Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[skitter30]

Hi everyone!

Hi drixx!

VOTE: oxy for being first!

@mod:

I'm always v/la on Fridays and Saturdays

[skitter30]

Is your vote serious?
VOTE: ruru

Is this vote serious?

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1. How is lurking not a scum tell?

I feel like activity is NAI in general. For some specific people, lurking is a scumtell, but I don't think that tell works on everyone in general.

Also I don't really think that not posting between {four hours before the thread opens and four hours after the thread opens} constitutes as lurking tbh. He's probably just busy or whatever irl.

2. If I wanted to hear from people who've been "afk for a long time", I wouldn't vote on him. I voted on him because he recently logged in, but hasn't posted, and if he is in fact lurking then it will get him to post.

Yes, but if he hasn't been on site between now and then, how would he know that you voted him? Like I don't really get the point of voting someone who hasn't been on-site in ~8 hours or whatever it is in an attempt to get them to post when:

a) 8 hours isn't exactly lurking

b) if he wasn't on-site, he doesn't know that you want him to post, and you voting him won't change that.

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I have a slight town read on both ofrhz and ruru for this interaction, but that is more than anyone else.

Why?

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It was a random vote with the added benefit that *if* he is lurking and not just AFK, that it might get him to talk. That purpose has already been somewhat derailed but now we have new information anyway.

OK, I think I get what you're getting at now, especially since you said you're more familiar with games with shorter days.

I'm pretty sure 'last visited' means the last time he logged in - I don't think he's been here at all since this morning at 3am or whatever. like I think he's just afk. Also, even if he's actually been following along but hasn't been posting, I don't find that problematic given the short timeframe after the day started. If someone had made a pattern of not posting for long periods of time (like a couple of days at a time) repeatedly, I would find that suspicious. Sometimes people just can't post over a couple of hours; for example, on days I have class I'll follow along from my phone even if I don't post till I get home cuz I like to post from my computer. I wouldn't classify that as 'lurking'.

Does it bother you that Drixx/westen/callitwhatyouwant haven't posted yet?

ofrhz's "I don’t think lurking is a scum tell" is by far the scummiest thing I've seen so far.

Why do you think this is scummy?

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Also are we even in rvs? Genuine question

We were, but we're out of it at this point I think.

next page in another post a bit later.

[skitter30]

And then I looked at everyone's last time online, realized how long it had been since they had logged in, and decided to switch RVS votes to someone more likely to be active early.

Scum!Oxy would have likely used the original image, had he bothered to make an image at all, since it would give him an excuse to passively wait for his RVS target to show up.

Are you trying to use the fact that you went to the effort of making that image as a reason to townread you?

In reality, Ruru had checked other members of the game, found the person who had been active most recently, and chose them. This is super town motivated because it increases the chances that Ruru has to actually engage with the person they vote on.

I don't understand why you think this is town-motivated. Or, more specifically, I don't get why you think voting for someone because they *aren't* here makes it more likely that you'll be able to engage with them than voting someone who demonstrated they *are* here (ie people who posted already). I guess what I'm trying to say is that your reason for townreading ruru (laying their first vote on someone they'll be able to engage with) doesn't really match what ruru actually did (voting someone because they *weren't* here).

(I have the flu and I can't tell if I'm expressing myself well, so if I'm not lmk so I can try again.)

7 has a carefree attitude that I like in response to an RVS vote, and that I especially like coming from someone not comfortable with RVS generally.

I was thinking the same thing actually.

18 apologizes for the misunderstanding, and proceeds to never bring it up again <--- townie

After this point in the thread there seems to be mainly misunderstanding/misrepresenting between the two of them.

In your own words, the two of them continued to misrep/misunderstand each other even after ofrhz said he misread the post, so I'm not sure why you're giving him townpoints for 'never bringing it up again' when the argument continued after.

How do we know who has confirmed/who hasn't?

It's in the OP - bolded names have confirmed.

So out of those three I will be most suspicious if Drixx doesn't post today. It does not bother me that he hasn't posted yet.

Right, agree with you on the unconfirmed newbies; they'll get replaced if they don't post in a couple of days.

I'm still really confused why you found eth0s sketchy for not posting tbh given the short timeframe. I kinda feel like you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Like you're conflating 'not being on-site for two hours before the game started' with 'lurking', when they're totally different things. Yes, lurking can be sketchy, but to label eth0s as a potential lurker for not posting after two hours before the game started is just really flimsy reasoning imo, and you used that to push eth0s, and as a springboard to push ofrzh for enabling/encouraging/supporting the anti-town behavior of:

Because as an unqualified statement it both encourages poor town play and also helps lurking mafia avoid pressure.

And say lurking is actually a scumtell (like I said earlier, I kinda disagree with this premise). Why is ofrzh scummy for saying it isn't? Yes, I agree that lurking is anti-town. But why is it *scummy* that he thinks that lurking isn't a scumtell? Why isn't he just town who holds a different opinion on lurking than you?

Am I scummy for thinking that lurking isn't inherently AI?

[skitter30]

@skitter30
However you get around to town reading me is fine. I don't have a preference.

I'm not townreading you right now. I'm not explicitly scumreading you either, but you're definitely not a townread.

The thing I quoted about the image was kinda LAMIST-y (Look At Me I'm So Town) - I felt you were trying to give people a reason to townread you in an artificial-y way. Like you were using the fact that you posted that image as a way to bolster your towniness, and it felt like you were *telling* me to townread you for something kinda NAI and unverifiable, instead of showing me that you're town through your ingame actions. Like you're introducing something kinda irrelevant as a reason to townread you, so it felt like you're looking for towncred and/or are eager for people to townread you. That isn't inherently scummy, but it does make me question your motives.

As for Ofrhz, the misunderstandings later are not related to the one I'm giving him town cred for. He did not bring the first one back up.

Do the later misunderstands affect that read?

At this point three people are saying that lurking is not scummy. Considering that it is three and not two, maybe I'm just wrong about what is good play. But to me the idea that lurking is completely neutral is strange.

Oh, I never said that lurking was good play or pro-town behavior. I just don't think it's *inherently* AI - townies can and do lurk too, for a variety of reasons: they don't find the game interesting, trying to avoid the nk, busy irl, in a timezone that makes it hard to post, etc, etc, etc. Lurking is anti-town, sure. That doesn't mean that it's scummy.

Even so, there are however scummy ways of lurking imo. For example, I would find lurking *just* as a wagon builds up on you to be sketchy. That would likely make me scumread you, especially if you hadn't been lurking before that. I don't think this game has gone on long enough for me to try to differentiate between different types of lurking.

Bad/anti-town behavior isn't quite the same thing as scummy behavior - the point of the game is to try to figure out which is which

so lynching a random non-VT player should be a good thing.)

I mean, I guess theoretically? But in practice at any given moment you don't know who all the non-VT players are (ie if you're town you don't know who scum is), so lynching at random within that group is kinda difficult given that you don't actually know who's in that group.

We don't really want to lynch PRs, which is why we always want to ask people to claim before we lynch. If someone claims PR, we have to decide if the claim is credible and if their behavior supports the claim or not.

[skitter30]

@skitter30
Their misunderstandings have not caused me to change my reads on them.

Why not? If I understand correctly, you're townreading them for dropping an argument after they realized they misunderstood something. But you say that they later started/continued an argument because of misunderstandings, so why doesn't that affect anything?

(also I'm a she btw)

Based on this and other responses I don't find you particularly scummy, not enough to leave my vote overnight.

Getting slight townpings from this (but I wouldn't go so far so as to call this obvtown - 70)

I actually agree with this

I don't really know if doing so will accomplish much; they'll get replaced if they don't post in a couple of days.

I'm getting a pretty strong town vibe from ofrhz.

[skitter30]

@Skitter30 I apologize if I used the wrong pronouns. I'll do my best not to let it happen again.

All's good!

@oxy:

My reads are trending kinda similar to yours, so I'm trying to figure out what's bothering me about them. I guess your confidence this early on is making me a little bit wary. Like confidentally townbinning ruru and orfhz this early is a little weird, and the fact that you don't seem super interested in re-evaluating them is kinda bothering me. It kinda feels to me like you want to check the box of 'finding townreads', and once you've done so, you don't think you need to revisit the read.

Like you seem very eager and try-hard, and like you very much do not want to misstep. I feel like you often say the 'correct' thing, something you think people want to hear, or something that will make you look town. Like the reason you gave for why you want to be a VT.

Or these:

Spoiler:

So at the end of all of that? Null, I guess.

You're a tough egg. Really, I just hope I'm never asked to evaluate you in lylo

.

Now that you're back, I'm interested in starting to form another read.

cum!Oxy would have likely used the original image, had he bothered to make an image at all, since it would give him an excuse to passively wait for his RVS target to show up.

It just matters that I get to engage with you so that I can begin to formulate a read on you

And so on.

Like I'm overall getting the vibe that you're saying these things to demonstrate you're acting in a pro-town fashion. It kinda feels artificial, like you're making sure to include phrases like this so that everyone sees how much thought you're putting into your reads. It feels like you're telling me that you're forming reads, instead of showing me that you are.

All of this together is making me kinda wary on your slot, but I'm still trying to work out if I think these are eager *newb* tells (ie you're eager to play and want to make sure you're doing it right) or *scum* (ie you're looking for towncred so that you don't get lynched) tells; I haven't come to a firm conclusion either way yet.

I do think I'm going to keep my vote on you for now though cuz this is the best lead I have; although I'm not confident on scum!you, it is no longer an RVS vote as I'm getting more scumvibes from you right now than anyone else.

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Also, I have a question for everyone here. If you could choose your role at the beginning of the game, which would you prefer?

VT cuz then I don't have to play around trying to avoid the nk.

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Had a series of really intense and time consuming games through most of 2017 and just needed to unwind from that.

Sorry if TB's newbie contributed to that

But welcome back!

[skitter30]

P-edit @skitter30 It's about time you move away from that RVS vote.
I'm definitely trying hard. Newb? =( The truth hurts.
I'm not actively trying to look scummy (obv), but I don't think I'm focusing on avoiding missteps, either. Hmm.. Will evaluate in postgame.
I'm not interested in reevaluating my two town reads D1. Nope, not happening. Day 2 and onwards? You bet I will.

What are your thoughts on Eth0s?

I just explained that my vote is no longer RVS. It doesn't mean that I'm confident you're scum, but it does mean that you're giving me scummy vibes, and you're the scummiest person I've seen so far. I don't really like that you're kinda trying to brush off my vote by misrepping it as an RVS vote when I just said it wasn't RVS anymore.

I don't think you're actively trying to look scummy, but rather the opposite: that you're going out of your way to look townie, in a way that looks kinda artificial to me.

I feel like it's *waaaaay* too early to be that confident about your townreads given that it's like page 4, and a day into the game. Why wouldn't you try to re-evaluate them this phase?

I don't have significant thoughts on eth0s right now tbh; nothing he's said thus far really feels AI to me yet.

[skitter30]

I'm just glad you're out of RVS.

Hmmm, ok.

I read the following as you calling my vote on you RVS and you telling me to leave RVS by finding a real vote (ie not one on you):

It's about time you move away from that RVS vote

It took you longer than I expected it would have as town.

Me in particular, or a town-player in general?

Have you played elsewhere? And if yes, how long were dayphases there?

[skitter30]

It was ambiguous. You are right about that.
Town in general. I've only read one of your games.
I played a lot of mafia in high school during study hall. Those games weren't very high skill. I've been watching DailyMafia and mafia all stars on twitch for a number of years now, on and off. I've also been reading games on mafiascum, very on and off, for that same period. I've always wanted to play, but I've never had remotely enough time to actually play one. I've read a few games on other sites, those forum mafia championship things they ran (still run?). I've always felt lost and bewildered reading fast day phase games, so I never tried playing.

Out of curiosity, which game did you read?

I guess I'm just a little bit puzzled that you're not interested in re-evaluating reads today - we're still in fairly early stages so I feel like there's a lot of time/room to re-evaluate as things develop. I thought you might be quick to lock in your reads because you might come from a site with faster phases so you try to have firm reads early, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[skitter30]

I don't remember the game. I read it before this one started, so when we started playing, I noticed your name. I remember you (town) getting wrecked by a super lurker/trolly mafia team with not mafia. I also remember having similar reads to you, and then finding out that you had some of the best reads of town. I can search for it if you want?

That would be open 711, stack-the-deck, I think.

The "that took longer than I would have expected as town" originally sounded to me like you were saying what you think *I* in particular would do, so I was trying to see what context, if any, you were referencing.

What do you think of my read on you?

[skitter30]

It seemed like paranoid town working down the wifom rabbit hole. To rephrase 94: He has stated reads that agree with the reads in my head, and he is saying the "correct" (read: pro-town) things. He must be faking it!

There's some sarcasm there. Please don't take offense. IMO, to ignore the possibility of wifom is foolish. To go down the wifom rabbit hole is madness... Game ain't easy =/

Nah, you're fine.

It isn't your reads themselves that I'm having trouble with; more like how quickly and strongly you're forming them and the fact that you're resistant to re-evaluating them today.

And when you say all those pro-town things, it doesn't really feel natural, but more like you think it's the correct thing to say. You're overall coming off super LAMIST-y to me.

Also not sure what to think about the fact that you're being hesitant around reading Scioness Sajj, or that you're being kinda difficult with her but much more open with me.

I low-key wonder if I'm getting buddied by you.

started to think that I had pocketed myself for her while analyzing her read on me.

What does this mean?

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I will say there seems to be a lot of scum hunters in this game which I am not used to, especially in newbie queue. I think this game will be a head scratcher

Getting townpings from this

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I don't really see much usefulness in knowing what Drixx thinks of players capability.

I actually think this is a fairly interesting bit of info tbh. If someone believes someone to be a stronger player, they'll read them differently than if they think they're a weaker player; the perceived capability of a player often affects the read.

[skitter30]

Sorry for multipost... I'm hesitant to really pressure eth0s because he is sick and there is plenty of time in D1 for him to get better first. If people are interested in putting a few votes on Drixx to give him incentive to post, I would be for that.

Again, it's still fairly early day1; I'm not too worried about people not contributing overly much yet. If he hasn't posted much in like a few days irl from now, I'd maybe be down for that.

I think at this point it might be more useful to vote for a scumread than as pressure for people to post; game's moving fairly well along given the size and given the fact that a few slots are relatively absent.

[skitter30]

@Scioness: Is English your first language?

aside, note for self for later: oxy/scioness probably are not a team.

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started to think that I had pocketed myself for her while analyzing her read on me.

I'm getting some really bad gut pings from this but I don't know how to articulate it right now.

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Alright I understnad that, but how is it going to help eth0s solve the game? Is this meta related?

I don't know how he wants to use that info, but I don't think it's an irrelevant question. For me, it would help me figure out if someone's reads are natural - if player A is expecting a high standard of play from player B, who's relatively inexperienced, and scumreading them for not playing up to that standard, I would find that odd, and question that read. Or if player A thinks player B is experienced, but is brushing off scummy things B is doing, I would find that odd. etc, etc, etc.

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I don't like this very much at all. Similar to "wow, that sucks" after a PR gets NKed, it just seems too easy for scum to post about how hard/confusing the game is without contributing much.

Idk, it seemed kinda genuine to me, like he wasn't expecting the game to be this hard. Also he's already said he isn't paying that much attention atm cuz he's sick/busy, so I don't know why he would need to fake-contribute like that at this juncture when he has an excuse for not contributing.

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165 - kinda bleeds town imo

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I believe his thoughts on me are developing he just don't want to share them.

Is it AI if he doesn't share his thoughts on you? And if so, why?

And if you want to lynch him, why aren't you voting him? (For that matter, why aren't you voting at all?)

[skitter30]

I just spent a ridiculously long time going through Oxy v Sajj; it was hard to follow because there was so much talking over each other. From Oxy's side, part of this is understandable because Sajj's writing style is friggin hard to follow.

On the other side, Sajj makes leaping assumptions about what Oxy says and is at points putting words into his mouth. Considering this is a text-based game and figuring out what each person is trying to say is important, I generally think this is suspicious. However, Sajj's defensiveness comes off as genuine. I'm inclined to think this is a massive town v town spat at this point.

So, I noticed this dynamic as well. Namely, Scioness appears to be misreading some of Oxy's posts and is coming to conclusions I don't think he intended. Once I noted that, the next thing to do is to figure out if she's doing that on purpose. From a few of Scioness' posts, I had gotten the vibe that English may not be her first language, which she has since confirmed (@Scioness: your English is quite excellent; I only picked up on it cuz I was looking for it in this context). So, I think a lot of the misreadings/misunderstandings might be stemming from there. I don't think she's doing it maliciously, or is trying to be difficult to understand. I think a lot of this thing comes down to the two of them not communicating with each other well, and that they are talking past each other and are just in general misreading the other's posts.

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@mod:

btw, you have eth0s both voting and not-voting.

Fixed.

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It feels to me like Sajj is playing with the goal of not being scum read rather than playing with the goal of finding scum. Does anyone else see it that way?

Not particularly? Where are you getting that from?

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2. I don't think not sharing thoughts has to be AI, but the manner he goes about it bothers me. Example in spoiler in 172, which he also ignored and went stright to scumreading me and he has found 170 to have a vote on me, but it seems like an excuse for a vote more than a reason.

Is it accurate to say that you think he's deliberately ignoring you? IE that you don't inherently have a problem with someone not sharing thoughts, but you dislike it when people avoid direct questions, which is what you think he's doing?

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Are you implying something here?

That's just a phrase I use when I think a post (and/or player) is super townie and just comes from like an obviously town mindset.
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If it wasn't clear, I'm saying I think she told us her scum game plan, and then she executed it.

I don't understand the conclusion you're drawing. Specifically, what's her scum plan?

Nm, I read 191. No, I'm not particularly getting that vibe. I think that a lot of her posts are indicating frustration with you and that she'd like to remove you from the game because of that (hence vig shot), not that she wants to remove you because she necessarily finds you scummy. In that context, I actually find the fact that she hasn't voted you to be kinda townie cuz it means she's trying to figure out if her read on you stems from frustration or from genuinely finding you scummy.

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196 - point 1 feels kinda reachy to me?

[skitter30]

I feel like ever since I initially FoS'd her,

Sajj has spent the vast amount of her posts trying to get me to town read her,

and then getting frustrated when I wasn't. I get that town wants to be town read, but I feel like town's focus should be on finding scum. I feel like Sajj is a good enough player and smart enough person to expect this focus from town!Sajj.

Can you show me specifically where you think the bolded is happening?

Also, yes, town's focus should be on finding scum, but I kinda think that town ought to try to get townread too - it can take you out of the lynch pool and thus make it easier for everyone else to find scum by PoE.

I also kinda feel like you're expecting a lot from her given that it's literally her second game. Also since you said you don't think you can meta her, and she doesn't even have any towngames to look at in comparison, I'm not really sure why you think town!her would not behave this way.

It is reachy, but I'm not telepathic. Maybe she did it subconsciously because she knows that it's a good scum strategy and as such she found it an easy way to throw some shade that might stick. Maybe she's running on putting on airs after being praised for her successful scum game in her previous game, and thought she was invincible. Maybe it was something else. Let's ask her in postgame.

Like I'm not asking you to be telepathic, but you kinda have to give me a plausible and reasonable explanation for why she, as scum, would publicly telegraph her plan of setting you up as a mislynch if you want me to entertain the idea.

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205 - I'm an applied math major (and I'm taking game theory next quarter )

Game related - This entire post kinda feels kinda :/ to me. Like you don't outright call Sajj scum, but indicate you find her sketchy for a variety of reasons. But since you don't really follow that up by trying to sort her by talking to her or by laying down a vote, I kinda feel like you're just making a general observation that you find her sketchy without doing anything about it. It makes me feel like you're comfortable finding her vaguely sketchy without trying to sort her, which feels kinda shade-y to me.

[skitter30]

I don't have a people with people wanting to keep information to themselves. But when they wiggle around it it makes me think that they don't want to refuse outright becuase they are concerned with it appearing as scummy. They are more concerned with how they will be precived by players than actually solving the game.

The newst posts from Oxy make me thing he is tunneling me and really want to be right. Ie he had a gut read and thinks he has found a scum slip and is building a case from this POV. I don't think he has tried to actually sort me in this game and he is appealing to the crowd by adding onto his gut read. The case is weak. Too weak for scum on day 1 I believe. I won't be voting him.

I don't really understand why you don't think his posts come from scum. Can you explain again?

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Hmm... I think my post is calling her difficult to read, not particularly scummy. It's interesting that you read it that way. Do you want me to think she is scummy? Would you like to see a wagon on her? If I took your post as motivation to vote, even though you don't find her scummy, would you be held accountable for the wagon?

I don't particularly want you to find her scummy. I do want you to come to some sort of a stance, and if you can't, at least try to sort her, which I don't really see you doing. You seem fine settling for calling her hard to read and finding her posting style affected, without doing much about it.

I don't really think I'd be accountable for your vote on her. And even if I was, I'm not sure why I'd then be accountable for the entire wagon?

She's been under pressure all game, but it hasn't helped me develop a read. Personally I would lynch her only as a last resort if we don't accomplish anything before then. And since we have a lot of posts on Oxy vs Sajj, I would be much more interested in seeing reactions from someone else at this point. Like you!

OK, if scioness is a last resort, who would you feel more comfortable lynching? And like I feel like I've been sharing my reactions as I've had them. (There's one or two things I've neglected to follow up on cuz I want to see them develop naturally.) And if there's something in particular you want me to address, lmk.

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Welp, that's what I get for not reading the game. As I've stated previously, I read your ISO, I read the PT, and I read some post game comments. I also looked at the first post and it has you listed as still alive. so I figured you had won. I didn't actually read the game itself. fine. you lost the game. Everyone still thinks you did a great job and that you're competent scum.

I feel like you want to find her scummy.

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I believe that Oxy vs. Sajj is a TvT. There's a lot of indicators there of that. There's an off chance that they are the scum team and putting on quite a lot of theatre, but generally it's crazy risky to go to the extent they have, and I just don't get that vibe.

Why not SvT?

Also I'm particularly interested in your finding ofrzh an early candidate for scum cuz I think he's been quite townie.

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Ok guys its really late here in Chile and I tried to read everything but somewhere in between became really difficult, and I already convinced myself that Oxy is scum and that his partner is either ruru or ofrhz because of the early towncred to both. A lot of scum motivation there, gives free credit to his partner by giving credit to two players instead of one. The towncred he gives to both is so random I really can't see any other explanation. Also his 1v1 with Scioness seems like building the first mislynch of the game, and he's doing quite good, but nah, you're scum.
VOTE: Oxy

Welcome!

Yes, I also don't really like his townreads on either of them since they both had some rather flimsy reasoning and he's so resistant to re-evaluating the reads there.

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If Ofrhz is scum, then Oxy almost certainly is. That was a pretty blatant post connecting them at the hip. I suppose it could be an intentional fake out... but that would require a tremendous level of self awareness to realize how he would react if he was paired with Oxy and someone pointed it out and then actually react exactly that way and hit all the right notes.

Which post?

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260 - ruru, what's your opinion on oxy? I kinda feel like you're avoiding taking a stance on the 1v1, and this vote feels really weirdly timed to me given the current gamestate. I almost feel like you're trying to avoid the issue of the day or move the gamestate elsewhere.

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BUT! The thing is, you've been acting scummy either if you're Oxy's partner or not. What I mean is, if we lynch Oxy today and he flips scum, both you and ofrhz would be in my lynchpool for D2; but if Oxy flipped town, you would still be on my lynchpool and I would townlean ofrhz.

If ruru is scummy independantly of oxy, why are you voting oxy and not ruru? I get that oxy's flip will help you read ofrhz, but you still think that ruru is scummy irregardless of oxy's flip.

[skitter30]

If we lynch Oxy and he's scum, ofrhz is his partner; if Oxy flips town, ofrhz is prob!town. If we lynch ruru and she's scum, nice! But who's her partner? Could be Oxy; if she's town, back to plan A with Oxy and ofrhz being partners in crime.

From my point of view (as biased as I am with this trio), lynching Oxy is the best way to go.

I kinda feel like on day1 we should just be aiming to find scum instead of team-hunting on pre-flip associatives.

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I don't like the phrasing of this at all. First, it implies the same sort of early read on someone that he calls me scummy for. Second, "to convince" is a strange verb to use when describing how one comes to have a read. Scummy posts "ping" a town's radar. Town "notices", "picks up on", "catches", and "finds" scum clues. All of these describe the instantaneous nature of realization. Scum, knowing that they must deceive others, must "convince" themselves that others will find an argument believable.

Tbf, he did say English isn't his first language; I wouldn't really weigh word-choice for him as much as I would with native-English speakers.

@pin: did you read the game before you replaced in? What I'm getting at is *when* did you convince yourself oxy was scum - before you replaced in, or after?

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I know Sajj has posed questions for me, but I'm just going to ignore them for the moment.

My town reads remain unconvinced that she is scum, and that is enough to give me pause at this point.

Don't misunderstand me. Sajj is still my #1 lynch today. I just don't think it's pro-town to continue going back and forth with her right now.

Bolded - still feels super LAMIST to me :/

Thing is that you're actually following through on the LAMIST things you're spouting, and are *acting* in a pro-town fashion instead of just saying that you are. By this I mean that you're dropping the Scioness argument cuz you're townreads don't think she's scum, which is a mindset I definitely understand, and an argument that I don't think comes naturally to scum. I kinda feel like scum here would continue building the scioness thing given that a bunch of people are supporting you or are still undecided; there's still room for a scioness lynch even though me/orfhz/drixx aren't super into it.

I think I want to look at some other people for now.

VOTE: ruru

I dislike that your content has dropped off, and I feel like you're avoiding taking a stance on the scioness/oxy thing, and like you aren't really trying to sort either of them. Also I don't really like the eth0s vote.

Also I think the wagon is a nice-ish wagon.

L-2 I do believe.

------------

@oxy: Can you explain your read on me please?

he is kissing up to you because of respect he has gained from that game he has read.

I'm kinda getting some buddying/pocketing vibes from him doing this tbh.

------------

Basically your interactions with him is giving him the option to create content so he can get towncred from everyone else.

Thing is I kinda feel like oxy's interacting with everyone, not just ofrzh, that way. I don't really feel like those posts particularly point to a coordinated oxy/ofrzh team.

--> Oxy continues to townread ruru and me throughout game

This however I find troubling because he's resistant to re-evaluating these reads and I don't really get why.

-----------

Heya North!

[skitter30]

@pin: did you read the game before you replaced in? What I'm getting at is *when* did you convince yourself oxy was scum - before you replaced in, or after?

I'm a little lost, why is this relevant? Yes, I read the thread before replacing in and the dynamic trio pinged me, but I thought that my Oxy/ofrhz was a really long shot since there was two players missing. Now that I know my alignment, the possibilities grew. Don't get me wrong, it's still a long shot, but is the best I can do with the information provided at this point.

At the time you developed the read, you were effectively town since you didn't know anyone's alignment, including your own. If you're scum you didn't have to fabricate the read out of whole cloth - you might just be building on a read you developed before you knew anyone's aligments.

It kinda devalues any towncred I was giving you for this push since I can't determine if your read is coming from town or someone who was uninformed-like-town when they developed the read.

---------

I'm still working on that ISO for you, Skitter. In the meantime, this is for Pinturicchio.

You don't have to do a whole ISO on me or whatever; a sentence or two works.

--------

I'll tell you what I definitely don't want, and that is for a Ruru lynch to happen before we hear a lot more from Eth0s, Drixx, NSG, and Pinturicchio.

Does this seem super likely to happen to you atm?

- not in for a ruru lynch or putting her on L-1 so I'm hopping off the wagon

OK, why?

--------

one thing i will say from doing a thread search is that it's interesting how nobody seems to have mentioned my slot beforehand. i really don't know what it means yet, if anything. if i had to guess i'd say it might cast the SEs/IC in a more suspicious light, but that's just speculation.

Your slot is a newbie-slot that site-flaked before they even confirmed their alignment. Not really sure what you're expecting people to read into that?

[skitter30]

i didn't expect people to "read into it", it's just the fact that my slot seemed to have just been ignored, and it was 4 whole days before it was replaced. it's just strange to me – i would have expected at least a few more mentions than i've found. my baseless theory is that the more experienced players who perhaps should have called for it to be replaced or prodded earlier didn't because an empty slot benefits them as scum, but like i said – just speculation.

I think assemble is a pretty good mod and I trust him to handle prods and replacements in a timely and responsible fashion without me reminding him about it, as he has.

-------------

My mind didn't really change, I had a pressure vote on her. It gave me some answers I was looking for and that's it.

OK, and what's your current read on her slot?

-------------

304 more than skitter, feels like people are coming around to voting her and no reason to put her into claiming theritory just yet.

Ofrzh wasn't wagoning her there and I kinda feel like if people unvote every time a wagon gets to L-2 we'll never get anywhere. Also my L-2 vote wasn't exactly an indication that it was time for her to claim.

-------------

316 - fairly decent analysis of my towngame lolol. Yeah, I can't really fake this posting style naturally; t'was a really big eyeopener when someone pointed that out to me for the first time and gave that as a reason for townreading me.

You had a lot of hollow content early where you explained things like why someone might lurk, etc. I was looking for them to die down as we got rolling, and they have. +town points

Cuz it's a newbie game and I wanted to indicate what I think good practice is wrt things like lurking and using activity tells in a general sense. Trying to be a good example here lol.

I will say that I've only ever been nk'd like twice on site so idk if me being alive day 3 is necessarily AI (I've spent a long time trying to figure out what 'not-being dead day3 despite obvtowning' signifies cuz it seems to happen to me a lot; at this point I have a pretty good idea as to what that implies for the gamestate, and where I ought to be looking for scum in that situation).

-------------

I think it was decently likely in a world where Sajj doesn't unvote and I start critically evaluating Ruru. You and Ofrhs have this under control. I'll be watching and cheering you on from the sidelines.

I mean, if eth0s, drixx, and NSG haven't caught up, ruru isn't lynching herself, and there's only three votes on her, I'm not really sure where the lolhammer would come from even?

Like I don't really get the caution about L-2 on day1 given that this isn't exactly a lol-hammer-y type game.

-------------

Why does sorting SS matter more to you than sorting any of the other players? She's not the most suspicious to me.

Cuz the 1v1 between scioness and oxy has been a major part of the game and I kinda expect everyone to take a stance on it; there's certainly enough content to do so. You're just like avoiding it and almost trying to distract from it, which I'm finding really weird. Like you're just settling for calling scioness hard to read and not doing anything about trying to sort her.

I meant reactions to pressure, not to the game; you haven't been under pressure at all this game and that alone makes me slightly suspicious.

OK, why is that suspicious?

Yes, I am. I feel like the 1v1 is not the most interesting topic. I think it is likely a TvT because I think Oxy is pretty towny and SS is something like 3/4ths town. And if SS is scum, I think it will be easier to find out through game developments than by spending all of day 1 on her. Also on a personal level I'm not having that much fun reading so much of what feels more like Oxy and SS arguing about nothing and less like deduction (is day 1 always like this when there's a 2 week deadline?).

Yeah, I agree that the 1v1 wasn't particularly interesting and that it was a slog to read-through, and I can understand why you might not have read all of it. *However* I don't really like that you're not doing much to try to sort scioness. (oxy you've come to a conlusion on). Like you're responding to questions she has for you, but you don't really seem to be trying to interact with her outside of that. Now that I think about it, you seem to be playing a pretty reactive game. (ie as opposed to proactive)

------------

Could you explain this a bit more? Does scum have to act scummy before or during lylo?

He's saying that my posting style is probably hard for me to fabricate as scum so if I'm not posting like this at endgame there's a fairly decent chance I'm scum. Like if I need to vote somewhere to promote a scum wincon but the vote is out-of-place given the posting style I've had thus far.

[skitter30]

Where do you want to get with five people playing the game right now? I feel like I have answered that in 351.

It's not that I particularly want to go somewhere so much as I feel like people are being overly cautious of L-2, and that since wagons are being unvoted kinda prematurely imo, the target might not feel pressured to actually respond to them.

---------------

I did read it, I just didn't enjoy it. I'm confused that you think I could be trying to distract from SS vs. Oxy, but also that I'm playing reactively rather than proactively.

Do you think moving on from SS vs. Oxy is pro-town or anti-town?

I guess it's cuz besides for your eth0s vote, you're mostly just responding to people say about/to you, and you just seem super cautious. Idk. I kinda feel like your eth0s vote was a distraction and that you're playing reactively otherwise. I don't know how to explain it better right now. Like it feels like an empty vote that was kinda irrelevant to the current gamestate, and was kinda a pressure vote, and just kinda felt like you were using it to avoid taking a stance. Idk, that vote gives me bad vibes.

I think scionesss/oxy needs to come to some sort of conclusion cuz otherwise I think we're just going to continue to circle-back to it repeatedly if it doesn't get resolved, as is happening right now.

---------------

Oxy - since I have made my post with reasoning on my townlean he has been proving me wrong. If one is scum so is the other imo.

I still don't really understand the connection between scum!oxy and scum!ofrzh.

Why has oxy no longer been acting townie in your opinion?

---------------

I don’t really understand the eth0s votes, is he more likely to make this game a priority if we wagon him? Also are you guys comfortable with policy lynches?

This basically. If he's busy irl I don't really think wagoning him will make him do much. Like I don't think a vote on him will change his behavior so I don't see the point in voting him. I do think that if he thinks he can't participate he ought to replace out.

I don't really find him scummy right now. Lurk-y, yes, but I don't think that inherently AI for him right now; I think it's just a real-life thing.

--------------

"Drixx has no reason to lurk" is too definite.

It's like she knows that Drixx has no reason to lurk because scum lurks and Drixx isn't scum.

On the other hand, "eth0s is inactive in both of his games." f

eels like cornered scum who checked his activity because she's frustrated he isn't here to help.

Again, it could be the opposite. I will say, if Sajj flips scum as I expect her to, her partner is probably in these two. There's also like a 1/100 chance that her partner is Ruru, which is why she might have been overly cautious of that wagon. I don't subscribe to this theory, though. I don't really subscribe to any of these pre-flip.

Idk, both of the bolded feel kinda stretchy/reachy to me; I don't really feel like either of these statements are particularly conclusive tbh.

I am currently enteratining the idea of ruru/scioness, but I'm not putting that much stock in pre-flips cuz I know I if I focus on them too much they can lead me very much astray. I'd rather stick with individual scumminess for today, and work with associatives once we have flips.

--------------

I also called it because I want to swag in post game if I'm right.

I don't really think this post comes from scum.

--------------

Drixx, can you explain the ofrzh scumread? Cuz I really, really don't see it right now.

--------------

I'll do the next page in another post in a bit.

[skitter30]

Why are you trying to control the narrative like that?

Idk if he's exactly trying to control the narrative so much as trying to understand what you're referring to.

Like I'm having a lot of trouble seeing the scum!orfzh -> scum!oxy logic. I think the other way around makes a lot more sense. (Or, at least, scum!oxy make one of {scum!ruru/scum!orgzh} more likely)

Interesting that you want to narrow the options down to a post on the first page or one of a series of posts you made preceding my post.

Also I don't really understand the implication you're making here. Why is this significant?

Also I kinda feel like this post is lacking a vote given how you're accusing ofrzh of 'controlling a narrative' and that he/oxy are giving you 'heebie jeebies'.

Now that I think of it ... why haven't you voted at all yet?

I'm starting to get some similar vibes to that newbie we played, specifically the unsubstantiated accusations that don't really make much sense in context. (ie I'm referencing the HS-posting-style thing there; here I'm referring to you accusing ofrzh of 'controlling a narrative' when I don't really see much evidence of that happening.)

---------------------

Okay, team town (Ruru, Ofrhz, Skitter30), I think it would behoove us to coordinate our pressure. My preference for targets would be, in order, Eth0s, Drixx, Sajj, NSG. That's not in order of scumminess, but rather of priority. I would be happy with any of them! Ofrhz seems to prefer drixx. Ruru and I are already on Eth0s.

I still don't really feel town!ruru right now, but I'm kinda interested in pressuring drixx atm. He makes a really, really vague post, fails to explain it, and then accuses ofrzh of 'trying to control the narrative' when he tried to get clarification.

VOTE: Drixx

Let's see where this goes

Plan? I think we should put them at L-1, give them 24 hours to post something that isn't garbage, and then hammer them if they don't. End of day is not really all that far away, and right now I'm worried that we're going to disperse to our own corners and sit on our thumbs.

Idk if I want to commit to hammering someone right now.

That reminds me:

@mod:

v/la Friday - Monday

----------------

Here's something funny: the last time I ate pesto I got intoxicated; this was on February of 2017. I said I would never eat pesto again because I started to feel nauseous everytime I smelled it. Today I ate pesto again, and I got intoxicated yet again... Listen to your body, kids.

Feel better

When you're feeling up to it, I would like to hear more about your eth0s read.

---------------

This does make more sense to me on why you're sussing me. I still wonder if scum!skitter30 wants town!SS mislynched, but there wasn't enough support, so this would be another reason to want to flip SS on day 2. But that wouldn't really be consistent with your earlier posts where you seemed to indicate that Oxy's case on SS was too weak.

Yeah, specifically I was wondering if scum!ruru might be trying to avoid the 1v1 cuz your partner was involved and you didn't really know how to react to it, which is why you voted elsewhere; that was the best explanation I came up with for the bad vibes I had from the vote. But yeah as I wrote the bit that you quoted I realized that this logic is pre-flip based which I know isn't such a good thing for me to base reads on day1. I think a lot of the scummy vibes I got from you was cuz that vote. I don't know if I find you scummy independantly of that; I think that some of the things that I'm reading as scummy (the reactiveness) might be a playstyle/personality thing. At the same time, I don't really find you townie either though; I think I need to spend some more time coming to sort you.

I definitely do want to note that if one of {scioness/oxy} flip scum, your eth0s vote was partner-indicative to me.

I don't think that ruru/eth0s is a thing. (I was thinking this earlier at some point but I don't remember if I noted it)

I mean the game is hard, I'm not always confident in what I'm doing, I don't know what else to say really

This kinda pefectly sums up how I feel about mafia in general lol. And somehow I still enjoy it

[skitter30]

Why do you think scioness/ruru is unlikely?


Idk. I played with him the once ~a year ago, and it seemed like he wasn't able to and/or couldn't post super frequently then either; I waited for like a day phase for him to pose anything useful cuz iirc he was on medical sem-v/la for like the whole phase. That game he was super obviously scummy and then disappeared and was doing the active-lurking thing a bit; I think he was kinda waiting/hoping for town to get distracted by some other shiny object. (also I think he wanted to use a meta defense and was waiting for another game to end to do so).

I don't think he's been super obviously scummy here and I don't want him to be lynched before he has a chance to talk. If someone put him at L-1 and someone gave intent to hammer before he said anything I'd unvote cuz I'm not really convinced he's scum atm and I definitely want to hear from him before he gets lynched.

p-edit:

Yeah I'm going to unvote if someone posts intent. I don't want him to be lynched before he can talk.

Also I'm kinda suspicous of how fast this wagon formed with like no resistance.

I also kinda feel like oxy almost wants this hammer to happen?

Actually UNVOTE:

[skitter30]

I need to think about oxy's approach to this wagon some more; it's making me a little bit nervous actually.

[skitter30]

P.S. @Pinturicchio I'm not giving you a team jersey yet, but you can drop the hammer if/when it becomes appropriate.

This feels like you're setting up Pin to want to hammer. And if you're scum it's kinda pocket-y, trying to get him to want to join the CoolKidsTownBloc (TM). And it worked too:

and obviously, I want my jersey please...

--------------

And at some point we may have to lynch someone for lack of activity. Otherwise we're going to sit here for another week waiting for posts that won't come.

I don't get why you're pushing for a lurker lynch instead of a lynch on your scumread - like you dropped the scioness thing to support the drixx thing.

-------------

I don't like ruru's empty vote given that she hasn't indicated a scumread of him anywhere; she indicates that she doesn't understand his post but that doesn't appear to have developed into an actual scumread from her ISO.

-----------

Alternatively, anyone in my town circle could just lead this game to victory and I'll play good soldier. Just don't try to lynch inside the town circle til tomorrow. The time for us to work together is now.

This feels pocket-y and kinda like you're trying to insinuate yourself into a townbloc.

-----------

I feel like if I were scum this game, and neither my partner nor I were in {Oxy, Ofhrz, Ruru, Skitter30} my game plan would be to stall this day out as long as possible and make town scramble for a good lynch at the deadline. I think the counter play for this is to be just crazy enough to hammer 7 days before the deadline. I think if we're pressuring town!drixx he is experienced enough to find a way to show us town rather than get mislynched for inactivity in his IC game.

And what if scum is in this group?

I don't get why you think rushing a wagon on a lurker will remedy this problem.

---------------

skitter I love the paranoia, you're playing super town, but why in the world would scum!Drixx give us anything substantial if he knows this wagon is just going to go away.

The wagon didn't exactly go away, and it's not like I said I wouldn't vote him - I'm not comfortable keeping my vote on him now when I kinda feel like you're pressuring people to vote him before he has a chance to talk, when you seem to be wagoning him for lurker-ness, and not necessarily scumminess.

[skitter30]

Like I don't get why you've imposed a 24-hour deadline in which drixx has to speak or else he gets lynched when that cuts the day off short, before eth0s (and/or his replacement) and nsg do anything.

[skitter30]

well, I think one of a few things will happen

1) Drixx shows us why experience matters, convincing us that he is town and breaking this beautiful town circle to shreds
2) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive, and his partner does their best to break this beautiful town circle apart (chainsaw argument)
3) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive and his partner makes a case on someone outside the town circle but in our null/scum reads, again trying to break up this town circle
4) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive and his partner stays inactive and we lynch scum

there are probably some other possibilities. It's a dynamic game. Trust your instincts. If one of those scum teams exist, this is where they will start to make mistakes.

Also like this post seems to be emphasizing a town-bloc and how a drixx wagon might cause it to fall apart -> like the emphasis is on a townbloc and not drixx almost. Like even the town!drixx case has this negative outcome of the town bloc breaking apart; the implication seems to be we don't want that to happen. I kinda almost feel like you've been pushing this wagon in an attempt to forge together a townbloc, with yourself in it. I don't really feel like it formed naturally.

My instincts are telling me that something is wrong here.

[skitter30]

they could also lol hammer him for town cred, but you lynch the lol hammer-er regardless of drixx's flipp just on policy.

And like if you're scum this is setting up tomorrow's lynch irregardless of what drixx flips.

I don't like the drixx wagon anymore.

[skitter30]

--Why would scum!oxy need to pocket someone who has a hard town read on him?

To make sure that pin keeps that townread. Also I didn't have a chance to check for a pattern of pocketing, but it's possible that pin *has* the townread because of pocketing in the first place.

-------

--ruru is being a team player and it is absolutely pro town vote. Also, I like to think that my asking her helped.

Yes I think that your asking helped but I don't really feel like it was a pro-town vote.

-------

--What if scum is in this group? Will that change town!drixx's ability to express town?

The reasoning for the wagon was that if scum is outside of the group they will try to stall out the day in an attempt to force town to compromise on a bad wagon, and that the counter-tactic was to lynch early. -> I don't get why lynching early is necessarily a countermeasure, and I don't get how this would help if scum was in this group. Like I feel like this logic is kinda wonky.

------

--yeah I'm proud of the town bloc. My entire game plan from the start has been to find town, and then lynch scum with my town breathren.

It doesn't feel natural to me and it's making me paranoid that you made a townbloc so that you could make sure you're in it. And I feel like you're setting up pin to want to join it.

------

no it isn't skitter, it only sets up the lynch if someone lol-hammers! That's just standard play?????

Yes and I don't really think auto-lynching someone who lolhammers irregardless of the flip is a good idea.

------

Do you agree that we need more posts from eth0s/Drixx/NSG? Is there a better way of doing it?

I don't get how threatening to lynch drixx if he doesn't post in 24-hours will help get posts out of NSG/eth0s, especially if the day ends.

------

I am now feeling kinda paranoid of oxy. Some of his posts do read kinda genuine to me though so I'm kinda wondering if I want to scumread him for having a different playstyle.

--I'm not pushing any lynch. I'm saying that L-1 is not something to be scared of, and the possibility of a lol hammer is not something to be scared of either because it gets us a scum lynched either way. If you want to lynch scioness sajj I am 100% for that. 100%. I'm not pushing that because you all know where I stand on her, and NONE of my THREE town reads seem to have any interest in that lynch.

Like this one feels super town to me.

But the pocketing / town-bloc stuff feels really fake/contrived/artificial

I think I need to sleep on this.

[skitter30]

I answered you on this one too quickly (im too riled to sleep right now)
This was in response to a question by Ruru. She asked what would happen if the scum team was Drixx +eth0s/NSG. That's why, by definition, this assumes all 4 of us are town.

Right, but the implication of your post is that town!drixx is a bad thing:

1) Drixx shows us why experience matters, convincing us that he is town and

breaking this beautiful town circle to shreds

(Um, sorry for riling you up so much that you couldn't sleep. And sorry for not responding last night; I feel asleep.)

---------------

The counter-play I suggested was to be WILLING to lynch early, not to lynch early. Big difference.

You said this:

Plan? I think we should put them at L-1, give them 24 hours to post something that isn't garbage, and then hammer them if they don't. End of day is not really all that far away, and right now I'm worried that we're going to disperse to our own corners and sit on our thumbs

Which to me reads like you want to hammer someone if they don't post content in a 24 hour deadline. I don't really think that prioritizng lurkers over scummy players is a good idea.

-----------

@Eth0s, if you don't think you can participate I do think that replacing out might be a good idea at this time.

-------------

I was somewhat surprised, though. I laid out exactly what I wanted to do, and then the moment I did it she was like, "woah! Where did this come from?" and I'm like

Cuz I thought we were still talking about it and I don't really think that threatening to hammer someone if they don't post in a 24 hour window is a good idea. I was not expecting the wagon to go to L-1 that fast, and I don't' really want to be on this wagon right now.

p-edit: I haven't read the sajj posts yet

[skitter30]

The most frustrating part of this game for me is reading the stream of bullshit coming from Sajj, and having none of my town reads see it.

That's not meant to be an insult, by the way. It's excellent bullshit, and I'm impressed. It's still bullshit, though.

OK I read the posts and I don't get why you're characterizing them as bs? I don't necessarily agree with her pov but they don't particularly seem fabricated to me.

[skitter30]

@scioness, take your time

--------------

I've never had the thought that town!drixx is a "bad thing." Bad for whom/what? There must be a miscommunication somewhere.

1) Drixx shows us why experience matters, convincing us that he is town and

breaking this beautiful town circle to shreds

Town!drixx leads to a 'beautiful' townbloc 'breaking to shreds'. The connotation is that this is a bad thing. (ie something beautiful has been destroyed). I don't know why you're framing it this way and I really see a connection between 'town!drixx posting townie things' and 'townbloc getting destroyed'.

-----------

and more saying that "In the absence of quality town content and in the face of someone else's stated intent to hammer, I won't unvote."

Spoiler: spoilered for length

Yes, and I don't feel comfortable staying on an L-1 wagon and enabling the possible hammer of someone I don't particularly scumread. (I don't townread him either, but I don't really scumread him. I more ????? him and I need him to post more to come to a conclusion).

Like you're saying 'hey, let's put someone at L-1 and give a 24-hour ultimatum for someone to post town content, and if not we'll hammer them.' I don't have a problem saying that if people post non-town content (ie scummy) content, we'll hammer them. I do have a problem hammering someone with a *lack* of content when it isn't necessarily AI and it could just be a real life thing. Do I think it's pro-town if people lurk? No. But I don't think it's *scummy* either. I don't want to enable you to let someone get hammered if I don't really scumread them.

Like I feel like you're conflating 'not posting' and 'posting scummy things' and grouping the two in the same category and treating them the same when I feel like they're totally different. One I'm cool with enabling a hammer on, the other I'm not.

Like you're penalizing people for not proving that they're townie. I'm saying that I only want to lynch people who have actually acted scummy, regardless of how townie they've behaved. And these two things aren't quite the same.

Like you've given a 24 hour deadline - what if he just doesn't visit the thread during that period and he gets hammered once the time limit is up? Like you're fundamentally making the assumption that he'll actually see it and then choose whether or not to respond and I don't know if that's a valid assumption.

This feels kinda predatory on lurkers and pushing for an easy lynch tbh.

(I also feel like I've had this exact argument elsewhere and the person I was arguing with was indeed scum looking to score an easy lynch on a lurker, so this isn't exactly encouraging me as to your alignment)

---------------

At her most townie, Sajj is doing superficial scumhunting. At her most scummy, Sajj is throwing vague shade around the room with little to no analysis of how she reached her conclusions. In the middle of those extremes she is adding to game confusion with answers to wrong questions and other hollow content.

I for the most part understand her thought process. I don't know if I agree with it but I never really got the vibe that she's fabricating things tbh.

I think the 'answering wrong questions' thing is indicative of not being a native English speaker, not of her alignment - it's pretty apparent that she's answering the question she thought was asked, and that she's getting annoyed at people for not reading her posts the way she thought she wrote them.

e.g., When Ruru, myself (and I'm sure others) were looking at Eth0s recent post and thinking, WTF???, Sajj was like, "oh yeah I think that's eth0s."

I read that post and assumed it was eth0s's promised catch-up that he didn't finish for whatever reason. It wasn't a wtf-y post to me, and I don't get why not having that reaction is scummy and exhibits a 'lack of town curiosity'.

Like I feel like calling the whole post bs without specifying why you think that is kinda shading.

------------

@skitter, assuming nothing else in the game changed, would you have felt more comfortable with this wagon if it dragged out over 3 days versus 3 hours?

Not really; see the spoiler above for why I don't really like it right now.

tldr: I feel like oxy wants to hammer people if they lurk and I don't really feel comfortable doing that; I didn't realize that he would pile on my vote and got other people to join the wagon with the intent of hammering if he doesn't post if I voted there, and I don't want to enable a hammer on a lurker when I feel like we should be lynching scum and not lurkers.

Basically I was cool with my vote as a pressure vote but I don't want it to lead to a hammer before drixx posts because I don't have a read on him (and I feel ike imposing a 24-hour deadline could lead to that happening if he doesn't post in that timeframe) so I left the wagon.

[skitter30]

Again, this is in the context of a hypothetical question from Ruru, the premise of which is that Drixx is scum, and that all four of us, you, me, ofhrz, and ruru, are town. If scum!drixx convinced town!us that he was town, and in the process made us more suspicious of one another, that would be a bad thing. This is not a post saying what I believe the results of a drixx wagon will be in this game. It is an answer to a hypothetical question that presupposes both his alignment and our alignments.

I'm still not sure if I get what you're trying to say. Are you saying that if drixx is scum but convinces people he's town and enters the townbloc, the townbloc will be destroyed cuz scum infiltrated it?

I read that whole thing as you saying drixx was town.

-----------

1. Town reads don't agree = they are wrong. So instead of actually making better case on me he went into buddying you and every now and then just posting how scummy I am without even providing what he is referring to.

He just makes sure you don't forget how scummy I am.

2. This reads to me that he refuses to re-evaluate. I highly doubt he ever wanted to re-evaluate or consider anything I wrote from town!sajj perspective because:

Tbh the bolded I actually understand - if I feel like I find obvscum but I can't get people to agree with me I'll stop pushing it but make sure to mention it at every oppurtunity to make sure that people don't forget so that they'll eventually come around.

I do feel buddied and I don't really like that he's just calling your posts bs without explaining why he thinks that though. It reads as generally shading to me.

I don't remember him trying to convince you or get into a convo why you don't find those things suspicious were he had me as obvscum on me, I don't remember him discussing it with anybody)

Yes I kinda agree with this - once I've said I don't agree he's kinda dropped it and isn't really trying to explain his POV that much to try to convince me otherwise, but is instead just kinda settling for calling you scummy and telling me because I don't agree he won't bother explaining - like maybe I'd agree if he'd explain.

@oxy: Can you just give like a tldr case on sajj? It doesn't have to be like a novel with full-on quotes and everything; you can just give a sentence or two explaining the generally scummy behavior you're seeing from her.

So he is either extremly confident he is right and I see no reason for town!oxy to be so confident especially when he subscribes to the paranoia theory.

Yes, I've said this before; I don't' understand why he's so confident on his reads and why he's so resistant to reconsidering them today.

He keeps skitter in high regard because her reads were good and they also covered with his. What happens when her reads don't cover with hers? They make him pause, not reconsider if he is right. Just stop his case he so strongly believes in. He just has to keep telling skitter how towny and a good player she is and at some point she will start listening to him. In the meantime he can try to lynch a lurker. That's scum trying to presuade another player not town resonating with someone.

Huh. Yeah I can kinda see this happening. He kinda did it last night when I get paranoid of the drixx wagon and his immediate response was to tell me how townie I was and try to talk me into staying on the wagon.

Also I really think he's got pin pocketed.

He can't look for a partner in his town team so yeah. But why in the first place would he look for my partner in bearly active people instead of pushing a lynch on me. He is sure I'm scum, but he backed off as soon as he saw townteam isn't going to follow. He apparently cares more about his townteam comfort than solving and winning the game

Yeah I'm still not really understanding why he's focusing on the drixx/eth0s/nsg group instead of trying to convince his townreads that you're scum. Like I feel like he gave up on pushing you so he's just going for the easy lurker lynch instead.

474 - kinda wifom-y though.

I'll get to the next page in a bit.

[skitter30]

I just couldn't resist. It's so tempting to argue with you ;P

Instead of getting into another 1v1 with her can you just give a tldr case addressed to everyone else?

477 and 479 are super townie posts tbh. I don't want to lynch scioness today. I'm now interested in sorting oxy cuz I'm not really liking the townbloc thing or the buddying me thing or the shading-scioness-and-calling-her-scum-without-substantiating-it thing or the pushing-a-lynch-on-a-lurker-instead-of-trying-to-convince-your-townreads-of-your-scumread thing.

485 - I also kinda think telling people not to townread you for those posts is kinda townie?

-------------

I find it somewhat odd that this is being misunderstood multiple times. I thought Oxy was fairly clear. (Whether or not you think that town needs a polarizing leader type)

I'm still not really sure if I understand that tbh.

I feel like it is anti-town to post something that a) could plausibly affect the day 1 lynch and b) nobody understands, and then come back to the thread and just post something weird instead of explaining even though everyone is asking for an explanation. This is the kind of thing that wastes time and as mentioned already, wasting time does seem like a viable strategy for scum at the moment. Like it's not just lurking (and I've been null-reading Drixx all game).

It's anti-town but I don't think anti-town == scummy.

I feel like you're missing something but I'm not sure how to say it

Also, how would you propose to determine the day 1 lynch? Who do you think is scummy?

Idk, I don't really know what you think I'm missing so if you figure it out lmk and we can talk about it.

I think that the day 1 lynch should be on individual scumminess - not on lurking and not on associatives. It should just be on someone you think is scummy.

Reads:

{}
{scioness, ofrzh}
{pin}
{drixx, eth0s, nsg} -- null
{ruru}
{oxy} - I'm not entirely sure where to put him and I'm feeling very conflicted atm cuz some of his posts seem very genine and townie in isolation, but I don't like the drixx wagon thing or its aftermath, and I feel like he's pocketing and buddying people and being LAMSIT. I kinda want to hear his reaction to the scioness thing and where he goes next after saying scioness is town above.
{}

---------------

Overconfidence is a townie treat, because scum can't be overconfident in their reads. Why? Well, because scum knows who is town and who is scum, of course. That's not overconfidence in their reads, that's knowing for sure that their reads are good or bad. And simulating to be overconfident is really really hard, or at least keep playing like that during the entire game.

I actually kinda think the opposite, that it's easy for scum to be overconfidant cuz they already have all the answers. Like they can seem overconfidant pushing something because they know what they're pushing. Like I think it's harder for scum to fake indecision than overconfidance. I don't particularly think this is a towntell.

--------------

Oxy RIGHT NOW is the best timing for doing it, since skitter stopped voting Drixx and started to have suspicions on Oxy's motivations. So you building a case on Oxy now is well-timed and a great scum strategy.

She went to oxy before I voted drixx - ie before the drixx thing happened.

--------------

tl;dr Skitter30 is playing a very townie game. If Skitter30 is scum, I expect her to basically scum claim by Lylo.

skitter30: I know the reasoning here has been explained previously, but I'd also like to know if you personally agree with said reasoning.

I read 'scumclaim' in that context as 'not keeping up this posting style throughout the game since at some point scum!me would likely have to drop it to pursue a scum agenda', and yeah I agree with that. I have a lot of trouble of posting like this as scum and I tend to lurk a lot; I panic-lurk under pressure. (tbf I haven't rolled scum since like august so I'd like to imagine I'd be better at that now.) But yeah I can't really maintain this posting style over long periods of time, and I have a lot of trouble maintaining arguments that make sense in a holistic sense if I don't believe in them, so yeah I think that's a pretty fair assessment. If it looks like I'm lurking or like I'm avoiding conflict I'm probably scum tbh. (not posting while I'm v/la doesn't count; I go offline sometimes for religious reasons and I don't post during those times at all and it isn't AI.)

Imo I'm kinda out of my scumrange out this point (although I wasn't imo when oxy wrote up his reason for townleaning me; I don't really think I could fake my reaction to the drixx thing), but yeah don't take my word for it.

---------------

Also I really think he's got pin pocketed.

Could you explain? I feel I've given my own reads and content with enough explanation, and pocketing implies that he's scum, right? Because if I follow his lead and he's town, it would be sheeping and not pocketing, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm having trouble with translation

Pocketing doesn't inherently mean scum; sometimes town can pocket too, but yeah atm I kinda think he's scum who's pocketed you - he's trying to make you want to join his townbloc, and to make you want to do what he wants.

I'll comment on your scioness case in a bit.

[skitter30]

OK, going in order:

@pin, 501:

1. Like I get what you're saying, but I think I'm going to have to disagree with this. I think scum are more likely to be overconfidant cuz they know all the answers, and cuz that way they might be able to get people to follow them.

2. There was only like 12 hours between when she voted him and I got suspicoius of oxy, and like another 18 hours or so before she wrote a case on him, and she wasn't really active in between. I think her case is just an extension of her previous vote.

3. I think sheeping can happen if somenoe is pocketed, but someone can sheep without being pocketed. Like being pocketed is player A specifically trying to manipualte player B into townreading them. Player B can townread player A and decide to sheep them without being pocketed.

In this specific case I kinda think that 'you think his reads are good and so are following his reads' might have been a thought process he cultivated/encouraged. Like you came to it on your own, but once you did, he started throwing in some lines that would encourage you to want to follow him (like the example I quoted before at the top of 416, with the jersey thing, and you replying that you wanted the jersey. )

------------------

@oxy: you said you had read stack-the-deck and NSG was in that game. What did you think of her play?

[skitter30]

I'm having a really hard time with "lurking isn't scummy" + "posting in an anti-town manner isn't scummy".

I don't really know how to explain this. Sometimes player do things that aren't pro-town (ie like lurking), but it isn't an inherently scummy behavior.

Think about it like this - if townies always behave in a pro-town fashion, scum wouldn't be able to push mislynches cuz everyone would be obvtown, right? The fact that mislynches even happen kinda implies that townies don't always play pro-town. Like in an ideal world, all townies should want to play in the most pro-town fashion possible, and scum should want to emulate that so that they don't stick out like a sore thumb, but in practice town don't always play optimally.

Like in practice, I've found that in general, lurking isn't a scumtell. It might be for some specific people (it is for me), but in general it's an 'I'm busy in real life' tell, or an 'I don't care about this game' tell. Like lurking, besides for specific meta cases, has not been directly correlated with being scum in my experience.

In recent past games:

Spoiler:

Mini 1963 - Lalendra was posting theories that were flat-out illogical and made no sense and got into a whole 1v1 over defending it. Scum pushed her - obviously being so irrational is a scumtell, right? Town couldn't be *that* clueless as to the actual gamestate. Scum quickhammered and she flipped town.

Later in Mini 1963 - wave decided to lie through MYLO mass-claim, we lynched scum, and when he claimed the next day, I didn't really believe it for a whole host of reasons. And when he claimed, he claimed odd-night vanilla cop although he was a full vanilla cop - and claiming full vanilla cop would have put the game on lock given the results we already had . He got into a role-based 1v1 with scum and got mislynched. I'm still annoyed about this one.

Micro 756 - Flubber was lurking cuz he was busy irl and blew up at people for pressuring him and started cursing out people. He almost got lynched for not being townie. I objected cuz I don't think 'not being townie' is the same thing as 'being scummy', and got myself scumread by the biggest proponent of the flubber wagon for my trouble. I was stubborn enough about it to prevent it from happening, I got nk'd and flubber got lynched in LYLO to lose town the game. The proponent of the flubber wagon was scum.

Open 711 - Sky decided it was a good idea to fake-claim cop in an open setup in MYLO. It appeared to be a 1v1 between him and the other dude who claimed cop. I believed the other dude, voted sky, and .... he flipped town. (The other dude was actually the cop, and sky was town and I don't get what he was thinking).

And so on. I can find a bunch of examples. Like all of these things are annoying and anti-town but I'm learning that they aren't *scummy* behavior.

[skitter30]

@ofrzh: I haven't read 1851 and I'm not sure when I'll have a chance to do so, but I will try to read the mafia PT as I can.

---------------

@oxy: I'm not sure how I feel about 504 - specifically how confident you are now that she *isn't* scum. Like you're now arguing that she's upset!town, and you seem to be like 100% on that read, and it just seems .... so abrupt? Idk. I'm not sure how I feel about you going from conf!scum to conf!town (telling me that I'm right for townreading her) on the basis of these two posts. There's just no progression and I feel like you did a total 180.

I think I want to keep you in my lynchpool - there's just a lot of red flags coming from you that make me very nervous. Some of your individual posts townping me but some individual posts scumping me, and holistically your play seems very pocket-y and I'm not really liking the drixx wagon thing or how you were handling scioness before.

I'm pretty sure ofrzh is town. Pin I'm gutreading as town for now and I don't really want to lynch him. ruru's posts on this page are townpinging me.

I don't really have a read on eth0s or nsg.

Drixx is a slight scumlean cuz of his weird posts but not strong enough for me to want to lynch him. I really don't think that the lurking is AI like at all. Idk if it's a reaction test; I do want to know what he's thinking though.

scioness is probably town but I think 1851 is required reading for this game so I'm going to have to read that before I commit to it.

p-edit: no you don't have to reread it.

[skitter30]

3. I'm unconvinced that anyone is conftown on day 1 and this plan basically relies on people being conftown.
3. If one of your reasons for TRing skitter is that given her current playstyle she will be obvscum later by having to push poor lynches, but we already decided on those lynches, then I don't think the original logic applies.
Suppose scum is eth0s+skitter or pin+skitter and skitter busses her partner and then just gets to lylo automatically by following the plan (first 2 days would be 3 town + 1 scum dead, then day 3 2 more town die, then day 4 it's 3-way lylo unless PRs save us). And 3-way lylo seems like a big diceroll to me, especially if scum hasn't had to do anything scummy all game. I mean I guess it's 2/3rds win in theory but even that's assuming there are three 100% conftown.

Goodposting. I'm getting townpings from this.

[skitter30]

1. Ok, I get your point too, so not going to insist with my point!
2. Fair enough, but what do you think on my case on Scioness in general? I know this will be difficult to you because we are on different sidewalks, but from my point of view, town!Oxy took the bait and now is townreading Scioness because of the AtE. Why do you think scum!Oxy would do this? If Oxy was town, do you believe Scioness would be town too?
3. Ok, of course i don't feel pocketed because I feel my reads are not affected by him, but I get your point and it makes sense from your point on view. I simply think Oxy is town and that happened before the "pocketing"

2. I actually think that I'm going to let her respond to your case before I go through it line-by-line.

I think that scum!oxy saw that town!scioness had reacted fairly townie under pressure and that he felt he may not have been able to push her through to a lynch anymore, so he decided to go the other way and townread her.

I'm pretty sure that scioness/oxy is not svs; I don't think anyone goes through that much scum theater. I think it's probably not tvt either but I don't know how to explain why it doesn't feel that way to me. I think it's tvs, and right now I'm thinking scioness is town and oxy is scum.

3. OK that's fair but I'm going to keep an eye on this.

[skitter30]

VOTE: Pinturicchio You guys got the pocketing attempt backwards.

wtf

This came out of left-field and kinda feels like you're trying to find an acceptable new lynch target.

Except you drop it shortly thereafter and it almost feels like you can't substantiate the claim of pin pocketing you?

Like this is just wtf-y.

p-edit: yeah you're admitting that you couldn't substantiate the case. It kinda feels to me that you're looking for a case that you can push and less like that you're looking for scum.

I still have to go back and address a few other things but I was in middle of writing about this vote and saw 579

[skitter30]

@skitter in your 388 you talk to ruru about her playstyle being pretty defensive and talk about how she only plays reactively. Well I could draw parallels to your gameplay. You haven't been playing reactively necessarily, but you mostly talk about ongoing stuff that isn't about you. There haven't been a lot of people going after you because you exude towniness, but I think that maybe you should force interaction with people if you think they are coasting. It doesn't have to be you calling them out but simply trying to understand people's reasoning (which you have done with ruru) is a plus. I'm not trying to call you out here, I'm kind of using you as an example. You haven't had to say much about things other than the 1v1, but when you do it has been thought-provoking stuff to help us look at people objectively. Major town points still. I do kind of wish you would help start a push, because people seem to trust you so far and your talent could be used to lead town.

Idk, I kinda feel like I'm pushing people as I see things to push.

Like I tend to get very aggressive when I'm very confident that I've found scum and people tend to sheep that, but I'm not that confident right now. There's a lot of people I'm townreading or nullreading, and it's hard for me push things when I'm conflicted and still making up my mind.

And people tend to sheep me in general, and this game apparently when I make a vote there's people who will hop on after me just cuz I voted there (ie the drixx wagon), and like, I don't feel good enough about any wagon right now to be responsible for like three votes. Like I cast a pressure vote and the next thing I know that wagon is at L-1 with a deadline to post and it's just ... I kinda feel like people are waiting for me to do something but I don't know what I want to do, and I definitely don't want to cause a whole wagon at the drop of a dime when I don't feel that confidant about it in the first place? Does that make sense? Idk.

[skitter30]

Also I like eth0s' catch-up; I forgot to put that at the end of that post.

[skitter30]

I feel like pressuring Drixx was significantly +EV and I don't like that she was so against it when, from a town POV, it should be clear that nobody was actually going to lynch Drixx in 24 hours (which I was trying not to say, but I guess I will say it now since the strategy is pretty much done).

No, this was not clear to me. It looked to me like Oxy wanted to lynch Drixx if he hadn't posted after 24 hours and I don't support that and I won't be on an L-1 wagon pressuring someone like that.

The longer he has votes on him the more likely we are to get information either from him or from people's reactions to the wagon. If he's town and scum makes the mistake of hammering him then we found scum, and I don't believe a town player who wants to win would ever hammer given the context of the wagon. I think the pro-town play would be to unvote closer to the deadline, not to do it immediately, and I feel like a town player should be able to figure that out I guess rather than make some arguments about why lynching him in 24 hours would be wrong.

He literally hasn't logged in since before I voted for him - like his response or lack of a response isn't AI. It just means he's busy. The number of votes he has on him doesn't make it more or less likely for him to post if he literally hasn't been onsite to see them. Like the statement 'the longer he has votes on him the more likely we are to get information from him' literally isn't true if he isn't here at all.

That whole wagon feels like an excuse for scum to push a lynch on someone for lurking when they're just not here.

[skitter30]

@skitter30 please explain to me how you thought that deadline was enforceable.
Okay, what are your thoughts on this, Ruru?

It looked to me like you were grooming pin to want to hammer if drixx hadn't posted in 24 hours.

[skitter30]

ebwop: 581 is what I was talking about when I said you're reasonable in your analysis even when you're wrong. So why couldn't you wrap your head around a simple hypothetical? You understand what I was getting at now, right?

this is @skitter30, btw

No I don't understand what this post means or what you're trying to say here. IE I don't understand where my analysis is wrong when you literally said the case wasn't there in 579 as I was writing a post stating I felt like you unvoted pin cuz you realized you couldn't substantiate that case.

[skitter30]

It looked to me like you were grooming pin to want to hammer if drixx hadn't posted in 24 hours.

Don't you think you could have just unvoted after pin gave intent to hammer if you felt the lynch shouldn't go through?

When it went to L-1 that fast I got some gut vibes of something being wrong but I didn't know what it was so I just unvoted so that I'd have some room to think through the wagon. I realized after I unvoted that one of the things that was specifically making me nervous is that you were indicating you wanted pin to hammer a wagon on {nsg/eth0s/drixx} if it had gotten to L-1.

[skitter30]

I initially thought 410 was a response to:

I also kinda feel like oxy almost wants this hammer to happen?

And didn't realize it was a direct response to ruru.

[skitter30]

It looked to me like you were grooming pin to want to hammer if drixx hadn't posted in 24 hours.

Don't you think you could have just unvoted after pin gave intent to hammer if you felt the lynch shouldn't go through?

I didn't give intent to hammer at all. Y'all assumed I would vote Drixx because I said that Drixx and Scioness were the scumteam, but I said specifically that I wouldn't vote Drixx nor Scioness without making a case on them before. The closest thing I remember saying is that I intended to vote him, but I said immediately that I wouldn't vote for him without my case.

I actually didn't make this assumption which is part of the reason I'm having trouble understanding why skitter30 would react that way.

P.S. @Pinturicchio I'm not giving you a team jersey yet, but you can drop the hammer if/when it becomes appropriate.

This looks to me like you wanted pin to hammer.

I wasn't assuming that pin would do it, but it looked to me like you were pressuring pin to do it, and since he was conf-towning you I didn't know how he would react to that once an L-1 wagon had actually formed.

[skitter30]

I initially thought 410 was a response to:

I also kinda feel like oxy almost wants this hammer to happen?

And didn't realize it was a direct response to ruru.

So you understand it now?

Yeah

[skitter30]

Oh, you're analysis is wrong because I'm town. The analysis is reasonable because I can understand a reasonable person seeing that as a scummy set of posts.

Right, but telling me that you're town doesn't really change the fact that from my POV that was a scummy vote/unvote since it looks like you started a case that you dropped cuz you realized you couldn't follow-through on it.

Like I said, it looks to me more like you're looking for cases you can push than for scum.

[skitter30]

@oxy: You had written that but I think I just didn't get the connection between ruru's post and yours. Like I saw it but I just didn't put together what the connection was. I kept on asking you about it cuz the post didn't make sense to me and I coudln't figure out what you were talking about. I think I just misread it and kept on thinking the post was a response to me and not getting that it was a response to ruru.

[skitter30]

Is it possible that I really meant the part where I said "If/when it becomes appropriate" or did I unequivocally want him to hammer?

I called it 'grooming' before -> the 'team jersey' bit made it look to me like you were trying to make him amenable to doing that. Like he's got you as conf-town - you telling him he'd get a 'team jersey' if he hammered looks to me like you were trying to make him want him to do that to join the town bloc you were forming.

[skitter30]

I wasn't trying to change your mind on the case. I'm pointing out the difference between you being the reasonable, level headed thinking skitter30 I wrote a read about, and the actions I'm talking to you about in other posts.

I didn't say you were trying to change my mind about the case? I don't understand what this post is trying to say.

[skitter30]

@skitter30 If I'm understanding you, you're saying that you read each of the posts I quoted above, and continued to believe that my original post was not a response to ruru?

Like I read them but didn't make the connection, yeah. I don't know why I didn't.

[skitter30]

I did not say he would get a team jersey if he hammered. You've clearly read this post a number of times. Is this another misunderstanding?
Again, is it possible that I was being sincere when I said, "If/when it becomes appropriate?"

Yes it's possible you were being sincere, but the way the whole thing played out to me looked like you were trying to push the wagon with me/you/ruru/ofrzh, and that one of the ways pin could earn townpoints was by hammering it. Yes, I get that you said 'if/when it became apropriate', but like it shows you were already planning for hammer at a time when the only vote on the wagon was ofrzh, which is why I got nervous that you wanted him to hammer, since you made that post to him in the context of hammering a wagon comprised of me/you/ruru/ofrzh, which is exactly the wagon that happened.

Like it felt to me like you had put together a wagon of me/ofrzh/you/ruru and that you were indicating you wanted pin to hammer it, and that you didn't care whether it was on {eth0s/nsg/drixx}

Also we appear to have different of what constitutes 'apropriate'. I don't think hammering that wagon if drixx hadn't shown up within a day is 'apropriate'. I don't know what pin thinks about that - he was waiting until he felt better so that he could post his drixx case and I don't know if he would have hammered after 24 hours. I don't feel comfortable being on that wagon.

[skitter30]

I'll be back in a few minutes to answer the above posts

[skitter30]

To bring it back full circle, I'm trying to figure out if your reaction to the Drixx wagon and the posts that followed it were the "scum claim" I said I expected scum!Skitter30 to eventually make.

I mean, your immediate reaction to my unvote was to strongly townread me for it so I'm not really sure why you're now wondering if it was a scumclaim.

[skitter30]

Also we appear to have different of what constitutes 'apropriate'. I don't think hammering that wagon if drixx hadn't shown up within a day is 'apropriate'. I don't know what pin thinks about that - he was waiting until he felt better so that he could post his drixx case and I don't know if he would have hammered after 24 hours. I don't feel comfortable being on that wagon.

This still doesn't address why you would remove your vote instantly rather than closer to the deadline. Drixx can't get hammered at 24h if he's not at L-1 in 24h. Like unless everyone actually wants to lose there would at least be an extension of the deadline to argue about it.

Maybe I wasn't clear - my initial vote on drixx wasn't an implicit approval of the L-1 deadline thing. I didn't like drixx's post ,so I voted him to pressure him. Concurrently, I thought we were talking about maybe putting someone at L-1 to pressure them to post in 24 hours, but thought that hadn't come to a conclusion yet. My vote wasn't particularly related to this.

Then all of a sudden oxy follows me, apparently cuz I was townread who voted there, and then you followed oxy, and oxy posts 400, which reads to me like he was going through with the L-1 24 hour plan.

And I was literally writing a post about how I didn't really agree with it, so when I saw that I unvoted. I also started to feel like something sketchy was up cuz the wagon formed fast, and cuz I didn't like how oxy was pushing it, and cuz of the pin-hammer thing. Also I never supported the plan in the first place.

[skitter30]

@skitter30 Your unvote isn't what I find unreasonable. My read on you is that you read a post and ask yourself, "is this alignment indicative beyond a reasonable doubt?" If the answer is no, you would discount it when making your reads. You told me that was a good description of your town game. When you read my posts leading up to that wagon and conclude that it's scum getting ready to pressure Pin to make a bad hammer, I don't see the level of charity I believe indicative of your town game.

Why can't the following be sincere? Why is the narrative of scum!oxy blatantly leading a wagon into a quick hammer the most reasonable explanation for what happened?

I don't think I've said anything to imply that this

[THE PLAN TO WAGON SOMEONE]

is to be set in stone and nothing could change. In fact, I've called for input and leadership from other players multiple times. Regardless, I'm not going to be party to a lynch a person if they are just straight up away from the site for 24 hours. I also would suggest holding the hammer if they were to be like, "Hey, I really can't post today but if you give me until X time I promise that I'll get you what you're looking for." In that situation, I'd suggest turning the wagon towards someone else for the time being. If they didn't follow through on that promise, I would have no qualms being involved in that lynch.

Like the posts leading up to the drixx thing were very pocket-y and 'make my townreads feel comfortable wagoning someone'-y.

Like that pin-hammer thing wasn't in isolation, but looked to me like part of a pattern of you trying to cultivate your townreads to join a wagon on any of {eth0s/drixx/sajj/nsg} that the majority of them wanted. Like by itself, sure, my immediate thought wouldn't be that you were trying to pocket pin to get him to hammer, but in the context of you trying to convince your townreads to join a wagon, that comment to pin looked to me like you were looking for the fifth person you'd need to hammer, and that you were trying to make pin amneable to it.

Like a paraphrase/quoting/rephrasing of 379: 'hey team town (oxy/skitter/ruru/ofrzh)! let's work together to wagon any of {nsg/eth0s/drixx/sajj}! I don't care which; I didn't even organize them in order of scumminess! I'll do whatever you guys are cool with! We'll put them at L-1 and give them 24 hours to post something that isn't garbage and we'll hammer* p.s. pin, you're not in the cool town group yet, but you can hammer for us when it becomes apropriate!'

like in that context it does indeed look like you were looking for the fifth person to hammer.

Also the fact that you didn't really care which of those people it was on made me feel like you were just looking to push a lurker lynch.

* I took this to mean that if the people had a scummy response to pressure *or* if they didn't post at all they'd get hammered. And I assumed you meant 'not posting within 24 hours' would be an 'appropriate' reason for pin to hammer.

regarding 464 - that is not how I understood 379, like at all. Like if 464 is what you meant, I did not find that to be clear at all, and *while I was trying to have a convo with you about it* you went through with the plan. Like saying after the fact that I immediately jumped to a scum!oxy narrative is kinda disingenuous when I was in middle of trying to talk to you about and explain why I didn't like it and find out more about your POV and you went forward with it *in middle of that convo.*

Like I vote drixx. (I explained above that I didn't see that as agreeing to your plan.) I say I dont' feel comfortable with hammer. You vote drixx. You tell me that you think hammering after seven days is a good idea to prevent scum from forcing through a bad lynch at deadline. I'm in middle of writing a response to this when ruru votes and you go forward with the plan and I unvote in p-edit cuz I don't agree.

Also 398 implies to me that you'd be fine with a hammer on drixx if he didn't post, which doesn't match up with 464 above, which came after I unvoted and after I gave a lot of pushback.

[skitter30]

To bring it back full circle, I'm trying to figure out if your reaction to the Drixx wagon and the posts that followed it were the "scum claim" I said I expected scum!Skitter30 to eventually make.

I mean, your immediate reaction to my unvote was to strongly townread me for it so I'm not really sure why you're now wondering if it was a scumclaim.

You don't understand why I'm wondering if your recent play, by which I mean the stuff we have been discussing, is a departure from the read I gave on you? I'm not saying I'm convinced that you're scum, but I think it's a reasonable avenue to explore. Do you disagree?

I kinda feel like ruru mentioned she was suspicious of me and you had indicated you would no longer be supporting a sajj wagon and that you realized you couldn't push pin for pocketing you so you're now probing to see how much support there might be for a wagon on me. Like you're free to explore it but I find the timing odd.

I don't know what you're referring to by recent play.

[skitter30]

Maybe I wasn't clear - my initial vote on drixx wasn't an implicit approval of the L-1 deadline thing.

If you were indeed working under the assumption that people will sheep

you

(and not just your vote), starting a wagon with no credible threat behind it sounds like it could be a good way to distance scum!skitter from scum!Drixx while also making it very unlikely that he will ever get lynched D1 (due to a recent wagon on him disbanding) and not making him feel any pressure to post. Let's say scum!Drixx was AFK and scum!skitter wasn't sure whether or not he would be comfortable with having more serious pressure on him. It could also explain why scum!skitter was interested in voting on scum!Drixx at first but panicked after realizing Oxy's plan was still occurring.

I can understand why you'd think that but that isn't what was happening.

I wanted to pressure drixx to explain his post. I was not expecting two votes + a 24-hour deadline to be imposed immediately thereafter. I on principle don't feel comfortable threatening to vote someone that isn't here because they aren't here if I have no reason to believe their absence is AI.

Also if it's me/drixx, scum!me has no reason to pick drixx to vote out of {scioness/nsg/drixx/eth0s} there if that was the proposed plan. I could very easily have voted eth0s; there were two votes there and I could've just let the 24-hour lynch thing happen without involving partner!drixx in it at all to get a mislynch and let the day end fast. Like if I was scum with drixx there's no reason for me not to just support the plan on anyone not my partner without starting all of this in the first place.

[skitter30]

@oxy: I understand the distinction you're drawing but it still looks to me like you were looking for someone to hammer - like you were giving him permission to hammer almost. And *in the context of the first paragraph of 379*, it has pocket-y overtones.

[skitter30]

Also I want to reiterate that 560 - 568 really look like oxy thought he had could make a pin push based on pin pocketing him, so he changed his readslist to match, and started pushing it, and once he realized he couldn't back it up he dropped it.

Like I don't understand the start of 565 or 563 juxtaposed with 567. Like 565 reads as the start of a case in a very high-level sense, and when he went back to read the actual posts they didn't match what he was pushing. Like he has a very serious scumread on him because of pocketing, changes his readslist to match, but just drops it.

It also like came out of left-field and was just really, really weird timing. This push might honestly be the scummiest set of posts in the game imo.

I have not read any of scioness' posts from tonight; I'll look at them in the morning.

p-edit: I also have not read oxy's latest post but I'm going to bed now and I'll look at it tomorrow.

[skitter30]

@oxy:

eli5 what you were planning on doing wrt to the drixx wagon if he had been at L-1 for 24 hours and hadn't posted at all.

[skitter30]

I was looking for a potential 5th vote. Specifically, I was looking for someone who I wasn't sure of so that I could force them to take a stand on whatever Drixx ended up posting. My goal was to make Pin decide whether or not to give intent to hammer, and to tell me why.

I don't understand why you were planning this and *setting up pin in particular to have to decide whether or not to make the hammer vote* when the wagon was at one vote.

Again, given the context of setting up a wagon with all of your townreads, it looked like you were pressuring him to want to join that group by hammering.

When you say that "I went through with the plan" I find that disingenuous because a) I can't force pin to give intent b) I can't force anyone to stay on the wagon, and c) we could have had this entire conversation with you on/off the wagon instead of you telling me that I was pushing a lynch. You WERE town reading me at that point. Why not have the conversation you're saying I was dodging? And at the point I voted, the "conversation" was a one liner from you saying you weren't comfortable with a lynch in the middle of a wall of unrelated items. I didn't even know we were having a conversation.

400 looks to me like you were going through with your plan - it was like 'hey, now he's at L-1! Drixx, post something good or else!'

No, you can't force pin to give intent or make other people stay on the wagon, but you were actively courting my vote and telling me to vote again after I unvoted, which is indicative of wanting the wagon to stay at L-1 and wanting your plan to go through.

And I was under the impression that we *were* having a convo about this at the time. I thought it was still under discussion, and was not expecting you to follow-up like that. I was saying that you were pushing a lynch, cuz as I understood your plan, you were pushing for a lynch in the absence of townie posts within that deadline, which I don't agree with. (specifically I don't think 'no posts' == 'scummy posts')

answering 633
By recent play, I'm referencing all of what we've been discussing this evening about your play.
That's a great narrative for scum!oxy. Could it also be that I've got a million town reads, and I'm reevaluating people because I'm probably wrong somewhere?

I'm specifically asking what prompted you to re-evaluate. You're telling me it's because of 'recent play' but since you liked my reaction to drixx at the time, I don't understand what I posted last night that made you want to re-evaluate it. Like 'recent play' is very broad and it seems like you're referencing something specific as being out of character for me which prompted you to re-evulate drixx but I don't know what instigated that.

[skitter30]

No offense, but 645 kinda sounds like bs to explain your pin vote.

Like it doesn't exactly contradict anything you wrote, but the mindset you're explaining there doesn't match the tone of the posts where you voted/unvoted pin. Like those posts seem very confident: "you got the pocketing attempt backwards"; "I haven't townread you for one minute this game". 565 in particular reads like you've just had some major epiphany and that you're now convinced he's scum and that you're surprised at how good his pocketing game is. Like you seem *very* confident on scum!pin in 565.

Like if you were actually now considering maybe scum!pin, I would've had expected you to say something like 'you know what, I'm not sure on pin because he kinda felt pocket-y, maybe I should go and check and see what I find', whereas you were talking to someone you strongly believed to be scum and like you couldn't believe they managed to pull the wool over your eyes for that long.

I don't know how to explain the timing thing. The vote felt wrong in the current gamestate. Like there was no leadup to it and you were indicating a semi-townlean on him and the confidance came out of nowhere. Like it felt premature and context-less. Idk how to explain that better.

[skitter30]

Also if it's me/drixx, scum!me has no reason to pick drixx to vote out of {scioness/nsg/drixx/eth0s} there if that was the proposed plan. I could very easily have voted eth0s; there were two votes there and I could've just let the 24-hour lynch thing happen without involving partner!drixx in it at all to get a mislynch and let the day end fast. Like if I was scum with drixx there's no reason for me not to just support the plan on anyone not my partner without starting all of this in the first place.

I'm not sure I agree that there is no benefit to scum!skitter in choosing scum!Drixx (and I mentioned some of the benefits in my post), but I still need to think a bit more on whether or not scum!skitter would actually do it. And I really don't think it's an alternative to "just let the 24-hour lynch thing happen [...] to get a mislynch and let the day end fast". I find it really hard to imagine a universe where that actually happens, and actively pushing it after 24h would make you look extremely scummy.

Also, I agree that Oxy's vote on pin was weirdly timed, but I feel like it was not necessarily out of character.

Idk what to say beyond this isn't how scum!me would ever play that partnered with scum!drixx. I would never promote a wagon on my partner and put pressure on him and call attention to his lurking-ness if I had multiple other options to push that would be just as easy to push.

Like I would be too worried of oxy's plan actually coming to fruition (even if I didn't think it was immediately going to happen) to start messing around with promoting a wagon on an inactive partner.

[skitter30]

@oxy:

eli5 what you were planning on doing wrt to the drixx wagon if he had been at L-1 for 24 hours and hadn't posted at all.

If he hadn't posted at all, then I would have suggested we try pressuring someone else. That means I would have suggested that we remove our votes from Drixx and put them on someone else to pressure them into posting. At the time, that would have been eth0s or NSG because they were the two other people being inactive. You're absolutely right that wagoning someone to pressure them into posting doesn't work if they are just going to refuse to play entirely. Eventually, of course, if Drixx were to just never engage with this game, I would advocate a policy lynch, but I wouldn't advocate for that until D2 at the earliest.

Right, so your plan outlined in 379, coupled with 398 looked to me like you were cool with hammering someone *even if they hadn't posted at all*.

Like I get what you're saying now that you meant 398 wrt to over the course of the entire game, but like, that isn't what it sounded like in context.

I kinda feel like a lot of this argument is me saying 'I thought you meant A in post X', and then you saying, 'no post X really meant B', but given the context wherein post X was written, B wasn't the obvious connotation to me, and A seems a lot more of an obvious explanation to me given the surrounding posts.

I'm kinda wondering if I'm majorly misreading your posts. I'm also kinda wondering if you're like reinterpreting your posts after the fact to make them sound better when I object to them.

[skitter30]

Yeah I need a break too and to like not think about this for a bit, and then go back and try to reread from a fresh perspective.

Also I'm pretty sure I get what you're saying ffs; you're being kinda blatant. Like hi I'm not voting you cuz of 547, and that's why I went through this whole thing last night and this mroning by trying to understand what you meant this whole time instead of just voting you for your pin vote.

[skitter30]

Also I'm pretty sure I get what you're saying ffs; you're being kinda blatant. Like hi I'm not voting you cuz of 547, and that's why I went through this whole thing last night and this mroning by trying to understand what you meant this whole time instead of just voting you for your pin vote.

I'm 100% not the lynch today because if you think I'm the scummiest person in this game you're off your rocker. On. What. Planet. Does. Scum!Oxy. Play. This. Game?????????????????????????

I don't know - if it wasn't apparent, I'm not really understanding your motives. I mean, now what you're trying to say is a lot a more clear but that isn't what I thought was happening at the time.

I really think I need to take a step back and reread how that whole wagon formed cuz at this point I think I might be misunderstanding what was going on there.

One more thing: I'm kinda worried about the deadline of this day, because this sunday is easter and I don't know how that will affect the participation of some players in this game. I know for sure it will affect my posting as I'm going to spend this weekend with my family and we're leaving home, so I will have limited access and only through my phone. Is anyone else having that problem like me? Because if I'm not the only one, maybe we should ask the mod to extend the deadline, or we're going to make a pressured decision. I'm not up to any policy lynches, I don't advocate to that kind of strategy.

I'm Orthodox Jewish and tomorrow night is Passover and I'm not going to be online at all from tomorrow night till Sunday night and my family's traveling so yeah an extension would be nice.

[skitter30]

I agree with lot of 679; drixx highlighted a lot of the posts that I found super alarming at the time.

I almost feel like oxy's reads are informed almost? Idk how to explain that better. Like he's *too* certain about his townreads, and his scumread of scioness was too confident, and he kinda sounded like he thought drixx was going to flip town, but was pushing it anyways, and that we'd just lynch the lolhammerer the next day. It kinda felt like he was setting up the next day's lynch after a drixx flip, no matter what drixx flipped.

I really do think NSG needs to like say something at this point; she's definitely active elsewhere on site so it kinda looks like she's just avoiding this game.

@ruru, 694 - I thought you were scumreading cuz you thought I was protecting partner!drixx. Why isn't scum!me an indicator of scum!drixx then? IE are you scumreading me independently of the drixx?

I really like scioness' 695 and her read on ruru, which felt very nuanced to me. I think I'm townleaning scioness now. And I agree with 696 as well - that's why I found the wagon speed very alarming cuz I viewed mine/ofrzh's votes as pressuring votes because of his posts but it felt like ruru and oxy were pressuring him for activity reasons and it seemed to me they wanted to *lynch* him over it.

@ofrzh, 706 - iirc, ruru had been low-key mentioning she was scummy for a while, oxy asked her what she thought about me, she said she thought I was scummy, and then the me/oxy thing happened. It felt to me more like oxy was building on ruru's existing suspicions.

[skitter30]

I hope everyone enjoys any holidays they may be celebrating this weekend!

Drixx, I hope you have a nice, meaningful seder with your family!

And now I'm v/la till Sunday night or Monday

[skitter30]

OK, I'm off of vla, but I'm not going to be quite as active this week cuz my spring break ends tomorrow.

Going through what I missed.

----------

Page 29 from after my last post.

I don't really feel like NSG is scum-hunting. I kinda feel like she comes in a couple of hours after someone mentions that she isn't contributing and makes a post or two, but her posts aren't really game advancing. I don't really feel like she's trying to find scum so much as going through the motions of participating in the game. Like she's just kinda here whenever someone mentions that she hasn't been, but her content feels kinda ... empty. Idk how to explain that better.

I don't really like how she chides people about not-voting but has to be reminded into voting herself. Like she wants to

Drixx, I know you're busy irl but it's kinda bothering me that you're promising content within a specific timeframe and then you don't really deliver. You're starting to remind me of the last game we played together, which isn't exactly a good thing.

724 - I don't think that's a townslip tbh; it's not necessarily something that would have been discussed in scumchat.

--------------

Page 30

@ruru, 727 - It legitimately felt to me like oxy wanted drixx lynched if he hadn't posted - I was still thinking that up until my back and forth with oxy a few days back, and that's why I unvoted cuz the way the wagon formed felt wrong to me.

I was criticizing you about not taking a stance because it felt like you were purposefully avoiding it. It looked like you didn't know how to respond to it, and your reaction kinda exactly matched how I expected a partner to one of {oxy/scioness} to react to a 1v1 that they didn't know how to stave it off. I don't think I was pressuring people to lynch in that pair.

733 - gut scumpings me? It feels kinda forced almost? Idk how to explain it. Like NSG felt like she had to respond to the vote on her and it feels like she's trying to downplay it almost?

@ofrzh, last paragraph of 744 - That's a really interesting divide to have noticed about how people are reading oxy. I think he just comes off as really, really LAMIST, which are throwing some people off - a lot of his posts kinda sound like he's trying to get people to townread him, which makes him feel artificial sometimes. And people who don't have as much experience might not catch that a lot of his posts feel very artificial, and may take them at face value.

If anything I think that newer players are more likely to read 'bad play' as scummy - I think more experienced players might be more adept at distinguishing between anti-town play and scummy play.

746 - kinda bothering me that NSG was encouraging people to be pro-town by forming wagons and voting, but had to be reminded to do so herself.

@ruru, 747 - yeah I wasn't implying that scioness/oxy was necessarily svt so much as I was wondering why drixx wasn't considering that possibility. Also I wasn't misrepping the drixx wagon - I thought oxy was angling to lynch him after 24 hours if he hadn't posted. And I still maintain that wagoning him to L-1 as a reaction test doesn't accomplish anything if *drixx doesn't see it*, as he didn't once it played out. It's kinda hard for him to respond to pressure if he literally doesn't see the pressure.

----------

I'll continue from page 31 tomorrow.

[skitter30]

I think I want to do this for now.

VOTE: NSG

[skitter30]

I definitely think at least one scum is in eth0s/drixx/northsidegal/maybe skitter (yes I realize this is half the players in the game), just because their analysis of “this is a risky/overconfident play, ergo Oxy is scum” seems a bit... shallow? However, it doesn’t strike me as particularly likely that ruru would be teamed with any of them.

That isn't exactly my read on oxy. My read is more: a lot of LAMIST behavior; building a townbloc in a way that feels artificial to me; what appeared to me to be trying to push a lynch on an inactive player; possibly trying to pocket people.

--------------

@ assemble

did you notice that eth0s asked to be replaced?

-------------

So, I think maybe some people (especially eth0s) have analyzed the game that way because they are kind of skimming the thread due to time constraints. Like in isolation 504 is scumpost of the game. If I read the whole thread in an hour I would probably think Oxy is scum too.

OK, why isn't that a scummy post when people have more time to read the game?

skitter isn't voting on him (I'm not sure what this means).

I'm trying to decide if I want to elaborate, probably will, still need to mull it over. It's part of the reason why I'm voting NSG.

Other things from that post:

Yes, I"m referring to 1797. He got caught as scum and active-lurked for the rest of the phase and was on semi-v/la for medical reasons throughout. I spent most of the phase waiting for him to answer stuff and gave up around deadline and we ultimately just hammered him.

(ctrl+f 'v/la' in that game too and I have another rant there about not wanting to vote people who aren't there)

I'm not sure if that game is completely analogous to this one -> there like everyone agreed that he was super obvious scum and in retrospect I think he probably couldn't have said anything to divert the wagon. Here I don't think he's being scumread to the same degree, and he isn't really being scumread so much as being suspected for lack of content. Maybe I'm too charitable a person but I really do think he's just too busy to play right now, and I don't think that's inherently scummy, although it's anti-town.

Also I think that pressuring someone to explain a vote with like over a week left is different from putting them to L-1 and saying if they don't post pro-town stuff within a day they'll get lynched. Yeah, he might not have seen my vote on him for a couple of days, but like, the day wasn't going to be ending soon, so he'd see it whenever he caught up. Like it didn't matter to me if he saw it in 24 hours or 48 hours. If he catches up he'd see if eventually and see that was something taht concerned me.

The 24 hour deadline made me uncomfortable.

I do think oxy is scummy but I don't want to vote there right now.

-----------

skitter’s unvote -

I don’t understand why people are putting so much attention into it. When voting she has mentioned that she wasn’t up for lynching Drixx. And Oxy’s intention are anything but clear in this game, imo. Add to it that the votes after skitter’s appeared in the span of 20 minutes and went with ‘if you don’t do what we like, we will lynch you’.

Yeah this basically.

Also from that post. NSG being around but not playing the game is making her kinda scummy to me. I do feel like she's active lurking cuz she seems to pop in a few hours after people say she isn't really contributing. And like she's active elsewhere on site, it's not like she's just too busy to check the game at all. It feels like she's following along just enough to indicate that she's here but she isn't doing anything to advance the gamestate.

At this point her lack of content is becoming a reason to scumread her for me.

--------------

@pin, can you tell me why you think I'm scummy?

[skitter30]

@nsg, 782 - I think I was mainly getting that vibe from 537 - it felt to me like you were following along enough to respond to direct questions to you but weren't really talking about anything else, so it felt to me like you were selectively engaging with the thread and kinda avoiding the main topics of the day, a lot of which happened *after* you replaced in. Like I felt like you're different from eth0s and drixx because they weren't here *at all*, whereas you were around but not really talking about the major events of the day.

I guess maybe I'm expecting too much? Idk.

UNVOTE:

for now.

----------

@drixx, 796- I think it might be useful for you to share what you were thinking about people's reactions to your posts; it would def help me get a sense of what you're thinking about the game.

----------

@drixx, 806 - I've been specifically saying this entire game that I don't think that your being absent is inherently AI? That's where the whole drixx-wagon-unvote thing came from. At the same time, I do remember that past game where you were kinda avoiding the game in order to wait for another game to end so that you could use a meta-defense, but although this game *reminds* me of that game, I concluded that game was sufficiently different from this one that that meta isn't particularly helpful here and that it isn't a reason to scumread you.

I don't understand where you think I've been saying you're scum here because of that game.

Also I don't get how you can possibly characterize my play as 'you can't remember much else game-related from me'.

817 - I was going to say that I don't think you're qualified judge my scumgame, but then I remembered 1787 lol. I kinda think you're overestimating my scumgame tbh though (that's like my one and only good scumgame on site). But 817 gives me bad vibes - kinda feels like you're trying to undermine oxy's read on me almost? I don't know how to explain why it bothers me exactly. Or maybe you actually think I'm that good at scum, idk.

----------

I don't think eth0s' replaceout was AI tbh. I think he was just busy irl; he was telegraphing the replace-out for like a week.

----------

I don't really know where I want to vote right now.

I'm very confident that ofrzh is town.

I think that eh0s-slot and scioness are more-likely-than-not-town.

I don't have a good read on NSG or Drixx.

I gut townread pin.

Ruru I'm kinda gutscumleaning but I like some of her individual posts and her thought process reminds me of my own so I'm conflicted.

Oxy, eh, I'll just say it. I am scumreading him but I think that he softed in 667 and 547 and I do think that'll get resolved via night actions and/or claims (NSG, it's a newbie game with a semi-open setup and if he isn't like dead soonish yeah I'm going to visit it the day before LYLO if I'm alive cuz I don't want a repeat of that open game we played) and I don't think it's a good idea to wagon him right now.

----------

I've only skimmed this page, but haven't really read it yet; I'll get there in a bit, possibly tomorrow.

[skitter30]

Now, about talking of softclaims...
VOTE: skitter30

I neither understand what this means nor why you're voting me. I'm explaining why I'm not voting my biggest scumread.

Also did you ever explain why you're scumreading me in the first place, which I asked about a few pages back?

Hey math!

[skitter30]

@Pin: I'm trying to explain why I'm not voting for him right now, and why I haven't for the past week. I think it's pretty apparent that's what he's doing, and basically said as much when it happened. I don't know if that's in his scum range or not and that's why I was trying to continue to sort him because he gives me really bad vibes.

I think that both NSG's and Drixx's votes on the oxy wagon are suspect (with the caveat that they actually read either post) because I believe both of them are competant enough players to recongize that those posts were softs. I don't know if eth0s would have recognized that as a soft; I think he read the first post in question as a dare by oxy, and I don't think he got up to the second. That's part of the reason why they're both on the scummy side of null for me (if I knew that they read the relevant posts it would be a much stronger scumread).

I don't know how to explain why I'm voting the way I am and why I feel the way I do about Drixx/NSG and the oxy wagon without explaining that I viewed those posts as a soft.

I don't really know why you're scumreading me outside of this and the unvote, and I still don't get why you think the unvote was controversial. If you could give me a tldr I would appreciate it.

3. Thanks to the players who answered me about ruru's supposed townslip, I agree that it isn't a townslip and that helps me even more on my reads now, because ruru voting Drixx is something I see as scummy. ruru and skitter would be my both prime suspects if Drixx was indeed town; there should be one scum on that pair. ruru is pushing skitter right now and I don't know what to think about that, because she makes sense, but maybe it's a scum motivated push.

Namely, as far as I can tell, this is why you're scumreading me, and it seems to be based on you not liking the unovte (although you didn't mention it at the time, only after it had been rehashed to death), and it's based on the assumption of town!drixx.

Like as far as I can tell the argument is 'I'm scummy for voting drixx who may be town because you dislike the wagon'. Is that accurate? Can you explain why I unvote there if I'm scum pushing a scum-motivated wagon on town?

@ruru: Yes, I find LAMIST posts to be incredibly scummy; I think that scum write such posts to garner towncred, and it feels fake to me. You refer to post 436 but I didn't write that so I'm not sure which post you're referencing.

@math:

i was townreading it, and then figured "okay, NSG/skitter30 can't BOTH be scum with ethos", so i ISO'd the two of them looking to sheep their read on ethos just in case

I don't know what I"m doing in this sentence. (Although it's nice to know you think I'm sheepworthy lol)

From my POV highlights of the game are as follows:

Oxy is driving the game. Oxy seems LAMIST to me. Oxy/Scioness had some sort of 1v1 that I don't remember what it was about even tbh. In middle of the 1v1 ruru votes eth0s and it makes me feel like she's trying to divert away from the 1v1; if there's scum in {oxy/scioness} I think ruru may be a partner because of it. All the while eth0s, drixx, nsg-slot are lurking and/or afk and/or totally absent. Oxy posts 379 and I kinda hate it and like all of his posts on that page and immediately thereafter. I vote Drixx for a cryptic post he had written. Oxy/ruru view that as me willing to keep Drixx at L-1 to pressure him to post within 24 hours. I unvote cuz I don't believe in lynching someone who isn't here to respond to pressure. We rehash what all of us were thinking at the time at great length (I thought they wanted to lynch drixx if he hadn't posted in 24 hours; oxy/ruru were apparently voting him to pressure him to post and if he hadn't posted in 24 hours they would have ended the experiment). I very much dislike how the drixx wagon formed. Ofrzh bleeds town throughout all of this. We spent a lot of time rehashing the drixx wagon, and then turn our attention to the lurkers and I honestly don't know how this game is 35 pages long at this point.

[skitter30]

I don't think scioness is scum.

Why is NSG town? Why is oxy town?

(hey, look, I can write not-walls!)

[skitter30]

Yeah, I'm pretty much townreading eth0s; his catchup was probably not from scum. The read isn't quite as strong as I would like but I don't have a lot of strong townreads and I don't know if I can read you that well so I'm content just calling your slot town for today and revisiting it later.

I've never played with scum!NSG so idk. I feel like she's been active lurking kinda but maybe I'm expecting too much from people replacing in. I feel like she hasn't interacted with much *after* she replaced in either though.

I don't really have a read on drixx cuz he's been afk for large swaths of the game but my original explanation for why I voted him was in 395 (there's a quote of his relevant post). And he was kinda posting yesterday too. (I think you should read that page, or at least oxy's posts on that page, to explain partially where I'm getting the following from)

here's my oxy read cuz I disagree:

That isn't exactly my read on oxy. My read is more: a lot of LAMIST behavior; building a townbloc in a way that feels artificial to me; what appeared to me to be trying to push a lynch on an inactive player; possibly trying to pocket people.

He just feels really artificial to me.

I honestly dont' remember which posts prompted the scioness townread offhand but there were some posts from her that I really liked. If you give me a couple of minutes I'll dig them up if you like.

[skitter30]

Also for oxy I kinda feel like he's looking for a mislynch.

[skitter30]

I've only played the one game with you that I can't talk about atm and I don't think I have a good enough feel for how you usually play.

I think the posts on that page and in the immediate aftermath of the drixx wagon (ie the next page too) should give you a good feel for what I'm thinking about oxy. Give me a minute on the scioness posts, I need to find them.

[skitter30]

For scioness, it was specifically 695 that I liked and that pushed her up to 'more likely than not town' because I thought the read on ruru was very nuanced and probably doesn't come from scum. Overall I understand her thought process doens't really feel faked to me; it feels multi-dimensional and nuanced.

I know the scumgame everyone is referring to but I haven't had a chance to read it yet.

[skitter30]

okay then prove me wrong about this vote

VOTE: ofrhz

also has drixx claimed already

Who is the first line talking to? Ofrzh is ridiculously obvtown and I absolutely do not support a lynch on him today.

[skitter30]

If you want specific posts you're going to have to wait till I get home in like six hours because I think mobile is awful and I'm not going to spend time trying to find posts on my phone.

ofrzh bleeds town and that's like the one read I'm very confident on. probably not you or scioness. I'm gut-town on pin but I'm not confident on it.

If we take out oxy and nsg then ruru and drixx and maaaaaaaybe pin but I don't really feel it. But I don't feel good about taking out oxy and nsg.

And ruru/drixx is a weird pair cuz ruru empty-voted drixx for l-1, apparently to pressure him to post.

Oxy/pin is never a thing. Oxy/scioness isn't a thing. I don't think scioness/ruru works, and neither does ruru/eth0s.

[skitter30]

Messy post, I know, but I have a lot to say, sorry.

@oxy, 879, can you give me a tldr of where I've stopped playing townie? You townread me before the drixx thing and in the immediate aftermath so I still don't get why you thought that was a reason to scumread me like three days later.

Like eli5 why you're scumreading me right now.

--

@math - I find posts like the one you quoted in 881 to be scummy. They feel pocket-y and kinda artificial to me.

--

@drixx, 882 - I don't understand why you think this is an unusual view of the gamestate from me.

I was in between class on my phone when I wrote that, but more specifically:

-> I don't think the 1v1 between oxy and scioness was theatre.

-> ruru's eth0s vote way back when felt like she didn't know where to go in that gamestate so she was trying to start a push there. I don't think she starts a lolpush on her partner when there's a direct 1v1 going on and it would be easy to take a side on that instead.

-> I don't think scioness starts a push on her partner with like 48 hours left in the phase when she isn't going to be around for the rest of the phase

-> I still think oxy was trying to pocket pin and that dynamic doesn't read as partners to me

Beyond that, I think that if there's scum in {scioness/oxy} ruru is a good place to look for a partner since she was kinda trying to avoid that 1v1 and direct it elsewhere.

I don't have strong opinions on who else may or may not be paired up with each other.

--

@oxy, 888 - as has been rehashed like eight billion times, I did not view my vote as being an implicit agreement of your plan because I thought we were still discussing it, and I thought you wanted to lynch him if he hadn't shown up in 24 hours, and I don't lynch people who I don't think are around on principle (I will relax this at deadline btw, but I don't believe in doing so with like a week left on the clock).

--

@math, 889 - I don't think anyone is hard-townreading ruru besides oxy. I was townreading ofrzh and kinda vaguely town on oxy at the time and ruru was somewhere around nullscum. I thought oxy was pushing for a lynch on drixx. At the time oxy was townreading all three of us.

Also oxy's been hard-townreading ruru/ofrzh since literally page 2, and explicitly refuses to re-evaluate those reads and I couldn't get him to explain why despite multiple attempts.

--

@oxy,892 - I still think that 398 strongly implies that you wanted to lynch drixx if he was inactive during that timeframe. Three days or whatever later, when we rehashed the wagon, you told me that that's not what that post meant. While it was happening, there was nothing to indicate that you did not want to lynch drixx if he hadn't posted in 24 hours, but there were a lot of things that indicated that that *was* what you wanted, including 398 and you coaxing me to revote when I unvoted when I said I felt uncomfortable and explained in great detail why.

Like I'm not giving you townpoints for giving an opinion that matches my own three days after the incident in question when there's nothing to indicate from your posting *at the time* that that's what you were intending.

--

@ofrzh, 904 - ick self-meta, I know, but I don't think anyone is particularly qualified to answer that here. That is not something I would *ever* do as scum. I panic-lurk. I don't engage people who scumread me. I just avoid conflict as much as possible.

--

@oxy: Why don't you think I tried to understand your POV?

--

@math, 906 - why the fuck do we ever no-lynch here? Like I know I'm town but I'd *much* prefer you lynch me over a no-lynch cuz you'll at least get info from how the wagon was formed ffs.

[skitter30]

@math, 906 - why the fuck do we ever no-lynch here? Like I know I'm town but I'd *much* prefer you lynch me over a no-lynch cuz you'll at least get info from how the wagon was formed ffs.

[skitter30]

I'll be back in a bit.

[skitter30]

Ok, before that happens I want to make a post detailing exactly what my reads are and another going through this wagon.

Also @math: saying that you want to no-lynch or vote drixx and then falling back on me when that idea gets some resistance after you say that my posts are kinda townie and after I say I'm fine with it is not exactly a good look.

Or tldr: why exactly are you voting me and not drixx right now?

[skitter30]

Fine, whatever. I don't really have time to detail this before deadline.

Just don't lynch me before I lay out exactly what my reads are cuz I'm going to flip town and hopefully you guys will pay some amount of attention to that. (Ie I can do this in a few hours from now)

Also after I flip town I want everyone (cough math) reconsider oxy cuz his posts are incredibly pocket-y and just feel fake.

[skitter30]

I don't really have a large amount of time over the next couple of days to try to derail this so if this is going to end with a me-lynch I want to lay out my reads before that happens. (and yeah I never get nk'd today, can't project with certainty past that without knowing how future phases go)

-> Oxy I think is pocketing people and trying to artifiically make a townbloc and his posts just feel super fake to me. They seem to designed to get people to agree with him or townread him. I also feel like he's looking for mislynches that he can push through (the scioness thing, the pin vote/unvote was horrific, the drixx thing, now me). I absolutely do not townread him and I don't get why Math is and I really, really want people to re-evaluate him because he doesn't feel genuine to me.

-> Scioness, in contrast, feels very nuanced and like her thought process and projection in general makes sense. (I don't think that's a slip). I never understood most of the reasons people have been giving to scumread her.

-> ofrzh is incredibly obvtown and just bleeds town with like every other post and like don't lynch him.

-> eth0s was probably town and given the deadline I'm fine just going with that for today but I would re-evaluate tomorrow. Math I don't particularly like and I have no idea why the fuck he thinks no-lynching is ever a good idea here.

-> Drixx has been like absent for a lot of the game and I don't have a really good feel for him this game. His read on me yesterday felt kinda like he was shading me and building up to a vote on me tbh. I do agree with him on oxy but I'm kinda wondering now if he saw that oxy was under scrutiny so decided to push there anyways. I do think that in a town!oxy world drixx is more likely to be scum and vice versa.

-> nsg hasn't really given me a reason to townread her. Like I don't really scumread her and I don't really townread her. She just kinda is. I do still think she was active lurking, but yeah. I do think that math is probably able to read her and I'd probably just let him figure it out; I think that works unless it's just math/nsg.

-> ruru I'm kinda conflicted on and like kinda gutscumread her - she feels like reserved kinda? Like out of the main swing of things? Like she doesn't really know how to interact with the thread almost? She has a certain awkwardness to her that I kinda scumread. That being said I do like some of her posts individually and I do like her thought process sometimes.

-> I kinda gut-townread pin but I don't know how to articulate it.

------

Scum!oxy I think leads to a higher chance of town!drixx and town!nsg and town!ethos

town!oxy makes scum!drixx and/or scum!nsg more plausible

scioness/ruru don't make sense to me

scioness/oxy don't make sense to me

ruru/eth0s don't make sense to me

I don't think oxy/pin is a thing.

[skitter30]

Lynching skitter30 is mechanically correct by far

If you want to risk it in more than one way, lynching Drixx is most likely to hit scum imo, and is probably highest information due to how many players talked about his wagon

Yeah, I agree that I'm probably the best lynch mechanically and I laid out exactly where I'm at so I think I said everything important and like it would be nice if people actually paid some amount of attention to that after I flip; I really hate it when people ignore me once I'm gone.

(Btw for your meta dive I never flip scum here; I'm like waaaaay out of my scumrange here.)

I'm going to VOTE: drixx cuz I do think he has a fairly decent chance of hitting scum by PoE and I townread most other people more.

I have a shit-ton of hw that I gotta do by Thursday so I'll check back in in a few hours and if people have things they urgently want me to answer lmk.

[skitter30]

(Btw for your meta dive I never flip scum here; I'm like waaaaay out of my scumrange here.)

And fwiw I can confirm that this is accurate

This really sucks but there's a definite bright side to not running up prs

Yeah this basically; I don't ever respond to pressure like this as scum.

If you don't think that I flip scum I think you should try to analyze the wagon by staying off of it and forcing the sketchy people to vote and see how they justify it.

[skitter30]

You just made my ability to analyse it based on that null though

No offence because I think you generally have really good reads (see open 711)

But I think you sometimes spew TOO much

What just happened case in point

Yeah I do that sometimes

(I sometimes tell scum how they ought to be playing/defending something by mistake and that's also why I try to ask super open-ended questions since otherwise I tend to ask leading questions that guide people by telling them the answer I want to hear / the answer I think is 'correct')

[skitter30]

@math: saying that you want to no-lynch or vote drixx and then falling back on me when that idea gets some resistance after you say that my posts are kinda townie and after I say I'm fine with it is not exactly a good look.

Also after I flip town I want everyone (cough math) reconsider oxy cuz his posts are incredibly pocket-y and just feel fake.

Soooo what's your read on Dino? Because first you throw some shade saying that his push on you could make him look scummy, and then you tell everyone and specifically Dino to reconsider his read on Oxy...

@Skitter

Probably town in general, especially given eth0s, but in a micro context voting me after saying {drixx/no-lynch} was kinda weird, but he fleshed that out subsequently; also no-lynching is never a good idea here.

I think that he has good reads and I don't get why he has such a vastly different read on oxy than me and I want him to at least consider my perspective.

[skitter30]

@ruru, 1004 - Yeah I was looking at that and thought I was missing something. Scioness/ruru doesn't make sense to me, but if scum!oxy then I think you're a potential partner cuz of your eth0s vote.

Basically I just want to make sure people have a chance to respond before they get lynched for not posting because I don't think that's inherently AI; on principle I don't/won't lynch people who aren't here with like a week left on the clock. If it had spread out over three days, the person in question would have presumably checked in at some point like seen that people want them to post something. If they checked in and acknowledged people but ignored the pressure I think that's worth pursuing. Imposing a deadline but the person doesn't check in at all over three days is indicative of site-flaking to me and isn't an inherently lynchable offense to me, even though I think it's anti-town. Like I don't lynch slots for site-flaking even though I don't like it. So like if that wagon had built over three days but drixx didn't log in at all I would have made sure he was getting prodded etc, but like I wouldn't support a lynch on him for that.

@pin, 1005 - I don't get why you're townreading drixx. And like, I keep on saying I scumread oxy cuz he's scummy to me. And like how would me persisting in saying that he's scummy despite great resistance help me not get lynched exactly? IE I don't understand the connection you're drawing between 'me saying oxy is scummy' and 'saving myself from getting lynched'.

[skitter30]

@ruru, 1004
@pin, 1005 - I don't get why you're townreading drixx. And like, I keep on saying I scumread oxy cuz he's scummy to me. And like how would me persisting in saying that he's scummy despite great resistance help me not get lynched exactly? IE I don't understand the connection you're drawing between 'me saying oxy is scummy' and 'saving myself from getting lynched'.

Skitter for real, don't make me repeat the same things I have already stated. I said I don't believe Drixx is scum because I think scum is between you, ruru and Scioness, and bot you and ruru pushed for a Drixx lynch and you panicking makes me believe you knew it was a mislynch.

About your read on Oxy, I think you're trying to town it up by scumreading a player who has been townread by many; "scum would try to deviate attention to another mislynchable player; instead, I'm going to stick to my read on the townie player so they don't see any inconsistency"

The last time we did this I pointed out that you're using circular logic and you never responded to that. You're townreadig drixx cuz you think me/ruru/scioness are scummy, but me/ruru/ at least are scummy because you're townreading drixx. Townreading someone cuz you dislike how the wagon formed on them is kinda silly imo. You're not actually townreading him for anything he did, but for things that happened around him. Like I totally get why you'd be suspicious of the wagon but I think that townreading the player it formed on solely for that reason is silly.

Why does scum!me panic at a mislynch that someone else is driving exactly? Why don't I let it go through?

And your explanation for my read on oxy is incredibly WIFOM-y; there's like twelve easier things for me to be doing here.

@oxy, 1016 - I was posting that way cuz there were like six p-edits in the time it took me to write that out and it happened faster than I could post. I just didn't write 'p-edit' each time a new post came up that made me think something else. Yeah I was just writing exactly what I was thinking at the time.

@ofrhz I'm with you that a skitter green flip doesn't give a ton of info, though i don't think it gives none. I

think if skitter flipped green, I'd look harder at Pin, nsg, mathdino, and less hard at drixx.

I'm not actually confident in that conclusion, however.

This is a hilariously bad understanding of the of the gamestate

Ofrzh like bleeds town and isn't voting me. Math is very, very probably town and has a great track record on reading NSG, and said he'd just bus her if he were scum with her; given their particular dynamic I think you just trust his read on her irregardless of math's alignment, so NSG's probably town.

I'm town (I know you don't believe that now but you'll see that once I flip).

Assuming the above, there has to be two scum in {oxy/ruru/scioness/drixx/pin}.

Hey, notice how ruru's been scumreading me for like two weeks but took her sweet time to vote me when a wagon actually popped up?

Hey, notice how Drixx was building up to a scumread on me (for bad reasons mind you, in a fashion kinda similar to what he tried to pull in 1797 with town!me and scum!him) and is shading me but is sitting on his oxy vote despite a wagon building on me and talk of him getting lynched?

I'm going to flip town. Scum know that. They know that there's a lot of very strong townreads on a bunch of people and that the game is rapidly becoming POE'd. Being on a wagon that results on my townflip won't be such a great look for them I'm basically a compromise lynch and that the reasons for scumreading me are largely based on the fact that I unvoted a wagon that went to L-1 in twenty minutes a week ago.

After I flip town, you look in the pool of {drixx/ruru/pin/oxy/scioness} in that order imo based on how this wagon formed (or isn't forming how the case may be). IE drixx is like the first person you look at here; he becomes more scummy with my townflip, not less so.

Or, tldr: the way that this wagon is *not* forming when I basically offered to be mislynched is sketchy as fuck, given that there's more than five people who scumread me enough to lynch me and/or think it's mechanically optimal, and it's going to be analyzed after I flip town, and I suspect that's why it slowed. (Or at least, I hope you guys analyze it )

Like I'm fine being mislynched (not really, it will be my first time getting mislynched on MS which kinda sucks but whatever it'll advance the gamestate) but I'm making very, very certain to indicate exactly where I think you ought to be looking next based on my reads and how the wagon formed before I go.

tunnel the sh*t out of ruru after that lame "fuck it if I'm wrong I'm wrong vote".

+1

This is how you should be looking at my wagon.

[skitter30]

I'm at a hotel with incredibly shitty wifi and ms keeps crashing so like I'll try to be around but no promises.

[skitter30]

My internet keeps on cutting out but I'm around and like I'm trying to read but it crashes before I can post anything

ruru/drixx makes a certain amount of sense in a weird way but I don't know how to articulate it exactly.

Drixx partners in order are probably something like: ruru, pin, scioness, nsg/math (lumping together cuz I townread math and I trust his read on her), ofrzh, oxy.

I really would only consider {ruru/pin/scioness} though.

Also I am willing to reconsider oxy given the events of the past ~2 pages.

[skitter30]

Yeah that basically.

Like it's *weird* but not in a way that I can rule out.

I feel like she's almost *too* focused on my unvote if that makes sense.

Like this has been percolating for a couple of days but I really don't know how to articulate it but there's something very wrong with the drixx wagon, and also how focused she was on it and it's aftermath.

I think she may have voted cuz she saw her partner getting wagoned and oxy was pushing a lynch within like a day (yes I'm aware we have different opinions on what was happening but that's what it looked like to me and it's possible that what she thought was happening too) and she wanted the towncred? Does that make sense? Idk.

She has a whole alternate explanation for what she thought was happening like she was bluffing and not really intending for the wagon to actually end in a lynch or something.

[skitter30]

Also the fact that drixx thinks it should be {me/him} but he's sitting on an oxy vote is bizarre and feels wrong.

[skitter30]

Also the fact that drixx thinks it should be {me/him} but he's sitting on an oxy vote is bizarre and feels wrong.

Maybe I'm very ego-centric, but I kinda feel like drixx is settling for shading me and calling for a lynch on me without actually doing anything to advance it cuz the last time he tried to start a push on me it didn't exactly end too well for him (referring to 1797).

Like if he voted me I think he knows I'd analyze the fuck out of his vote and I don't think he'd want to be on my townflip after that.

That's the best I can come up with for why he isn't voting me right now. Like posting 1071 but not voting me is bizarre as fuck.

Also I'm very confused why he won't claim? Scum!him should always claim a PR here I think?

[skitter30]

Oh I should also mention scum!drixx might self-hammer?

[skitter30]

Hey, it was the last two days of Passover and I'm kinda v/la till tomorrow, but I'll try to post thoughts and catch up in a few hours; if not, definitely tomorrow.

[skitter30]

To start off I'm going to VOTE: ruru and see where this goes since I townread her the least.

I'm going to try to not-wall-post as I catch up and just like respond to interesting posts individually since I know that the walls are hard to read. Let's see how long I manage to do that; sorry for spam-posting in advance.

[skitter30]

What makes you think that?

I think odds are at least one scum was on the wagon.

Why did you want to lynch me yesterday, and why do you want to lynch me now?

Bolded is kinda shallow. Like it's a generic observation that kinda shades the whole wagon without actually doing anything to find the scum that you think might be on the wagon.

[skitter30]

Also why did NSG leave her vote on Oxy?

SS's hammer on her nullread stands out to me

but that's just one of the things I found weird about her recent play.

Yeah OK post-by-post is silly; maybe page-by-page instead or something.

I don't find that to be a reason inherently to scumread someone at all given the fact that it was like hours before deadline.

------

1152

62 actually reads kinda scummy to me since it seems like she's too hesitant with her vote; being nervous to leave her vote on a scumread overnight a day into a two-week-phase is kinda weird to me.

236 - she still hasn't explained where she was going with that question - honestly it kinda looks like busy work to me. The survey has still not been demonstrated to have any direct bearing to the game or to scumhunting. It looks like she's trying to engage with people, but it isn't over anything actually game-advancing and/or meaningful.

434 - and why does town!ruru make that post either. It's NAI to me. All the posts I haven't directly mentioned are NAI to me.

727 - No, it isn't? She's arguing that I'm scummy cuz I was trying to get one of oxy/scioness lynched during their 1v1, which never happened (if you'd like to argue otherwise show me where it happened), and we explicitly talked about that at the time.

----

1157 - ruru, why aren't you talking about my vote on drixx? Why are you focusing on scioness's?

----

I guess aside from Mathdino's read on NSG, I don't really see anything that indicates NSG is town.

Agreed, but he really does have that good of a track-record of reading her I think.

[skitter30]

(Also I was trying to do other things with my vote. There's no point in trying to lynch the person I find scummiest when we have like 3 AFKs.)

Um, the point of the game is to lynch the person you find scummiest, not the 3 afks?

Like the deadline was rapidly approaching. There was a wagon on me. You've been scumreading me for like a week and half. I basically told people to vote me. And you're not voting me cuz you want to vote an afk just before deadline when there's a wagon on like your biggest scumread.

I don't get it.

----

He's a pretty strong player. I'm guessing he got nk'd cuz he was rapidly PoE'ing the game? I don't find him to be an odd target tbh; I was actually half-expecting him to be the nk.

--

Now, about Dino: I'm glad and pissed at the same time that he died and flipped VT.

Snipped for brevity.

Math wasn't conf-town. He's a strong player but like his reads aren't absolute? You shouldn't just sheep him just cuz he's dead and you know he's town; you should think about them critically and decide whether or not they make sense.

About ruru: I fucked up that part, I meant to say that if skitter flipped scum, ruru would be obv!scum and if skitter flipped town, ruru could still be scum and she would have the chance to fakeclaim. ruru being the obvious partner of skitter is because PoE and because her vote on her saying "fuck it if I'm wrong I'm wrong" which seemed so awkward to me.

Why would she frame her vote like that for voting partner!me? And, like, why wouldn't scum!me and scum!her talk about it in scumchat to make sure it wasn't awkward? Like why wouldn't we talk about how to write a bussing post to make sure she got maximum bussing points out of it?

---

@pin, 1206 - math's basically saying that he's using cold-meta to try to read me, but that based on my onsite scum games, I'm out of my scumrange. However, those are out of date (I last rolled scum in like August or something), so he can't be completely sure, so while he townreads me on meta, he thinks it's a good idea to back-up that read mechanically.

[skitter30]

Yeah this. I think scioness' progression up to her drixx vote makes a lot of sense given the context.

----

@skitter - what are the viable scumteams with ruru in it?

Possible ruru partners, based on interactions, in order: oxy; pin/NSG; ofrzh; scioness.

This is solely based on how well they make sense in the context of being a partner with ruru, and not in the context of how likely I think they are to be town independent of that.

I'm having a really hard time trusting math's read on oxy rn. The most compelling reason for me to townread oxy is that if oxy's scum, his partner likely would have told him to tone down the LAMIST stuff. I'm still trying to decide if I trust this, and I'm tending towards yes even though my gut tells me not to.

Like logically he's probably town but my gut tells me otherwise and I'm trying to reconcile that.

I see nothing to rule out pin/ruru or nsg/ruru on associatives. I'm probably going to trust Math on NSG but pin's townread has become a bit weaker cuz of PoE.

Ofrzh probably not a partner with ruru given how he keeps on circling back to voting her. Like it's distancing but not enough for me to completely discount them as partners.

I don't think scioness starts a major push on ruru just before deadline when she wasn't going to be around.

So viable scumteams with ruru that I'm actually considering: oxy, pin, ofrzh. Except I'm kinda townreading all of them.

The problem is that I'm kinda townreading like everyone except her to some degree or another so like I know I have to be wrong somewhere.

Also until we get a scumflip I try to focus on individual scumminess and not choose who to vote based on associatives; I've gotten screwed over a lot trying to vote on associatives instead of focusing on an individual player's scumminess.

Aside, I really don't feel scum!scioness right now tbh.

[skitter30]

In post 817, Drixx wrote:
This is pretty spot on. Skitter is good enough to take it to a win though.

It was a him-or-her situation and he knew he was town so I guess this shouldn't be read too deeply into but yeah.

Scum!drixx basically said the exact same thing about me the last time we played so like that line set off major red flags to me tbh.

------

It was looking like you or him. If you're town, you don't know he's town, so obviously you prefer he gets lynched. If you're scum, you know he's town, so obviously you prefer he gets lynched.

Right, so I obviously didn't want to get lynched, but I feel like you aren't actually trying to figure out which of the two scenarios you outlined was happening. Like I feel like you're looking for scum on the wagon and like you scumread me, but you aren't trying to figure out the motivation of my vote.

------

??????????

I wanted to get the AFKs to talk before lynching anyone how do you STILL not understand this if you're town

When did I do this?? I was having some doubts about SS but I voted on you. Your posts are making less and less sense as the game progresses...

Given the fact that the start of 1178 is clearly talking about my analysis of the gamestate in 1003 and your vote on me just before deadline, I assumed that the parenthesis at the end of 1178 was also talking about your vote on me just before deadline. Since that's apparently not what you meant, what were you referring to in the parenthesis at the end of 1178?

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Ah, lol - this is actually directed at Ruru. I don't think I'm lynching ruru today without a red check or something

I disagree with a significant number of the posts you're using to townread her and I explained why. I don't understand why you're townreading her this strongly.

[skitter30]

Like logically he's probably town but my gut tells me otherwise and I'm trying to reconcile that.

Have you eaten any sketchy seafood lately? That could explain your upset stomach. Outside of maybe perhaps me, do you have any scum reads, by poe or otherwise? Or are those Pin/Sajj (but not sajj right now)?

I said it a few lines down. The only person I'm actively scumreading is ruru, which means I'm wrong on my townreads somewhere but I don't know where.

[skitter30]

Gonna try looking from another angle. I was thinking that Math being targeted night 1 was odd. Like I had a feeling he wasn’t a PR based on how he took control of the game from the outset, and the only other reason to lynch him otherwise is his ability to game solve.

Who do you think should have been a nk then?

Scummy post...

I don't think so tbh. The nk was likely to be math or maybe oxy last night imo. There weren't that many nks that made much sense given the gamestate.

[skitter30]

Really? I didn't read it that way. Like that question doesn't really have PR overtones to me tbh.

[skitter30]

If I think it's NAI, why would I analyze it?

Because you're saying you're scumreading me but you're not voting me and you're not trying to interact with me so it feels like you're content to just say you're scumreading me without doing anything about it.

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I am going to quote everything here for context because originally you implied I'm trying to lynch AFKs:

(Also I was trying to do other things with my vote. There's no point in trying to lynch the person I find scummiest when we have like 3 AFKs.)

I originally read this as you saying that you wanted to lynch the 3 afks instead of the person you found scummiest but that's apparently not what you meant?

But now I think you were trying to say 'why should I bother trying to lynch someone when it won't happen given that there's 3 people afk'? Is that accurate? Can you just like rephrase the bit from 1178 cuz I think I misread it?

-----

Do you really not see what Ofrhz is talking about? I think you should be able to see what Ofrhz is talking about. I would understand if you disagreed with an argument like, "it seems like a stretch to suggest that scum!sajj would so blatantly pr hunt" but it doesn't make sense to me that you wouldn't see it.

It looked to me like she was saying she thought that Math was the obvious nk, and that she was surprised that ofrzh thought otherwise. I really didn't read it as having PR overtones.

Skitter, I'm town reading ruru for a lot of reasons, and you'll have to forgive me for not making another big wall explaining it. The thing is, I was pretty strongly scum reading you, mathdino was town reading you, there are reasons to believe you weren't nearly his strongest town read, and now you're building scum teams with my number one town read and people who I would have a hard time believing she could be scum with, even if I was scum reading her. I believe it's probably <50% that you are actually scum, but even if you are town, your reads on sajj, ruru, and myself leave me scratching my head.

So, no, I'm not dropping my town read because you don't agree with me on a few posts

.

I didn't ask you to drop your read on her? I asked you to explain it better, or to like respond to my reasoning. Like ruru is the person I'm townreading the least. I'm trying to understand your POV cuz you feel quite strongly otherwise, but like if you don't engage with me about it I can't exactly do that.

Also it's kinda disingenuous to use 'I'm building scum teams with your number one townread' as a reason to find me sketchy when I'm literally answering the question ofrhz asked me: 'what are the plausible scumteams with ruru in it?' It's not like I just brought it up out of thin air. I explained my answer to that question as best as I know how.

-----

Skitter - do you think we can win the game by poe at this point?

Probably. Once we get a scumflip, very likely.

I don't know if PoE'ing teams is super helpful at this time though. I think it's best just to look for individual scumminess and look for partners after a redflip.

[skitter30]

Also it's kinda disingenuous to use 'I'm building scum teams with your number one townread' as a reason to find me sketchy when I'm literally answering the question ofrhz asked me: 'what are the plausible scumteams with ruru in it?' It's not like I just brought it up out of thin air. I explained my answer to that question as best as I know how.

Ofrhz, please correct me if I'm wrong. Ofrhz dropped his scum read on ruru because he couldn't find a plausible scum partner for Ruru, making it unlikely that his scum read on ruru was correct. I'm in a similar boat, in addition to my reasons for town reading ruru. To answer his question, you proposed scum teams that don't make sense to me based on their interactions. tl;dr: I knew you were answering his question, and I was not implying that you were saying all of this unprompted. I'm saying that your analysis seems flawed in this instance, and in enough instances that I would be hesitant to town read you even if I were otherwise doing so.

I kinda wish you responded to the bit about your ruru townread tbh cuz that's what I'm trying to work out right now.

I don't townread ruru. She's the scummeist person in the game right now imo. I'm aware that she doesn't have any great potential partners, and I acknowledged that. I also acknowledged that I have too many townreads and that I have to be wrong somewhere; it's entirely possible that I'm wrong on someone who I'm townreading who could fit as a partner with ruru if I weren't townreading them. I don't think lack of potential partners is a reason to drop a scumread at this stage of the game. I think that if she's scum, pressuring her may yield further interactions to be analyzed. I don't think that people's individual scumminess should be negated by a teamread analysis.

I don't think that your reasons for townreading her are that great, as I've explained above, and I'm trying to engage with you on it. Like if I'm wrong, it would be helpful if you can explain why instead of just saying 'I already explained', cuz telling me that when I've already shown why your reasons for townreading her aren't really working for me doesn't really help me re-evaluate that read.

p-edit: Yeah, but I have too many townreads, and a ruru scum-flip would make them less townie in my eyes, so I need to include them when analyzing potential partners.

Like I guess that I'm saying that I don't townread them enough to discount them as a partner given a ruru scumflip. Like I do townread them independently, but if ruru flipped scum I'd need to reconsider them in that light.

[skitter30]

@ruru, 1273 - you don't have to be voting me right now, but I feel like you're scumreading me but not trying to actually do anything about it. I don't know how to explain that better. Like you scumread me. You think that there's scum on the wagon. I was on the wagon. You didn't follow up on my vote today. It feels off to me. Like to me the logical place for you to look for scum on the wagon would be me given that you're already scumreading me, but you weren't really pursuing that angle until I started bringing it up.

Which vote was the parenthesis in 1178 referring to? Your vote on me at deadline? Or your vote on drixx way earlier in the phase?

I don't understand your last line. I'm explaining that I don't think team-reading is super helpful right now without a scumflip first.

[skitter30]

Okay how about we compromise because spending more energy on ruru right now seems neither fun, nor productive from my PoV. We also disagree on Sajj. Right now she's pretty high in my lynch pool and in the poe scum teams of others, but you've been strongly town reading her all game. Why don't you show why lynching Sajj would be a mislynch? Solving that slot would go a long way to solving this game from my pov.

OK, but from my POV, I'm still trying to sort ruru and trying to understand why you're townreading her would help me with that.

Posts like these are why I think you're a potential ruru partner cuz I'm trying to get you to talk about your townread on her, and I feel like you're deflecting away from that, and you've been doing that since very early on (ie like on page2 you locktowned her and I couldn't get you to explain to me why you wouldn't re-evaluate your locktown reads on ofrzh and ruru from super early-day1).

Like I'm cool with also talking about sajj, but I don't want to turn convo away from ruru altogether cuz she's my best pick for scum atm.

I don't know if it's accurate to say I'm strongly townreading sajj so much as I don't really scum-read her. Her thought processes make a lot of sense to me, and she doesn't feel fabricated to me. I don't find any of the reasons to scumread her to be particularly compelling. (for example, people are saying she's scummy for not voting me just before deadline, but like, her progression and thought process makes sense given the context - she thought it was better to vote a VT soft over running up a possible PR given the deadline, but was townreading me. ie she thought it was mechanically probably a good idea but didn't actually want to. Like her progression there makes sense.)

-----

This is like a whole lot of weird vague assumptions, I don't even know

Whereas this doesn't make much sense to me. You're looking for scum on the wagon and you think I'm scum and I was on the wagon but you didn't talk to me about it. I find that weird.

Drixx and to some extent eth0s/NSG

Ok, I thought you were talking about your vote on me at deadline. Since you apparently weren't, let's talk about that now - why'd you take so long to vote me?

But you gave no explanation for why it should be ignored (doesn't fit your narrative?)

I mean, it's a general philosophy I have for scumhunting. Associatives are useful, but I've found that if I put stock on that *over* indivdiual scumminess, I tend to get seriously off-track and have gotten screwed over more than once by following associatves over individual-scumminess; it's happened to me more than once that I voted on associatives over individual scumminess and, like, the associative-based read was wrong and the individual-scumminess based read was right. So, like, I'm trying to learn from these mistakes and like not do that.

And like, scum know all the answers and they can manipulate associatives to mess with you. (in the spoiler. Scumteam was seph/implosion. Implosion fucked with the associatives on purpose *a lot* to make people view the game as either seph/flubber or wave/implosion, and while I was never going to believe seph/flubber, the wave/implosion narrative made *a lot* of sense and that's what lost the game ultimately.)

class; I'll look through the ruru/oxy scioness-posts later.

[skitter30]

@ofrzh, 1285. So the tldr of your ruru townread is that you think her playstyle is inherently passive and that in that framework, her playstyle has been consistent?

Thing is that I find that passiveness to be scummy, even if it's part of her personality. For example, I don't think that going after the lurkers is town-indicative like you do; I think it's low-hanging-fruit-y. It's a lot easier to make it look like you're busy by pressuring the lurkers than pressuring the active players who'll, like, respond to you. Like for scum, it's a lot easier to take the stance of 'let's pressure the lurkers' than to take the stance 'I think active player A is scummy because of the following reasons'.

Like not responding to votes on her is weird. She just feels kinda out of it, if that makes sense? Like not really following the main threads? I just get this overall vibe that she isn't really engaging with people. I think that scum!ruru may have thought that a lurker wagon on drixx may have been a good push for that reason.

I don't know if I'm giving scioness the benefit of the doubt so much as I don't think the reasons people are scumreading her are compelling. Like the PR question wasn't a PR question to me, and it's kinda a reach imo to read that question as PR hunting.

I think that there's probably one scum off and one scum on the wagon, if I had to guess.

In order, off the wagon, I think scum is probably: {ruru, pin, NSG}.

On the wagon, I think scum is probably: {oxy, ofrzh, scioness}

Also, the notion of 'townreading someone by PoE' is kinda bizarre to me. Like I can understand 'not scumreading someone by PoE', but to me that's distinct from *townreading* someone.

-------

In 1291, Oxy highlights some of Scioness's commentary on ofrzh's 1234.

What's pinging me about 1234 is that ofrzh assumes that scioness is going to push a ruru/ofrzh team and is pre-emptively defending against that. I don't think scioness had proclaimed anywhere "I think the team is ruru/ofrzh", so this is kinda weird response?

Actually I went back to reread 1234, and that whole post is kinda weird? Ofrzh says he needs to show he's townie to defend against scioness pushing ruru/ofrzh, and he does so by voting scioness.

Like if he thinks scioness is town, he shouldn't be voting her there.

If he thinks scioness is scum, it makes sense to vote her but it's weird to frame the vote as a 'defense' to something a scumread hasn't really pushed yet. Like for ofrzh to vote scioness cuz she wants to push a ruru lynch to defend himself is a weird reaction.

Like the vote in 1234 is some sort of weird preventative OMGUS framed as defending himself from a scioness push almost?

(1311 kinda articulates the weirdness)
-----

Like I can kinda already see skitter doing this with Oxy with her whole "Oxy is townish but also could be scum." Does that make sense?

You're kinda stripping away the nuance from my read.

My read on oxy is: I understand the reasons math was townreading him logically but my gut still feels like there's something off there. I guess I can accept him as a provisional townread atm and stop pushing him for now, but I do think he makes a lot of sense as a ruru partner, so if ruru ever flipped red, my townread on him would have become weaker in that specific context.

Also I don't understand why you're framing a scioness push on you as a scumslip? Like I don't see a scumslip here, so this is another example of people pushing scumreads on her that I don't really get and/or don't find compelling.

note to self for later: I got up to 1311.

[skitter30]

@ofrzh, 1314.

A few things.

1. Rewind back to your Drixx vote before deadline yesterday, in 1038, and pretend you don't know yet that he was going to flip green. Who were the potential drixx partners?

2. Rewind back to your ruru vote yesterday before deadline, in 1023 - why weren't you considering her potential partners then?

3. "If scioness kept pushing to push for a ruru lynch, I would expect scioness to start scumreading me .... " OK, but like, that hadn't really happened yet, and she wasn't really pushing the ofrzh/ruru angle, so it's weird to defend against that before it starts happening. Like why bring it up now at all?

4. "If ruru flips green, wouldn't that vindicate me?????" No, since you could be white-knighting her the towncred, especially since you seem to be trying to pull that right in this quote.

------

also inb4 skitter is going to hate 1312 since those are her two biggest town reads. Skitter, please just let me have this for a little while, and then I'll work with you on the ruru slot as long as you want. You have my word.

I actually dislike it cuz it feels like you're egging on a fight. The fact that the individuals involved are ofrzh and scioness doesn't particularly bother me.

-----

also I think skitter has a point about validating scumreads with associations.

What do you mean by this?

[skitter30]

Let me ask you a question. Did you have a scum partner for ruru when you hopped on her wagon yesterday?

So when I say things like "I understand scioness' thought-process", I mean things like this, cuz this is exactly what I was thinking (see my last post). Things like this make me think her thought-process isn't fabricated, because it's following a thought-process that I understand and agree with.

(Sorry, I asked the same thing later cuz I hadn't read this page yet)

I didn’t consider who ruru’s potential scum partners could have been until Oxy’s post that I responded to.

So this answer is a little bit weird for me cuz here you're townreading ruru that strongly for not having partners when this wasn't a consideration for you yesterday.

Is there anyone else you're townreading cuz of PoE this way? Or, more accurately, is there anyone else you'd be to lynching cuz of PoE read at this time?

(Again, for the record, I think there's a distinction between 'I don't think X is scum because I can't find partners for them' and 'I am townreading X')

-----

By defending myself, I would help people eliminate possible scumteams with ruru in it, so I am defending ruru by extension. Or that's how I see it anyway.

Not sure what to think about this. Like it's kinda backwards and kinda scummy and kinda makes the associatives between you and her superstrong, but makes sense from the POV you're espousing I think? I don't really think partners tie themselves together this strongly?

Idk, this is like a really weird thing to do.

-----

Okay but that's not really what you said:

I think it's best just to look for individual scumminess and look for partners after a redflip.

It sounded like you didn't want it to be part of the discussion at all, rather than a piece of (unreliable) evidence.

The quote is a one-sentence soundbyte explaining my POV that I elaborated on later. I think it's an unreliable piece of evidence that can lead town astray (especially without a scumflip) and I therefore don't think it's a particularly fruitful discussion right now.

[skitter30]

In post 1315, Oxy wrote:
also inb4 skitter is going to hate 1312 since those are her two biggest town reads. Skitter, please just let me have this for a little while, and then I'll work with you on the ruru slot as long as you want. You have my word.


I actually dislike it cuz it feels like you're egging on a fight. The fact that the individuals involved are ofrzh and scioness doesn't particularly bother me.

I

feel

like my saying "it would be a very pro town move to continue 1v1'ing for a little while longer." should give you an explicit understanding that I was "egging on a fight."

Was that a scummy thing for me to do?

Or was the sentence, "I actually dislike it cuz it feels like you're egging on a fight." just another way to attach a scummy connotation to an otherwise pro-town action?

Yes, I think that egging on a fight is scummy because it creates a gamestate focusing on two people that makes it easier for other people to get overlooked.

(Like right now NSG/pin aren't really posting. If there's a 1v1 between ofrzh and scioness I think it's fairly likely that other players will be subsumed by the argument and kinda forget to pay attention to the two of them.)

Or, like, think about your 1v1 with scioness - it kinda took over the game and made it kinda hard for people to focus on anything else.

I don't think that creating 1v1s on purpose is a pro-town thing to do.

[skitter30]

Ok, how does purposefully creating a 1v1 *help* anything? Explain to me why this is pro-town.

My point isn't that a 1v1 would make them less likely to post (the point you appear to be addressing). My point is that if they don't post, it's more likely to be overlooked, and that a 1v1 creates a gamestate that overly focuses on two players. Like it creates more room for people not to participate, which is exactly what we don't want.

Also I wouldn't exactly characterize this gamestate as "sitting quietly for them while doing nothing", nor do I believe that creating a 1v1 would solve that problem even if we were to be experiencing it.

[skitter30]

Ok, how does purposefully creating a 1v1 *help* anything? Explain to me why this is pro-town.

I think I have a better read on both Sajj and Ofrhz as a result, and I think you're playing dumb right now (but you aren't dumb...).

I don't think deliberately creating a sub-optimal gamestate is pro-town, and I don't think that you need to do that to get reads on people.

[skitter30]

I'm kinda confused why half the game finds me scummy but there's only one vote on me.

@oxy: Like, once I flip town, can you give some credence to my reads? Lynching scioness after my townflip is like the last thing you want to do here ffs . And like, I don't claim to have perfect reads, but my reads aren't *that* bad that you should just ignore them once I flip; one of my biggest pet-peeves is when I'm dead and people promptly ignore everything I said while I was alive and I'm *right*.

Part of the reason I'm having a lot of trouble figuring you out is cuz we appear to be living in opposite worlds reads-wise and you like just don't make sense to me.

page 52, motivation to read dropping incredibly fast

Like this is exactly why promoting a 1v1 between ofrzh and scioness is an idiotic idea; it'll create an apathetic gamestate that no one wants to read or get involved in. You're promoting things that to me are obviously stupid and like you're clearly a smart dude so it's hard for me to believe that you don't get what I'm saying. And you have bizarre views of the gamestate that are just like ????wtf???? to me, and like you take pride in bullshitting and ugh you just feel really wrong.

And like the fact that you indulge NSG when she asks why you're locktowning ruru but you're deflecting me away from that topic when I ask about it is bizarre.

----

NSG has been bumped up to 'more likely than not town'.

I believe that scum is almost for sure all in {ofrzh, pin, ruru, oxy}.

I kinda hate all of ruru's posting today.

I kinda hate all of oxy's posting from the last couple of pages especially the promoting a 1v1 thing. (not even bringing up everything from day1)

I kinda hate all of ofrzh's posting wrt to explaining his scioness vote.

[skitter30]

Given the drixx townflip can someone explain to me what scum!me was doing during the first drixx wagon?

[skitter30]

Oh my god you literally scumread me on day 1 for trying to pressure eth0s after many pages of Oxy vs. SS like what are these posts

Because I think that deflecting away from an active 1v1 that needs to be resolved is scummy.

I think that deliberately creating a 1v1 is also scummy.

[skitter30]

Like this is exactly why promoting a 1v1 between ofrzh and scioness is an idiotic idea;

it'll create an apathetic gamestate that no one wants to read or get involved in.

@oxy: do you disagree with this? If so, why?

And like the fact that you indulge NSG when she asks why you're locktowning ruru but you're deflecting me away from that topic when I ask about it is bizarre.

And, you know, you ignoring me pointing this out kinda exacerbates the feeling that you're avoiding discussing this topic with me in particular.

As much as I want to policy lynch skitter right now she hasn't yet done anything that's unambiguously scum-motivated and on the other hand 1220 is really not sitting well with me. Also if skitter flips scum, I still think SS is a lot scummier than ofrhz. So I'll be rereading more SS iso now

Wait, why do you want to policy me?

[skitter30]

@oxy:

I mean, you've been deflecting and/or ignoring my questions about your ruru read since early day 1, when you were townreading *me*, so sure, that explanation makes loads of sense.

The discussion between scioness and ofrzh *did* lead to some walls, before you even said they should have a 1v1. In fact some of the walls were on page 52, the very page that nsg referenced not wanting to read

Like my point has already been proven and its mind-boggling to me that you think that promoting a 1v1 (likely to produce walls from scioness at the very least) is healthy in a game where a not-insignificant number of people repped out (eth0s) and/or were apathetic because of the density of the game (nsg) and/or refused to read the game upon replacing in (math) and/or never caught up because of it (drixx).

[skitter30]

VOTE: oxy

[skitter30]

Also, I can't be blamed for walls people write before I ask them battle for my amusement.

I mean, no, you cant be, but given that that a dialogue between them just before you asked for a 1v1 featured wallposts from both sides, it's reasonable to assume that a 1v1 would also feature wallposts.

Yeah, they don't *have* to sling wallposts back and forth during a 1v1, but given their dynamic just before you asked for one, it does seem likely that a 1v1 *would* feature wallposts, and I'm having trouble believing you don't see that.

And a 1v1 with wallposts is literally the last thing we want in this game given that previous iterations of just that made the game apathetic and were a significant contributing factor for why people were unable or unwilling to catch up.

[skitter30]

I'm having trouble believing that you think this is a useful conversation for anybody.

You're deliberately promoting a suboptimal gamestate for your own amusement. This is probably the scummiest thing that has happened all game imo, and instead of defending your position (ie explaining why the 1v1 should happen given that it will likely induce apathy), you're calling me scummy for calling you out on your bullshit.

I'm probably not switching votes this phase.

[skitter30]

I'm having trouble believing that you think this is a useful conversation for anybody.

You're deliberately promoting a suboptimal gamestate for your own amusement. This is probably the scummiest thing that has happened all game imo, and instead of defending your position (ie explaining why the 1v1 should happen given that it will likely induce apathy), you're calling me scummy for calling you out on your bullshit.

I'm probably not switching votes this phase.

You are deliberately twisting words and trying to spin events to fit a narrative - any narrative! - that either ends without you being lynched, or without you spewing anyone else.

The lack of reason coming from your slot is the clear scum claim that I expected from you

.

I think it is very pro-town for me to 1v1 you here.

I don't foresee my vote moving, either.

Go for it. My slot never gets resolved via nk, there's no vig, and I'm basically always going to be a question mark for people through endgame. Better I get mislynched now then in LYLO.

Italics: You lot appear to be living in some sort of bizarro world where everything is backwards tbh cuz people are pushing things that just don't make sense to me.

(Aside, I like how you're framing this as me *trying to not get lynched* when I all but asked to get lynched phase 1. Nice touch.)

Lynching scioness after my townflip is an incredibly bad idea. You lynch {ruru, oxy, ofrzh/pin, nsg, scioness} in that order. (Yes, I'm fully aware that I put ruru before oxy while voting oxy, no, I don't want to elaborate right now.)

Oxy being alive in 5way lylo is sketchy. Oxy being alive in 3way lylo is even sketchier, and if he's town, should be an *incredibly* strong indicator that his reads are upside down.

(Aside, scum!me killing math last night is probably one of the stupidest things scum!me could have possibly done given the gamestate, so pushing "skitter/ofrzh kill math last night" is stupid. It's at best a horrifically bad understanding of the gamestate, and at worst bullshit).

[skitter30]

No, the amusement thing was a joke. I encouraged them to press each other because I wanted to judge an expanded interaction between them, and because I have both of them in my lynch pool and wanted to encourage discussion about why people in my lynch pool would/wouldn't be good lynches.

Also, it's not a given that it will induce apathy. Eth0s was busy. NSG didn't like it, and I apologizing for them walling at one another, NSG. But at the core of this argument is the idea that posts make people not want to play, and that's a great argument for why we shouldn't wall. It's not an argument against having interactions.

Who is your partner? Is it Ofrhz or Sajj?

They *were* having a discussion about just that *as* you pushed for a 1v1. I don't understand why a 1v1 helps solve the game at all.

No, not a *given* that it will induce apathy, but likely given that *doing the exact same thing earlier in the game* caused that ffs.

The core of this argument is that "wallposts make it hard for people want to play", and not that "posts make people not want to play".

[skitter30]

WTF that Oxy vote

If you think posting in a way that discourages town play is scummy, I think you should take a hard look at yourself or Scioness or even myself (oops) before Oxy.

You just went from likely town to likely scum with that one vote.

That's not my argument. I'm fully aware that I wallpost and I try to cut down as much as possible.

I'm saying that oxy wanting a 1v1 between you and scioness is more likely to induce wallposts from you and her, which will thus induce apathy.

[skitter30]

@sajj - annoying posting styles include wall posting, not letting unproductive threads of conversation die —> leading to more wall posting, talking about the same shit over and over again without making any headway

Both of which all three of us are guilty of to one extent or another but Oxy? Not really imo

That's not what Skitter is talking about imo. I saw that you are on phone so we can talk about when you fully catch up.

It wasn't.

[skitter30]

O my misreading is a definite possibility

Just like... wallposting is more likely to encourage more wall posting and other bad posting behavior, much more than Oxy encouraging 1v1s imo. That was the gist of my point. I think Oxy has done more to push this game forward (except math but he is more experienced at this game), so I’ve been giving him town cred for this

Pedit this is for Scioness

dw bbs, I won’t vote until I read carefully and/or skitter comes back and explains herself

My argument is that oxy encouraging a 1v1 between you and scioness makes wallposting from you and scioness more likely, which will make the game harder to read and make it harder for other people to participate.

[skitter30]

Oxy being alive in 5way lylo is sketchy. Oxy being alive in 3way lylo is even sketchier, and if he's town, should be an *incredibly* strong indicator that his reads are upside down.

I agree with this to some extent.

I agree with this to a large extent.

[skitter30]

@oxy: explain why you want to lynch scioness after my townflip.

[skitter30]

WTF that Oxy vote

If you think posting in a way that discourages town play is scummy, I think you should take a hard look at yourself or Scioness or even myself (oops) before Oxy.

You just went from likely town to likely scum with that one vote.

That's not my argument. I'm fully aware that I wallpost and I try to cut down as much as possible.

I'm saying that oxy wanting a 1v1 between you and scioness is more likely to induce wallposts from you and her, which will thus induce apathy.

Just to clarify. You're not saying that "posting in a way that discourages town play" is scummy.

You are saying that encouraging others to post, which in turn raises the chance that someone will "post in a way that discourages town play," is scummy.

And you're also not actually claiming that I "post in a way that discourages town play."

Because that wouldn't be a reason to scum read someone anyway.

Heck, you just said that you've been "posting in a way that discourages town play" all game!

So that can't be scummy.

"Posting in a way that discourages town play" is anti-town, not inherently scummy.

Deliberately promoting an environment where people are likely to post that way is scummy because you're encouraging anti-town behavior.

There's a difference between "encouraging people to post" and "encouraging a 1v1 between people who are literally engaging with each other *as* you encouraged the 1v1"; those are not at all the same thing. I don't particularly have a problem with the former. In this gamestate I have a problem with the latter because I believe it will induce apathy and I believe that you know that.

[skitter30]

Ofrhz + Pin

that pair of end of day votes precludes this pretty strongly.
Ofrhz + Skitter - plausible
Ofrhz + Sajj - Less likely than Ofrhz + Skitter but not impossible

Pin + Skitter - Less likely than Ofrhz + Skitter but not impossible
Pin + Sajj - This is possible. I wish we could have seen what would have happened if a sajj wagon had started towards end of day

Skitter + Saj - Less likely than the rest I think because of the strong defenses they have given for one another.

so I guess what I'm saying is I want to lynch Skitter today.

If Skitter flips town, I want to lynch Sajj -> Pin/Ofrhz
If Skitter flips scum, I want to lynch Ofrhz -> Pin/Sajj

VOTE: Skitter30

@skitter30 I was thinking that if you flipped town, that would take the above possible pairs and reduce them to:

Ofrhz + Sajj
Pin + Sajj

Sajj is in both of those pairings, and town would be at 5-man Lylo. Town should probably lynch scum in that situation, don't you think?

I think that this is analysis is built on the assumption that you/ruru are town, neither of which I particularly believe atm.
Like you don't actually seem to scumread scioness, so much as think she's scum by PoE by eliminating the people I think are most likely to be scum, which is why I disagree with this post. (disregarding NSG, I probably agree there).

Like you're not actually reading her on play so much as building an elaborate PoE based on assumptions that aren't obvious, and in doing so, you're also disregarding re-evaluating pin/ofrzh.

And like, if you're scum, this post is basically setting up the mislynch that you'll need to win the game tomorrow.

[skitter30]

@skitter30 There is no way to back up your assertion, but it might be reasonable to expect a slight increase in wall posts over the norm when in a 1v1 situation. I'll give you that. But your case that I am scum because I created a 1v1 to entice sajj and ofrhz to wallpost so that nsg and others wouldn't want to play is so much of a stretch, skitter. And that's the problem. You wouldn't accept such a pained argument from anyone else, and you wouldn't make one as town.

1V1S EARLIER IN THE GAME CAUSED THAT EXACT SCENARIO FOR MULTIPLE PEOPLE FFS.

It made them (eth0s, drixx, nsg; math didn't want to read it) apathetic and made it hard for them to read the game and to particpate.

How is it in any way a stretch to say that there's a fairly decent chance that if we do the same thing as before it'll have the same outcome as before?

[skitter30]

I gotta do some hw before my next class; I'll be around during my break maybe or when I get home tonight.

[skitter30]

I think that this is analysis is built on the assumption that you/ruru are town, neither of which I particularly believe atm.
Like you don't actually seem to scumread scioness, so much as think she's scum by PoE by eliminating the people I think are most likely to be scum, which is why I disagree with this post. (disregarding NSG, I probably agree there).

So you asked me why I would want to lynch sajj tomorrow if you flipped town, and I gave you my analysis.

You disagree with the analysis because it assumes I'm town.

I

feel

like you probably could have expected me to use town!me as a given.

So then what was the point of this conversation?

Because it clearly wasn't an attempt to gauge my thought process and sort me...

Also, here you are telling me that poe is an ineffective method for finding scum.

I mean, clearly you're going to assume that you're town. My point is for everyone else tomorrow: I don't think this is a reasonable assumption.

And I've been trying to gauge your thought process this entire game, but a lot of what you're saying only makes sense to me if you're dumb or acum, and since I don't think you're dumb ...

@ofrzh: I don't think 1v1 == interacting with each other. You two were doing just fine trying to sort each other without oxy egging on a fight.

And while I don't think 1v1 necessarily == wallposts, I do think 1v1 does and will induce apathy.

[skitter30]

Ruru -> oxy -> ofrzh ->pin -> nsg/scioness, barring other developments.

Oxy being alive in 5way is a decent indicator his reads are upside down or he's scum. Oxy being alive in 3way is a strong indicator his reads are upside down or he's scum.

Lynching scioness after me will probably end the game.

Ofrzh's scum equity has gone up a fair bit today.

Yeah, I think I've said everything of import, so knock yourselves out.

[skitter30]

I'm noticing a pattern where I feel like skitter just reads everything as "anti-town but not scummy" when it's convenient and "scummy" when it's convenient

Like there's definitely a distinction but it feels so arbitrary with her. Like spamming the game with stuff nobody wants to read is imo more scummy than encouraging people to 1v1 which may produce stuff nobody wants to read but may produce super useful information.

Case in point: I never noticed 217 until now because both Oxy and SS were spamming the game with stuff nobody wants to read (sorry) and even if I read the words my brain was like shut off.

There's a distinction between being anti-town and scummy; those are not the same thing at all. I don't know what 'when convenient' means. And I'm not being arbitrary; I'm explaining myself as best as I know how. And I feel like a lot of people are stripping away the nuances from what I'm saying in order to make the argument that I'm being inconsistent or fence-sitty or scummy.

And my entire point is 1v1s tend to create environment where the game is spammed with stuff that no one wants to read, so encouraging one is scummy. I don't understand the benefit to encouraging a 1v1 here.

[skitter30]

Hmm, but did Oxy want the game spammed with unproductive posts

or did he want to see more material come from me and Scioness through a 1v1

?

You seem to think he wants the former, but I don’t think he intended for that at all. You kinda made a logical leap where “wanting a 1v1 = wanting more spam.”

The bolded was happening already, literally as he posted it. You two were engaging with each other immediately before and after his post. So what was the point of having a 1v1 on top of that exactly?

1v1s make gamestates worse, not better. We already lived through versions 1-12,000 of this already (see: scioness vs oxy and me vs oxy part I). That's part of what was directly making the game hard/discouraging to read for eth0s/nsg/drixx/math. Hell, I don't want to reread most of that mess ever either. I don't understand why a 1v1 is beneficial given that the effect he wanted (ie ofrhz and scioness debating with each other) was already happening and given that 1v1s tend to harm gamestates.

Like idk if it's "wanting a 1v1 == wanting more spam" so much as it's "wanting a needless 1v1 is scummy because 1v1s tend to create suboptimal gamestates that are hard for people to read"

I feel like I'm living in some sort of bizarro world where people are cool with arbitrary 1v1s because .... ?

[skitter30]

I feel like I'm living in some sort of bizarro world where people are cool with

arbitrary

1v1s because .... ?

Another example of you distorting the situation. No one is rolling dice to determine who 1v1's. It was very much so not arbitrary. Trying to claim it's arbitrary without refuting the reasons I've given for wanting them to continue is just another example of you scum claiming.

Sajj could you please answer ruru's questions. I don't see any reason to keep this day going...

Arbitrary because it was pointless because *they were already doing, in a non 1v1 setting, exactly what you wanted them to do in a 1v1*.

Nobody's managed to explain what *benefit* there would be from that 1v1 given that the outcome you wanted was *already happening* ffs.

And I'm not fucking scum-claiming. I'm saying that you're making like no sense.

[skitter30]

And you couldn't just say: "hey, I think this is a fruitful discussion because of A, B, C, can you guys continue it?"

Like I don't get why a 1v1 was brought up in that context at all.

p-edit: cuz it'll likely creates a sub-optimal game environment for everyone else, which is why I think why it's scummy.

[skitter30]

Nm, oxy -> ofrzh/pin -> ruru -> scioness/nsg.

I feel like ruru's scioness vote, although weird, probably doesn't come from scum in this gamestate given her trajectory on me.

Having a lot of trouble ordering ofrzh/pin/ruru in an order that feels *exactly* right, but this feels approximately right.

------

Also if scum!skitter

has a reason for not wanting more ofrhz/SS interactions

, then I definitely want them to happen before the day ends

This never happened, but sure.

I said I didn't want a 1v1 between ofrzh and scioness. (More precisely, I said I didn't want a 1v1 at all; the fact that the principal actors involved are ofrzh and scioness is not particularly relevant). I have no problem with them interacting.
------

@nsg: I think scioness is town cuz her thought process is nuanced and understandable. I don't feel like she's pushing an angle. She pursues where she thinks scum is even if it's against thread consensus. Often, she's thinking exactly what I'm thinking at the same that I am. Like, she doesn't feel faked or fabricated at all.

[skitter30]

That she's one of the two scums, and that the other is in skitter/Scioness. Right now I suspect skitter being the scum PR and ruru not putting her scumread on L-1 is indicative,

but there's a slight chance that ruru voting Scioness is her way of separating herself from her partner before being lynched

, so even if I believe skitter is her partner, I think it's better to play it safe (if I'm wrong about skitter, we go to LyLo or MyLo and that pressure is suboptimal, especially with Oxy and ofrhz hard townreading ruru)

This is also a really backwards understanding of the current gamestate.

Bolded: neither ruru nor scioness are close to being lynched right now. Why does scum!ruru start a wagon on her partner when there's a nice mislynch on me building?

You use a lot of circular logic to form your reads. Like the logic in this paragraph is kinda backwards? Idk how to articulate why exactly.

Like you think I'm the scum PR because ruru isn't voting me, and ruru isn't voting me cuz I'm the scum PR. You did the same thing with the drixx wagon. Your argument basically boiled down to:

-> Drixx is town because the sketchy people (me/ruru) were voting him

and

-> me/ruru are sketchy because we voted drixx, who you townread.

I've pointed out the circular logic a few times but you never responded to me, but yeah.

so ruru voting one of scioness or skitter at all makes you think that she's scum?

No no, if she voted skitter my theory of skitter being the scum PR would've been disproved

Like this is also kinda backwards? And like pre-emptively basing reads on who the scum PR may be based on a teamread that is not in any way substantiated given that neither of the people involved have flipped yet.

And if I'm the scum PR shouldn't you be voting me? Like isn't that a higher-priority than the goon?

Also, like, I just checked the possible setups. In 1/3 of the setups, *there isn't a scum PR at all* so, like, why is a potential scum PR even a factor in your reads at this stage?

OMG I totally forgot about that, and that could even make more sense for a ruru/skitter scumteam: skitter flips red, ruru gets even more towncred!

Ruru gets more towncred because ... ?

Oxy you change your read on me like a girl changes clothes.

Whenever I do something that goes against your reads, I'm scum; if I do something in favor of your reads, that post seems townie. What do you want me to do, to follow your lead?

I can't vote ruru for some extraordinary reason I can't see? The lack of coordination is killing us.

@ofrhz you say there's one scum between ruru and skitter, I'm scumreading them both, why do I "really want them to be scum" and not just scumreading them both? I don't get it. If skitter flips rolecop/roleblocker, could you PLEASE reconsider your read on ruru?

VOTE: skitter That's L-1.

This vote on me kinda meh? Like you're kinda giving up on your theory for now to please oxy.

Like the bolded basically sounds like you're voting with oxy because you want him to townread you almost?

[skitter30]

I think that pin's hypothesis-testing method is very backwards but I actually think he's very, very probably town despite that.

Also, @pin, just going to point out for like the third time that your narrative of "scum!me pushing a mislynch on drixx but panicking when he got to l-1" does not make sense. Like I couldn't have been protecting my partner since he flipped town, and like scum don't randomly panic at mislynches happening; that's basically like the goal of the game from their POV. It doesn't make sense for scum!me to panic at a day1 mislynch on the IC handed to me on a silver platter that I was never going to be blamed for given the gamestate and how the wagon formed.

Also I hate much of what oxy has said on this page.

[skitter30]

Scum:

-> pushing sub-optimal gamestates (encouraging needless 1v1s; wanting to place people at L-1 to encourage them to post - yes I'm aware that there's controversy over this, yes I still think it was scum-motivated and that he was aiming to push a lynch on someone who wasn't active)

-> posts designed to appeal to people. (With math when he replaced jn; the LAMIST and town-circle posts early on; I still think he was trying to pocket pin early; in the past couple of pages he got pin to vote with him cuz pin wants oxy ro townread him)

-> I feel like he's looking for mislynches (his pin vote/unvote immediately after the first drixx wagon was atrocious; the drixx wagon; me right now - telling ruru he wants her to explore her read on you but at the same time pressuring people to end the day doesn't really match up and kinda feels like he's rushing the day)

[skitter30]

Like there's no one else in the game whis done anything nearly as scummy to me, in both quantity and quality.

Also, I forgot to mention that he deflects away from questions he doesn't feel like answering. He's pretty smooth about it, and the game is moving fairly fast, but I'll eventually realize that he ignored something important from several pages back.

Ruru's vote on you didn't really feel fency to me though? It felt more like she actually thought this was a good idea? Given her trajectory on me scum!her could hop on my wagon easily, knowing it'll score a mislynch, but she doesn't because ...?

Also really, really don't think pin's last post comes from scum- although his understanding of the game is like ???? T
to me, it's been consistent this entire time; like the fact that he remembers exactly who he was townreading or scumreading at the time of the drixx wagon is kinda a towntell as scum!him would have had to fake those thoughts and then remember exactly what he faked two weeks later or however long it was, where as town!him could just report what he was thinking at the time.

Like the consistent detail indicates to me that he isn't faking his thoughts, even if I disagree with like all of it.

Oxy -> ofrzh/ruru -> pin -> scioness/nsg.

Kinda think scum is in the first three.

[skitter30]

Skitter, assuming you're town (i know, a stretch~~~), why does ruru vote for sajj here?

I mean, I just said it more likely than not doesn't come from scum. Idk why scum!her doesn't vote me there.

If you're asking about her place in the list despite this, its cuz I townread the people ahead of her more and cuz I don't scumread ofrzh enough to give him his own tier below her.

[skitter30]

There's definitely 4 people here who want to lynch ruru

I don't think there are.

[skitter30]

@ofrhz @sajj

This is the level of associations reading that I think actually could be detrimental. Too much wifom, too many assumptions. The problem with all of the "scum!x would obviously use this strategy" is that scum!x could have simply used a different strategy.

Things I'm taking to the bank today.
ruru is town.
nsg is town.
skitter, regardless of alignment, has been making some very scummy arguments.

I've only been saying that for like the entire phase.

[skitter30]

@oxy:

A. I disagree with the premises of your hypothetical. (ie I don't think you're town). If I absolutely must indulge in your thought experiment, I'm left with pin/scioness/ofrzh/ruru.

I don't think scioness is scum:

pin/ofrzh ----> I don't know why you're ruling this one out.
pin/ruru ---> probably not super likely given his ruru vote. Not enough for me to rule it out though.
ofrzh/ruru

Like none of these seem implausible enough for me to rule out.

If I absolutely must include scioness:

scioness/pin
scioness/ofrz
scioness/ruru ----> I don't think scioness starts a push on her partner just before deadline at the end of the day1 when she wasn't going to be around.

So I don't particulartly agree with your conclusion that based on PoE, removing me/nsg/you, the obvious lynch ought to be ruru or scioness; strictly looking at teams via PoE, ofrzh or pin make sense in a bunch of pairs too. If it absolutely got down to ruru or scioness I would vote ruru, but, like, I don't get why you're creating dichotomy where it ought to be one of the two - there's a lot of other people I'd rather be voting than scioness, and one/two people I'd rather vote before ruru (ie can't decide if ofrzh goes before or after ruru atm), and either pin or ofrzh seem like reasonable options using a strictly PoE argument like you did since as far as I can tell, they fit into a bunch of pairings too.

B. Also having bad reads != being scum.

And not townreading != scumreading.

[skitter30]

@ofrhz @sajj

This is the level of associations reading that I think actually could be detrimental. Too much wifom, too many assumptions. The problem with all of the "scum!x would obviously use this strategy" is that scum!x could have simply used a different strategy.

Things I'm taking to the bank today.
ruru is town.
nsg is town.
skitter, regardless of alignment, has been making some very scummy arguments.

I've only been saying that for like the entire phase.

And like, I think the whole hypothetical is silly given this.

[skitter30]

like idk I'm leaning towards disregarding any of pintu's pairings because he is the purest being in this game (+ I don't think NSG would just throw towntells like that around)

But I don’t think their votes are something scum wouldn’t do.

Yeah this basically.

Like if we're making pairs based strictly on PoE, and disregarding townreads on pin/scioness/ruru/ofrzh, the only pairing from that set that I find unlikely in a partner-sense is scioness/ruru. Like his reasons for eliminating pairs aren't particularly compelling for me.

[skitter30]

okay, yeah. I was worried for a bit, but I'm still happy with my vote.

Okay, yeah, I explain why your conclusion is bad and you're waiving away the content of my point by saying that I'm scummy.

Explain you think my last few posts reaffirm your scumread on me.

[skitter30]

I don't know why you're not including pin/ofrzh.

I hate being wrong, it looks bad for any argument I'm making, but I just don't see two scum jumping from a live mislynch wagon, to a L-4 wagon that no one is talking about but them, so late in the day. I just don't.

You mean this?

I actually didn't see this post.

I don't know what this is referring to. Which wagon did they jump off of, and which wagon did they join?

Are you referring to how they both voted ruru at the end of the day? They didn't leave the same wagon (ofrzh wasn't voting, and pin left my wagon), and pin switched his vote back after like three posts. It makes the team more implausible but I don't see this as a reason to rule them out completely.

If that's not what you're talking about idk what this is referring to.

[skitter30]

I don't get why you're creating dichotomy where it ought to be one of the two - there's a lot of other people I'd rather be voting than scioness, and one/two people I'd rather vote before ruru (ie can't decide if ofrzh goes before or after ruru atm), and either pin or ofrzh seem like reasonable options using a strictly PoE argument like you did since as far as I can tell, they fit into a bunch of pairings too.

In case it wasn't clear enough, here's the key part close up.

She says she "doesn't get" why I would have made that conclusion, but that conclusion should be obvious if one considers the givens. It's okay to question the assumptions, and it's okay to question the conclusions, but here she is implying that there is no reasoning, and uses that as a springboard into talking about nonsense.

The givens are: town me/you/nsg.

I don't understand the reasoning you're using to get from your given to get to your conclusion.

(and lol at being ok to question the assumptions because I litearlly did that yesterday and you objected to that)

[skitter30]

And this shit isn't fun

so i'm prod dodging til the end

this is basically what I want to do too, yay for us.

[skitter30]

I don't get why I'm being townread now.

--

I can't really imagine a scenario where I'd be voting pin today; my townread on him has gone up rather significantly with his past few posts. Specifically from 1700. I think pin's method of forming reads is incredibly backwards and conf-biased-y. IE he picks a conclusion, and sticks with that conclusion until he sees something to challenge it, and if it isn't challenged he views his POV as proven. (Like, this isn't a how proofs work, like at all, but whatever). Although it's incredibly backwards, he's being internally consistent and all of his reads *make sense from the reads-making-method that he's following*, even though that process is inherently flawed imo.

Like his reason for unvoting me is just a bizarre thing to scum to fake (ie to completely upend his reads cuz I don't think that a particular scumpair is likely, as that's indicative to him of me not pushing the mislynch that he views as obvious from scum!me's POV) but makes sense from town!him who actually believes what he's saying. Like it logically follows from what he's saying before and is internally consistent with how he forms reads. I think this sort of thought-process is extremely hard to fake.
--

D2 ofrhz seems different to D1 ofrhz

Idk why tho

I agree with this a lot.

also, oxy's alignment aside, this quote is just simply manipulation and something like that is not pro-town

or even pro-having-good-thread-atmosphere

Yes, this is exactly my point.

He's exacerbating a conflict between the two of you *that was already being discussed*, and I strongly believe that another 1v1 is anti-having-good-thread-atmosphere, so I think that promoting a 1v1 is scummy.

[skitter30]

VOTE: ofrhz

Cuz I don't think my push on oxy is going anywhere and I recognize that I'm beating a dead horse atm.

I think I townread everyone else more.

[skitter30]

I think that an ofrhz/pin makes much more sense than a Scioness/pin pairing since we both tried to start a wagon on ruru at the end of D1 so it could be a reason to scumread us, so if ruru is town, that would be fair reason to think we are the scumteam.

@oxy

How does this fit into the 'ofrzh and pin are never a team' theory?

[skitter30]

I don't get why I'm being townread now.

do you have any conclusions?

Not that I want to share right now. Mostly just noting that the shift is bizarre cuz I don't think I started playing differently or anything.

[skitter30]

I think that an ofrhz/pin makes much more sense than a Scioness/pin pairing since we both tried to start a wagon on ruru at the end of D1 so it could be a reason to scumread us, so if ruru is town, that would be fair reason to think we are the scumteam.

@oxy

How does this fit into the 'ofrzh and pin are never a team' theory?

I disagree with this on a fundamental level, and I just made a post as to why.

I mean, I understand that *you* disagree with it. I'm asking if you find it relevant that one of the individuals involved in your theory disagrees with you about how scum!them might behave there.

[skitter30]

Oxy being alive in 5way is a decent indicator his reads are upside down or he's scum. Oxy being alive in 3way is a strong indicator his reads are upside down or he's scum.

Btw this doesn't necessarily hold if both me and him are alive on either of those days.

[skitter30]

Skitter is probably town

Did she claim vt at L1 or beforehand? Scum almost always claims pr at L1

Why am I probably town now?

[skitter30]

Oxy being alive in 5way is a decent indicator his reads are upside down or he's scum. Oxy being alive in 3way is a strong indicator his reads are upside down or he's scum.

Btw this doesn't necessarily hold if both me and him are alive on either of those days.

Why do you say this?

Cuz scum might think I'd stay tunneled in lylo and vote town!him.

Ie I'm specifically saying that if he's still alive and being townread by everyone (except for me, but I originally posted under the assumption I was about to be mislynched and no longer in the game), there has to be a reason he's a live in lylo. Like if he isn't really mislynchable cuz nearly everyone alive is townreading him, there's gotta be a reason why he's in lylo, and best I can come up with is that he's scum or town seriously misreading scum.

Whereas if I'm there, and I scumread him, its possible that scum thinks he's mislynchable in that scenario and wouldn't kill him.

[skitter30]

I agree with this to a large extent.

[skitter30]

@skitter, are you still scumreading Oxy in spite of your vote on me?

I’m townreading skitter because I couldn’t see the scum motivation in her voting Oxy. It actually feels like town skitter is tunneling him.

Yes, very much so. However I was also aware that I was sitting on a vanity wagon that no one else was joining so my vote wasn't really accomplishing much and so I decided to do something else.

Also I'm aware of the possibility that I might be tunneling him, but every other post from him makes me want to scumread him more .....

Also I'm seeing some parallels between how I'm reading oxy and the last time I was (wrongly) tunneled on someone (this doesn't happen often btw; last time I remember tunneling this bad and being wrong was ~August, and the time before was in June), which is why I think I might need to re-evaluate oxy from scratch but I don't think I can do that right now tbh. Like I don't think I can re-evaluate this objectively, so I think it might just be best if I focus on other things atm and try to figure him out later when I've not thought about him for a bit.

(And the only reason I got over the tunnel last time was cuz a dude who's towngame I respect immensely repped in thereabouts and talked me out of it. <3 bv if you're reading this btw )

[skitter30]

@ofrhz, what do you think of my vote on you?

[skitter30]

Gah this game is hard :/

Whoever scum are, you guys are doing a really good job.

I have too many townreads and like no scumreads besides the one I might be tunneled on so I'm like voting for the person I townread the least, even though I kinda townread them, if that makes sense.

@ofrhz: What do you think of scioness' vote on you? Who's your best candidate for scum right now? (independant of teamreads. Like just the person you find legitimately the most scummy all on their own)

[skitter30]

Before this mini wagon formed on me, I was trying to metaread pin, and my only conclusions were that 1) he likes to lay traps as town and 2) his reasoning this game seems off (this isn't the circular reasoning thing that was brought up earlier). For point 2, this game, he would take a certain situation and draw a completely different conclusion than I would from it. ex: he thought if you were scum, ruru would be scum because of ruru's vote on you D1. Another ex is where he said an ofrhz/pin pairing is more likely because of our votes on ruru late in the day. I feel like he is trying to draw contrived conclusions.

I also have a nagging feeling that he was trying to pocket me. In his other games as town, he would call things out, but he didn't call them out this game when I did the same exact thing (I would explain more if I could, but I just spent like almost half an hour looking for the post and can't find it ugh). This isn't a lot for me to go off of though.

A) can you elaborate on why my vote on oxy feels similar to ruru's vote on scioness?

B) I kinda feel like pin's bizarre conclusions are a towntell tbh. Like his conclusions are kinda wacky, and I don't think it's a good way to form reads (cuz, like, once his original theory is disproven he has 70 pages to reread and reconsider) but they're internally consistent, and I feel like it would be too hard for scum to follow a contrived reads-method/process and have it all be internally consistent when they didn't actually believe the logic they were using cuz it was made-up. It's a lot easier to follow a bizarre thought-process if you actually think it makes sense, than, like, if you were conscious that you had made it up imo. Idk if I explained that well.

C) Idk if I see him pocketing you anywhere?

[skitter30]

Scioness's vote: Scioness's 1729 implies she is no longer scumreading ruru, but the one thing that led her to not scumreading ruru was something that doesn't make sense to me (I say so why in 1712). The timing of her votes are oddly in line with yours, but whereas I can believe your reasoning for now townreading ruru (your vote on Oxy feels like ruru's vote on Scioness in some ways), I can't say the same for her. I'd rather wait for Scioness to answer my question about why she stopped scumreading ruru before passing judgment, but she doesn't seem to want to answer my question until I help her figure out why she's finding me strange, which is just weird

1729 was her response to nsg asking the question: "if me/oxy/ruru are all town, who are the possible scumteams".

I don't think she dropped her scumread, so much as suspended it temporarily to answer NSG.

[skitter30]

I feel like I've circled back to oxy/ofrzh

[skitter30]

Which time? The first time (ie post Drixx wagon), or second time (ie after I called him out on setting up a 1v1 between you and ofrhz)?

(There may have been another time in between; honestly I don't remember.)

[skitter30]

@ofrhz, I feel like your scumread on pin right now is kinda reach-y tbh.

[skitter30]

Kinda gross. He reacted to me voting him by calling me scummy and ignoring my (legimate) points about why that would lead to a sub-optimal gamestate.

You're deliberately promoting a suboptimal gamestate for your own amusement. This is probably the scummiest thing that has happened all game imo, and instead of defending your position (ie explaining why the 1v1 should happen given that it will likely induce apathy), you're calling me scummy for calling you out on your bullshit.

(I do admit I read to much into his 'amusement' quote, so that phrase is no longer relevant)

Also was framing my POV there as me trying to not get lynched when *I had literally basically asked to get lynched the day before*, so that was a blatant misrep. I still don't understand why he doesn't understand my point (ie the effect that he wanted - scioness and ofrzh sorting each other - was happening *without* the 1v1 he was trying to promote, so the 1v1 would yield no direct benefit).

Also it's weird that he decided that you were the scummier of the two of us and voted for you just shortly after I moved my vote off of him.

[skitter30]

I think he pocketed her.

[skitter30]

I dislike oxy's reaction to the ofrhz wagon; I feel like he's setting up a lynchpool for tomorrow.

I don't like ofrhz' scumread on pin. I don't really like oxy's reaction to pin's post.

I'm vaguely wondering if I've been pocketed by scioness.

NSG needs to say something useful before the day ends.

[skitter30]

That everyone who has been in my poe list is either at L-1 at or putting that person at L-1 makes it seem super likely that this is a bus

You're tying people on the wagon to an ofrzh scumflip.

[skitter30]

That everyone who has been in my poe list is either at L-1 at or putting that person at L-1 makes it seem super likely that this is a bus

You're tying people on the wagon to an ofrzh scumflip.

Please use logic to refute this from my pov

or acknowledge that I have reached a reasonable conclusion from my pov, and acknowledge that it isn't scummy.

Because coming to a logical conclusion when trying to determine who to lynch is not scummy

I can understand why you've reached that conclusion from your POV given your townreads, but I still think it's scummy.

Specifically because it feels like you're now expecting an ofrhz scumflip and are trying to plan for what happens after.

And the confidence of the scumread you're diplaying here - 'I think this is a bus' - doesn't really match how you're interacting with him or the wagon or the day's lynch: 'Not my favorite lynch, but better than a lot of other alternatives'; 'If we lynch you and you flip town, who do we look at afterwards?'.

And last night you were backing up his POV in his argument with scioness. Like how you're interacting with him doesn't really feel like you actually scumread him, even though you say you do.

[skitter30]

I'm vaguely wondering if I've been pocketed by scioness.

why so?

Oops, missed this.

Idk how to articulate this exactly. I feel like you agree with me a lot and back up my POV and kinda defend me to other people almost? Maybe I'm being paranoid though, idk.

Like people keep on saying that you're scummy but I just don't see it. But then I think that I gotta be going wrong somewhere cuz I have too many townreads, so I wonder if I'm wrong on you.

Like if *everyone* else says that I'm wrong, maybe I'm just wrong even though I don't see it.

[skitter30]

You know, being talked out of a townread by my #1 suspect for scum and the guy I'm voting isn't suspicious at all, right?

I'm getting a lot of similar vibes to the end of mini 1963 tbh.

[skitter30]

No, it would probably reaffirm the read tbh.

If you flip town there's a smaller pool of possible scum, so everyone would kinda drop a level in the readslist by PoE/default.

[skitter30]

Don't really know why town!you should clear oxy tbh

[skitter30]

Your townflip, no, not really.

IE your townflip by itself is not a reason to clear him imo; I don't see the connection between town!you and town!him. However, we're in LYLO/MYLO tomorrow if you flip town today so in that scenario I'd do my best to re-evaluate so I don't do something stupid like throw the game cuz I'm tunneled. I don't think your townflip inherently clears him, but it would put the game in a state where I'd do my best to re-evaluate from scratch.

You're a viable oxy partner though, so your scumflip would indeed reaffirm my scumread there. (Especially cuz I think he's expecting a scum!you flip).

If you're asking why I'm not voting him right now despite scumreading him no matter what you flip, it's cuz I tried that and it didn't get any traction.

[skitter30]

Yeah basically what ruru just posted. I do think you’re tunneling hard but since it doesn’t mean much coming from me, maybe northsidegal can help.

I'm aware that I might be but I don't know how to break out of it beyond just doing a hard reset by like ignoring everything he says for a few IRL days and trying to re-evaluate then.

Like I don't really townread anyone enough to sheep them, or have much confidence that their read is better than mine.

Also I'm kinda getting cold feet on ofrzh a bit.

[skitter30]

Also if oxy is town idk where to look for scum cuz I townread pretty much everyone else.

[skitter30]

My readslist is like close to upside down from yours:

Town->scum

Pin
Scioness
Ruru/nsg
Ofrhz
Oxy

I think you've towntold but like less than everyone above you.

[skitter30]

I don't really think we have two wagons on scum right now.

[skitter30]

Probably not.

Svt
Tvt
Svs

Is what I think the alignment of the lynches are from most to least likely.

If it was svs I think one of them would be hard-bussing the other for the towncred. Neither of them seem to be doing that.

[skitter30]

In like an hour cuz I have class now.

But basically if it were svs I think she'd be pushing for ofrzh more strongly right now, given that there's intent and the competing wagon is herself. Might as well get that distancing in if it looks like the options are ofrzh or herself.

Gamestate doesn't feel like svs right now. Don't know if I can explain that better.

[skitter30]

Do you actually think we win the game by lynching ofrhz though?

I kind of want to see what skitter has to say today because I feel like ofrhz is a significantly worse lynch than SS and she was expressing doubts yesterday.

Like, I feel like SS is pretty scummy and apparently only 2 other players want to lynch her, one of whom is lynching in self defense? And the ofrhz wagon formed pretty easily. I don't know

And pin/NSG can you please explain why you think SS is not a good lynch

Basically part of ofrhz's reaction to his wagon seemed kinda townie to me (like trying to find out where people would look for scum if he flipped town). But idk if he can't fake that.

I would write a lengthy thing on why Scioness and me doesn’t make sense, but The fact that Scioness doesn’t even seem to care to argue your Scioness/me hypothesis kinda makes it untrue.

Like she knows I’m going to flip green and her partner is someone else.

And some posts ping me, like this one. Earlier he says he isn't really scumreading her, but this last line feels reachy and like trying-too-hard-to-scumread-her if that makes sense.

And I really don't think scioness is scum though. I don't want to vote there today.

[skitter30]

basically if it was svs I feel like scioness would be more convicted wrt an ofrzh lynch after intent was posted

[skitter30]

it also sort of explains why you have that epiphany about skitter being scum two days ago

What do you mean by this?

[skitter30]

Skitter - My gut, Mathdino, and NSG are all town reading skitter. I can't remember off the top of my head what your current read on skitter is, but I don't think you have bigly confidence in this read right now? Correct me if I'm wrong

a) since when are you gut-townreading me?

b) why are you sheeping math/NSG now? (ie and not earlier)

[skitter30]

I was saying earlier that his interactions with the ofrhz wagon are weird. Like his conviction to vote ofrhz feels ... 'halfhearted' might be a good term?

And since oxy was saying till just now that ofrhz is my best partner and your best partner it's weird?