VARSOON VARIETY HOUR : GAME SCRAPPED

[Reasonably Rational]

Btw,

-Hydra isn't activated yet, but inevitably-it'll-be-Aristophanes doesn't take long to activate hydras, but at the moment can't post within it for this game.

-For the most part, I'm intending to let Yume drive. I have a very, very, VERY bad tendency when I hydra with players to more or less smother them out--yet I'm only in this game because Yume was kind enough to offer me the chance to hydra, so at all costs I want to avoid that. The IDEA is to let her do her own thing and to only do my thing when it doesn't interfere with her thing and/or when she specifically wants/needs me to do my thing (e.g. needing feedback). I don't intend to slack off, but I don't intend to rob her of her chance to play.

In other words,
No Worries, For those who want a Rest from me; you'll get that during every Day phase.

You didn't smother me when we hydra'd!

<3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, holy shit, I somehow missed Skybird in the signups.

Hi Skybird!!! Missed you in the time I've spent not playing Mafia!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

(THIS IS WHY WORDING IN ROLE PMS IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE MY INTERPRETATION OF THE ROLE WAS A GAMEBREAKINGLY POWERFUL ABILITY AND YET V IS TELLING ME HE MEANT SOMETHING ELSE WITH THAT WORDING. /rant )

THAT IS WHY IT'S IMPORTANT TO TALK TO THE MOD AND CLARIFY EVERYTHING, ESPECIALLY IF IT SEEMS LIKE IT MIGHT BE TOO POWERFUL.

Preferably BEFORE you come to the thread and start oversharing.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, mastina, is it a rule that you HAVE to start every game making some claim about your role?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, with the claim Mastina made, my first assumption was that it was merely a means by which their slot gained mana, and that they were likely R or R/X, with the possibility that they had a very expensive card to use and thus making sure they got that first mana would make or break their ability to play the card.

Since a retraction occurred...I no longer have cause to believe that this unspecified ability is mana generation related, or otherwise related to their color.

In any case, I don't think there's any reason for them to claim more about their role at this time, and pushing them further on that subject is almost certainly anti-town at this juncture.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Varsoon: TECHNICALLY I NEVER CONFIRMED ALL I DID WAS ASK YOU A BUNCH OF STUFF THAT MADE IT OBVIOUS I HAD READ AND UNDERSTOOD MY ROLE CARD.

js.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I wonder who has a pregame ability to utilize in these 24 hours, and what will happen when it comes about?

Current guess is scum influence on which plane we'll be in each phase.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I wonder who has a pregame ability to utilize in these 24 hours, and what will happen when it comes about?

Current guess is scum influence on which plane we'll be in each phase.

-Cerb

Hi town. How you doing?

I guess that line of questioning is silly and will lead us down a path of ruin.

I'm fantastic, thank you for asking! Trying to get synced up with my other head, and taking a bit of a break from work because I've been focusing on the work shiz all day. ^^ How are you doing?

And yes, it might not lead us down a path of ruin, but I'd rather not go there. Mastin is smart, if she didn't actually claim the whole thing and she's town, then not claiming it is probably a reasonable option. If she's scum, then whatever they claim will be perfectly reasonable, just like their refusal to claim will be at this point. Besides, there are other details about that whole situation that make it a lot more helpful to not push them on it.

@Chara: I'm sad that you're a miller, and happy that you're a miller. Sad because now I need to be paranoid all game, happy because if I can get past my paranoia, I get to know you're on my side!

@Maid Cafe: Noted. Not going to be giving you anything, but, good to know.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The reason I say that is people will make assumptions based on their role PMs. This is a Varsoon game. That means heads out of mechanics and eyes on the prize lynching scum.

How do you say this stuff and town read mastina for having a role.

~B

Because mastina is mastina. She crumbs as either alignment but an outright factual claim isn’t something she does as scum. Whether it’s a Varsoon game is irrelevant.

This is a true statement, though I wouldn't go so far as to say she WOULD NEVER do something as either alignment. She does tend to avoid outright lies though, that is true.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Chara: I'm sad that you're a miller, and happy that you're a miller. Sad because now I need to be paranoid all game, happy because if I can get past my paranoia, I get to know you're on my side!

i sure hope i can be town with you two for once. :>

i'm happy to be a miller for a second time. it's a part of my ongoing crusade against policy miller lynches!

pedit: hey, beeboy? i think Mark is town. or, to be more accurate, i believe they believe this. they could still be scum who believes this, i suppose.

Seconded. They're making a true statement, which is not indicative of their alignment.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

mastina's claim was anti town yes but anti town doesn't=scummy it was purely NAI she would've claimed that as mafia and town to help whatever side she's on gain an advantage the fact this is a topic of debate is silly
~Maki

This should be in your PT with beeboy to keep him from spamming the thread with lines of inquiry you don't agree with. <3

OnTheMark, are you going to make me go alt hunting to identify you?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

mastina's claim was anti town yes but anti town doesn't=scummy it was purely NAI she would've claimed that as mafia and town to help whatever side she's on gain an advantage the fact this is a topic of debate is silly
~Maki

This should be in your PT with beeboy to keep him from spamming the thread with lines of inquiry you don't agree with. <3

OnTheMark, are you going to make me go alt hunting to identify you?

-Cerb

Let’s just say that I have been reborn and doing things before I would not. I don’t like alt hunting but if you must you must.

You should probably make less arguments based on knowledge of individual playstyles if you don't want the more thorough among us to want to confirm how trustworthy your information is.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Still don't understand how Venmar is out the townblock, but whatever.

Why would Venmar be *in* the townblock?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Your line of inquiry is confusing to me beeboy. Either I'm misunderstanding something about the position OTM is holding, or you are.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Answered mentioned investigative roles

You haven't mentioned investigative roles this game a single time?

~B

^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, Beeboy, I was the one misunderstanding things. You were referring to the post OTM made about thinking mastina is town because what she's done doesn't make sense for scum!mastina, and I misinterpreted your post as you thought OTM was scumreading mastina somehow.

I get it now. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Chara, can you please elaborate on your miller claim. Mainly if you're a universal miller, or if it's just alignment type investigations that your passive affects.

Regarding OTM: I find it weird that they never specified investigative as as problem for mastina, instead focusing on the rhetorically limitations an early fake claim would place upon her, but somehow thought they had mentioned the obvious threat of an investigative catching mastina in a lie. Seems like an unlikely mistake for scum to make(more town poorly expressing their thoughts than scum being inconsistent), but the slot is worth watching.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

It's super like duh, but you SPECIFICALLY referred to nonexistent posts mentioning investigatives as your response to maid cafes line of inquiry. That's what's weird to me. Not the reasoning.

I do think you're not giving mastina enough credit, and overestimating how much the claim mastina made would limit her as scum if untrue, but it's a reasonable perspective.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And given that Reasonably Rational is just about the most powertown hydra in existence regardless of

I appreciate this part of your post. <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, Taly claimed a high utility scum role. That eh...makes me torn, for obvious reasons. I get that the roles were made before alignments were assigned, but the act of claiming such a role is *much* better for scum than town(since Taly just outed an investigative and can no longer catch scum lying using their role).

:-/

Also, haven't heard from Drixx.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I wish people would actually talk with me instead of at me.

And I think one of Taly or RR is scum. Not necessarily an either or just at least one. I don’t like what Cerb did there.

I also wish people would explain Tabor to me and talk about how Taly doesn’t interact with recent stuff.

So you're proposing that either I'm scum attempting to make badtown look like scum, scum with taly trying to distance from him, or....what? I don't see what it is about *my* play that influences your read on Taly.

There's nothing to explain about Tibor, I've never played with them and they haven't done anything worth paying attention to, imo. Also not sure what you mean about taly not interacting with recent stuff. I haven't seen them come in and post while ignoring things directed at them, so I really don't know what you expect anyone to get out of them not being here since the last time they were here.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm confused reading this conversation

mastina's claim was anti town yes but anti town doesn't=scummy it was purely NAI she would've claimed that as mafia and town to help whatever side she's on gain an advantage the fact this is a topic of debate is silly
~Maki

Mastina's claim is anti-town but NAI?...

Also, claiming is both a blessing and hindrance to everyone, regardless of their alignment. I doubt any of us have normal roles or abilities, and I don't know if many have synergy with another.

@Chara Also interested in the fact you didn’t answer my beeboy question.

Has it played with beeboy before I wonder?

i feel like i was ignored here. :<

i'm a miller. i'll investigate as The End. thought about waiting until after pregame but there's really no reason not to claim now.

I feel more good about this claim than uneasy. I've been a Miller before, and I know personally, claiming that early is most helpful to the town.

So while flavor or mechanics do not reflect alignment here; I like what I'm seeing from

Chara

.

hey, let's everybody all claim how they get mana! that's a great idea.

To my understanding, I have a

very inconsistent

way of acquiring mana. But primarily, two ways:

1)

Not using my Planeswalker ability

2)

I target someone with my Planeswalker ability. For 2 phases, I gain Mana the same way they would, and I gain their abilities. I can only do this once per dayphase.

I'm literally a temporary copy-cat.

i'm a miller. i'll investigate as The End.

You're the me this game!
...Except you'll actually be nightkilled rather than be taken to 3p lylo.
(That being said, I anticipate being dead before lylo this game, not by lynch.)

Pretty sure most people read their abilities and thought the same thing.

Trying to townblock on page 5 feels kinda insane to me.

I read the whole thread but most of it felt pretty meaningless. I'll be back when we can vote.

predit: oh look its mastina. looking forward to finally playing a game with you.

No response about Mastina's claim, though? ...Because it's affected by votes based on what she's stated.

Okay, I might see it. These posts are weird. The second one would be fine, if not for the existence of the first one. They were clearly around and reading etc, and chose not to post expect for a useless bit of fluff, then went back and responded to a bunch of older stuff, out of order even, so it's even less likely that they were just skimming previously and then came back and read. Either they were ISO'ing people, seemingly randomly, skimming and saving stuff to respond to later(when those responses weren't exactly extensive, so...why not respond to them immediately), or going out of their way to respond to things in this weird way.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

In regards to your play it feels horrible like you’re trying to put a reason down to avoid interacting with my original points.

You overestimate your significance to me. I literally have no idea what those original points you think I'm avoiding are. :-/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hi, guys. I didn't want to jump in when I am in the middle of work, but I would like to point out, Gamma and I had discussed yesterday in our PT that I should kind of take the reigns early on before he comes with his big catch ups and posts. I was in Court this morning and am now at work and need to mull over what's been said, probably re read and whatnot.

Also, don't expect me to follow up on saying that someone's argument makes sense. Even if I'm not buying into an argument I can generally tell when they are based in logic and when they are based in lies and misstatements. While I don't agree with Beeboy, I would use that to get something of a town lean, that's what I want to do, hear reasoning, and use that rather than the conclusions, to determine if someone is being scum.

Finally, despite being anime and not the best anime ever (Garfield) a vague recollection of what I have read tells me that Maid Cafe is a townlean for me.

P-Edit: Stop massclaiming.

-Tibor

1) Why do you feel the need to clarify this situation?
2) If such a need exists, why didn't you make this statement about your intentions yesterday, after the decision was made?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Taly: Let me be more precise: Scum are *less* likely to lie about their role, now that they know a means exists by which they could be caught. I mention in that same post that I'm aware that roles and alignment were generated independently, but I say your role is a high-utility scum role because it's *higher* utility for scum than town, since scum!you would have teammates you could duplicate, in addition to the ability to rolecop people.

@Varsoon: So, being on Dominaria has no public effect?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: Maid Cafe

VOTE: Iconeum

Perhaps you should both reiterate your reasoning for these votes, because this game has(as someone already said) clearly passed beyond RVS.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Varsoon: So, being on Dominaria has no public effect?

Correct.

BOO.

Screw you scum, if this was your choice(and if it was, this indicates that whoever is on the scum team is familiar with the source material/the type to look up the wiki on stuff, in order to make the choice that told everyone else the least, and which could easily be passed off as the mods default starting place).

@Chara: Fine. I'll go figure it out.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Skybird, Creature, RR, Shinding D townread.

Maid Café should respond to 237. I love how she bashes OTM for not responding, yet doesn't answer herself.

Maid scumreading right now. Maybe lyncher - lynchee with OTM. That would be hilarious

why is Maki supposed to answer a question directed at beeboy?

unrelated to the above: i'm scumreading this.

Right.

Okay, so, if your scumread is unrelated to the bits about maid cafe, you're scumreading the slot based on the set of townreads. Elaborate? Make me feel what you feel. <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I play aether vial btw

I put a counter on our aether vial.



~B

Too late, already missed the trigger. We're already into the first main phase.

JUDGE!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And given that Reasonably Rational is just about the most powertown hydra in existence regardless of

I appreciate this part of your post. <3

-Cerb

Quick question about this, mastina: Did you MEAN to say powertown, or did you mean to say protown? I appreciate it either way, but I realized it coulda been different.

Also, am I self-sorting because I do too fucking much to develop and implement a winning plan for town for me to, by the time it gets to end game, believably push for a town win without preventing my own win as scum?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Mastina I think your logic is kinda flawed in 2 regards.

1) Meta/Ancedote type stuff doesn't really work cross players on such a small sample. + Your kinda just wrong in spotting my intentions and kinda aren't really taking into consideration I could have got frustrated and reeled myself in considering you thought my overall case was logical after I stepped back and summed it up.
2) I think I am a very rough player to read day 1, but like mid day 2 I am usually easy af to read.

~B

Actually that could have been Yume posting.
But same thing generally applies.

~B

Twas definitely Yume posting.

Wonder when the people who didn't participate in the pregame are gonna show up.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I don't think Scum Mastina goes.
"I am going to go setup a beeboy lynch for you Yume"
a lot of the time so I lean town on the slot because of that.

~B

I don't actually think anyone familiar with you pushes your lynch D1 as scum, so your reasoning makes sense to me.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I miss A50 too. I also agree that natural forming wagons are more important than whatever venmar can do, particular this early in the game.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Cerb — Name one thing you disagree with me strongly on and one thing you disagree with me but it’s meb.

@Kiara (the other part of the Titus hydra) same question.

I am thinking I might be rescinding the Cerb TR.

Nope. Nothing immediately comes to mind, which means I probably don't strongly disagree with you on anything(or else I'd have already said so) and I don't particularly feel like reading your ISO simply to satisfy your curiousity about some insignificant difference in opinion.

The implication of your question+statement is that you believe I've been subtly buddying you by echoing/failing to disagree with statements you've made. Let me say this again: you are overestimating how much significance I place on your slot.

I believe the only people I might consider buddying are Titus and mastina, and that would simply be to spare Drixx the unhappiness that he experiences when those particular people fail to trust him regardless of what he does.

Oh, and maybe random, cuz I want to be a in PT with him cuz tradition!
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm online, but I'm not Chara.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Mastina, would you mind answering my question? It's not really important to this game, just something I'm curious about.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

it's the first time i've heard of the theory, pretty null on it, more interested in the reactions to it. i honestly thinks it's kind of silly and we should just lynch productively and naturally to what the gamestate demands, but it's not like i haven't seen wackier theories have some merit.

Interesting. Why did you try to form a wagon on yourself if you think wagons should form naturally?

Seconded.

Also, that whole theory thing is, as someone else said, simply something to keep in mind when town lynches scum D1, not a reason to deliberately try to lynch town.

Also also another thing, but I wanna wait and see what everybody else has to say before I bring it up. <3

-cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I don't really think we should try and solve this game from a role/role usage POV, especially day 1.

~B

You can always try to solve a game from a role usage POV. Not necessarily from the role alone though, so you're half right.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

This game was literally advertised as.
"You may leave this game thinking it was bastard"

~B

That was specifically noted with regards to the different planes, not the roles, so I don't think that point is relevant to this line of discussion.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm here homie!

What shall we chat about?


-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

hat was specifically noted with regards to the different planes, not the roles, so I don't think that point is relevant to this line of discussion.

-Cerb

Generally, I think Planes would effect roles and balance regarding them

~B

Sure, but if the planes are the source of the near bastard elements, then there's no reason to assume any roles have similar elements.

I still miss A50.

-Cerb

pedit: I <3 Skybird, but she hasn't said nearly enough for me to actually have an informed opinion of her. I've noticed a lot of people seem to have this uncanny ability to put skybird firmly in the scum or town category on D1, but I just can't do it.

I want to know if not seeing the same townvibes from Shining Dreamers(which, btw, I don't actually see anyone else really saying they're seeing, closest I've seen is Maid Cafe and myself saying we don't expect mastina to push for that slots lynch D1) means you see scumvibes.

I expect you to always townread me, so there's nothing to talk about there.
I don't really see why anyone townreads Venmar. Not to say I expect him to be scum, I just don't see evidence for thinking he's town.
I'd like to hear your reasons for Maid Cafe and OTM.

-Cerb, again.

[Reasonably Rational]

I don't really see why anyone townreads Venmar. Not to say I expect him to be scum, I just don't see evidence for thinking he's town.

are you reading me as null?

Effectively. I just see NAI stuff coming from you.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

people are confusing chara doing protown things with it meaning they are more likely to be town. only reason i'm not going after them hard rn is that they were arguing with iconeum who has also been scummy and want to think about that more.

so, what does town do if not protown things? :>

This post is disappointing coming from you Chara.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@A50: Please confirm your lost vote by voting for someone! Thanks!

<3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm also considering asking everyone to just vote for themselves until a VC happens to see if we can identify who the thief is, but...alignments were rolled after roles were made, so that won't be useful since the decision was made pretty early.

Oh, also: A50, when was your vote stolen? Midday, at day start? Were you told anything about the source of the vote steal? Like if it was a card used by someone?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

i would guess the vote moves via privately messaging Varsoon.
but, as usual, your questions are quite thorough.

pedit: :<

Mark, is there a reason you enjoy swooping to my defense so valiantly?

It is not to your defense.

I am about to case Reasonably Rational and show how irrational and contradictory Cerb is being.

Odd that you respond to this and not the Skybird vote.

Then after I get done if someone townreads RR then tell me why.

Yay, my favorite part of the game!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, also:

This is a formal request for any millers, ascetics, and other NU people to come forward.

I'm particularly interested in anyone who can counterclaim Chara. Not because I think Chara is scum, but because knowing if multiple millers exist is pretty damn important.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

wait, you don't think i'm scum, so you're just disappointed in me as a

player

?

Chara, I know you put a smiley thingie at the end of that post, so I know it was a tongue in cheek response, but it's SO unbearably bad and easily responded to that you even saying it disappointed me because you're better than that.

Remember everyone: When I think someone is scum, and am confident in it, I'll do a lot more to tell you it than just say I'm disappointed in you. I'm intrigued by the fact that both OTM and yourself thought I was expressing a scumread with that post though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Wait is OTM Mulch?
~Lumia

IDK. Some people do. They're probably someone who was in SU2 or Protomen(because they were a pre-in, and the message Varsoon sent out about the game went to that subset of players) and isn't currently in this game, and who plays on other sites. That's *probably* enough information to identify them if someone wanted to, but I don't feel like it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Wait is OTM Mulch?
~Lumia

IDK. Some people do. They're probably someone who was in SU2 or Protomen(because they were a pre-in, and the message Varsoon sent out about the game went to that subset of players) and isn't currently in this game, and who plays on other sites. That's *probably* enough information to identify them if someone wanted to, but I don't feel like it.

-Cerb

That, plus their unique posting style. Either someone who posts the exact way they do, or someone who *never* posts that way.

And okay, I don't know who Mulch is. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I wonder who has a pregame ability to utilize in these 24 hours, and what will happen when it comes about?

Current guess is scum influence on which plane we'll be in each phase.

-Cerb

Hi town. How you doing?

I guess that line of questioning is silly and will lead us down a path of ruin.

I'm fantastic, thank you for asking! Trying to get synced up with my other head, and taking a bit of a break from work because I've been focusing on the work shiz all day. ^^ How are you doing?

And yes, it might not lead us down a path of ruin, but I'd rather not go there. Mastin is smart, if she didn't actually claim the whole thing and she's town, then not claiming it is probably a reasonable option. If she's scum, then whatever they claim will be perfectly reasonable, just like their refusal to claim will be at this point. Besides, there are other details about that whole situation that make it a lot more helpful to not push them on it.

@Chara: I'm sad that you're a miller, and happy that you're a miller. Sad because now I need to be paranoid all game, happy because if I can get past my paranoia, I get to know you're on my side!

@Maid Cafe: Noted. Not going to be giving you anything, but, good to know.
-Cerb

I find it odd here, that Cerb's thoughts here directly contradict my thoughts in post 96 among others. However when I asked him for something he disagreed with he said, in post 392 nothing. This is one of the things that makes me worry. Cerb generally doesn't "mind meld" for lack of a better word this early and I was supremely scared.Drixx, while being offline, tends to favor the "case" type of arguments, and lots of data and endpoints. The fact Cerb decided to not really think about it long and then blow off the question seems odd. It's more like a "I don't give a shit to answer this." That's not really how I expect someone who town reads another to disregard what they are saying. The Titus/Kiana question was more an after thought but I was mainly trying to get a feel for Cerb. (And yes I'm calling the slot Cerb until Drixx pops in. Deal.)

Cerb has also tried to spend most of pregame and D1 towards a mechanics based play style instead of a reads based one from his opening.

it's the first time i've heard of the theory, pretty null on it, more interested in the reactions to it. i honestly thinks it's kind of silly and we should just lynch productively and naturally to what the gamestate demands, but it's not like i haven't seen wackier theories have some merit.

Interesting. Why did you try to form a wagon on yourself if you think wagons should form naturally?

Seconded.

Also, that whole theory thing is, as someone else said, simply something to keep in mind when town lynches scum D1, not a reason to deliberately try to lynch town.

Also also another thing, but I wanna wait and see what everybody else has to say before I bring it up. <3

-cerb

Now notice that Cerb specifically mentions that he agrees with my point on wagons forming naturally. He says a minor contradiction in which he says games should always be solved from a role POV. That's not always the case. If a role provides evidence, e.g. you KNOW someone did something, that is mod confirmed obviously don't ignore it. Similarly if someone says they did something, then that gets taken into account. However, the point about role POV directly goes counter to this being a Varsoon game. Take for example Steven's Universe. That game was specifically solved through the power of a town block and THEN actions. Not ACTIONS then town block.

I don't really think we should try and solve this game from a role/role usage POV, especially day 1.

~B

You can always try to solve a game from a role usage POV. Not necessarily from the role alone though, so you're half right.

-Cerb

Notice here it's a "disagreement" without teeth behind it. It's like "you're half right" but he doesn't actively discourage or dissuade the parts he finds wrong. In fact, Cerb has been rather quiet in terms of that, just sort of floating. I haven't seen Cerb actually take a stance for something he believes in. Players with far fewer posts have left a stronger imprint on the game. Drixx's being MIA while that annoys me is typical for his personality/work life balance. Lumia gave a reason so I'll back off for now on them, but I want to see some townie content before D1 is up from the slot.

I'm also considering asking everyone to just vote for themselves until a VC happens to see if we can identify who the thief is, but...alignments were rolled after roles were made, so that won't be useful since the decision was made pretty early.

Oh, also: A50, when was your vote stolen? Midday, at day start? Were you told anything about the source of the vote steal? Like if it was a card used by someone?

-Cerb

Now this is where one contradiction is a potential fuckup, a second is shame on you. Earlier, Cerb agreed with wagons forming naturally. Now Cerb is arguing for the destruction of current wagons in that everyone votes for themselves. Not only does this NOT address the core problem of people missing votes, it hides the voting pattern, and goes strictly against the mechanics post Cerb agreed with me on. He can't both agree and disagree with himself can he? If other players are missing votes (I have not received such a PM) then that would come up in a VC or if A50 is telling the truth the players inbox. The only thing hunting for a vote stealer does is create chaos and distract from hunting scum.

Mainly the buddied feeling hasn't gone away where it actually has with Titus/Kiana which is a nice bonus.

I miss A50 too. I also agree that natural forming wagons are more important than whatever venmar can do, particular this early in the game.

-Cerb

This is kinda the nail I think in the coffin. With Cerb agreeing with me with a lack of mechanics focus (or rather more accurately flip flopping) whatever Venmar is claiming to do Cerb seems to be frightened of or scared of. He wants natural wagons over Venmar's ability and a then to remove those wagons because a vote stealer exists, despite the effect that comes from the player voting anyone receives the same results.

I'm pretty sure Cerb is buddying scum here, and those townreading RR I would love to have opinions from.

Although I lost my dare. Damn it.

I'll take suggestions from the peanut gallery on whether or not this is actually worth my time to destroy, given how incredibly bad it is.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I also don't mean that to be disparaging or anything, it's just...legitimately a really bad case. :-/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

i'm not talking about stealing mana, i'm talking about informing scum nightkills, and scum power use.

and how Varsoon hates massclaims, explicitly warned us against flavour claims, etc.

maybe it means nothing. but i can guarantee Varsoon did not design this game so that it's a good idea for everyone to claim and coordinate mana stacking.

and this hasn't even touched on the fact i'm not townreading you, so why should i be giving you mana? :<

I dunno people said this about mass claiming not breaking both GiF magical girl games and both got broken via mass claim if people went for it.

I think generally its more pro-town if we all just openly try and get mana. If there are conflicting ways to generate it then we lose maybe 3 people casting spells. Vs me and Maki trying to play like a jester get voted, cross vote under a specific condition then hope that we can walk it off.

Like being hidden about mana generation I think hurts town, I think the game was made so most of us can generate mana, Varsoon wouldn't design cards people can't realistically use and by hiding how i get mana me and maki just get taken off our cards 9/10 times.
Lot's of people can still hiddenly generate mana and don't need to claim conditions.

Scum knowing I always act tonight is strictly better than me not acting.

~B

So this is something I'm torn about. Mathematically, the majority of the game is town, therefore if you simply do everything to enable everyone's abilities, you're helping town more than scum on a per slot basis...but scum power is usually a lot worse for town than town power is for scum, because scum know where to aim...and by being so open about things, you're enhancing that disparity.

In short, idk what the right thing to do is, but if it involves ruining wagons as badly as the Venmar thing does, then it shouldn't be done, unless it's done super deliberately after we've come to a consensus on who the lynch for the day is.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

also. googled this.



i don't know anything about magic. are these cards fake, or non-tourney legal, or something?

These are legit cards.

-Cerb

pedit: Yeah, fair points Chara(though I did mention scum power being worse for town than town power is for scum, which ties into what you're saying). Better to play mafia, than turn this into a game where all we do is try to enhance our own powers.

[Reasonably Rational]

The current seems to read Tibor manna and Sky....I still think RR is there but I could sideline that a bit.

OTM, there is legitimately no chance of me being lynched.

Taly and Tibor are currently probable lynches with the way the game is going, skybird is maybe possible but there's no conviction behind any of the suspicion directed at her, and I have no idea who manna is.


^^ Also, I wrote up my response to your post in our hydra PT, but since nobody seems to care about your case or agree with you(so far), I won't bother posting it! <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Me and Cerb have flavor knowledge and flavor is something that apparently matters a lot this game.
I think we pose a threat to a scum team with 0 magic knowledge.


~B

Eh. I think a scum team with 0 magic knowledge could gain enough knowledge to figure stuff out once spells come out and people see how different colors are being represented mechanically.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

That's not really how I expect someone who town reads another to disregard what they are saying. The Titus/Kiana question was more an after thought but I was mainly trying to get a feel for Cerb. (And yes I'm calling the slot Cerb until Drixx pops in. Deal.)

i would argue that scum RR pays

more

attention to how they answer questions, not less.

They did pay attention. The reaction was IDGAF. I wasn't saying they're not paying attention. It's that they are blatantly contradicting themselves. And I don't know where Cerb

actually

stands on mechanical issues or his reads. I want that to stop.

Also, you could actually ask me questions directly if you want to know where I stand on something. I think it's pretty clear where I stand on everything, and you're misreading a number of things I've said, either intentionally or due to some sort of bias, but I can certainly clarify stuff if you want to ask.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

That's not really how I expect someone who town reads another to disregard what they are saying. The Titus/Kiana question was more an after thought but I was mainly trying to get a feel for Cerb. (And yes I'm calling the slot Cerb until Drixx pops in. Deal.)

i would argue that scum RR pays

more

attention to how they answer questions, not less.

They did pay attention. The reaction was IDGAF. I wasn't saying they're not paying attention. It's that they are blatantly contradicting themselves. And I don't know where Cerb

actually

stands on mechanical issues or his reads. I want that to stop.

Also, you could actually ask me questions directly if you want to know where I stand on something. I think it's pretty clear where I stand on everything, and you're misreading a number of things I've said, either intentionally or due to some sort of bias, but I can certainly clarify stuff if you want to ask.

-Cerb

Do you value mechanics play or regular play?

Do you support the everyone vote for themselves plan?

Who are your top town and scumreads?

Let’s start there.

Define "regular" play. If you want to know how I play(which you should already know, and which should tell you what I value, but I'll gladly reiterate it to everyone): I enjoy mechanically breaking games and doing everything in my power to do the objectively optimal play in all situations, again, mechanically speaking. I attempt to create auto-win situations for myself, as either alignment. As far as reads go, I only value those parts of reads which can be documented, where you can lay out a logical set of reasons why x is why, based on actions taken.

As for RR, the patented Phosphophyllite test is that unless they bring actual read to the main thread, you hang them and you look happy doing it. Not into any PTs alone. Into the main thread. You cannot fail in this way.

- Phosphophyllite

You're still my favorite Yume. <3 I don't actually think I've ever been secretive about a read in a PT and not expressed it in the main thread as well, eventually. There have been times where I've told one party I suspect someone while not acting like I suspect them in the main thread, in order to further a gambit(generally Drixx generated) of some sort, or vice versa, but the truth always comes out afterwards, regardless of alignment. I can appreciate your sentiment though.

^^ Also, I wrote up my response to your post in our hydra PT, but since nobody seems to care about your case or agree with you(so far), I won't bother posting it! <3

i'll actually be the devils advocate here cause im curious in your response. right now you're just smugly dismissing and discrediting the case.

That's because it's easy to dismiss, and OTM didn't ask for my response, only for that of those who TR me.

Anyways, that's 1!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

That's not really how I expect someone who town reads another to disregard what they are saying. The Titus/Kiana question was more an after thought but I was mainly trying to get a feel for Cerb. (And yes I'm calling the slot Cerb until Drixx pops in. Deal.)

i would argue that scum RR pays

more

attention to how they answer questions, not less.

They did pay attention. The reaction was IDGAF. I wasn't saying they're not paying attention. It's that they are blatantly contradicting themselves. And I don't know where Cerb

actually

stands on mechanical issues or his reads. I want that to stop.

Also, you could actually ask me questions directly if you want to know where I stand on something. I think it's pretty clear where I stand on everything, and you're misreading a number of things I've said, either intentionally or due to some sort of bias, but I can certainly clarify stuff if you want to ask.

-Cerb

Do you value mechanics play or regular play?

Do you support the everyone vote for themselves plan?

Who are your top town and scumreads?

Let’s start there.

Define "regular" play. If you want to know how I play(which you should already know, and which should tell you what I value, but I'll gladly reiterate it to everyone): I enjoy mechanically breaking games and doing everything in my power to do the objectively optimal play in all situations, again, mechanically speaking. I attempt to create auto-win situations for myself, as either alignment. As far as reads go, I only value those parts of reads which can be documented, where you can lay out a logical set of reasons why x is why, based on actions taken.

As for RR, the patented Phosphophyllite test is that unless they bring actual read to the main thread, you hang them and you look happy doing it. Not into any PTs alone. Into the main thread. You cannot fail in this way.

- Phosphophyllite

You're still my favorite Yume. <3 I don't actually think I've ever been secretive about a read in a PT and not expressed it in the main thread as well, eventually. There have been times where I've told one party I suspect someone while not acting like I suspect them in the main thread, in order to further a gambit(generally Drixx generated) of some sort, or vice versa, but the truth always comes out afterwards, regardless of alignment. I can appreciate your sentiment though.

^^ Also, I wrote up my response to your post in our hydra PT, but since nobody seems to care about your case or agree with you(so far), I won't bother posting it! <3

i'll actually be the devils advocate here cause im curious in your response. right now you're just smugly dismissing and discrediting the case.

That's because it's easy to dismiss, and OTM didn't ask for my response, only for that of those who TR me.

Anyways, that's 1!

-Cerb

Oh shit, I realized I didn't answer the rest of OTM's post. Sorry. Okay. I don't think a vote for themselves plan will reveal anything alignment wise. A50 should definitely vote so we can confirm that his vote has been stolen, but everyone else voting for themselves will tell us one of two things: 1) that whoever stole his vote gained it, or 2) that whoever stole his vote doesn't have it tied to their normal vote action.

I don't think either of those pieces of information will tell us what the alignment of the person who stole it is, so we shouldn't do it, but we also shouldn't dismiss it out of hand because THERE IS VALUE to that line. Doesn't cost much and it *does* offer a benefit, though it's a minor one.

I don't have strong town or scum reads at this stage in the game. Not enough has happened, and there's no flips, therefore I can't rationally attribute any actions as being scum or town motivated.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You don't strongly town read me yet?



~B

Sorry.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

That's not really how I expect someone who town reads another to disregard what they are saying. The Titus/Kiana question was more an after thought but I was mainly trying to get a feel for Cerb. (And yes I'm calling the slot Cerb until Drixx pops in. Deal.)

i would argue that scum RR pays

more

attention to how they answer questions, not less.

They did pay attention. The reaction was IDGAF. I wasn't saying they're not paying attention. It's that they are blatantly contradicting themselves. And I don't know where Cerb

actually

stands on mechanical issues or his reads. I want that to stop.

Also, you could actually ask me questions directly if you want to know where I stand on something. I think it's pretty clear where I stand on everything, and you're misreading a number of things I've said, either intentionally or due to some sort of bias, but I can certainly clarify stuff if you want to ask.

-Cerb

Do you value mechanics play or regular play?

Do you support the everyone vote for themselves plan?

Who are your top town and scumreads?

Let’s start there.

Define "regular" play. If you want to know how I play(which you should already know, and which should tell you what I value, but I'll gladly reiterate it to everyone): I enjoy mechanically breaking games and doing everything in my power to do the objectively optimal play in all situations, again, mechanically speaking. I attempt to create auto-win situations for myself, as either alignment. As far as reads go, I only value those parts of reads which can be documented, where you can lay out a logical set of reasons why x is why, based on actions taken.

As for RR, the patented Phosphophyllite test is that unless they bring actual read to the main thread, you hang them and you look happy doing it. Not into any PTs alone. Into the main thread. You cannot fail in this way.

- Phosphophyllite

You're still my favorite Yume. <3 I don't actually think I've ever been secretive about a read in a PT and not expressed it in the main thread as well, eventually. There have been times where I've told one party I suspect someone while not acting like I suspect them in the main thread, in order to further a gambit(generally Drixx generated) of some sort, or vice versa, but the truth always comes out afterwards, regardless of alignment. I can appreciate your sentiment though.

^^ Also, I wrote up my response to your post in our hydra PT, but since nobody seems to care about your case or agree with you(so far), I won't bother posting it! <3

i'll actually be the devils advocate here cause im curious in your response. right now you're just smugly dismissing and discrediting the case.

That's because it's easy to dismiss, and OTM didn't ask for my response, only for that of those who TR me.

Anyways, that's 1!

-Cerb

ILU too.

- Phosphophyllite

P.S: If you're scum, please tell your buddies not to kill us. I am still sad that I wasn't able to enjoy SU2 fully.

As am I. I think we win if we leave you alive, it took us down a dark, desperate path. :-/

And I solemnly swear that I will do everything in my power to make sure you live until I have cause to believe you're scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Skybird, what's your position on OTM?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

FYI it’s public info my main got outed since the micro finished.

I am MathBlade aka Roundabout on MU. I am alting to improve my play on MS and take some MU things that work here and because I wanna have an account separate the more I go on a life journey. Since it’s public knowledge on MU I don’t think it’s fair not to announce it here but I was hoping that micro would last a bit longer damn.

Hi!

It turns out that I do recognize your name! But I don't know you personally! And neither you do, for me. So, it won't affect my ability to sort you as a "null entity"

Incidentally, before your main was revealed, I had to ask Titus to try to ID you because I wanted to know how strong you were, and if you were as powerful as you claimed; Titus plays on MU and DLP as well, so I figured she would be helpful with this. But, then, with some clues, I managed to guess that your identity anyway! Titus was still being mean and told me "I cannot confirm or deny" when I asked her if I was right... hmph!!

~Kiana

Interesting? I don’t alt hunt but I feel I need to acknowledge some of this. I don’t know who you are and won’t try to solve that.

However I didn’t claim to be powerful. I claimed to be good on MU and horrible here. There is a distinction. I was hoping Titus didn’t recognize me. Lovely.

Assuming I am not a valid answer who would you give a puppy to(neighbor) and who would you give a defense dog to (pgo) and who would you give a show dog (named useless dog) to?

Aka neighborize,pgo, named useless?

Math dearest, why would you think Titus couldn't recognize you when she already displayed her ability to figure out who you are in FFT?

I think I have to post my rebuttal now because it brings up shit that YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT ME and were trying to push me about.

Sec.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

A less than eloquent response to OTM's earlier case against me, but it contains the major problems with the case and the assumptions made therein. I think Drixx will be mad at me for posting this, because he's firmly of the opinion that responding to anyone's poorly executed push simply gives it legitimacy, but I think people should be aware of the fact that OTM definitely has experience with me(including my solo scum game, played as a partner to me), and is still trying to say things they know are NAI about me are actually meaningful.

I wonder who has a pregame ability to utilize in these 24 hours, and what will happen when it comes about?

Current guess is scum influence on which plane we'll be in each phase.

-Cerb

Hi town. How you doing?

I guess that line of questioning is silly and will lead us down a path of ruin.

I'm fantastic, thank you for asking! Trying to get synced up with my other head, and taking a bit of a break from work because I've been focusing on the work shiz all day. ^^ How are you doing?

And yes, it might not lead us down a path of ruin, but I'd rather not go there. Mastin is smart, if she didn't actually claim the whole thing and she's town, then not claiming it is probably a reasonable option. If she's scum, then whatever they claim will be perfectly reasonable, just like their refusal to claim will be at this point. Besides, there are other details about that whole situation that make it a lot more helpful to not push them on it.

@Chara: I'm sad that you're a miller, and happy that you're a miller. Sad because now I need to be paranoid all game, happy because if I can get past my paranoia, I get to know you're on my side!

@Maid Cafe: Noted. Not going to be giving you anything, but, good to know.
-Cerb

I find it odd here, that Cerb's thoughts here directly contradict my thoughts in post 96 among others. However when I asked him for something he disagreed with he said, in post 392 nothing. This is one of the things that makes me worry. Cerb generally doesn't "mind meld" for lack of a better word this early and I was supremely scared.Drixx, while being offline, tends to favor the "case" type of arguments, and lots of data and endpoints. The fact Cerb decided to not really think about it long and then blow off the question seems odd. It's more like a "I don't give a shit to answer this." That's not really how I expect someone who town reads another to disregard what they are saying. The Titus/Kiana question was more an after thought but I was mainly trying to get a feel for Cerb. (And yes I'm calling the slot Cerb until Drixx pops in. Deal.)

Cerb has also tried to spend most of pregame and D1 towards a mechanics based play style instead of a reads based one from his opening.

If you recall the entirety of my ISO(as you should, given that you drew from posts throughout it), I specifically say(REPEATEDLY, EVEN), that Mastin generally doesn't lie, and agree with what you said in 96. In addition, this post in no way contradicts your thoughts there. Your 96 says mastina keeps her options open and she doesn't pigeonhole herself. With regards to 392...I again, specifically said that there was nothing major that came to mind(and if there had been, I would have already mentioned it). It was pretty clear from my post that I couldn't be bothered to reread your ISO to assuage your concerns, concerns which I had already sussed out and thus stated in 392. IN addition, throughout this post you make statements indicating a high degree of familiarity with my, and Drixx's, playstyles...and then you end this portion by stating that I have a mechanics, rather than reads, based playstyle early game.

No fucking shit. Pretty sure LITERALLY everyone here who's played with me before knows that. Why don't you?

Anyways, point is: The contradictions you're pointing out don't exist, I obviously didn't care about responding to your post because I knew why you wanted to know(which means scum!me, if he cared, could easily go through your ISO and find any disagreements that might exist in order to continue "buddying" you), and my early game play is exactly what you stated, and should come as no surprise to anyone who knows me. Why make a point of that?

it's the first time i've heard of the theory, pretty null on it, more interested in the reactions to it. i honestly thinks it's kind of silly and we should just lynch productively and naturally to what the gamestate demands, but it's not like i haven't seen wackier theories have some merit.

Interesting. Why did you try to form a wagon on yourself if you think wagons should form naturally?

Seconded.

Also, that whole theory thing is, as someone else said, simply something to keep in mind when town lynches scum D1, not a reason to deliberately try to lynch town.

Also also another thing, but I wanna wait and see what everybody else has to say before I bring it up. <3

-cerb

Now notice that Cerb specifically mentions that he agrees with my point on wagons forming naturally. He says a minor contradiction in which he says games should always be solved from a role POV. That's not always the case. If a role provides evidence, e.g. you KNOW someone did something, that is mod confirmed obviously don't ignore it. Similarly if someone says they did something, then that gets taken into account. However, the point about role POV directly goes counter to this being a Varsoon game. Take for example Steven's Universe. That game was specifically solved through the power of a town block and THEN actions. Not ACTIONS then town block.

YOu're misrepresenting me. I stated that games should always be solved from a role USAGE POV. There's a significant difference between saying "x is scum because y is a scum role" and saying "x is scum because x used y in a manner which only benefited scum". With that being said, NOTHING about what I said should lead anyone to believe that I think the ONLY way to solve games is via roles, merely that role usage is ALWAYS a useful piece of information to have.

I don't really think we should try and solve this game from a role/role usage POV, especially day 1.

~B

You can always try to solve a game from a role usage POV. Not necessarily from the role alone though, so you're half right.

-Cerb

Notice here it's a "disagreement" without teeth behind it. It's like "you're half right" but he doesn't actively discourage or dissuade the parts he finds wrong. In fact, Cerb has been rather quiet in terms of that, just sort of floating. I haven't seen Cerb actually take a stance for something he believes in. Players with far fewer posts have left a stronger imprint on the game. Drixx's being MIA while that annoys me is typical for his personality/work life balance. Lumia gave a reason so I'll back off for now on them, but I want to see some townie content before D1 is up from the slot.

This is, once again, something you should be aware of if you're attempting to claim any sort of perspective on what is and isn't out of the order for me. I DON'T make strong stands on anything outside of theory and basic shit like don't claim stupid shit, and claim all NU D1, until I've gathered substantive evidence to support a position.

I'm also considering asking everyone to just vote for themselves until a VC happens to see if we can identify who the thief is, but...alignments were rolled after roles were made, so that won't be useful since the decision was made pretty early.

Oh, also: A50, when was your vote stolen? Midday, at day start? Were you told anything about the source of the vote steal? Like if it was a card used by someone?

-Cerb

Now this is where one contradiction is a potential fuckup, a second is shame on you. Earlier, Cerb agreed with wagons forming naturally. Now Cerb is arguing for the destruction of current wagons in that everyone votes for themselves. Not only does this NOT address the core problem of people missing votes, it hides the voting pattern, and goes strictly against the mechanics post Cerb agreed with me on. He can't both agree and disagree with himself can he? If other players are missing votes (I have not received such a PM) then that would come up in a VC or if A50 is telling the truth the players inbox. The only thing hunting for a vote stealer does is create chaos and distract from hunting scum.

Mainly the buddied feeling hasn't gone away where it actually has with Titus/Kiana which is a nice bonus.

Note that in my post I specifically say that we should move our votes TO OURSELVES until the next VC. That means that if you're looking at vote movements, you'd clearly be able to see that a bunch of people were voting for themselves, and you can therefore easily discount that time frame as time when they're not voting, or time when their vote remains on the previous individual.You're also ignoring the fact that I fucking say WHY it wouldn't be helpful. I express the thing that we could do to accomplish a goal/gain one more piece of data, as well as expressing why that data isn't as helpful as it might be in other games.


There's also a very significant difference between people voting Venmar throughout the day to keep him as the second wagon, and thus ruining the entire days set of VC's, and people self-voting/removing their votes effectively for a few pages.

I miss A50 too. I also agree that natural forming wagons are more important than whatever venmar can do, particular this early in the game.

-Cerb

This is kinda the nail I think in the coffin. With Cerb agreeing with me with a lack of mechanics focus (or rather more accurately flip flopping) whatever Venmar is claiming to do Cerb seems to be frightened of or scared of. He wants natural wagons over Venmar's ability and a then to remove those wagons because a vote stealer exists, despite the effect that comes from the player voting anyone receives the same results.

I'm pretty sure Cerb is buddying scum here, and those townreading RR I would love to have opinions from.

Although I lost my dare. Damn it.

See the previous bit.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, OTM, where's the fucking follow-up? You case me because of a bunch of bullshit that seems to be fundamentally based on your inability to determine where I stand on things, I offer to answer questions about those things, you ask them, I respond, and then...what? Am I no longer worth talking to? Did my response satisfy you? Do you have any more questions? Or were you just pushing with no fucking conviction?

All of the above is not to say that I think OTM is scum, however, their play is questionable so far with regards to my slot at least
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I also have this weird issue.
I should be town reading Titus but i am not.

~B

On what basis should you be townreading Titus? I can understand having a read one way or another on the other head, but not Titus, given the utter banality of their contributions so far.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Mark, Please let this go. I don't want a devolve theory discussion.

Feel free to comeback later or cop them if you need to.

If you don't lynch RR today, they still lead to buddy lynches if scum. I also really don't want them to be scum as I really want a game where we work together.

~Titus

I think OTM already let it go when they saw nobody was actually buying into their case. As I said, I would have just let it lie myself but there are parts of that push that don't make sense for someone as familiar with me as they are to make.

In other news.

How are you Titus? I haven't talked to you in forever. Your bday was yesterday ya, on Pi Day? Or was that the other head? How was it?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I also have this weird issue.
I should be town reading Titus but i am not.

~B

On what basis should you be townreading Titus? I can understand having a read one way or another on the other head, but not Titus, given the utter banality of their contributions so far.

-Cerb

To be clear, your position is no one should be able to read me town or scum?

I am here now. Let's dance?

How shall we dance? Actually, more importantly, what shall we dance to? <3

My position is that I care more about sorting B than you so I want him to answer my question with less interference. <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

(Not overall, just at this moment! I'm pretty sure I'm like 100% on you in games we've played together, with the only notable exception being SD2, where only what I consider an error in the way a mechanic was presented led me to erroneously conclude that you had to be lying due to a contradiction between a statement you made and what the moderator said, so I'm not super concerned about getting you right like right away.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

On what basis should you be townreading Titus? I can understand having a read one way or another on the other head, but not Titus, given the utter banality of their contributions so far.

-Cerb

I can normally get some kind of read on Titus by now is mainly what I was saying.
It isn't really an issue with her posts and if it was I am not sure if it would actually indicate her alignment.

~B

Ah. So you don't have *any* read on Titus at this stage, not a scumread on her, and normally you know one way or another early in the first day of a game?

Have there been any other games with her where you were this ignorant at this stage?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: Taly
I think this is a good place to start. I don't know how you get a role like the one he claimed and don't immediately think "hey I can use this to confirm other people's abilities when they claim them" as town. Like sure everyone's probably got access to reasonably powerful ability, but waiting for someone to get run up to L-1 and claim and then copying their ability to compare it to the claim seems like good value.

For the record I disagree with any theory argument that leads to claims from players not on L-1. Props to Chara for expressing importance of not being stupid.

How do you feel about the follow-up provided by Taly, after being questioned by Chara about this? That was also posted before you made this post, did you read it and ignored it, or missed it?

329 was terrible imo. The idea of claiming in order to spur discussion and interaction is gross. Wanting to give a public warning that his ability is ever changing and unpredictable is scum motivated preparation for later and further shows how he’s missing half the utility of the ability. Him showing uncertainty about Chara’s sarcasm and deciding to assume meaning instead of seeking clarification.

Yeah this is a good wagon. People should join.

Venmar, who do you read as scum in this game?
Other then voting yourself 'for mana gain', you are voting Tibor because the slot went against purposefully lynching townie D1 as a general strategy... Of all things Tibor hydra posted, that's like the one thing I really liked about him.

it shouldn't be the the thing you like about them though, lol. tibor had a knee-jerk scum reaction to the strat chara mentioned and has been fake posting all game so far

Just got to this and besides chuckling at Charas post I’m also agreeing with Venmar on this read.

And fwiw I’ll be trying to lynch scum today not town.

Interesting vote Maid Cafe.

@Micc: Why are you voting for Taly over Tibor? You've expressed dissatisfaction with both slots(agreeing with Venmars scum read on Tibor, which indicates agreement that there exists a more significant history of scummy actions than that which exists for Taly(since that history is based on a singular event)), and Tibor has more votes already...so why not put more pressure on the other scum read?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

All of the above is not to say that I think OTM is scum, however, their play is questionable so far with regards to my slot at least
-Cerb

I think OTM already let it go when they saw nobody was actually buying into their case. As I said, I would have just let it lie myself

but there are parts of that push that don't make sense for someone as familiar with me as they are to make.

these confuse me. cerb do you think onthemark is scum, or town?

I have no idea. I just know that OTM shouldn't be pushing me for these things, but they are...but a lot of people have, in the past, pushed me for things they know are normal for me in spite of being town.

I'm starting to think that when people do that sort of thing, it might be wholly NAI, and it's just them trying to strengthen their case by throwing a buncha shit together even if it's easily refuted.

Have there been any other games with her where you were this ignorant at this stage?

Not that I can remember.

What are your thoughts on Micc so far?

~B

Only thoughts are included in the question I just asked.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

no questions for Chara, Cerb? (this is not a serious post, i just want to chat.)

there, now i'm being very explicit. or should i keep making sarcastic posts and see who believes me and who doesn't? :>

I only have questions for people when something prompts me to have a question!

For example, I asked Micc a question because when I saw MC's vote, I was like wut? So I went to check Micc's ISO sinc eI expected it to be super short(and it was) and immediately found things that could justify a vote on them, so I asked about them.

Do you have any controversial opinions, or ones that, based on your knowledge of me, I wouldn't find to be sufficiently justified with what you've posted in the thread so far, so I can ask you about them?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey Titus, what do you think is the most important thing to know about a closed setup when it comes to solving the game, other than the alignments of the players?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Do you have any controversial opinions, or ones that, based on your knowledge of me, I wouldn't find to be sufficiently justified with what you've posted in the thread so far, so I can ask you about them?

no, not really.
i actually don't know what i expected. good chat. <3

pedit: can i answer this one too!

YES!

Everyone can answer it!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The more I know you though, the more valuable your answer is, which is why I asked Titus first.

-Cerb

pedit: Pretty good answer yo, B&M.

[Reasonably Rational]

Here's another, similar question, that relates the previous one to this game:

What is the most important thing about *this* game to know more about, excluding anything related to specific players.

Is it knowing how mana can be generated?
Is it knowing what different cards can do?
Is it knowing what factionals scum have?
Is it knowing what abilities players might have?


Etc. Purely mechnical knowledge, untied to specific players.

-Cerb

pedit: Naw micc, I'm not in any hurry to wagon anyone, I'm getting plenty of data with the way things are right now, I just found it interesting that you didn't move your vote elsewhere.

[Reasonably Rational]

Interesting Cerb doesn’t answer Titus’s Iconeum question:

@Cerb I skimmed your response.
My short answer to what I think is your main point I wasn’t going to get what I needed to read you and town reads were telling me to drop it.

My main response is where are your arguments that don’t involve my main in regards to my original case? Are there any? Or had you planned on outing my main in order to attempt to defend against the case?

I don't remember Titus' Iconeum question? If she was asking about thoughts on them, I don't have any without rechecking their ISO, they've been pretty much as unimpactful as Micc.

I didn't know your main at the time I wrote that up(You can check that in the hydra PT in post-game to confirm, for what it's worth), I was just assuming that you knew me since you were acting like you did.

I'm pretty sure there are arguments that don't involve your main in that post, namely that what you call contradictions aren't, and are simply displays of a fundamental lack of understanding on your part with regards to the meaning of my posts.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

That was disappointing.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey Titus, what do you think is the most important thing to know about a closed setup when it comes to solving the game, other than the alignments of the players?

-Cerb

Their motivations. Why players act determines so much more than what. That is why when you hooded me in SU2 and reacted negatively to my steal I suspected you were scum. Not because of you hooding me but what you did when you got there. Once Farside was mathmatically town and scum had to use Math to avoid giving conftown power without outing, the possibilities for who was intellectually focused enough to be likely were narrowed dramatically. The fact we forced you to use your event was tbh your undoing although you thought it cleared you. I still can never lynch you as scum. It happens after my death.

Long diatribe aside certain players have certain skillsets. How they use those skills is indicative of alignment.

Relating this to me I will do a VCA if RL permits but my analysis of the VCs will reveal what I value. My values strongly suggest my alignment since I don't like losing anyone on my team as either alignment unless necessary or the boon is too great.

~Titus

Eh, we weren't forced to use our event, we *wanted* to use it. Perhaps that was an error on our part, but that line was wholly intentional. Us getting annoyed at you stealing our ability was also NAI, because it was a bullshit thing to do period, especially since you didn't think we were scum prior to doing it, as you just admitted.

Anyways.

What about the other, more mechanical question? That's actually what I cared about more, I just realized when people started responding that they'd start answering with all this ephemeral bullshit that didn't actually give me the data I wanted.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So what exactly happened here?

Anyone can answer this?

I don't think anyone would want to answer, even if they did know.

Most likely some stuff resolved, Varsoon had to check the order that actions were submitted/spells were cast, and some people probably got PM's, and whatever was done could have affected what happened in the game thread.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hmm our mana ability doesn't work the way I thought it did.

~B

Ours works exactly as advertised. Sucks to be you.



-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Here's another, similar question, that relates the previous one to this game:

What is the most important thing about *this* game to know more about, excluding anything related to specific players.

Is it knowing how mana can be generated?
Is it knowing what different cards can do?
Is it knowing what factionals scum have?
Is it knowing what abilities players might have?


Etc. Purely mechnical knowledge, untied to specific players.

-Cerb

pedit: Naw micc, I'm not in any hurry to wagon anyone, I'm getting plenty of data with the way things are right now, I just found it interesting that you didn't move your vote elsewhere.

[Reasonably Rational]

So I need 2 wagons that consist of 2 people cross voting.
Then I need 1 of those wagons to be bigger then the other.

P1 - P2, P3
P2 - P1
Would be valid but P1-P3 cannot be me.

Then I need everyone voting P1 to unvote.

~B

And you can also gain extra abilities when people give you stuff.

Hmm. I have no idea what color identity that could possibly give you, lol.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

wow. does Varsoon hate you?

Looking at my PM you could ask the same thing.

Riiip.

Oh and Almost50 once he confirms his vote is stolen as I believe him is very likely town. Can’t explain why. I want an explanation for something Skybird said and they know what I mean.

Pedit: Sarcasm doesn’t suit you Cerb.

I wasn't being sarcastic! I literally have no fucking idea what that could be. :-/

Like, i can make a good guess about Taly's color identity...but I know more about MC and it's confusing and doens't make sense to me.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Chara: Can you please be very explicit in your next post about how your miller ability functions.

Thanks!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

i feel like i've answered this already. <3

alignment investigations return The End. i would call it universal as gunsmiths also see me as having a killing ability, but Varsoon wasn't explicit about that and said yes to a hypothetical gunsmith with that power. i don't know how it would interact with spells and such. but i am assured they all treat me as though my alignment was The End.
does that help?

But you're not explicitly called a miller, yes? Because that's not how Varsoon does things. He told you that everything treats you as though your alignment was the end. Does that include stuff like trackers returning you as visiting the scum kill etc?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR, Shall we have our obligatory fight? Mark ruined the pressure on Iconeum.

@Mark, Your rapid votes pressure none of your targets atm. :/

Why would we have a fight? Also, Drixx is the one who fights with you, not me.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Chara: I just want to make sure it's firmly on the record exactly what abilities etc should return a negative result on you, so in case you are actually scum fake claiming miller because you know in Varsoon games there can be multiple millers and therefore the fake claim isn't particularly risky, people know *what*, if any, results they can trust on you.

-Cerb

pedit:@MC: You probably have the coolest spells.

[Reasonably Rational]

Here's another, similar question, that relates the previous one to this game:

What is the most important thing about *this* game to know more about, excluding anything related to specific players.

Is it knowing how mana can be generated?
Is it knowing what different cards can do?
Is it knowing what factionals scum have?
Is it knowing what abilities players might have?


Etc. Purely mechnical knowledge, untied to specific players.

-Cerb

pedit: Naw micc, I'm not in any hurry to wagon anyone, I'm getting plenty of data with the way things are right now, I just found it interesting that you didn't move your vote elsewhere.

It's very useful for both alignments to predict behavior. Which is more useful varies from card to card and player to player. Knowledge explains behavior. Therefore, if a player has a role that impacts other players behavior

and they are aware of it

transparency is best. This applies in mana stealers, millers, and other anti-town things.

Knowing what scum can do creates a box of therefore what they likely cannot do. This allows for coordination without outing our roles.

Mana generation is very low tier for knowledge until late game, assuming not player specific here. Both alignments (unless a planet picker exists) would view it as random chance.

Cards and abilities is your standard rolefish and I can't see how it applies generally but only to certain slots.

So out of the four, I'd pick scum ability knowledge

knowing what I know now anyway.

~Titus

Let me elaborate: That question wasn't meant to LIMIT the options, those were just examples. Any sort of mechanical thing you could think of is an acceptable answer.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I think Taly should copy Chara to see if the miller thing is fake.
Not really show how useful that is though since Chara could just be a scum miller

~B

A scum miller, as in, a role aligned with The End that explicitly has text in their role card stating that they will always be investigated as being part of The End?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Taly check, lynch Taly tomorrow? Boom! Or even today, if their ability can copy them today(which I actually imagine it can).

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So....Titus, stop referring to SU2 because there are fundamental differences in the way things happened, and the way you believe they happened.

Regarding the Taly thing: that's obviously a dumb thing to do, the only reason why it's a consideration is because multiple people suspect them, therefore if the lynch is going to happen eventually, best if at some point prior to it happening they checked Chara.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

then no, i don't much feel like giving Maid Cafe mana.
also, i want to know how Maki is reading me. <3

Why not? There is greater than a 75% chance that Maid is town, so giving Maid mana is more than likely good.

That statement can pretty much be made about everyone. Does this mean we should give everyone mana?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Didn't realize Chara had already said it.

Okay. So, how will we know what they do with the mana, without them claiming a shitload?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Cerb: i'm doing something i've never done before in this game. and i apologize for this. deeply. though if you're scum, consider that null and void.

i'm disappointed, because i did it mostly because Almost was here. but between not having his vote and his disinterest, it might not matter.

:/
Is there anything you can tell me about the thing you're doing?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

sure.
i'm putting myself to a test. and doing what i think is best for town, but in a way that might be rather anti-town. it's difficult, because i'm so used to doing what i think is best for cohesion, always. putting it another way, i'm taking advice from both Ellibereth and Almost and creating a sort of hellish synthesis.
number one goal is always to lynch scum and win, though. i'm not trying to step on toes, and attempting to play in such a way that i don't do that.

Varsoon gave me a role PM that was useless to me as i usually play. i might as well have been a VT. so i decided to try and do something different instead of doing what i normally would.

well, that was fun.

who wants to talk about Snarky's entrance? i laughed.

pedit: then i propose we all wagon Venmar and make him the second largest wagon. oh, wait...

I suggest you explicitly state what anti-town action you're taking within the next 48 hours. Think about it. Hopefully succeed at whatever you're doing, but I want to know what's going on before this phase ends.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Does anyone outside Mark or Chara have a reason on why we shouldn't rolecop Chara's miller claim?

~B

Rolecopping chara's miller claim is 100% the optimal course to take. That data point should always be gathered, given the means to do so.

-Cerb

pedit: I'm really really annoyed right now Chara.

[Reasonably Rational]

Already addressed, long before the current discussion. Why aren't you reading Titus?

i'm not talking about stealing mana, i'm talking about informing scum nightkills, and scum power use.

and how Varsoon hates massclaims, explicitly warned us against flavour claims, etc.

maybe it means nothing. but i can guarantee Varsoon did not design this game so that it's a good idea for everyone to claim and coordinate mana stacking.

and this hasn't even touched on the fact i'm not townreading you, so why should i be giving you mana? :<

I dunno people said this about mass claiming not breaking both GiF magical girl games and both got broken via mass claim if people went for it.

I think generally its more pro-town if we all just openly try and get mana. If there are conflicting ways to generate it then we lose maybe 3 people casting spells. Vs me and Maki trying to play like a jester get voted, cross vote under a specific condition then hope that we can walk it off.

Like being hidden about mana generation I think hurts town, I think the game was made so most of us can generate mana, Varsoon wouldn't design cards people can't realistically use and by hiding how i get mana me and maki just get taken off our cards 9/10 times.
Lot's of people can still hiddenly generate mana and don't need to claim conditions.

Scum knowing I always act tonight is strictly better than me not acting.

~B

So this is something I'm torn about. Mathematically, the majority of the game is town, therefore if you simply do everything to enable everyone's abilities, you're helping town more than scum on a per slot basis...but scum power is usually a lot worse for town than town power is for scum, because scum know where to aim...and by being so open about things, you're enhancing that disparity.

In short, idk what the right thing to do is, but if it involves ruining wagons as badly as the Venmar thing does, then it shouldn't be done, unless it's done super deliberately after we've come to a consensus on who the lynch for the day is.

-Cerb

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

i have to get going, but: Cerb, i understand if you're upset with me. please understand that i wasn't just dicking around, and i am completely cognizant of how scummy the timing of my claim retraction was.

pedit: Mark, you had me figured as a liar, or as scum?

I knew you were a liar. I was trying to figure out under what circumstances the play you were making was possible if you were town.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

i have to get going, but: Cerb, i understand if you're upset with me. please understand that i wasn't just dicking around, and i am completely cognizant of how scummy the timing of my claim retraction was.

pedit: Mark, you had me figured as a liar, or as scum?

I knew you were a liar. I was trying to figure out under what circumstances the play you were making was possible if you were town.

-Cerb

I need an answer from you on this Chara.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

oh. to be fair, i didn't realize that was a question.

i don't want to answer this question, i'm sorry. i can explain why i did it?
for one, i wasn't going to accidentally force out any claims via making the claim i did, because it's negative utility. for two, it was relatively low-risk. it doesn't screw with town's actions in a way that would hurt town.
and three: i'm very confident in my ability to not be lynched.

What would you say if I told you your claim already hurt towns(my) actions, and you were 100% going to be lynched today as of 30 minutes ago?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I knew you were a liar. I was trying to figure out under what circumstances the play you were making was possible if you were town.

cerb have you never seen town claim miller falsely?

Doesn't matter if I have or not(I haven't), it's a nonsensical shitty play that's beneath Chara.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

(beneath town!chara, that is)

@Chara: you'll just have to wait and find out.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Doesn't matter if I have or not(I haven't), it's a nonsensical shitty play that's beneath Chara.

is chara town or scum

No idea. Talking it through with Drixx.

Tempted to just get Chara lynched for doing a shitty thing, 25% chance we hit scum anyways!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Cerb, if you submitted a kill on me (or whatever) because i lied, the onus is on you for having an itchy trigger finger and for doing that without having any concept that i might have a reason for what i did.

i didn't fake a guilty. i lied and then retracted in the span of maybe three rl days.

I should just expect everyone, even the people who I respect, to play like shit?

Got it. Will do so going forward.

Expectations officially lowered.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, what else is going on? Besides this dumb discussion about vote swapping, and the dumb discussion about Charas fake miller claim.

Where were we at before we embarked on this conversation?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

My other option is lock my vote, late in the day. Publically so scum still know I have mana.
On a natural wagon that won't just disband so I can get my mana and do something else.

Those are my 2 options.
~B

Okay, real talk here B: People aren't going to work to enable your mana generation every day barring a cop clear on you. It just won't happen. Maybe you can convince a specific set of people to do it(you already have one, you just need two more), but you should really just ask for the three volunteers, and either you get them or you don't. This conversation doesn't need to take up nearly this much time.

-Cerb

@Venmar: Unless you're using disingenuous incorrectly, you're absolutely fucking wrong. You have NO fucking clue how sincere I am, or what I expect of people, or what I know about them.

[Reasonably Rational]

@Venmar: I'm actually praising Chara as a player by saying that I don't expect poor play from them, and what they just did counts as poor play to me. It's not a matter of punishing them, it's a a matter that no matter what else happens for the rest of this game, there will ALWAYS be this rather large black mark against Chara that will make it very difficult to properly sort them, simply because they did something that's REALLY far outside of their town play.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

god, alright. this is making me sick. i'd rather lose this stupid game than have Cerb this pissed at me. i didn't know, i'm sorry, i won't do it again, fuck whatever reason i had for doing it.

RR, Mark, are town. highest confidence is RR town. Tibor/Skybird/Iconeum are scummy. no reads anywhere else at the moment.

Chara.

I love you. I'm not pissed at you. I think it really sucks that you did that, but it's just a game.

You're still one of my favorites k?

I'm sorry I made you feel bad.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR, I have an idea. What is the earliest theoretical point where 2 slots could lynch a target supposing 1 death per day (lynch) and 1 kill per night? How many vote addition or removal cards are in play?

This avoids alignment so it may help.

This is for your question thingy.

Mmm. Interesting line of inquiry. Reasonable thing for you to sense, wholly in character. Noted.

<3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@MC: Noted.

-Cerb

@Venmar: OMG IT'S WORKING PEOPLE THINK I'M EMOTIONAL NOW.



And for the record, what I was doing wasn't discrediting Chara in any way. I don't understand why you think I'm discrediting them. I just know it's going ot be really hard for me to look at the tally of their actions this game on like D5 adn be able to definitely conclude they're town. :-/

[Reasonably Rational]

You said you had to go right Chara? When you get back, let's work on your set of SR's. ^^

I know you said stuff about them previously, but I was focusing on sorting you before I judged the value of your positions.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@MC: will you be making this request every day?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Likely.

~B

K. And you need 3 participants, correct?

Drixx still isn't caught up as far as I know, though I've pinged him about important developments. Up to him if we want to help give you mana.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, please confirm exactly how your mana generation works before anything is done. Your prior statements lead me to believe that you've done that already, but just want to make sure you've received/given an explicit example of actions to take to generate mana for yourself.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@OTM: I want to hear about Dunn and B&M.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Catching up from page 30 fucking kill me now
Chara is lock town btw like if you ever try to lynch that I will haunt you (I was told about the gambit)
~Maki

IJS, if we get to a 3p lylo with myself, chara, and someone else, chara is probably going to die.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Catching up from page 30 fucking kill me now
Chara is lock town btw like if you ever try to lynch that I will haunt you (I was told about the gambit)
~Maki

IJS, if we get to a 3p lylo with myself, chara, and someone else, chara is probably going to die.

-Cerb

gonna have to make sure you die before Lylo then.
~Maki

:-/. That literally never happens unless I get shot.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Catching up from page 30 fucking kill me now
Chara is lock town btw like if you ever try to lynch that I will haunt you (I was told about the gambit)
~Maki

IJS, if we get to a 3p lylo with myself, chara, and someone else, chara is probably going to die.

-Cerb

gonna have to make sure you die before Lylo then.
~Maki

:-/. That literally never happens unless I get shot.

-Cerb

noted ^_~
~Maki

Beeboy could have told you that!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Catching up from page 30 fucking kill me now
Chara is lock town btw like if you ever try to lynch that I will haunt you (I was told about the gambit)
~Maki

IJS, if we get to a 3p lylo with myself, chara, and someone else, chara is probably going to die.

-Cerb

gonna have to make sure you die before Lylo then.
~Maki

:-/. That literally never happens unless I get shot.

-Cerb

noted ^_~
~Maki

Beeboy could have told you that!

-Cerb

Your first mistake is thinking I care about beeboys opinion

I mean, it's not really his opinion.

It's a fact.

The only time we've been lynched before LYLO is in our signature. There may have been one other game where we were scum and sacrificed ourselves to set up a teammate with a better position for a late game win, but I don't remember if that actually happened or if we just talked about doing it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Can I just pretend the group of people below are all IC's, and go from there? Anybody think that leads to a loss a significant percentage of the time?

OnTheMark
Shining Dreamers (Hydra: Yume & Mastina)
Chara
Baku and Munna (Hydra: Randomidget & Shiro)
Maid Cafe (Hydra: Maki & Beeboy)
Bronya Zaychik (Hydra: Titus & Kiana Kaslana)

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I sorta got demotivated because I submitted a good song to Song Contest yet scored bad.

Hey Creature.

Can you be like, super duper active this game just for me?I wanna hear all your thoughts!

<3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Catching up from page 30 fucking kill me now
Chara is lock town btw like if you ever try to lynch that I will haunt you (I was told about the gambit)
~Maki

IJS, if we get to a 3p lylo with myself, chara, and someone else, chara is probably going to die.

-Cerb

gonna have to make sure you die before Lylo then.
~Maki

:-/. That literally never happens unless I get shot.

-Cerb

noted ^_~
~Maki

Beeboy could have told you that!

-Cerb

Your first mistake is thinking I care about beeboys opinion

I mean, it's not really his opinion.

It's a fact.

The only time we've been lynched before LYLO is in our signature. There may have been one other game where we were scum and sacrificed ourselves to set up a teammate with a better position for a late game win, but I don't remember if that actually happened or if we just talked about doing it.

-Cerb

You clearly have not met me
Hi I'm Maki also known as MariaR
I will make your life a living hell...
ow beeboy I'm kidding OW OW NOT THE NEWSPAPERRRRRRRRRRR

MARIAR! I didn't know you were Maki! Hi!

I sorta got demotivated because I submitted a good song to Song Contest yet scored bad.

Hey Creature.

Can you be like, super duper active this game just for me?I wanna hear all your thoughts!

<3

-Cerb

Motivate me

How!??!? I will literally do anything within the game to motivate you Creature. I'd like really to see you dive in.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

What's the townblock again?

I don't think there really is one. I did however make a post about a list of players asking if anyone thought we'd just lose if I assumed that set of players were all town.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Can I just pretend the group of people below are all IC's, and go from there? Anybody think that leads to a loss a significant percentage of the time?

OnTheMark
Shining Dreamers (Hydra: Yume & Mastina)
Chara
Baku and Munna (Hydra: Randomidget & Shiro)
Maid Cafe (Hydra: Maki & Beeboy)
Bronya Zaychik (Hydra: Titus & Kiana Kaslana)

-Cerb

why is Baku in here?

also, you all suck for townreading me openly.

Baku is here because I <3 Random and Shiro, duh.

That list is of people who I really just want to solve and win a game with. I'd have A50 in there too, but he's been pretty quiet.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, that list isn't of townreads. It's a list of people I WANT to townread simply because I like them, with no relation to their play in this game.

So, no open townread for you Chara!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yeah, I'm really behind the post count race

Though, this looks like a pretty aristocratic game post count-wise.

What does this mean
~Lumia

I'd also like to know what this means.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Sorta wanted to lead a scum wagon D1 like I did some other game.

Do it Creature!
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

OTM, do you have an question for me that I didn't answer?

RR, I answered your question and you have ignored it. What gives?

When I woke up this morning I didn't remembe why I asked you that question. There was something that OTM did or tha tyou said that prompted me to ask that question last night, but even though I checked both your ISO's I couldn't put together the pieces of whatever I saw last night. :-/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ico, Chara says she was joking about the lynch town thing and those of us who took it seriously didn't read it right or something. I'd have to go back and re-read to see for sure but Chara seemed surprised at our reactions.

I don't know about anyone else, but it seems to be that MC's claimed method for getting mana is extremely complicated. I know the way I can gain mana is very straight forward and I don't really think Varsoon would make it so difficult for one slot to gain mana. They claim in post 88 that it would be best if town targeted them with actions. In post 558, they ask Chara to cross vote them so they can get mana. After getting questioned about it, they say in post 574 that they think everyone can gain mana more or less easily. When I call them out in post 689, they respond that they didn't explain exactly how the vote/mana thing worked (post 782). This is followed by more conditions on the vote/mana thing. It just seems very strange to me and not very towny. They want power so they can action at night. Why make themselves such a target?

There's also this:

@everyone also important note, if you have the ability to kill another player please opt to use another card if possible.
There are 8 planes to see across 8 days and I want to visit all of them.

~B

I think RR speculated earlier that scum might be controlling the planes we visit. How does MC know we have to go to a different plane each day? How do they know there are 8 planes? Did I miss something in Varsoon's starting posts?

Varsoon had a post up while he was making the game that showed his progress, and it showed x/8 planes created. In addition, he stated that if the game went longer than that, he'd start recycling them(or make new ones, he wasn't completely clear). So, there's cause to believe there are 8 planes.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ran out of time but I'll come to this game later.

Checking in.

It's later. Does this mean you're going to contribute in a meaningful fashion now?

-cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I find RR's 738 pretty over the top; I agree that Math's case on RR was shoddy and mostly NAI but the response from RR really seems to come from someone with too much time. Too much of a stretch to call it alignment indicative but it is rather more indicative of a type of personality. It helps build an archetype for what to look for in his play in later-game I guess.

This isn't really going to help anyone but just putting this out here for myself to reference later if necessary.

I have fun deconstructing bad cases. It's also good practice for when I'm actually scum and need to deconstruct good cases.

I would have the following players in my towncore:

Myself, RR, OntheMark, Chara, Creature

Venmar and Shining Dreamers are on the waiting list.

Why am I in this heads town block? I don't think I saw any notable mention of myself other than the quote above, please correct me if missed an established positive read on my slot by this head.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Kiana and I TR RR and Creature strongly.

So, to summarize, my reads are this:

Strong townread: RR, Creature.
Townread: OnTheMark, Shining Dreamers.

Lighter townread on Venmar and Chara.


I've decided to be less transparent about my scumreads for now. However, I have good confidence about my reads this game, which suggests that they are most likely right.

*nods*

My bad. I thought those were all coming from Titus.

Can you explain the movements? Chara went from lighter townread, to townread, while Shining Dreamers went from townread to "waiting list", whatever that means.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Can you explain the movements? Chara went from lighter townread, to townread, while Shining Dreamers went from townread to "waiting list", whatever that means.

I don't trust Shining Dreamers enough to townblock them, but I am fine with not lynching them for the time being.

Chara just seems town.

Were there any particular posts or actions taking by Dreamers that prompted the change in attitude, or did you just reevaluate?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Kiana, at what point dies the pressure one slot puts on another make it unlikely that the two are scum together? Assuming there isn't cause to believe an outright bus is happening/the slot being pessured would have gone down regardless of what the pressuring slot did

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Kiana: Noted. So does that mean that once the pressure becomes memorable, a slot is less likely to be scum with the slot they're pressuring(given the constraints previously mentioned), and that the more memorable the pressure is, the less likely it is that they're teammates?

In response to your 1131: Do you think MC is the sort of player who would, as scum, make a mistake of that caliber?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

OtM how do you justify Maid Cafe writing a paragraph to justify

locktowning

a player who said a grand total of "hi" in a 46-page thread only after being called out on its absurdity?

Irrelevant.

I have lockscummed a player for a word on page one and have been right.

I don't think you answered the real thrust of the question. Though the bolding was on locktowning, the question was about the, arguably, overexplanation on the read that only came after they were informed that the read was something others found suspect.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Kiana: Noted. So does that mean that once the pressure becomes memorable, a slot is less likely to be scum with the slot they're pressuring(given the constraints previously mentioned), and that the more memorable the pressure is, the less likely it is that they're teammates?

In response to your 1131: Do you think MC is the sort of player who would, as scum, make a mistake of that caliber?

-Cerb

A good interpretation in general, yes. Of course, there is no fine line; variables such as the strength of the player to play scum, and his/her tendency to bus must also be taken into account when performing evaluations.

I've seen high levelled scum players goof up their scum fakeclaim in a Mafia Tournament before. It's not unheard of. And everybody makes mistakes. I believe it is highly plausible.

What do you think about OtM's current tunnel on Skybird. Do you see any similarities when they made the case on you, or is this a different bird altogether?

Completely different. They discarded the push on me very quickly, and didn't really engage with any of the third parties who came to defend me.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I also don't have much of an opinion on Skybird, and always see fluff cases spring up on them D1(like, every single game), so I haven't actually paid much attention to OTM's actual reasons for being suspicious of Skybird(also partially because it's somewhat related to Iconeum, another slot I don't have much to say about).

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Because I wouldn’t get what I need to read you Cerb.

I need Drixx to post.

I still lean scum on you but it was a fruitless endeavor that would be spam.

I also need Drixx to post.

He was going to say something yesterday to get Chara to dig themselves deeper into their "I'm a miller" hole, but then Chara retracted it, and idk where he's at in the game now. :-/

Spoiler: @Kiana, unrelated to this game

Speaking of Drixx(well, speaking of us as a hydra, and yourreaction to our signature):

That entire interaction came about because we spent D1 defending Frozen Angels slot, like, pretty hard defending, iirc, and then RC replaced in to a slot that had claimed IC, and found a linguistic quirk of FA's that caught her as scum(just something she would always say when she was scum). RC then refused to pop their IC, and decided we were scum for 1) refusing to accept they were IC's without them actually popping it, and 2)defending FA's slot on D1.

[Reasonably Rational]

I also don't have much of an opinion on Skybird, and always see fluff cases spring up on them D1(like, every single game), so I haven't actually paid much attention to OTM's actual reasons for being suspicious of Skybird(also partially because it's somewhat related to Iconeum, another slot I don't have much to say about).

-Cerb

Your non defense defense is noted.

And I have defended Skybird D1 in Mass effect when it happened.

And I was right.

Past games that I have not personally been a part of (which means, all meta references except my completed games here, including "Mass Effect") are non-evidence to me and hold no sway.

Pfft. Do you deny that Skybird always attracts early game wagons? And that statistically, those wagons are usually on town!skybird?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I also don't have much of an opinion on Skybird, and always see fluff cases spring up on them D1(like, every single game), so I haven't actually paid much attention to OTM's actual reasons for being suspicious of Skybird(also partially because it's somewhat related to Iconeum, another slot I don't have much to say about).

-Cerb

Your non defense defense is noted.

And I have defended Skybird D1 in Mass effect when it happened.

And I was right.

Past games that I have not personally been a part of (which means, all meta references except my completed games here, including "Mass Effect") are non-evidence to me and hold no sway.

Pfft. Do you deny that Skybird always attracts early game wagons? And that statistically, those wagons are usually on town!skybird?

-Cerb

The last sentence is the same odds as everyone else and Cerb I am disappointed.

Gambler’s fallacy from you?

You must have missed the at the end of the last sentence.

The important part is the fact that Skybird always attracts early game wagons, which is something I've noticed, and thus when I play a game with Skybird, I tend to ignore all pushes on her that happen D1 because her play just makes people push her early, regardless of alignment, in my experience.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

i find this more distracting. especially when you're townreading Mark, Kiana.
i still think Skybird is scummy. so far her defenders have not actually interacted with any part of the

case

.

I mean what is the case summarized.
I have a gasp of it but it is kinda explained over many posts throughout many pages of the game.

~B

Seconded. I promise to take the case seriously and interact with it with the all my capabilities if it is succinctly and wholly expressed in a single post.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I have a hunch the team is Sky, Bryona, RR and munna

Need time to type up my Sky case and I am at work but that’s my hunch.

I have a hunch that that particular team would be undetectable on D1. <3

But I look forward to reading a real case and taking it seriously.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Is that where we guess who has that role, based on what they've said so far in this game, or are we simply talking about who we *want* to have those roles because they'd use them well?

-Cerb

pedit: Agreed with Chara. I want OTM to connect with people. The current game state has them standing a bit outside of the consensus' forming, which sucks for everyone because OTM can be really friggin helpful.

[Reasonably Rational]

pedit: Agreed with Chara. I want OTM to connect with people. The current game state has them standing a bit outside of the consensus' forming, which sucks for everyone because OTM can be really friggin helpful.

Cerb, the game is like fuck, marry, kill, except it's with PR actions. and a way to discuss reads

i'm not sure saying who is obvtown is useful when they're not in danger of being lynched, though.

as for this, yes. Mark's great. not my style at all, but saying they're derptunneling or that they've gone off the deep end just seems unfair when they haven't done anything of the sort.

Ah. Hmm. That makes more sense.

-Cerb

@Titus: I wasn't in Civ. And I was scum in SU2, therefore this can't be it redux. :-/

[Reasonably Rational]

hey, i eventually realized RR was scum in SU2! ....even if it happened after i was dead and in a Crystal Gem bubble.

also, i am very, very confident in RR town. perhaps the reason is bad, but there you go!
and i will maintain that i read them correctly in Protomen, because i figured their wincon was town and

also

that they were lying. i just misinterpreted the setup. :>

Would you like a cookie?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

We should play fun games like.

Cop, Vig, Doc where we give 3 names for each catrgory.

~B

Tried that.

Byrona doesn’t play

For liking puppies and giving me one supposedly they don’t play with them.

I'll play [Titus head]

Cop RR (We know I scared of you)
Doc RR (I can pick same slot right?)
Vig Iconeum T and L or Mark

I can play too, but my answers are at this moment and subject to discussion with Drixx.

Cop Chara(obvious reasons)
Doc Shining Dreamers(I told Yume I'd do everything in my power to keep her alive!)
Vig Snarky, Dunn, or Taly(Low content)

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh yay!

Titus says to push something and I do.

Then I get called derp tunneling for pushing something and explaining my read as asked and assaults on my skill.

Please tell me to go write “OTM is a good player” then say I am a horrible player for writing it.

I don’t have time for this shit I am going to work.

Let me know when I am allowed to push someone.

There's a difference between pushing and stopping listening by calling scumteams and ranting and doing preflips etc. :/

It's d1, let's get ppl to work together.

~Titus

Yeah! Let's work together!~

I just need Drixx to come tell me who he's okay with me working with.


OH. Speaking of working with people.

MC: You said all your methods of generating mana were public. You only shared one method of gaining mana. Are there other public methods of gaining mana you possess that people can help you with? Don't share them if there are, I just want to know if I should be expecting other requests from you.

-Cerb

Spoiler: Not mafia related

If any of you were in Denver, would you go to a Mean Girls movie party at the Alamo Drafthouse? Just curious.

[Reasonably Rational]

Ico, Chara says she was joking about the lynch town thing and those of us who took it seriously didn't read it right or something. I'd have to go back and re-read to see for sure but Chara seemed surprised at our reactions.

I don't know about anyone else, but it seems to be that MC's claimed method for getting mana is extremely complicated. I know the way I can gain mana is very straight forward and I don't really think Varsoon would make it so difficult for one slot to gain mana. They claim in post 88 that it would be best if town targeted them with actions. In post 558, they ask Chara to cross vote them so they can get mana. After getting questioned about it, they say in post 574 that they think everyone can gain mana more or less easily. When I call them out in post 689, they respond that they didn't explain exactly how the vote/mana thing worked (post 782). This is followed by more conditions on the vote/mana thing. It just seems very strange to me and not very towny. They want power so they can action at night. Why make themselves such a target?

There's also this:

@everyone also important note, if you have the ability to kill another player please opt to use another card if possible.
There are 8 planes to see across 8 days and I want to visit all of them.

~B

I think RR speculated earlier that scum might be controlling the planes we visit. How does MC know we have to go to a different plane each day? How do they know there are 8 planes? Did I miss something in Varsoon's starting posts?

Varsoon had a post up while he was making the game that showed his progress, and it showed x/8 planes created. In addition, he stated that if the game went longer than that, he'd start recycling them(or make new ones, he wasn't completely clear). So, there's cause to believe there are 8 planes.

-Cerb

Is this post still available somewhere?

Also, in the event there are more than 8 days, I'm just going to either design new planes or re-use ones I've already used. Haven't figured it out yet.

@MC: Noted. I really want to ask more but it's probably antitown to probe further.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

also chara is scum caught in a gambit
skybird is lynch bait and ico possibly is as well but i'm not sure yet

OTM Chara scum together you think?

Why does scum!Chara make a gambit that's demonstrably improbable based on publicly known(and stressed by the moderator) information?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Like, I still don't understand how the hell town!Chara decides to do that either, hence my problem with sorting the slot, but putting them straight as scum because of it doesn't feel accurate either.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

cerb, you and your chara read is just killing me. im losing my will to live

You should put less thought and energy into any of my reads early game.

For reals.

I certainly don't put much thought or energy into them.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them.

Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read.

Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

This post tries to continue the Beeboy+Me whatever the fuck that was. Attempts to be divisive without too much of a commitment. They aren’t sure yet they are enough to try to bring others into it. Instead of actively asking a sorting question to figure it out they push. Means if Sky is scum Maid Cafe is lock town.

And what if I'm town? Then will you see MC is scum?

Why would MC scum have a mana requiremebt that needs town? Why wouldn't scum just tunnel each other and devolve for distance?

~Titus

Valid point. Not super strong, but worth keeping in mind.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them.

Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read.

Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

This post tries to continue the Beeboy+Me whatever the fuck that was. Attempts to be divisive without too much of a commitment. They aren’t sure yet they are enough to try to bring others into it. Instead of actively asking a sorting question to figure it out they push. Means if Sky is scum Maid Cafe is lock town.

And what if I'm town? Then will you see MC is scum?

Why would MC scum have a mana requiremebt that needs town? Why wouldn't scum just tunnel each other and devolve for distance?

~Titus

Valid point. Not super strong, but worth keeping in mind.

-Cerb

It actually isn’t. It’s hyperbole and appeal to emotion. Furthermore roles were created prerand. So the whole why would MC scum have a mana requirement ... is flawed at its core.

Cmon Cerb and Titus you’re better than this.

Reread and try again.

If MC had the role they described, they could have scum do it in RVS phase.

This. Titus' phrasing was off in the initial post, but that's what I assumed she meant/the valid point I was talking about. The appeal to town to help out doesn't seem super necessary, since they'd know they could always ensure it happened with a little coordination. The reason why it's not super strong is because there are obvious weaknesses and risks to that approach, which are mitigated by having town help them.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Micc is a good wagon if Sky doesn’t take off. Case coming late tonight hopefully

Uhh they weren't in your scum pairings? You seem rather unfocused. Can you reboot and return when you can post thoughts on each player succinctly without associations?

~Titus

Yeah!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

no bc then they have to come up with genuine defensible standpoints rather than contrived bs

first of the game

Much disappoint.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Sorry for recgonizing you. :/

Use the neighbor on two townreads who bicker. See Denmark mafia. If only one, pick a hard townread.
Use the PGO on someone who screams town protective.
Hold the show dog until you need to prove your woofiness.

~Titus

I know this was said ages ago, but if anybody can neighborize two people, make sure you put random and I together otherwise you'll have ruined everything forever and you should feel bad.

^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

People are listening to Chara.

People aren't really listening to mark.

People aren't likely to lynch either.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

People are listening to Chara.

People aren't really listening to mark.

People aren't likely to lynch either.

-Cerb

they shouldnt be
ehh fair enough
i am aware of that fact.

So, if you have a choice between two slots which are both unlikely to be lynched, what makes you choose to vote one over the other, when you said both were scummy?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

i think it's worth pressuring mark because I'm worried that they are trying to fling enough shit that no one can actually see what they are saying

What do you think they're actually saying?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

My other option is lock my vote, late in the day. Publically so scum still know I have mana.
On a natural wagon that won't just disband so I can get my mana and do something else.

Those are my 2 options.
~B

The real question is why do you feel you have to have mana right now?

So

I can only gain mana publically.

And having power is better then not having power.
Help me or don't help me. You can disagree with my POV if you think a VT is stronger then an open PR that makes us vote oddly for 1 VC but I have trouble seeing you not realize why I just want mana.

~B

Perhaps MC could just repeat the bold, by itself. My first thought, might not be a good one though since finding out they're lying about that doesn't make them scum.

Why didn't you lie detect the miller claim before all the discussion about it happened?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And yes, more reasons for your reads would be AWESOME SS.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Varsoon: can you go ahead and make sure Almost knows this game has started? i miss him terribly.

I miss A50 too.

<3 I love you too, guys

Oh, and maybe random, cuz I want to be a in PT with him cuz tradition!

This should read: Cuz I'm a genius at brainwashing those I share a PT with.

Posts 410 & 411 Bronya can be town for now. About the same level of the Maki/Bee hydra. (If that ws Kiana on her own it would have been a notch or two higher, but I'm being a tad conservative.)

I just wanna be in a PT with Rando yo. I can do my brainwashing in public.

@SS: What sort of post can you imagine someone making that would be more useful to lie detect on D1 than one confirming that someone is or isn't lying about being a miller?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

this is why hydras are actually the worst

?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Omg it's an Alisae!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm always a dear, but I won't be performing a summary for you. <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

FTR; I think I'm having a problem regarding the "too many hydrae syndrome". I precisely keep confusing Tibor & Baku for some reason. Not that I have seen a hell lot of either slit.

This isn't a too many hydras problem. It's a too many people with similar name structures, combined with another similarity(being hydrae) that makes you confused.

@Venmar: You, sir, are not in any town blocks. Or maybe we have two townblocks forming! In that case, we could just figure out who overlaps, and THEY'RE the real townblock(or the entire scum team).

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Venmar, I don't want to be in any townblock.

@Alisae: IDK, I made a post listing peeps who I wanted to just trust unconditionally and asked if anybody thought that would lead to losing(which has nothing to do with my reads, just people I wanted to win with on a personal level, so you'd be getting added to that list. ), other people have put together their own little town groupings, but we haven't really come to a consensus.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

yeah it's me, chara, maid cafe, otm, and maybe a50. im accepting further applications

pedit: re creature

Why is RR missing?

I believe Venmar doesn't trust what he views as "waffling" on my part with regards to Chara.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I believe Venmar doesn't trust what he views as "waffling" on my part with regards to Chara.

-Cerb

omg, cerb is cognizant

(you missed the fact where your chara read also conveniently lets you angle for their lynch should it ever be convenient for you cause "haha they faked a miller claim 5 days ago so they scum now" and i don't like it)

You didn't explicitly state that my ability to push a lynch late game based on D1 play from Chara bothers you, so I certainly didn't miss it.

So, Venmar, fyi: Regardless of how I speak about the scumminess/towniness of an action right now, if I'm building a case against someone later and someone has taken an action that could be viewed as scummy, that action will be used. My current position, or lack thereof, is irrelevant, and my rhetorical skill is such that there wouldn't be any problem's caused by taking *either* position firmly if such a situation were to come to pass.

I feel you on disliking my explicitly stated absence of a position, in spite of having a strong opinion about Chara's actions, but it's not something to be concerned about with me at least.

-Cerb

@A50: I love the fact that you explicitly stated that our slot will always be neutral to you.

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, A50, read faster. There's interesting stuff ahead.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Imagine if a player claimed they get mana from lynching an IC?

I think this example is more relevant to Chara now than Venmar. Why do you have a problem with Venmar advocating a wagon on himself and not with Chara advocating a town lynch (at the very least you're not showing the same emotions about the two).

To reiterate: I am 100% Chara is Town by now (I know them well enough to be this confident in my read), and I have a Scum lean on Venmar. My problem is not with your feelings about the players but with your reaction to the situations.

@A50: Please confirm your lost vote by voting for someone! Thanks!

Too late now

Oh, also: A50, when was your vote stolen? Midday, at day start? Were you told anything about the source of the vote steal? Like if it was a card used by someone?

The PM was received about 160 minutes before I made that post.

Nothing about the source or method. It just says I can still vote using creatures if I had any.

I was notified it was returned just over 29 hours later, if that helps.

Hmm, so someone temporarily stole your vote in the middle of the phase. You were targeted by a day action in that case, not something triggered during the pregame phase(unless of course there was a built in delay for the resolution of the ability). In addition, the return happened in the middle of a phase, and not exactly 24 or 48 or something hours later, also indicating that the steal wasn't timed, it was a conscious decision/action submitted by someone in the middle of the day for both the steal and the return.

All good things to know.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

ok Bee who am I locking town 100% of the time?

Are you going to read what you've missed so far?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: Micc

You're so nice.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You messed it up Titus. I believe you needto leave the vote there until they lock their vote on the smaller wagon, and then swapping to them will unlock their vote. or something like that.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Cerb you dont appear to be voting anyone

~B

And I still haven't heard from Drixx, whose agreement I need before doing something like enabling someone else's powers.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Like, here's the problem...you have access to mana through other means.

Mana does not transfer through phases.

Cards, however, do.

That means needing this mana here, this way, is either to enable an expensive, and likely powerful card, OR it's to enable a multi-color card, which is similarly powerful for it's cost.

So I'm not just helping you do a random thing, I'm helping you do a random thing that's probably powerful, and probably best if done early, which makes me leery of just doing it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You probably shouldn't have claimed that you copied him. :-/

Alignments were randomly distributed after roles were designed though, so you shouldn't be concerned about his role actually making him seem suspicious.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also you shoulda waited to copy cuz if Drixx let me I was gonna tell you to copy us.

Ah well.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Varsoon: When a new creature comes into play, could you make it clear which owner they belong to? (I know it's not stated who owns what, but you said they'd be grouped)

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Cool. So we know that Chara does not control either of the two W creatures in play, and that both of those W creatures have different owners. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Interesting assumption.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Creatures came out when I assisted. I expected at least one to be Maid. I'm surprised two at once.

~Titus

The Champion was already in play long before you assisted. Alisae claimed responsibility for the Elemental, because she got it from copying Micc. The only possible creature that would have come from MC is the Mother of Runes, and that card doesn't make ANY sense as being significant enough for them to want to rush to get it into play.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Creatures came out when I assisted. I expected at least one to be Maid. I'm surprised two at once.

~Titus

The Champion was already in play long before you assisted. Alisae claimed responsibility for the Elemental, because she got it from copying Micc. The only possible creature that would have come from MC is the Mother of Runes, and that card doesn't make ANY sense as being significant enough for them to want to rush to get it into play.

-Cerb

I would. It's the type of card that can protect powerful town abilities.

Do you think that the Elemental and Parrish can share an alignment?

...

Maybe they're just bad, but there's no reason to not play the mother of runes until something is already in play that you want to protect, OR at the least wait until the very end of the day phase to play it, if you're concerned about wasting the mana.

I'm not going to speculate about the alignments of the creatures in play, because 1) roles were created before alignments were assigned, and 2) they haven't done *anything* to indicate the alignment of their owner.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Like, the mother of runes is *vulnerable* right now, and it's not actually accomplishing anything. Whoever used it is aware enough of magic colors to choose a color that will reduce the number of things that can hurt it, which means they should also be aware enough of the sheer number of threats posed by all the other colors...threats sufficient to keep them from playing it and locking it into a certain protective mode so early.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I would gladly answer this for you but I have 0 interest in working with you!

well that seems unnecessarily obtuse.

Also for those who I am willing to cooperate with
It's right here

@Bee - Ur probably town judging by post count cuz either you lurk early and Claire does the heavy lifting if you were scum

and this doesn't do anything for me. it being your only stated read besides sheeping beeboy on me just feels like a slap in the face.

I don't know why I thought joining a large where everybody else was buddy buddy with each other was a good idea.

Micc. Interact with everybody else more often. This has less to do with the people playing here knowing one another, and more with you not having a whole lot of content. You're asking questions, but you're not forming a lot of opinions(or at least, not expressing those opinions) yourself.

Any significant conclusions you've reached so far?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And for the record, I'm fairly certain Alisae's reticence towards working with you is because they scumread you, and they're one of those people who don't like to talk to scum reads. I disagree with that sort of play, but, it is what it is.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

oh yeah btw cases are scummy.

I only make cases.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

We are pulling our hair out trying to work with OTM.

They haven't done things that make me, for example, suspect them, but they're definitely not playing in a fashion that makes it likely they'll wield any influence anytime soon.

Titus wants thoughts sans associatives, I want a succinct case on Skybird so I can try to understand what OTM sees.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

It is true though that you might be the common thread among all those who have posted explicit town reads.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Umm.

That post wasn't directed at you OTM. It was clarifying the situaton for Alisae.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, please don't feel any pressure. I'll be happy reading up on what you have to say tomorrow as much as tonight.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@OTM: Reasons for suspecting Sky bird make sense, particularly the lack of follow-up in the inquiries she makes. I dislike the "feel"/interpretative parts of the case, where you say a certain action is her doing something, but her not doing things makes sense to me. How does all this relate to Iconeum?

@Yume: roles were created before alignments were assigned, Alisae certainly isn't scum because she has a mana stealing ability, AND that ability isn't even hers, it came from Micc, so even if the ability were AI, it would indicate Micc was scum. I don't particularly like that she immediately used it to steal from you, Alisae seems like largely a loose cannon when it comes to using powers, but I wouldn't say any of it makes her likely scum.

@Micc: can you(or anyone else, I suppose) explain the Venmar townread in a way that doesn't reference gut or feelings?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

OTM, it's been almost a year since I last played mafia. I don't have the time I used to have available to play. It has altered my play style, unfortunately in a scummy direction. That being said, I'm all good with being the D1 lynch. OTM and Mastina/Yume are certain I am scum. All of them are extremely stubborn and do not readily admit to being wrong. Therefore they will scum read me for the rest of the game which is something scum will be able to use later should I live very long.

Cerb, thanks for showing me the post on the 8 planes. I was concerned you were covering for Bee Boy. Right now I'm thinking this might be town RR. But I would really like to see Drixx post.

pre-edit: We were in a PT during that game and I used it to my advantage as scum. It made me feel like shit but it's what I had to do to help my team win.

I would also really like to see a Drixx post. :/ Didn't respond to my messages yesterday.

You should know better than to think I'd cover for a teammates screwup on D1.

Your response here us unsatisfying regards what OTM had to say. Can you go back to the questions and points they made, such as dropping lines of inquiry for no real reason, and voting in places other than where it seemed to make sense for you to vote based on what you said, and explain your thought process.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@OTM: Reasons for suspecting Sky bird make sense, particularly the lack of follow-up in the inquiries she makes. I dislike the "feel"/interpretative parts of the case, where you say a certain action is her doing something, but her not doing things makes sense to me. How does all this relate to Iconeum?

@Yume: roles were created before alignments were assigned, Alisae certainly isn't scum because she has a mana stealing ability, AND that ability isn't even hers, it came from Micc, so even if the ability were AI, it would indicate Micc was scum. I don't particularly like that she immediately used it to steal from you, Alisae seems like largely a loose cannon when it comes to using powers, but I wouldn't say any of it makes her likely scum.

@Micc: can you(or anyone else, I suppose) explain the Venmar townread in a way that doesn't reference gut or feelings?

-Cerb

Will type up the Iconeum answer later. And Venmar

Can you please express why you don’t townread Venmar?

Because no reason to town read Venmar exists. He's done effectively nothing but ask to be the second biggest wagon at day end.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

OTM. I don't have firm stances this early in games. Ever. That's the thing you're expecting from me that doesn't make sense.

Venmar: again, not discrediting you. I'm saying I've seen nothing from you that's notable.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hmm.

Actually, I just reread your iso.

You've done more than I remembered, Venmar. I think your tendency to mix complete shipposts in with your content may have caused me to disregard you prematurely.

Still don't think you've done anything especially town, but you haven't done as little as I thought you had.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

OTM. I don't have firm stances this early in games. Ever. That's the thing you're expecting from me that doesn't make sense.

Venmar: again, not discrediting you. I'm saying I've seen nothing from you that's notable.

-Cerb

Can you just agree to the four possible worlds or disagree with it?

Lol, sure. You missed the possible world where one or both of them is a third party role, but other than that yes, you are correct.

-Cerb