Newbie 1863: Rugby - Game Over

[brassherald]

Hello, everyone, I replaced into a game here where my predecessor seems to be among the sum reads for "lurking" let me start with a simple thought game. There are three people who are being characterized as "lurkers" and two scum slots in this game, why are we scum reading people who lurk rather than reading the content of the posts that they do make and making judgments on them. I know I'm not the IC, but lurking is not actually a scum tell.

Even

arguendo

, the question becomes the difference between scum lurking and lurking because the player is in the damn hospital, like Nauci was and might still be. She said that multiple times in this game and other games on the site where she was town, like Open 719 (I think that's the number, it's Stack the Deck).

So, before I share any thoughts I might have on other slots, I want to engage this issue head on before you decide to lynch in MYLO, show me posts from Nauci that actually seem scummy, and I will address them to the best of my ability.

[brassherald]

teacher - Please out your check, now.

You are claiming tracker, so you have either an inconclusive check, a check on dead, or a red check.

If you have a red check, scum already knows who the red check is on. That person is probably not going to spew prior to your check.

If you have a check on dead, you are terrible. (lol)

If you have an inconclusive check, then I want to know it now - before YOU have a chance to gather more information.

I'd agree, this is something I'd also like to hear before sharing my thoughts.

[brassherald]

Welcome to the game BH; I'm a big fan of your work.

Thank you. I like your avatar, but I don't know I can say that as a mod.

[brassherald]

My Nauci Case

[lEarly game fluffing. BUT had played with TGP before 8 and ignored my TGP meta question 139 made before he was VLA. Both are weak grounds, as she had discussed TGP's meta before my question. I was more seeking an inconsistency.

Let's start this. Early game fluffing doesn't mean anything, Nauci never really steps up in any of her games and starts the serious action. Then I don't know if she saw your question, sometimes people miss questions all the time, but, if you really wanted it answered you should have asked again.

But there is in fact an inconsistency. Nauci's first discussion of TGP says that she remembers nothing. 26. But then she tries to build a scum case from her previous game. 65. Inconsistency all the more suspicious because James says this is TGP's common Town!meta. 143 THIS is my biggest issue, along with

This is factually incorrect. James Brafin was saying this is a town meta where he lurks Day 1, Nauci stated that she felt TGP was trying to pocket her. She never mentions lurking as a basis for the scumread, but instead at the time said she was discouraging lurking. Her lurking was due to health issues and she probably should have replaced out earlier.

the vanity wagon on me both early when Thor and JB's responses indicated I would not be gaining traction, and later, when

I have no idea what a vanity wagon is. Not what this has to do with anything. Someone votes you so they are scum? Bad attitude.

Providing intent to L-1 but doesnt, while encouraging early L-1s -- i.e. a contradictory push to the JB wagon while staying off it (to avoid suspicion?) 227

Another factually incorrect accusation. Nauci asked for a VC because she was pretty sure but not positive it was L-2. She was not willing to hammer clearly and was not sure on the count. I mean, it seems like if she had miscounted and hammered, you wouldn't have liked that either.

What I view as a slightly misreppy attempt to add onto the valid early scumcase on me (91)

You cited your own post.

Possible contradiction between 65 ("activity+content based") and encouragement of 1v1s compared to 96 "too tryhard" complaining about activity.

Are you serious? The line in the second post was a joke because she was falling behind.

Dont know what to make of complete disappearance before break. Real life happens, and Im glad youre through withdrawal and wish you the best on the continued recovery generally. But Im quite surprised that housebound Nauci would not turn to this at somepoint for relief. This is null, I debated not listing, but it is a question in my mind if I am honest.

This is absurd. Different people deal with different things in different ways, YOU might have returned here for relief, Nauci does not necessarily. The same way I take Advil after my wisdom tooth was removed but my sister took the heavy painkillers.

[brassherald]

@brassherald, welcome. When you get a chance, I'd love to hear your thoughts on 576 followed by answering this on behalf of your slot:

My thought are, it was a quick post, and I do not know the reasoning behind that vote. I am not allowed to message her and ask, and I wish I could.

Meanwhile, @ Nauci, you say you were sick between 236 and 371. Okay. Please comment on the things you wish you had had a chance to talk about then. Would you/wouldn't you have hammered, if you could have? What do you think about 250 compared to 333? Or 259, where Teacher throws out sheeping me? 271? And at least three other posts of your choice.

I would have hammered. No lynch is worse for town than lynching a VT.

250 to 333 is pretty bad for Flicker, to be honest. No lynching Day 1 inherently hurts town. Close to the deadline, Flicker pulls his vote off? That's bad for town.

Sheeping is weird from people. Form your own reads, pursue them. Sheeping is distinctly negative utility for town.

271 is not terrible, but not good. Meji's been doing lots of Information rather than analysis, I believe. That's not very townie. Trying to coordinate on lynches, though is a good thing. The best way would be to provide analysis rather than just pure information.

I don't have time to do the three other posts right now, but when I do a brief idea catch up I'm sure I will cite three posts or more.

I'll just stick this here, I am not promising a read list and intend to actually tell you I will not do a read list. It's not useful for me, and I don't feel it is ever useful for anyone else to read them. I will not budge on this ever again.

[brassherald]

PEdit2 @ brassherald: Can you post a quick read list/lynch pool/general impressions cloud?

PEdit3 @ brassherald: Why don't you think read lists are useful?

I'm going to flip these. Read lists are not useful because all they are is a list. I prefer to actually analyze and give my thoughts rather than just "X is scum" I'll provide reads with some reasoning, but a formal read list is not my style. Plus, I see no point in listing nulls, if I have nothing to say on a slot (usually on Day 1 or earlier Day 2) they're null.

I'll do a lynch pool for now, then a full thoughts after I get home from work tonight. Lynch pool is Meji for the Information and no analysis approach, and Flicker for the fact that you have been totally reactive at this point and as I explained, acted with negative town utility day 1.

We do not get another mislynch keep in mind, so, I would suggest you take your time in reasoning and voting today, as I will be.

[brassherald]

Okay, teacher let me explain this again, because you clearly didn't read my explanation on that L-1. Nauci asked for a Votecount, 4 hours later, there was still no votecount.

How are you not getting this?

[brassherald]

1. You say it is "factually incorrect" that Nauci "tries to build a scum case from their lurking." Look at the post I linked -- 65. Nauci read TGP/NK (jailkeeper) as scum from "straight lack of content bias" and because "HE did that in a game" where he was scum. That is a scum case from lurking - factually correct.

Okay, one vote where she checked a game and posts her read on meta. Wow, you really cracked the case there!

2. "Vanity wagon" is a phrase you must have heard as an SE. It is a one vote wagon that will not gain traction to a lynch. Moreover, suggesting I am scumming someone for voting me shows a stunning lack of appreciation for the game. I cannot have said more times that I get why I am suspect, and didnt blame people for voting me. I blame Nauci for staying there even in the late day when it is clear I could not be a consensus.

Never heard this phrase before, stop trying to shade me for not knowing your phrase.

To respond to 771, I see two issues.
Compare this:

Trying to coordinate on lynches, though is a good thing.

With this:

I will not do a read list. It's not useful for me, and I don't feel it is ever useful for anyone else to read them. I will not budge on this ever again.

So we shouldnt expect analysis? Why is a readslist not useful to anyone else? I find them useful.
Compare this:

Sheeping is distinctly negative utility for town.

With this:

Trying to coordinate on lynches, though is a good thing.

And consider the background strategy. Forming a town block negates the inherent block mafia can have, and can provide tells if you move the block around during the day for wagon analysis. I will try to dig up a strategy article from back in the day when I used to play more, but at least then, building a block was a big strategic bonus.

You try to coordinate on lynches by lining up reads, not by sheeping other people. This is a game where you need to do the thinking, you don't get to pass it off on someone else by sheeping them. Your townreads can be wrong. You can be wrong as town, but sheeping is a great way to pass off blame.

[brassherald]

I am not saying I won't post reads, I will not post read lists. Those are different things.

Also, if we decide to no lynch, then we should not be sharing reads so as to not give guidance to scum as to who to kill tonight to make LYLO easier for them Day 4.

[brassherald]

I've already posted enough that I feel a no lynch is actually inferior to a lynch.

[brassherald]

So, here are my thoughts.

Oxy- He's been pretty townie overall, I especially liked 190 and 256, I'm sure there are more that I like, but these are just examples of where he's been a voice of reason most of the game. He's been giving good theory, and analyzing. And especially, calling people out. Really the only blip on the radar, to me, was his reaction to being called a possible scum by Thor, but in the grand scheme of things, it's a small part of this game and town react to things poorly all the time, I don't see scum motivation in his post specifically.

Irrelephant11 - It feels like he's been playing very safe and guarded, which is not a great thing. For example, 346 looks long but just doesn't . I sometimes have a hard time differentiating between new to the forum play and scum play. I'd like to have some direct discussion with him, and discuss why he's such a high town read with everyone in the game, though.

Flicker is full of weird voting patterns, in general, 81 is where it first shows up. I'm confused why she thinks people were going to follow her when she hadn't made any case by then, so she just votes to teacher with no read. Then, she acknowledges in 120 (Which seems designed to look busy, by the way) that she's more interested in this teacher push than the James push she just complained about no one following neither of the reads seems genuine to me there, either. 193 has a full read list with one scum read, which she proceeds to not vote, then almost 60 posts later at 250 she finally votes her one scum read, citing wanting to have a reason for James' scum read on her, rather than citing her own scum read on James. Unvotes James right before the deadline despite displaying knowledge of compromise lynches. Then, Day 2 is just as bad, with her convictionless push on Meji.

teacher is the un-CCed tracker claim, I will not even consider lynching an Un-CCed PR claim when we know we have to have either a Tracker or a Doctor out there, based on there being a Jailkeeper.

Meji Fan is not even worth linking posts on, because you can read the ISO so quickly. There is no analysis in any of the posts even the longer posts are just lists of what happened and when it happened. Also, side note, it's weird for town or scum to have made one vote the entire game by the beginning of day 3.

[brassherald]

I just checked the setup chart. I forgot that Jailkeeper could be in there with just 1 PR. I was thinking of Neopolitan that is never by itself.

[brassherald]

Now knowing that teacher is not definitely a PR, I've got to say, as he's admitted, he's scummy. His reaction of scum reading literally anyone that even hints at a scum read of him while denying he is doing so is concerning. Kind of like he expected to come in and scare people off from lynching him by intimidating with a scum read.

Then, there's a tracker claim, which is not necessarily true. He has no results at all from two nights, supposedly targetting the Jailed target, then being jailed himself. But, without anything short of NK15 saying in no unclear terms that he was going to jail teacher last night, we have no real confirmation he was even jailed. If teacher is scum, no one other than scum has Night actions, and you are not informed when you are jailed as a VT, which I have first hand knowledge of from my previous newbie game in this setup. I've seen an early tracker fake claim in this setup as well when it was a relatively new setup by Wilky, which lead to him winning, so it's not unheard of for a tracker fake claim by scum. I don't think that the PR claim would perform the Night Kill, because if I were scum, I wouldn't send the tracker claim with two alive, for an overly complicated reason.

Now, he's pretty much willing to say anyone is scum outside of himself and Meji. Keeping a wide open lynch pool. That's not great this late in the game, in MYLO. With weak cases on every read I have seen, he's willing to vote 4 of the 6 players remaining when we NEED a red flip today.

He also calls my slot scummy basically for Nauci not being present while she was ill, and now has completely discounted Meji even though he has the fewest posts in the game. For someone who loves to claim inconsistencies, that is a glaring inconsistency.

In sum, I think Oxy could be onto something here. (Prepare for an incoming "renewed scum read" on me from teacher)

[brassherald]

Oh, I'll be back tomorrow. I took a few minutes during lunch to type this up, but have to finish a motion. Then, tonight, I'm going on a date night with the fiancee.

Don't expect to hear from me between now and Saturday morning.

[brassherald]

I've skimmed this weekend, but had a busy weekend, and need to prep for Court tomorrow, so this is a prod dodge.

[brassherald]

Good luck tomorrow. The Sovereign district or Supreme? (or other?)

Thanks, it's Supreme, but in New York, that's just the regular state court.

[brassherald]

what's a chainsaw defense?

Chainsaw defense is when you defend someone by attacking their accuser. It's considered a scum tell. I'm not sure it is because it is rather widespread on the site, including where I've seen it from too many people in the game for it to be only scum.

Also, as a reminder to Oxy, teacher and Irrelephant to a smaller degree, we are in MYLO, don't lose sight of the forest for the trees. In other words, don't get caught up in this 1v1 so much that you don't consider anyone else for a lynch today. Especially to teacher, who I really think is barking up the wrong tree with Oxy. He's been the towniest person left in the game, a change in tone at the end or not.

Also, 889 I have a question about, why can we not be in a world where one scum is on the wagon and one is off?

[brassherald]

In response to questions about Oxy being town, he's constantly been reevaluating and adapting. He's constantly been analyzing the game state as well. I don't see how teacher genuinely looks at his posts and says "Yes, this is scum" other than totally BSing this entire time.

If you want, I could pull out some posts from Oxy's ISO that I could only see coming from town.

We're far too deep into the day for me to support a no lynch, by the way.

Also, reevaluating and adapting your reads is a good thing, even if you come to the same result. That's part of why I locktown Oxy.

I'm sorry I am not posting more, I might as well mention here, I am kind of burnt out on mafia right now and thought a newbie game would rejuvinate my excitement. I just need a break from playing.

[brassherald]

Oh, hey, since this game ended, I can finally talk about my real reason for TRing Oxy. I couldn't let onto this before because you can't talk about ongoing games, but I look at this game and the Open 721 and see distinct similarities. I couldn't reveal anywhere that Oxy was town during that game, but this is his town game. He's consistent with his town play here.

I aso find it very convenient that Flicker has as her lynchpool the three people who have mostly said she is likely scum. It's a cop out defense. "If someone is scum reading me, they are probably scum" and she went through and found reasons afterwards. It's suspicious to me.

[brassherald]

I think the team is either Flicker/Teacher or Flicker/Meji at this point. I just don't see the interactions elephant is having being with scum partners at all, especially with Flicker, who's probably the optimal lynch.

That being said, I'm wary about when teacher pulled back the vote as soon as Oxy voted. I've been considering a bit of whether that is a scum-partner reaction. I'm still not sure.

[brassherald]

teacher, if you actually looked at my posts from Friday, you'd almost definitely see me lurking and doing very low content posts in games that finished or withdrawing from games shortly thereafter.

Most of my Friday posts are in now public dead threads! That's different from posting in games, I'm chewing the fat with other people.

I finished a two month game in the Theme Park because it was 2 months long and I just wanted to end it. I posted a whole bunch in a game I modded. Both post game.

Game posts are very different from post game posts, and I'm doing all I can to not just replace out because this is literally the only fucking game standing in the way of me taking a break that I need. If you really want to look at my posts, actually look at how many were in games that were not ended, that needed actual reading to do.

[brassherald]

Also, good job tipping everyone off to not actually bothering to read Open 721, teacher. Talk about bullheaded refusal to improve your reads.

[brassherald]

Oh, hey, guys, I need to have perfect memory for teacher to town read me! God forbid I have a lapse in memory.

I mean, he caught me, there is no time when I can forget something, then remember that same fact at a normal time. Fun fact: I couldn't remember where my car keys were the other day, so now my car is useless, because how is it credible for a human to forget something, then remember it at a later time?

teacher has uncovered my secret that I'm not a robot.

[brassherald]

ayyyy good lynch

You're a sweet kid, Oxy.

[brassherald]

Technically, you do not have to finish Noir if you don't want to be here.

I'm not encouraging you to get out, necessarily, and think you seem like an okay guy, but, hey, just sharing.

[brassherald]

I was in a game that was, in practice, won in the first post. I was Night Killed before making a post, too.

[brassherald]

I was in a game that was, in practice, won in the first post. I was Night Killed before making a post, too.

The game was 5 pages long, and it was a large theme.