Mini 1993 - Earthbound Mafia: Giygas' Curse - GAME OVER

[InfernoBrafin]

Hello! It is I, InfernoBrafin, that incredible merging of an Inferno390 and a James Brafin!
VOTE: LUV

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno: I find that rude. In fact, James and I have agreed to post in this format, so you can see our reads more clearly.
#HydraLivesMatter

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno: We're voting you. That's what's shaking.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno: No problem.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin: I find the whole "I don't like hydras" thing fishy. That seems really biased against hydras, and a great, scummy way for a non-hydra to say "He's scummy because he's not accounting for the other hydra."
Inferno, I'd like to shift our vote to acryon.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin: Also,

@MOD

, can we talk from our normal accounts, or must we always post from the hydra?

[InfernoBrafin]

Infenro: Hmm, an interesting thought, Brafin. I'm not sure that at this point, the post you mentioned is AI, however, and I think some other people need to start communicating before we move out of RVS.
P-edit: Thanks, Gamma!

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno: RUDE! I'm just approaching the game objectively! Skipping RVS like this and calling half of a hydra scummy is really dumb.
VOTE: BuJaber

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Not only am I insulted by your dislike of only half of our hydra (I always get excluded ), you're trying to jumpstart the actual voting phase before everyone gets here, and you have nothing against him but "find him scummy." You can't even tell us

why

it seems suspect to you. This feels super contrived and planned out, not to mention scummy as crud. Thoughts, 'Ferno?

Please be careful with dark colors, as I use mafBlack and that makes them hard to see. No punishment will be handed out if they're used but your post will be edited for clarity.

[InfernoBrafin]

EWBOP (

Brafin

): Guess I just got ninja'd by my own partner.
That answers my question.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin

:

Spoiler: For those who don't like big text.

I AM A DUCK!!!!!!!!

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno390

: Well crap. I wasn't even paying attention to what account I was on. I deserve major mod reprimanding for that.

On a more positive note, how are Brafin and I playing scummily?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Mathdino, the fact that you are saying that Brafin and I are scummy without actually explaining why is scummy in itself. I sound like you're trying to scumread us without actually providing a read.
Plus, we didn't really even push acroyn. We're pushing BuJaber.

@BuJaber, mind if we call you BJ for simplification?
@Worst, I'm glad that someone appreciates my failures at life.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

I'm trying to recall where either one of us have ever played a full game with you and failing. Please tell me where you're getting this "You're play is always scummy" vibe from?
And how can you scumread us and admit that our playstyle is "naturally scummy" at the same time? wouldn't that mean you nullread us?

[InfernoBrafin]

Whether or not you scumread me isn't really my concern. Your playstyle is naturally scummy,

and if you're scum

, explaining why is literally anti town for me to do.

Why would I provide reads on everyone else but you in this situation?

Regardless, I generally don't have strong reads on naturally scummy players. The scumminess masks the alignment indicative stuff.

Brafin

: You're telling me this isn't subtly accusing us of being scum?

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Why is skipping RVS pro-town? I always thought it was important for town to do RVS and a natural part of the game.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno

: Mathdino, stop shading the corn. I'm really starting to see this calling out our play as scummy but then just saying it's because we're hydraing is trying to make us look scummy without actually coming out and saying we're scummy.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno

: ANd btw, we don't scumread everyone who finds us scummy. We simply scumread those who find us scummy for blatantly bad reasons, or no real reasons at all.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

The actual...

I'm going to get modkilled for this before D1 is out.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Because I wanted to wait and see how you tried to explain what you were saying. which had led me to believe that you're just shading us. Course Brafin gets a say in this too, so you'll have to see what he says before you have the whole story.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Alignment. By saying that he way you find Brafin and I interacting to be scummy, you're shading how we're relaying information as coming from scum. You can't call a player's skill in of itself scummy; it's the posts that are scummy or not.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Where I get the shade fro is you acting like the way we are trying to be transparent with our reads is scum-like behavior, but then being flippant about it. It looks like you're calling us scum without actually committing to a read.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Perhaps I assumed that's what we were getting scumread for. I just don't see what else we could be doing that could be at all considered scummy.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Okay, but this leads me right back to the point of you won't explain what you find about our play that is scummy, leaving me to only guess about what you could possibly be calling out. Right now it just looks like you are using the fact that we're a hydra to call us scummy.

I think that you're throwing accusations at Paradox of scummy play really early, which is odd. I also think that a flash wagon this early can be interpreted as "hunting for PRs," which makes me trust you less. Not knowing your scum or town meta, I don't know what It means for you yet. But I will.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Overall, James and I each have about 4-5 months of experience on the site. We've each only seen a little outside of the newbie queue though.

[InfernoBrafin]

VOTE: InfernoBrafin

this has nothing to do with your generally scummy vibes FTR

opportunistic, could've easily voted me when i basically asked them to
instead chose to wait until after paradox voted me

then assuming reasons for other people scumreading them is an actual scumtell (i think? i haven't seen this behaviour often enough to confirm this but scum is generally more self-conscious)

Inferno:

I'm assuming because you won't tell me. And opportunistic is a stretch.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

A) It's no benefit to you, but it is benefit to town. Town needs to explain reads so that they can better sort and find scum, even if the read is poor. The fact that you're going to withhold information so as "not to get a mislynch" on someone you find is playing scummy seems incredibly off.

We're not going to change our play to look townie. That's scummy behavior in of itself. What I can do if you explain your read is have a conversation about it and gather information from that read to form my own reads.

And you're telling me that if Paradox had a very towny town game, you'd call it scummy anyways becasue he's a scummy player? Because that's what it seems ike you're saying.

[InfernoBrafin]

I love being scumread as any alignment

Inferno do you agree that some players have meta that makes them seem scummy regardless of alignment?

Inferno:

No. Scummy is a term used to define a post. It cannot be used to define an overall playstyle. People make townie posts as well as scummy posts. The only way you cold convinve me of a scummy player is to find one where every single thing that player posted could fall under the category scummy.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

I would define them as "not very good at playing mafia."

@Beefster: Which part of this is self-conscious?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

If that is the way you are using that term, then you should probably use anti-town instead, because I got in really hot water my very first game onsite for using that term in a similar way.
If you are calling me scummy, you are saying that you find my reads coming from a scum view, which makes me believe you are scumreading me. If you are using it in any other way then you are being misleading with your usage of the word.

[InfernoBrafin]

"Good at being town" is about being right, not about posturing and acting like you're town.

You, for example, are always going to rack up scumreads if you play like this. Am I calling you bad at playing mafia for this? No.

I mean right now I'm calling you bad at playing this game because so far you've cast shade on pretty much everyone who's voted you. If you're town, then your reads are what I'd call self-centred.

You also never answered my question about how you're reading the worst, which is hilarious given that you talk a big game about discussing reads.

Inferno:

I'm shading Beefster? I'm shading Worst?

I must've missed you asking about Worst. Right now I'm reading him as null. I haven't really seen anything from him as AI.

[InfernoBrafin]

everyone voting me is doing something anti-town because i am town

Inferno:

This I know is a fallacy, because it assumes you as town. I can't find the page on the wiki right now though, which is annoying.

I'm not the one with scemantics. You are using a word in a way that is misleading, and now calling me scummy because I've been misled.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Beefster was scumreading me long before post #79, which is where you make that accusation. And based on Worst's timing, you more or less ninja'd him.
Plus I've already done the same thing with acryon, and I'm definitely not scumreading there anymore.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Give me a sec, Worst, I'll get to the post piece by piece.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Honestly though, there's not much else I can say about post #82 except that by Dino's definition, he would call those things scummy because they would get scumreads, but at the same time says that those actions are not scummy.
What definition are you using, exactly, Dino?

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin

: Looks like I have some catching up to do. Give me a sec and I'll see if I can make heads or tails of this stuff.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin

: Let's start with this: Who ever said we scumread acryon or the worst? We certainly didn't ever scumread the worst. And we both have a habit of starting strong and making some quick reads in order to attract scum. That's our playstyle-- erm, Inferno's, anyway.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Two, it feels like Math is trying REALLY hard to force RVS. Which I get, seeing as my partner is as well, so while it's "scummy" (to use mathdino's term), it doesn't strike me as a scum move.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Inferno390

: Well crap. I wasn't even paying attention to what account I was on. I deserve major mod reprimanding for that.

On a more positive note, how are Brafin and I playing scummily?

VOTE: InfernoBrafin
Semi-serious vote.

IB looks awfully self-conscious.

the worst is town, or at least not scum with InfBraf. Cheeky scumplay like that isn't his thing I think.

No read on the hydra, feels like they're playing in an intentionally scummy way, but whatever.

acryon is probtown until someone finds me evidence that they open scumgames like this.

VOTE: Paradox

Correct move is to always wagon this guy.

VOTE: Mathdino
I frickin' trusted you. I babysat you. But no, you decided to betray me and join the frickin' mafia. What a lowlife thing to do.

Yeah. Mathdino's pinging me too. Let's see how this progresses.

This exchange pings me HARD.
A) When we or any player asks why someone thinks they are behaving scummy, it is a pointed question to out bad scumreads, not a "This is how I should behave" tactic. If that were the case, Inferno would have been much less self conscious a long time ago. He's asking the question in order to scumhunt.
B) The vote against Dino was made in jest as a RVS it seems, but Beef treats it as a real vote? Super sus.

Finger of Suspicion Beef.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

No read on the hydra, feels like they're playing in an

intentionally scummy

way, but whatever.

what about this post makes you think i'm shading you?

do you believe i'm shading your alignment, or your skill/quality as a player?

DUDE. THE SERIOUS FRICK.

The answer to your own question is

literally

in the post you quoted.
Either you're stupid (doubtful) not paying attention (likely) or this is insanely scummy. (Occam's Razor)

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Okay, now I'm seeing a trend in Mathdino. From the previously quoted post on out, he refers to us as naturally scummy, when that is never the initial wording. It looks to me like he's trying really hard to defend a really bad read.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Okay, just caught up and after skimming everything since my last post:

-I'm glad I backed off and allowed some other reads to develop. That was only hurting me.
Worst has me all over the place. Not sure where my read sits on him right now.
Icomeum is obvtown.
Beefster has got to be town by that though, becasue his exchange with Iconeum at his entry olny makes sense as SvS or TvT.
Can't decide whether Bu is scum trying to take advantage of a TvT with me or scumpartners with MathDino in a two pronged attack. Either way, I am reading Bu as scum.
MD could honestly go either way for me as of this post.

Also, I'd like to apologize in advance at how bad we actually are at forum mafia, if our play is as bad as some of you believe. Perhaps our newbie-ness will bring something to the game.

Going to read through again to see what else I can make of all of this.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Praying for you, Kthxbye.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Inferno: RUDE! I'm just approaching the game objectively! Skipping RVS like this and calling half of a hydra scummy is really dumb.
VOTE: BuJaber

Arguably dumb but how is it scummy?

This was closer to an OMGUS RVS vote, LUV.

@Worst:
Wel, Iconeum is obvtown imo because his reactions and conversing does not feel fabricated at all. His responses don't ever seem forced, and he's doing a good job with his reading, too good for it too be scum.
But then, if you look at Iconeum's enterance and how he interacts with Beefster, it doesn't work as a TvS interaction. The back and forth is too strong for a TvS to make sense. So it'd either be TvT or SvS. And if Iconeum is obvtown, Beefster also has to be town.

Do you have any other thoughts on my reads?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Interesting read there Beefster. What about both Worst and MD comes off as town?

I do agree with you on Momrangal.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

I prefer to not answer that question at this time.

Wut
Why are you not answering, Iconeum?

@acyron: I still think it could be TvT. Town has the ability to scumread other town members. That's not unheard of. I still think that the entrance exchange just wasn't was too realistic to be scum.
I'm a little confused by this question; it seems to be looking to put me in a hole that isn't there.

@Bu: I read your post on why we're scum and the only reason you actually gave was that I sounded panicked, which is a shaky excuse to call me scum at best. The rest of the post was just telling me to shut up. You're also being a little hesitant on everyone except this slot, which concerns me.
Also, isn't the J in oyur name already capitalized? Why did you get so agressive about me calling you by the two capitialized letters in your username, out of curiosity?
VOTE: Bu

LUV is def. striking me as town. MD feels a little more town now. Worst also feels more town now.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

You "changed your mind?"
No, you need to elaborate on this. WHY did you change your mind?

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Big catchup incoming:

1. how is that a fallacy
from my perspective, anyone who votes me is doing something anti-town
does this give me the right to call people scummy for voting me

But scum can say this as easily as town, and dissuade votes. That's why Inferno is sus of this.

furthermore, is voting a mod-confirmed innocent child scummy?
fuck no, it's just a meme thing to do

2. just stop it with the wordplay
it's not misleading, because literally every other game i've been in people have understood it; you're the one choosing to harp on me for this because you're obsessed with wanting to know why i think you act scummy

Math, please look at this wiki page: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Scummy

This will explain Inferno's problem pretty well. He's a heavy wiki-meta player.

I'M ALSO NOT CALLING YOU SCUMMY FOR THE SEMANTICS DISCUSSION BTW

Why do you think that we think that you think we're scum for semantics? That's not why we think you're calling us scummy. In fact, we've never said that.

SO ADD THAT TO THE LIST OF REASONS YOU'RE SCUM THAT YOU'VE PUT IN MY MOUTH

Really up in the air about this slot. On oone hand, he seems like really frustrated town. On the other, he IS shading us pretty hard. Intentionally scummy == playing like scum, regardless of how you spin it.

Inferno:

@BuJaber, mind if we call you BJ for simplification?.

I do mind. Please call me Bu or Buj. You can capitalize or not capitalize any letter you see fit. I'm used to these shortened versions.

As for why I called you scummy is because your tone seemed unnatural. It was as if someone is trying to talk in as neutral a way as they can. Only scum would feel the need to do so. I only called inferno scummy not james because james hadn't said anything yet at that point.

Your posts have since lost that toneless feel to them. You are now genuinenly frantic and nervous.

You have an interesting def of frantic and nervous. Does sticking to your guns come across as frntic and nervous to you, because that's what Inferno is doing.

So far I have to agree that your slot is looking like a very likely scum. Especially that math sounds almost exactly like he did when he replaced in the only game I've played with him. He loves over explaining. He can lose himself in the little things. But more importantly here he is just right about the semantics debate. So please put the whole what does 'scummy' thing to bed. People always have different interpretations of certain words or phrases in every game. Infer what each person means from context. You called him out on him calling you scummy but not calling you scum and he responded and explain what it means from his pov.
Not to mention that this discussion is pretty much what mafia is about. Town players scumhunt and generally don't care about themselves if town can win.

And going after Math this hard doesn't strike you as just that?

They are therefore likely to appear scummy in some instances by saying things and not thinking about how they sound. PR's may also intentionally do scummy things to avoid being NK'd. As for scum they are trying to appear town but if they overdo it, it starts to look fake. They also need to lynch tactically to ensure they can win. I can continue but I think the point is clear. There is a lot of overlap between what a town player would do and what a scum player would do. The game boils down to figuring out intentions behind actions.

If anything IB is the more likely scum.

What makes him more likely scum then math, from your perspective?

Very good question. This post is NAI. But your previous post has me slightly townleaning.

And math of course I'm townreading if that isn't clear.

I like my vote on I-B.

You never did answer this question.

Pedit - yes icon yes. More good questions. I wanted to talk about the worst too.. I got distracted with the 'scummy' definition topic.

The worst seems to be posting just enough to look active and mainly NAI stuff. Scumlean.

This slot is striking me as scummy. He's not really reading or explaining reads, just voting.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Dino, talk to me

How likely is that vote placed out of frustration vs it being placed because of actual opportunistic behavior?

The slot was frustrated with me beforehand, but they didn't vote me, even when I gave them an opening to.

You've said yourself that scummy =/= scumread. Is it possible that Inferno was pointing out (in his terminology) what he felt like was anti-town play and didn't scumread you yet?

Inferno only chose to vote me after Paradox's vote.

I see a correlation. Now it's possible that's town-opportunism (it happens), but I think it's just more likely to be scum.

VOTE: Bujaber

This is a serious vote, and I think this slot should actually get lynched. It feels like he's decided to just piggy back on the hottest topic atm. Possibly to look like he's being active?

It does feel a bit like that. However, the big paragraph to me pings as town-effort. Not that quantity = town, but I feel like we'd see the effort portrayed differently if he were just trying to get credit for activity.

This is interesting. I found the big paragraph to be NAI. I also found Bujaber commenting on the "hottest topic" to be NAI. It's one of those things where since it's the only thing going on in the thread, you kinda have to comment on it.

I'll admit that if IB is town, Bujaber's probably the scum on the wagon, so I can see Marangal's perspective.

A) When we or any player asks why someone thinks they are behaving scummy, it is a pointed question to out bad scumreads, not a "This is how I should behave" tactic. If that were the case, Inferno would have been much less self conscious a long time ago. He's asking the question in order to scumhunt.
B) The vote against Dino was made in jest as a RVS it seems, but Beef treats it as a real vote? Super sus.

Finger of Suspicion Beef.

A. Wow, it's a good thing

I at no point scumread you guys until the page where I actually voted you

.

That's interesting, because when you say "intentionally scummy," it makes it sound like you scumread us, i.e. "These players are playing like scum."

B. The fuck? How is not realising that a vote was an RVS vote an alignment indicative thing? Beefster is super town bro.

According to you we were out of RVS by that point. It feels like Beef is purposefully misinterpreting a RVS vote.

I can't wait for you to pair me/Beef, I'm so ready

This is interesting, because I DON'T pair you and beefster. I always state my potential scumteams as soon as I see them, and you and beef are (well, were) not one of them. Why even bring it up?

No read on the hydra, feels like they're playing in an

intentionally scummy

way, but whatever.

what about this post makes you think i'm shading you?

do you believe i'm shading your alignment, or your skill/quality as a player?

DUDE. THE SERIOUS FRICK.

The answer to your own question is

literally

in the post you quoted.
Either you're stupid (doubtful) not paying attention (likely) or this is insanely scummy. (Occam's Razor)

ughhhh
do i haaaaave to respond to this

do you understand that saying someone could be playing in a way that is intentionally scummy
DOES NOT MAKE THAT PLAYER SCUM

This makes no sense to me. There are only two reasons I can think of for town to play intentionally scummy: to get lynched or to draw attention to catch scum. So either we're a Jester (not possible in a normal) or you're admitting you're scum???

like, given that literally no one in this entire game actually is approaching this argument the way inferno is
i'd have expected brafin to come along and be like "yo inferno stop with the semantics debate, i see what mathdino's saying"
but the fact that he's apparently in lockstep with his partner is just unbelievable/unrealistic

Why is that scum-AI behavior? As stated by Bu, wouldn't scum have backed off by now? And I don't find what Inferno is saying is accurate either. I'm more neutral on you right now. also, scummy =/= scum indicative, right? So why are you so upset that I find this post scummy?

scumread intensifies

Inferno:

Okay, just caught up and after skimming everything since my last post:

-I'm glad I backed off and allowed some other reads to develop. That was only hurting me.

Thank goodness. You have a serious issue with derp-tunneling.

Worst has me all over the place. Not sure where my read sits on him right now.

Town. HAving played with TW before, this is typical town behavior for him.

Icomeum is obvtown.

I'm not sure why this is the case. Please explain.

Beefster has got to be town by that though, becasue his exchange with Iconeum at his entry olny makes sense as SvS or TvT.

Also don't follow this. Exact posts on this exchange please.

Can't decide whether Bu is scum trying to take advantage of a TvT with me or scumpartners with MathDino in a two pronged attack. Either way, I am reading Bu as scum.

I don't agree with this. I see Bu as sort of null right now.

MD could honestly go either way for me as of this post.

Starting to lean scum. He seems SUPER defensive.

Also, I'd like to apologize in advance at how bad we actually are at forum mafia, if our play is as bad as some of you believe. Perhaps our newbie-ness will bring something to the game.

Going to read through again to see what else I can make of all of this.

Inferno:

I would define them as "not very good at playing mafia."

@Beefster: Which part of this is self-conscious?

After some more in-depth thought, while it's probably normal for hydras to be self-conscious about playstyle, it's another thing entirely to be self-conscious about others' reads on you.

I might be falling prey to confirmation bias here...

This feels like wagon-jumping to me.

I think Mathdino is town because my gut is telling me that the worst is town and that Math and tw are the same alignment.

This feels REAL scummy, like a potential scumslip. gut reads are okay, but to gutread two people as being town because one is town seems really odd.

Momrangal confuses me.

Inferno:

Interesting read there Beefster. What about both Worst and MD comes off as town?

I do agree with you on Momrangal.

the worst is being totally goofy, but in a genuine way. I would expect him to be somewhat more serious or more self conscious as scum. He doesn't seem to give two shits about what other players think of him.

I'm not sure I can put my finger on exactly what makes me think tw and Math are the same alignment. It probably is meaningless since they're friends outside the game I think.

Maybe it's just that I'm starting to see Math!Town in other ways and that's just how my gut interpreted it.

And then he completely backpedals. That's super weird in my opinion.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

'Ferno, I say Beef is scum. you in?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

wut
the heck
Brafin, you're gathering information on your own partner's read?
I do not agree on Beef.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Bu, while I can get on board with your response, you still haven't explained where that early read actually came from. You've given no reason for us to be scum other than "frantic and nervous." What is "frantic and nervous" about our play? Not to mention that those two words together are contradictory: Frantic is very active while nervous is a lot more passive.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

I prefer to not answer that question at this time.

Wut
Why are you not answering, Iconeum?

@acyron: I still think it could be TvT. Town has the ability to scumread other town members. That's not unheard of. I still think that the entrance exchange just wasn't was too realistic to be scum.
I'm a little confused by this question; it seems to be looking to put me in a hole that isn't there.

I was interested to see what would make you think that Icon vs. Beefster was specifically TvT and not TvS, especially since you didn't necessarily have a townread on Beefster specifically.

Inferno:

wut
the heck
Brafin, you're gathering information on your own partner's read?
I do not agree on Beef.

Question, and this goes back to my (no pun-intended) beef with hydras. How is anyone expected to read your slot if you are offering up conflicting reads that we can't call scummy because they came from two different people?

Brafin:

Why is two people having conflicting reads scummy?

[InfernoBrafin]

Buju also said there are to many lurkers.

How can there have been when this game is only two days old if even?

Brafin:

This is an interesting point, one I had not considered. Isn't Lurking = NAI?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

but him overly explaining and arguing about something insignificant is actually a personality trait.

I lol'd

Yeah I'm not continuing that debate

Fucking lol when players link me wiki pages in the middle of mafia games

Yo IB check out Slayers Gambit for a wiki page on a strategy that doesn't work

It's about being intentionally scummy early game to get reactions

First, off, that wiki page was defining the term "Scummy." Don't attempt to blow it off with that response because it's not the same thing and you know it.
Second, I have done run a successful Slayer's Gambit, albeit unknowingly. Did my first game on the site. And that's not what I'm doing here. Stop shading corn.

Mathdino is town. I will literally quit mafiascum if math is scum here.
Effortpost tommorrow, too tired today.

Wow huh did I actually roll into my first game with scum Paradox

Also I'm basically down to policy lynch brafin at this point

They're never getting NKd if their reads include gems like
- BuJaber getting annoyed at BJ is alignment indicative
- Beefster scumslipped by saying TW and I share alignment
- Beefsterscum purposefully took an RVS vote as serious for ~reasons~
- Either I think IB is a jester or I'm admitting I'm scum
Hey IB I guess I'm scum
- Mathdino is scum for being defencive

These first two are major misreps. Where did I ever say that Bu getting annoyed by that or Beefster's shared read on you and Worst was AI? Ever? BU was jus tme confused by how agressive the response I got seemed, and the second was literally me just asking questions. I'm not sure how to respond to the rest of this, but I'm going to read back thorugh to see where it comes from. Either way, what you are saying here is really bad.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

First, @Mathdino:
A) Why did you just say something to one line of the post? Ignoring everything else looks like you're trying to avoid points that you simply can't counter.
B) It's funny that you bring up Slayer's Gambit specifically. I don't think that was coincidence. I think you've read Inferno's Meta and knowingly chose that gambit, or are using it because that's what you believe he's doing here. Well, this is just 'Ferno's playstyle; messy and aggressive, while I like to ask questions and feel out scum most of the time.

Inferno:

In response to point A above, it feels to me like the way you are responding in this exchange is in attempt to force a policy lynch on us without really having anything to back it up. PL describes the lynch of a player who is not found to be particularly scummy, but because the player's bad play will hurt the town later on.

-- From Wiki

So what you've done is turn what you're saying about my play from "This is scum" to "this is not scum, but bad and hurtful town play." Which 1) you're already scumreading us, so why are you trying to policy lynch us, and 2) It's an incredibly AoP move on only half a hydra.
Also, when I mention that game, I was not trying to use Slayer's Gambit, in fact I had never heard of it. I simply got lucky in the fact that I used it and drew out scum. My point is not that I used it, but that you're using the "The wiki meta is crap" defense to ignore my reasoning, which is that your use of scummy is not supported by the meta.

Brafin:

Second (Still at Mathdino): #216 feels really weird and fabricated to me. It's coming off as short and kind of almost skirting the questions, but not really doing so.
Third:

Mathdino is town. I will literally quit mafiascum if math is scum here.
Effortpost tommorrow, too tired today.

Wow huh did I actually roll into my first game with scum Paradox

Also I'm basically down to policy lynch brafin at this point

They're never getting NKd if their reads include gems like
- BuJaber getting annoyed at BJ is alignment indicative

Not true

- Beefster scumslipped by saying TW and I share alignment

I have no idea what you're talking about. What post are you referencing?

- Beefsterscum purposefully took an RVS vote as serious for ~reasons~

That doesn't strike you as even a little weird? It was an obvious joke post?

- Either I think IB is a jester or I'm admitting I'm scum

Inferno just clued me in. More below.

Hey IB I guess I'm scum
- Mathdino is scum for being defensive

It's not your defensiveness that pings me, it's how bad your defense actually is. It feels like you're looking for a way to cover up a bad scumread.

Inferno: Beyond this, I've already mentioned how massively misrepresentative the first two are. Nowhere have I said those are AI.

Inferno:

For point 3, it occurred to me another reason to play scummy: you're a PR trying to avoid the NK. But no matter how you spin this, there's no way for you to call our play intentionally scummy and not also call us town. Why would scum play intentionally scummy?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

In post 177, Iconeum wrote:
I prefer to not answer that question at this time.

Wut
Why are you not answering, Iconeum?

Does it bother you that he didn't answer me? Why/why not?

Inferno:

Yeah. The way he did it makes me feel like he's avoiding something. But the way you responded to him earlier also makes me feel like you were avoiding something.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

@Worst: Sorry, response times are going to be weird for me.
The point where I thought your response was off was posts #102 to #104. It feels like that you are avoiding answering Iconeum's question. But based on this more recent exchange, I see it as town oriented.
Also adding to that is that you are very intent in having an exchange with me, much more so than I think scum would. The way you've been pressing on me does not strike me as scum at all.

Matdino is fading more and more away as Brafin and I make more points. The last time I saw the "ignoring points" behavior was from scum, but I'm unsure whether that's the case here. It definitely pings me though.

@Worst again: What was the soft scumslip from Paradox?

Also, I want to point out that #193 is actually bannable.

I'm rethinking my read on Beef. While Mom's play hasn't been the best, I agree, calling questions active lurking this early seems a bit of a stretch.

@Bu, you've laid out D1 reads, sure, but those reads are very weak, and imo somewhat fabricated. I cannot believe that you have been scumreading me on "frantic and nervous" tone this entire time, for example, but tha't's the strongest. None of your reads seem very committed at all.

P-edit:

I agree that Beefster is somewhat white knighty, but I can't tell if that's just playstyle or not.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

I'd like to put out and explain my scumreads, since it feels to me that the game has slowed down. Sometimes these help generate new conversation.

Mathdino:
For the most part, this slot feels sort of town to me. But the whole semantics thing has me kind of uncomfortable, and here's why. Math claims that his definition of scummy is not the same as scum-indicative, but whenever Inferno or I pointed out that something was scummy, even before either one of us scumread him, he treated it like it was. How can he both say that the word scummy isn't the same as scum-indicative when he uses it on others, but it is whenever anyone else uses it on him? It's super inconsistent, and I can't see any townie double-thinking that hard ever. If this weren't the case, I probably would town read him.

Beef:
There's a few things that pings me on Beef.
1) He makes a semi-serious vote, and then takes and obvious RVS vote seriously. That doesn't make any sense to me; he's foregone RVS and then interacts with RVS?
2) His next few posts are weird. He reads us as kind of scummy, MD as kind of scummy, but then says that it's probably not SvS. Then he says that it's probably us because "Math is hard to read at first." Didn't he just read Math?
3) Then he admits that he might be misreading us and does a complete 180 on another player without giving reason, and then OMGUS votes the first person that points it out.
4) He's done little actual scumhunting, just made general statements and kind of skirted issues as they've arisen.
By themselves, they're not much, but together it feels to me like he's scum. But I wouldn't put Math and Beef together as a scumteam. Beef has been super agressive to Math, while Math has just ignored it for the most part. I don't see scum doing that.

More on my third in a bit.

[InfernoBrafin]

Also, I want to point out that #193 is actually bannable.

That's not true at all
Obviously if he's scum he knows I'm town
Go look up how trust tells really work
People say that exact line all the time

Inferno:

"Do not bring outside influences into the game -

this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, "trust tells", alliances, etc.

Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another."

From the site rules.

[InfernoBrafin]

Infenrno:

Wow, this post is bad. Let me break it down:

Yes there is a lot to react to and calling out lurkers now now would be an ok think to maybe do but the game had just gotten out of RVS and there was like one maybe two things to react to.

Why is it insane to believe that there are 5 people who hadn't posted in a >48 hr time frame

So me calling out people for not posting is wrong, but it's perfectly fine for people to say I'm not doing anything useful?

First off, lurking and "not doing anything useful" are not the same thing. Lurking is generally NAI, while "not doing anything useful" implies that you are saying stuff that doesn't really give anything to the game, like IIOA. This is a total misrep.

I see

Pot calling the kettle black.

IB of course completely ignored half of my case on them even when they asked me about it and I explained it again. I don't know what I want more. For you to be town and realize that you don't have a clue how to play with fellow townies or for you to be scum so at least it makes sense what you're doing.

This is A) AoP, and B) you're voting us because of my "tone," Which honestly at this point is quite a bit BS. You're not even really considering Brafin in this. You're not even using my 1v1 with Math as part of your read, you're just telling me to shut up. Once I start to call you out on your "read" is when you start to scumread me harder. It's honestly like you're trying to find a weak reason to scumread me and then back it up with more as time goes on. Really scummy behavior.

Can we lynch either IB or Mom? scum have nobody to go after so they're focusing on me. They know they can't go after someone else. I had an early wagon on me and nobody is townreading me strongly so I'm a good scum target.

We are focusing on you because your play is scummy. You've parroted the same thing over and over again about how my "tone" makes this hydra scum, but you're not even considering Brafin. It's quite honestly a BS read.

Frigging hilarious this. I get called out for not scumhunting in the only game where I am clearly the one doing most of the work. You guys realize post count is not an indication of how much a player is contributing right?

You're not doing ANY work. You're just parroting yourself over and over again about my tone. Second post count is not indicative, but post CONTENT is. Which you have very little of regarding town.

It kinda makes sense to soft-defend lurkers if you are scumpartners with one or more of them.
SO I'm pretty confident there are 2 scum in {IB, Mom, NM, LUV, Sing, acryon, (and paradox though less likely since I'm TR'ing him at the moment)}

This is just wild accusations here. You're literally reading all the lurkes as scum. That's incredibly ridiculous. Why do that? because you don't want to deal with town that's going to put up a fight?

If there is a 3rd scum that would be pretty difficult to figure out but if that were the case I'd have to reconsider all my townreads. Though a 3rd scum probably isn't likely because it seems risky to defend a lurking scum partner if you have another one also in the game. Unless of course the game is as easy as it seems and both IB and mom are scum, that leaves one of the lurkers as their final partner. At least that theory would explain why they haven't gone after each other or disagreed. IB agree that mom is confusing, and that asking questions could be scummy but they low-key defend mom early on.

This is just wild accusation here too. I'm seeing a lot of AfR coming around that I don't like.

Can one of you just bus the other one so it's easier?

What kind of scum crap is this? This is just asking for trouble.

All in all, an incredibly incriminating post. VOTE: BuJaber.
Let's lynch this, Mom.

Going to read and respond to everything else that has happened to catch up.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

There are responses to posts from Bu, Math, Beef, and Almost in here.

Spoiler: Catch up

Also, I want to point out that #193 is actually bannable.

That's not true at all
Obviously if he's scum he knows I'm town
Go look up how trust tells really work
People say that exact line all the time

Inferno:

"Do not bring outside influences into the game -

this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, "trust tells", alliances, etc.

Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another."

From the site rules.

no one actually leaves the site over this
some of the most experienced players here say this shit all the time
what's the purpose of pointing this out dude

This was a passing note more than anything. The fact that he did it has been stored away incase something else comes up in my read on him.

Regarding Not_Mafia: I say wait until he makes a few posts. I think I'm starting to get a feel for his low-content style. Though tbf, I haven't seen him flip. He just doesn't give you much to work with.

I've actually seen him flip scum as his shit-post style. I honestly think it's NAI.

Regarding IB: Like you asked the question of why I found you scummy, and then Dino is the one that responds not you. You obviously will argue that your neutral tone at start isn't AI and that would be fine, we'll argue back and forth. It's not even hard evidence so I am actually open to changing my mind contrary to what you seem to think. However you didn't do that. You just up and ignored it and went back to frantic and nervous. Which btw you can totally be both. A person can be nervous about getting caught so they frantically try to come up with a way to explain themselves out of a jam.

Actually, I can understand how a robotic tone could be looked at as scum. It would make sense for a robotic tone to sound scummy if it played out over a long period. The thing is you made that statement after only a couple of posts, completely ignored Brafin in doing so, and have just been using it as an excuse to scumread half of a hydra all game.

What is AoE?

What is there to answer about your question? I think it's insane that 5 townies would miss 48hours of the game after confirming. You clearly don't think it's insane. It's a matter of opinion.

Your other points are just your pov vs my pov. We are both attacking each other so we both hate each other in the game. It's cool. I didn't do any misrepresentation. If you think I did, then please can you explain what the difference is? Because I don't see it.

This is very much blow-offy. It smells suspiciously of the Relativist Fallacy. Don't like it.

IB saying I'm reactive is clearly bullshit as I have started a wagon all by myself and declared my reads without prompting.

A) Your reads are awful and B) when did I say you were reactive. Or was that James? Either way, what you are doing is being incredibly opportunistic by "stating a wagon all by myself" and giving weak reads without prompting.

Okay I just washed my face. I'll try to keep emotion out of this one.

Momrangel: Your latest posts, especially 281 show me that you are interpreting literally everything I'm doing and saying as scummy.

No player does everything scummy. It is pretty much impossible. So I can only assume that you are finding everything scummy because this is a case of confirmation bias.

There has been lots of discussion surrounding this point in the thread, and I think there are plenty that would disagree with you.

Therefore I really can't see what I can gain by continuing to appeal to you.

Answer me this question though, because I think it's a good one, Why is being reactive even AI? Why wouldn't a townie also play reactively?

For the sake of my own amusement, I'm going to call the scumteam as Momrangal/IB/(Paradox or Iconeum)

I'm probably wrong on at least one.

Definitely at least one. I'm thinking it could be all three. But I enjoy the cattleprodding.

I'm here!

Anything worth reading/knowing yet??

Hey, Almost! Can I see some reads on you regarding:
BuJaber
Iconeum+TheWorst
MathDino vs. InfernoBrafin

And any other things you've noticed?

[InfernoBrafin]

Yes you should read the thread

Why? What is/was so important that needs me to read first hand rather than you tell me about it?

Because there is heated conflict and I'm involved and you need to form your own opinion.

But basically I think it's obvious it isn't SvS so it's either TvS or TvT and I for one would appreciate the outsider perspective if I am to learn anything from this game after all alignments are revealed.

Inferno:

I'm getting a definite "help me scumpartner, I'm having a really hard time getting these two lynched and I want a backup opinion to help solidify" vibe from this.
There's not enough from Almost yet to be confident in a read yet though, so I'm going to file this away with post #193 for later use.

[InfernoBrafin]

Spoiler: Beefster's 180

Yeah. Mathdino's pinging me too. Let's see how this progresses.

Beef!!

How are you reading Math so far?

Leaning scum. His posts feel kinda IIOA-ish.

I otherwise seem to like your posts, but this ends up feeling like convenient hedging for you:
1. "Leaning scum [on Mathdino]. His posts feel kinda IIOA-ish"
2. "[Math vs. Inferno is] probably not SvS, so I'm likely wrong on at least one of them. I need to wait and see how things develop.
3. "If anything IB is the more likely scum."

So are you more or less saying here you think Mathdino is likely town?

If you want to take it that way, sure.

It's too early to tell.

Inferno:

I would define them as "not very good at playing mafia."

@Beefster: Which part of this is self-conscious?

After some more in-depth thought, while it's probably normal for hydras to be self-conscious about playstyle, it's another thing entirely to be self-conscious about others' reads on you.

I might be falling prey to confirmation bias here...

I think Mathdino is town because my gut is telling me that the worst is town and that Math and tw are the same alignment.

Momrangal confuses me.

Alright Beefster, what happened that you did a 180 on your MD read?

I changed my mind.

Inferno:

You "changed your mind?"
No, you need to elaborate on this. WHY did you change your mind?

Inferno:

You still haven't responded to this either, Beef.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

God dammit!

Also, how do I add pictures to my posts?

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Agreed on Not_Maf. At the moment, he feels town.
Math has gone completely silent toward us, which I don't feel like is a good thing. I feel like town would at least have something to say instead of just flat-out ignoring other player's scumreads. But he's still comong off as townie in other areas. Why does he have to be so hard to read?
Bu seems to be trying really hard to "shade the corn" and put mom and us on a scumteam together.
TGP bothers me. It feels like they aren't really contributing, just lurking and barely keeping up.
Is it just me, or is it odd that Beef/BU have the EXACT same readlist? And Beef seems to be soft-defending Bu? And Bu is super flippant about his readlist and lynches?

Right now, I'm leaning toward a Bu/Beef/??? scumteam. Whoever #3 is, they are hiding it really well. It's not mathdino, the dynamic just isn't right for him to be scum with them. Leaning toward TGP or one of those who haven't posted much yet (Not because they're lurking, but because everyone else is striking me as super townie [except math, but that's a whole 'nother story] atm tbh. So if everyone else is town, it follows that the scum is somewhere in the lurkers.)

[InfernoBrafin]

EWBOP Brafin: *coming off as. Not comong off as.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Inferno:

Mathdino, the fact that you are saying that Brafin and I are scummy without actually explaining why is scummy in itself. I sound like you're trying to scumread us without actually providing a read.
Plus, we didn't really even push acroyn. We're pushing BuJaber.

@BuJaber, mind if we call you BJ for simplification?
@Worst, I'm glad that someone appreciates my failures at life.

Whether or not you scumread me isn't really my concern. Your playstyle is naturally scummy, and if you're scum, explaining why is literally anti town for me to do.

Why would I provide reads on everyone else but you in this situation?

Regardless, I generally don't have strong reads on naturally scummy players. The scumminess masks the alignment indicative stuff.

Inferno:

Okay, but this leads me right back to the point of you won't explain what you find about our play that is scummy, leaving me to only guess about what you could possibly be calling out. Right now it just looks like you are using the fact that we're a hydra to call us scummy.

I think that you're throwing accusations at Paradox of scummy play really early, which is odd. I also think that a flash wagon this early can be interpreted as "hunting for PRs," which makes me trust you less. Not knowing your scum or town meta, I don't know what It means for you yet. But I will.

but again

it was of no benefit for me to start telling everyone exactly how you're scummy

because
1. I don't want people to start using my reasons as bad reasons to scumread you.
2. I don't want to give you a road map to getting a townread from me. I want you to play how you naturally play and we'll see what happens.

what you're not understanding is the fact that i wasn't paragraphposting about what made you scummy was actively an effort to not start riling people up about you

and yeah, paradox has been mislynched in 2 different games, once mislynched while i was hard-defending him the entire game
so i believe i have the right to call paradox scummy
it's like you're actively ignoring the idea that a player can be scummy in every game they're in
jaydragonking and momo are obvious examples

In these posts, Math either A) uses our use of the word scummy to assume we scumread him, or B) assumes that when he calls us scummy, people will scumread us even though he admits that most know that's not how he uses the word. It's not consistent, and strikes me as odd.

[InfernoBrafin]

Both: What up, mom?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno and brafin.. right now are you both scumreading mathdino?

Inferno:

I'm actually rethinking my read on him. Tbh, his play has a lot of the same intensity that I feel like I have this game, and I'm thinking that our bagnning exchange was just TvT that was really hardcore. I need to ISO him, and read back through the C&S posts.

[InfernoBrafin]

But I am town!

Why is Buju town and what do you make of me having two followers on Buju?

Also how do you feel about how Buju engages me back?

Inferno:

So far, this is what stuck out. I'm having a hard time sorting the last few pages, so I'm probably going to reread... and reread... and reread.
I just want to point out that this is a really weird way to phrase this question. It looks like scum laying a trap.

Also, I would also like to know why all these people are calling this slot obvtown, becasue I can tell where the scumreads on me are coming from. So I don't understand what part of my play is making me obvtown.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

It's interactions like these that makes feel like Beef and Math not compatible as scumteam. They are too natural and real to be from SvS.

Acron is striking me as scum. His vote seems kind of out there and OMGUS-y. Not much explanation on the vote.

Math, if we explained to you why your play was scummy, it would be detrimental to town, wouldn't it?
See, this is another example of lack of consistency. He expects the meta rules he puts out there to only apply to him (he can call people scummy without scumreading, he's not allowed to explain his reads on others but others should explain reads on him, etc.) It strikes me as a very un-townie way to play. I'm still not prepared to say scum, but it's just can't find justification for it as town.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

But this still avoids my main point, Mathdino. I am finding your play anti-town not because you called us scummy or you scumread us. I find your play anti-town because you seem to have a mentality that only you can do the above mentioned. You don't have to explain when you think other's reads or playstyles are bad, but

@Those of you scumreading me for having shit reads:

Then correct my reads.

You excpect us to do the same for you? When you call Inferno scummy, it doesn't mean scum-indicative, but even though I have agreed with the way you use scummy, when I use scummy to describe your posts, it does? These things make no sense from

any

standpoint, town or scum.

But you keep saying that I don't agree or understand your use of the word scummy and that's why I'm misinterpreting you, which is simply not true. You evasion of the real reasons for my concern now has me thinking you are scum.

Also,

I'm either going to get sorted by the NK, or left alive if scum has me pocketed. And even then, I'm likely to get sorted by the NK at some point this game.

is not true. There is a third possibility in this senario, the possibilty that you are scum. By ignoring a third (and very real) possibily, you commit, I believe, False Dilemma, and also remove suspicion of scum-association from yourself.

[InfernoBrafin]

Mom if I flip town who would you scumread?

Still trying to figure that one out

Brafin:

Same. It strikes me as a very odd question and phrase. Could it be possible (and this is unlikely, but bear with) that Bu is a Godfather, and thinks you are a cop?

[InfernoBrafin]

IB you need to take many steps away from Dino and stop arguing something that's just bogging down this game thread. An argument of semantics is not going to get us anywhere and there are 11 other players to look at in this game.

Brafin:

A) That's why there are two of us.
B) I'm no longer arguing about the semantics of his playstyle. That I understand -- in fact, I use scummy in the same way (unlike 'Ferno). It's the fact that he seems to think that HE can do things that no other player can that has me rather concerned.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

See, this is exactly what I mean. I point out that you are inconsistent, and you feel no need to discuss it with me, you just blow it off. But I HAVE discussed this with Inferno, and he agrees with me; your play is scummy/anti-town not because of how you use the word scummy, but because of a lack of consistency in your posts.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Did I say hypocritical? No. Your posts are

inconsistent.

That's not the same thing, and you know it as well as I do.

p-edit: Don't forget there's two of us. It's possible that as a hydra, each one of us interprets the game a little differently.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

I want to change our vote so bad, but I have been letting 'Ferno do the voting for simplicity's sake. Inferno, can we do that?
(And yes, Math, NOW I scumread you.)

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

I'd also like to point out that nowhere have I felt the need to use offensive or degrading language in any part of my posts. I find your defense neither irritating nor aggravating, and I'm sorry that you find my reads as such.

[InfernoBrafin]

With town!dino? Beef/Bu/??? (Still not sure. Need to Iso them, which I'll do this afternoon.)

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Mathdino's responses feel fake. Starting to be more comfortable with this as scum.

I also see MD trying every different angle to get Brafin to lay off, which makes me think scum trying to derail a tunnel.

Finally, this slot just has me exasperated.

"I explain my scumreads and ask others to do the same because THAT'S GAME RELEVANT"

"I don't explain general scumminess because I'm not your IC and it's not my job to coach you in how to be more charismatic"

And then at the beginning of the game, you said that scummy des not mean that you are scumreading us, but you didn't want to tell us why we were scummy so we couldn't be scum changing their play to look towny?

It doesn't make sense.

I'm okay with lynching this slot.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

No. the screaming rage just completely feels fabricated. This entire response from Math feels fabricated.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

No. the screaming rage just completely feels fabricated. This entire response from Math feels fabricated.

What Brafin is saying is that you are inconsistent by using the term "scummy" one way and then later using it in a different way that doesn't make sense with your first way of using it. It has nothing to do wit the way we are using it. Just you. I don't understand what's hard about that statement.

VOTE: MathDino

P-edit: NO, it does not make sense, because if you are not scumreading us, why would you think that telling us how we are being scummy would help us as scum better blend in as town? See, this is where the inconsistency comes in for me, because with this, you're acting like our scummy behavior is scum indicative and you don't want us to change that, but you insist that you see scummy=/=scum indicative.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

On Beef, there's a few things that stand out for him as scum. I've said most of them before, so I'll go ahead and just quote those.

1) He makes a semi-serious vote, and then takes and obvious RVS vote seriously. That doesn't make any sense to me; he's foregone RVS and then interacts with RVS?
2) His next few posts are weird. He reads us as kind of scummy, MD as kind of scummy, but then says that it's probably not SvS. Then he says that it's probably us because "Math is hard to read at first." Didn't he just read Math?
3) Then he admits that he might be misreading us and does a complete 180 on another player without giving reason, and then OMGUS votes the first person that points it out.
4) He's done little actual scumhunting, just made general statements and kind of skirted issues as they've arisen.

From the more recent posts:
He seems to be soft-defending Bu, which I find weird. Why would town soft defend town? Either you disagree or agree usually. Plus, I have better candidates for a potential mason team...
He's also basing a lot of reads on very gut-based, slightly-meta reads. Now, I have no problem with that initially, since that's how I like to start games. But the problem is that it hasn't stopped. He chalks every read up to gut-reads, and I don't like that.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

A thought just came to me.
Math previously said that I was going to start scumreading him and beef as a team at a point where A) I hadn't formed team reads yet and B) I didn't actually scumread Math. That's weird. Could Beef/Math/Bu be the scumteam?
Like, if Math flips town, I'm still confident in the Beef/Bu thing. But that association thing is super wierd.
Or it could just be scum trying to get town lynched and me off his butt, or it could be nothing at all. But considering the fact that I scumread Math now, it wouldn't suprise me.

pedit: LIES.
Inferno has scumread you from the first few pages, and you scumread us. This is simply not true.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

No. the screaming rage just completely feels fabricated. This entire response from Math feels fabricated.

What Brafin is saying is that you are inconsistent by using the term "scummy" one way and then later using it in a different way that doesn't make sense with your first way of using it. It has nothing to do wit the way we are using it. Just you. I don't understand what's hard about that statement.

VOTE: MathDino

P-edit: NO, it does not make sense, because if you are not scumreading us, why would you think that telling us how we are being scummy would help us as scum better blend in as town? See, this is where the inconsistency comes in for me, because with this, you're acting like our scummy behavior is scum indicative and you don't want us to change that, but you insist that you see scummy=/=scum indicative.

1. i have 0 track record of faking anger as scum and multiple people in this game can confirm that
probably the only time i faked emotions was when i was jester purposefully acting like i was scum

2. okay except i've been perfectly consistent about that
like i read the quotes where you claimed i was being inconsistent and i just wasn't
so

3. because i didn't have a read on you at all?
1/4 of the time, you're scum and i don't want to coach you
3/4 of the time, you're town and i don't want to interfere with how you play the game by nitpicking how you're scummy

Inferno:

1. Yeah, but see, it doesn't feel angry. It's not faking anger. It just feels like you're tying to get this slot to shut up. Which is why I said it's fabricated.
This is honest to goodness just avoiding the point.

2. You don't get to just tell us we're wrong and not explain why. Actually show us why we are wrong. Otherwise, it's just trying to be right without actually being right.

3. Again, this is beyond the point.
Make it clear, Math: Is scummy == sucm indicative or not?
Because if it is, you've been contradicting yourself this whole time, and if it's not, there's no reason to say that you don't want to coach scum, becuase you have no reason to call me scum. The only reason you would suggest that you were coaching scum is if you were scumreading me somehow. But you insist that you were reading this slot as null.
Either way, the things you have said make no sense.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

A) I only paired you with Beef because you said something about it. Post Hoc.
B) Wrong.

Your playstyle is

naturally scummy

,

and if you're scum

, explaining why is literally anti town for me to do.

You literally call us scummy and scum in the same breath. If we're "scummy," you're not reading us as scum. But then you say "if you are scum" implying that you think we're scum.
???

Inferno:

p-edit: you are completely avoiding the point. There is no reason to suggest that telling us how we are playing scummy helps us be better scum unless in some way, shape, or form, you read us as scum. But you explicity deny ever reading us as scum this early. So why even bring it up?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

First, at Mathdino:
I'm going to make this as fricking blatant as possible so you can't straw man it:
In what world does it make sense to say "I nullread you but you could be scum anyways so I'm not going to explain things to you?"
You can't say that this slot could be of either alignment if you nullread them. You NULLREAD them. Making assumptions about someone's alignment is not a nullread.

Also, the fact that every time we point out that something you're using to justify your scumread on us is BS (like the beefster thing), you completely drop it. Very scummy behavior.

Finally,

the idea that i'm basing all my reads around gut is utterly laughable

and what the fuck with speculating on mason teams what the actual fuck

Didn't you not say to C&S that your play D1 was mostly gut reads? This is incredibly contradictory.

@BuJaber:

You're shading it as making random associations. What we are doing is seeing certain behavior that strikes us as odd and trying to figure out why it is being done. That is not "narratives following assumptions." We are pairing scumteams and associations beads on play, not the other way around.

We are hunting individually. Then, once we form a read and are comfortable with it, we start searching for partners via exchange patterns and behaviors. If our read is wrong, we re-evaluate. That's is a normal type of town play.

We're not confidently attributing anyone to anything (except scum.) We're just throwing out role ideas.

How is scumreading someone and then hunting for their partners "reverse scumhunting?"

Finally, your second point, I'm going to ask you the same question:
In what world does it make sense to say "I nullread you but I'm not going to explain things to you because you could be scum?"
Where is the natural progression in this? Where is the logic? What kind of reasoning does that come from?

[InfernoBrafin]

i've tried to defuse/de-escalate the argument about 3 times now

i'm just done, i want that slot out of the game

bujaber does it make sense to you that both of the players in that slot are coming up with the same absolutely inane arguments against me?

like i'm not calling ALL reads on me inane/stupid; A50 and mastina and Beefster (is he on my wagon?) have all actually explained their reads, they're wrong for other reasons than "their cases are 110% trash"

i'm specifically saying that these two players have somehow independently come up with the same bullshit pushes on me, with the same accusations, and the same semantic problems with my play

i believe that makes it more likely they're in a scumslot together

Inferno:

So you're telling me that becaue we're a hydra and we have the same read on 1 person, that makes us scum? Especially since we have disagreed on other points in this game?

That's honeslty like linking two seperate slots as scumpartners becasue they both read slot C as scum. You can just get away with it because we're the same slot. You would in no way make that statement if we were two different slots.

[InfernoBrafin]

@IB - I don't want to continue to talk aout game theory while the game is going on. Do you mind if I respond after the game?

But just as it related to this game the short answer is dino saying he doesn't want to give scum tips and him scum or null reading you are two independent things. It's like hedging your bets. He evaluates that the risk of giving scum you tips is greater than the need to convince town you why he's right. So just in case you are scum he doesn't want to take that risk.

At the same time he has a read on you which us irrelevant. Because he could even be townreading you and the above would apply.

This is all from town pov. His argument was a town pov argument because regardless of his alignment he will always represent himself as town.

Okay, that part makes sense. I understand that they are two separate things.

The question is where is all of the natrual progression in all of this? How do you go from a nullread to "eh, you might be scum" in the way that Mathdino did? Does a town player even think twice about expaining why he finds another player scummy?
I honestly don't think so. Not even if the player he's explaining is being scumread. Because you don't just say they are scum. You say why too.
You don't even think twice about giving that information. It's the same concept: You explain why a certain person is being scummy and that part of their play gets phased out. That's still a scum tip. You don't think twice about dping that to hard scumreads: Why would you even think about it for someone you are only reading as null?
Plus he was completely comfortable explaining why he scumread me, but he refused to explain why I was scummy, which in his opinion doesn't mean what he's seeing is scum indicative. SO why would he care if that part of my play changes?

[InfernoBrafin]

EBWOP: the post written above was by

Inferno.

[InfernoBrafin]

@Almost. I can't discuss the last game we were in together because of site rules, if that helps.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Dang, a lot has happened since my last post!
Something is pinging me about S&C, and I'm not sure what yet. It could just be the driving playstyle, because it reminds me a lot of my first game on the site. The slot seems very, VERY sure that MD is scum. On the cunning scale, from "actual rock I found outside" to "100 evasion in Skyrim," I'd rate this as "Donald Trump as a ninja." Lots of walls, lots of confidence, very aggressive, but is ale to complete dodge around other players attacking their read.

Two things that I don't like right now about MD is that 1) He was perfectly comfortable arguing up a crudfest as long as Brafin and I were stumbling around in our reads, but the moment we made a good point, or asked a legitamite question, or did anything that was actually good reading against him, he immeadiatley shuts up and drops the point, trying to cut us off from another angle. I really don't like that. 2), I'm all for MDs anger being real in the sense that it's real anger, it's definitely not real

town

anger. C&S has made good points about this so far, but my 2 cents is that it's not anger coming from "oh my gosh, this is a crap read and is stupid" as much as "shut up and leave me alone, I'm refusing to cooperate with you." That's very scummy imo.

@C&S: Brafin and I have decided that we are very comfortable with an MD lynch, and we are not yet comfortable with an acyron lynch today.
Also, considering Iconeum's response to your reads, have considered a Chainsaw defense from his as scum being a possibility?

BuJaber is reading me as town more and more as I read. His posts defintely seem to come from a town standpoint.

More later, but I have a LOT of reading up to do.

[InfernoBrafin]

Your "shut up and leave me alone" take is a pretty accurate representation of my anger, yeah.

Dude, every single time I decide to ignore you out of tiredness, you bring up in EVERY SINGLE POST "oh well fuckin Dino here started to ignore us once we made a good point, how scummy is that!"

You think ALL your points are good. The points you make when i shut down on you are no better than your others. It just happens to be when i stop talking to you.

Inferno:

First off, I do not think all my points this game have been good. I am admitting that my game so for has not been the best, and that I've blundered around quite a bit and made some mistakes.

But that does not inherently mean that all my points were bad, either.

Second, stop shading me as an idiot that only makes shitty reads. Because that's not what's going on here, and I know it, and you know it.

Third, when you were all about how we were going to pair you with Beefster, and Brafin came out and said that that wasn't even on our radar for a scumteam, and then came back some time later and said his reads had changed, and you got all high and mighty and self-righteous about it, and then Brafin pointed out that that was blatant Ad Hoc, and you completely dropped the point and haven't mentioned it since but were plenty willing to argue over other matters with us--

How was that "ignoring us "out of tiredness?"
How is Brafin's point about Ad Hoc bad?
How stupid do you think we are that we aren't going to notice that?

I'm sorry that we're saying your ignoring our good points, but if the shoe fits, wear it. Plus, why is it that when we made that point, you completely dropped it, but you were perfecctly willing to attack our other, bad points? Will you explain that to me, why you're ignoring one half of our reads and points and pitching a god-awful fit about the other?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno

Has no one seriously noticed yet that the mod has not confirmed that we are gladiating?

Because if the mod does not confirm that, it's very possible that acyron is making stuff up to try and get a mislynch, and the mod can't say anything without revealing scum.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Inferno and I have been discussing the new developments, and we have a few thoughts we'd like to share.

First: We must approach this super carefully. Neither one of us feels like this was a very town-sided move on acron's part, since both of these players are pretty generally accepted to be town by the other players. He's basically forcing the lynch to two players that would never get lynched otherwise. There's not much town motivation there, but there is plenty of scum motivation: 1) In a TvT scenario, to avoid a scum lynch day 1. 2) in a TvS scenario, to gain massive town cred and protect acryon from further votes. He's pretty effectively derailed the acryon train and it's unlikely to start again anytime soon.

Second: This must be a very well-informed lynch. We can't just all hop on, because this is a prime time to gain a lot of info about several slots. Plus scum might play differently now they are in the clear today.

From a slot perspective, we(That is, Inferno and I)'d much rather have a MD lynch today. We read him as far more scum-aligned as Iconeum, and frankly, his blocker claim is a little weak. The only way he's going to die with a blocker role at night for a while is if he happens to block the night-kill or the scum just straight-up shoot him, which is likely; why would scum leave a blocker, a confirmed PR, to screw with an investigative role that might turn up later? They wouldn't, they're just going to straight-up kill him. The only way Math can possibly live through the night is if he's scum, regardless of whether his claim is real or not. And yet he plays like he'll see sunrise, and be around to protect future PRs.

Iconeum, however, has claimed nothing and therefore has a higher chance of living through the night, because why would scum kill a VT unless they were afraid of Lylo? They won't; they'll hunt PRs instead (i.e. Kill Math)

So possibilities are:
Math is lynched and is scum == YAY! That tells us a TON about the scumteam. Acryon is probably bussing, and Beef/Math, Mast/Math or Maf/Math is probably SvS just by interaction.
Math is lynched and is bodyguard == Not great, but it does tell us, by association, a lot about town/scum lineups. Like, I'd say at this point that if Math is town, C&S, Beef, and Acryon are all definitely on my scumread list.
Ico is lynched and is scum == Meh. If Ico is scum, we literally have nothing to build off of. Most players see him as town and have interacted with him in a townie way (except TW, but I honsetly think he's town regardless). It's good because it gets scum, but it's not super helpful to town.
Ico is lynched and is town == We are now in a bit of a pickle. If Math gets the NK, he's obviously town, if not, hes obvscum for reasons stated above. So it does tell us some about town, but it's still not great.

I will point out that this only works if math doesn't get protected tonight. SO protective roles, please do so.

[InfernoBrafin]

Yes. That's a typo, but thanks for trying to undermine my argument with that.
I just got done with a two hour calculus test on sequences and series and it SUCKED. My head is pounding, my allergies are killing me, and it's only lunchtime and my day has been awful. So please if you don't mind, cut me a little slack. At least I'm trying to keep up.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

@Bujaber:

Wat
The actual heck

Did you even read that post all the way thorugh? Ico is being townread by about half the town. (If I am wrong about that, speak now or forever hold your peace.) If we are hunting for scum, like you say, in what world is the town going to all agree to lynch the townread?

Let me put it this way: convince this entire town that Ico is a better lynch that MD by only using scumreads. Explain why Ico is scummy enough that half of the town townreads him.

Plus, there is also general agreement that both are probably town. (except for us, but whatever) How are we supposed to lynch scum out of two prob-town reads?

The right play is to try and get the info from today and N1 to hit scum tommorow night.

I'm going to put aside my reads today as well and give this alternate scenario: Let's not lynch at all today.
First, if scum NKs tonight, we'll (hypothetically) be at 12, which basically funtions as a N0 kill and gives town a statistically better chance of winning (I think, can someone run numbers on that?). If they decline to take the NK for the above reasons, then've we've reset and we can use today's info to nail down scum.
Plus, we avoid lyncing what is generally considered to be two town players.

Brafin says he's all down for this too, so that's where this slot is gong to move.
VOTE: No Lynch

[InfernoBrafin]

VOTE: No Lynch

[InfernoBrafin]

Let us ask then.

@MOD

can we go to a no lynch today?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

I'm totally glad I made this suggestion.
C&S are scum. If we have a Vig or an SK, shoot them tonight. Trust me SK, you want that slot gone.
Acryon is possible scum.
Mathdino is prob town.

Now, I can't really back up these reads right now, because there is so much content to go through, but I will try to do it as soon as possible!

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Of course I disagree with my buddy again. I see C&S as town, Acryon as obvScum, and MD as potential scum. Their partner: Either TGP, Beef, or Bujaber, leaning Bu. That neat little gambit that Ico pulled has me thinking he's the scum out of that group.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

@BuJaber: Why does this make me scum?

Going to start to explain my reads.
To put it simply, in scum!acyron world, scum!MD just doesn't make sense. Imo, Ico has been townread quite a bit more than MD, so why would scum!acyron put his scumbuddy in this position? I just don't see that happening.
This is not to say that acryon is town. I am having a very hard time justifying town!acryon right now. But scum!MD doesn't make sense in a scum!acryon world.
This combined with what I'm getting from MD's responses, makes me think that there is a fair possibility that he is town.

Acryon's play just does not seem to come from town. It could be possible, but I sincerly doubt it. I'm giving the benefit of doubt right now becasue of C&S, because i can't see them as partners.

But C&S is defintely scum. Here's the first things I notice about the ISO:
C&S gives us a readlist, but there's no specifications on where anyone stands on it. It's all very general.
They take out MD's towncred without actually attacking the reads themselves, hiding behind a "long term interactions" wall.
Here's something interesting: The order of the posts is making me heavily think that this is a case of AbN (Assumption Before Narrative). They form a read and say very little about how they get to those reads, and then begin to force the reads. Seems... informed.
A lot of what C&S walls wit halso seems rather piddly.
Post #547: Is there not such a thing as idiotic scum? Now granted, I don't think my play was that bad, but I know that such a thing exists.
C&S's responses to Ico consistently seem to come from buddying. I don't like that.
This gunsmith guilty thing is really pinging me. Because what kind of setup would have that as a day ability? And we haven't had a N0. So this softclaim seems very weak.
In #866, C&S says he's scumreading Ico. But in post #790, the slot claims that Ico is one of it's strongest townreads? Where did this changes so fast?
And yet he's all for protecting Ico?

One thing is for sure, and that is that C&S+Dino is not a thing, nor will ever be a thing this game.

p-edit: Here's a thought: could Ico+Acryon be a thing?

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

@Math No, It's not C&S, Acyron, and you, in my opinion. It's Acryon, BU, and you. And Almost50 makes a good point in the next post; if Acryon is scum, you are most likely town. The chances of anyone bussing like that are slim.

That being said, anyone who tried to force a Ico lynch is reading scummy to me. With two reads that were unlikely to be lynched, anyone who does a complete 180 after there is no-lynch possibility is probably not playing in town interest. That includes TGP, who wasn't even reading Ico, and Bu, who not only does a complete 180, but then tries to quick-end d1 with an L-1 no-lynch when he realizes he's not going to get away with it. Super scum-indicative play, imo.

P-edit: which means at this point, we have several pretty much confirmed town and one confirmed scum. That's awsome.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Same. Agreed on all points above, Almost50 is probTown.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

cAn someone remind me how we know ther is not roleblocker but there is a strongman?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

You know what's still bothering me? That no one has come up with a good solution to C&S's claim that they had a gunsmith-like guilty on MD, but it was D1 with no N0, and it obviously wasn't incriminating enough to push at a gladiator lynch, but incriminating enough to choke the entire thread with walls.

This seems very much out of the ballpark, but maybe I just missed something in the skim. Would someone like to clarify?

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

While I've just caught up, I'm still not following anything that's happened. I'd appreciate it if the thread could slow down just a tad so I could re-skim this.
That being said, here's what I have observed:

Acryon/Beef/Bu is not an unlikely scumteam. Beef has soft defended both of them, and they seem to share a common goal and scum-mentality.
Pretty confident that Math is just really bad town at this point.
TW is starting to ping me, he could be scum thats PR hunting.
C&S is s=town, acryon is scum. get over it, N_M.
I will say taht I've seen N_M's play before, and this is EXACTLY how he plays as scum. So barring BU from the scumteam, which is also a possibility (I'm still on the fence from day 1) We have Acryon/Beef/N_M.
Beef may be telling the truth, but if he is, he's still scum in my book. I believe it would not be unheard of to see a x-shot roleblocker with a true roleblocker (i.e. jailkeeper), and it wouldn't surprise me to see it as a scum role.
Mom may also be scum. I agree that sending town messages that she is town is super suspect. But that only works in a world where Beef is a town jail keeper.

My scumteam is as follows: Acryon/(Beef/Mom)/(Bujaber/N_M)

Math, may I remind you who it was who moved for the No Lynch? If we were actually scum we would have moved for lynching you, not asked if there was a way for town to avoid a mislynch.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Oh, and we think that A50 is town, so no.

@Mod: votecount plz?

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Wow, look at that, when we say that N_M is prob-scum, we get OMGUSed. Big surprise there.
Math, A) Noted. B) I now agree with you on Bu. I don't even have to Iso him to know that Maf is far scummier. C) Also noted, but I still feel like A50 is town. See that as you will.
P-edit: So you didn't do the night kill? Thanks, that's good to know.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

GAH!
Scum is in Acyron, N_M, Kthxby, beef, mom.
I'm going to start looking at stuff from day 1 and 2 isoed to figure something out tonight, but this all seems so spammy and useless it's helping me 0% right now.

[InfernoBrafin]

the worst is town, or at least not scum with InfBraf. Cheeky scumplay like that isn't his thing I think.

No read on the hydra, feels like they're playing in an intentionally scummy way, but whatever.

acryon is probtown until someone finds me evidence that they open scumgames like this.

VOTE: Paradox

Correct move is to always wagon this guy.

Edit: Long time no see Marangal, acryon
I don't think I've ever played on the same team as either of you?

Brafin:

OH MY GOSH.
How the heck did we all miss this? Isn't this a scumslip?

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Wait, hold up.
Kthxbye, you are aware that a NK counts as a power role action, right?
I'm guessing you are tracker/watcher, and saw A50 do nothing, yes? That picks up the nightkill as well, that's what makes those investigative roles.
So by your logic, he performed no action, but performed an action?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno

A50 is doomed today or tomorrow. He's not going to post anymore as you not give town more posts to examine

You don't know me at all!! Neither Scum!Me (as you've been implying at this point) nor Town!Me (regardless of your own thought or even alignment) would go down that easy. I'll fight back as Town/Mafia/SK/WW/Alien (and surprisingly I would probably do it as a JESTER too).

Did A50 just crumb Jester?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

you know what question would be great to have answered?

How C&S could claim a result on Mathdino when there was no N0!!!!!

I'm going to have to reread on Almost to make a decision, but I'm starting to see where kthxbye is coming from.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

I just want to throw this out there:
I played against scum!N_M on my very first game on the site, and his play now somewhat reminds me of that game. So N_M is not off of the hook imo.

[InfernoBrafin]

@TW: Yes, we are definitely town. I'd rather not out just yet though.

@C&S:

You know what's still bothering me? That no one has come up with a good solution to C&S's claim that they had a gunsmith-like guilty on MD, but it was D1 with no N0, and it obviously wasn't incriminating enough to push at a gladiator lynch, but incriminating enough to choke the entire thread with walls. This seems very much out of the ballpark, but maybe I just missed something in the skim. Would someone like to clarify?

Yes, you did in fact miss something by skimming.

Spoiler: Explanation

you claimed a gunsmith guilty on me before i ever claimed my role

To the contrary! I did not

claim

a 'gunsmith guilty' on you before you claimed your role.

I claimed it after.

I

stated

the gunsmith thing a grand total of once before then, which was indeed before your claim. It served a particular purpose which was loosely but only indirectly related. I had good reason for that but given I've no interest in fullclaiming I shouldn't go into detail. My softing for my role is such that you'll probably understand exactly what I was doing/going for when I flip/fullclaim but before then will remain confused as to what the fuck I actually am. Given that I am firmly of the opinion that the ambiguity doesn't hurt the town and yet helps the town by not helping the scum, I'd prefer to keep it that way.

I elaborate on this further when I actually go through on the claim--

I stated that my mention of gunsmith had a meaning. (By NRG standards, a JOAT with a cop power, which a rolecop qualifies as, would show as having a gun; in contrast, a JOAT with a doctor power, in spite of a normal doctor having no gun, does not make someone appear as having none. I was also referencing roles, in that I was hinting that I could look at Mathdino's ROLE. Because. Yaknow. That's what a rolecop does.)

Otherwise, her saying she had a gunsmith guilty on Dino makes no sense

My rolecop is a night action; I said this on D1; there was no N0 and I was a replacement into this game anyway. It was meant as a breadcrumb/softclaim, yes, but not in that way.

So what you are telling me is: You felt that he was some sort of protective role, so you said you had a gunsmith-esque quilty on him and tried to have him lynched as scum? And that's a a softclaim as a role cop ability?

Help me out here. I'm just trying to understand why someone would use a softclaim to try and lynch what they are now saying they considered a protective role all along.

Plus, why would you claim a gunsmith guilty as your softclaim when it's obvious that there was no way for you to get that claim, since there was no N0? What kind of softclaim uses impossible claims and is that indirect?

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Doing some reading back cause I got way far behind on Saturday.
1028
This has me convinced that A) Mom is scum and B) Acryon is town. No town comes into day 2 like this after a no lynch, and no scum busses their partner this hard this early in the day.
Then C&S definitely comes in super hard with a follow up-vote, which is super scummy (NOT SCUM INDICATIVE -- I look at C&S and see town.) in a Mom!scum world.

Something I just thought of: C&S said that Math was prob scum because they have a roleblocker role. But not only is Math's role not a roleblocker role, Beef's IS. How does Math have the guilty and not Beef? (Just curious here, not reading it as scum-indic. I assume there is some explanation.)

Mom feels flaily to me.
Another possibility: Beef/Mom? Beef "blocks" Mom and Mom "sends" a message.
A50/Mom is definitely a possibility. I'm starting to see where the scumvibes are coming from.

In a world where Acryon is town, so is Not_Maf.

C&S's confbias is BAD in the first few days. Mas, you need to calm down a bit.

More in a bit. I think I'm going to flowchart the entire game so that I can get the feel for interactions. I'm a big fan of hunting by association.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

@MD: I know the fact that I'm forcing this question is somewhat odd, but based on what Mastina has said and done, I think that this question could point us to a C&S lynch if she' unable to give a reasonable answer. I mean, being honest, in what world do you think someone is town, so you crumb your role by faking a guilty on them (and that guilty isn't even possible) and try and get them lynched? It's a reasonable question.
I'm starting to get uncomfortable with how much you want to get me to hush about it, and I'm also concerned about how comfortable you are with this obviously flawed answer from Mastina.

I honestly think MD/Mastina is a possible scum team guys.

@Bu: We are reading up, we're just trying to read back through the game from an objective stand point and dissect it post by post. Perhaps that will shed some more light on the situation.

I also was thinking that there is not scum daytalk, right? We should be watching for that sort of interaction when we read posts.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

While creating my flowchart, noticed that Mom has been pushing for Acryon lynch since day 1. This further confirms for me, at this time without having charted anything else, that Mom/Acryon is not a thing.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

First 10 pages are done for the flowchart. Will probably post the whole thing when I'm done :p
And Bu

THESE ARE THE FIRST 10 PAGES!

I'm aware some of this is made invalid in later posts.

Some things I've noticed:
Math/Tw have had really odd interaction. It feel super fabricated and odd to me.
Inferno and I are idiots for pushing the Math tunnel so hard.
Mom is SUPER scummy, as is beef. I'm getting comfortable with a Mom/Beef scumteam right here.
LUV was townie but disappeared. Strikes me as odd. Like, a lack of interaction that's noteworthy can be a sign of scum (i.e. active lurking)
Bu is also scummy-ish but mostly on bad theory stuff. Not looking like scum.

As of page 10, scum is within:
Mom
Beef
A50
Bu

For those who question, I'm trying to take the view from an standpoint as though I just replaced in and knew only that I, Ico, and TGP are town.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Just stopped to take a break on post #426, which means I'm making good progress. However, I've almost already used up a whole page for this flowchart, so showing it to you guys is pretty much out of the question.

That being said, I have a bit more to go over (and this is completely out of order, folks):

The policy lynching stuff drives me crazy. While at this point I'm willing to say it's not scum-indicative, it makes me want to scream and throw my computer.
A50 comes in with a comment on RVS and super odd interaction with Bu. Not liking that.
Acryon is not posting. :p
The Ico/Math thing cements a T/T there, so Math is conftown by this point.
Bu tries to "gladiate" between us, Mom, and him. Surprised? Not at all. On this point I can agree with Mastina, Bu can come off as kind of nasty sometimes.
A50 also has a nice wall post
Beef/Bu =/= scum/scum Their interactions have been pokey and weird, but not fabricated in the way you expect SvS.
Beef/Tw/Math is all SUPER weird. But Tw/Math is most likely town, which means Beef is... What? His 180 has me pinged too hard to say he's town, but by association, he's not scum...
N_M gets scummier by the post.
When Acyron post though, it's a good one. He's got me on the fence.
C&S, at this point, looks AWFUL. It feels like she's attacing about half of town, and I have no idea why.
There's that "Acryon is town/Math is scum" thing that N_M has going. But if Math = town, N_M is most likely scum and so is Acryon.

AS of post #426, scum is in:
Bu
Beef
C&S
Acryon
N_M
Mom
A50
(Which yes, I know that's more than half of the players left, but this is D1 after all. I still have a lot of sorting to do, about 1450 posts!)

As for scum teams, I've got the following:
No Mom + Bu
No A50 + Acryon
No Bu + Beef
Yes Acryon+ N_M

So scum teams can be, if my logic is correct:
Acryon/N_M/Bu
Acryon/N_M/Mom
Acryon/N_M/C&S
Acryon/N_M/Beef
Bu/C&S/A50
Mom/C&S/A50
Beef/C&S/A50
Beef/C&S/Mom

Will post more either tonight or tomorrow, but probably will not for the rest of the afternoon unless I just have tons of free time.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno

Wait MD.

I have a relevant question before we continue on.
Is this flip most likely going to flip scum tomorrow by associations?

I also am amused by the fact that you want C&S lynched, but are going after the claimed commuter.

[InfernoBrafin]

Don't hammer yet! Answer first!

[InfernoBrafin]

Also, does everyone generally agree with this information? And would he same associations be available without the coming night?

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

@Math: Not from A50's first post. He goes after Acryon in literally the first breath he takes, then goes silent. A50 could be, imo, trying to shade Acryon/make him look like a scumbuddy (Assuming that A50!scum)
@All: I know this is kind of sucky, but could we put off the lynch for a few days? I could really use the time to get this flowchart together.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Remember, I'm looking at this from a perspective of someone who just replaced in. I don't care about anything past #426 yet, all I know is three things: I'm town, Ico was town, and TGP was town.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Great. In that case, I'm going to move for a bold action. Please pardon if this comes off a little harsh or arrogant:

Everyone unvote and minimize posting. Now. Right this second.

This prevents A) A quickhammer from stupid town or scum and B) it lowers the incoming posts, making it easier for me to catch up. Previously we had points where we got 3-4 PAGES in an hour, and if I'm going to catch up, that's just not going to work.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

EWBOP: Please.

Inferno:

Just answer the question please.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Math, answer my questions.
1) Will this flip allow us to lynch by associative tomorrow, regardless of flip?
2) Will we require the night's actions to make a lynch by association?
3) Does everyone agree with your response on 1) if it is yes?

And I'm asking someone to unvote for just a second, because I'm actually trying to do something here.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

A) Next question: Is everyone okay with an A50 lynch?
B) You probably won't want us dead after today.

Also, Mathdino, I know I'm being irritating. But humor me. I just want to see all the information before our slot decides to do anything rash.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

lol.

Okay, I'm not sure how many days we've got left before we have to lynch, but until then, everyone consider ALL the outcomes of the flip and what they mean, and then partnerhunt based on that information. Just to be extra safe. And explore all our options, not just the ones that MD are giving. I trust them, but I want as much for town to work off of as possible. Reread and gather new info, bounce ideas off each other, whatever. I don't care. Just don't lynch yet.

I claim the right to hammer this wagon, and I will do so with as little time remaining as humanly possible. If ANYONE hammers before this slot does, they are scum as should be lynched tomorrow.

[InfernoBrafin]

EBWOP: Oh, and you can take him back to L-1 now. Just nobody lynch.

[InfernoBrafin]

EBWOP on EBWOP: Yeah, we have plenty of time. There is no reason to be lynching for a good while yet.

P-edit: No, to maximize the usefulness of this move, we need to use up as much time as possible and gather as much info as possible. Trust me, it will be worth it. You might have to rethink your gamebreaking plan tho.

[InfernoBrafin]

I'm caught up, it's just James trying to do a reread. But trust me, if we stall out the game today to gather reads, it'll be super helpful to us in the long run.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Probably not add as much as flip it all on its head.
Well I agree in some scenarios it's not good to use as much time as possible, I think that in this situation if we stall out D2 for long enough we may be able to push into a town win.
p-edit: LOL

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno

So. I've been looking at James' flowchart over his shoulder as he writes it.
And yeah. There's no way anyone else in this thread is going to understand it except him. Heck, I don't understand it!

I really think if the option presents itself, we should let A50 lay and lynch C&S. And then, should it come down to it, we do the same thing that I want to do with stalling, but with Mastina as the lynch. Do you think you could rework the plan for the scenario with Mastina lynch and IB as confirmed town?

If not, cool, I'd just like to consider that as an option.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

THANK YOU JESUS!

Just got to the gladiate claim. Going to run some stuff about y'all on it, and I'll snap a pic and send you all page 1 of the flowchart (Yes, page 1...)
Correction, I'm not going to "Run stuff by you." I'm going to make a definitive claim.

Scumteam is C&S/Acryon/N_M. I'm sure of it, and I'll explain why momentarily. But first, other important items...
A50 is repeated y evasive with Bu. Why I don't know.
Beef makes some super odd posts. Don't know what to make of that.
TGP has some strong mid-day reads.
If I'm wrong about all of this (which I guess is possible, but if I am I'm going to cry) Mom over Bu all the way. By far Mom has been the stranger on in all interactions. I'd put A50 with her, too.

Now, onto the reads...

We were right. Acryon's use of his ability was a gutsy, scum-indic move.
But not in the way we thought.
I've noticed as I've made my chart that Ico and MD are frequently interacting in a very town way with another. They agree and disagree civilly. They build on each other's reads. and they both have extremely town-sided play. It almost comes across as a two-slot Hydra, and there's even indication that TW wants to jump on board late in the chart. All in all, they are all town-based players that are creating a powerful team and foundation for town. And then they focus in on Acryon.

Now, scum isn't oblivious (they can't afford to be) and there's no way they miss this. They know that if these two player build a team, scum is in trouble, because when town unites and starts targeting scum, it gets super scary fast. They have to get one of them lynched. Today. But Acryon, the scum "saving grace" can gladiate and make the two big boys go at each other instead, resulting in a lynch. So C&S agrees to the lynch and draws a large part of town onto it, to set up the claim and use.

Now, Acryon is genuinely panicky and nervous when the wagon starts, using AtE to defend and generally trying to worm away from the lynch. Likely scum.
C&S looks good at first, but if you take the time to read his walls (which I didn't the first time) you find that there's much less fact than opinion that appears to be fact, something that is also scum-indic.
But their damning nail is their association.
Who has been pushing for MD to get the lynch all game? Who starts the wagon on Acryon finally rolling? Who has tried unsuccessfully to discredit Ico and MD beforehand?
Carrot and Stick.
Who has been saying that Acryon is obvtown? That MD is obvious scum? Has contributed little but when they have has been in support of C&S all the way?
Not_Mafia.

Scum!C&S, scum!acryon, and scum!N_M all have one goal: to take out the most powerful scumthreat and the biggest boon to town: Ico and MD.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

KK, will do.

We are Mr. Saturn, a quirky being from Saturn Valley that gave Ness and friends some really weird coffee.
We are a One Shot Double-Day Maker aligned with town. With this, we can create an extra day phase after a lynch. This dayphase will be as long as the time left on the clock at the time of flip, unless it would be less than 7 IRL days, which would make it 7 IRL days. No lynching is an option. We must submit during the day we wish for it to take effect before twilight. We also may not use it during MyLo or LyLo.

That's why we want the day to last as long as possible: we can give us an extra 7 to work with if we do, which is good if we (Which isn't going to happen now) mislynched, so we could get new reads on stuff.

Also, I am going to get out there now and say that N_M is definitely the weak point in the scumteam I developed. I think he's scum as of #664, but there's always the chance I'm wrong. So I will say that From a current standpoint and not that of the flowchart, Bu, Mom, or Beef could all be alternates for that slot. But that's not what my flowchart tells me, and I'll beleive that more than N_M any day.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Why? With two pretty much confirmed scum, why wouldn't we wand to lynch them both today?

[InfernoBrafin]

@MOD: Make the town some fricking awesome coffee. (Activate doubleday!)

We're staying up all night, boys!

[InfernoBrafin]

The next action of this slot will be:

VOTE: LYNCH THE FRICK OUT OF ACYRON

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Also, I want to let everyone know that I have another claim.

I am the Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out of Its Ass. Just me. Not the entire slot. Just Inferno390. James has no part in this.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Okay, what the literal crud.
CRAP HAPPENED while I was gone.

But I have noticed a trend in a few players in thread, and before I continue my flowchart, I want to make something very clear:
C&S IS NOT SCUM UNLESS ACRYON IS.
If Acryon is town, while C&S is scummy-looking, I would not say they are scum. It just doesn't make sense from the flowchart.
So for those who are placing C&S on your scumteam for my reasoning and not Acryon (Yes, I'm looking at Bu,) it's an all or nothing scumteam -- except N_M, who could be town. Don't try and splice it up to just get one of the three lynched.

Also, Acryon is bussing hard. Has anyone else noticed that?
Now enough from your friendly flowcharter. I have to get my homework done so I can get the rest of D1 charted. No one do anything rash until I get back. Kthxbye.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

From a current standpoint, I would also be cool with such a lynch. Not sure what objective me says about that tho. Going to flowchart for a while this evening while I clean up music files.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

I didn't get as much time to get my flowchart going as I thought, but I would be cool with a A50 lynch. Let's not be super hasty though, we need to take our time and work stuff out as town. Let's make the most of this:

I'm on post #790, and I'd like to say a few things.
KTB is prob town because of the whole No-lynch thing.
Mom's quickvote on Ico has me concerned. So does Bu's.
Bu also has what appears to be faked confusion in an interaction with TW. Not sure why.

C&S almost threw me. They really did. Their first posts were rather town, esp. at the NL move, despite the blatant bussing. I actually had to take a step back and rethink my scumteam.
Then I stepped out of Flowchart mode and into "I've always been here" mode, and I found the problem.

1: Anyone who claims a vig that does not vig the fuck out of acryon will be lynched.

No seriously. Cannot emphasize that enough. If a vig exists in the game, they shoot acryon tonight. NO excuses. No alternatives. No justification is acceptable. None whatsoever. Failure to vig acryon WILL result in your lynch later in the game.

2: We are no-lynching today.

We are not lynching Mathdino.
While I acknowledge theoretically there's the lolwifom behind gladiating a scumbuddy, acryon is a scumfuck who was going down and just gladiated two of the players overall most widely townread and strongest in being proactive AND both of them just so happened to be advocating for his lynch.

They are town.
We are not mislynching for the sake of lynching D1.
We are NOT going to lynch someone we already know is town.
Just because "but they could be scum in theory!". Sure they could be scum in theory, but they AREN'T. They're town. Period.

VOTE: No Lynch.

Any questions?

Iconeum is a backup of my role. (Something I guessed at D1 which is one of the reasons I was defending him so adamantly--I don't know HOW, but somehow, I just

knew

that he was a backup JOAT specifically.)

My JOAT has an investigative action I am not disclosing at this time, but this is why I doubt Not_Mafia has anything indicating acryon to be town.
My JOAT has a roleblocker--this is why I know scum don't have one, because RB vs. RB is an ugly interaction moderators want to avoid. (Theoretically speaking, scum could have a jailkeeper I guess since RB vs. RB variant isn't as ugly, but as a general rule of thumb, mods avoid doubling down on roleblockers.)
My JOAT has a protective action I am not disclosing at this time. This is why I counterclaimed Mathdino, but indicated our roles could coexist as town a belief I maintain to be true.

The nature of my role is such that it is a role which would fit as a scum role, thus my comment about it.
The nature of my role is such that because my protective in spite of being stronger than a bodyguard is only one-shot is why I believe Mathdino's bodyguard claim and also believe that the kill was strongmanned.

I'd prefer not to flavor-claim since if I did that might give away the exact investigative/protective powers I have (I don't know how closely associated flavor is to ability), and I'd very much prefer not to claim what specifically my investigative/protective powers are and I CERTAINLY would prefer not to claim what action if any I took last night at this time until I deem such information pertinent, but these are all important facts to know which I feel would be lost if I died before revealing them, so here they are.

Yeah, I have a question:

The "standard" JOAT is a one-shot Cop, one-shot Doctor, one-shot Vig, and one-shot Roleblocker.

-- Wiki

Where's you're vig ability?
You don't have one, do you? Because you don't need one because you have a nightkill because YOU ARE SCUM.
You won't claim because you blocked MD last night. There is no Strongman (Something I doubted anyways), there's just an inspiration of parinoia in town. Because If this is truly a Role Madness game, you can never say for sure the exact compositon of scum or town. I mean, look! There's another RB/JK role, JUST LIKE YOU SAID THERE WOULDN'T BE.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

In short, for those who are failing to comprehend, C&S said that anyone who had a NK should be shooting Acryon, else they were scum. He then proceeds to claim a role that SHOULD have a vig ability, but for no stated reason does not.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Agreed. I also think, however, despite any of James' thoughts, that C&S is as scummy as frick and should be lynched tomorrow at the very latest.

[InfernoBrafin]

Okay. Yes, I'm looking to get second opinions and start making discussion, I guess I'm not going about it very well. :p
I am caught up BTW. I just am finding a total review of the game state really refreshing and connective. It's helping me scumhunt for sure.

For KTB, I feel like she's most likely town because when the NL movement started shortly after the gladiate, she hopped in whole-heartedly, unlike other players did later, and didn't ever change it. I feel like that's unlikely to come from scum.
For Mom, I have no idea where I got that from. I must have misread beef as Mom or something. That was unfounded. But Bu 666 votes unquestioningly for Ico two posts after the gladiate, without any reads or conversation. I don't like that.
I think I have Bu and Mom backwards. But still,Mom has an interesting "fake confusion"-vibe post on 769. I don't like that either.
N_M is starting to drop off my scum radar. Like, after the gladiate his actions become very townie IMO.

Thoughts?

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

LOL it's because I can't read my own freaking flowchart. Go figure.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Haven't had time to push my flowchart at all, but I just read through everything and something came to me that I would like to share:

What about beef/Mom? Beef is a RB and Mom is a ninja. That explains why Mom won't hammer, why Beef can block, the Ico kill without a strongman, and a whole host of other things. Plus, we're all forgetting that Acryon is a traitor.

A Traitor is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, as long as it:
is Mafia-aligned
knows the identities of all of the Mafia team
identity is not known by the Mafia team, although they should know a Traitor exists
cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team, and (unless Bulletproof) is killed if shot
is endgamed if all other Mafia are dead
gives a "guilty" result to Cops, an "innocent" result to Gunsmiths, and a "Traitor" result to Role Cops
(And I assume get no NK)

Now, I'm assuming that we're in a normal game, even though it is themed, but it's quite possible that Acryon, by being traitor, allows there to be a 9/4 balance in players and there to be two scum remaining.

Thoughts?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno

Yeah, there is going to be no movement from Math.
You know why?
He's got a scumbuddy here somewhere (perhaps N_M, though I somewhat doubt it), and so his partner did the killing last night!

It makes sense considering the number of convenient things that have happened for Math this game.

[InfernoBrafin]

Mhmm.

Tell us, Math, why that doesn't make sense.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin

Acryon was a traitor. The mafia traitor does not always know his partners.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin

I'd argue that you've used AtA and some shady "ynch me" claims to make yourself look like town.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

See, I knew that was going to be your response, and Brafin beat me to the point.
Yeah, Traitor doesn't always know his partners. That's a really lame excuse to not be scum.

I really am starting to think your trying to hide behind the bodyguard claim.
VOTE: Mathdino

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Yeah, and you don't think town knows that?
I think you just don't like the pressure.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin

Didn't you just say D3 its very unlikely for there to be two scum?

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin

Shooter LOL how ironic.

That being said, I'm pretty sure that was a scumslip.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin

Didn't you just say D3 its very unlikely for there to be two scum?

Ooh, is this a scumslip?

i'm literally playing a shooter right now i don't have time to wallpost

We don't care. Unless it's a real emergency, we're voting you.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

So this all revolves around the idea tat Beefster has to be conftown? That's mighty convenient.

p-edit: Except that confrims nothing, becasue YOU could be the strongman and be partners with N_M.
There are ways for you to be scum that you are not giving.

[InfernoBrafin]

Mhmm.

Tell us, Math, why that doesn't make sense.

Okay here.

You're confirmed town, and Marangal is close to conftown by way of townslip.

If I have a partner, it's one of the following:
the worst
Beefster
Not_Mafia

the worst is going to have a result on Beefster. If Beefster is conftown, I'm planning on lynching N_M. If Beefster is NOT conftown, we lynch him and you can have me checked all you want.

So if you want to lynch me today rather than my hypothetical scumbuddy, you better have a damn good case on why it's

me/the worst.

Where did this come from? I thought we were townreading TW. iN fact , I KNOW we're townreading TW

Scumslips don't happen. I always act as if the worst case scenario is happening (and I'm on record for this in a bunch of games). I considered Kthx as a busplay but his townflip makes me reasonably certain there's

either 2 scum

, or

Beefster is literally the last scum

.

The point here is that in a situation where you have 2 results on who DIDN'T perform the nightkill, it's absolutely ridiculous to lynch someone who's essentially confirmed not to have performed the kill.

We know for CERTAIN that there's

either a strongman

, or the scumteam is literally

me/Beefster

(which would explain both the Icon/mastina kills).

Quite literally a contradiction. :p Not a fan of this.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin

A) Repeating yourself isn't helping. We can read.
B) Who got Acryon lynched?
C) If Beef is scum, he's scum. Obviously that does not stop you from being scum though as you said in 2431.
Or didn't say in 2340
But if there is two scum (like you say) then you can be one of them and your buddy can perform the nightkill, giving you an innocent.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

First off, Acryon was a traitor. So how, as scum, would you have known that he was a traitor?

Second, you've already tried to back off of your sacrifice lynch this game once, which BuJaber more or less shut you down on.

p-edit: Dude, I gamelynched on that game based on mechanics and logic. You just didn't see it because I lost the post because internet is stupid.
Plus, I literally took a crack at mechanically solving the game the day before in that game.
This is major AtP and also stupid shit that I am willing to lynch over, because no way this come from town.

p-edit:
Because something tells me that Beefster is not going to come back as conftown, and you know it.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

And so you sheeped Brafin's flowchart because...

I didn't say I solved it. I said I took a whack at solving it. Big difference.

And knock the fricking AtP off. This is not coming from town at all and I can tell that it's being said with the intent of pissing me off.

If you're willing to die at LyLo, well, if we mislynch today, we'll lose outright, no matter if there are two scum or not. So I think it's time for town to cash in on that claim. If anyone should be policy lynched, it's you, becaue you've coasted on your claim literally all game, whcih has shown to be weaker and weaker as the game goes on, AND you've already tried to weasel out of that deal once.

[InfernoBrafin]

Why?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno

Because, and this is really simple, Math, is that the only way you would know how TW's result is going to come out is if you are scum.

We will not KNOW anything, because you could very well be scum that has setup a situation where you can try and convince town to mislynch based on bad evidence.
For example, N_M/Math could have some sort of way to block TW's result. Then you'll lynch based on the fact that he's not "conftown."

You can try to dissect this however you want, but there are always variables that you can "forget" to mention. Part of this is trust. And right now, I'm not trusting your claim.

[InfernoBrafin]

Yeah, but that only works if YOUR CLAIM IS NOT MADE UP, WHCICH I THINK IT IS!

then we could easily have

one investigative
one protective
one investigation immune
one traitor

and still have one of those two be town.

P-edit: Beefster, as much as I hate to admit it, you may not come back as conftown. Not because you aren't town, but because there's been some sort of block that prevents the confirm from occurring.

Another thing I am noticing is that every time Math gives us a "plan," the one link that we can get as little information as possible from town on is killed at night. Anyone else noticing that pattern?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

UNVOTE:

[InfernoBrafin]

InfBra since you're the only slot I know absolutely cannot be scum I'm going to annoy the crap out of you.

Assume the townblock is {Math, InfBra, TW}

Who is scum in this scenario?

Inferno:

Would you elaborate please?
Also, I'm starting to look at N_M.

[InfernoBrafin]

I assume nothing.
However, given those parameters, I would lynch in order of N_M, Beef, then Mom.

P-edit: Now THAT'S lynchable. Switch the last two based on that post alone.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

I have a game plan for the next night:
No lynch today. I think that's safest, considering we don't know if we're in MyLo or not.

then:
Beef blocks Math
TW checks Beef
Mom sends to IB
N_M targets Mom
Math hoslters
IB does nothing

I think that that makes is impossible for scum to do anything without us knowing about it. If anyone has any thoughts or comments, please speak now.

P-edit: Oh, and based on the last VC, TW/Mom is confirmed as not a team, because they would have already quickhammered for the win.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin

I don't think anyone has actually CHECKED TW, honestly. Sorry TW, but I'm a little paranoid after last game. We need to hydra sometime btw.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin

Problem is, of all the unconfirmed players, all three of them could be scum.
Mom's messenger stuff is crap, and her last interaction has me thinking she's scum.
This is literally N_M's scum game, so likely scum.
But Beef keeps saying he's town, even though we can't prove it.

The optimal choice tonight is to check beef if we don't lynch him, but I have no idea what to do.
I'd like to declare INTENT TO HAMMER.
Hoping that this will shed some light on the situation.