrangal - Mom is a fairly null slot to me, although gun to my head I'd say sincere/Town.
C&S - Didn't like the entrance, haven't really played with the slot, but feel pretty confidently now that the slot is town.
Almost50 - Feels very obvtown. Really like his posts.
Beefster - Likely scum.
Icon - Felt like obvtown at the beginning, but when he started pushing you so hard to try and make a case on me, it really rubbed me the wrong way. I now think he's loosened up his play a bit after being widely townread. Starting to feel insincere.
BuJaber - Already touched on this a bit, but most early posts felt sincere. But this last couple pages or so have been

weird

. All of his posts on the last couple pages have been bad. Icon has already touched on this it looks like, which to me makes me think that both Icon and BuJ are likely not scum.

For full-disclosure, here is a full list:

Town

Almost50
the worst
Carrot & Stick

Lean-town

Not_Mafia
InfernoBrafin (James Brafin + Inferno390)
Momrangal

Null

Kthxbye
Mathdino

Lean-scum

TheGoldenParadox
Iconeum
BuJaber

Scum

Beefster

VOTE: Beefster

[acryon]

pedit - @acryon: you mean you don't see me and icon as scum together? Because you put both of us as scumleans.
FWIW if I do base my opinion on our previous game together then you are probably town. You were confused and unsure how to read me there too. I don't know if you'd imitate that to look like town again here though. I feel like the normal approach for scum!acryon here would be to not bring up the fact he has trouble reading me, but if he's trying to get me to town read him he might.

Well I think you are both possible scum independently right now because I don't have a flip to say one way or the other. If one of you flips scum, then the other one would move to a town-lean.

[acryon]

For the record Almost50, it has not escaped my notice that you haven't engaged my posts.

I've learned the hard way that once you're on a roll there's no changing your mind about it. I don't have the time or the energy to go back on forth with you on your reads.

I'd be content with an acryon lynch today and we can wait for the night action to give us more clues. acryon happens to be my top SR and I see that we agree on that, so that's fair and I don't feel motivated to consume much effort elsewhere on D1 tbh.

Seems like the only issue you've had with me is 16, which you seem to have held onto. We're both town. Look somewhere else.

[acryon]

For the record Almost50, it has not escaped my notice that you haven't engaged my posts.

I've learned the hard way that once you're on a roll there's no changing your mind about it. I don't have the time or the energy to go back on forth with you on your reads.

I'd be content with an acryon lynch today and we can wait for the night action to give us more clues. acryon happens to be my top SR and I see that we agree on that, so that's fair and I don't feel motivated to consume much effort elsewhere on D1 tbh.

Seems like the only issue you've had with me is 16, which you seem to have held onto. We're both town. Look somewhere else.

Or if you're town he's scum.
In fact if you're town it makes a lot of sense that he'd be scum.

Who else apart from you would be relatively easy to lynch that almost50 could vote for without putting much effort into explaining why?

The problem is apart from his willingness to vote me, I really like the rest of his posts. He genuinely seems to be trying to figure out the game. I'm not sure why there are multiple people that are just willing to vote me without much of a reason it seems. I have never once considered that I'd be lynchbait in a game, but this day one has been weird in that it seems to have made me lynchbait.

[acryon]

Does that include LUV's posts?

Also what about his inconsistency with dino?
Dino goes from a townread to a scumread (even though he doesn't say it explicitly) because of just one thing he did? One which doesn't even seem that scummy. And then he's just "willing to let dino live"?

While we're talking about him is it normal for almost50 to quote and respond to his own question? It pinged me the first time but I didn't want to form an opinion on just that and I've since focused on other slots but reading his ISO again now I noticed it again.

Yes. I liked LUV for the most part, although there wasn't much there.

FWIW, I don't think

anyone

knows how to play Dino right now. If you look at how people are handling him, everyone is in a pretty weird place I think. Even personally, I had him as a strong town-read but he's moved firmly to the middle for me.

I'm not sure what to make of that response to his own question. Maybe just not paying total attention, although that's likely NAI.

VOTE: Iconeum

If this wagon will get more traction than Beefster, I'm happy to vote Icon.

[acryon]

I agree with that, I think my natural bias against authoritarian figures reacted poorly to C&S' opening. I don't feel comfortable sorting Math or C&S today either but I think maybe both town maybe?

Why does it need more traction?

Because at this point in the day, I don't want my vote sitting on a futile wagon, especially when my pull is so low.

[acryon]

This is such a frustrating game. Effort is NAI, yet it's apparent that's what I'm being nailed on, and I wouldn't have signed up for this game if I knew that would be an issue (it hasn't in my previous mini's).

When I don't have a lot of time for a game, gut is going to play a larger role than other times.

I am Captain Strong, town 1-shot gladiator.

Gladiate: MathDino and Iconeum

Dino because I don't think town!Dino gives into peer pressure and builds this bad case. Iconeum because I think he is scum that got wind of people townreading him and decided he could ride on that, which shows his clear change in play from the early part of the day to the later part.

[acryon]

Does this lock voting to Math/Ico only or can you still be voted acryon?

This locks it to just Math/Ico.

[acryon]

Really sucks that I had to use this for self-preservation. Frustrating game overall.

To clarify on the PR, I have the ability of

Road Block

which allows me to block off 2 players and force them to duel, making them the only option for the day's lynch.

[acryon]

For full-disclosure, here is a full list:
Town
Almost50
the worst
Carrot & Stick

Lean-town
Not_Mafia
InfernoBrafin (James Brafin + Inferno390)
Momrangal

Null
Kthxbye
Mathdino

Lean-scum
TheGoldenParadox
Iconeum
BuJaber

Scum
Beefster

Can you talk me through how you got from here to selecting these two players? Do you think they're scum together?

Overall, I wanted to pick players I was scumreading that had a smaller chance of typically being lynched, playing it similarly to how I would play a vig. I think if Beefster or Bu specifically are scum, town will get them soon enough.

Math had been quickly moving moving down the spectrum for me, as I mentioned. To be completely honest, part of the reason I selected him is because I am frustrated with his read progression on me, but ultimately I can't see town!Dino allowing himself to be coached into the crappy dive he did on me.

I think it's very possible they are a team together, especially considering how Icon seemed to be coaching Math toward me, which makes sense given the lack of day-talk.

[acryon]

Screw you, I wasn't coached into anything. I basically glossed over every post you made until I decided to ISO you and come to my own conclusions.

Didn't feel like that.

And I know I probably played this wrong. I've literally never even gotten close to being lynched prior to day 3 in a game, so this has been very annoying to me. Although I get it's likely my fault for not being able to contribute as much.

[acryon]

On another note, a town player would use this ability to get himself out of trouble, AND force a duel between his own/majority scumreads.
This feels very panicky and def not pro-town.

Why would I force it between majority scumreads? Never played gladiator before, but like I said I looked at it how I would look at a vig. As a vig, I would shoot people I scumread that I think the town would have trouble ever lynching.

Willing to admit I played it wrong, but that made sense to me.

[acryon]

How do you see yourself progressing the game on D2, now that you've certified a D1 town lynch?

1) I'm not convinced I have certified a D1 town lynch.
2) I'm hoping we get some information from the flip plus NK.

Comfortable with acryon being retribution vigged. Neither of us are flipping scum here.

Acryon, you're capable of not making impulse decisions. I also have not gotten this close to ANY lynch since hiatus. I guess my plays been fundamentally different, or this playerlist set me off, or whatever.

But we've basically wasted 2 days just like that.

You and Icon seemed convinced we need to waste 2 days here. If you believe I've wasted/ruined today (you clearly do), that doesn't mean we have to do the same tomorrow.

You don't play hero as vig. You vig the people that are anti town that scum will never shoot themselves, and who probably get mislynched.

I can understand gladiating me and thinking I'd be up for lynch. But we have literally 5 policy lynchable people and they're NEVER getting shot at this rate. Could've vigged any number of them.

Ok, fair enough. Like I said, willing to admit I played it wrong. Never played as gladiator before, and only actually ever played vig IRL.

[acryon]

I think you missed a fairly important page Golden...

[acryon]

lol @ golden, nice skimming.

acryon, what information do you hope to get from my lynch?

What information do we hope to get from any lynch? Ideally you'll flip scum. If not, we still get information based on how people interacted with you.

[acryon]

FWIW, I also think my read on you wouldn't have pushed me to Gladiate you if I weren't feeling so frustrated. So apologies for that

[acryon]

Well, shit happens. Stuff like this is why day abilities are probably worse for town than night abilities. Night gives the ability to change up with some distance from the events of the day.

I 100% would've dayvigged IB back there on multiple occasions if I had the ability. mastina, not so much, because a townflip there would 100% get me to L-1/claim

So Icon and I both flip town, as do you probably eventually. Who's scum?

IF both you and Icon flip town, which does feel like a pretty big if to me, then I think Beefster is scum, as well as potentially BuJ. Golden actually feels

more

town to me after that last post, because I can't imagine scum paying that little attention, although I suppose anything is possible. Just based on PoE at that point, I could then see someone like Momrangal as a dark horse for scum.

[acryon]

I haven't like LUV anyway.
I am even more sure that at least one lurker is scum now after these claims. It explains the weird trajectory of the day. You leave town to their own devices enough and everyone becomes shady.

Icon was widely townread because he is not a danger to scum. Ie he is scum. This is how my brain is solving this little puzzle.

Also because if acryon is indeed town then he can't be completely wrong on everything.

I never actually asked though.. acryon beef and I are you scumreads but do you think we're a team? Because that's crazy how does your brain even rationalize it.

A chunk of my slight scumread on you comes from PoE and my overall inability to read you super well. I think it is

possible

you and Beef are scum together, although unlikely.

[acryon]

@Bujaber: I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that acryon can't be wrong on everything

My wife would agree with this.

[acryon]

I considered trying to begin to reply to you C&S, but I don't think a drawn-out defense is at all fruitful for town. I also don't have near the amount of time necessary.

I'm also gonna say that I am beginning to see Carrot as town. It would make more sense for that slot to keep pushing MD after that 1v1, if it's scum.
Why would a scumastina go after no lynch, if it's TOP scumread for the majority of D1 is now being gladiated?

I mean, that's a bloody strong town tell imo.

ughhhhhh

mastina is gonna write so many more words than i am on this and it's a total waste of time
basically mastina purposefully makes herself unaware of future events in the thread while catching up (a measure i consider actively anti-town, and i personally hate reading chronologically)

point is, she stopped pushing me after i started pushing acryon, not as a result of the gladiation

Echoing this, because it very accurately portrays my feelings on engaging C&S at this point.

NL is bad for town if you have even a slight scumread on MD or Icon. This shouldn't be ignored just because someone doesn't like my play, which I think is probably fair (like I said, first time with this role and first time in a role madness game). Like I said, even if someone thinks I have colossally screwed up, making another objectively bad decision (NL) doesn't fix that.

VOTE: Iconeum

[acryon]

I basicly just proved them as scum. Both acryon and bujaber want the townread lynched first because they know they'll have to NK me otherwise.
MD is more likely to get lynched then me on subsequent days.

I think anyone treating you as conftown right now is giving you way too much credit for your early posts. Like I said, I thought you played very tight in the early game, but saw a clear shift once people vocalized how strongly they townread you.

MathDino is also a higher-risk lynch if he is town because of his role.

[acryon]

Acryon even right out doesn't want to respond against the points against him because 'that's not usefull for town'.

Do you think a wall addressing 20 comments from C&S is useful? That's a sure way to get people to stop caring.

It's also entirely a battle over intent. I'm not going to argue my town intent to C&S why they're wrong about my intent because it's just their gut vs my reality.

[acryon]

I basicly just proved them as scum. Both acryon and bujaber want the townread lynched first because they know they'll have to NK me otherwise.
MD is more likely to get lynched then me on subsequent days.

I think anyone treating you as conftown right now is giving you way too much credit for your early posts. Like I said, I thought you played very tight in the early game, but saw a clear shift once people vocalized how strongly they townread you.

MathDino is also a higher-risk lynch if he is town because of his role.

I agree about me 'loosening up', but that doesn't explain why a town would ever out of all available options choose me in that gladiate duo. There are so many options out there that would help us so much more. Like it has been pointed out, choosing me is scum motivated.

And I disagree. I think you are scum that would be able to skate by for much of the game based on these early reads an would be very dangerous to town. I did what I thought was best based on my personal reads and what I expected to be the overall long-game for town.

[acryon]

@Icon - Nobody cares what acryon says now that he put us in this situation.

Also this. I don't think responses from me are changing anyone's opinion. Turns out Gladiate is a pretty polarizing action.

[acryon]

Actually I'd like acryon, Icon, and Mastina also to say who they'd lynch day 2. Doesn't look like all 4 are gonna live to see D2.

Beefster.

[acryon]

I can't believe we're actually taking no lynch seriously

This.

[acryon]

I considered trying to begin to reply to you C&S, but I don't think a drawn-out defense is at all fruitful for town.

AKA, "I can't respond to the valid points she raised against me because they were in fact valid".

Surprisingly I'm not the only one to question the fruitfulness of a back and forth walling with you. I think you've derailed the town enough with it already.

This shouldn't be ignored just because someone doesn't like my play, which I think is probably fair (like I said, first time with this role and first time in a role madness game). Like I said, even if someone thinks I have colossally screwed up, making another objectively bad decision (NL) doesn't fix that.

We don't dislike your play or think you screwed up.
We fucking think you're scum.

I think that you think that. I'm not sure the others do.

So did acryon, who easily could've gladiators 2 town lurkers

Why gladiate players who can be mislynched without the gladiate?

Answer me that question.

Why would you, if you were scum, gladiate players who you know can be lynched without using the gladiate on them?

That is wasting the gladiate. Because players who can be mislynched without the gladiate...can be mislynched without using the gladiate. And thus should be left for later.

Also, point of fact; BuJaber commented on how the lurkers likely contained scum and he is not likely wrong there. If the lurkers contain scum, then the pool of "town lurkers" would in fact be rather small, so.

There's just a shitload of reasons why acryon has reason to do what he did as scum, and no reason to do anything else as scum.

Except that the ability of town to alternatively vote for a NL makes most of this invalid. And the number of people supporting a NL

in the face of the theory and possible scumreads you mentioned

is evidence that the rest of your argument along this line is nonsense.

Actually I'd like acryon, Icon, and Mastina also to say who they'd lynch day 2. Doesn't look like all 4 are gonna live to see D2.

Surprising that you need to ask. acryon if he lives to see D2, Momra otherwise.

Your game would be improved by 20% if you just stopped scumreading Iconeum.

Only 20?

I can't believe we're actually taking no lynch seriously

I can't believe we're actually taking a guaranteed mislynch seriously.

I think we need to talk about what you think the word 'guaranteed' means.

To add to my 664: Keep in mind that acron likely didn't know voting to No Lynch would be possible. This was something asked and answered in thread. IF he didn't clarify this with the mod in a PM, then the move makes even MORE sense as scum motivated over town motivated. If he was town AND in fact DID clarify with the MOD via PM, then he would have added that information when explaining his role. If he was scum and clarified, he would certainly omit the information. So, either way, SCUM SCUM SCUMITY SCUM.

This is both a valid point and something off of my own role PM I can vouch for--role PMs this game are incredibly ambiguous if mine is anything to go by. I know what my role does, but the specifics of the role are not detailed in the PM.

Surely C&S is better than to support this wild speculation. Especially considering the fact that I have never played as a gladiator before, you don't think I would make clear how it works?

If A50 is down to vote NL we do have the votes.

Still.
This is not something scum could have predicted prior to using the gladiate.

They had no way of knowing we'd be raising so many strong points in favor of the no-lynch.

So while it might be possible in THIS GAME.

In GENERAL. The principle behind what I said remains true. Given the battle against mechanics, reads, and theory (as all three exist in force plenty to avert the no-lynch), a no-lynch is next-to-impossible to achieve which is why it'll be a miracle if we manage the feat this game.

Also as mentioned it's quite possible scum didn't know the no-lynch was an option and even might have thought it was explicitly not an option.
Say acryon DID ask the mod about the role.
Say the mod told acryon something like "if nobody voted, a coin would be flipped between the gladiated players" or the like. (You know, basically, acryon having asked a question, but having asked the wrong question which indicated something other than the actuality.)

That would leave a scum-acryon under the false impression that no-lynch wouldn't be possible.

But even if acryon did know it was possible, I still maintain my stance that it makes no difference. A no-lynch is STILL better than a scum lynch on D1, yes? Do you disagree? So using it to save his life is better than not using it no matter what if he's scum.

If you recognize that this line of thinking is flawed, why are you entertaining it?

[acryon]

Nice hammer with over 5 days left...

[acryon]

What is happening

[acryon]

Two: Even assuming you did in fact know it was possible, you would not necessarily think that possible = assured. I laid out precisely why people would be willing to mislynch Iconeum/Mathdino post-gladiate when unwilling to do so pre-gladiate and unless you can counter THAT point my argument stands. We did eventually no-lynch, sure, yes...but we did so only after I fought for it and advocated for it and gave good reasons for it. For every post you can quote of a player supporting a no-lynch, I can quote at least an equal number of posts from players stating they'd be willing to if not outright PREFERRING we lynch. And no matter how much you try to ignore those posts, the fact that they exist backs my argument up.

Ok, but your argument on this is all theoretical, especially considering the outcome. Sure, people were

interested

in a lynch over a NL for the sake of it, but we never even got very close to a real lynch. And in what world does scum choose to gladiate two players that would be difficult to get people to come to consensus on instead of ensuring a lynch by picking at least 1 player with a lot of heat?

Three: Even if you DID manage to counter that argument, it still doesn't change the fundamental fact:
No scum lynch on D1 > scum lynch D1 for a scum player.

Ok sure, but there are presumably a million ways to gladiate as scum that can produce a better outcome than just not lynching scum.

I disagree on that. The use of the gladiator seemed pretty survivalistic, at least in the short term. That isn't something that I can see from town

It was. I play this game because I want to play. If I have to choose between myself and another townie dying, I would choose them 99% of the time (exception being I somehow know they have a strong PR).

consider this post my vote for acryon. I'm not voting officially till I have a VC cuz I'm lazy and cuz math is hard and even though acryon is certainly today's lynch, there's no reason to cut off conversation for it this quickly.

If this lynch doesn't happen today, them I'm done. Barring an investigation claim, if we don't lynch this scum today, might as well just give up due to incompetence.

I'm never voting acryon

And why the hell is that? Due to incompetence?

@Carrot: totally missed that. Howdy again Mast. Also, now you read MY tag line and put me at the top of your town reads. kthxbye

How often does the "you're all idiots if you don't listen to me" strategy work out?

We need what? 6? We already have 3, with A50 its 4. Mastin will be at L-2. Still think she (they?) won't happen today?

Oh it might because this is a town moronic enough to mislynch combined with the scumfucks who are being blatantly opportunistic about hopping onto this wagon when it should be rather unambiguous exactly why the wagon is shit.

But my statement earlier today was that I wouldn't be lynched if I were scum.

I'm town, so. Is possible given acryon the scumfuck he is will all too happily vote me and then it only takes InfernoBrafin derphammering me to end the day.

Would contradict my statement that I wouldn't be lynched this game which I said D1.

But.

Yaknow.

I stated that under the belief people would actually be rational, which I suppose was in fact an unrealistic expectation from this playerlist.

Literally the only player here I trust to not mislynch me is Mathdino because in spite of how much he finds me infuriating he has half a brain to know I'm not scum with this, which is pathetic since he's the next nightkill be it by his role or scum just outright directly killing him and I could very well be lynched before he even next checks in.

How often does the "you're all idiots if you don't listen to me" strategy work out?

Oh by the way.
Captain Strong is a perfect fit for scum flavor.
It is also perfect flavor for a strongman.

During the battle, Strong's loss of temper increases his offense by 1. He can also use grapple, come out swinging, and execute submission holds, which can deal moderate to very high damage as well.

No offense meant to Gamma but it wouldn't surprise me if scum had to wing it to some extent RE: fakeclaims. To the point where some scum might just outright claim their real role.

Ok, well obviously this is incorrect though. You were already teetering, but now you've launched yourself full-fledged into wild speculation territory. Do I have to explain to you how

flavor

is NAI?

Anyone cc Apple Kid? The existence of Orange Kid implies Apple Kid, so I guess that confirms C&S as town unless we get a CC.

How does this confirm him as town?

Also, C&S may or may not be scum, but we aren't lynching them before we lynch acryon. Notice he's letting all this other shit play out and remaining silent yeah?

I can't prove that's what he's doing as he hasn't posted anywhere else since the end of D1, but my gut tells me it's so.

Well your gut is wrong. I don't play on the weekends. It's been in my sig since I joined years ago.

Yup. You're a Jailkeeper.

VOTE: Carrot and Stick

I am

Ness's Mom

, the real Jailkeeper and cooker of Steak. GTFO.

This is almost definite town. Beefster now firmly in my townreads.

Mastina - Strong as fuck townread right now
Beef - strongish townread
MD - nothing changed since Day 1. Townread

Kthx, TW - townlean
NM - scumlean


Acryon - scum

Mom, A50 - strongish scumread

I notice your reads are more or less exactly C&S's. Is it possible you're being roped in because the slot is townreading you?

Kthxbye's posts have been bad. MD has been weird so far today, but likely town. I guess I don't understand where people are getting the "this is scum A50" from. Haven't played with the slot enough, but not giving much of a further explanation isn't helpful in helping anyone understand that gutread. I feel a little better about Mom than I did yesterday, and a little worse about C&S. In truth I'm still a ways from feeling C&S is scum because I know a chunk of the feeling pushing me there is likely personal bias. Inferno has taken a step back in the game, which has moved them closer to null for me, but I'm not considering it a heavy ding. BuJaber is about where he was.

VOTE: Kthxbye

[acryon]

@acryon: Man, you quoted and responded to none of my posts, but you're just calling me weird for... the A50 read?

I don't want to just make up an explanation here. It's just... there's a way A50 fails to participate in the game as town, and there's a way he does it as scum.

I quotes and responded to things I specifically wanted to address, and then made general comments on things that couldn't be nailed down to a specific post.

I guess it doesn't feel like you to have a read so heavily focused on meta? And meta reads rarely help anyone else understand. It also feels in general like you're taking sort of a backseat and letting C&S drive the game, which has already proven to be quite bad for town.

[acryon]

@acryon: I've played with A50 more than I've played with anyone else in this game besides Not_Mafia.
And I'm completely ignoring mastina's posts. I don't really give a shit about her Marangal push. I would be okay with a Marangal lynch today, but I don't think it's optimal.

Ok that's fair then to the first part, although it's hard for me to give much credit to a meta-read.

To the 2nd part, how confident are you in C&S being town? Does town!Mastina derail the town this much?

[acryon]

Not confident. She's the scummiest person that I would be unwilling to lynch today (although I think I'd actually be unwilling to lynch Not_Mafia, so maybe 2nd scummiest).

And hoooooly shit yes she does.

Help me figure out where your mind's at. Reads? Where do our lynchpools intersect?

Have not liked Kthx today at all. I'm not really sure on IB right now. I'm not sure if this is intentional, but they've done a good job of keeping sort of neutral it seems after that rough first half of the day yesterday. Nothing they've done has really rubbed the wrong way. I like Momrangel a good bit actually, although a lot of it is gut. Nothing has really pinged me from A50, and the thought process makes sense to me. I like the worst. N_M is doing mostly nothing, but something about it feels genuine.

I want a Kthx lynch today, and he is one of very few I could see myself being on board with today. Maybe BuJaber, C&S, and IB in that order.

[acryon]

Bujaber is supertown.

See this is kind of what I felt earlier in the game, but ended up here due primarily to POE.

The whole point is that A50 hasn't pinged you. Town-A50 pings the fuck out of SOMEONE in every game he's in, and I'm usually the one to locktown him. He's a scummy guy. But here he's just kind of sitting back.

Problem is I could say that for a lot of the people in this game. Doesn't feel to me like he's sitting back any more than some others.

I could be sold on Kthx.

Disclaimer: You may need to hear this from someone else since I have personal reasons to dislike him in addition to thinking he is scum.

The NL train already had momentum. Felt opportunistic for him to jump on. Especially since he more or less had just joined the game, some easy town-cred especially if he planned to kill Icon at night. 942 is almost entirely WIFOM, and he ends it by trying to line up a vig/lynch on me. More speculation in 949. 1188 is more speculation. So Kthx tries to make me look scummy based on WIFOM and meta speculation, then proceeds to say anyone is incompetent if they don't jump on board with him.

P.edit: No. I did not have a night action to take.

[acryon]

Hey Almost50.

Did you do anything last night with w/e role you have? I don't want specifics, just curious. I'd ask the same of NM, but he's just a douche disrupter and doesn't answer questions thrown at him anyway.

Without any specifics, I did.

Bull fucking shit.
Barring someone doing something to me last night to prevent my night action, this is a lie.

Or its the truth and he did the scum NK.

Ok call me thick, but what is happening here? Why is A50 scum?

[acryon]

acryon stop rolefishing and join the scum wagon

Most of the games I've played in have had very few roles, and none have been close to this. No chance I am flipping from my strongest scumread to voting a townread based on a claim I don't understand at all.

[acryon]

Unfortunately, Not_Mafia is also scum here

He doesn't bus usually

If you and Kthxbye are town and part of a club where you understand each other, then it's imperative that you try to help the rest of us understand. I just don't understand this strategy of expecting people to follow you without giving a single bit of effort in helping them do so.

I have zero reason to believe that Kthxbye is not still scum.

[acryon]

Especially

if a lynch on A50 were to go through, if he flips town we end up in a situation where Kthxbye's claim was vague enough that it could easily be construed as a misunderstanding.

Being explicit is super important here.

[acryon]

If you and Kthxbye are town and part of a club where you understand each other, then it's imperative that you try to help the rest of us understand. I just don't understand this strategy of expecting people to follow you without giving a single bit of effort in helping them do so.

I have zero reason to believe that Kthxbye is not still scum.

Gimme a break.

SCUM DOESN'T FAKE GUILTIES WHEN NOT IN DANGER.

Line out exactly how the claim would help you. Do you want to make sure he doesn't get counterclaimed? Well scum have fakeclaims. Do you want to see whether or not you believe the role makes sense? Hell no, more open setup spec is just gonna give us more people claiming at the drop of a hat (thanks Beefster). Or do you want to see exactly how A50 lied?

Kthx right now is sure that A50 lied. Unless you think he's a dumb enough PR player that he can't tell how to use an investigative role, what we have is essentially a light guilty on A50. Let's call it equivalent to a tracker guilty.

No, I don't know exactly what Kthx is talking about, but I don't need to. This is no more something scum does than you gladiating 2 obvtown players is.

You can believe me or not, but I frankly have no idea what the situation is, because I don't know of a role that gets us to a credible guilty right now given the question and A50's answer. This is why I have asked further questions. Counter question to you: how does it possibly

hurt

town to get the full claim from him? Surely if A50 is lynched and flips scum, Kthxbye is dead tonight anyway, whether he partial or full-claims. All it does at this point is help people like me actually understand what is happening.

Edit: Okay, so do you trust Kthx's judgment?

Clearly not. I questioned his play and statements before he did any of this.

[acryon]

Especially

if a lynch on A50 were to go through, if he flips town we end up in a situation where Kthxbye's claim was vague enough that it could easily be construed as a misunderstanding.

Being explicit is super important here.

It's not. There's enough here to figure out the game. One of kthx and A50 is scum. It is waaaaaay more likely to be A50. Vote there and we move on from there. A50 and mom decided to be roped together so she'll be next if A50 flips scum. Not my decision. Literally theirs.

This is not enough to lynch someone. For some reason a bunch of people in this game seem to think think that the way to win this game is to say "this is what we need to do. Do it", instead of actually explaining anything or trying to convince anyone.

[acryon]

Okay I get it but how can you call it inconsistent if you don't know his full role? I don't want to go research every investigative role out there but what if he can differentiate between an action and a scum NK?

Like his claim is totally out of the blue and unnecessary as scum. If he wants a townie to die why go after A50 specifically without even trying to build a wagon and consolidate scumreads

@MathDino: Even Bu who was voting A50 and believes Kthx acknowledges that we need to know the full claim.

[acryon]

Okay nope. I have a very good amount of meta showing Not_Mafia is scum here.

He doesn't make shit arguments as town to get his way. See my game (Stack the Deck).

The idea that Kthx-scum claims a guilty on someone to save acryon and mastina, when that results in all 3 of them being lynched in succession, is utterly ludicrous.

Paragraph-posting Not_Mafia always has a reason to suddenly start caring enough to argue a point. I've seen him do it to pull a mislynch in MyLo.

Ok wait a second. Stack the Deck does show a similar playstyle to this game. But so does Winter Wonderland, where N_M was

town

, and you were also in that one. So are you pretending to not remember it?

[acryon]

His play is completely different. Idk what you're smokin.

I guess I don't see the difference?

Okay regardless of who is lying.. consider this


If kthx flips scum - does that townclear A50? (No)
If kthx flips town - does that confirm A50 scum (yes barring kthx did't get blocked)

If A50 flips scum - does that townclear kthx? (Yes)
If A50 flips town - does that cofirm kthx scum? (Barring kthx didn't get blocked)

A50 lynch objectively better

What...by this logic we shoud literally always lynch the accuser in a 1v1, because the accused flipping likely clears the accuser but not the other way around.

[acryon]

I can't decide who's lying here. So if you show me how kthx is an objectively better lynch i'll switch my vote.

Pedit - yes acryon why not? If it is truly 1v1 and we have no other reasons to stringly townread or scumread one of them then that is always the better option

Because we arent making decisions right now based on which one is "objectively better". We should be looking at who is more likely scum. Do you trust kthx? Did you before the claim?

I have a scumlean vibe from Kthx and I can't read A50. I'd rather he be sorted by investigation but failing that I'll sheep Math on him if I'm comfortable.

He literally already got sorted by investigation. You're just not believing it.

The Follower claim makes perfect sense. I almost fakeclaimed Follower in a scumgame. It detects what kind of action you used.

The only action that could get past the follower is a ninja-kill. Hence, A50 either did not actually use an action, or performed a ninja kill (unlikely, but would imply that scum roleblocked me).

Edit: WHY WOULD YOU SWITCH YOUR VOTE WITHOUT AN A50 CLAIM

Why would A50 not just claim to not do anything?? Makes absolutely zero sense. Is your thought that he is a ninja AND he forgot he is a ninja??

[acryon]

pedit hold on I thought last night was agreed as a strongman kill..... Is a strongman ninja kill seriously conceivable?

Maybe. Dunno.

FMPOV, it's possible that A50 ninja killed Iconeum while some other scum teammate roleblocked me.

@Kthx:

Why did you also ask acryon if he performed an action last night?

Exactly...Unless he can follow multiple a night (is this even a thing?), it sounds like he was hedging and waiting to see which of us answered yes first to pounce on.

[acryon]

@acryon: don't be a mastina and cheer me on lol

hey can you talk to me about your not_mafia meta that you apparently stalked

like you knew enough to go find not_mafia's games with me in them

what was it about winter wonderland that struck you as not_mafia scrambling to effortpost and make good arguments at the 11th hour?

compare to stack the deck on D3

I didn't actually know anything about his meta. I literally took 2 minutes and searched through his basic post history until I found a game that was clearly finished. Just so happened that you were in it.

Also I would not categorize Winter Wonderland as that, although I didn't look at it in great detail. My point was against you saying "paragraph-posting", because that does not at all describe his play in any of the games I looked at. And regarding StD day 3, it still doesn't

really

feel that different to me. Certainly not even close to different enough to build a read based on it.

@acryon before the claim I was scumreading A50 harder than kthx. Kthx was null or a townlean by PoE. You yourself quoted my readlist didn't you? You knew this.

So yeah I am biased so objectively is more fair it allows me to artificially remove confirmation bias. Because you can all correct me if my objective reasoning is wrong.

A readslist doesn't really tell me how you feel about a player, which is why I asked the further comment.

I didn't want to just ask A50 and tip him off that I targeted him. If you look back, I asked EVERYONE to say if they did an action lady night for that reason

You did, but you asked him and I specifically.

[acryon]

Brafin:

Wait, hold up.
Kthxbye, you are aware that a NK counts as a power role action, right?
I'm guessing you are tracker/watcher, and saw A50 do nothing, yes? That picks up the nightkill as well, that's what makes those investigative roles.
So by your logic, he performed no action, but performed an action?

Yeah, this is what makes no sense. He either thinks that A50 is a Ninja that

forgot he is a Ninja

OR that he lied when there is no reason to.

[acryon]

Or he misunderstood his role/result

Yes that's a possibility as well.

[acryon]

Actually, assuming we lynch scum today, and assuming the worst is able to confirm townies, we might have ourselves a mechanical win by directing the worst (who can confirm innos), Beefster (stop night actions), and Kthx (gets tracker guilties). Maybe throw in mastina's 1-shot roleblocker. Scum's gonna have a hard time killing.

I think we should elect someone to ultimately control the night actions. This ensures we don't end up allowing scum to target their scumbuddy.

That's a great argument as to why not all those players are town

Was just going to say this.

I'll protect you as long as mastina's doc goes on Kthx.

Kthx should obviously not out his target at all.

So you have Kthx as locktown right now? Because you don't see scum navigating this claim like he did?

[acryon]

So you have Kthx as locktown right now? Because you don't see scum navigating this claim like he did?

His claim is practically confirmed.

I don't see scum faking a softguilty on someone like this, and then gladiating them instead of taking a step back. Just gets them lynched the next day. He easily could've just stayed quiet and lynched someone else.

I'm still hung up on what I outlined here:

Especially

if a lynch on A50 were to go through, if he flips town we end up in a situation where Kthxbye's claim was vague enough that it could easily be construed as a misunderstanding.

Being explicit is super important here.

Obviously he ended up getting forced into full-claiming, at which point we realized the guilty was BS or a misunderstanding.

Considering the fact that you believing him means you're accepting there was a misunderstanding is just evidence that people would go along with it and let him live.

[acryon]

Because I have enough clout to convince this super tunnelly town?

Kthx is still in my lynchpool. While I accept the possibility for a misunderstanding, I'd still be willing to lynch him off play if he has nothing to offer us in terms of good investigations.

That said, lynching him before tonight's night action is just silly.

Problem from my standpoint is I had someone who I already thought was scummiest and was voting, and then to top it off, they are involved in a highly questionable claim.

There is just no one near his level in terms of me being willing to lynch.

[acryon]

See A50 is still scum by play here though.

He's simultaneously trying to lynch Kthx but also put up a barrier for himself to not get lynched tomorrow. Meanwhile, Kthx is basically arguing for a full-on gladiate, which he's currently losing, and which certainly gets him lynched tomorrow.

Either A50 believes the Follower claim and the claim is NAI, or he doesn't, and he shouldn't even be hedging here.

Then there's also all the other ways A50 is scum by play but if anyone's gonna make a case that everyone's gonna ignore, it'll be mastina, not me.

Edit: What is Kthx's scum motivation here?

I explained what the scum motivation was before. I think you lynch someone that, to your point, would have been very difficult to lynch, and have a fairly easy out when they flip town (hint: we're living that out right now). What is Kthx's scum motivation

now

? I think he's too far in to turn back, so I think he has to push forward and hope people will side with him. I presume C&S will come in and wall about how A50 is scum, and I think that's what Kthx has to hope for at this point.

[acryon]

there's a soft guilty on you and you're not fullclaiming, what do you want from me

Except there isn't. Didn't we already clear this up? Either he is a ninja that forgot he was a ninja, or he is lying, which there's no benefit to ever do.

[acryon]

I think we really just need to wait for Gamma here.

Like, A50 is my strongest scumread regardless of the validity of this guilty, so I guess I'm biased. Maybe he has an alibi, but I'm still scumreading.

I don't see Kthx being scum here, I really don't. The fact that so many players apparently do is heavily concerning, particularly for Not_Mafia and Marangal, both of whom I'd be okay with as alternative lynches.

Any thoughts on electing the worst to control our night actions?

And I'm in the opposite spot with Kthx.

the worst is probably the most widely townread, so that's probably as good a choice as any.

[acryon]

Acryon pinkie promise you're town right now

Pinkie promise.

[acryon]

Acryon can you explain why kthx is scum here in as much detail as possible please?

I have a reason for wanting it reiterated.

1051 just sucks. Trying to guilt the town into voting me saying he's "done" if it doesnt go through. Interestingly he doesn't seem so interested in me now.

1188 is total speculation (and false, FWIW), yet being used as a reason for why I'm scum.

And then I've made quite clear my thoughts on this recent gambit. I think it was an attempt to clear out someone that would've been difficult to lynch, and then an easy "misunderstanding" tomorrow after a green flip.

P.edit: I guess I hadn't realized it could be this dire. Leaving my vote since you unvoted, but echoing the sentiment that we need to think more about all of this.

[acryon]

- pedit acryon so you think he is lying about his claim?

Yes, or he is a scum follower and screwed up.

[acryon]

1051 just sucks. Trying to guilt the town into voting me saying he's "done" if it doesnt go through. Interestingly he doesn't seem so interested in me now.

1188 is total speculation (and false, FWIW), yet being used as a reason for why I'm scum.

And then I've made quite clear my thoughts on this recent gambit. I think it was an attempt to clear out someone that would've been difficult to lynch, and then an easy "misunderstanding" tomorrow after a green flip.

You also gladiated the 2 town players working on writing a case for you, so forgive me if I assume that your reads this game have been almost entirely self-centred.

People can have bad reasons for thinking you're scum and not be scum.

Very true and fair enough. But I would say the difference, whether you agree or not, is the actual reasons he put forth for me and the nature in which he tried to convince people. And I hate it when my play is self-centered, but this game has kind of forced it to be I feel like. I am never lynchbait, but this game people jumped on me and used poor reasons to do so. I'm used to calling people out for bad reasons for voting other people, not me.

[acryon]

Very true and fair enough. But I would say the difference, whether you agree or not, is the actual reasons he put forth for me and the nature in which he tried to convince people. And I hate it when my play is self-centered, but

this game has kind of forced it to be

I feel like. I am never lynchbait, but this game people jumped on me and used poor reasons to do so.

I'm used to calling people out for bad reasons for voting other people, not me.

holy shit we got a future radiantcowbells in the making right here

you skimmed a winter wonderland ISO, right?

bujaber was a cop in that game and got vigged, he was pretty widely scumread

now i replaced into late game so i didn't actually read like any of his posts

wanna go check and see if he is capable of shit reasoning/pushes as town (shit in the same way)

Don't compare me to RC!

Also I just played a game with BuJ where he was town a couple months ago. Looking back at it, he played the game was fairly similar to this one I feel like, although maybe a bit less bloodthirsty, and he ended up getting lynched day 1. But yes some of his reasons were bad hence the day 1 lynch. I would also not be surprised if he is town here. He's my weakest scumread for sure.

[acryon]

Acryon I asked you because I find it weird that a townie would be unwilling to give some the benefit of the doubt that they messed up their role when you yourself was given the benefit of the doubt that you messed up your role.

Well to be fair I was scumreading and voting him before he did any of this, hence why he is getting no benefit of the doubt. I would also expect none from people voting me prior to the claim. If he were a scumread this would probably keep me from placing a new vote on him if I hadnt voted, but it's not enough for me to remove my vote.

[acryon]

I was gonna attemor to discredit A50 all by myself thanks kthx.. but anyway no need


Mastina use your role cop on kthx please.

Let's lynch acryon. I don't even care if he's scum anymore I really need to know so I can read the remaining players.

Or alternatively:
Acryon could you vote for A50 please? If he's town I'll sheep you rest of the game what do you say?

No. I do not think A50 is scum.

dude it's honestly probably not_mafia

Is the idea that he is scum because he's not really scumhunting very hard? To be honest, I totally agree with that, but that's what it's felt like in the past when I played with town!N_M. He's the townread I am probably least confident on at this point, especially with how he has townread me so strongly without reason, but I still need convincing. Do you have a couple specific posts that really ping you from past experience with N_M?

acryon quite literally tried to frame the narrative of kthx being scum for the thing that he himself did on D1.

Except I said he was scum before he even made the claim, and all claims are not created equal, so don't try to say they are.

mastina who in the playerlist do you actually think you're swaying with posts like this lol

Seriously. I know I have an extra reason to dislike the posts, but it makes it really really hard to engage with anything that slot is saying when it's just post after post after post. This kind of play can work fine IRL and you can have a dialogue, but it's just a cacophony at this point.

Even if I had the time and desire to go and reply to every point from Mastina, it wouldn't help anything because as it exhausting as it is to read through one set of Mastina posts, we then have an equal response for each one.

[acryon]

UNVOTE:

[acryon]

VOTE: Not_Mafia
Also a good wagon.
lol. Didn't read the last page when I posted that.

Do you think N_M and C&S are both scum?

[acryon]

It's possible. I'd have to look over ISOs to be sure, but I don't think they've had votes on each other.

They haven't, but N_M is one of C&S's 3 primary scumreads.

[acryon]

That is L-1. No hammers

[acryon]

A50 is going to be around tomorrow as town or scum. In fact, we will either have to lynch him at some point or he's going to end game, and that's bad.

Actually, side thought, unless we explicitly want him alive at end game, why aren't we lynching him today?

With all the doubt about the claim and play, if we cant confirm his as town, it's a huge liability. Basically, we make a game winning/losing decision right now that he is conftown or not.

This is mostly a good point, but I'm thinking we do have a way to confirm him right?

In point of fact, one of the reasons you're scum IS that it's only half the playerlist. If you were town then the scum would want to lynch you and town would also want to lynch you; because you're scum, scum are going out of their way to avoid lynching you and you have given enough hesitance to enough town players that the town can't lynch scum-Almost50 easily given they lack bussers to accomplish the feat

How does this not apply to you?

Because they are above it all.

[acryon]

Hell, same goes for acryon. Now VT, with no way to conf town him.

P.edit: acryon, how can we confirm him?

MD outlines two different investigative roles in 1726.

And yes I suppose that applies to me too. I welcome an investigative, but I think A50 is likely more important to sort out than me.

[acryon]

I mean our goal if N_M flips scum should be to completely prevent the scumteam from performing a nightkill on anyone without getting fucked up.
The problem is if A50 is just a mafia ascetic, we won't be able to stop him anyway, since no one can target him. This is actually why I strongly prefer the A50 lynch.

Can't we just tell A50 that he needs to not commute?

[acryon]

Okay, so N_M scumflip means we follow A50 again (and make sure he doesn't commute) and jail/roleblock whoever might also be scum.

Shouldn't we follow A50 even if N_M flips town?

[acryon]

NM ur a troll

That would explain why I'm so confused by all of this.

[acryon]

acryon do you know anything about any of this?

I do not. I did nothing last night and did not receive anything.

[acryon]

And your flip won't actually add anything to the information at hand, correct?

Flavour maybe? I feel like it's flavour.

I mean I don't think so? I've said everything about my role. Must be flavor-related.

[acryon]

We have to lynch mom. Mom you flipping town single-handedly ensures a mastina lynch. Gotta take what you can get. Self vote please we don't need to stretch this out anymore. You might say well why not lynch mastina and if the answer is not obvious is that me and MD both think her being scum is quite far fetched so by default you're more expendable.

No we don't, and we're not lining up lynches, especially when the margin for error is so low (as MD pointed out earlier).

WHAT ABOUT MASTIN CALLING A50 SCUM FOR DOING SOMETHING HE DOES AS BOTH ALIGNMENTS

And honestly is isn't just A50. She's been doing that all game. To all of her supposed scum reads

Wow that sounds like something mastina does as both alignments

Do you agree that this is what Mastina has done here? If so, why is she not getting crap from you for it?

Mastina being a liar is so unlikely. Let's just find out now fuck it I want that shit put to bed.

mastina doesn't lie that much as scum. Could still be scum claiming her real role though.

Mastina doesn't

lie that much

as scum? Surely you're not giving her any shred of towncred for potentially

lying

.

We have to lynch mom. Mom you flipping town single-handedly ensures a mastina lynch. Gotta take what you can get. Self vote please we don't need to stretch this out anymore. You might say well why not lynch mastina and if the answer is not obvious is that me and MD both think her being scum is quite far fetched so by default you're more expendable.

least convincing argument for a self-vote i've ever seen lol

This made me lol too.

I do want to point out that a person telling the truth about their role could still be lying about their alignment I may have overlapped some stuff there. Also don't forget what fakeclaims mean for the game. There is no way all the roles claimed are real claims. We can't make decisions on all of them being true because they aren't. What we can do is make decisions on things that work whether or not someone's role is fake or not.

Echoing this. I believe the mod confirmed that scum are given fakeclaims.

wait fuck
1076 by Marangal is genuine as fuck
i went back to make a case on her
but that plan doesn't come from scum
UNVOTE:

VOTE: A50
i'm gunning for this lynch, all out, let's go

If you are even close to equally believing N_M and A50, shouldn't N_M be the lynch if you're between those two? A50's role is very very powerful for town if he's telling the truth (and we can just check him tonight).

Or do you just really believe N_M and not believe A50?

[acryon]

Re: Mastina doing things as both alignments: Why would I give someone crap for something they do as both alignments when doing so would just result in more walls?

Because if they are building cases on people for things they do as both alignments, that should be called out. Although I definitely sympathize with not wanting walls.

Re: N_M vs A50: Not_Mafia's role is definitely more powerful than A50's.

Is it? I guess I haven't played much (maybe not at all?) with motion detector or commuter, but feels like motion detector doesn't actually do much in a game like this where most people have PR's.

Is there a world where Mom and A50 are scum together?

I suppose I could see that. But actually if Momrangal is scum, I think it's less likely A50 is scum, because a lot of Momrangal's interactions with A50 feel like buddying.

[acryon]

Not_Mafia can potentially detect scum performing the nightkill, as long as we ensure that scum doesn't go and perform a night action on her instead.

@Bujaber: The point is that Marangal wouldn't fakeclaim her role; she's town messenger or scum messenger. By motion detecting her, we can basically stop her from performing the nightkill (or get caught by Not_Mafia).

But if we set up who N_M is going to detect, doesn't that person just make sure they aren't the one submitting the kill?

[acryon]

Still working thru everything

In both situations: are we ok leaving InfBra as the ~unknown~ factor?

This is a good question. I actually have no idea about InfBra's alignment right now, and I fear he's been quietly relegated as town for most everyone. But with all the question marks up in the air besides him, I think it's likely fine to ignore him for now and he can be sorted out later.

[acryon]

Mastina is confirmed joat by Icons flip, she's just not confirmed town

I've been in a game with a Deputy without there being a Cop. And I've been in a game with both Miller AND GF roles present but ALSO no investigative. (the former was a massive 42 player game too)

To this end, I will say that this post from C&S feels like a very big pile of BS if you're of the opinion that C&S could be lying.

Iconeum is a backup of my role. (Something I guessed at D1 which is one of the reasons I was defending him so adamantly--I don't know HOW, but somehow, I just

knew

that he was a backup JOAT specifically.)

[acryon]

That plan seems as good as any.

[acryon]

No A50 + Acryon
No Bu + Beef

bad takes

a50/acryon is actually somewhat likely

Obviously disagree with you on that, but what do you think of the take that Bu and Beef can't be partners?

[acryon]

Brafin:

@Math: Not from A50's first post. He goes after Acryon in literally the first breath he takes, then goes silent. A50 could be, imo, trying to shade Acryon/make him look like a scumbuddy (Assuming that A50!scum)
@All: I know this is kind of sucky, but could we put off the lynch for a few days? I could really use the time to get this flowchart together.

I don't think there's any reason we need to rush, especially if we have a player wanting to catch up and contribute appreciably to the game.

[acryon]

Inferno and James I'd encourage you guys to catch up but continually posting as though the last 1500 posts haven't happened is more likely to cause uninformed opinions to be thrown around

Just keep making notes/flowchart it or w/e and share once you've caught up

Yeah this is probably best. But I do think we should wait to hear what they have to add, especially since it's a slot not set to be protected.

do keep in mind that if someone hammers, you have the entire night to catch up, which one could argue is significantly better
i don't see a world where i push another lynch today, sorry

Unless they get NK'd.

[acryon]

EBWOP on EBWOP: Yeah, we have plenty of time. There is no reason to be lynching for a good while yet.

P-edit: No, to maximize the usefulness of this move, we need to use up as much time as possible and gather as much info as possible. Trust me, it will be worth it. You might have to rethink your gamebreaking plan tho.

if this means you're gonna claim and add to the plan, great

but just remember that longer days and longer deadlines tend to hurt town (this is generally agreed and has been shown)

when i say "we have 11 days" i mean that as a bad thing

games on MS used to not have deadlines at all, but then games stalled out, so mods implemented deadlines as a means of helping town

tl;dr: we're not taking the entire 11 days

Echoing this.

Also Mastina missed a whole day, so good luck avoiding a wall-fest in the next 12 hours.

[acryon]

Mastina is confirmed joat by Icons flip, she's just not confirmed town

I've been in a game with a Deputy without there being a Cop. And I've been in a game with both Miller AND GF roles present but ALSO no investigative. (the former was a massive 42 player game too)

To this end, I will say that this post from C&S feels like a very big pile of BS if you're of the opinion that C&S could be lying.

Iconeum is a backup of my role. (Something I guessed at D1 which is one of the reasons I was defending him so adamantly--I don't know HOW, but somehow, I just

knew

that he was a backup JOAT specifically.)

It was certainly something that pinged me about her claim (note that she only claimed AFTER the fact). but what could I have said or done back then?

I don't know what you could have done, but I was just inspired to revisit the nature of her claim, and was reminded of that doozy which didn't stick out the first time around.

[acryon]

We are a One Shot Double-Day Maker aligned with town. With this, we can create an extra day phase after a lynch. This dayphase will be as long as the time left on the clock at the time of flip, unless it would be less than 7 IRL days, which would make it 7 IRL days. No lynching is an option. We must submit during the day we wish for it to take effect before twilight. We also may not use it during MyLo or LyLo.

I want this today, yes. I'm not comfortable going into the nightphase if A50-town.

There's pretty transparently scum in {Beefster, mastina} tbh. 3 protectives would be silly, even if against a strongman. That's why I'm having them block each other.

That said, for night purposes, I think the optimal move is to do A50 --> acryon and then lynch mastina tomorrow, so we at least get her night action in. There's a very good chance we won't have any kills at all.

Doesn't it make way more sense to use the double-day when we have

less

PRs and

more

information?

We had the plan setup for a reason, because we realized a way we could gain a lot of information by organizing role usage. This approach doesn't make any sense to me. Also if we lynch A50 and he flips town and then lynch me, wer go into the night 6 vs. 3, start the day at 5 vs. 3 and MyLo.

I think the much smarter play is to adjust our plan to protect IB, and use the double-day tomorrow after we've gained significant information from a flip, NK, and multiple investigations.

[acryon]

I'm not protecting a non-investigative. Protecting IB just results in Kthx's or the worst's results going down the drain.

The plan was to use everyone's abilities to force scum to either not take a shot, or get caught in the process.

But the plan was also literally on the condition that A50 flips scum, which we can immediately test for right now. We're in a similarly bad spot tomorrow lynching A50 AND you (with townflips) as we would be just lynching A50-town.

We're not quite in the same spot because we get the extra investigatives. Why would we ever choose to do two lynches in a row in such an uninformed position? There's a reason night-phases are as important for town as they are for scum.

[acryon]

I understand all of this is self-serving for me since your plan involves lynching me, but I just really do not see the logic in trying a lynch and then running it back with just a single flip and no additional PR info. That feels like town suicide.

[acryon]

the worst can only get innocents, not guilties.

Kthx can only catch people doing the nightkill.

Not_Mafia can only catch people who otherwise would not perform night actions doing the nightkill.

And one of them is probably scum. You're speaking in generalities when I'm speaking within the specifics of the claims we have.

Ok ignore the aspect of the PR claims and we are

still

running this day back with the information of just a single flip vs. two flips.

[acryon]

If we had an IC that could be NK'd then I understand how doing the double-day now makes sense, but we don't. No matter who dies, it helps us find scum, especially if we can protect our investigatives.

[acryon]

Acryon's REALLY make me want to lynch him first.

You're also welcome to contribute to the game and explain how you think using the double-day today is best for town.

But forgive me if I'm not pleased with a plan that, best-case scenario gives us an extra day with a single flip and no PR info, and worst-case scenario puts us in MyLo.

[acryon]

Consider that if scum has the ability to produce an extra kill somehow, IB still doesn't get to use his ability tomorrow.

PLUS if IB uses it tomorrow and we lynch town the first time, we're in MyLo already anyway!

To your first point, based on the power-level we've seen so far, it feels incredibly unlikely scum would have an extra kill.

To the second point, here's how I see it. If we protect IB tonight, we actually aren't in MyLo tomorrow.

Double-day today: 1 uninformed lynch, 1 lynch with 1 flip, then MyLo with 3 flips + investigations.
No double-day: 1 uninformed lynch, 1 lynch with 2 flips + investigations, then MyLo with 3 flips + investigations.

So to me, the scenario of protecting him and using double-day tomorrow gives us

2

heavily-informed lynches vs. 1.

[acryon]

Let me know if I'm wrong on this because things did get a little confusing as I got into the details, but I think it's right.

We confirm IB town for one. Thus, at night, scum have to go after PRs and leave confirmed town alive or leave the PRs alive and go after confirmed town.
Do you not think well hit scum between you and A50?

Well I know for a fact on one of those, and I think it's a real possibility we miss on A50 too.

[acryon]

The lynches aren't going to be heavily informed because scum will literally just kill one of the investigatives.

I don't understand how you don't see this.

They kill one. We protect the others. So we just don't protect someone like N_M who has a weaker investigative.

[acryon]

Not to mention even if we pretended that we will get ZERO helpful info from our PR's, we still are making more informed lynches in the 2nd scenario because we have more flips.

[acryon]

Not to mention even if we pretended that we will get ZERO helpful info from our PR's, we still are making more informed lynches in the 2nd scenario because we have more flips.

The fuck?

Literally all that's gonna happen is scum kill an investigative, we lose that result, and we have a townflip today.

WE STILL HAVE THAT TOWNFLIP TODAY IF WE DOUBLEDAY THOUGH.

Except you're wrong. N_M's slot is heavily in question, with many people scumreading him. How is him getting NK'd not a win for town decision-making?

You're acting like all of the PR's we have are conftown. They are not.

Then who would you lynch to for the best possibly of hitting scum?

Personally C&S or Beefster.

[acryon]

I think lynching A50 is likely lynching town, but we can still lynch him and go through with the plan I've made. That's still better than the double-day today plan.

[acryon]

Not to mention even if we pretended that we will get ZERO helpful info from our PR's, we still are making more informed lynches in the 2nd scenario because we have more flips.

The fuck?

Literally all that's gonna happen is scum kill an investigative, we lose that result, and we have a townflip today.

WE STILL HAVE THAT TOWNFLIP TODAY IF WE DOUBLEDAY THOUGH.

Except you're wrong. N_M's slot is heavily in question, with many people scumreading him. How is him getting NK'd not a win for town decision-making?

You're acting like all of the PR's we have are conftown. They are not.

Then who would you lynch to for the best possibly of hitting scum?

Personally C&S or Beefster.

You either don't understand setup breaking or you're scum.

Look, the whole point of leaving those 5 alive is to force the potential scum in them to do the night actions they promised.

Say Beefster or mastina is scum. WHO CARES? They're going to block each other tonight, so they're not performing the nightkill unless they're literally the scumteam!

Say Not_Mafia is scum. WHO CARES? He's been assigned to detect Marangal (or Bujaber depending on how this goes). He either has to fake a guilty on one of them, or he potentially confirms and innocent. PLUS Kthx is already checking N_M!

They're not conftown, but scum roles can still be used to benefit town.

You're getting lynched 100% of the time if you try to lynch in {Beefster, C&S, N_M, Kthx, the worst} today. Pick any 2 outside of those 5.

Like I said, I guess it is possible I am screwing this up. Never been in a game with near this many roles.

I am willing to admit I'm wrong about this, but I'm sure you can understand my hesitation when the proposed plan involves lynching someone I think is town followed by someone I know is town.

If we're lynching outside of those, I think BuJ and Mom are most likely scum, but that's more PoE than anything.

[acryon]

Marangal, it's also possible that he's faking badness because given the plans set in motion, he can't win.

My ego would appreciate this.

[acryon]

acryon, who's the scumteam?

C&S, Beefster, BuJabar, fairly uncertain on BuJabar. I'd probably have a better 3rd, but the person who I thought fit the team (Kthx) I now consider to be strongly town, so my reads are admittedly a bit shaky today.

[acryon]

Does anyone have any experience with a role similar to IB's? I would guess it's town just by its mechanics, but is it explicitly so?

[acryon]

dear god man it doesn't matter

Why does it not matter? Again, you are treating a PR as conftown.

[acryon]

It'd be easier if we knew we actually

can

treat IB as conftown.

[acryon]

ACRYON DO YOU NOT REALISE THAT WITH YOUR PROPOSED SCUMTEAM

THERE IS NO WAY IB LIVES THROUGH THE NIGHT

Except that the whole point of the night setup is that we

know

if someone doesn't play along.

[acryon]

ACRYON DO YOU NOT REALISE THAT WITH YOUR PROPOSED SCUMTEAM

THERE IS NO WAY IB LIVES THROUGH THE NIGHT

Except that the whole point of the night setup is that we

know

if someone doesn't play along.

we already practically know one of beefster and mastina is scum

of fucking course one of them is going to block me tonight

not to mention there's the possibility that scum have a strongman

IB's power is too useful to risk just to watch scum be like OOPS SORRY I GOT ROLEBLOCKED

If we already practically know one of them is scum, then why on earth are we not lynching one of them, and instead basing a plan on them cooperating with town?

VOTE: Carrot and Stick

[acryon]

Why are we not using it today?

Looks like we are.

[acryon]

Of course we're using it today.

And fucking lol at lynching one of the protectives.

Not_Mafia I completely fail to see how acryon's town here. He's not this dense.

How sure are you that he's town?

It looks like you called him town after he claimed Captain Strong.

"One of the protectives" that many people believe are

scum

. Now you're choosing to lynch people based on the utility of their claim.

[acryon]

This is tantamount to a policy lynch.

[acryon]

Or in the case of C&S/Beef, a policy non-lynch.

[acryon]

"One of the protectives" that many people believe are scum. Now you're choosing to lynch people based on the utility of their claim.

You spent 2/3 of early D1 shitting on hydrae.

This is a gross misrep. Made just a few comments on it over the first part of the day and then moved on from IB.

You then built up to a "Wow Icon and Mathdino are really bearing down on me, huh?" and then fucking gladiated us.

Icon was exhibiting textbook scum play to me, and you were believing and following lines that made no sense for town!MD to follow IMO.

You then refused to vote highly likely scum, instead voting someone an investigative claiming a soft guilty.

"Highly likely scum" is completely in the eye of the beholder. Garbage comment.

And now you're trying to stop IB from using the double day when there's basically 0 chance of him living through the night.

I misunderstood some of the implications of the double-day choice, and again, forgive me if I take issue with a plan that involves lynching someone I strongly believe to be town, followed by lynching a conftown to me, followed by LyLo. You really can't understand how that scenario looks undesirable from my spot?

This is not policy. You're openwolfing because you know you won't see LyLo.

See comments above.

[acryon]

It's honestly really difficult to play as openly anti-town as acryon has.

Like you have to be REALLY trying hard there.

This is such a misrep. I've taken issue multiple points with plans that involve lynching me. Call it survivalistic, but I sign up so I can play games and I don't want us lynching confirmed town.

The only play of mine you can understandably take major issue with is the gladiate. Never played with one or as one before, so I admit I played it badly, but it was based on what I thought made sense at the time, and to a certain extent was likely made worse by my frustration with MD and the playerbase in general.

[acryon]

then you push lynches on 2 people in the lynchpool that aren't town!

all of the time you've spent trying to argue that mechanically saving IB for tomorrow isn't the best decision

is time you could've spent trying to sell me on bujaber or marangal, both of whom i'm townreading me

the fact that you believe A50 is town so strongly is actually incredibly confusing

BuJ and Momrangal are both

very

weak scumreads. I'm not going to try to sell you on something I barely believe.

That

would be anti-town.

[acryon]

But you aren't confirmed town

We're talking about from my perspective, where obviously I am.

I know I haven't played this game very well. Most games I have played have been pretty role-light, so I'm used to playing pretty straight-forward and doing very little setup spec. I admit I'm out of my element there, but still thought I should contribute where it seemed like we were going wrong.

[acryon]

The towniest shit A50 has done is accept his own lynch on the condition that we lynch mastina. That's actually not a shit deal.

But see, you didn't argue hard against the A50 lynch until you realised that you might also get lynched today.

I argued against it a good bit, but saw the merit in going through a flip (especially on someone so controversial) and then going through with our night plan. When that plan changed to lynching me afterwards and

without

any additional info, it gets a lot worse. Are you really confused about why that would be from my perspective?

[acryon]

The night plan is seriously just bad if A50 flips town though. Scum can easily just have mastina or Beefster roleblock me and kill whomever I'm guarding.

But then aren't we

certain

one of them is scum? And if that's such a fear then why aren't we just lynching one of them in the first place?

[acryon]

Because the goal is to block the NK and the roleblock
And having them block each other does so

Ok, but that's in the scenario that A50 is scum. It just feels like we are hinging too much on that.

Also if C&S and Beefster are both scum, irregardless of the flip they can just make the kill and end up implicating someone like BuJ.

[acryon]

Icon was exhibiting textbook scum play to me, and you were believing and following lines that made no sense for town!MD to follow IMO.

Wait a tick. I'm on phone so I can't track this down easily, but didn't ypu say you were town reading at least one of them when trying to explain your gladiate?

Anyone?

No. Why would I ever gladiate someone I was townreading? I had mentioned my scumread on Icon before the gladiate, and MD had been moving around in my reads a bit, but his pushes leading up to it just didn't make sense to me from his perspective.

ALL OF THIS IS ASSUMING WE MISLYNCH TWICE IN A ROW which is by itself probably unlikely.

This is my point

. The scenario of the double-day means our next two lynches in a row are more or less uninformed. And remember from my perspective, this plan involves one lynch that is

assuredly

a mislynch, so we're already half way there.

[acryon]

-pedit: lol acryon .. the part you quoted doesn't support your case. It's proof against it. We win even in the worst case scenario is what I'm saying. There is literally no downside.

What are you talking about? How are uninformed lynches not a downside?

Yes I'm pretty sure he said he scumreads Icon.

No he didn't explain this part exactly like this but from what I understand and recall his plan to get enough votes on Icon was to pit him against a widely townread player. And I guess in his mind if math got lynched then we as town at least confirm MD's alignment for sure (at the time mastina was flip flopping so it would have shut up everyone arguing about MD).

This was not my plan. MD and Icon were both players that I could see being scum and could also see skating by for a loooong time if they were scum. Seemed a good opportunity to try to nail one of them.

[acryon]

And remember, from my perspective, this plan is

especially

bad because I know my alignment. I understand to an extent why you wouldn't see that, but to me this is lining up lynches on town.

[acryon]

If everyone made that argument, every lynch would be bad

It's not quite that simple. There are several factors that make this bad to me:
- Lining up lynches in general (fundamentally bad)
- Lynching someone I think is town (bad based on my reads)
- Lining up a lynch on me (bad because on my facts)
- Making consecutive lynch decisions the day we worked out the setup but

without

taking advantage of our PRs (strategically bad)

[acryon]

So you're suggesting there isn't a strongman and that mastina roleblocked me, correct?

I'm happy with this conclusion.

And again, your issue here, that A50 also pointed out, is that you are

continually

getting tunnel-visioned and treating players as confirmed. Why is that not a legitimate issue?

[acryon]

Under that conclusion, as long as we lynch scum, Beefster's jailkeep will tie up mastina tonight, and they won't be able to strongman kill.

Who am I tunnel-visioning? I've had a scumread on A50 for the majority of the game, and he's yet to do anything particularly pro-town or townreadable.

Who have I treated as confirmed town?

I would argue you're treating the majority of the players as confirmed town. You recognize the serious issues with Mastina yet refuse to vote there because ?

I think you are unfortunately getting caught up in the utility of each player's claim and letting that weigh your decision-making too much. A50 has a non-investigative/protective role and I have a (now) non-existent role, which is part of why you're more than happy to lynch either of us.

[acryon]

acryon and Almost50 have no reasonable concrete views of the gamestate beyond "fuck mastina, she's scum".

And no night action plan for how to deal with the aftermath.

And yours is to line up two lynches with no new information and cross your fingers, and then hope possible-scum cooperates with your night plan. Doesn't sound much better to me.

[acryon]

STOP TALKING IN GENERALITIES.

Point out the specific flaws in this plan or you have no legs to stand on.

Who SPECIFICALLY am I treating as confirmed town?

Beefster, Mastina, Kthx, N_M, the worst. Beeftser and Mastina are the most egregious.

What SPECIFIC flaws does this create with the night plan?

If you believe at least one of Mastina/Beefster are scum, then this plan gets us no closer to figuring out which is which. If Mastina flips scum, it will clear Beefster. Otherwise you're going to be heading into a likely LyLo with 2 giant question marks you can't sort out. If we are going to essentially not use either of their roles anyway, why wouldn't we just lynch Mastina and actually

gain relevant information

?

we already practically know one of beefster and mastina is scum

of fucking course one of them is going to block me tonight

[acryon]

Re: Kthx: So you still think Kthx is scum?

No.

Re: Not_Mafia: He's not confirmed town. In fact he's more than likely scum. That's why I'm having Kthx follow him tonight.

Probably agree here.

Re: the worst: You disagree with this townread?

No.

Re: Beefster/mastina: If we lynch one of them and that person flips town, nothing stops the remaining one from killing IB or an investigative. We may get a scum lynch tomorrow, but then we're back to square one. My goal is to prevent a NK altogether.

Conservative Plan for A50 scumflip

:

Mathdino guards the worst
mastina docs Kthxbye
Beefster jails Bujaber
the worst checks Marangal
Marangal messages the worst
Not_Mafia motion detects acryon
Kthxbye follows either Not_Mafia or Beefster

Alternative Plan (focused around stopping the kill)

:

Mathdino guards Kthxbye
Kthxbye follows Not_Mafia
mastina roleblocks Beefster
Beefster jails mastina
Not_Mafia motion detects Marangal
Marangal holsters
the worst checks Bujaber

Works in the case that mastina and Beefster can stop each other from performing factional kills (and also on the basis that mastina and Beefster are not literally the scumteam).

Thoughts?

Ok so I'm not sure at which point the plan got picked, but FWIW I fully endorse the conservative plan, and not the alternate plan. I think we

need

to be conservative, which has been my whole point. We can't afford to play cocky when we're this close to LyLo and the town is so far from agreement on most scumreads.

[acryon]

I thought the whole plan was to get TWO LYNCHES TODAY. That means IB's ability will be activated today, so why would they ever be shot tonight and why would you even care?

acryon has been campaigning for not using the ability today, which you don't really seem to give a shit about. I'm partially responding to you guys as a unit, so I guess I mixed things up.

Lynching Beefster/mastina in sequence does nothing to prevent the nightkill tonight though. It's still unclear who the rest of the scum are in that situation, and the only abilities we have at night to help determine that are Kthx's Follower and N_M's Motion Detector, either of whom might be scum.

Yes, the goal is to get a scum lynch today, but lynching the scum in Beefster/mastina puts us in a very bad spot tomorrow.

FWIW I am much happier with using the double-day if we lynch one of beefster/Mastina today, because flipping one of them gives us a

ton

of information even if the one we picked flips town. Lynching A50 does not.

[acryon]

Lynching Beefster/mastina in succession guarantees scum kill one of {the worst, Kthxbye, Not_Mafia, Mathdino (if I get lucky)}.

I don't understand how that's okay with you.

We are only lynching the 2nd one if the first one flips town, and we are more or less guaranteeing scum in that 2nd scenario.

[acryon]

And the beauty of my scenario is that if we do hit the right one the first time, then you can lynch whoever your heart desires on D2.

[acryon]

Well if we really want to make scum's job difficult, we lynch Mastina and then have MD flip a coin between you and the worst to guard.

[acryon]

Hey MD, can you do a VC by chance?

[acryon]

Thank you sir. Agree with activating double-day.

[acryon]

OK can we lynch acryon now

Try again.

[acryon]

OK can we lynch mastina now

Better for you, acryon?

[acryon]

Acryon: you claim to be vanilla now, y so opposed to your lynch?

1) I like playing mafia.
2) I know I am town so a lynch on anyone I think is scum is strictly better.

[acryon]

let's look at this from a 'town wants to win as a whole' instead of a 'acryon likes to post in forum and says he's town' mindset.

If you're actually town and you make it anywhere near end game alive, town is fucked cuz many think you're very possibly scum.

If I'm actually wrong and you are town, we mislynch an effective VT that needs to die sooner than later anyway.

If YOU'RE wrong and we lynch CS, we lose a good PR.

10/10 would rather be wrong about you than have you anywhere near end game.

That said, you're scum so it dont matter

Ok, and from a 'town wants to win as a whole' perspective, I still think it's better to lynch others who I am scumreading. You're more or less supporting a policy lynch at this point.

[acryon]

Kthx and the worst can you guys please lynch acryon so we can get on with the day

It's interesting how quickly people forget about someone (Mastina) just because they don't post for a couple days. Look at the slot. Need I remind everyone of that

horrendous

claim?

[acryon]

Just dropping this here for those that missed it. I dare anyone to tell me this isn't from scum.

Iconeum is a backup of my role. (Something I guessed at D1 which is one of the reasons I was defending him so adamantly--I don't know HOW, but somehow, I just knew that he was a backup JOAT specifically.)

[acryon]

Bus theory is consistent
We really need this flip to gamesolve tbh

If you're talking about the Mastina flip, I agree.

[acryon]

GG guys.

As I said in the dead PT, I really had no idea how to play this. Never been in a game with a traitor before, let alone played one. Figured my best bet was to put all 3 scum in my townreads which would hopefully 1) signal to them that I was the traitor and 2) push people away from at least some of them since I would think town wouldn't expect scum to TR ALL of their scum-mates.

Also never played with a gladiator, so since I was close to being lynched, I figured I would just create as much chaos as possible, which I do think I mostly succeeded in doing. There was likely a way for me to do that without basically scum-claiming by picking two people that were widely-townread, but I was also just frustrated since I never get wagoned early in the game as either alignment.

[acryon]

Also was there a link to the scum PT that I missed?

[acryon]

Thanks!