Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Oxy]

First Post!

VOTE: ofrhz

How does one pronounce your name?

[Oxy]

@skitter30 If you snooze, you lose!

You won't find me at the back of the queue.

[Oxy]

@ruru does it matter that his last visited date is more than 2 hours before this game began?

@unpronounceable touché!

[Oxy]

oops meant to switch vote

VOTE: ruru

[Oxy]

@Ofrhz How do you feel about RVS in a general sense?

[Oxy]

@ofrhz Thank you for replying. =)

I asked because your post 12 was suspicious of ruru and I noticed that not only did you not vote in that post, but that you haven't voted at all.

I have a slight town read on both ofrhz and ruru for this interaction, but that is more than anyone else.

VOTE: unvote

[Oxy]

@Scioness Sajj Any reads yet?

[Oxy]

I gave my reads in 20, and I continue to like those reads in the few posts since. Now that you're back, I'm interested in starting to form another read.

I get where Ruru is coming from, I don't really agree with what she is saying but that's just different approach, it seems.

Where is Ruru coming from, why don't you agree, and what approach would you take instead?

[Oxy]

Ah. I misunderstood your question.
Ruru Read

Spoiler:

Initial vote on 5 seemed scummy initially because (in my mind) it implied that eth0s had been logged in AFTER the game began and had been lurking. This wasn't the case as I pointed out in 8.

In reality, Ruru had checked other members of the game, found the person who had been active most recently, and chose them. This is super town motivated because it increases the chances that Ruru has to actually engage with the person they vote on.

It also turns out to be exactly the mindset that I took last night while waiting for the game to begin. I made the following image to accompany a vote on Callitwhatyouwant, referencing the difference in our name lengths:



And then I looked at everyone's last time online, realized how long it had been since they had logged in, and decided to switch RVS votes to someone more likely to be active early. Scum!Oxy would have likely used the original image, had he bothered to make an image at all, since it would give him an excuse to passively wait for his RVS target to show up.

Ofrhz Read

Spoiler:

7 has a carefree attitude that I like in response to an RVS vote, and that I especially like coming from someone not comfortable with RVS generally.
12, 16 seemed odd in the moment because they misrepresented what Ruru had actually written.
18 apologizes for the misunderstanding, and

proceeds to never bring it up again

<--- townie

After this point in the thread there seems to be mainly misunderstanding/misrepresenting between the two of them. It continues to look like town trying hard to scum hunt but talking past one another. I look forward to more content from this back and forth to help cement/refute my reads, but I'm not interested in joining in.
(and yes, Sajj, I see that you also apologized for that misunderstanding, but my gut is telling me not to give you the same town cred for it. That's why I want to engage with you.)

What do you think about these reads?

[Oxy]

No, I made those reads to begin to solve the game. I don't really understand your reaction to them?

[spoiler =]text[/ spoiler] Just take out the spaces.

[Oxy]

@Scioness Sajj
Answering your questions:
It doesn't matter what you think about my reads. It just matters that I get to engage with you so that I can begin to formulate a read on you.
The bolded part was the reason for the read. It was his reaction to his mistake, not the mistake itself.

I like the content of two of your thoughts. You have misunderstood or skimmed over much that I wrote, but that's fine. One question, though. How do we know who has confirmed/who hasn't?

I don't like your responses, but I'm having trouble putting my thoughts onto paper. Here's my best attempt: Throughout this interaction it has felt like you are more worried about making a misstep than I would expect from town.

Readlist:

Spoiler:

Very town

Town Lean

Ruru
Ofrhs

Null

Scum Lean

Scioness Sajj

ObvMaf

I'm off to eat and figure out where to put my vote.

[Oxy]

If I have misunderstood/skimmed, it's not fine it would be best to explain it.

They are town reads, not scum reads. I'm not pushing a lynch on them, so I don't really care if you share them. If you're interested, you are capable of reading and understanding. Here's a hint: There wasn't an error in my timeline.

You said you like two of my thoughts but you don't like my responeses, so you are not telling me or anybody what you find scummy/disagree with. You are basing your read on me on a really vague content.

Actually, I did say what I found scummy. It's what I liked that I didn't share.

You have said I have misunderstood or skimmed yet you say I'm worried about making a misstep? That's pretty contradictory to me.

I don't see a contradiction. Perhaps Scum!Sajj was concerned, but still decided against putting in the effort.

[Oxy]

2. Because it's hypocritical? As for why I didn't rvs, I didn't feel like I needed to. The ball kinda got rolling anyway.

I fail to see hypocrisy in my behavior. In 16 you say you don't have opinion on RVS, so I asked you why not vote. And then you have switched it around by saying I'm suspecting (?) you for something I did myself but that's not the case. I didn't ask you why you have moved past RVS, and I couldn't know that you did becuase you didn't cast a vote nor mentioned it.

@Scioness Sajj This is another example of what is making me suspicious. You engaged Ofrhv with a question, and he answered. Why argue about whether or not you've been hypocritical instead of asking follow up questions to continue determining his alignment? Did you already get something out of the interaction, so you don't need to continue it? Feels unnecessarily defensive.

VOTE: Scioness Sajj

[Oxy]

@Sajj It was a timeline, you just mixed up the order of events. Even right here you're mixing up my words if you think I said it wasn't a timeline. Additionally, I have expressed no expectation that if you were to understand them that you would agree with them. I don't understand what you mean about being held accountable? My words are indelible.

Upon re read, that interaction did not go how I remembered it. Please excuse me for 44. That being the case, I'm going to come back to your slot tomorrow.

VOTE: unvote

[Oxy]

@skitter30
However you get around to town reading me is fine. I don't have a preference.

I was trying to explain why his actions look townie to me, and they look townie to me because I'm town and I went through the same process.
She wanted to put pressure on someone who had not spoken yet, and wanted that pressure to be effective. Therefore she chose the inactive person most likely to see the vote and respond. She's clearly not trying to avoid conversations with people. Why would I doubt this thought process?

As for Ofrhz, the misunderstandings later are not related to the one I'm giving him town cred for. He did not bring the first one back up.

[Oxy]

@skitter30
Their misunderstandings have not caused me to change my reads on them.

[Oxy]

@Scioness Sajj
This is splitting hairs. We both chose someone who hadn't posted but had been active in the last 24 hours rather than a week ago. I can see the distinction you are making, I just don't think it is substantial.
I plan on evaluating you from a fresh perspective tomorrow. So yes, I'll be re reading your posts and, if you're willing, engaging you in conversation.

[Oxy]

Fair enough. I guess I could have been more precise in my language.

[Oxy]

I think you could make an argument for both sides - Mafia is more careful and spends more time OR mafia is faking it, so they put in less effort overall.

I am not arguing that you should think I am town because I made an image, or typed that. Frankly, Sajj's comment about it was one of the two parts I liked about her critique of my reads.

[Oxy]

However, just like I told Skitter when he asked me about this, you're more than welcome to town read me for whatever reason your heart desires ;P

[Oxy]

Based on this and other responses I don't find you particularly scummy, not enough to leave my vote overnight.

UNVOTE: ofrhz

obvtown

[Oxy]

At this point three people are saying that lurking is not scummy. Considering that it is three and not two, maybe I'm just wrong about what is good play. But to me the idea that lurking is completely neutral is strange. (And I realize PRs might have reason to lurk, but in 7/9 setups town PRs are 1:1 mafia and in 2/9 setups town PRs are 1:2 mafia, so lynching a random non-VT player should be a good thing.)

umm. actually lynching a scum or VT would be the best bet. Why would you say that lynching a PR is better than lynching a VT?

@eth0s I don't think we should lynch a random lurker, but your response - misunderstanding or purposeful mischaracterization?

[Oxy]

Oh there's 3 that haven't posted. Even better

Why?

@Scioness Sajj - Serious question?

[Oxy]

@sajj I'll just wait until you get a response, then. Excuse me for interrupting.

[Oxy]

You have this generic gut read on me that you want to push that you can't really explain. If I were to be mislynched today and players were looking for scum on my wagon Day 2 there's nothing that they can pinpoint to you. Reasoning is important. First piece of evidence you have posted was 44 but you backed off immidiately.

Why were you worried about being mislynched less than 24 hours into game with one vote on you?

[Oxy]

ebwop @sajj I can't. I'll wait.

[Oxy]

If you weren't worried about being lynched based on a vague reason, why would it matter that my reasoning was vague?

[Oxy]

That made me laugh. Okay, I'll resist the urge to go around in circles.

[Oxy]

You said that "The devil is in the details."
Do you often find scum by finding details that don't add up in their reads?

[Oxy]

Spoiled because wall. (and it is a wall, I'm so sorry)

Spoiler:

I've been putting some thought into why I had scum alarm bells ringing for Sajj, and whether or not they were legitimate concerns. When I began my iso, I began thinking that your questions seemed awfully forced - By this I mean that it is difficult for scum to find good things to ask about, so they end up asking questions that either have obvious answers, or are likely to produce answers that are NAI :

Examples: 27 has a clear answer in 23

1. I don't know why you assumed ofrhz is uncomfortable with rvs, 16 pretty clearly states they are indifferent. 2. why is bolded part bolded? 3. making mistakes like that is nai imo.

(no, 16 and 22 show that he has little to zero experience with rvs, and thus can't be comfortable with it.)

47 and 54 make me think that I might not be giving you enough of the benefit of the doubt. Starting to think that we were talking past each other.

And then I read 56, full, and

You are basing your read on me on a really vague content.

When scumhunting I look for instances where people show town emotions, thoughts, motivations, etc. It's difficult for scum to fake the emotions of town - the paranoia, frustration, stress that comes from not knowing who is what alignment.


As a corollary I think it's easier for scum to find small errors in one's memory of an event, or reasoning for a case than it is to try and identify "fake" town emotions in people they KNOW are town. Town, knowing that they must find scum and working from an information disadvantage are as likely (more so, perhaps?) to make small errors.

On the other hand, after these evolutions, I'm more inclined to townread 17 in the same way I townread Ofrhz.

tl;dr I don't agree that the devil is in the details, and as such I think some of your interactions are more likely to come from scum than from town. However, genuinely different approaches to finding scum would make those interactions NAI.

So at the end of all of that? Null, I guess. You're a tough egg. Really, I just hope I'm never asked to evaluate you in lylo.

@Skitter30 I apologize if I used the wrong pronouns. I'll do my best not to let it happen again. I have detailed the interaction in the following spoiler

Spoiler:

I want to hear from him and I think we have a better chance of that than of hearing from people who have been AFK for a longer time.

I don’t think lurking is a scum tell and the game just opened so wanting to hear from people who’ve been “afk for a long time”? That’s just grasping at straws

This clearly misunderstands Ruru's statement.

Others have "last visited" date earlier than him. This is what I mean by "longer time". So they are less likely to be online and lurking, and more likely to be just offline. I picked him because his was most recent, making it more likely that my vote will lead to him posting.

Ruru Clarifies

My b, I read afk for long instead of afk for longer time

After this Ofrhz completely drops the argument that (paraphrased) Ruru was grasping at straws by voting someone who had been "afk for a long time."

They continued to talk past each other, sure, but it's unrelated.
By going back and making this, the genuine towniness of the following is clear as day.

My b, I read afk for long instead of afk for longer time

He wrote this quickly, as evidenced by the sentence construction. Thus, it's more likely to be stream of consciousness than calculated, and the tone reads as chagrined, not caught. This is a town post!

[Oxy]

eth0s ITT:
-Vote inactive
-"activity is NAI - let's stop talking about lurking"
-4/5 of following posts suggesting or debating merits of putting a wagon on an inactive.

66 - anti-town isn't necessarily AI, but it can be.
@Eth0s Readlist please

VOTE: Eth0s

Readlist:

Spoiler:

Very Town

Ofrhz
Ruru

Town lean

Null

Skitter30
Scioness Sajj

Scum lean

Eth0s

Very Scum

P-edit @ruru That post screams town. You're clearly not very familiar with this site's meta. Presumably in shorter time period games it's not safe to leave a vote overnight if you aren't confident because a wagon and a quick hammer/forced claim might occur before you return. Scum is usually more cautious about changing votes or not voting because they don't want to unnecessarily bring attention to themselves. Would I take this read to Lylo without reevaluation? No. Would I lynch you D1? Never. Heck, even asking why I townread you deserves a very very light town read.
Would choose VT because scumhunting is the most fascinating part of this game by a mile.

[Oxy]

Welcome Drixx!
@ofrhz 1) I haven't seen any quickhammers d1 in my skims either, and I agree you weren't in danger. That was my point. The shorter time period games I was referencing were the games that ruru referenced playing on some other site earlier. That it was unnecessary in this game and this site's meta was actually the basis for the read.
2) Town is often suspicious of attempts to pocket them. Scum, on the other hand, is just happy not to get lynched.

P-edit @skitter30 It's about time you move away from that RVS vote.
I'm definitely trying hard. Newb? =( The truth hurts.
I'm not actively trying to look scummy (obv), but I don't think I'm focusing on avoiding missteps, either. Hmm.. Will evaluate in postgame.
I'm not interested in reevaluating my two town reads D1. Nope, not happening. Day 2 and onwards? You bet I will.

What are your thoughts on Eth0s?

[Oxy]

Oh that's because I don't think she was trying to look town, I think she was trying to look "so town" or in other words I think LAMIST was part of her plan. Hopefully that makes sense.

It doesn't make sense to me.

I also don't think we should lynch a random lurker. wagon =/= lynch. So I don't think you should imply that I said that. Also I didn't misunderstand or misrep ruru. She said "so lynching a random non-VT player should be a good thing". That sentence just doesn't sit well with me. Obviously lynching scum is a good idea but why imply that VT is the worst thing to lynch? That just doesn't make any sense.

I was implying that Ruru said that, not you. Also, she did not imply VT was the worst thing to lynch. Nope.

By no means do you have to post your reads, but I would have appreciated it. If you're town, help me sort you. To me, this is scummy.

@skitter30 I wasn't brushing off your vote. I'm just glad you're out of RVS. It took you longer than I expected it would have as town. As to why I don't want to reevaluate those two D1, I think that D1 reads are often easier to get early in the day, and more likely to be obfuscated by scum towards the end of the day.

[Oxy]

It was ambiguous. You are right about that.
Town in general. I've only read one of your games.
I played a lot of mafia in high school during study hall. Those games weren't very high skill. I've been watching DailyMafia and mafia all stars on twitch for a number of years now, on and off. I've also been reading games on mafiascum, very on and off, for that same period. I've always wanted to play, but I've never had remotely enough time to actually play one. I've read a few games on other sites, those forum mafia championship things they ran (still run?). I've always felt lost and bewildered reading fast day phase games, so I never tried playing.

[Oxy]

@Scioness Sajj
"So you are saying that scum will only be after methodical mistakes?" - No, I am not saying that so absolutely.
"Are you really saying that paying attention to game is ai?" - It definitely can be.
"Also, if that's what you think I'm after with that idiom then you are mistaken." - Then what did you mean?
"You really want me to be scum, don't you?" Yesterday evening I absolutely did! Then I realized that, and took a night's sleep to clear my head before reevaluating.

[Oxy]

Reactions to certain questions or mistakes give a pretty good idea of people's intentions. Getting to know player's playstyles seems pretty important to me.

I agree! That's why I asked you about your scum hunting technique earlier! Have any new thoughts on the game that you would like to share?

[Oxy]

lol, okie doke

[Oxy]

I don't remember the game. I read it before this one started, so when we started playing, I noticed your name. I remember you (town) getting wrecked by a super lurker/trolly mafia team with not mafia. I also remember having similar reads to you, and then finding out that you had some of the best reads of town. I can search for it if you want?

[Oxy]

You're not interested in townreads so nah, I have nothing to share with you.

could see this coming from frustrated town. trying to decide how easy it would be for scum to make this post. Will come back to it.

[Oxy]

It seemed like paranoid town working down the wifom rabbit hole. To rephrase 94: He has stated reads that agree with the reads in my head, and he is saying the "correct" (read: pro-town) things. He must be faking it!

There's some sarcasm there. Please don't take offense. IMO, to ignore the possibility of wifom is foolish. To go down the wifom rabbit hole is madness... Game ain't easy =/

[Oxy]

As I read it, Ruru said: If the lurker pool consisted of town PRs and scum, and the town pr to scum ratio is 1:1, then lynching within the lurker pool would give a 50% chance of catching scum, a far higher chance than a random lynch. I think it was more theoretical than practical, but that's my opinion.

[Oxy]

Out of curiosity, which game did you read?

I guess I'm just a little bit puzzled that you're not interested in re-evaluating reads today - we're still in fairly early stages so I feel like there's a lot of time/room to re-evaluate as things develop. I thought you might be quick to lock in your reads because you might come from a site with faster phases so you try to have firm reads early, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Really like the tone of this post. Was in bed last night, started to think that I had pocketed myself for her while analyzing her read on me. I've never really had experience looking at reads

on me

lol. I'm leaning town for this slot. Really want to hear more from Drixx/Eth0s in the coming days. (Feel better soon, Eth0s!)

[Oxy]

Seems like an

interaction for the sake of interacting

. I don't really see much usefulness in knowing what Drixx thinks of players capability.

I agree

[Oxy]

If you could choose your role at the beginning of the game, which would you prefer?

mafia roleblocker

I'll bite. Why mafia roleblocker?

[Oxy]

@Scioness Sajj

I had you as a null read in 90. I haven't thought more about 111 and 113 yet

[Oxy]

wrote that too fast. meant 107 and 113

[Oxy]

I've read your iso from Newbie 1851 and the postgame comments. At risk of sounding like a coward, I don't really want to commit to a read on you. ;P In an ideal world, your slot would just resolve somehow before I have to make a decision.

[Oxy]

ugh 1851
Well, I feel like it was rather peculiar game. I'm also really curious what in it stops you from trying to meta read me?

Nothing stopped me from trying. I did read your ISO from that game, after all.

[Oxy]

Only thing that will move this game forward for me right now is having drixx, eth0s, and our last two inactive players post more.

[Oxy]

Sorry for multipost... I'm hesitant to really pressure eth0s because he is sick and there is plenty of time in D1 for him to get better first. If people are interested in putting a few votes on Drixx to give him incentive to post, I would be for that.

p. edit - My inability to create a read on you that I am somewhat confident in is stopping me from committing to a read on you. I think I'm being rather clear??

[Oxy]

@scioness Sajj A null read is more like a lack of read. It's neutral.

@skitter30 It means I became worried that I had jumped to a town lean on you too quickly.

[Oxy]

because mafia is not an easy game. I don't understand what you're trying to get out of this.

[Oxy]

Would you be willing to share your reads, Sajj?

[Oxy]

I read that as after I read your ISO of 1851 - correct?

I concluded that you are proficient at faking scum hunting when playing as scum. I concluded that you would be a difficult slot to pin down, and I concluded that your slot would best be left to analysis on a future day once VCA and NKs can be taken into account.

[Oxy]

Feel free to just ask the next time you need a compliment ;P

[Oxy]

lolol

[Oxy]

I didn't mean to discourage you. I tried to answer your questions earnestly. Please regard this post as an invitation to ask any questions you have of me whenever you have them.

[Oxy]

It wasn't meant to. Games are about having fun. I'm not looking to discourage someone from having fun. Let's find a way to have fun. =)

[Oxy]

The joke also wasn't meant to dismiss your question. Just to return your joke from earlier - I thought you took it well with 158 and 161. I'll refrain from teasing you in the future if you would prefer it?

[Oxy]

If you didn't take it well, and 161 wasn't a joke, were you saying that you think I should be the lynch today?

[Oxy]

169 - I don't take anything that has happend in this game personally, you can stop ate'ing.

I'm glad to hear that. I'm all for friendly ribbing, but I'm like super not about ruining someone else's fun.

Back on the game: I can't help but notice that you're finding a lot of ways to imply that you think I'm scum without actually calling me scum. 1)Your vote isn't on me. 2)In your read list you didn't call me scum, you said "need to figure out if I'm omgusing." 3)You said I would be a good vigi shot 4)When asked if you thought I was a good lynch you said "You've got my readlist."

I won't beat around the bush. I think that behavior is scummy.

[Oxy]

Do you think that is a townie behavior?

[Oxy]

@Scioness Sajj I just read through your ISO. You've actually never called me scum outright. In fact, in between your read list and now, you actually implied that you didn't think I was scum, as indicated in bold:

You mean I come off as smarter the this (what is this?)?

Forgive me because this is going to sound blunt, but the question you asked in 150 was a stupid question. It's possible for people to read someone's posts and still walk away undecided about a slot.

139, 144, 148 and 150 is me trying to find out why his read stayed the same. It feels like you assume everytime I ask a question I ask it becuase I'm suspecting somebody, but that's not it.

You have read 150 and had thoughts about it, has it chnaged your read on me or created an new one? I don't know but you have had an opinion you have shared with me/everybody. I understand what makes you think the way you do. Oxy has read 200 or so of my posts, he had to think something when he read them but he wouldn't tell me why his read stayed the same. I'm fine with him being undecided about my slot, but I want to know why his read stayed the same, because there is a reason it stayed the same.

VOTE: Scioness Sajj

[Oxy]

It feels to me like Sajj is playing with the goal of not being scum read rather than playing with the goal of finding scum. Does anyone else see it that way?

[Oxy]

EBWOP: I'm looking for input on that from anyone, but I would really like to hear the thoughts of my three town reads.

[Oxy]

I don't understand what you mean about being held accountable? My words are indelible.

You have this generic gut read on me that you want to push that you can't really explain. If I were to be mislynched today and players were looking for scum on my wagon Day 2 there's nothing that they can pinpoint to you. Reasoning is important. First piece of evidence you have posted was 44 but you backed off immidiately.

I'd like for people to consider the above quote for insight into how Sajj thinks about the game. I think it is relevant that there was never anything resembling a wagon on her. There was only ever my vote.

With the above in mind, please consider the following:

need to figure out if I'm omgusing: oxy

I'd pick vig to shoot Oxy in the face.

If we are talking setup specific I'd go with vt or maybe jailkeep.

If you didn't take it well,

and 161 wasn't a joke

, were you saying that you think I should be the lynch today?

You've got my readlist.

3. I wasn't voting because I'm leaning town on ofrhz, I was talking with ruru and I'm fine with her/waiting on developments, you and eth0s are sick (also just started interacting with both of you) and Drixx is busy.

Didn't want to vote Oxy because I felt like most of his actions can be either town or scum motivated and thought omgusing may have affect my read but now we are here and I'm still meh because it feels like he is omgusing me now?

I read this last one as "Remember guys, I'm not scum reading Oxy, but his scum read on me is omgus, which everyone knows is scummy."

[Oxy]

If it wasn't clear, I'm saying I think she told us her scum game plan, and then she executed it.

[Oxy]

@Sajj Your plan was to push a scum read on a member of town without hard committing to the read so that after they flip town you could deny having pushed the scum read at all. Then you did just that. See 186 for examples of how you were pushing that read without committing to it.

[Oxy]

funny you mention this as my scum plan becuase in 54 where I was explaning why I want you to answer my questions (have your thoughts and reasoning 'on a paper' n the game) I have added as example exactly what you are saying is my scum plan.

I know you did. That's why I quoted it in 186. Did you even read the post?

[Oxy]

If Sajj is town I will eat my avi's top hat.

[Oxy]

1) I think you thought no one would notice, or that you could use this wifom argument if they did. I think you also found it a convenient defense at the time. You didn't need defending at that time, of course, but you are scum so you thought you did.
2)I think you've spent most of this game trying to convince me that you're town rather than find scum, and that engaging me was part of that attempt.
+) I don't want to get into a theory crafting debate about busing vs not busing. I don't think it's a stretch to say that mislynches work toward your win con.

[Oxy]

I was about to head off to bed, but I'll answer this last post first.

Not particularly? Where are you getting that from?

I feel like ever since I initially FoS'd her, Sajj has spent the vast amount of her posts trying to get me to town read her, and then getting frustrated when I wasn't. I get that town wants to be town read, but I feel like town's focus should be on finding scum. I feel like Sajj is a good enough player and smart enough person to expect this focus from town!Sajj.

Is it accurate to say that you think he's deliberately ignoring you? IE that you don't inherently have a problem with someone not sharing thoughts, but you dislike it when people avoid direct questions, which is what you think he's doing?

There wasn't a question in that spoiler, or I would have answered it.

196 - point 1 feels kinda reachy to me?

It is reachy, but I'm not telepathic. Maybe she did it subconsciously because she knows that it's a good scum strategy and as such she found it an easy way to throw some shade that might stick. Maybe she's running on putting on airs after being praised for her successful scum game in her previous game, and thought she was invincible. Maybe it was something else. Let's ask her in postgame.

p-edit:
@Sajj
1) see the above paragraph
2)Actually, on reread, I think you'll find yourself engaging me an awful lot since I put you in my null read column.
+)I don't want to have this debate. It's not productive. There are many ways to play scum successfully.
3) I think you were sowing the seeds for that wagon and positioning yourself to jump on it once it started forming. That was the plan you outlined, after all.
4) I don't necessarily think scum!Sajj cared. Or maybe she does. I'll ask her in postgame. I'm also scum reading eth0s, so I'm kind of wondering if this isn't an attempt to shield her partner. Will come back to this after a red flip.

[Oxy]

Folks, she's doing exactly what she has said is scummy. If she is town, why is she acting scummy by her own definition? Don't get bogged down in the nitty gritty. This one is pretty easy.

[Oxy]

And if you aren't convinced, put some pressure on her, examine her actions under that pressure and help pin down this slot one way or the other.

[Oxy]

You math folks are living in a theoretical world. Having studied physics, I think my approach to scum hunting is a lot more pragmatic.

Spoiler:

I'm going to wait for eth0s to elaborate before moving forward. The above was simply a joke above. Please don't read too much into it.

[Oxy]

Haven't said this up until now because I generally think it's a waste of time arguing against strawman arguments, but I'm pretty fed up with this one. Let's not pretend that you're a paragon of being forthcoming. I had to "trade" you for your reads because you refused to give them to me in 107

[Oxy]

And while I'm sitting here all riled up, the rest of ya'll should check this out: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=74900
It's the private thread from her mafia game. Skimming it is fine, and I'll give you some themes to look for while you read:
1) Very rarely does she 'misunderstand' things her scum partner is saying.
2) New player or not, she has an excellent mind for the game and should be given no quarter for being new.
3)the private thread is THIRTY-SIX PAGES. The end of D1 in that game ends somewhere in the first few pages of thread, just after she replaced in. I can't imagine how long the thread would have been if she had been in the game from the start. What does that mean? It means she is putting more effort into these games than probably anyone else here. Her posts in this thread are not indicative of that type of effort.

[Oxy]

I will. waiting on eht0s first. Didn't want to post much of anything, tbh, but you got under my skin.

[Oxy]

I really don't have time for a back and forth right now. We can converse as long as you'd care to this evening. I will answer these for you now, though.

My first scum game wasn't successful from my POV and you should know that after reading end game comments and scum PT.

By successful I meant that you won. I did see your comment in post game, and I do know from your PT that you

felt

overwhelmed, but you did a great job and everyone who commented on your game agreed.

I will. waiting on eht0s first. Didn't want to post much of anything, tbh, but you got under my skin.

What have I done that I have got under your skin?

Primarily your straw man arguments, as detailed minutes ago in 215. (Seriously, Sajj, are you even reading the game?)

3)the private thread is THIRTY-SIX PAGES. The end of D1 in that game ends somewhere in the first few pages of thread, just after she replaced in. I can't imagine how long the thread would have been if she had been in the game from the start. What does that mean? It means she is putting more effort into these games than probably anyone else here. Her posts in this thread are not indicative of that type of effort.

You were making it sound like I had a lot of scum plans in that PT and proactive ideas how to win that game. Is that correct?

No. That is not at all what this is saying. I'll go further and evaluate that statement. You DID have many plans and ideas throughout the PT. Many of them were great ideas. They were mostly reactive in nature, but there were definitely proactive ones as well. Things along the lines of, "we need to kill {player name} because of {game mechanic} and so that {other player name} will suspect so and so." or "I'll go make this argument to accomplish {goal x} which will allow you, meaning your partner, to do y.

p-edit: so when I don't share my reads or answer a question immediately, I'm avoiding it. When you snap at me and refuse to give your reads, I should have followed up. ooh! ooh! I know the next rule! When scum wins, it will be my fault for not pushing a lynch harder on D1. Give. Me. A. Break.

[Oxy]

EBWOP: last sentence "it will be my fault for not pushing a lynch harder on you on D1"

[Oxy]

p.edit
I have to wake up early tomorrow and it's alread 10pm so idk if we will get somewhere.

I'll do one more now since I won't be back til after 1am your time.

By successful I meant that you won. I did see your comment in post game, and I do know from your PT that you felt overwhelmed, but you did a great job and everyone who commented on your game agreed.

No mate, I have lost that game. I was lynched.

Welp, that's what I get for not reading the game. As I've stated previously, I read your ISO, I read the PT, and I read some post game comments. I also looked at the first post and it has you listed as still alive. so I figured you had won. I didn't actually read the game itself. fine. you lost the game. Everyone still thinks you did a great job and that you're competent scum.

Primarily your straw man arguments, as detailed minutes ago in 215. (Seriously, Sajj, are you even reading the game?)

214 (215 is your post) isn't an arguement. I'm explaning my pov there.

Yeah, it was my post, and in it I detailed how you had gotten under my skin by using straw man arguments.

No. That is not at all what this is saying. I'll go further and evaluate that statement. You DID have many plans and ideas throughout the PT. Many of them were great ideas. They were mostly reactive in nature, but there were definitely proactive ones as well. Things along the lines of, "we need to kill {player name} because of {game mechanic} and so that {other player name} will suspect so and so." or "I'll go make this argument to accomplish {goal x} which will allow you, meaning your partner, to do y.

Quotes, please.

Do you deny posting ideas like those described in this post? If so, I'll find the quotes.
The posts DO exist. You wrote them, so I'm pretty sure you KNOW they exist. If you're not denying that you had ideas of those sorts, then please don't send me to do busy work. Not only would that be scummy (giving me busy work to tire me out and muddy this thread with extraneous posts would be scum motivated), but it's also just plain disrespectful of my time.

[Oxy]

While you're here, can you give us a few lines on why you find those three scummy? Also, which one would you lynch right now if you had to?

[Oxy]

and if you had the time, I'd take a few lines of thoughts on ruru as well

[Oxy]

Welcome to the game, Heisenberg =)

[Oxy]

Thank you! Let's make this game a good one, eh? =)

[Oxy]

Really, thank you. That was a very nice thing to say.

[Oxy]

I'm going to be away until evening EST, but I'll put in some effort then, so feel free to leave me any questions. Ideally, Eth0s follows up on the quote below while I am gone.

Will elaborate when I have more time. Should be available within next 14 hours. Almost done being super bust for awhile.

I only realized just this moment that your name is not Heisenberg. lol

Pinturicchio, could you please give us your thoughts on Ruru and Ofrhz? From your PoV, there are only three players in need of examination, so I expect you've put some thought into it? I would be interested in your thoughts on others as well, to a lesser extent.

[Oxy]

For some reason I had it in my mind that the play began at 3:00pm. It began at 8:00pm. As such, I've been casually drinking fooor.... ten hours. Very tired... not sure how far I will get. For now, I would very much like it if Drixx and Pinturicchio could explain the Ofrhz/Oxy links to me like I'm five so I can put Ofrhz into a real confirmed town bucket.

[Oxy]

Could you please explain the case for Ofrhz being scum iff oxy=scum

[Oxy]

because from my pov that logic would confirm ofrhz = town, which would be useful. I don't get the argument tho

[Oxy]

because I'm town and if Ofrhz is only scum when I am scum, then Ofrhz must be town. Like I said, the confirm only works with the 100% knowledge that I am town, but it turns out that I am in that advantageous position. ;P

But I don't understand either your argument or Drixx's or what post makes the link???

[Oxy]

Don't try to sort him too early, it's not going to work. He hasn't engaged enough also. I'm townleaning him because of reasons I will discuss when it's appropiate

What is this? Paraphrasing: "Don't try to read Eth0s because he hasn't engaged enough to base a read on. I am reading him town." I know you said, "reasons" but what?

[Oxy]

Look I'm sorry and hate to be that guy but I have just been so busy. I am finally off work and school tomorrow so I WILL have some meaningful content soon. Would do it now but alcohol may be clouding my judgement. I will say that I am liking Oxy's posts a lot and think he is probably night kill target #1 (assuming he isn't scum).

@Pinturicchio You said that "a shitty read" is a scum tell from Eth0s. You believe I am obv scum. Eth0s thinks I'm not just townie, but so townie as to be a probable N1 kill. You have said that you are "townleaning him because of reasons."

Please make sense of these contradictions.

[Oxy]

and

I already convinced myself

that Oxy is scum

I don't like the phrasing of this at all. First, it implies the same sort of early read on someone that he calls me scummy for. Second, "to convince" is a strange verb to use when describing how one comes to have a read. Scummy posts "ping" a town's radar. Town "notices", "picks up on", "catches", and "finds" scum clues. All of these describe the instantaneous nature of realization. Scum, knowing that they must deceive others, must "convince" themselves that others will find an argument believable.

Conclusion? Ruru was REALLY gamesolvey at the start and it made sense

I also did not like the RQS being thrown in after the game had gotten rolling. Waiting on big reveal.

I don't really understand why you don't think his posts come from scum. Can you explain again?

I don't understand this either. It feels like scum!sajj feels forced to keep her non-read on me. I have no reason to believe Sajj thinks this way, but it feels like one of those people who believes consistency in reads is the ultimate town-tell and has awful read progression as a result.

I know Sajj has posed questions for me, but I'm just going to ignore them for the moment. My town reads remain unconvinced that she is scum, and that is enough to give me pause at this point. Don't misunderstand me. Sajj is still my #1 lynch today. I just don't think it's pro-town to continue going back and forth with her right now.

Readlist:

Spoiler:

Very Town

Ofrhz

Mostly Town

Skitter30
Ruru

Town Lean

Null

Drixx

Scum Lean

Pinturicchio
Eth0s

Very Scum

Scioness Sajj

[Oxy]

I tried to read everything but somewhere in between became really difficult, and I already convinced myself that Oxy is scum

This implies that your read on me had solidified by "somewhere in between." If your read on me was not an early read, then by what point in reading this thread had you solidified your read on me?

[Oxy]

Also, my vote on eth0s was aimed at getting him to post. My scum lean read on him is very light, and is not a result of trying to guess partners D1. I don't think I've ever read a game where I successfully inferred a scum team in the manner you are attempting.

[Oxy]

How is that different from me making an early read and then having that read still make sense as the game goes on?

[Oxy]

@Pinturicchio
Do you have any examples of town!Pin that I could look at where you entertain highly speculative "tin foil hat theories" on D1?

[Oxy]

In post 14, Oxy wrote:
@Ofrhz How do you feel about RVS in a general sense?

This post is an early attempt of mine to trip Ofrhz up. Had he answered in nearly any other way, I would have scum read him in 20 rather than town read him.

It's similar to how I gave Sajj extra rope to hang herself in 171 before posting 173.

[Oxy]

Welcome, Northsidegal!

@Skitter30
I've been procrastinating an iso of you, so I'll take this as an opportunity to do just that. I have a couple things to do around the house, but you can still expect your answer in a couple hours.

[Oxy]

I'm still working on that ISO for you, Skitter. In the meantime, this is for Pinturicchio.
@ofrhz I've seen a couple things that I don't like from Ruru, but nothing has pinged me hard enough to regret town binning her for D1. I mentioned one somewhere, and another I am keeping to myself for the moment. I haven't put her posts under a microscope in a while, though. I'll tell you what I definitely don't want, and that is for a Ruru lynch to happen before we hear a lot more from Eth0s, Drixx, NSG, and Pinturicchio. That would be playing super hard against win con for town.

@Pinturicchio My first read was not to confirm them as town. Here are some quotes for you. I didn't just join the game, throw a vote, and declare two people confirmed town. I got reads, had those reads strengthened, and decided they were strong enough to build my town circle around for D1. So, again, how is this any different?

Spoiler:

I have a

slight town read

on both ofrhz and ruru for this interaction, but that is more than anyone else.

I gave my reads in 20, and

I continue to like those reads in the few posts since

.

@Scioness Sajj
Answering your questions:
Readlist:

Very town

Town Lean

Ruru
Ofrhs

Null

Scum Lean

Scioness Sajj

ObvMaf

Based on this and other responses I don't find you particularly scummy, not enough to leave my vote overnight.

UNVOTE: ofrhz

obvtown

I'm not interested in reevaluating my two town reads D1. Nope, not happening. Day 2 and onwards? You bet I will.

[Oxy]

@Skitter30

When analyzing behavior, you seem to be asking "Is there a reasonable doubt that this behavior is indicative of scum/town?" and if the answer is yes, you discount the behavior when forming your read on the player.

You don't like it when others attribute their reads to behaviors that haven't passed that test in your mind, and you argue against it. I believe that this has had a moderating effect on the game to some degree.

This behavior is seriously pro town. Pro town play is not necessarily alignment indicative. That said, I think that maintaining your current playstyle while playing to a scum win con would get much more difficult as the game goes on, and I think this playstyle feels, and should continue to feel, natural for town!Skitter30. +town points

You had a lot of hollow content early where you explained things like why someone might lurk, etc. I was looking for them to die down as we got rolling, and they have. +town points

As to the basics, you have excellent questions, and you usually follow up on their answers. Your analysis seems very reasonable even when it is incorrect. Your voting conformed early to the cautious style I have described, and has looked pro town in intent since having belatedly left RVS. +town points

I have not found instances in your post where the inner town emotions ring unambiguously clear and true. +NAI

tl;dr Skitter30 is playing a very townie game. If Skitter30 is scum, I expect her to basically scum claim by Lylo.

[Oxy]

In post 305, Oxy wrote:
I'll tell you what I definitely don't want, and that is for a Ruru lynch to happen before we hear a lot more from Eth0s, Drixx, NSG, and Pinturicchio.


Does this seem super likely to happen to you atm?

I think it was decently likely in a world where Sajj doesn't unvote and I start critically evaluating Ruru. You and Ofrhs have this under control. I'll be watching and cheering you on from the sidelines.

[Oxy]

If he is scum, then I think he genuinely believes he is town.

I've always said that the amnesiacs make the best scum players.

[Oxy]

Ok, this... Is not what I was expecting.
UNVOTE: Oxy[/quote]
I think this read could be as easily faked by scum as any I have written in this game, and could be more easily faked than most. What, precisely, makes you town read me for it?

[Oxy]

Ironically, it's only after I stop pushing a lynch on Sajj that she starts throwing scum tells out left and right.

[Oxy]

In post 316, Oxy wrote:
tl;dr Skitter30 is playing a very townie game. If Skitter30 is scum, I expect her to basically scum claim by Lylo.
Could you explain this a bit more? Does scum have to act scummy before or during lylo?
For example, if there are 3 players left, and the scum player is the "towniest", they can wait for someone to vote, and then hammer. So I assume you're talking about actions before lylo?

I mean, I guess in a game where no discussion and reevaluation occurs during a 3 player lylo, waiting for someone else to vote is optimal for scum. Think about it from this angle, though. If scum can win a game purely by making cautious evaluations and placing pro-town votes, then town must have been super dysfunctional. With a functioning town, I would expect a slot like scum!Skitter30 to resolve in one of any number of ways. e.g, "Skitter, you've been super townie all game. It's day 3. Why are you still alive?"
More often I think scum will find itself in one or more positions where they have to place their vote on someone for strategic purposes, and then work to justify it. It is at this point that I expect scum!Skitter30's justification to deviate from the cautious playstyle that she is using.

[Oxy]

You have too many townreads. I've waited for your case on skitter expecting a scumlean or even a scumread because scum!Oxy would need at least two or three scumreads to fabricate the mislynches. If you are scum, townreading so many people is suboptimal as in a LyLo situation where you are placed with two towns and you, by PoE you would be lynched just because of your good cases on town. You are a good player, my friend, and you would not do this as scum. I was wrong, and I'll have to reread everything with you being town from my perspective.

Missed this post til just now...

Huh. I guess since I only ever read/watch games to scum hunt I've never really thought about it that way. I am upset with you, my friend. I enjoyed hearing you narrate fantastic tales of scum!oxy's genius, and I was eagerly awaiting the next installment. =)

[Oxy]

Tbh, I felt flattered to the point that I almost didn't want to dispute them.

[Oxy]

I just read 12 pages of that 1854 game where people keep talking about how strong town!eth0s is. I'm tired of waiting, and I have enough town reads that this lynch can't be terrible, statistically speaking. If this were to go 24-36 hours without Eth0s giving some solid content, I'd be fine with someone hammering as a policy lynch. Unless, you know, there is interest in lynching Sajj.

VOTE: Eth0s

[Oxy]

Pinturicchio, if you aren't going to vote me anymore, you should put your vote here.

[Oxy]

I would suspect scum is in {ofrhz, eth0s, skitter}.

I know you don't have much time, but you should /v eth0s. The other two are town.

[Oxy]

I mean, if eth0s, drixx, and NSG haven't caught up, ruru isn't lynching herself, and there's only three votes on her, I'm not really sure where the lolhammer would come from even?

Like I don't really get the caution about L-2 on day1 given that this isn't exactly a lol-hammer-y type game.

Yeah, I dunno. When you really break it down, I guess I just don't see a point in using my time/energy/vote to bring a town read of mine any closer to a lynch. That said, I think ya'll should continue this interaction until you're both happy with not lynching her D1. Then we can move on to lynching scum. =)

[Oxy]

quelle surprise

[Oxy]

I think game might just be solved: Sajj+eth0s

[Oxy]

Drixx has no reason to lurk

scumslip and spew.

[Oxy]

@oxy - why sajj/eth0s and not sajj/drixx?

I'm really just speculating because it's fun, and because I'm waiting for others to post. I wouldn't really push this analysis until we had a sajj red flip, for instance.

So why do i speculate eth0s is scum!sajj's partner?

What would scum!sajj benefit from lynching you over eth0s for example?

I noted at the time that this could be Sajj spewing her partner. Of course, it could also be the exact opposite.

Drixx has no reason to lurk and eth0s is inactive in both of his games.

"Drixx has no reason to lurk" is too definite. It's like she knows that Drixx has no reason to lurk because scum lurks and Drixx isn't scum. On the other hand, "eth0s is inactive in both of his games." feels like cornered scum who checked his activity because she's frustrated he isn't here to help. Again, it could be the opposite. I will say, if Sajj flips scum as I expect her to, her partner is probably in these two. There's also like a 1/100 chance that her partner is Ruru, which is why she might have been overly cautious of that wagon. I don't subscribe to this theory, though. I don't really subscribe to any of these pre-flip.

Analyzing spew is an art, not a science.

Sajj is scum, though. I get more sure of that with every post she makes.

[Oxy]

I also called it because I want to swag in post game if I'm right.

[Oxy]

hey, maybe if you hadn't written a super ambiguous but intriguing post and then went MIA for over two days, you wouldn't come back to confusion.

[Oxy]

Could you please explain the case for Ofrhz being scum

iff oxy=scum

It's not like I was hiding the fact that I thought it was an if and only if situation. You'll notice I dropped it the next morning once I realized that there was no iff situation.

[Oxy]

hey, maybe if you hadn't written a super ambiguous but intriguing post and then went MIA for over two days, you wouldn't come back to confusion.

I'm even less confused than I am concerned with you scumreading me. Not re-reading due to confusion, re-reading so that I can gather my thoughts and be productive. I keep having irl shit coming up and keeping me from being able to do what I want to do for this game. If I don't have a chance by tonight to give a worthy post then I'm just gonna replace out.

oh, lol. This post was directed at drixx, but I guess it could have been targeted at you, too~~~~~~~

[Oxy]

Okay, team town (Ruru, Ofrhz, Skitter30), I think it would behoove us to coordinate our pressure. My preference for targets would be, in order, Eth0s, Drixx, Sajj, NSG. That's not in order of scumminess, but rather of priority. I would be happy with any of them! Ofrhz seems to prefer drixx. Ruru and I are already on Eth0s.

Plan? I think we should put them at L-1, give them 24 hours to post something that isn't garbage, and then hammer them if they don't. End of day is not really all that far away, and right now I'm worried that we're going to disperse to our own corners and sit on our thumbs.

Thoughts?

P.S. @Pinturicchio I'm not giving you a team jersey yet, but you can drop the hammer if/when it becomes appropriate.

[Oxy]

Not to be a bother about logic, but your original statement was: if ofrhz = scum, then Oxy = scum. So then, if Oxy =/= scum, then ofrhz =/= scum by invoking the contrapositive.

I knew I should have taken a logic course in college. I had to use google to figure out why this is true.

[Oxy]

Oh, that's MY priority list. Think of it like a suggestion. If two of you are like, Oxy, we'd like to pressure NSG, I'll be there with you in a snap.

[Oxy]

and yeah, my priority list is not set in stone. Everyone on that list is somewhere between light scum read (read: nearly null) and null.

[Oxy]

ebwop: except for Sajj. That girl be scum.

[Oxy]

@pinturicchio Ack! Feel better!

I really don't know if I want to hear another conspiracy story unless it's about me. However, the "pleeeeease trust me" pings me super hard as not coming from a scum mindset. That's not necessarily the same thing as coming from a town mindset, but I can't really see scum!pin trying to protect scumpartner!eth0s with a "pleeeeease"

team town is good enough for today, and I'm a firm believer that you go to lynch with the town you have, not the town you might want or wish to have at a later date.

[Oxy]

follow up: Even working under the assumption that I have given scum!ruru a town pass for the day, she is willing to work with me. As the old adage goes, "I won't lynch you until tomorrow if you hammer your partner today."

[Oxy]

I don’t really understand the eth0s votes, is he more likely to make this game a priority if we wagon him? Also are you guys comfortable with policy lynches?

I think I missed this question earlier. He posted 23 times in his other game today. I think pressure will result in him posting, him replacing, or him flipping.

[Oxy]

And at some point we may have to lynch someone for lack of activity. Otherwise we're going to sit here for another week waiting for posts that won't come.

[Oxy]

Alternatively, anyone in my town circle could just lead this game to victory and I'll play good soldier. Just don't try to lynch inside the town circle til tomorrow. The time for us to work together is now.

[Oxy]

Friends, I have just reread ruru because ya'll had me paranoid. She is very likely town this game. Certainly too townie for a D1 lynch.

[Oxy]

ruru + eth0s is not a thing. I also saw this earlier.

VOTE: Drixx Ruru, please join us.

[Oxy]

no wait, it was scionness + ruru i think i noted earlier was very unlikely, not eth0s + ruru. either way, deal with associations later I agreeeeeeeeee

[Oxy]

Idk if I want to commit to hammering someone right now.

I feel like if I were scum this game, and neither my partner nor I were in {Oxy, Ofhrz, Ruru, Skitter30} my game plan would be to stall this day out as long as possible and make town scramble for a good lynch at the deadline. I think the counter play for this is to be just crazy enough to hammer 7 days before the deadline. I think if we're pressuring town!drixx he is experienced enough to find a way to show us town rather than get mislynched for inactivity in his IC game.

[Oxy]

ayyyy! That's L-1.

@Drixx Please post something pro-town.

[Oxy]

I'll be here another 15 minutes, but then I'm off to bed. I don't expect to hear from Drixx tonight. Good job, team town!

[Oxy]

don't unvote - no one in this game is stupid enough to lol hammer as town before hearing from drixx.

If someone were to lol hammer, you lynch them D2 with 100% chance they are scum

[Oxy]

skitter I love the paranoia, you're playing super town, but why in the world would scum!Drixx give us anything substantial if he knows this wagon is just going to go away.

[Oxy]

a lol hammer on town!drixx is a trade of Random town (read 2/7 chance of pr) for a scum.

[Oxy]

well, I think one of a few things will happen

1) Drixx shows us why experience matters, convincing us that he is town and breaking this beautiful town circle to shreds
2) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive, and his partner does their best to break this beautiful town circle apart (chainsaw argument)
3) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive and his partner makes a case on someone outside the town circle but in our null/scum reads, again trying to break up this town circle
4) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive and his partner stays inactive and we lynch scum

there are probably some other possibilities. It's a dynamic game. Trust your instincts. If one of those scum teams exist, this is where they will start to make mistakes.

[Oxy]

they could also lol hammer him for town cred, but you lynch the lol hammer-er regardless of drixx's flipp just on policy.

[Oxy]

Sorry I'm in a rush, so I haven't thought this through very well. My reluctance stems from the fact that we literally have nothing on NSG and next to nothing on eth0s. If pinturrichio lays down the hammer in the 24 hours, we'll be going into D2 with no information about those two. Regardless of how Drixx flips, I think we need more from them. Feel free to correct me, because this wagon happened quickly - I really haven't thought it through.

If you told me that I could trade not having reads on two people for a confirmed scum at D2 start, I would take that trade 100% of the time.

[Oxy]

It's not like you would lynch the confirmed town at dawn on D2, either. That gives you two whole days to get reads on them before walking into Lylo.

[Oxy]

ebwop: confirmed

scum

*****

[Oxy]

things

--Why would scum!oxy need to pocket someone who has a hard town read on him?
--I'm not pushing any lynch. I'm saying that L-1 is not something to be scared of, and the possibility of a lol hammer is not something to be scared of either because it gets us a scum lynched either way. If you want to lynch scioness sajj I am 100% for that. 100%. I'm not pushing that because you all know where I stand on her, and NONE of my THREE town reads seem to have any interest in that lynch.
--ruru is being a team player and it is absolutely pro town vote. Also, I like to think that my asking her helped.
--I felt like maybe ya'll had ideas and just didn't feel comfortable expressing them because i'm kind of assertive.
--What if scum is in this group? Will that change town!drixx's ability to express town?
--It doesn't have to be 24 hours. Pick an amount of time, but it can't be until the lynch deadline because then why bother??
--yeah I'm proud of the town bloc. My entire game plan from the start has been to find town, and then lynch scum with my town breathren.

[Oxy]

no it isn't skitter, it only sets up the lynch if someone lol-hammers! That's just standard play?????

[Oxy]

anyone who is reading this and thinks that I am pushing for a fast lynch needs their damn eyes checked. I'm going to bed.

[Oxy]

Just... One... more... post...:

read the votes and tell me you think anyone but scum would lol hammer in this game.

Spoiler:

Post Vote Voter
3 Ofrhz Oxy
4 Oxy Skitter30
5 Eth0s Ruru
9 Ruru Scioness Sajj
10 Ruru Oxy
15 Ofrhz Ruru
20 UNVOTE Oxy
23 Ruru Ofrhz
25 UNVOTE Scioness Sajj
34 Westen Eth0s
44 Scioness Sajj Oxy
48 UNVOTE Oxy
62 UNVOTE Ruru
90 Eth0s Oxy
177 Scioness Sajj Oxy
210 Scioness Sajj Eth0s
240 Oxy Pinturicchio
250 Ruru Scioness Sajj
260 Eth0s Ruru
297 Ruru Skitter30
306 UNVOTE Scioness Sajj
320 UNVOTE Pinturicchio
344 Eth0s Oxy
363 Oxy Scioness Sajj
368 UNVOTE Ofrhz
376 Drixx Ofrhz
395 Drixx Skitter30
396 Drixx Oxy
399 Drixx Ruru
402 UNVOTE Skitter30

[Oxy]

well, I think one of a few things will happen

1) Drixx shows us why experience matters, convincing us that he is town and breaking this beautiful town circle to shreds
2) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive, and his partner does their best to break this beautiful town circle apart (chainsaw argument)
3) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive and his partner makes a case on someone outside the town circle but in our null/scum reads, again trying to break up this town circle
4) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive and his partner stays inactive and we lynch scum

there are probably some other possibilities. It's a dynamic game. Trust your instincts. If one of those scum teams exist, this is where they will start to make mistakes.

Also like this post seems to be emphasizing a town-bloc and how a drixx wagon might cause it to fall apart -> like the emphasis is on a townbloc and not drixx almost. Like even the town!drixx case has this negative outcome of the town bloc breaking apart; the implication seems to be we don't want that to happen. I kinda almost feel like you've been pushing this wagon in an attempt to forge together a townbloc, with yourself in it. I don't really feel like it formed naturally.

My instincts are telling me that something is wrong here.

I answered you on this one too quickly (im too riled to sleep right now)
This was in response to a question by Ruru. She asked what would happen if the scum team was Drixx +eth0s/NSG. That's why, by definition, this assumes all 4 of us are town.

[Oxy]

The reasoning for the wagon was that if scum is outside of the group they will try to stall out the day in an attempt to force town to compromise on a bad wagon, and that the counter-tactic was to lynch early. -> I don't get why lynching early is necessarily a countermeasure, and I don't get how this would help if scum was in this group. Like I feel like this logic is kinda wonky.

The counter-play I suggested was to be WILLING to lynch early, not to lynch early. Big difference.

[Oxy]

how are you feeling this morning, buddy?

[Oxy]

428 should clear up a lot of that. Paranoia is a town trait. We'll get there in the end. =)

[Oxy]

how are you feeling about eth0s analyzing the first of 18 pages?

[Oxy]

I was somewhat surprised, though. I laid out exactly what I wanted to do, and then the moment I did it she was like, "woah! Where did this come from?" and I'm like

[Oxy]

The most frustrating part of this game for me is reading the stream of bullshit coming from Sajj, and having none of my town reads see it.

That's not meant to be an insult, by the way. It's excellent bullshit, and I'm impressed. It's still bullshit, though.

[Oxy]

@skitter30 I wrote you a novel. Sorry.

Spoiler:

In post 428, Oxy wrote:
I answered you on this one too quickly (im too riled to sleep right now)
This was in response to a question by Ruru. She asked what would happen if the scum team was Drixx +eth0s/NSG. That's why, by definition, this assumes all 4 of us are town.
Right, but the implication of your post is that town!drixx is a bad thing:

I've never had the thought that town!drixx is a "bad thing." Bad for whom/what? There must be a miscommunication somewhere.

Which to me reads like you want to hammer someone if they don't post content in a 24 hour deadline. I don't really think that prioritizng lurkers over scummy players is a good idea.

I read my post as saying that 24 hours is a reasonable amount of time to give someone to make a post that expresses their inner town. Pressuring someone who isn't posting content into helping to sort their role seems super pro-town to me. Taking Drixx as an example. Town!Drixx sees he is at L-1 and will likely be lynched if he doesn't show town colors. He thinks to himself, "If I don't do what they ask, I'll be playing against my win con and hurting town. I don't want to do that, so I better do some scum hunting."
Scum!Drixx sees it and thinks, "If I don't do what they ask, I'll be playing against my win con and hurting scum. I don't want to do that, so I better do something to make myself seem town."
Each of them produces content, from which we can evaluate their slot.

If they think there is a zero chance of them getting lynched, town!Drixx might still scumhunt because he realizes town is off base and helping them would be playing towards his win con. (Another, less principled town might say, "the hell with them" and that would be something we would need to evaluate)
Scum!Drixx might think "I can just out wait them. I should post only as a delaying tactic." We have 3 lurkers. As a town circle we can only use our votes to pressure each of them for an average of 2 days, 6.4 hours. And that's assuming we could instantaneously pick a lynch at the end of that. These slots have been lurking for 8 days now. Is it really so unreasonable to be worried that they might be stalling and able to continue stalling without counter play?

Cuz I thought we were still talking about it and I don't really think that threatening to hammer someone if they don't post in a 24 hour window is a good idea. I was not expecting the wagon to go to L-1 that fast, and I don't' really want to be on this wagon right now.

Fair. In my excitement I may have assumed you were more on board than I now realize you were. This isn't super important, but I'm less threatening a lynch, and more saying that "In the absence of quality town content and in the face of someone else's stated intent to hammer, I won't unvote." It's a mouthful, and by all means shorten it to "threaten a lynch" in our conversations for convenience sake. I just want to make sure we're using the same definitions, though. It makes conversation easier =)

The most frustrating part of this game for me is reading the stream of bullshit coming from Sajj, and having none of my town reads see it.
That's not meant to be an insult, by the way. It's excellent bullshit, and I'm impressed. It's still bullshit, though.

OK I read the posts and I don't get why you're characterizing them as bs? I don't necessarily agree with her pov but they don't particularly seem fabricated to me.

I get that, and that's why it's frustrating. I've been pointing out when I see scum in Sajj rather than writing walls like this one detailing my analysis because a) if it isn't going to be effective, then all it will do is clutter up the thread and make the game more difficult for my town reads, and b) people have said it's "unenjoyable" to slog through. I'll pull out quotes I find scummy if you want me to.

The basic gist is this: At her most townie, Sajj is doing superficial scumhunting. At her most scummy, Sajj is throwing vague shade around the room with little to no analysis of how she reached her conclusions. In the middle of those extremes she is adding to game confusion with answers to wrong questions and other hollow content. She lacks the curiosity of town. e.g., When Ruru, myself (and I'm sure others) were looking at Eth0s recent post and thinking, WTF???, Sajj was like, "oh yeah I think that's eth0s."

@Sajj It was a legit compliment. Being a good bullshitter is a strength as scum.

[Oxy]

And one super simple example: In what world does town have her read progression on me? I'm not saying I can't be seen as scummy. I'm not saying that in the slightest. Look at her read progression, though. It makes 0.0000 sense from a town perspective.

[Oxy]

@Oxy, you have to understand that not everyone thinks the same people are town. Also I think ruru’s vote was a little incongruous given her generally cautious playstyle. A ploy to seem more town?

I get it. I'm not calling people names or screaming LUL BAD TOWN. I think you can understand how it would be frustrating from my perspective. No? I've also been trying to say things that will make the three of you go, "huh, let me look at her last posts again" when I see her be scummy because I'm hoping it will be more effective than the walls that weren't.

[Oxy]

Also I think ruru’s vote was a little incongruous given her generally cautious playstyle. A ploy to seem more town?

From my perspective it made complete sense considering I had explained my reasoning, and in 381 she had already shown herself amenable to going along with my strats

[Oxy]

I'm saying that you're excellent at fabricating semi-reasonable content as scum, but that doesn't stop it from being fabricated. Again, it was a compliment. I consider myself a good bullshitter, as well.

[Oxy]

@skitter30

Spoiler:

In post 410, Oxy wrote:
1) Drixx shows us why experience matters, convincing us that he is town and breaking this beautiful town circle to shreds


Town!drixx leads to a 'beautiful' townbloc 'breaking to shreds'. The connotation is that this is a bad thing. (ie something beautiful has been destroyed). I don't know why you're framing it this way and I really see a connection between 'town!drixx posting townie things' and 'townbloc getting destroyed'.

Again,

this is in the context of a hypothetical question from Ruru, the premise of which is that Drixx is scum, and that all four of us, you, me, ofhrz, and ruru, are town.

If scum!drixx convinced town!us that he was town, and in the process made us more suspicious of one another, that would be a bad thing. This is not a post saying what I believe the results of a drixx wagon will be in this game.

It is an answer to a hypothetical question that presupposes both his alignment and our alignments.

Addressing your spoiler:
I think it's okay that we have different points of view on this, and I'm more than happy to follow your lead to win this game. Just tell me what the plan is and I'm there. I also think that you should try to view what I've said just a tad more charitably. I don't think I've said anything to imply that this is to be set in stone and nothing could change. In fact, I've called for input and leadership from other players multiple times. Regardless, I'm not going to be party to a lynch a person if they are just straight up away from the site for 24 hours. I also would suggest holding the hammer if they were to be like, "Hey, I really can't post today but if you give me until X time I promise that I'll get you what you're looking for." In that situation, I'd suggest turning the wagon towards someone else for the time being. If they didn't follow through on that promise, I would have no qualms being involved in that lynch.

I'm also not "arguing for an easy lynch on a lurker." My top scum and favorite lynch has the second highest number of posts in the game, only below myself.

I think if you looked at Sajj with the critical eye you have trained on me, you'd be pushing for her lynch. If you were reading me with the same level of charity as you read her, I'd be bleeding buckets of town.

As to the wtf moment, you don't find it weird that Eth0s decided the most valuable use of his obviously limited time was to review page one of this thread and only page one? I see his post as next to useless, and not indicative at all at any meaningful attempt to either provide content or scumhunt. That post took 5 minutes of reading page one and 3 minutes of putting quotes together. I would have found it far more reasonable for him to post nothing at all. I guess that's just a difference of opinion. Out of respect for you, I will no longer consider it when looking at Sajj's alignment.

[Oxy]

[quote="In We need to give NSG and eth0s/his replacement a chance to chime in before ending the day. I can't stress this enough.

[b]How will this play out if Drixx + ... 3]post 409, ruru"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10052685]We need to give NSG and eth0s/his replacement a chance to chime in before ending the day. I can't stress this enough.[/quote]

How will this play out if Drixx + NSG/eth0s are scum?

[/quote]

[Oxy]

well I mangled that formatting pretty darn hard

[Oxy]

but that's what I was answering. "How will this play out if Drixx +NSG/eth0s are scum?" Do you see now why my language in my answer not only makes sense but it is fully appropriate?

[Oxy]

@skitter30 I don't even really understand how you misread that answer? If drixx was town and he convinced us he was town, how would that destroy anything? We'd just add him to the list of town. When the conclusion didn't make any sense at all, didn't you think for a moment that you might have misread it?

[Oxy]

In that wall Sajj says that I never tried to engage my town reads in conversation about her, and then calls it scummy for instances where I engage my town reads in conversation about her.

By my reading the only decent point is that I don't have the paranoia I call towny. I think it can be a town-indicative trait. I don't think all towns are paranoid all the time. I also think I was paranoid of Ruru, and that's why I reread her and posted about how I had done so because of paranoia sometime yesterday.

I've reread sajj's iso something like a half dozen times this game. She's good at scum. I caught her, but she is definitely good at scum.

[Oxy]

I appreciate your suggestion, but I'll play my game in the most pro-town way I know how, and engaging you in a long back and forth for a second time is not part of that game.

[Oxy]

That's some fine looking wifom you've got there. May I have a glass?

[Oxy]

I just couldn't resist. It's so tempting to argue with you ;P

[Oxy]

That... is the towniest post you have made all game

[Oxy]

Okay. I'll respect that.

[Oxy]

fuck. i guess I'm wrong on Sajj, then. I don't see caught scum getting this worked up over getting caught, and only a sociopath would write 477 and 479 as an aTe attempt. I don't think Sajj is a sociopath. Add it to 107 and, well, rip. Sorry, guys.

[Oxy]

I'll be back in a few hours. or tomorrow. I'm not sure.

[Oxy]

First I'd like to apologize to Scioness Sajj. I tunneled on you and I took the fun out of the game for you as a result. I had no right to do that, and I'm immensely sorry.

Novel incoming. Game pretty much solved.

Spoiler:

This is how I see the game:
I had a lot of alarm bells ring in my head about Sajj. When I was writing my many different reasons for suspecting her, I knew I wasn't explaining what I was seeing very well. I figured that was partly why I wasn't getting traction with my town reads. I thought Scioness was being scummy enough, and that my cases were at getting you three thinking in the "right" direction enough that eventually you would come around.

When you, Skitter30, would explain why you disagreed, it was reasonable. I felt that the body of scummy behavior outweighed the explanations for individual acts of scummy behavior that you presented (e.g, english being her second language excusing misrepresentations), but I respected your method for weighing evidence and I wasn't going to argue that your pov was 100% wrong, because in each instance you weren't necessarily wrong. It turns out your explanations were reasonable because they were right.

When I continued to bring up that Scioness was being scummy, but without the case walls, it was exactly as you said, Skitter. I was trying to keep the idea at the front of your minds, and prompt you to reread her posts in the critical manner that I had. It turns out, I was also simply harassing someone in their first game as town.

So when she voted me with reads that makes sense in the first place, but were clearly picked directly from the posts of others, it seemed obvious to me that this was one of the only plays available to her as scum. I'm talking, of course, of the Ofrhz/Oxy theory. It also turns out to be exactly how new town would react. Here she is, being pushed on hard by the most active player, who is being town read first by most, and then by all, of the active players. Of course she is going to latch onto the only theory in the game for scum!oxy. I would.

And then I call her a good bullshitter. See, I think scum!Sajj actually takes that as a compliment. Bullshitting is a huge part of being scum. But from town!Sajj's position, I'm just coming in hot right after her many of her posts and saying it's shit. No wonder she's upset and feeling resentful.

And the crux of it all - those two posts. She knows how I feel about ruining someone's fun. She knows I'm going to feel awful if she accuses me of it. She's not going to do that just to win a game.
I'm very sorry, Sajj.

Gamestate

Spoiler:

This game is auto. Lynch eth0s, pin, NSG, and Drixx in that order and we win the game. My bet in 2 lynches, Almost certainly in three lynches, and certainly by 4 lynches. I'll be following the votes of my town reads within those 4. Okay I said certainly but there's probably a <10% chance that Skitter30 is scum, and <5% chance of either ruru ofrhz is scum and <<1% chance that both scum are within those 3.

Drixx could be scum, but I'm starting to doubt it upon reflection. I don't think he lies in a newbie game about his meta of being as active as he can be regardless of alignment. If it's not his meta, it's too easily refuted. If it is his meta, he's not throwing it away on a newbie game. So the lurking is actually NAI in his case.

So then what's with the posts? I have to believe that a man of 10 years forum mafia experience can come up with a less clearly anti-town post than that. Like, come on.

They're reaction tests, obviously. What's the most post efficient way to collect reads? What would you do to proactively collect reads if you can only post once every other day? It would take a week to have a simple conversation. A reaction test, on the other hand, is like a trap you lay and come back to.

[Oxy]

So when she voted me with reads that makes sense in the first place

ebwop this should read "so when she voted me with reads that didn't make sense*

[Oxy]

I'll be playing a much quieter game after that screw up. Ask me a direct question if you want my input. I think my post answers most things asked of me in the past few pages. If there is something else you want addressed, please repeat the question.

[Oxy]

1) Ah, no. I just gave my pov of the game. My plan is to follow you, ofrhz, and skitter to a win.
3) That's true. Don't just stop playing and lynch off my list. Clearly, I am not omniscient.

[Oxy]

why are you asking for reads so early on

It was the first thing that came to mind.

[Oxy]

@oxy: you said you had read stack-the-deck and NSG was in that game. What did you think of her play?

I remember that she was in the game, and not much more. I don't remember yelling at her through my screen, which is something I do when town reads push terrible cases, or when obvscum is getting a pass. If you really, really, really want me to, I'll do a reread of that game.

[Oxy]

I should have been more specific there. I yell at the obvscum, not the players giving them passes. You'd think it would be the opposite, but it's not.

[Oxy]

@Oxy - it's fine, don't worry about it. I'm missing from the gamestate part and I'm not sure what to make of it, why didn't you include me?

I didn't include you because you must be town. If you weren't town, you'd be someone I would refuse to associate with, and I don't want to entertain that line of thought. This will be the last time I respond to questions or comments about Sajj's alignment.

[Oxy]

what do you think about her having the opportunity to only talk about your 1v1?

I think I see where you are going with this, but my initial reaction is that it does not affect my read. I think that is my best read in this game, and I think that any read or discussion that Skitter pushes should pass the smell test. If they don't, I would consider it a scum claim.

[Oxy]

So you are fine with Drixx scumreading 2 "town" and one potential town? pfft.

I had no read (not null, literally no read) on Drixx at the time of this posting. Frankly, if he was willing to help me pressure a lurker into posting, he could /claim scum and I would still welcome his help. As to being "fine" with his reads - I didn't like his reads on my town reads, and I thought his read on you was about as good as my very slight scum lean on you. You were posting less than nothing, mate.

[Oxy]

why are you saying this to the guy that you're trying to convince to lynch me?

Because he too had posted less than nothing.

[Oxy]

Oxy's tone has me concerned and also just how confident he is in there being no lolhammer. How are you so confident that no one will lolhammer that you wanna keep the (admittedly very busy) IC at L-1 for a long period of time?

I respect everyone in this game enough to believe that none of you would lol hammer as either town or scum. not as town because that's anti-town, and not as scum because you would be policy lynched tomorrow 100%. Apparently some people don't agree that policy lynching would be the right move regardless of the flip, so maybe it wouldn't be wrong. The moral of the story is that if you have a policy of lynching lol hammer-ers, people stop lol hammering.

[Oxy]

but I am 100% okay with lynching him today.

You won't lynch me today.

[Oxy]

backpedaling/receding again before people have time to see how silly your game-solve was?

I'm just giving other people room to have fun, mate.

[Oxy]

why are you saying this to the guy that you're trying to convince to lynch me?

Because he too had posted less than nothing.

I read this too fast. At no point was I pushing for your lynch. People need to do some thinking and figure out the difference between being willing to threaten a lynch and follow through on that threat, and pushing a lynch.

[Oxy]

why are you saying this to the guy that you're trying to convince to lynch me?

Because he too had posted less than nothing.

I read this too fast. At no point was I pushing for your lynch. People need to do some thinking and figure out the difference between being willing to threaten a lynch and follow through on that threat, and pushing a lynch.

you literally said i was the best lynch

You became my vote for best lynch after I townread sajj. When I asked Drixx to vote for you, Sajj was my favorite lynch. I'm not sure I would continue to call you my best lynch now.

[Oxy]

but I am 100% okay with lynching him today.

You won't lynch me today.

VOTE: Oxy

Seems belated. Good luck!

[Oxy]

VOTE: Pinturicchio You guys got the pocketing attempt backwards.

[Oxy]

readlist:

Spoiler:

Basically Confirmed Town

Ruru
Ofrhz

Town

Town lean

eth0s
Skitter30

Null

Drixx
NSG

scum lean

Pinturicchio

Scum

Basically Conf Scum

[Oxy]

Nothing changed. I haven't town read you for one minute of the game. Pocketing attempt starts with:

Btw, even if I'm scumreading you, I really love your playstyle, it's obvious that you're having fun and your grammar is splendid. I'm not a native english speaker, so your posts are fun to read.

[Oxy]

I can see how someone might think it odd to say that someone who starts the game by making a case on me is pocketing me, but it damn near worked. I wanted you to be town so we could have fun together. PoE wise it's very unlikely. Your tone of voice while talking with me (especially while scumreading me, but after as well) and your tone while talking with sajj when scumreading her. It's not the tone of town talking to scum.

I still appreciate the compliment. It made my night that night, and I hope my scum reading you doesn't change our future friendship.

Like I'm looking at this game and eth0s is looking less likely, so that leaves NSG/Pin NSG/Drixx, NSG/Skitter30, Pin/Drixx, Pin/Skitter30, Skitter30/Drixx and while I wouldn't have expected skitter's reactions post wagon mess, I don't think I'd call it a scum claim just yet, making her pairings less likely.

[Oxy]

I got halfway through your quotes, but this shit just doesn't make sense either.

[Oxy]

VOTE: unvote

[Oxy]

Unfortunately this means I have almost all town or null reads

me right now

[Oxy]

That made me smile for the first time tonight =)

[Oxy]

@ruru can you talk to me about skitter some more please