VARSOON VARIETY HOUR : GAME SCRAPPED

[Shining Dreamers]

Here I am.

- Y

[Shining Dreamers]

I wanted to be scum because I'm stronger as scum. Why y no give me scum?

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

that's Yume.

I am Phosphophyllite.....my signature says so.....

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

oh bee obv towned for me already god bless

Sorry, but no. (Consider this also a response to bee's content prior to this. All of it.)

Btw as indicated--I can push this stronger if need be, I am recording stuff in a PT the mod provided, but I'll be trying to keep my posting to a minimum in this thread. So I'm only responding to the most important of things publicly.

This qualifies.

[Shining Dreamers]

i'm a miller. i'll investigate as The End.

You're the me this game!
...Except you'll actually be nightkilled rather than be taken to 3p lylo.
(That being said, I anticipate being dead before lylo this game, not by lynch.)

Mastina when I ain’t out with my bros we need to legit talk.

If the talk is about a bee scumread, I am all down for it. bee's not my only scumread and isn't my strongest scumread, but I'll only be sharing the final readslist I have when caught up. (The others you'll just have to wait until postgame to read the PT to see.)

[Shining Dreamers]

Hi town. How you doing?

So they're gonna find out when I post my final readslist anyway, but Reasonably Rational is in my scum list already. (I'M SORRY.)

This has many caveats to it--I am giving you my word that unless something of absolute dire consequence comes up or Yume specifically asks me to (if Yume wants to push them, then I will of course help her out <3), I'm not going to actually push that before D3 at the absolute earliest (with even D3 probably being too soon). The scumread is not rock-solid; it is barely above average in strength. It is subject to change and I consider Reasonably Rational to be a self-sorting slot akin to Creature.

They just take much, much, much longer to get to that stage. I know damn good and well not to trust a scumread like this so early on, that it very well can (and probably will) reverse. And while I do expect to die during the night, I don't expect it to be immediately, so I can afford to wait on this. To put it another way--I won't lie and say I townread them, but I will still work with them actively as possible and come to my own conclusions later on. Though the read is technically scum, I am going to treat them as if town and give them that reads pass more or less for about (preferably slightly over) half the game.

(You CAN read them correctly before then...it's just that it's much, much harder and both Drixx and I at the very least don't want the grief of me trying regardless of his alignment. It gets UGLY when I am vocal about scumreading him. I mean it's ugly for me to scumread him REGARDLESS since me being subtle about it doesn't do much to lessen how shitty it is...but however bad scumreading him in the background might be, doing so in the foreground is ten times worse.)

SO WITH THAT SAID.

You can go ahead and trust them...
...But don't trust them to be town fully until they have the resume actually supporting it.

They absolutely don't have that yet. I honestly don't think it's possible for them to have it before D2 because before D2 there's no definitive information to tell you what is and is not town. Only assumptions. And given that Reasonably Rational is just about the most powertown hydra in existence regardless of whether they are town or scum...on D1, assumptions will always point those not more in the know to them being town.

tl;dr version: Please don't be mad at me, Drixx. I'm giving you a LOT of leeway here. A LOT. I just can't afford to give you unlimited sway because Cerb's play has been such where you aren't in the zone where I can. My read is what my read is and right now that read is not a positive one, so I advise others to take caution in having one prematurely.

[Shining Dreamers]

I am going to claim something I prolly should have approached subtly but it heavily helps the town to target us with actions that grants our slots abilities/items/whatever you wanna call it. When we gain an ability as a result of another player/Creature's spell or ability (which is all actions) we will "power up", well not exactly but I don't really want to claim that part. But essentially just give us free stuff since it's more cost effective then giving other players stuff in a pretty meaningful way.
~B

I am fairly certain this is a >random scum ability.

Not just from a game design perspective, but from a Varsoon game design perspective.

It's the kind which

could

come from town, admittedly, yes. But it is still far >random odds of being a scum ability.

Claiming it openly does nothing to lessen that.

[Shining Dreamers]

The reason I say that is people will make assumptions based on their role PMs. This is a Varsoon game. That means heads out of mechanics and eyes on the prize lynching scum.

How do you say this stuff and town read mastina for having a role.
~B

How do you say this stuff and yet post post 88?

[Shining Dreamers]

If that is truly her role why would she holster the info.

I state what I deem I need to--nothing more. Revealing the information I saw as giving no benefit with potential harm; holstering the information I saw as doing no harm but being potentially helpful.

How do you know the claim in question is "factual"?
~B

Well given V's interpretation of my role is different from what mine was when I claimed...it wasn't.

Buuuuuuuuuuut, aside from that technicality: the claim in question is factual because scumastina doesn't make (deliberately) non-factual claims. (And for that matter is less likely to accidentally make a non-factual claim.) You have played with me often enough to be well aware of this. I've no interest in rambling on my mafia philosophy on why I hold this stance, but there's no need to; there are multiple individuals in this game who can vouch for it, and you SHOULD be among them.

Seconded. They're making a true statement, which is not indicative of their alignment.
-Cerb

No prizes for what I think of your content thusfar.

[Shining Dreamers]

80% sure OMW is scum btw.
~B

What a coincidence! That's about how sure I am your slot's scum.

[Shining Dreamers]

Your argument so far is I don’t like Mark’s playstyle. Which scum generally don’t. Especially on MU.

Oh my god how the hell did it take me this long to recognize you.

[Shining Dreamers]

Mark looking busy

If my identity guess for OnTheMark is, indeed,

accurate

, then this is not alignment indicative; he would be doing "busywork" this early in the game regardless of his alignment.

He happens to be my second-strongest townread, a position I doubt he'll leave, but that is for other reasons.

That having been said, if I do indeed know his identity, I also know better than to assume I can read him.

[Shining Dreamers]

like this isn't AI. maybe it is but i wouldn't know how to look at it. i hate reading it, not because it's noise (i really don't care about noise), but because i can see what both of you are trying to say. but there's no clear communication, just a series of misinterpretations. that's why it's taking pages and pages to explain simple things on, now, both fronts.

I am of the opinion this is deliberate on the part of bee.

[Shining Dreamers]

Chara
OnTheMark (CAVEAT: if I know his identity this is a much weaker townread because my ability to read him is shit and in actuality bee's raised points mirror many of my own concerns)
Iconeum
Bronya Zaychik
Tibor and Lumia

Baku and Munna

Dunnstral
SnarkySnowman
Almost50

Venmar


Micc
Taly


Reasonably Rational (CAVEAT: IS EFFECTIVELY LYNCH-IMMUNE BEFORE D3)
Maid Cafe
Skybird


(ABSENT: Creature deliberately removed.)

Final readslist.

[Shining Dreamers]

(Or RATHER: bee's raised points, IF I AM CORRECT ABOUT ONTHEMARK'S IDENTITY, mirror my own concerns. Not enough where I'd reverse the townread if right on his identity, but enough where I'd be greatly hesitant. Benefit of the doubt does apply though; I am willing to wager he has in fact changed his style. It's just something which...is a little concerning.
All this goes out the window if I'm incorrect on his identity; he'd just be town then, outright.)

[Shining Dreamers]

Also I am curious about Creature being intentionally omitted. Why?

He's self-sorting, but not quite yet.

About one week is the timeframe I'd use. He can give false positives to looking like his scumgame in a few real-life days but by a week his townness shines through; he can falsely pass as town given a few real-life days but he can't keep it up and by a week he tends to reveal his scum colors.

No amount of coaching in the world can salvage that. No change, no effort, nothing. A week might not be a perfect timeframe reference (sure, it's possible for it to be much, much shorter, and it is in some rare instances possible to take longer), but it's a fair estimation of approximately how long it'll take to sort him. He'll be either an innocent child or confscum when I do sort him, but there's no need to try at the moment.

[Shining Dreamers]

@mastina — Iconeum no posts. How do you read that slot as town?

Ssh, I'm trying to hide that the slot is my masonbuddy.

[Shining Dreamers]

It's......

not mine.....

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

VOTE: Maid Cafe

[Shining Dreamers]

I don't like how they talked to OTM. Feels like they were trying to reel him in.

[Shining Dreamers]

I felt this way about another person once, and I was right, so there is 90% chance I am right this time as well.

[Shining Dreamers]

So come at me bro.

[Shining Dreamers]

Actually, it was me, and yet it wasn't.



The statement before this one is true.

The statement before THIS one is false.

So tell me, is it me, or is it not?

[Shining Dreamers]

You're correct. You win a puppy.

[Shining Dreamers]

Fun fact: because of a CERTAIN song being played at work, I've had this stuck in my head all day:

BUT ANYWAY.

Shhhhh tell me your thoughts on Tibor. Maybe scum won’t notice

Tibor and Lumia

(There's reasons behind this, but those are in the PT for now.)

Is this your hydra's list or just yours Mastina?

One of the things which makes me a bad hydra partner is that any time I synchronize a readslist it is an exception to the ongoing rule of me not doing so. It's just...not something I do easily. For me to synch a readslist I need to post my readslist, my partner needs to post theirs, and then I need to put the time in to cross-reference it. I'm too impatient to do that, especially given the uncertainty of those factors coming to be, soooooooooo. I tend not to bother.

To my understanding, I have a

very inconsistent

way of acquiring mana. But primarily, two ways:

1)

Not using my Planeswalker ability

2)

I target someone with my Planeswalker ability. For 2 phases, I gain Mana the same way they would, and I gain their abilities. I can only do this once per dayphase.
I'm literally a temporary copy-cat.

You know how Taly was pretty low on my readslist before?

Yeah well good reason for that.

Would vote.

[Shining Dreamers]

How do we even have claims?? GAME HASN'T STARTED YET

You gonna comment on anyone’s reads or alignment?

TECHNICALLY, there is some.

Skybird, Creature, RR, Shinding D townread. Maid Café should respond to 237. I love how she bashes OTM for not responding, yet doesn't answer herself. Maid scumreading right now. Maybe lyncher - lynchee with OTM. That would be hilarious

...But if you expect me to defend Iconeum, I'm not going to because frankly I agree with the idea behind your post; I would MUCH prefer Iconeum be producing far more than this not-really-counting-as-content content.

mastina i'm not asking because i know exactly what her answer will be.

Honestly Chara, I'm going to level with you.
You could try your absolute hardest to be the most obvscum of obvscum, but as long as your role PM is actually a town one, you're still going to end up as Innocent Child levels of town.

maid cafe is town because im mirror telling them regarding their points on onthemark and because i think their questioning of mark in general was a productive exercise of scumhunting

While I find the meta point on OnTheMark to be a valid concern, literally everything else about Maid Cafe in that entire conversation is trash, and absolutely wasn't a productive exercise in scumhunting; the questions were obtuse in a way I wouldn't consider town. The entire time, I was siding with primarily Chara/OnTheMark.

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them. Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read. Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

If OTM is town (and that's quite possible) this flips scum all the time and I'll prob want to vote here

No argument from me actually. I realize that my scumreads mostly don't work; they are probably shit. Both you and Skybird aren't likely to be teamed together in spite of me scumreading you individually.

[Shining Dreamers]

VOTE: Taly
I think this is a good place to start. I don't know how you get a role like the one he claimed and don't immediately think "hey I can use this to confirm other people's abilities when they claim them" as town. Like sure everyone's probably got access to reasonably powerful ability, but waiting for someone to get run up to L-1 and claim and then copying their ability to compare it to the claim seems like good value.

For the record I disagree with any theory argument that leads to claims from players not on L-1. Props to Chara for expressing importance of not being stupid.

For the record, know how Micc was near Taly?

I won't lie and say Micc's like supertown but he is indeed a townlean so is further up from Taly now.

Tibor Taly Micc Skybird potential team?

Half of these I'd back right now btw.

[Shining Dreamers]

Oh.
Meant to.
For clarity--powertown is something I consider to be "greater than protown" in this context.
But I did in fact mean powertown.
As in, something beyond protown, into powertown territory.

[Shining Dreamers]

Heigh ho.

[Shining Dreamers]

Spoiler: me

[Shining Dreamers]

Spoiler: me

Who are you, and are you trying to beleaguer the glorious Chara avatar?

~kiana

[Shining Dreamers]

Spoiler: me

Who are you, and are you trying to beleaguer the glorious Chara avatar?

~kiana

Be warned heretic, that if you make any attempt at blaspheming the holy Chara or her avatar, you will be in for a lot of pain.

T'is not my fault if I like Phosphophyllite.

[Shining Dreamers]

Anyway, I got told to act like me, so this is what you get.

[Shining Dreamers]

Chekhov's gun.

[Shining Dreamers]

I wanted to be scum because I'm stronger as scum. Why y no give me scum?

- Phosphophyllite

I don't get this, some of your recent best have been town games
Unless this is the wrong head then nvm
~Lumia

Phos is Yume.
Yume is an amazingly strong scum player.
I think the more she hydras with Mastina the better town player she becomes.
Like if the strength of a Mastina/Yume hybrid manifested itself it'd have the right to brag about it's torn muscle shirt from all the strength.

Why else did you think I offered?
- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

I wanted to be scum because I'm stronger as scum. Why y no give me scum?

- Phosphophyllite

I don't get this, some of your recent best have been town games
Unless this is the wrong head then nvm
~Lumia

Phos is Yume.
Yume is an amazingly strong scum player.
I think the more she hydras with Mastina the better town player she becomes.
Like if the strength of a Mastina/Yume hybrid manifested itself it'd have the right to brag about it's torn muscle shirt from all the strength.

Why else did you think I offered?
- Phosphophyllite

I don't know. But that would be irrelevant as it's pregame.

Do you share Mastina's view RR is scum? I would love to hear your opinions more.

I'm probably gonna poke manna if the Skybird thing doesn't work with my block so far or if I don't like the current.

Don't know. I do however, share her view that MC is scummy. Then agains, considering that RR being scum multiple times in a row is a thing, I would consider it possible that the same thing happened again.

All that aside, I am not the best of player on the first two days or so, and I was hoping she could help me change that.

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

I wanted to be scum because I'm stronger as scum. Why y no give me scum?

- Phosphophyllite

I don't get this, some of your recent best have been town games
Unless this is the wrong head then nvm
~Lumia

Phos is Yume.
Yume is an amazingly strong scum player.
I think the more she hydras with Mastina the better town player she becomes.
Like if the strength of a Mastina/Yume hybrid manifested itself it'd have the right to brag about it's torn muscle shirt from all the strength.

Why else did you think I offered?
- Phosphophyllite

I don't know. But that would be irrelevant as it's pregame.

Do you share Mastina's view RR is scum? I would love to hear your opinions more.

I'm probably gonna poke manna if the Skybird thing doesn't work with my block so far or if I don't like the current.

Don't know. I do however, share her view that MC is scummy. Then agains, considering that RR being scum multiple times in a row is a thing, I would consider it possible that the same thing happened again.

All that aside, I am not the best of player on the first two days or so, and I was hoping she could help me change that.

- Phosphophyllite

MC who is MC?

And I was hoping we’d talk some. If not on RR somewhere else. The best way to get better is by doing.

MC is Maid Cafe.

[Shining Dreamers]

As for RR, the patented Phosphophyllite test is that unless they bring actual read to the main thread, you hang them and you look happy doing it. Not into any PTs alone. Into the main thread. You cannot fail in this way.

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

As for RR, the patented Phosphophyllite test is that unless they bring actual read to the main thread, you hang them and you look happy doing it. Not into any PTs alone. Into the main thread. You cannot fail in this way.

- Phosphophyllite

+1 sub

?

[Shining Dreamers]

That's not really how I expect someone who town reads another to disregard what they are saying. The Titus/Kiana question was more an after thought but I was mainly trying to get a feel for Cerb. (And yes I'm calling the slot Cerb until Drixx pops in. Deal.)

i would argue that scum RR pays

more

attention to how they answer questions, not less.

They did pay attention. The reaction was IDGAF. I wasn't saying they're not paying attention. It's that they are blatantly contradicting themselves. And I don't know where Cerb

actually

stands on mechanical issues or his reads. I want that to stop.

Also, you could actually ask me questions directly if you want to know where I stand on something. I think it's pretty clear where I stand on everything, and you're misreading a number of things I've said, either intentionally or due to some sort of bias, but I can certainly clarify stuff if you want to ask.

-Cerb

Do you value mechanics play or regular play?

Do you support the everyone vote for themselves plan?

Who are your top town and scumreads?

Let’s start there.

Define "regular" play. If you want to know how I play(which you should already know, and which should tell you what I value, but I'll gladly reiterate it to everyone): I enjoy mechanically breaking games and doing everything in my power to do the objectively optimal play in all situations, again, mechanically speaking. I attempt to create auto-win situations for myself, as either alignment. As far as reads go, I only value those parts of reads which can be documented, where you can lay out a logical set of reasons why x is why, based on actions taken.

As for RR, the patented Phosphophyllite test is that unless they bring actual read to the main thread, you hang them and you look happy doing it. Not into any PTs alone. Into the main thread. You cannot fail in this way.

- Phosphophyllite

You're still my favorite Yume. <3 I don't actually think I've ever been secretive about a read in a PT and not expressed it in the main thread as well, eventually. There have been times where I've told one party I suspect someone while not acting like I suspect them in the main thread, in order to further a gambit(generally Drixx generated) of some sort, or vice versa, but the truth always comes out afterwards, regardless of alignment. I can appreciate your sentiment though.

^^ Also, I wrote up my response to your post in our hydra PT, but since nobody seems to care about your case or agree with you(so far), I won't bother posting it! <3

i'll actually be the devils advocate here cause im curious in your response. right now you're just smugly dismissing and discrediting the case.

That's because it's easy to dismiss, and OTM didn't ask for my response, only for that of those who TR me.

Anyways, that's 1!

-Cerb

ILU too.

- Phosphophyllite

P.S: If you're scum, please tell your buddies not to kill us. I am still sad that I wasn't able to enjoy SU2 fully.

[Shining Dreamers]

@MC Can you answer this for me?

Skybird, what's your position on OTM?

-Cerb

To me, there was something weird about their 1v1 with MC in the beginning which is what made me think one of them might be scum. But if one of them is, my vote is on MC. MC was stating earlier that he needs someone with no votes to vote them so they could get mana. (Post 566) That has been the case for them with Shining Dreamers since the first vote count. So why have they not voted SD and "gained" some mana?

Bottom line, not really interested in voting OTM at the moment. Still not sure if OTM is town but leaning more in that direction.

VOTE: Maid Cafe

[Shining Dreamers]

@MC Can you answer this for me?

Skybird, what's your position on OTM?

-Cerb

To me, there was something weird about their 1v1 with MC in the beginning which is what made me think one of them might be scum. But if one of them is, my vote is on MC. MC was stating earlier that he needs someone with no votes to vote them so they could get mana. (Post 566) That has been the case for them with Shining Dreamers since the first vote count. So why have they not voted SD and "gained" some mana?

Bottom line, not really interested in voting OTM at the moment. Still not sure if OTM is town but leaning more in that direction.

VOTE: Maid Cafe

for the new page

[Shining Dreamers]

So what exactly happened here?

[Shining Dreamers]

So what exactly happened here?

Anyone can answer this?

[Shining Dreamers]

OMG IT'S A NEBBY!

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

mastina you can say goodbye to your mana btw.

Why u do this to me, though? x_x

-Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

I am the one in charge, as per her opening words, and you never scumread me on day 1 when you are town.

VOTE: Alisae

Regainin'

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

And since we're the same, you're scumreading me as well, and you never do that on d1 as town.

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

And since we're the same, you're scumreading me as well, and you never do that on d1 as town.

- Phosphophyllite

Yume I need an answer to 1459 before we can really talk.
I do scumread some of your posts but the root of the scumread is mastina, and it is because of mastina I am scumreading your posts.

Something tells me your 'scumread' was predetermined and you found some posts that could be used as 'evidence' to get rid of the player most likely to catch you. She has her analysis and I know how some people think, including yourself.

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

Another reason why I think you are scum is because of SU2, one of the previous games ran by the same mod. There, players were punished by scum for claiming flavor, something which I experienced first-hand. Here the same thing applies: scum punish players by taking away their mana.

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

Third is my motto: trust no one, doubt everyone. I used to tr people I like and I got burned for it twice. So that's when I developed this motto. You have Eyeball to thank for this. Just ask her, she is in this game too.

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

Another reason why I think you are scum is because of SU2, one of the previous games ran by the same mod. There, players were punished by scum for claiming flavor, something which I experienced first-hand. Here the same thing applies: scum punish players by taking away their mana.

- Phosphophyllite

Except you haven’t claimed flavor?

Same principle, different circumstances. Besides, we might as well have.

[Shining Dreamers]

Read SU2 flips. She had Eyeball flavor.

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

I'll see about getting caught up tomorrow, but this can't wait.

We had all of our mana stolen.

This is definitely a scum ability, given that I'm PRETTY sure that we're a fairly universal townread, soooooo.

[Shining Dreamers]

Actually, she though Mark was someone else, so your point is invalid.

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

Why would I ask Skyball about mastina?

I said you should ask her why I trust no one.....

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

Actually, she though Mark was someone else, so your point is invalid.

- Phosphophyllite

OKAY THEN ANSWER MY QUESTION WHO DID SHE THINK SHE WAS.
Like I'll concede on the point sure I just want a fucking answer is that so much to ask for?

mhsmith0.

[Shining Dreamers]

I don't like the Alisae vs mastina. Something feels off. It's not a good look. For Mastina.

Originally townreading mastina but this 1v1 makes me hesitate.

Also, love the Micc case.

~Kiana

Interesting, considering it was me who fought with him....why are you scumreading my partner when I am the one posting most of the time?

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

Btw for the purposes of full disclosure--Yume did in fact inform me that Alisae was in the game and replaced Taly, though she didn't tell me anything except that Alisae was scum more or less. I backed her up though because that is in fact quite likely.

wtf I wanna be in the town block
~Maki

Those who want it are not worthy of it; those who seek it not are those that obtain it.

<3 Maki I hope you're not scum today!

Too bad you need exactly that in order to townread the slot!

How do you feel about the other players making this point? Are they sheeps or town? Why?

This is the sort of thing people often ask me about and each time I internally go more or less "uhg, they want me to answer that, don't they?" when I honestly don't like to. The reason I don't like to is that more often than not (this game no exception)...if I don't comment on something, it's not relevant. In other words, that it meant nothing. Or at the very least...it meant nothing to me at the time, and still doesn't but is something to potentially revisit at some future time.

That having been said, RE: commenting on things...

I wish you'd talk more about the people you scumread more.

I did! I just did so in a PT!

...Yes. I realize that means I am forty pages behind. (Welp.) I'll try to keep most of it in the PT, I just couldn't help it.

[Shining Dreamers]

historically, a scum lynch on day 1 is actually worse for town. sometimes, it can work out wonderfully despite that. but for the most part, i'd call it bad. Maki knows what i mean. therefore, seeing as my role powers up on town deaths, and a day 1 scum lynch is bad for town, i propose we collectively agree to lynch town. i know it sounds silly, but it makes sense. i hate seeing town do well on the first day only to tank every other.
VOTE: Mark

You need more conviction and emphasis to pull the Almost50 off.

In the case you're not posting in jest, tho: sure, we can lynch town but the only way lynching town benefits the town is if it is a player we either want to get rid of on policy (I don't think anyone qualifies?), or a player we think could be scum and thus the information from learning they are not proves beneficial.

Lynching town knowing you are lynching town does nothing. And that's what lynching OnTheMark would be.
In other words, wanna lynch town? Aim for scum. It'll still disproportionately likely end up being town because reads are wrong.

Also also another thing, but I wanna wait and see what everybody else has to say before I bring it up. <3

40 pages have passed so I expect to see this.

These last few pages were literal garbage btw and I stopped reading them.
~B

AKA, "these last few pages contained things I didn't want to bother countering so I'll not try".
Though admittedly the content for why you're scum was just about the most useful content to be produced from that page and they were otherwise mostly garbage, yes.

[Shining Dreamers]

it seemed like they started from the position "we're pushing maid cafe" rather than either "we are looking at evidence for maid cafe's alignment" or "we think maid cafe is scum, what evidence supports this"

This is going to blow your mind, but there is in fact ACTUALLY a player where I did this. That is. I decided I was going to push them from the moment I got my PM.

...But that player isn't Maid Cafe.

It's Skybird. (Yume can verify, I said more or less "Legit think Skybird's just scum even though she hasn't even posted yet".)

people are confusing chara doing protown things with it meaning they are more likely to be town.

Nope! The reason Chara is town is because Chara is just transparently obviously not scum. Nothing in its content being protown contributes to that though its content is indeed protown; the reason Chara is town is because Chara bleeds obvtown every step of the way.

Also, you saying this seems to be rather odd given:

OTM is either town of playing an extremely smart scum game.

...Yes I think OnTheMark is town, but this townread? It sounds like a townread based on OnTheMark doing protown things (the very thing you tell people not to townread Chara off of). Care to tell me how it's not?

@everyone also important note, if you have the ability to kill another player please opt to use another card if possible.
There are 8 planes to see across 8 days and I want to visit all of them.
~B

Why is it that literally only my scumreads (e.g. Maid Cafe, Reasonably Rational) make reference to the planes and yet literally nobody else is talking about them?

[Shining Dreamers]

Wait is OTM Mulch?
~Lumia

No.

There's only so many players who are mafiascum regulars, have been gone from playing on mafiascum for the last few (specifically, three) months, and who are frequent players on mafia universe that get nightkilled often there. Also that're rather fond of the theory behind the game. I can think of only one player fitting that criteria, and he's a player I have mislynched. (This is the safest way for me to not narrow his identity down. I'd do so considerably more when stating what happened after said mislynch.)

RR is obv towning tbh, they are asking the right questions and moving the game forwards.

None of which makes them town, it just makes them Reasonably Rational.

[Shining Dreamers]

Why else did you think I offered?
- Phosphophyllite

RIP I thought you offered because you're an angel, not because you're a devil.

I would love to hear your opinions more.

I did encourage Yume to push more btw.
My philosophy for mafia can be summed up as:
It is better to make a bad push than no push at all; it is better to make a strong push than a weak push; it is better to make a wrong push than no push at all. So I told her to make those pushes, as long as she has the skill to know when to back out of them later.

There is no magic mechanic that enables you to steal someones mana and Varsoon is trying to stay true to the real game.

after looking some more, there are certainly cards that do this besides the ones i posted. should i be townreading Maid Cafe for this? they were nullscum before but now i'm musing.

Me and Cerb have flavor knowledge and flavor is something that apparently matters a lot this game. I think we pose a threat to a scum team with 0 magic knowledge.
~B

How likely do you wager it, Chara, that a player claiming to have that level of flavor knowledge would miss this fact?

Even I know that there's magic enabling mana stealing and I'm a filthy casual. (Admittedly I'm more into Magic: The Gathering than most things, I did play even the last godawful abomination of a M:tG game and before that waaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day I played the three-part Magic game, so it is a thing I like and have quite a bit of knowledge about, but I'm not a fangirl.)

^^ Also, I wrote up my response to your post in our hydra PT, but since nobody seems to care about your case or agree with you(so far), I won't bother posting it! <3

-Cerb

Oh I've no doubt it's in the hydra PT, I just don't think that's the only place you put it.

[Shining Dreamers]

Btw I shared this in the PT but I don't think it does harm to bring it out in the open.
I lowkey have a theory that every player in the game has something they think is unique to them that they are attempting to hide, but which in actuality every player in the game has.

If my theory is right, what this is should be fairly self-evident; if my theory is not right, then obviously people won't have a clue what I mean.

[Shining Dreamers]

right now you're just smugly dismissing and discrediting the case.

This would be among the reasons I held distaste for Reasonably Rational's response, yes.

As for RR, the patented Phosphophyllite test is that unless they bring actual read to the main thread, you hang them and you look happy doing it. Not into any PTs alone. Into the main thread. You cannot fail in this way.
- Phosphophyllite

Incidentally, no surprise why Reasonably Rational is in fact in my lynch list!

[Shining Dreamers]

I think we win if we leave you alive, it took us down a dark, desperate path. :-/

You also win if you kill the mason who was the one most heavily scumreading you, which happens to be the same slot this game, so there's a conflict there.

[Shining Dreamers]

I am MathBlade aka Roundabout on MU.

...Huh.
Not the person I thought.

I thought you were mhsmith.

IN THAT CASE.

Second-strongest townread reaffirmed. (Chara's town enough that I'd place an innocent child below it on a readslist. Mathblade's not QUITE on that level. But is still miles stronger than third townread below.)
Those concerns I had for OnTheMark? Concerns about mhsmith; they are utterly nonexistent for Mathblade. Mathblade is once more infallibly town, as infallible as Chara on equal strength because not only was I townreading the slot, but also the things which were red flags to see are Mathblade-tells, not scumtells so.

I am beginning to townread Skybird. Let me express my suspicion hereforth on players who attempt to paint her as scummy.

Fortunately, my goal is to lynch scum, not look town, so I don't give a damn about this and shall continue to call Skybird scum.

[Shining Dreamers]

can anyone with more meta comment on almost50's entry? am i the only one that feels like he's under-contributing than what i'd expect?

Admittedly his entrance lacks a certain something that would make me feel he is town, but I have good reason to think this is him as town anyway.

[Shining Dreamers]

Screw it, catch up post off the top of my head, go!
I don't understand how A50 does not have ANY reads as of his last post, and in my limited experiences with him, this seems off. He usually seems confident to me. This is absurd.
VOTE: Almost50
Micc is limited in posting, might be a townlean considering he has good content but I just feel like there's so little. OTM is trying to gamesolve, he's town. Venmar is either trolling or just doesn't care about anything. It's odd. Iceconum feels like he is soft feeling who he can push. I don't like it. Taly is another case of not having much going on. Like, avoiding doing anything too AI but did claim early. I know the Kiana/Titus hydra seems like it's pretty okay but I need more for a full read. Maid Cafe who is someone and Beeboy seems decent, not great. Chara has said really weird shit, but I don't know it's play style outside of an ongoing game with it right now, may just be a weird thing. Reasonably Rational seems to be good. They are thinking, they are reasoning, they are sharing with the class from what I recall. Rest I can't remember having strong feelings either way at this point.
-Tibor

Yeah I can’t shake the feeling Tibor/Lumia is scum.

You need to differentiate between "bad" and "scum". 727 is easily the worst post in the entire game by leagues. It is certifiably terrible. A bad post of bad posts, and it's not an isolated incident; Tibor and Lumia's posting has in fact been filled with such posts.

...However, that having been said. It was bad in a way which doesn't say scum to me. There's scum-bad, and then there's town-bad. This was town-bad. I can differentiate between the two if need be but would prefer you trust me on this.

Is it bad I town read Dunnstral for the timing of his "hi" post? Because I do and according to Maki that's really stupid
~B

It's actually not; this is the towniest post you've made the entire game and is a sentiment I happen to agree with.

VOTE: Micc

~B

This is the lazyman's vote: Micc is a scum looking for a town player to mislynch's best friend. What I mean by that is, Micc is disproportionately likely to be town...but he is a player that even his strongest proponents for defending him have very little they can do or say in the way of advocating for his townness, whereas in contrast he has plenty which can be used to push for a lynch on him.

He isn't, however, qualified as EITHER lynchbait OR low-hanging fruit. He's not someone people think is an "easy target". He is someone who there is cause to go after, and yet there is no fallout for having gone after him and no fallout from being wrong on him. In other words. Micc is the scum's dream mislynch. A player that can be voted while looking town in voting him.

Understandably, you might then be able to reasonably infer my opinion of this vote is not high!

I am taking a break from this game mostly today.

~B

AKA making an excuse to lurk and get away with it.

[Shining Dreamers]

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

[Shining Dreamers]

grand themes: what knowledge the scum has about the setup that town does not, and how they use it.

Hint:

@everyone also important note, if you have the ability to kill another player please opt to use another card if possible.
There are 8 planes to see across 8 days and I want to visit all of them.
~B

Why is it that literally only my scumreads (e.g. Maid Cafe, Reasonably Rational) make reference to the planes and yet literally nobody else is talking about them?

Nothing anywhere as far as I can tell indicates planes are in any way shape or form actually important.
And yet......

[Shining Dreamers]

Hmm our mana ability doesn't work the way I thought it did.
~B

Funny how that seems to work, innit?

[Shining Dreamers]

pedit:@MC: You probably have the coolest spells.

I actually think mine would be rather helpful in fucking scum over (specifically I can fuck any scum strategy with cards over) if not for the fact of YOU KNOW MY MANA HAVING BEING STOLEN. (Well, lost, butstill.)

wow. does Varsoon hate you?

The answer to this is yes given that the ability I thought was broken we have is actually so ridiculously weak as to be utterly worthless altogether.

Sadly, V hates town and scum equally so. Doesn't give an indication of their alignment.

Pedit: Sarcasm doesn’t suit you Cerb.

It really doesn't!

I think Taly should copy Chara to see if the miller thing is fake. Not really show how useful that is though since Chara could just be a scum miller
~B

Obligatory reminder that Maid Cafe is scum.

[Shining Dreamers]

i don't want to be towncleared. in fact i was happy to be miller because it meant i couldn't be. it's like drawing a reverse IC.

Unfortunately for you, as town you suck at trying to be untown.

Hrm.... Chara you got anything to do other than talking about being a miller?

You got anything to do other than talk about Chara being a miller? Like...literally anything at all?

Regarding the Taly thing: that's obviously a dumb thing to do, the only reason why it's a consideration is because multiple people suspect them, therefore if the lynch is going to happen eventually, best if at some point prior to it happening they checked Chara.

The thing which makes this stupid tho is that Chara is transparently town and thus using any investigative on Chara and so much as suggesting it is tantamount to a scumclaim. Even rolecopping a miller. Because we don't need the rolecop to verify that Chara is a miller. We already know it to be fact because Chara is town and transparently so.

Thus suggesting the rolecop there is blatantly a scumfuck move.

[Shining Dreamers]

Iconeum are scummy.

Skybird is Hinduragi and Iconeum is mastina. Iconeum is townreading one of the scummiest posts in the game off the belief that Skybird is town and desires to work with her but he is being naive because Skybird is actually just scum.

[Shining Dreamers]

anyone with meta on cerb, can you confirm or deny if it's in his town range to shade/discredit people (not exclusively regarding chara, it's something i've seen him do this game and it's bothering me).

Not in the way he's done this game, no, but as scum it's a favored tactic of his.

I don't understand why you think I'm discrediting them. I just know it's going ot be really hard for me to look at the tally of their actions this game on like D5 adn be able to definitely conclude they're town. :-/

Maybe because that's literally what you're fucking doing and the followthrough sentence is self-evidently proof of it.

Shining Dreamers
Chara

Maid Cafe

Venmar
Dunnstral

Reasonably Rational
Baku and Munna

These slots are all town btw ^^

Yeahhhhhhhhhh, aboooooooooooout thaaaaaat......

[Shining Dreamers]

gonna have to make sure you die before Lylo then.
~Maki

There's an easy way to accomplish that!

Can I just pretend the group of people below are all IC's, and go from there? Anybody think that leads to a loss a significant percentage of the time?
OnTheMark
Shining Dreamers (Hydra: Yume & Mastina)
Chara

Baku and Munna (Hydra: Randomidget & Shiro)
Maid Cafe (Hydra: Maki & Beeboy)

Bronya Zaychik (Hydra: Titus & Kiana Kaslana)
-Cerb

Given the bolded?

Why yes.

Yes, I do.

[Shining Dreamers]

Stopped at page 35, got bored pretty quickly

Creature might actually be scum this game.

Creature is posting regularly = likely Town!Creature here

I thought I posted too little.

Correct. And also it's what you're doing WHEN posting. I'm looking for something from you which I'd expect if you were town and I am not seeing it.

However, you're not a scumread because there's a potential sign of what I'm looking for. I need more time.

was it Maid Cafe's list that also had Baku in it? talk about that? :>

It's ALMOST like there might be some reason these slots have that interlink!

[Shining Dreamers]

- Creature is Town, he's active enough

I have some reservations, but I'm seeing more of what I'm after, so yes. More likely than not.

So what changed your read from point A to point B here?

A fine question indeed! (Did I mention Dunnstral is town?)

You’re just scum

You know what.

VOTE: Skybird.

Let's go here.

If Yume doesn't mind.
Then strongest scumread + others I trust scumreading the slot = likely scum lynch D1.

[Shining Dreamers]

Varsoon had a post up while he was making the game that showed his progress, and it showed x/8 planes created. In addition, he stated that if the game went longer than that, he'd start recycling them(or make new ones, he wasn't completely clear). So, there's cause to believe there are 8 planes.
-Cerb

Yes but it's that very same process which would lead me to think that planes aren't important--if V reached a point where he was forced to make up a new plane, that would mean that there couldn't exactly be pre-planned game mechanics for said made up ninth plane, now, could it? As a result, that would mean planes mean little to nothing...

...And I find it no coincidence many of my scumreads keep referencing the planes as a result. Because the mod's posts indicate that the planes can't be that important (if they were then making up a ninth plane would be something he'd need to do IN ADVANCE), and thus that is the assumption I'd work off of, unless there were direct mod info stating otherwise available to certain select parties......

I don't know about anyone else, but it seems to be that MC's claimed method for getting mana is extremely complicated.

Mine is, too.

Sadly, V likes making scum just as equally complicated as town so this doesn't mean much.

HOWEVER.

You may note.

I've raised a point more or less similar to what you have said.
bee attacked me for my claim, which I rescinded when the mod corrected me...
...Then went on to claim in the exact same manner I had done, which was forced to be rescinded when V corrected bee.

That's what I was getting at before.

[Shining Dreamers]

I actually just clicked your signature, and had the biggest laugh I've had this week!

Incidentally I still feel shitty about having made the mistake. I REALLY thought I was placing them at L-1, not hammering. They were lynched entirely on accident through a legit honest mistake.

Makes me think you pulled these reads out of somewhere the sun doesn't shine.

They did but the Dunnstral townread I actually get.

It's the baku/munna one which should set off the red flags.
(I mean the Reasonably Rational one is also scumtastic but I can acknowledge it not being taken that way, so.)

[Shining Dreamers]

Iconeum is scummy. Skybird is not.

Sorry, but you got that backwards.

Congratulations on building a paragraph case to townread "hi". Have a cookie!

Honestly it's from my book of play and I could literally write that post.

...Mostly as scum.

And always about someone who is in fact actually town.

[Shining Dreamers]

Girlfriend's free so I'm out for now, am on 46 and will resume from there.

[Shining Dreamers]

If anyone can GIVE mana I would like some mana.

Seconded.

You said we won't die. You broke your promise, promise-breaker.... >.>

- Phosphophyllite

[Shining Dreamers]

ugh
cmon guys if your gonna spampost can you please do it while i'm here soi can actually have some conversations?

mastina you can say goodbye to your mana btw.

Why???

I townread Mastina+Yume

This is scum mastina I'm sorry I never seen mastina just be so wrong before and approach a game from such a scummy PoV.

ayy it isnt just me

And since we're the same, you're scumreading me as well, and you never do that on d1 as town.

- Phosphophyllite

what is it with horrific omgus this game

Don't give me that, scum defender.

Bye.

[Shining Dreamers]

Phos is leaving, cos they can't stand being in the game where people believe scum and doubt town. It caused out loss in SU2 and it will cause the loss this time as well. I will have no part in that the second time..... >.>

[Shining Dreamers]

I want to improve, but how can I do that if people insist on lynching me for a post that isn't even mine?

[Shining Dreamers]

To top it off, Alisae is aware that I, who is the dominant head in this game, is NOT a D1 player. Yet e scumreads the whole hydra for something posted by someone who rarely posts?

[Shining Dreamers]

Sure, lynch Purple Heart.

[Shining Dreamers]

Because they are afraid we will be onto them if we're allowed to live past D1 and use our combined strengths.

[Shining Dreamers]

Because they are afraid we will be onto them if we're allowed to live past D1 and use our combined strengths.

[Shining Dreamers]

And none yet. But they will as soon as we're gone, cos they knows that one of us can cut through her lies like toilet paper. With us gone, they'll be free to manipulate the rest of you, basically. You'll see.

[Shining Dreamers]

And look at the latest votecount. The proof of their manipulation is right there. They manipulated all of you into voting us.

[Shining Dreamers]

And look at the latest votecount. The proof of their manipulation is right there. They manipulated all of you into voting us.

[Shining Dreamers]

Whatever then, be dense. Lose another game for all I care. >.>

[Shining Dreamers]

>People lose a game for not listening to a conftown and insisting they should be allowed to make mistakes and lose the game in the name of their own stupid pride
>People lose the game for believing a scum player blindly because of something said scum player said in a PT

Rinse and repeat.

[Shining Dreamers]

Crazy thought: Mastina Skybird Alisae RR?

No. When we were scum together, e defended me up until I was guiltied. E wouldn't bus me unless I get guiltied again. Ergo, we're not scum together.

[Shining Dreamers]

Listen to me for once. If e flips town, I will follow you and do whatever you say. I refuse to lose another game because scum got into people's heads and brainwashed them using PTs.

[Shining Dreamers]

I failed to make a difference in SU2 because I was dead at the time. I will not stand by and let history repeat itself. You'll kill me because e says so, I am aware of this. So I'll hammer it down that they are scum at every opportunity before we die and force you to listen to reason once we're dead.

[Shining Dreamers]

Also, nobody has said anything about any PT's existing. I'm pretty sure some will exist at some point, maybe not now, but yeah. Your fear of scum brainwashing via PT's has no basis in reality as far as anyone knows.

-Cerb

We're 90% sure that at least five exist at this time. This isn't a fact, but yeah.....

[Shining Dreamers]

My partner and I have a color PT. It's a large neighborhood. She has a theory that four more PTs exist for each color.

[Shining Dreamers]

So family night went pretty late (we're talking like 11 pm late), and I get up early (we're talking 6 am with it being 1 am right now), meaning I obviously don't have time to do so now.
No promises for any time date where I will.
I'm honestly swamped with work, is another reason why the idea was to let Yume drive in that I know I'm busy, so.

BUTSTILL.

Something I meant to post before I went to bed when I did my catchup--a readslist. I posted this in the PT (Yume can verify), but here it is in thread as promised.
Chara
OnTheMark

Bronya Zaychik

Dunnstral
Iconeum
Tibor and Lumia
Venmar
Micc
Almost50
SnarkySnowman

Creature (CAVEAT: need more time, could be much, much higher, will let you know when I can)


(YES THE GAP IS ACTUALLY THIS FUCKING HUGE)

Baku and Munna
Taly/Alisae
Maid Cafe
Reasonably Rational
Skybird

My expectation is that there is either 4 or 5 scum in the game. (5 is high but not impossible, so I'd rather be on the safe side and assume five as a precaution.)
Given that I have 5.5 scumreads, that's .5-1.5 too many, I know.
As it just so happens, and I said this in the PT, my scumreads happen to have a certain degree of mutual exclusivity to them. This is strongest in Skybird-Maid Cafe, in that while I firmly scumread both slots, I don't think they work as scumbuddies. In fact I am positive at least one is town. (And it's not impossible both are.)

[Shining Dreamers]

Knew I forgot a detail.
That 2267 is my readslist as of 1124. Bottom of page 45. I still need to read 46 onwards before I can give an updated readslist.
I'll catch up as I can.
I can't right now.

If Yume asks me to look at anything specific, pings me on any particular thing, or so on and so forth (e.g. it'd have been useful to know Mark-->Mathblade, she DID let me know that the Taly slot had become Alisae), then I will look at it, address it, so on and so forth. Otherwise, will remain reading chronologically, and mostly commenting in the PT. (At least that's the idea. I...admittedly have been using it less than promised, and using this thread more than I wanted to. Among other things, there's like dozens of Reasonably Rational posts which I found scum that I just didn't quote not even in there. And even of the ones I have quoted, only a fraction I've given my reasoning for. I SHOULD be giving it, but honestly the more behind I am the less inclined I am to give it since typing up reasoning = taking up time which I have precious little of.)

She DOES want my help (in our hydra PT she asked for advice), but I want to

help

her. Not

strangle

her. So, apologies, but behind closed doors is where most of my content will remain. (For instance, I made a comment in the PT that Gamma's strategy was much the same as what my intention this game is, rather than stating so out here; I need to be doing a lot more of that.)

[Shining Dreamers]

And I mean
As appealing as waiting for you to catch up is.
I don't feel like seeing multiple scumclaims from you over and over insisting that MC is scum with how you've been pushing them currently.

Yeah, you are scum trying to quicklynch us. Town you would at least wait for us to provide more info. Even if you scumread us, you'd let us give info you could use to catch our potential buddies. That's why I believe you are only scum trying to remove us early.

[Shining Dreamers]

I'm honestly a bit of a mess right now; I feel like shit, work is utterly exhausting (because I'm working two jobs, my hours are exceeding 40/week and thus I'm working more than full time; I get up at 6 am and yet I often get home at like 8 pm having 14-hour days) to the point where I was struggling not to fall asleep behind the wheel today and even nearly had an accident (admittedly I don't think it was something not being tired woulda helped with, was trying to merge over and in spite of me looking over my shoulder somehow missed the car which was there until the horn rather rudely gave me a harsh awakening to the situation) today, so.

Oh. And also I am just. Mentally scattered. I had trouble focusing at work today, I had trouble doing anything, and honestly the absolute last thing I want to be doing right now is mafia. I just want to spend time doing games of some sort. Or maybe catch up on blogging since I still have three different rambles to ramble on. But the thing is. While I want to do those things and absolutely don't want to do mafia things. If I don't do the mafia stuff now, I know I never will, so.

I'm here, for about an hour and a half. Reminder I'm on page 46; will catch up as much as I can in that time. I'll try to keep anything I can to the PT, but no promises.

[Shining Dreamers]

Iconeum needs to be pressured to see what shakes out and I'm fine with that.

I admittedly acknowledge the concerns about Iconeum have a rather large basis in fact, but I firmly believe there is a town justification for his actions that isn't scum.

their (Iconeum and Skybird's) interaction right after Iconeum votes me is something i might want to come back to.

And I'm telling you that Iconeum is mastina this game blindly townreading Skybird who is Hinduragi this game.

But if Skybird is town we are none the wiser about Maid Cafe's alignment.

Technically speaking, this is true. However, what it'd do is it'd validate Skybird's alignment as town, thereby making her content be given with a town mindset and I actually hold some interest in what she's posted, so to speak. I feel it is more likely scum than town, yes. But if she flipped town, then her reads and reasoning wouldn't be ignored because she was the lynch. I guarantee you that.

I mean I wouldn't treat her word as gospel, but I'd do what I could to work with it. Furthermore. Even ignore that factor. Skybird is basically within the POE scumteam pool. I don't need to name the scumteam on D1. But I do need to have them inside the lynchlist. I truly believe that scum aren't outside the six names I listed. It's POSSIBLE, sure, yeah. It's just not probable to me. So if Skybird flipped town, then each of the other five would have their chance of being scum skyrocket.

By BOTH halves of this. Skybird's pushes, who pushed Skybird, and the POE list, a Skybird lynch is useful regardless of her alignment.

I have a clear idea of what a Skybird townflip gives us.
I have a clear idea of what a Skybird scumflip gives us.
Arguably, I'd even say that the townflip gives MORE than the scumflip in terms of info provided, albeit being suboptimal because dead scum > dead town.

[Shining Dreamers]

Cerb I am disappointed. Gambler’s fallacy from you?

Which alignment do you expect Cerb to be when you are disappointed in him?

[Shining Dreamers]

I have a hunch the team is Sky, Bryona, RR and munna

Aside from Bronya who're hardtown here, I'd back you up here 100% and will fully vote the fuck out of any wagon forming on any of Sky/RR/munna.

beeboy keeps making me paranoid of Maid Cafe.
beeboy, why's baku town?

Why indeed.

The paranoia isn't paranoia. Both Maki and bee are hitting all the right scum notes. Paranoia isn't calling them scum; paranoia is calling them town. (Which admittedly I'd be lying if I said I held none of; there's a fair amount because while they hit ALL the right scum notes, they hit a

few

town notes.)

[Shining Dreamers]

oh, Venmar's also joined the townlist.

He joined it long, long ago.

Dunnstral has no reason to be scum and has reason to be town. This is one of the few instances where I can actually defend Maid Cafe and agree with them, at least on the read itself if nothing else. This is well within Dunnstral's town meta and not exactly what I'd expect from him as scum...but even without the meta, what little he HAS done I'd call able to be described by, "This has a clear definitive town motive present behind it; this has no apparent scum motive behind it".

Iconeum I acknowledge there are some rather strong reasons for him to be scum. His approach, his content, all of it sucks and is not what I would have expected coming from him as scum...but in spite of that. There is a VERY strong motive present behind his actions which tells me "This is something I don't see coming from scum and I understand it coming from town".

Tibor and Lumia are in the town list because while their content has been objectively terrible, it has not been objectively scum. Quite the opposite, their content lacks a scum motive. The closest I can pick up to a scum motive is how bad their reads are...but they aren't of sufficient skill where you can burden of proficiency them. (Btw, hint: this is one of the reasons Creature is not significantly higher on my readslist; he CAN be burden of proficiency'd, and so far his reads lack the magic of being stellar to the point of shining his alignment through.)

The reasons they give might be shit, and the reads they give might be shit. But neither makes a person scum in of itself. You have to evaluate the person as a whole and the situation as a whole and come to the conclusion, thinking like THEY do, "Does this make sense coming from town?" or "Does this make sense coming from scum?" It doesn't really make sense coming from scum; it

does

make sense coming from town.

These are the players above Venmar who aren't locktown, but give you a good frame of reference for what I mean: townblocked players, who COULD be scum, they just...aren't.

Venmar himself, I admit it's mostly inexplicable. If I had to call a reason for him to be town, it'd be a combination of gut and tone, in that I like what he is saying and think him saying it comes from a perspective more likely to be town than not, but I lack any concrete way of describing this. It is something that exists across all his content.

Btw, the players below Venmar that are still in that same "townbloc players who COULD be scum, they just...aren't"?

Micc, I explained my read more or less there already:

Micc is a scum looking for a town player to mislynch's best friend. What I mean by that is, Micc is disproportionately likely to be town...but he is a player that even his strongest proponents for defending him have very little they can do or say in the way of advocating for his townness, whereas in contrast he has plenty which can be used to push for a lynch on him.

He isn't, however, qualified as EITHER lynchbait OR low-hanging fruit. He's not someone people think is an "easy target". He is someone who there is cause to go after, and yet there is no fallout for having gone after him and no fallout from being wrong on him. In other words. Micc is the scum's dream mislynch. A player that can be voted while looking town in voting him.

I realize I used this as a point against Maid Cafe because their vote on him was bad, but the townread still holds along those same lines.

Micc is a mislynch in the making; he has all the hallmarks of a town mislynch and none of the hallmarks of a correct scum lynch. Micc's content is much the same as Tibor and Lumia's, in that it is objectively scummy...but it is not actually objectively scum. Again, when coming from the approach of reading what the mindset behind Micc's actions would be, there is a VERY strong, apparent, self-evident narrative for him to be town, but the perspective for him being scum has a narrative which is a stretch, at best.

He's someone who could possibly be scum, yes, because the nature of his content could come from scum...but based around every factor in the game, he just isn't.

Almost50 I also believe I more or less explained (it's possible I did so in the PT, and if so, Yume can verify I more or less said this), but basically, while I recognize that he is lacking a lot of his signature town self, he is also lacking any of his scum self as far as I can tell and weakly, the him I see is indicative of him being town.

This can give you an excellent frame of reference for what I mean with my positions.

If you have questions, then you can always ask them.
If Yume directs me to them I'll answer them; if she doesn't, then I'll still answer them, just...much, much, much later, when I actually reach that point in the thread.

[Shining Dreamers]

ok this is blatant OMGUS
mark you're either playing shit or are scum making disingenuous pushes
VOTE: onthemark
let's throw down

Okay, this is blatant OMGUS.
baku and munna, you're either playing shit or are scum making disingenuous pushes.

...Seriously though. This is a scumpost, through and through.

So too is this one:

also chara is scum caught in a gambit
skybird is lynch bait and ico possibly is as well but i'm not sure yet

(Since I'm not giving reasons right now I should prolly have posted these in the PT but oh well. I feel like I need to publicly emphasize these ones.)

[Shining Dreamers]

Why would MC scum have a mana requiremebt that needs town?

All alignments were generated AFTER roles were created.

(Yes I realize this means I should probably retract my "that seems like a scum role" stance which I've taken against Maid Cafe and Taly among others, though I'd like to note still that there are roles which have +EV for scum > +EV for town and that the method of claiming a role is rather important; the claims from Maid Cafe and Taly have not been town.)

If MC had the role they described, they could have scum do it in RVS phase.

And what, pray tell, happens if we get an MC scum lynch and see how MC gained mana?

And then we see these players who seem to have gone out of their way to have done the things enabling it, almost as if there were a secret communication line in place......?

...I think my point comes across. Scum can't deliberately boost one another's mana by any significant margin because any attempt to do so privately would become obvious upon the scumflip of the player generating the mana. And mind you, there are enough players scumreading Maid Cafe that a lynch there is not at all something impossible to obtain...thus. Players generating mana for Maid Cafe with Maid Cafe not outing the method would be too incriminating to the scumteam; they would not play that way.

With the reads in the game thusfar, pretty much the only players who I'd say could realistically get away with it are Chara and Bronya Zaychik. (OnTheMark has enough scumreads where there's the potential for Mathblade to get lynched and they are a competent enough player to be aware of when that will and will not happen. Literally all my townreads are players there is enough reason to scumread that if they were scum they couldn't guarantee they get away with it. Creature people are townreading but if he is scum then he knows that his time is limited and thus that he'll die. And my scumreads are...well. Scumreads of a fairly charismatic player who pushes reads hard. And most of my scumreads are players where I am not alone; there is support behind them. Soooooooo...)

Scum can't really risk blatantly generating mana for a scumbuddy because there is no scum player who is immune to being lynched such that their mana generation method wouldn't be exposed. As a result, it's not really a viable option no matter what, CERTAINLY not for Maid Cafe.

[Shining Dreamers]

no bc then they have to come up with genuine defensible standpoints rather than contrived bs

Funny, that sounds a lot like what you're doing!

i don't want you to vote me, i'm saying that you called me scum caught in a gambit, but said that Mark was either playing badly or scum. and chose to vote Mark. i think it's because half the game knows i'm obvtown.

Among the reasons the slot is scum, yes.

Btw SnarkySnowman is...well. He's him, that's who he is. And his play this game...sure is him.
If I had to assign an alignment to posts like 1273 though...it would be town.

That, by the way?

A claim I'd be more inclined to say comes from town.

I might be developing some sort of sickness (wouldn't surprise me), so I should be going to bed now.
I'll see if I can do more tomorrow, but once more, no promises. Tuesday is usually my longest day. (Guaranteed get up at six, guaranteed get home at 8, no break in between really at all. Every other day there's either a break, no guarantee, or both.)

[Shining Dreamers]

Another long day, another time I'd not really want to be playing (especially since if I am sick--still can't tell--then playing mafia is not exactly something which cures my ailments; mafia = stress and stress = makes sickness worse, sooooo...) but don't really have much of a choice but to play.
Also there hasn't been any pings in the PT so if you want me, again, a reminder that unless I am pinged, I'm not going to see your post for a much, much, much longer time period. I have to be told it exists because until I am told it exists or I read for myself that it exists, it doesn't exist. (Whole, read things chronologically no exceptions, thing.)

I'm only here for like an hour, but...I am in fact here.

Well.

If you'd call me being on page 52 when there are 116 pages, 'here'.

[Shining Dreamers]

oh i was just referring to the non-stop altslips being done by everyone

EXCUSE me.
My 'altslips' were because the account wasn't actually active; it was impossible to post on the right account at the time.
If I had trouble posting on mastina in a game I was playing as that account, you can bet your ass I'd post on mastin2 or some well-known hydra account or the like, since I'm gonna play and not wait for the stupid activation.

Though that does remind me.

Spoiler: mastina posts, pre-hydra

Btw,

-Hydra isn't activated yet, but inevitably-it'll-be-Aristophanes doesn't take long to activate hydras, but at the moment can't post within it for this game.

-For the most part, I'm intending to let Yume drive. I have a very, very, VERY bad tendency when I hydra with players to more or less smother them out--yet I'm only in this game because Yume was kind enough to offer me the chance to hydra, so at all costs I want to avoid that. The IDEA is to let her do her own thing and to only do my thing when it doesn't interfere with her thing and/or when she specifically wants/needs me to do my thing (e.g. needing feedback). I don't intend to slack off, but I don't intend to rob her of her chance to play.

In other words,
No Worries, For those who want a Rest from me; you'll get that during every Day phase.

Oh, also.
I think this is important to claim.

NOBODY CAST ANY VOTES UNTIL OUR HYDRA HAS HAD A CHANCE TO CAST VOTES.

We have a very, very strong ability which has a very, very specific trigger--and every time a player votes before we use this, the ability becomes weaker.
Go ahead and FoS all you want, but for the duration of the time we are alive, this will apply at the beginning of every day phase.

Oh.

Orrrrrr...our ability could be ridiculously, ridiculously week of the mod correction means anything.
Disregard my message then.

(THIS IS WHY WORDING IN ROLE PMS IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE MY INTERPRETATION OF THE ROLE WAS A GAMEBREAKINGLY POWERFUL ABILITY AND YET V IS TELLING ME HE MEANT SOMETHING ELSE WITH THAT WORDING. /rant )

Also, mastina, is it a rule that you HAVE to start every game making some claim about your role?
-Cerb

Only in a Varsoon game.

I never actually quoted them before now.

I AM JUST ANNOUNCING THAT I AM TOWN DON'T MIND ME.

Sorry, but I counterclaim. I sincerely doubt you are town given that I am town.

[Shining Dreamers]

Anyway, I got told to act like me, so this is what you get.

Why would you need to be

told

to act

like yoursef

?? Of course, this is NAI for Yume, but really; why would you

not

act like you unless you're told so??

Technically speaking, my advice to her in the hydra PT was: Keep reading the thread; stay involved; don't let yourself be in a position where after D3 you can't play; do whatever's necessary to enable D3 play where she gets to said strong point.

Then a couple of days later, I gave a short version of my beliefs.
Paraphrasing,

Spoiler: (Spoilered because it was a long post specifically to Yume)

"Bad push > no push at all.
Wrong push > no push at all.
Strong push that's wrong > weak push (arguably even if the weak push is right).

Provided one factor.

The ability to either DROP the push later, or strengthen it into a good one, depending on the evolution of the read.

It is controversial advice, and playing that way is one reason I am perceived as insufferable/intolerable; it is easy to be accused of having confirmation bias.
With hard pushes, often featuring shitty reasons if reasons are present at all, content is generated. As long as that reevaluation ability given new info garnered from the push remains, the push was not worthless. It does make me appear as a tunneler; I push and don't let up, seemingly never letting up until my target dies.

Every stage, increasing the strength of the push; every stage, looking for how valid it is. Self-evaluating if I might be onto something or am barking up the wrong tree. If the former, using evidence procured from the push to keep going, highlighting my stronger points and emphasizing why I feel I'm right; if the latter, reevaluating off of procured evidence to analyze what the game is like with the changed read.

The theory: the stronger the push--regardless of good, bad, right, wrong--the more useful the content generated from it. Push weakly, content generated is weak; push strongly, content generated is strong. These factors exist regardless of correct or wrong, good backing or poor reasoning.

So always push. Right, wrong, good, bad, doesn't matter, just push...and keep on pushing.

At least in theory.

It also should help other players in THEIR evaluation of the content generated as a result of the push--often ignored initially, but in hindsight when they reevaluate, going back to those critical sections, seeing things with the information now available. It can and does help YOU for much the same reason, sorting the slot you push. (This is what I refer to as the magic of talking.) Not just who you push, either, but others and how they react to your push.

This is most useful lategame but still useful earlygame, albeit requiring the use of implied reads--something requiring an incredible degree of self-consciousness, where if ANY of the reads change, the others are appropriately adjusted. What I mean is, "if this player is scum, these players are more likely town/scum"; "if this player is town, these players are more likely scum/town", and the stringing of these in a chain: "if A scum, B town; if B town, C town; if C town, D scum".

TAKE EXTREME CAUTION. This requires self-restraint to not get overly attached to those ideas. They're theories/hypotheses. You can have one as a working assumption, but they're speculation at best. When ANY factor in the chain changes, you cannot leave the reads generated from the chain as they were. Usually."

This mighta been after 468 though. I know for a FACT that my "Keep reading the thread; stay involved; ...." post was

before

468, but this spoilered post's content mighta been after, would have to check timestamps there.

Have we estabilished a towncore?

Not nearly enough of one.

Tell me why you haven't tried on your own.

Since that's normally kinda sorta one of your stronger selling points.

Why is RR missing?

Because Reasonably Rational is absolutely NOT a townread.

[Shining Dreamers]

Also @Bee - Ur probably town judging by post count cuz either you lurk early and Claire does the heavy lifting if you were scum tell me where to vote.

So this is 100% a scum post.

The question isn't whether Alisae is scum.

The question is whether this is Alisae talking to a scumbuddy openly (Maid Cafe is scum) or Alisae blatantly buddying the FUCK out of bee who is the person that above all others Alisae as scum would be aiming to pocket here (Maid Cafe is town).

Surprisingly enough--I'd actually buy the latter as more likely.

[Shining Dreamers]

pedit: Chara sure.
Lurkstrall lol ok sure.
Cerby/Drixx well, I don't remember misreading them when they randed wolf, so thats a read I can probably verify for myself.

One of these things is not like the others~

[Shining Dreamers]

Did Creature disappear or did you guys post a whole lot in a smal amount of time?

The answer is yes.

Thats not what makes me concerned.
What does make me concerned is that during the day, Micc can steal mana from people.
Say he makes me lose all of the mana I gain during the day and I had 3 mana.
He then gains 3 mana.

I probably fucked up in the first place by claiming I copied Micc but oh well.
If he's scum, now he's forced to target a scummy person and we can leash that.

Also if anyone wants to know why I targetted Micc, I targetted Micc because when I ISO'd him, his push on my predecessor looked really scummy to me. He was basicly pushing a lot of "facts" and it didn't really come across as a read. It felt like something that was really easy to justify a push off of.

Not to mention I feel like the strength of the read given how far the day has progressed is unnaturally strong.
Like, I read it and I am concerned about how he was able to form a read of that strength so early. It makes me feel like he already has all of the answers already.

Plus, 703 is actually bad imo. I disagree with claiming to spur discussion, but that IS a town motivated thought of wanting people to talk. And it completely feels like he's not even attempting to analyze Taly's motivation. Like, what does scum!Taly have from claiming that besides towncred? Why would scum!Taly claim it in the first place? Like, it doesn't make sense for him to claim that as scum at all imo.

The whole read to me feels unnatural and agenda based so...

VOTE: Alisae

[Shining Dreamers]

I have never seen so many terrible mastina posts
I have never faced scum!mastina
I think this might be scum!mastina

I have never seen so many terrible Alisae posts
I have never faced scum!Alisae
I think this might be scum!Alisae

Btw should prolly stop here for the night; I still have to eat and it's almost midnight, the time I should be going to bed and it does take me time to eat.

Stopping at 58.