VARSOON VARIETY HOUR : GAME SCRAPPED

[Bronya Zaychik]

Hi. I'm shadowing my lovely hydra partner who will be here tomorrow.

[Bronya Zaychik]

My birthday is the 14th so I will be paying attention but whatever Kiana wants is what we do.

FoS OnTheMark though.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Nice

STEVEN UNIVERSE II 2.0

Why you say that?

[Bronya Zaychik]

Mastina when I ain’t out with my bros we need to legit talk.

Beeboy said your shit was antitown and claimings like antitoen and shit then asks you to claim like uhm? Huh?

I have a goal of d1 never calling anyone scum like at all. I have noticed when I push no one day one and just ask a shit ton of questions I find a shit ton of scum so talk with me gorgeous <3

Hmph. When did this goal start?

[Bronya Zaychik]

Kiana and I TR RR and Creature strongly.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Please bear with me and Kiana. It's my birthday tomorrow and she is having technical difficulties. As of 8 hours ago, Kiana TL On the Mark and Shining Dreamers.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Kiana checking in.

I've been keeping up with the thread, everything's well and good. Titus is great and expressed my reads on players dutifully. We'll make a great team.

@OnTheMark, Why do you want me to find something disagree with you with? I'm townreading you. Do you want me to specifically look through your posts and find something to disagree about?

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

So, to summarize, my reads are this:

Strong townread: RR, Creature.
Townread: OnTheMark, Shining Dreamers.

Lighter townread on Venmar and Chara.


I've decided to be less transparent about my scumreads for now. However, I have good confidence about my reads this game, which suggests that they are most likely right.

[Bronya Zaychik]

The reason for being less transparent with my scumreads is I am worried about getting nightkilled this game. Getting eliminated by scum is minus equity. A dead Bronya is a useless Bronya.

I'll personally make sure that my slot is obvious town enough to avoid day lynches (since, well, Titus is weaker in that area), so that already puts my slot on scum's threatlist. We have a game plan to survive till late game. So, please bear with us.

[Bronya Zaychik]

I'd love to be able to talk to someone right now (most preferable choice: Chara), because me and Titus will be busy in the upcoming days, but it appears that nobody is online at the moment.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Kiana checking in.

I've been keeping up with the thread, everything's well and good. Titus is great and expressed my reads on players dutifully. We'll make a great team.

@OnTheMark, Why do you want me to find something disagree with you with? I'm townreading you. Do you want me to specifically look through your posts and find something to disagree about?

~Kiana

I want to make sure I am not being buddied.

Generally I am used to more resistance to my ideas.

I am legit concerned that I am going to be buddied. The easiest way I can sort that is to find some disagreement and then examine it and see if the points seem valid or not. However with too much agreement that’s really hard. I am a rather vocal player and if I am wrong I can easily see people propping me up. I mean I have had that concern and just been right but it’s more I kinda wanna get a feel. Right now I can’t get that from your slot.

Okay, then how about I go for this one: I'll disagree with this very post itself then.

I'm glad that you are aware of your own weaknesses, that you have a blind spot for scum who may be trying to buddy you; this is good self-awareness of your strengths and weaknesses and makes you a better player! But, I don't believe that it's likely that many scum, if any, will be planning to specifically target you to be buddied; you're an anonymous account with an obfuscated name and reputation. Scum would likely target the "big fish" for buddying, rather than you who is putting on a mask to hide your true identity.

And, to add on, even if scum were trying to buddy you, then that means that player has a certain heightened degree of skill; your current method of wanting to specifically obtain a "disagreement" is inefficient and perfunctory at best. That player would be more than likely to perform the full job and go all the way to complete the "buddying" process. It is not difficult at all to "find a disagreement" and answer your questions.

Honestly, if you feel that your scumhunting ability is weak, that's fine! What I suggest you to do is to find a townread or two that you trust, then work with them to solve the game. It's okay to let stronger players tackle the scumhunting if you know you're weaker at that area, all you need is to give them your support, and cooperate with everyone, and it will advance town wincon. You don't have to try too hard and force yourself to do something that you know you're weak at. Again, knowing your strengths and weaknesses is a good thing, it's even better if you know how to work on them and capitalize on your strengths!

[Bronya Zaychik]

The reason for being less transparent with my scumreads is I am worried about getting nightkilled this game. Getting eliminated by scum is minus equity. A dead Bronya is a useless Bronya.

this post has me curious. why did you feel the need to explain being less transparent?

on the topic of transparency of reads i wouldnt be opposed to hearing why you're townreading your list

While I find the meta point on OnTheMark to be a valid concern, literally everything else about Maid Cafe in that entire conversation is trash, and absolutely wasn't a productive exercise in scumhunting; the questions were obtuse in a way I wouldn't consider town. The entire time, I was siding with primarily Chara/OnTheMark

i just simply disagree? i think cafe was pretty blunt and forward, to the point, not obtuse. i think you're discrediting them more than scumreading them.

Hello!

I just simply would like to state that fact, so I don't come across as having "no scumreads". That would be far too foolish beyond the norm for me. I have scumreads, it's just that I do not wish to disclose them at the moment.

I'll be happy to explain my townreads. Creature is posting frequently, even in postgame, and as many people know (including yourself ) Creature has a very alignment indicative posting style / meta; he is incapable of playing scum and will therefore lurk when he gets that alignment. He is in fact doing the opposite of lurking in this game, and that cements him as town. Reasonably Rational I'm going off mainly on tone, they seem town on a deep level; I don't feel that many players beyond the most gifted at scum are able to fake what he has posted so far in the game, and it has only been 16 pages!

[Bronya Zaychik]

*pregame, sorry.

[Bronya Zaychik]

<3 Maki I hope you're not scum today!

If you're scum I'll have to hang you!

At least I'll have Chara helping me!

[Bronya Zaychik]

Chara may always be in your pocket, but not me! Bronya is more accurate than RR, more deadly than RC.

We'll see if you're scum or town later; if I find you town enough you could be of service to me ^_^

[Bronya Zaychik]

Maki who do you think is the towniest player in this game and why?

And tell me your read on Dunnstral.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Please stop ISO-ing players on Page 16, OtM! I don't think it's going to be very productive with so little information on the table, and if they're too long soon people will stop reading them!

[Bronya Zaychik]

wtf I wanna be in the town block
~Maki

Kiana goes first

Too bad, Maki!

[Bronya Zaychik]

I appears that OtM's main account should be a player I know. That player knows me and I should know them. Since the pool of players that I'm familiar with is very small, and some of that pool is already in this game... hmm...

[Bronya Zaychik]

Maki who do you think is the towniest player in this game and why?

And tell me your read on Dunnstral.

Dunn is Null
Venmar and Creature are the most town players because creature can't fake a scum game and vermars answers feels genuine even if I don't agree with some of the answers he has

What is your read on OtM?

[Bronya Zaychik]

Please stop ISO-ing players on Page 16, OtM! I don't think it's going to be very productive with so little information on the table, and if they're too long soon people will stop reading them!

Well it's more, I kinda need to to see where people stand and where my thoughts are. It's kinda a thing I need to do. Would spoiler tags help? I think it's gonna be productive for a few different reasons. Mainly should I be night killed (which is kinda the road the game seems to be heading towards) I need to be more verbose. In the games where I wreck scum in later days the verbosity helped the town left after my NK/turbo mislynch to just power lynch the remaining scum.

Why on earth would scum nightkill you? You're on an anonymous alternate account! They'd be more likely to eliminate the big names like RR first. You might not even be on their threatlist. Making yourself seem like a bigger threat than you actually are, though, may lead them to add you to that list though!

[Bronya Zaychik]

Otm has went from scummy to towny so I'm putting them at null
Meta suggests scum but I feel like some of the sorting they've done feels real so I'll put them at null

What meta do you have on OtM?

[Bronya Zaychik]

I mean if it really bugs people I'll just spoiler tag it.

Okay, I see, so those ISOs are for your own personal use? If that's the case, then yes, I suppose spoilering them will help.

Do take into account however that not everyone will pay attention to your reads until you gain some degree of accuracy credibility. Heck, I don't even think town pays attention to my own reads sometimes!

[Bronya Zaychik]

Being anti town doesn't make it scummy nor does it make it towny it's the reasons behind it
but saying anti town and scummy are the same thing are incorrect
@Ico
Pedit: I will not out there alt.

Well, okay, that's no fair, but that's fair too.

Is OtM supposed to be a player I am supposed to know, or are they someone I haven't played with before?

[Bronya Zaychik]

Hmm, then that means it's a player I haven't played with before. My completed games all have Maki in it because she's so awesome! <3

(Actually, just a coincidence. But part where Maki is awesome is true.)

[Bronya Zaychik]

I mean if it really bugs people I'll just spoiler tag it.

Okay, I see, so those ISOs are for your own personal use? If that's the case, then yes, I suppose spoilering them will help.

Do take into account however that not everyone will pay attention to your reads until you gain some degree of accuracy credibility. Heck, I don't even think town pays attention to my own reads sometimes!

Kinda both. Mainly it's weird. I'm a player no one listens to when alive, but if things kinda seem to be going correctly and I die, I get listened to a lot at death.

I also kinda don't recognize you. I recognize Titus but not you. I feel like I should but I don't so I'm treating you like a null entity for now and it's kinda why I townread the slot. Titus I just quite frankly give up on reading and since she's in a hydra and has to share you're alignment I'm just going to read you.

It's one of the reasons I'm kinda pissed at the Tibor response. It's a courtesy if in a hydra to keep players informed of if one head V/LAs or what not. Both slots do contribute. While they do share the same alignment if only one person is playing the game (unless outed as a coaching hydra) it's scummy as fuck to keep one head silent.

That's fine. I myself have significantly better accuracy when reading "null entities", as you put it, as compared to friends, because sometimes I don't want to scumread friends even though they are actually scum

But I'll be happy to work with you and I'd be interested to see if your reads are as good as you are claiming them to be, or is it another case of RC-syndrome.

If you're an anonymous account though, I don't think players will listen to your reads regardless because you don't have the reputation that your main account goes off.

[Bronya Zaychik]

I actually have much more respect when my name isn't attached. I've got a few sites where I'm almost an instant NK even over PRs now. I'm just working on getting this one to the same point, hence the alt account and deliberating trying to change my meta. I think if on MS, that you are required to be popular to be listened to and have your reads examined after death, that seems to be a flaw of MS. That's typically not the case on sites like MU, DLP, and a couple of proboards sites. That results in an easily exploitable meta for scum and it's something I am unashamed to admit I have used on MS.

Sorry, I couldn't parse these sentences. I think you accidentally started rambling!

Well, I disagree with what *I think* you are trying to say. Being "popular" to be listened to is not symptomatic of MS, it's apparently how the world works: Your track record creates a reputation, and that reputation creates trust, which is tied to your name or brand. This happens on every site: recognized names get listened to more than random players; and even in the office, the "popular" guy or the one with a better reputation gets listened to more often. I don't think that's necessarily an issue, as long as said reputation is justly earned and verified over the course of a couple of games, instead of something that is bogus or assigned. Given that MS.net is more of a community website, I believe this isn't a large issue.

Are you saying that you are trying to get this specific alternate account to the same level of revere and reputation as your main account? Well, that would be an interesting challenge, for sure. You must demonstrate a good track record of catching scum with this account though! And you'll also have to deal with the fact that certain players with certain overrate and undeserved egos will think that they are better than you, and try to strongarm lynches and override your reads, when, oh boy, they really just don't know.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Since your current account seems to be created on this site at around the same time as mine has been, it appears that we are on fair and level ground. You technically have more of an advantage, since you're already from this site; you have the meta on players on this site that I do not have. Yet, I am absolutely fine with allowing this handicap, since I read "null entities" more accurately, I'm fine with you having a "meta advantage".

Game on!

[Bronya Zaychik]

Every post made so far has been by the Kiana head.

[Bronya Zaychik]

A person with a track record of being 100% right during that game, gets NK'd, flips town, should be given a lot more weight, regardless of their prior track history.

But a counterargument with that would be the gambler's fallacy: Just because a random player has 2 correct scumreads does not mean that he has the 3rd one correct; what if it's just luck? If a player who always uses an RNG to perform scumhunting somehow had 100% correct reads in a game, would you still trust his reads even after they're dead? With his track record, it'd be pretty easy to tell, but what if we're following your ideal of not using prior track records to judge a player? What then?

[Bronya Zaychik]

Okay, sure, have a good rest. It was pretty fun talking to you.

[Bronya Zaychik]

A person with a track record of being 100% right during that game, gets NK'd, flips town, should be given a lot more weight, regardless of their prior track history.

But a counterargument with that would be the gambler's fallacy: Just because a random player has 2 correct scumreads does not mean that he has the 3rd one correct; what if it's just luck? If a player who always uses an RNG to perform scumhunting somehow had 100% correct reads in a game, would you still trust his reads even after they're dead? With his track record, it'd be pretty easy to tell, but what if we're following your ideal of not using prior track records to judge a player? What then?

It doesn't necessarily mean that the player is correct. However, gambler's fallacy in this case doesn't apply.

Mafia is not a game of luck, it's a game of skill. If mafia was a game of luck it would apply.

However since mafia is a game of skill and logic, the scientific theory applies. Meaning that you have a hypothesis:
Player X (who was NK'd) had good reads in this game.In fact, Player X hasn't been wrong yet. Until there is evidence that is presented to counter them being wrong, they should be listened to. The evidence has been presented that they are right. Evidence therefore needs to be presented that they are wrong before they quit being listened to.

The track records, are a separate matter. In general Player X could be good or atrocious. That's not relevant to this game. However if they are atrocious and are doing the same atrocious things then it WOULD be relevant. However, a track record ALONE is not enough. It has to be combined with a pattern of some evidence in this game. What the problem is that someone goes "Player X has a 75% win rate as town" therefore their reads are right and should be listened to. And that is the real gambler's fallacy as it's not based on any evidence in game.

Take a look again. Because of the very fact that mafia is a game of skill, all the more should track records apply. It's the same reasoning why you'd ask the class's Math genius for help on your math homework instead of the perennial failures: the Math genius has a track record of actually being good in a skill-based subject of expertise, and is therefore more trusted to be correct in a situation where the answers are unknown.

If Player X was an entirely anonymous and random player with no track record, then, sure, the only thing that we can go off to judge his level of skill is purely by his performance in this one game. However, if he is a known jester with a track record of reads that are totally off the mark (pun not intended), then it would be foolish to listen to his reads regardless of his performance in any game, because there is concrete data that Player X is no more accurate than coinflips. There are consequences to making mistakes in this game; it isn't a science experiment (well, usually... I guess?) where we can make mistakes and move on -- there is an active penalty for getting "Evidence to prove them wrong". And, this brings to light another problem: What if Player X is Correct, Correct, Wrong, Correct on his reads? His final correct scumread would quit being listened to, just because he was Wrong once. Worse, Player X goes Wrong, Correct, Correct, Correct.

Your ideals presented effectively prioritize the order of correct reads instead of general accuracy, which would be a flaw that would be corrected if players take into account track records, which, appears to be the current system, so I'm happy with that. The only issue that I may see being presented is a misinterpretation of the track records, for example Player Y is overrated, and is actually worse at the game than advertised, but that's the fault of the enactment in that current situation rather than the system itself. So, I cannot agree with you here.

[Bronya Zaychik]

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

Player X (who was NK'd) had good reads in this game.

I think a more reasonable situation to your conundrum is the fact that Player X was NK'd due to the exact reason that his reads were correct. It is the cause, not symptomatic. If Player X was Nightkilled because his reads are all Correct, then yes, it would be ideal for the rest of the players to follow the rest of Player X's reads, because that was the reason why he was killed in the first place.

But, if Player X is a known troll, he should never be listened to, and he will probably never be nightkilled regardless of his performance in any game, simply because his presence in the game is a liability and will likely help scum advance their wincon. Regardless of his performance in the game, it is evident from past data that his current accuracy in the current game is attributed to luck and nothing more; reducing the argument of the accuracy of his future reads to be nothing more than the gambler's fallacy itself.

I hope I solved that dissonance for you.

[Bronya Zaychik]

EBWOP:

I think a more reasonable

solution*

to your conundrum is the fact that Player X was NK'd due to the exact reason that his reads were correct. It is the cause, not symptomatic. If Player X was Nightkilled because his reads are all Correct, then yes, it would be ideal for the rest of the players to follow the rest of Player X's reads, because that was the reason why he was killed in the first place.

But, if Player X is a known troll, he should never be listened to, and he will probably never be nightkilled regardless of his performance in any game, simply because his presence in the game is a liability and will likely help scum advance their wincon. Regardless of his performance in the game, it is evident from past data that his current accuracy in the current game is attributed to luck and nothing more; reducing the argument of the accuracy of his future reads to be nothing more than the gambler's fallacy itself.

I hope I solved that dissonance for you.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Spoiler: me

Who are you, and are you trying to beleaguer the glorious Chara avatar?

~kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

Spoiler: me

Who are you, and are you trying to beleaguer the glorious Chara avatar?

~kiana

Be warned heretic, that if you make any attempt at blaspheming the holy Chara or her avatar, you will be in for a lot of pain.

[Bronya Zaychik]

@On The Mark, Are Rubicon and Sloth still on DLP? What was your favorite game and role there?

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

This is far too early for VCA.

Let's let things develop. We need wagons with actual lynch threat.

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

This is far too early for VCA.

Let's let things develop. We need wagons with actual lynch threat.

~Titus

Om we agree. Can I have my puppy?

You can have a cookie. Gluten free even.

[Bronya Zaychik]

@On the Mark, we love all Creatures.

[Bronya Zaychik]

historically, a scum lynch on day 1 is actually worse for town. sometimes, it can work out wonderfully despite that. but for the most part, i'd call it bad. Maki knows what i mean.

therefore, seeing as my role powers up on town deaths, and a day 1 scum lynch is bad for town, i propose we collectively agree to lynch town. i know it sounds silly, but it makes sense. i hate seeing town do well on the first day only to tank every other.

VOTE: Mark

Chara, you saying this is very worrying, especially when it does not seem that you are joking! I hope you are reaction testing! Because this makes me very worried, it is the most absurd thing I have ever heard! Town should always make their best efforts to lynch scum, especially on Day 1! Correlation is not equal to causation; the only reason why the town loses after lynching scum correctly Day 1 is because the town was bad, and they got lucky Day 1, that's all! The only time we should ever lynch town Day 1 is if RC is in the game, then we lynch RC because he will be scum MVP.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Kiana: it/its or they/them, please, especially if what you're doing is defending my honour. :>

Oops. Sorry! I am not used to this! :<

Please forgive me!
<3

[Bronya Zaychik]

667 was made by Titus but unsigned.

The above are made by Kiana.

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

FYI it’s public info my main got outed since the micro finished.

I am MathBlade aka Roundabout on MU. I am alting to improve my play on MS and take some MU things that work here and because I wanna have an account separate the more I go on a life journey. Since it’s public knowledge on MU I don’t think it’s fair not to announce it here but I was hoping that micro would last a bit longer damn.

Hi!

It turns out that I do recognize your name! But I don't know you personally! And neither you do, for me. So, it won't affect my ability to sort you as a "null entity"

Incidentally, before your main was revealed, I had to ask Titus to try to ID you because I wanted to know how strong you were, and if you were as powerful as you claimed; Titus plays on MU and DLP as well, so I figured she would be helpful with this. But, then, with some clues, I managed to guess that your identity anyway! Titus was still being mean and told me "I cannot confirm or deny" when I asked her if I was right... hmph!!

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

I am beginning to townread Skybird. Let me express my suspicion hereforth on players who attempt to paint her as scummy.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Baka and munna also making some posts here that I like.

Spoiler:

hey, this argument is pointless, can we nix it. you're talking around each other. Mark's underlined bit means investigative roles to them, and his logic on this has been consistent. i don't think any more semantics are going to help.

I am going to claim something I prolly should have approached subtly but it heavily helps the town to target us with actions that grants our slots abilities/items/whatever you wanna call it. When we gain an ability as a result of another player/Creature's spell or ability (which is all actions) we will "power up", well not exactly but I don't really want to claim that part. But essentially just give us free stuff since it's more cost effective then giving other players stuff in a pretty meaningful way.
~B

I am fairly certain this is a >random scum ability.

Not just from a game design perspective, but from a Varsoon game design perspective.

It's the kind which

could

come from town, admittedly, yes. But it is still far >random odds of being a scum ability.

Claiming it openly does nothing to lessen that.

are people incapable of reading game mechanics?

ok so preliminary reads. I reckon Maid Cafe is town. i was agreeing to a large extent on their push on Mark. gonna put mark as a scumlean for now.
however, i am more confident in my scumlean on chara. they are townsignalling without actually generating any content. Seems like a better LAMIST.
RR is already a townread but i put very little stock in that bc i always tr them
venmar is a townlean, i respect the shitpost.
those were my main opinions on what I've read so far, will confer with Shiro before going more in depth.

@Cerb — Name one thing you disagree with me strongly on and one thing you disagree with me but it’s meb.

@Kiara (the other part of the Titus hydra) same question.

I am thinking I might be rescinding the Cerb TR.

Nope. Nothing immediately comes to mind, which means I probably don't strongly disagree with you on anything(or else I'd have already said so) and I don't particularly feel like reading your ISO simply to satisfy your curiousity about some insignificant difference in opinion.

The implication of your question+statement is that you believe I've been subtly buddying you by echoing/failing to disagree with statements you've made. Let me say this again: you are overestimating how much significance I place on your slot.

I believe the only people I might consider buddying are Titus and mastina, and that would simply be to spare Drixx the unhappiness that he experiences when those particular people fail to trust him regardless of what he does.

Oh, and maybe random, cuz I want to be a in PT with him cuz tradition!
-Cerb

could still happen


people are confusing chara doing protown things with it meaning they are more likely to be town. only reason i'm not going after them hard rn is that they were arguing with iconeum who has also been scummy and want to think about that more.
not seeing any of the same townvibes from shining dreamers that other people seem to be.
RR, Venmar and Maid Cafe are probs town imo. OTM is either town of playing an extremely smart scum game.

talk to me plz ppl (this is rando btw incase that wasn't obvious)

i got slight scum vibes from shining dreamers push on maid cafe. it seemed like they started from the position "we're pushing maid cafe" rather than either "we are looking at evidence for maid cafe's alignment" or "we think maid cafe is scum, what evidence supports this" but nothing too strong atm
Venmar is a 100% gut read. it could be bias but i think he is at the very least genuine in his opinions, and am leaning town.
Maid Cafe is that i was on their side in the pregame arguments making me think they were town.
OTM is playing misguided town to a T. A lot of wrong pushes but they genuinely believe them and are trying to solve the game.

i got slight scum vibes from shining dreamers push on maid cafe. it seemed like they started from the position "we're pushing maid cafe" rather than either "we are looking at evidence for maid cafe's alignment" or "we think maid cafe is scum, what evidence supports this" but nothing too strong atm
Venmar is a 100% gut read. it could be bias but i think he is at the very least genuine in his opinions, and am leaning town.
Maid Cafe is that i was on their side in the pregame arguments making me think they were town.
OTM is playing misguided town to a T. A lot of wrong pushes but they genuinely believe them and are trying to solve the game.

Where do you think I am right and where do you think I am wrong?

1v1 with maid cafe, early townbloccing. nothing you were right on springs to mind.

people are confusing chara doing protown things with it meaning they are more likely to be town. only reason i'm not going after them hard rn is that they were arguing with iconeum who has also been scummy and want to think about that more.

so, what does town do if not protown things? :>

things with town motivation.

i would guess the vote moves via privately messaging Varsoon.
but, as usual, your questions are quite thorough.

pedit: :<

Mark, is there a reason you enjoy swooping to my defense so valiantly?

It is not to your defense.

I am about to case Reasonably Rational and show how irrational and contradictory Cerb is being.

Odd that you respond to this and not the Skybird vote.

Then after I get done if someone townreads RR then tell me why.

cerb is many things
irrational is not one of them
RR is obv towning tbh, they are asking the right questions and moving the game forwards.
P.edit - i would be happy voting chara rn but want to talk to shiro first

[Bronya Zaychik]

Damn it,

Varsoon

could you be a dear and help me fix the tags in the above post please?

V: Taken care of.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Sorry for recgonizing you. :/

Use the neighbor on two townreads who bicker. See Denmark mafia. If only one, pick a hard townread.
Use the PGO on someone who screams town protective.
Hold the show dog until you need to prove your woofiness.

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

@On the Mark, we love all Creatures.

I love all subtlety.

This is where I 100% knew you were you btw. It's a unique brand on retort. Although I suspected when you first copped to being an alt + awkward sounding language.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Hard-townreading OTM. His 1v1 with Tibor and Lumia, I believe it could be a TVS fight. I feel like T&L were trying to find all kinds of reaons to shade OTM, even trying to use activity as a scum indicator.

Then why aren't you voting T and L?

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

VOTE: Iconeum

VOTE: Iconeum

Sure. I would have preferred you stayed on T and L a bit longer for VCA but this works well for pressure.

As for the other question, reask towards the end of d1. My hydra partner and I both think the game is moving too slow. I'd still use the same standards though atm.

[Bronya Zaychik]

can anyone with more meta comment on almost50's entry? am i the only one that feels like he's under-contributing than what i'd expect?

Yes.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Mark, Please let this go. I don't want a devolve theory discussion.

Feel free to comeback later or cop them if you need to.

If you don't lynch RR today, they still lead to buddy lynches if scum. I also really don't want them to be scum as I really want a game where we work together.

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

I also have this weird issue.
I should be town reading Titus but i am not.

~B

On what basis should you be townreading Titus? I can understand having a read one way or another on the other head, but not Titus, given the utter banality of their contributions so far.

-Cerb

To be clear, your position is no one should be able to read me town or scum?

I am here now. Let's dance?

[Bronya Zaychik]

Mark, Please let this go. I don't want a devolve theory discussion.

Feel free to comeback later or cop them if you need to.

If you don't lynch RR today, they still lead to buddy lynches if scum. I also really don't want them to be scum as I really want a game where we work together.

~Titus

I think OTM already let it go when they saw nobody was actually buying into their case. As I said, I would have just let it lie myself but there are parts of that push that don't make sense for someone as familiar with me as they are to make.

In other news.

How are you Titus? I haven't talked to you in forever. Your bday was yesterday ya, on Pi Day? Or was that the other head? How was it?

-Cerb

Mine. I still have other engagements throughout the week.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Bronya what are your thoughts on Micc so far?

~B

He has not stood out to me so far.

Thoughts on Iconeum?

~Still Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

Hey Titus, what do you think is the most important thing to know about a closed setup when it comes to solving the game, other than the alignments of the players?

-Cerb

Their motivations. Why players act determines so much more than what. That is why when you hooded me in SU2 and reacted negatively to my steal I suspected you were scum. Not because of you hooding me but what you did when you got there. Once Farside was mathmatically town and scum had to use Math to avoid giving conftown power without outing, the possibilities for who was intellectually focused enough to be likely were narrowed dramatically. The fact we forced you to use your event was tbh your undoing although you thought it cleared you. I still can never lynch you as scum. It happens after my death.

Long diatribe aside certain players have certain skillsets. How they use those skills is indicative of alignment.

Relating this to me I will do a VCA if RL permits but my analysis of the VCs will reveal what I value. My values strongly suggest my alignment since I don't like losing anyone on my team as either alignment unless necessary or the boon is too great.

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

@Cerb, Mechanical Question?

[Bronya Zaychik]

RR, Shall we have our obligatory fight? Mark ruined the pressure on Iconeum.

@Mark, Your rapid votes pressure none of your targets atm. :/

[Bronya Zaychik]

Here's another, similar question, that relates the previous one to this game:

What is the most important thing about *this* game to know more about, excluding anything related to specific players.

Is it knowing how mana can be generated?
Is it knowing what different cards can do?
Is it knowing what factionals scum have?
Is it knowing what abilities players might have?


Etc. Purely mechnical knowledge, untied to specific players.

-Cerb

pedit: Naw micc, I'm not in any hurry to wagon anyone, I'm getting plenty of data with the way things are right now, I just found it interesting that you didn't move your vote elsewhere.

It's very useful for both alignments to predict behavior. Which is more useful varies from card to card and player to player. Knowledge explains behavior. Therefore, if a player has a role that impacts other players behavior

and they are aware of it

transparency is best. This applies in mana stealers, millers, and other anti-town things.

Knowing what scum can do creates a box of therefore what they likely cannot do. This allows for coordination without outing our roles.

Mana generation is very low tier for knowledge until late game, assuming not player specific here. Both alignments (unless a planet picker exists) would view it as random chance.

Cards and abilities is your standard rolefish and I can't see how it applies generally but only to certain slots.

So out of the four, I'd pick scum ability knowledge

knowing what I know now anyway.

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

RR, Shall we have our obligatory fight? Mark ruined the pressure on Iconeum.

@Mark, Your rapid votes pressure none of your targets atm. :/

I am not looking to bring pressure.

I am looking to be memorable.

? You want to be remembered as the dude who pressured no one and spammed? The best way to be remembered...drive a wagon.

[Bronya Zaychik]

I think Taly should copy Chara to see if the miller thing is fake.
Not really show how useful that is though since Chara could just be a scum miller

~B

+1 it is a decent option but may be better. I missed where Chara mentioned copying. Can you quote?

[Bronya Zaychik]

2) I target someone with my Planeswalker ability. For 2 phases, I gain Mana the same way they would, and I gain their abilities. I can only do this once per dayphase.

"And I gain there abilities"

~B

Is Miller an ability or a label?

[Bronya Zaychik]

@Chara: I just want to make sure it's firmly on the record exactly what abilities etc should return a negative result on you, so in case you are actually scum fake claiming miller because you know in Varsoon games there can be multiple millers and therefore the fake claim isn't particularly risky, people know *what*, if any, results they can trust on you.

-Cerb

pedit:@MC: You probably have the coolest spells.

tracker and watcher types shouldn't get any sort of fabricated result from me. you can trust those. but if you're unsure, better to be safe. i remember Undertale where a miller returned as having a killing ability because a hider would have died on them.
come to think of it, i haven't asked if i would kill a hider. i'll do that, but right now i would assume i would, seeing as i'm treated as scum.

pedit: i'd call it a passive ability. if Taly copied all my abilities, Taly would also be a miller.

Ask Varsoon. No assumptions here.

[Bronya Zaychik]

I'm not on board with planning lynches.

Second, I think we should consider tracking all possible uses not the first good one. We shouldn't be chaining lynches based off any investigation. We are fully capable of logical deduction based on any investigation.

@Mark, who would you have Taly copy?

@Cerb, let me get back to you. Any limiting parameters besides not specific player targeting?

[Bronya Zaychik]

Taly is town, mislynch town << This is an issue

What?

Cerb says Taly checks we Lynch Taly.

So if Taly is town that is a problem.

If we don’t Lynch Taly and someone checks Taly
We have no idea if Taly was scum or if the check is genuine or Chara is a Miller.

In the immediate short term yes, but in order to keep the massive unknowns, there is a pool scum cannot kill. This helps our protectives and later in the game. It's how RR was finally boxed in for SU2.

[Bronya Zaychik]

why are we sacrificing Taly to check me in the first place? i don't need to be towncleared, i don't get mislynched. sure, it works if i'm lying, and lynching Taly to catch scum me would be fine, but if Taly claims i'm lying, you should lynch

me

.

or we could simply play the game.

Play the game.

Shall we vote on the Mark so he omguses one of us so he is remembered? That will start setting up Maid to get their vote back.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Chara, my question at the top of the page?

[Bronya Zaychik]

Ok. I am scum. You must vote claimed scum right?

[Bronya Zaychik]

So I need 2 wagons that consist of 2 people cross voting.
Then I need 1 of those wagons to be bigger then the other.

P1 - P2, P3
P2 - P1
Would be valid but P1-P3 cannot be me.

Then I need everyone voting P1 to unvote.

~B

"Grow food in dirt? Save time—eat dirt."

Flavor Text : Goblin Gardener

VOTECOUNT 1.05

Maid Cafe (2):

Shining Dreamers, Skybird

Iconeum (1):

Bronya Zaychik

Tibor and Lumia (1):

Venmar

Taly (1):

Micc

OnTheMark (1):

Chara

Almost50 (1):

Tibor and Lumia

Micc (1):

Maid Cafe

Skybird (1):

OnTheMark

Not Voting (8):

Iconeum, baku and munna, Creature, Almost50, Reasonably Rational, SnarkySnowman, Taly, Dunnstral

With 17 Alive, it takes 9 to Lynch.
Deadline

:(expired on 2018-03-27 20:30:00)

There are currently no spells in play.

My bad. Their mana not their vote.

[Bronya Zaychik]

then no, i don't much feel like giving Maid Cafe mana.
also, i want to know how Maki is reading me. <3

Why not? There is greater than a 75% chance that Maid is town, so giving Maid mana is more than likely good.

[Bronya Zaychik]

by that logic, we should give everyone mana because they're all more likely to be town than scum.

Yes. Then we can judge based on what they do with said mana.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Didn't realize Chara had already said it.

Okay. So, how will we know what they do with the mana, without them claiming a shitload?

-Cerb

The same way we have like in any other Varsoona game. Logic, deduction, motivation and detailed notes.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Varsoon designed this game so we use the tools that are given to us.

~B

+1 No one is planning others roles, just enabling their use.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Does anyone outside Mark or Chara have a reason on why we shouldn't rolecop Chara's miller claim?

~B

Rolecopping chara's miller claim is 100% the optimal course to take. That data point should always be gathered, given the means to do so.

-Cerb

pedit: I'm really really annoyed right now Chara.

At this point yes. Do you disagree that enabling all roles is a strong course of action?

[Bronya Zaychik]

Oh look a miller isn't in the game with non alignment indicative roles.

Ya Mark your right fuck me for wanting to rolecop Chara I am fucking awful

~B

I presume this is sarcastic.

[Bronya Zaychik]

@RR, I have an idea. What is the earliest theoretical point where 2 slots could lynch a target supposing 1 death per day (lynch) and 1 kill per night? How many vote addition or removal cards are in play?

This avoids alignment so it may help.

[Bronya Zaychik]

I should just expect everyone, even the people who I respect, to play like shit?

Got it. Will do so going forward.

Expectations officially lowered.

you should stop being incredibly disingenuous. nobody is really below or above any type of play.

This is correct but RR is correct that he should document play he doesn't expect and why.

[Bronya Zaychik]

god, alright. this is making me sick. i'd rather lose this stupid game than have Cerb this pissed at me. i didn't know, i'm sorry, i won't do it again, fuck whatever reason i had for doing it.

RR, Mark, are town. highest confidence is RR town. Tibor/Skybird/Iconeum are scummy. no reads anywhere else at the moment.

Join me on Icon?

[Bronya Zaychik]

@RR, I have an idea. What is the earliest theoretical point where 2 slots could lynch a target supposing 1 death per day (lynch) and 1 kill per night? How many vote addition or removal cards are in play?

This avoids alignment so it may help.

This is for your question thingy.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Shining Dreamers
Chara
Maid Cafe
Venmar
Dunnstral
Reasonably Rational
Baku and Munna

These slots are all town btw ^^

Umm ouch but I mostly agree with this

[Bronya Zaychik]

Had to catch up over 12 pages, a healthy amount to catch up on, a fine pace. Skimmed the thread while I was free but unable to respond. Will only reply to things I find interesting fo brevity.

[Bronya Zaychik]

so far; Skybird's scumread on me is my favourite. i didn't think anyone would actually be bold enough to call that a scum gambit, as though i

actually

believed someone would go along with that.

I don't see what's wrong with Skybird's scumread on you. I'm not scumreading you, but I don't find the reasoning unjustified; your gambit itself was pretty absurd, and would usually provoke a negative response in people who weren't familiar with you.

I'm not sure exactly what the purpose of that discussion was, or what conclusions you obtained from the data as well. Care to share?

~kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

Ran out of time but I'll come to this game later.

Checking in.

It's later. Does this mean you're going to contribute in a meaningful fashion now?

-cerb

Yes. Feel free to chat with the non-Titus head of this hydra.

[Bronya Zaychik]

I find RR's 738 pretty over the top; I agree that Math's case on RR was shoddy and mostly NAI but the response from RR really seems to come from someone with too much time. Too much of a stretch to call it alignment indicative but it is rather more indicative of a type of personality. It helps build an archetype for what to look for in his play in later-game I guess.

This isn't really going to help anyone but just putting this out here for myself to reference later if necessary.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Bronya what are your thoughts on Micc so far?

~B

Since this is addressed to Bronya, I feel obligated to respond to this as well.

Micc has been unmemorable so far at the point of this post.

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

What is the spiciest read that you guys currently have?
Confidence doesn't really matter I am just curious.

~B

I don't like this post, it pings as a useless question.

[Bronya Zaychik]

What is the spiciest read that you guys currently have?
Confidence doesn't really matter I am just curious.

~B

my spiciest read is my scumread on you two.

Quality posting from Chara.

One more reason to join the Chara fanclub!

[Bronya Zaychik]

so far; Skybird's scumread on me is my favourite. i didn't think anyone would actually be bold enough to call that a scum gambit, as though i

actually

believed someone would go along with that.

I don't see what's wrong with Skybird's scumread on you. I'm not scumreading you, but I don't find the reasoning unjustified; your gambit itself was pretty absurd, and would usually provoke a negative response in people who weren't familiar with you.

I'm not sure exactly what the purpose of that discussion was, or what conclusions you obtained from the data as well. Care to share?

~kiana

Except if memory serves Skybird is familiar with Chara. Or is at least familiar with gambits from Mass Effect. The way Skybird is reacting doesn’t feel authentic.

That may be so, but are they part of The Chara Fanclub?

[Bronya Zaychik]

I would have the following players in my towncore:

Myself, RR, OntheMark, Chara, Creature

Venmar and Shining Dreamers are on the waiting list.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Kiana and I TR RR and Creature strongly.

So, to summarize, my reads are this:

Strong townread: RR, Creature.
Townread: OnTheMark, Shining Dreamers.

Lighter townread on Venmar and Chara.


I've decided to be less transparent about my scumreads for now. However, I have good confidence about my reads this game, which suggests that they are most likely right.

[Bronya Zaychik]

i'm taking advice from both Ellibereth and Almost

Why take advice from a monkey?

oops that sounded condescending
but I think Chara should be the one giving advice instead!

[Bronya Zaychik]

Can you explain the movements? Chara went from lighter townread, to townread, while Shining Dreamers went from townread to "waiting list", whatever that means.

I don't trust Shining Dreamers enough to townblock them, but I am fine with not lynching them for the time being.

Chara just seems town.

[Bronya Zaychik]

I'd really like Chara to be town.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Interesting. Join me on Skybird needing rope?

No, not scumreading Skybird.

You should join Titus on her Iconeum wagon. I've approved it by the way.

[Bronya Zaychik]

english is my 2nd language, i probably used it wrong. pretentious might've been the right word, i don't know, i just don't think you should punish people for not playing to your high standards. chara's play might've not been the best but you're just shading chara as a player and not just for the play at that point

pedit: re Cerberus

Your english is really good!

[Bronya Zaychik]

Shining Dreamers
Chara
Maid Cafe
Venmar
Dunnstral
Reasonably Rational
Baku and Munna

These slots are all town btw ^^

Why on earth is Dunnstral town?!?!?!?!

Makes me think you pulled these reads out of somewhere the sun doesn't shine.

Bad!

[Bronya Zaychik]

Catching up from page 30 fucking kill me now
Chara is lock town btw like if you ever try to lynch that I will haunt you (I was told about the gambit)
~Maki

IJS, if we get to a 3p lylo with myself, chara, and someone else, chara is probably going to die.

-Cerb

gonna have to make sure you die before Lylo then.
~Maki

:-/. That literally never happens unless I get shot.

-Cerb

noted ^_~
~Maki

Beeboy could have told you that!

-Cerb

Your first mistake is thinking I care about beeboys opinion

I mean, it's not really his opinion.

It's a fact.

The only time we've been lynched before LYLO is in our signature. There may have been one other game where we were scum and sacrificed ourselves to set up a teammate with a better position for a late game win, but I don't remember if that actually happened or if we just talked about doing it.

-Cerb

I actually just clicked your signature, and had the biggest laugh I've had this week!

[Bronya Zaychik]

Can I just pretend the group of people below are all IC's, and go from there? Anybody think that leads to a loss a significant percentage of the time?

OnTheMark
Shining Dreamers (Hydra: Yume & Mastina)
Chara
Baku and Munna (Hydra: Randomidget & Shiro)
Maid Cafe (Hydra: Maki & Beeboy)
Bronya Zaychik (Hydra: Titus & Kiana Kaslana)

-Cerb

We have reservations about OnTheMark and Maid Cafe. Titus abstains for OtM, and since she is a MathBlade expert I will defer to her read there. Maid Cafe isn't all that great and is definitely the odd one out in this list.

I know I said I was willing to townblock OtM, but that's my read. Titus has full power to veto my read on OtM if necessary.

[Bronya Zaychik]

What do you think is more likely, I rngd a list of people to call town and Dunnstral ended up on it and was not aware he had 1 post.
Or I am legit just town who thinks Dunnstral is town as well.

~B

I think the first option is more likely, you "rnged" the list of people to call town.

Or, to be more exact, you picked the safest reads in the game, trying to look useful scumhunting townie, but was not aware that you made a mistake and Dunnstral had only 1 post.

By the way, that post consists of only two letters: "hi".

[Bronya Zaychik]

VOTE: Maid Cafe

[Bronya Zaychik]

Hugs? This has nothing to do with your read on me, I just want to comfort you.

i'm alright now, but i'll never turn down a hug from a player i like. <3

Mee too! Mee too!!

Hug! <3

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

Interesting indeed.

Kiana you wanna explain to me why you don’t scumread Skybird?

I can't explain the absence of a scumread. Why don't you explain your scumread on Skybird instead?

[Bronya Zaychik]

haven't managed to get a read on Bronya yet.

:<

[Bronya Zaychik]

What do you think is more likely, I rngd a list of people to call town and Dunnstral ended up on it and was not aware he had 1 post.
Or I am legit just town who thinks Dunnstral is town as well.

~B

Oooooh oooooh I garcia

No more townblocky for you.

Option C you picked them strategically

I think the notion I'd try and buddy Dunnstral, when my slot contains a person that talks to Dunnstral every day (that person is not me) is kinda a silly one.

~B

Pretty sure the reason is more likely to make it seem you are useful and scumhunting and giving reads but actually you're scum and just put the names of all the people you know are town, including Dunnstral.

[Bronya Zaychik]

I'm current. AMA RR.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Not memorable. Where scum want to be.

And that’s an excellent way to not confront your reads damn.

That's fair enough, but being "not memorable" won't allow a scum to survive until endgame, with a playerlist of this caliber. What's the worry? Eventually they'll have to either get up or go home.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them.

Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read.

Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

If OTM is town (and that's quite possible) this flips scum all the time and I'll prob want to vote here

Skybird, Creature, RR, Shinding D townread.

Maid Café should respond to 237. I love how she bashes OTM for not responding, yet doesn't answer herself.

Maid scumreading right now. Maybe lyncher - lynchee with OTM. That would be hilarious

Why do you townread Skybird I assume it's for the post above because the other 3 posts are just greetings and considering skybird has prob the worst post in the game I'm interested to see your answer.
~Maki

Interesting.

You push Maid Cafe, even switch your vote to them, despite the fact Iconeum pushed Maid Cafe earlier in an unprovoked way. Usually means Iconeum isn’t scum with Maid Cafe. Furthermore it seems like you’re actively ignoring the currents of the person you are voting why?

When Skybird has had major pushes of your scumread they are unremarkable?

This is to Kiana not Titus.

What makes you think that I'd remember posts from 30 pages ago?

[Bronya Zaychik]

I agree there isn’t.

However most of the content Skybird posted, especially early game targets Maid Cafe, same with Iconeum.

Why is Iconeum sticking out and not Skybird?

And how Iconeum did it makes them an unlikely scumpairing. You’re straw manning the point.

Iconeum is scummy. Skybird is not. That's all I have to say on the matter. You're beginning to force your opinions upon me and I don't like that. Please change the topic?

[Bronya Zaychik]

Kiana, at what point dies the pressure one slot puts on another make it unlikely that the two are scum together? Assuming there isn't cause to believe an outright bus is happening/the slot being pessured would have gone down regardless of what the pressuring slot did

-Cerb

If I don't remember the "pressure", then the "pressure" is negligible. If the pressure is negligible, it is also negligible to be taken into account when forming reads.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them.

Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read.

Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

If OTM is town (and that's quite possible) this flips scum all the time and I'll prob want to vote here

Skybird, Creature, RR, Shinding D townread.

Maid Café should respond to 237. I love how she bashes OTM for not responding, yet doesn't answer herself.

Maid scumreading right now. Maybe lyncher - lynchee with OTM. That would be hilarious

Why do you townread Skybird I assume it's for the post above because the other 3 posts are just greetings and considering skybird has prob the worst post in the game I'm interested to see your answer.
~Maki

Interesting.

You push Maid Cafe, even switch your vote to them, despite the fact Iconeum pushed Maid Cafe earlier in an unprovoked way. Usually means Iconeum isn’t scum with Maid Cafe. Furthermore it seems like you’re actively ignoring the currents of the person you are voting why?

When Skybird has had major pushes of your scumread they are unremarkable?

This is to Kiana not Titus.

What makes you think that I'd remember posts from 30 pages ago?

Because you’re playing a conversationalist style.

Either you’re conversing or trying to with everyone to read them

Or you’re playing a reactionary style which can be rather scummy

Or C describe your playstyle.

I don’t expect you to remember every post but I do expect you to see if a wagon is viable and who potential buddies are before pushing it and that would include looking back.

Pedit All I want is a why Skybird is not scummy.

I am not forcing opinions all I want is a clarification of why and it seems like you continually dodge the question.

I never look for associative tells, and therefore never look back to see who "potential buddies" are.

I like conversing and trying to read people but for obvious logistical reasons this cannot be done all the time.

What else do you want to know about my playstyle?

I don't have a good answer to why Skybird is not scummy. I've already said it's gut. Dodging the question is not scummy. If you really want to ask me I'd answer "I don't know". I'm not going to fabricate a read on it like Maid Cafe to retroactively justify my read. Thanks.

[Bronya Zaychik]

I agree there isn’t.

However most of the content Skybird posted, especially early game targets Maid Cafe, same with Iconeum.

Why is Iconeum sticking out and not Skybird?

And how Iconeum did it makes them an unlikely scumpairing. You’re straw manning the point.

Iconeum is scummy. Skybird is not. That's all I have to say on the matter. You're beginning to force your opinions upon me and I don't like that. Please change the topic?

Scummy doesn’t always mean scum.

And scummy doesn’t mean likely partners.

At least one of Iconeum and Maid Cafe are town. I don’t see them in a team and I wanna go after the scummiest players.

I never cared for them being partners. I think they are scum independently. Maid Cafe is my scumread of choice. Iconeum needs to be pressured to see what shakes out and I'm fine with that. Titus wants that wagon and I am also fine with that. I am not opposed to them being dead.

[Bronya Zaychik]

If you don’t have a read on how things would shake or why players are Townie or scummy or any sort of reasons I am not following you off of my top scum pick.

I never said that you needed to follow me onto Maid Cafe. You asked me to follow you onto Skybird and I simply declined. This conversation was a result of that.

However, Titus does want you to follow onto her Iconeum scumread. I'll let her engage with you on that front. I'm fine with Titus moving the vote back onto Iconeum, but I am making the vote on Maid Cafe more as a gesture to make a point.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them.

Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read.

Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

This post tries to continue the Beeboy+Me whatever the fuck that was. Attempts to be divisive without too much of a commitment. They aren’t sure yet they are enough to try to bring others into it. Instead of actively asking a sorting question to figure it out they push. Means if Sky is scum Maid Cafe is lock town.

But if Skybird is town we are none the wiser about Maid Cafe's alignment.

[Bronya Zaychik]

OtM how do you justify Maid Cafe writing a paragraph to justify

locktowning

a player who said a grand total of "hi" in a 46-page thread only after being called out on its absurdity?

[Bronya Zaychik]

This means if Skybird is scum Ico is town and Maid might be scum.

See, it's getting complicated here isn't it. First you said that Skybird scum makes MC locktown, but now after discovering new evidence, Maid may potentially be scum.

I don't see a point for you digging into likely-inaccurate associative tells so early into the game, especially considering the fact that your early predictions have already been proven to be inconsistent with such little evidence.

[Bronya Zaychik]

OtM how do you justify Maid Cafe writing a paragraph to justify

locktowning

a player who said a grand total of "hi" in a 46-page thread only after being called out on its absurdity?

Irrelevant.

I have lockscummed a player for a word on page one and have been right.

Correlation does not imply causation. It's more likely you've just been lucky. How many times have you been wrong? Have you kept track? I bet you didn't.

[Bronya Zaychik]

OtM how do you justify Maid Cafe writing a paragraph to justify

locktowning

a player who said a grand total of "hi" in a 46-page thread only after being called out on its absurdity?

All reads are subject to review.

~B

Your maid status is also subject to performance review.

[Bronya Zaychik]

i'm not talking about stealing mana, i'm talking about informing scum nightkills, and scum power use.

and how Varsoon hates massclaims, explicitly warned us against flavour claims, etc.

maybe it means nothing. but i can guarantee Varsoon did not design this game so that it's a good idea for everyone to claim and coordinate mana stacking.

and this hasn't even touched on the fact i'm not townreading you, so why should i be giving you mana? :<

I dunno people said this about mass claiming not breaking both GiF magical girl games and both got broken via mass claim if people went for it.

I think generally its more pro-town if we all just openly try and get mana. If there are conflicting ways to generate it then we lose maybe 3 people casting spells. Vs me and Maki trying to play like a jester get voted, cross vote under a specific condition then hope that we can walk it off.

Like being hidden about mana generation I think hurts town, I think the game was made so most of us can generate mana, Varsoon wouldn't design cards people can't realistically use and by hiding how i get mana me and maki just get taken off our cards 9/10 times.
Lot's of people can still hiddenly generate mana and don't need to claim conditions.

Scum knowing I always act tonight is strictly better than me not acting.

~B

Others have already reasponded to this but I don't think it's a good thing to let scum know how you generate mana. It makes it easier for them to mess things up for town.

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them.

Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read.

Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

Why is it one or the other? Why can't both be town?
~Lumia

They both might be. The whole argument just felt like MC was being contrary instead of two town talking past each other. (Not sure if contrary is the right word but I'm struggling to come up with a better one at the moment and without re-reading the whole argument.)

historically, a scum lynch on day 1 is actually worse for town. sometimes, it can work out wonderfully despite that. but for the most part, i'd call it bad. Maki knows what i mean.

therefore, seeing as my role powers up on town deaths, and a day 1 scum lynch is bad for town, i propose we collectively agree to lynch town. i know it sounds silly, but it makes sense. i hate seeing town do well on the first day only to tank every other.

VOTE: Mark

I 've heard something like this before but I really don't like the idea of trying to lynch town. I get scrum vibes from this post.

Why? Do you really think mafia are going to campaign for a town lynch? I recall Chara being pretty nutty as scum (or it could be Almost) but she's not nuts.
~Lumia

To propose we purposely try to lynch town is pretty scummy. If she can get a majority of players to agree then we lose a town player. Of course Chara made it sound like a joke in post 556. What better way to play off a scum gambit than to say it was a joke?

Now Skybird makes a push on Chara who is obvTown so the push will go nowhere.

It’s just noise.

I haven’t seen a single positive contribution from the slot.

Okay, it's obvious that you are straight up derptunnelling at this point. Stop. Look back and re-evaluate.

[Bronya Zaychik]

@Kiana: Noted. So does that mean that once the pressure becomes memorable, a slot is less likely to be scum with the slot they're pressuring(given the constraints previously mentioned), and that the more memorable the pressure is, the less likely it is that they're teammates?

In response to your 1131: Do you think MC is the sort of player who would, as scum, make a mistake of that caliber?

-Cerb

A good interpretation in general, yes. Of course, there is no fine line; variables such as the strength of the player to play scum, and his/her tendency to bus must also be taken into account when performing evaluations.

I've seen high levelled scum players goof up their scum fakeclaim in a Mafia Tournament before. It's not unheard of. And everybody makes mistakes. I believe it is highly plausible.

What do you think about OtM's current tunnel on Skybird. Do you see any similarities when they made the case on you, or is this a different bird altogether?

[Bronya Zaychik]

Kiana: are you townreading Mark?

I am currently townreading Mark personally but I won't IC-level them until Titus gives the green light.

[Bronya Zaychik]

OtM how do you justify Maid Cafe writing a paragraph to justify

locktowning

a player who said a grand total of "hi" in a 46-page thread only after being called out on its absurdity?

All reads are subject to review.

~B

Your maid status is also subject to performance review.

Please refrain from personally attacking me

I will personally flip your pantsu if you are bad maid! Personally!

[Bronya Zaychik]

Oh yay!

Titus says to push something and I do.

Then I get called derp tunneling for pushing something and explaining my read as asked and assaults on my skill.

Please tell me to go write “OTM is a good player” then say I am a horrible player for writing it.

I don’t have time for this shit I am going to work.

Let me know when I am allowed to push someone.

I asked you to explain your Skybird scumread, but the way you go about it makes it obvious that you are finding reasons to scumread them in retrospect amounting to a derptunnel. I'm sorry but that's what I conclude. You need to be more open-minded, I know you're better than RC, stop taking this emotionally and re-evaluate.

To me it appears you are performing the same thing as Maid Cafe, that is making a read then bending over backwards to justify it, but there is no scum motivation in what you are doing just a very general misguided towniness to it.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Oh yay!

Titus says to push something and I do.

Then I get called derp tunneling for pushing something and explaining my read as asked and assaults on my skill.

Please tell me to go write “OTM is a good player” then say I am a horrible player for writing it.

I don’t have time for this shit I am going to work.

Let me know when I am allowed to push someone.

It is Kiana talking right now.

I am pointing out the hypocrisy of the slot in general.

Almost to the point of rescinding town block status.

I was going to contest the existence of hypocrisy itself, but,

Is hypocrisy specifically a trait that is scummy? Or is it more likely to be a town trait?

[Bronya Zaychik]

I also don't have much of an opinion on Skybird, and always see fluff cases spring up on them D1(like, every single game), so I haven't actually paid much attention to OTM's actual reasons for being suspicious of Skybird(also partially because it's somewhat related to Iconeum, another slot I don't have much to say about).

-Cerb

I'm kind of glad that we're approaching the same reads naturally, including the lack of opinion on Skybird and to a lesser extent Iconeum

[Bronya Zaychik]

I also don't have much of an opinion on Skybird, and always see fluff cases spring up on them D1(like, every single game), so I haven't actually paid much attention to OTM's actual reasons for being suspicious of Skybird(also partially because it's somewhat related to Iconeum, another slot I don't have much to say about).

-Cerb

Your non defense defense is noted.

And I have defended Skybird D1 in Mass effect when it happened.

And I was right.

Past games that I have not personally been a part of (which means, all meta references except my completed games here, including "Mass Effect") are non-evidence to me and hold no sway.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Spoiler: @RR

RC just lol-dayvigged this exact hydra (me and Titus) in the game next door (Alisae's hydra game) less than 24 hours into the game knowing we were town. Knowing that he is just awful and is not actually trying to antagonize me by purposefully ruining my games makes me feel slightly better. It is also funny.

[Bronya Zaychik]

I also don't have much of an opinion on Skybird, and always see fluff cases spring up on them D1(like, every single game), so I haven't actually paid much attention to OTM's actual reasons for being suspicious of Skybird(also partially because it's somewhat related to Iconeum, another slot I don't have much to say about).

-Cerb

Your non defense defense is noted.

And I have defended Skybird D1 in Mass effect when it happened.

And I was right.

Past games that I have not personally been a part of (which means, all meta references except my completed games here, including "Mass Effect") are non-evidence to me and hold no sway.

Pfft. Do you deny that Skybird always attracts early game wagons? And that statistically, those wagons are usually on town!skybird?

-Cerb

I've never played with Skybird before, I cannot answer these questions. You can tell us your expert witness testimony instead though.

[Bronya Zaychik]

I also don't have much of an opinion on Skybird, and always see fluff cases spring up on them D1(like, every single game), so I haven't actually paid much attention to OTM's actual reasons for being suspicious of Skybird(also partially because it's somewhat related to Iconeum, another slot I don't have much to say about).

-Cerb

Your non defense defense is noted.

And I have defended Skybird D1 in Mass effect when it happened.

And I was right.

Past games that I have not personally been a part of (which means, all meta references except my completed games here, including "Mass Effect") are non-evidence to me and hold no sway.

Then how many times I was wrong should also hold no sway yet you brought that up no problem.

I am just proving that since you were wrong more often than you were right, the fact that you were right just that one time to justify ~whatever point you tried to make~ was moot. It isn't even a good argument. You were trying to argue against me but your argument wasn't sound. It just makes things distracting. Titus would probably have a word with you for that.

[Bronya Zaychik]

i find this more distracting. especially when you're townreading Mark, Kiana.
i still think Skybird is scummy. so far her defenders have not actually interacted with any part of the

case

.

What's distracting about debating theory with Mark?

The case is

boring

! I don't want to interact with it >:(

[Bronya Zaychik]

I have a hunch the team is Sky, Bryona, RR and munna

Need time to type up my Sky case and I am at work but that’s my hunch.

I have a hunch that that particular team would be undetectable on D1. <3

But I look forward to reading a real case and taking it seriously.

-Cerb

This is civ and SU2 redux. :/

*cries*

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

Iconeum doesn't feel like scum as i don't think they would look at the chorus of "Chara is obvtown for its dumb play" and say "but guys, i think you're ignoring all of the objectively scummy things". it's taking too much fire for an unpopular read, even if it does make sense.

players scumreading Iconeum, can you talk about this?

I'm scumreading Iconeum for his lack of vote on T and L earlier.

He laid out two premises

1) Mark v T and L was T v S
2) Mark was lock T

That leaves the conclusion that T and L is scum. T and L had a wagon. Iconeum doesn't vote there.

[Bronya Zaychik]

We should play fun games like.

Cop, Vig, Doc where we give 3 names for each catrgory.

~B

Tried that.

Byrona doesn’t play

For liking puppies and giving me one supposedly they don’t play with them.

I'll play [Titus head]

Cop RR (We know I scared of you)
Doc RR (I can pick same slot right?)
Vig Iconeum T and L or Mark

[Bronya Zaychik]

Oh yay!

Titus says to push something and I do.

Then I get called derp tunneling for pushing something and explaining my read as asked and assaults on my skill.

Please tell me to go write “OTM is a good player” then say I am a horrible player for writing it.

I don’t have time for this shit I am going to work.

Let me know when I am allowed to push someone.

There's a difference between pushing and stopping listening by calling scumteams and ranting and doing preflips etc. :/

It's d1, let's get ppl to work together.

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

pedit: Agreed with Chara. I want OTM to connect with people. The current game state has them standing a bit outside of the consensus' forming, which sucks for everyone because OTM can be really friggin helpful.

Cerb, the game is like fuck, marry, kill, except it's with PR actions. and a way to discuss reads

i'm not sure saying who is obvtown is useful when they're not in danger of being lynched, though.

as for this, yes. Mark's great. not my style at all, but saying they're derptunneling or that they've gone off the deep end just seems unfair when they haven't done anything of the sort.

Ah. Hmm. That makes more sense.

-Cerb

@Titus: I wasn't in Civ. And I was scum in SU2, therefore this can't be it redux. :-/

I would cop Bryona or RR
Doc Chara
Vig holster shot

The whole point is you cannot holster.

[Bronya Zaychik]

I don't have anything further to add, and it appears that Live Chat has ended. Kiana will be logging off. Titus will likely still be here.

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them.

Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read.

Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

This post tries to continue the Beeboy+Me whatever the fuck that was. Attempts to be divisive without too much of a commitment. They aren’t sure yet they are enough to try to bring others into it. Instead of actively asking a sorting question to figure it out they push. Means if Sky is scum Maid Cafe is lock town.

And what if I'm town? Then will you see MC is scum?

Why would MC scum have a mana requiremebt that needs town? Why wouldn't scum just tunnel each other and devolve for distance?

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

Maid Cafe
RR
Dunnatral
Mastina/Yume
Bronya
Skybird
B&M
Chara
Venmar

Hmmm

Why do you forget me?

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

:-p or I am a sleepy jerk

[Bronya Zaychik]

I had you at null before.
I town read Kiana's general engagements and I think the approach you take as scum is to buddy me not hard tin foil me.

~B

Don't feel that I am buddying you. Unless I had a strong scumread I'd do it anyway.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them.

Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read.

Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

This post tries to continue the Beeboy+Me whatever the fuck that was. Attempts to be divisive without too much of a commitment. They aren’t sure yet they are enough to try to bring others into it. Instead of actively asking a sorting question to figure it out they push. Means if Sky is scum Maid Cafe is lock town.

And what if I'm town? Then will you see MC is scum?

Why would MC scum have a mana requiremebt that needs town? Why wouldn't scum just tunnel each other and devolve for distance?

~Titus

Valid point. Not super strong, but worth keeping in mind.

-Cerb

It actually isn’t. It’s hyperbole and appeal to emotion. Furthermore roles were created prerand. So the whole why would MC scum have a mana requirement ... is flawed at its core.

Cmon Cerb and Titus you’re better than this.

Reread and try again.

If MC had the role they described, they could have scum do it in RVS phase.

[Bronya Zaychik]

You guys should just join my super spicy Micc wagon.

~B

My hydra partner has our vote for now. I tend to be worse at D1. That being said, not wholly opposed to Micc wagon.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Micc is a good wagon if Sky doesn’t take off. Case coming late tonight hopefully

Uhh they weren't in your scum pairings? You seem rather unfocused. Can you reboot and return when you can post thoughts on each player succinctly without associations?

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

@OTM, Is a readwall without associative reads too much to ask?

[Bronya Zaychik]

I AM JUST ANNOUNCING THAT I AM TOWN DON'T MIND ME.

OMG IT'S AN ALISAE!

Thank you for coming!

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

If anyone wants to be a dear tho and give me a brief summary of important things I should know then that would be nice :3

I will be a dude for ya late tonight!

ty btw :3

Mark I hate to be that girl but don't we have a social engagement tonight?

[Bronya Zaychik]

yeah it's me, chara, maid cafe, otm, and maybe a50. im accepting further applications

pedit: re creature

Considering maid is tied for largest wagons, this feels more like you throwing out your trs.

@Creature, At some points, yes.

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

Considering maid is tied for largest wagons, this feels more like you throwing out your trs

idk what this means

Maid is tied for largest wagon with three votes thus not a universal TR.

Your "townblock" feels more like you putting your reads in as a block rather than organic play.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Considering maid is tied for largest wagons, this feels more like you throwing out your trs

idk what this means

Maid is tied for largest wagon with three votes thus not a universal TR.

Your "townblock" feels more like you putting your reads in as a block rather than organic play.

Why you has sads? I wants happy people. Happysae is good Alisae.

[Bronya Zaychik]

VOTE: Micc
ok give me your other reads.

Like, is Titus scum?

Under one theory I have yes.

Why are you ignoring my requests for a readwall without associative reads and detailing your thoughts clearly?

I would still like this. It would greatly help me determine your motivations.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Right now (EoP 21) This is where I stand:

1 Chara
2 Creature
3 OnTheMark
4 Taly
5 Bronya Zaychik (Hydra: Titus & Kiana Kaslana)
6 Maid Cafe (Hydra: Maki & Beeboy)
7 Iconeum
-8- Reasonably Rational (Hydra: Cerberus v666 & Drixx)
9 Baku and Munna (Hydra: randomidget & Shiro)
10 Venmar
11 Skybird

Would lynch anyone below the RR slot.

Tibor/Micc/SS/Dunn are unsorted (not enough content) and Shining is a slot I've decided to leave for others to sort.

Why is Iconeum so high?

[Bronya Zaychik]

VOTE: Micc

[Bronya Zaychik]

VOTE: Maid Cafe

[Bronya Zaychik]

VOTE: Micc

Redo.

[Bronya Zaychik]

VOTE: Maid Cafe

[Bronya Zaychik]

Titus & Mathblade not fighting, but rather actually voting together is alarming. Also the first line in 724 is overly alarming at face value, but then I don't think Titus would go this ballsy talking to a scum p in public.

Spoiler: Spoiler Alert

We fight later. We still are. I agree with good ideas not bad ones.

[Bronya Zaychik]

@Maid Cafe Which Creature is yours?

[Bronya Zaychik]

Creatures came out when I assisted. I expected at least one to be Maid. I'm surprised two at once.

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

Creatures came out when I assisted. I expected at least one to be Maid. I'm surprised two at once.

~Titus

The Champion was already in play long before you assisted. Alisae claimed responsibility for the Elemental, because she got it from copying Micc. The only possible creature that would have come from MC is the Mother of Runes, and that card doesn't make ANY sense as being significant enough for them to want to rush to get it into play.

-Cerb

I would. It's the type of card that can protect powerful town abilities.

Do you think that the Elemental and Parrish can share an alignment?

[Bronya Zaychik]

OMG! It's Alisae!! <3

We love Alisaes!!

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

And tell me your read on Dunnstral.

Dafuq??? Dunn had only posted 2 damn letters by that point! How does anyone get a read from a "hi"?? Unless you think him not typing "Hi" or using a fullstop/exclamation is AI!!!

Mark your own words because you're going to get some quality entertainment once you're caught up.

[Bronya Zaychik]

OMG Alisae's new avatar is sooooo kawaiiiii~~~~~~

[Bronya Zaychik]

/dying

[Bronya Zaychik]

<3

Yay for Alisae replacing in!

and for obvtowning a null slot!

[Bronya Zaychik]

I have nothing further to comment though, so I'll be off.

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

VOTE: Micc

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

Like
Most cases are basicly pbpa analyzing a person's ISO.
Because of this, it takes completely out of context what that person is doing,
which makes sense because well, its an ISO. You can't grab context from an ISO.

Also cases make out things which aren't scummy at all, as scummy.
In fact, they try to make it seem like everything the target does, is in fact scummy.

I see this a lot with cases that cover a person's RVS posts on D5 and saying those are alignment indicative.
Like ffs, those posts were made in the RVS phase of the game. If people thought they were AI then it would have been pushed.
Like for example "Oh, this guy's post 5 is a naked vote and that's scummy"
The attempt to suddenly spin those posts around as scummy is disingenuous.

I don't want wall cases. I just want Mark to explain his opinions on slots without referencing other slots.

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

I don't like the Alisae vs mastina. Something feels off. It's not a good look. For Mastina.

Originally townreading mastina but this 1v1 makes me hesitate.

Also, love the Micc case.

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

I'm liking the content from Tibor.

[Bronya Zaychik]

No wonder it sounded off. My bad. Nothing to see here, carry on.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Hmm.

Actually, I just reread your iso.

You've done more than I remembered, Venmar. I think your tendency to mix complete shipposts in with your content may have caused me to disregard you prematurely.

Still don't think you've done anything especially town, but you haven't done as little as I thought you had.
-Cerb

Am townreading Venmar. Not strong enough IC-level but currently more than Shining Dreamers

where does titus stand on me?

Your lack of a townread on me is annoying but I don't think you're scum. There's other people who I want to focus on first as if you are town I have faith I'll get that aha moment and we'll work together well.

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

Spoiler: for my iso

Congratulations on building a paragraph case to townread "hi". Have a cookie!

You don't like cookies?

Interesting indeed.

Kiana you wanna explain to me why you don’t scumread Skybird?

I can't explain the absence of a scumread. Why don't you explain your scumread on Skybird instead?

Actually you can.

An absence of a scumread is either a nullread or a townread start there which is it? And why?

And I will expand once you, not Titus, answers the question.

Man I wish I knew who you were.

I am nulltownreading them. Mainly gut, they aren't very memorable anyhow.

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them.

Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read.

Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

If OTM is town (and that's quite possible) this flips scum all the time and I'll prob want to vote here

Skybird, Creature, RR, Shinding D townread.

Maid Café should respond to 237. I love how she bashes OTM for not responding, yet doesn't answer herself.

Maid scumreading right now. Maybe lyncher - lynchee with OTM. That would be hilarious

Why do you townread Skybird I assume it's for the post above because the other 3 posts are just greetings and considering skybird has prob the worst post in the game I'm interested to see your answer.
~Maki

Interesting.

You push Maid Cafe, even switch your vote to them, despite the fact Iconeum pushed Maid Cafe earlier in an unprovoked way. Usually means Iconeum isn’t scum with Maid Cafe. Furthermore it seems like you’re actively ignoring the currents of the person you are voting why?

When Skybird has had major pushes of your scumread they are unremarkable?

This is to Kiana not Titus.

There's no rule saying that scum can't vote each other!

Yeah right now whatever's being pushed onto Skybird is absolutely not convincing at all.

I have a hunch the team is Sky, Bryona, RR and munna

Need time to type up my Sky case and I am at work but that’s my hunch.

I have a hunch that that particular team would be undetectable on D1. <3

But I look forward to reading a real case and taking it seriously.

-Cerb

Approved.

One thing's for certain, Mathblade has gone off the deep end. Going to take a look at what Titus has to say about all this.

We should play fun games like.

Cop, Vig, Doc where we give 3 names for each catrgory.

~B

Tried that.

Byrona doesn’t play

For liking puppies and giving me one supposedly they don’t play with them.

I don't play, but Titus plays.

bronya's buddying of alisae on page 58 gives me

shudders

pedit: o shit, there it is, the cerb discredit. do you actually believe i have been completely useless? do you even read my posts?

shudders of excitement, perhaps?

Hmm.

Actually, I just reread your iso.

You've done more than I remembered, Venmar. I think your tendency to mix complete shipposts in with your content may have caused me to disregard you prematurely.

Still don't think you've done anything especially town, but you haven't done as little as I thought you had.
-Cerb

Am townreading Venmar. Not strong enough IC-level but currently more than Shining Dreamers

[Bronya Zaychik]

@On The Mark, How's the progress on me getting you to slow down and clarify your thoughts?

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

Any questions for me before I leave? Titus is on, so she can handle general game stuff, but Kiana head is bored.

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

@Mark, Who are you even talking to? I am asking about a readwall from you. You keep telling me later and then doing other engagements in the thread that feel like making busiwork. I'm not talking case everyone. Just like

Adam. Town, His enagement with Brian on page X was really town.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Titus, Mark cased Skybird in 1466. You can take a look at it, I think he wants you to see it.

I don't like it personally but I don't want to garcia.

[Bronya Zaychik]

1564 by titus, 1565 by kiana

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

Like this is the shit that really annoys me about you Titus but it’s worse when you’re scum.

I do as you ask then you either attack my skill/play for doing as you ask or you never evaluate the original ask.

So how about you tell me if you like my case on Skybird that has no associatives?

You haven't. That's why I am hounding you trying to get you to focus.

I'm frankly not enthused by anything you have said on Skybird. Could they be scum? Yes. However, we are much likely to work with you on scumreads. I think Skybird sounds really genuine. I'm a little miffed you randomly left Iconeum when they haven't posted since their wagon.

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

Your lack of a townread on me is annoying but I don't think you're scum. There's other people who I want to focus on first as if you are town I have faith I'll get that aha moment and we'll work together well.

~Titus

why is it annoying? neither head has really done anything too townie. if you're town i'll sort you as such later.

any comment on your #1315 and #1318, where it definitely feels like you're actually leaning on a scumread on me?

More keeping an eye on. Putting your reads as the consensus is what you and I did in Civ and we were mostly right. I think it was just too early for that yet. Townblocks happen a bit more organically but they can still be observed. Think more gun to my head town but don't do anything crazy is my read.

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

@Mark, Who are you even talking to? I am asking about a readwall from you. You keep telling me later and then doing other engagements in the thread that feel like making busiwork. I'm not talking case everyone. Just like

Adam. Town, His enagement with Brian on page X was really town.

Oh now you moved the goal posts to everyone? Wow

And the Adam’s engagement with Brian on page X is an associative.

So like I still don’t know what you want?

I think the goal post was always at everyone. Maybe Titus just said she wanted thoughts without associatives, and didn't specify on everyone. *shrug* and I also think she's talking more about stuff like x+y are scum together, not this interaction x had with y makes me think they're town because it appears to be genuine scumhunting.

-Cerb

I've said readwall multiple times. Otherwise, yes. I even gave an example earlier this morning of what I want.

Mark has left several theories dangling, T and L, Inconeum, Random scum team call, me being scum under an unnamed theory. I want him to stop, sit back and think.

[Bronya Zaychik]

I also don't think Titus asked you for a case. I did...

-Cerb

I asked for focusing not a case.

[Bronya Zaychik]

@OnTheMark, The burden is on me if I care to persuade you. At the moment, I don't. I like two wagons for my VCA for later. I am looking to establish your thought process in a clear, concise manner. I'm not even controlling our vote today. This is more about communication.

The first step in communicating with anyone is to find out their desires and resistances.

As for 1572, I was talking to Venmar not you there.


~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

@Mark, Who are you even talking to? I am asking about a readwall from you. You keep telling me later and then doing other engagements in the thread that feel like making busiwork. I'm not talking case everyone. Just like

Adam. Town, His enagement with Brian on page X was really town.

Oh now you moved the goal posts to everyone? Wow

And the Adam’s engagement with Brian on page X is an associative.

So like I still don’t know what you want?

I think the goal post was always at everyone. Maybe Titus just said she wanted thoughts without associatives, and didn't specify on everyone. *shrug* and I also think she's talking more about stuff like x+y are scum together, not this interaction x had with y makes me think they're town because it appears to be genuine scumhunting.

-Cerb

I've said readwall multiple times. Otherwise, yes. I even gave an example earlier this morning of what I want.

Mark has left several theories dangling, T and L, Inconeum, Random scum team call, me being scum under an unnamed theory. I want him to stop, sit back and think.

I am sitting back and thinking.

I am not just bound to one theory. There’s 17 players

Bound to one theory leads to tunnel Mark

Then you can write out the conflict. Ping pong is hard as fuck to follow.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Ok, well I'm not neighborizing someone (assuming I had the power) who won't follow basic requests and is clearly dodging all attempts at being helped to communicate better.

Good luck spamming the thread and being ignored because no one can understand you. I'm beginning to think you want it that way and are hiding behind drama. When town inevitably gets sick of you, they'll lynch you and you'll wonder why.

[Bronya Zaychik]

How did you get to Iconeum town? In 3 sentences or less please.

[Bronya Zaychik]

@Mark,

Kiana townreads your frustration. I think it's self aggrandizing frustration so you don't have to put in the work to clarify your thoughts so either a) you can blame others for not listening or b) you can hide behind your obtuseness as scum. You do this repeatedly on MS game after game and wonder why no one listens. You don't take the time to listen to each person's goal in the thread and think more words solves the problem.

I would have given up on you ages ago but Kiana really thinks you're town. (I think this is the Chara question you want answered.)

I still have not seen you attempt a readwall like I requested.

You want me to engage your Skybird thoughts but all your theories are gibberish because they are not concise. My request is my ability to try and engage you.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Venmar, who do you read as scum in this game?
Other then voting yourself 'for mana gain', you are voting Tibor because the slot went against purposefully lynching townie D1 as a general strategy... Of all things Tibor hydra posted, that's like the one thing I really liked about him.

Because of how Iconeum questions Venmar. It's notably different than how Sky is doing it, and doesn't seem to be out of a "I want you to explain your mana situation" versus a "Hey your reads kinda seem shitty to me, talk about them with me" way.

This is betterish. It shows that you scumread more mechanically minded posting over mental suggestions.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Furthermore, by definition, a read wall is NOT concise.

A read wall by definition, is a list of all your thoughts on all players.
It requires mountains of data. None of which is "concise". If you want all of my reasons why I townread or scumread someone that's necessarily a shit ton of work and citing of posts and of PBPA's that most people in thread said they ignore. So are you asking for a read wall or a reads list? And if you want a reads list, that is fundamentally not what you want either as you've said you want to know all of my theories. Which means that in certain situations a player is scum or they are town. Show me an example of what you want.

I don't want PBPAs. I don't want every piece of data that says why you feel like you do. You are deliberately being obtuse.

I want you to give an initial conclusion with 2-3 sentences that details why you feel that way. An impression.

For instance,

RR is likely town due to the sheer effort he spends mediating his townreads but he was op as scum in SU2 so I have reservations.

^^^ That's what I want for each slot. You'll hit on all impirtant theories that way without a PbPA. I had given you this example before.

As for the Chara question, I feel your Iconeum thoughts do not hold up.

[Bronya Zaychik]

Titus called for SoS. Mark you are doing an extraordinary thing by making Titus frustrated, this is really unusual I think you need to take a step back for a moment.

I understand that you are trying your best to work with her but it just comes across to me that you just aren't understanding what is needed of you.

Titus is absolutely correct the PbPA against Skybird making for an extremely unconvincing case, you simply paint every action of Skybird's ISO as scummy even though most, if not all, of the evidence presented is NAI. Take a look at Alisae's case for tips on what is expected of you.

I see the exact same patterns in what you're doing as what RC would do to ruin games and become scum MVP. Fortunately you don't even have half the toxicity that he has, but the aspect of stubbornness is still there and I need to nip this in the bud early before it becomes a big problem for town. One major problem is the rush to find associatives which I believe is really dumb on Day 1 because it results in absurd conclusions that effectively amount of "______ who defends Skybird is scum." where the name of the person in the blank keeps changing which is obviously wrong. You have begun to call RR and me scum for defending Skybird or not agreeing with your push which is frankly absurd and ridiculous, please take a moment to breathe and realize how far you are derp in the tunnel.

Titus wants you to take a step back and listen. You are almost going to the point of rambling and it is not something that the so-called court of public opinion will likely hold in your favour, they will be turned off. Again as Titus warned you do not want this to happen.

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

So for this we have four potential premises (include 3rd party in with "town" for now)
Option A: Skybird is scum and Venmar is scum.
Option B: Skybird is scum and Venmar is town.
Option C: Skybird is town and Venmar is scum.
Option D: Skybird is town and Venmar is town.

There is an option E of having some sort of crazy as fuck multiball thing, but the main goal of this is to work off what is most likely. Scum ask what if.
The goal of this is to get to the most likely response, so Option E is discarded if/until such a time said option exists. Afterwards, the same will be done for Iconeum and I believe that the most likely option is Skybird scum, Venmar town, Iconeum town. So that's the stated goal. If someone attacks these given points and finds a flaw, then either that flaw must be addressed or the conclusion discarded.

This is useless. Obviously these 5 possible cases apply to every single player on this list. You are too distracted on Skybird by making it such a main focus of your push that you don't even realize that the things you criticize them for are absolutely normal and not out of the ordinary. It is obvious that you are barking up the wrong tree right now and I want you to put down your pride and abandon this push. You can revisit it in later days if you must, but right now it is clear you are an at impasse and the conclusions or arguments you are going to put forth might not even be right in the first place, much less the second step of convincing anyone.

There are more scum than Skybird. Can you try finding others?

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

Now take a look at the case on 1466 in which I present that Skybird is scum. Without any counter evidence to the point, the more likely option is that Skybird is scum, and as such will delve into those points first.

In addition, we add the general premise (Premise B), that scum are in a much better position when they know what town can do. A point granted by Cerb in this thread.
I also wish to add an additional premise (Premise C), that should be straightforward, that scum generally want to empower/make their buddies look favorable without town catching on.

In 381 Skybird is supposed to be bugged by Venmar's posting and asks why Venmar thinks he has to have an ability to be useful. This directly goes against Premise C. Furthermore in 513 Skybird drops a quick one liner against Venmar and it looks like a classic chainsaw. This further violates Premise C when Skybird has not even talked about a majority of the game. Furthermore, Venmar's evil laugh gif (obviously a joke) reminds me of an MU user and I don't anticipate if someone was legit scum with a partner they would call attention to Skybird's case and brush it off at the same time with a meme.

Therefore, I posit that IF Skybird is scum, the most likely conclusion is that Venmar is town.

Now we take a look at the "if Skybird is town" options, assume my earlier case is flawed, and see if we can determine Venmar's likely alignment that way.

1466 isn't a case it's just a PbPA. It's just stating facts or translations not analysis. You aren't making any cases at the courtroom, you're just the detective finding evidence and then giving it to the lawyer. The lawyer in you has not yet arrived.

Because of this, 1585's premise is gone. The lack of a valid premise for 1585 makes it an unsound argument. Because your premises fall, everything you build around that so-called case falls. There is no case in the first place only a discovery of evidence. You aren't using that evidence to make anything meaningful, much less convincing.

Again take a look at Alisae's case to see what is expected of you.

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

I don't think a readwall is hard it's just time consuming. But I think it would be much more productive if you put that time to making a readwall for Titus instead of a haphazard Skybird push, it takes the same amount of time but one has more benefits than the other.

Code: Select all

(PlayerName): I think (PlayerName) is Town/Scum/Null. This is because (Reason A)... and this can be seen from (Evidence A). (Reason A) is alignment indicative of Town/Scum because (Town/Scum Agenda A) Also, (Reason B), which can be seen from (Evidence B). This makes (PlayerName) even more likely to be Town/Scum because (Town/Scum Agenda B).

Rinse and repeat for all 17 players in the game and you got yourself a readwall. Probably would take less time than arguing to Titus about Skybird. But will make you so much more of an asset to town.

~Kiana

[Bronya Zaychik]

Calling me a crybaby is an insult Mark.

I can't understand your points on Skybird. So I can't engage them. You can either do what I asked and make it followable or be ignored. I can't magically understand nonsense.

Now you're threatening to kill us over a simple request to give two-three sentences over each player. :/

[Bronya Zaychik]

I don't think a readwall is hard it's just time consuming. But I think it would be much more productive if you put that time to making a readwall for Titus instead of a haphazard Skybird push, it takes the same amount of time but one has more benefits than the other.

Code: Select all

(PlayerName): I think (PlayerName) is Town/Scum/Null. This is because (Reason A)... and this can be seen from (Evidence A). (Reason A) is alignment indicative of Town/Scum because (Town/Scum Agenda A) Also, (Reason B), which can be seen from (Evidence B). This makes (PlayerName) even more likely to be Town/Scum because (Town/Scum Agenda B).

Rinse and repeat for all 17 players in the game and you got yourself a readwall. Probably would take less time than arguing to Titus about Skybird. But will make you so much more of an asset to town.

~Kiana

The above picture is what I do IN MY HEAD. I can't just put it into a sound byte for you or Titus. That's not how I function. I will redo my case in Alisae format because that's something I CAN do.

But until flips emerge figuring out WHICH world it is is nigh on impossible. Sky is scum in almost all of them and I see no town motivation for any of her posts. Until someone counters what I've argued I see no reason to change my mind. And just because I don't change my mind because Titus asks doesn't mean I'm not listening.

I'm not asking you to change your mind. I'm asking you to clarify your points so I can determine if I want you to do that or not.

What you have there is a collection of what I presume are post numbers and relationships. If you step back and filter you can get further. I respect your ability to think rapidly but no one understands your PbPA and your refusal to clarify is really anti-town at best. No one csn follow points that require 7 pages at once.

If you refuse to clarify, then you should just realize that you'll be tuned out and we can agree that no one will listen to you. Can't say I never tried.

[Bronya Zaychik]

One thing OTM.

I agree with the parts of your post which I specifically questioned Skybird on. Nothing else. Those parts are the parts which I view as being an actual case.

Bronya: Look at the specific points that I asked Skybird about in their case. Tell me if you see the same absence of conviction behind their hunting in those instances that I do, as evidenced by their lack of follow up or consistency.

-Cerb

Rephrase what they say?

[Bronya Zaychik]

I'd file away 381 but that's nothing AI yet. Poking and prodding others is a valid tool. The thread moves too fast for much followup.

Mark complaining about lack of follow through just shows hyprocrisy.

It's D1. Everyone is poke and observe.

[Bronya Zaychik]

My argument is that there's too much stuff for anyone to follow up on. That's why we vote and wagon as a group. I can't follow up on every logical inconsistency. It's impossible.

Second, everyone has logical inconsistencies. Yes, even me. The logical inconsistencies betray information about role and alignment.

So I am not understanding anything here.

[Bronya Zaychik]

My argument is that there's too much stuff for anyone to follow up on. That's why we vote and wagon as a group. I can't follow up on every logical inconsistency. It's impossible.

Second, everyone has logical inconsistencies. Yes, even me. The logical inconsistencies betray information about role and alignment.

So I am not understanding anything here.

Okay, sure. But shouldn't we expect people to follow up on the things they themselves brought up? I can accept people missing things, but not them noticing something, then inexplicably deciding it's no longer worth noticing.

-Cerb

Noticing without commenting is a great way to catch scum. Pressuring puts players on defensive. I am bad about this but any question or comment early should serve only to gather info for others. People reveal more when not defensive.

~Titus

[Bronya Zaychik]

The idea that because MC's mana generation method seems complicated is not based on anything MC is doing in thread, but is more towards not understanding how the mana claim works so she can manipulate it. She doesn't actually say anything towards with Beeboy is doing is scummy. Wanting to give an open ended question like that also makes other people more likely to talk about their mana claims and abilities as well. I'm kinda proud of some people for not going "Yeah, I think that's right because I generate mana simply or That sucks because mine requires climbing up Mount Everest three times then walking through the pits of hell". Skybird is also showing uncertainty about Chara’s sarcasm and deciding to assume meaning reread instead of seeking clarification.

Nothing about this is AI. Skybird might be inarticulate at expressing confusion and be anti-town in doing so. Yet, people didn't. If Skybird was legit rolefishing, she follows up there. Yet, nothing. Skybird's inattention is due to thread pace not alignment, even if you are right.

If you think Skybird might be scum avoiding stances, just pressure her to take them by asking for concise reads.