Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[Draynth]

Greetings

VOTE: MathDino
A T-Rex capable of performing algebra is a scary prospect

[Draynth]

You ain't seen nothing yet
Have you read the game? I'd say we're solidly out of RVS

I have not, reading now

[Draynth]

If you call me English one more time I'll shoot you.

I may or may not be talking about the game.

Found the Irish / Welsh / Scotsman?

[Draynth]

UNVOTE: MathDino

Also, preliminary reads based on a skimread of the game

Town

AP - 1 or 2 small things that lead me to believe he's town, very little content so far though so this could be subject to change.
MathDino - I like his reasoning for scumreading TW, seems to be thinking about the game in a logical fashion.
ofrhz - The structured approach to breaking down cases and stuff feels super townie (See 386)
Oxy - I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he's saying here
ruru - seems pretty genuine

Null

pinturicchio - no idea what I think of this slot at the minute
Scioness Sajj - Not a whole lot to go off right now, nothing standing out to lead me to believe the slot is town or scum
Skitter30 - Full disclosure, I skipped most of her posts due to the length of them when skimming the thread, I'll go back and read them at some point.
Sunshine13 - Gonna have to reread this slot too I think, two posts in particular stood out but I need to think about what they make me feel sunshine's alignment is.
UglyDuck - Waiting for content.

Scum

Mohab500 - Lot of posting, lot of fluff.
TheWorst - Seems to be trying super hard to be friendly, could be a playstyle thing but I've never played with TW before so I have no idea. Either way I agree with Math's reasoning for scumreading this slot


Overall purely on the initial skim a fair few people seemed townie, not so many seemed scummy. Hoping to go over ISO's and stuff later today / tomorrow.
VOTE: TheWorst
for now

[Draynth]

AP - 1 or 2

small things

that lead me to believe he's town,

very little content so far though so this could be subject to change.

Can you specify what those things are? Italics feels kinda fence-sitty.

Two things:

How am I suppose to know if Dino is wrong? I'm not the mod and I'm not scum.

Also, my lynch is a bad idea. Period

. Only Dr Evil would want me lynched to get his hands on my mojo.
Also also, why are there a lot of ducks and no pussycats?

It might seem weird but the bolded actually really makes me thing he's town

MathDino - I like his reasoning for scumreading TW, seems to be thinking about the game in a logical fashion.

I dislike his reasoning for scumreading TW, and I don't think that thinking logically is particulalry a tontell for him.

Why don't you think that thinking logically is a towntell? or do you mean just for MathDino?

Oxy - I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he's saying here

Is this a reason to townread someone?

I mean that he's thinking similarly to myself and I agree with what he's saying, perhaps it's a bad thing to townread someone for but I feel it nonetheless

TheWorst - Seems to be trying super hard to be friendly, could be a playstyle thing but I've never played with TW before so I have no idea. Either way I agree with Math's reasoning for scumreading this slot

I don't get why you're voting here if you think it could be a playstyle thing. Don't get why you're sheeping math either

Tldr: feels kinda fence-sitty, and like leaving room to switch reads, and I don't really like his TW vote. Like it's all very vague, if that makes sense.

It's nice and early and I wanted to move my vote off RVS, why not?
It's also an attempt to find out if it's purely a playstyle thing and try interact with TW.

[Draynth]

I'm catching up now, lots of posts while I was sleeping

[Draynth]

Spoiler: TW/Math

@Oxy.

VOTE: UglyDuck

ƃuᴉlʞɔnp feels like its trying
Draynth tbc

does anyone wanna help me figure out if uglyduck is getting bussed or if he's the designated mislynch

Sure

Who's voting him atm?

I lol'd

@universe anyone played with draynth before?

He repped into newbie 1797 a year ago ~12 hours before the day1 deadline. He was asleep before I was around, and he got lynched after I went asleep and before he woke up or something, so, like, I was technically in a game with him but we didn't actually interact.

He was more try-hard there, but his slot was imminently getting lynched, so idk if that means much.

What was his alignment? Probably means nothing but circumstantial > nothing

I was town
Game can be found here

It might seem weird but the bolded actually really makes me thing he's town

The line above that is kinda absolving himself of responsiblity for his vote

What did you mean by this?

Why don't you think that thinking logically is a towntell? or do you mean just for MathDino?

I don't think it's a towntell for Math. (Ie that's how town!him plays and I think scum!him emulates that)

I've never played with Math before.
Do you have any suggestions for past games to skim through?
If not I'll find one or two myself

[Draynth]

VOTE: ruru

I know it's already been mentioned but let's not do this

It's also an attempt to find out if it's purely a playstyle thing and try interact with TW.

What. What sort of interactions were you looking to elicit that would allow you to sort his helpfulness as either playstyle indicative or alignment indicative?

Anything at all, I meant to actually ask some questions to follow up but had to head out unexpectedly.
I wanted to see if TW would keep being so chipper and relaxed if put under some pressure, the fact that it was just a naked vote kinda made it redundant though.

HURT: Mohab

Is this just a display of wanting Mohab to be vigged? Haven't played many games with a vig in the setup

Does anyone wanna just compromise and lollynch Draynth

I'm gonna go ahead and suggest against this...?

[Draynth]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=74328
My first game on site (some cringe). Math rep'd into a town slot. I was bad town.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=75173
Few games later, theme game and was pretty scum sided. I was scum Math was town.



Happy to add commentary around those if you'd like

Thanks, I'll have a skim through these now

[Draynth]

Well, sometimes I like to push peope’s buttons, see how they react.

Total scumslip, btw.

And what did you garner from said button pushing?

[Draynth]

Also,

UNVOTE: the worst
Pending reading the two games TW linked

I made the unvote correct because it's annoying for me to have to fix it every vote count.

[Draynth]

VOTE: oxy

content or tunnel

Any update on this?

[Draynth]

my wiki has all my completed games as both alignments so far (tinymeta) along with some thoughts if you'd like a look.

they're good for math/me dynamics but less so for meta reading me specifically

I probably will at some point, work gets awfully boring at times

[Draynth]

@Mohab
Who do you think is town / scum / a flying spaghetti monster rn?

[Draynth]

just stating for the record: I do not trust Oxy currently.
he was either seriously overtired with his last attempt to gamesolve, or he's scum.

Since we're both here, which points in particular do you not agree with?

[Draynth]

Also,

VOTE: Unvote
Pending reading the two games TW linked

While I will count this in my next vote count, in the future, please try to use Unvote tags, rather than Vote tags with Unvote written in.

Sure, bad habit of mine

[Draynth]

Yeah that's kinda weird lol

Also what's IIOA?

Also why did Oxy choose to hard tunnel you (in terms of saying who he wants to lynch) if both you and Ofhrz are scum; why isn't he equally as accountable

[Draynth]

Also why did Oxy choose to hard tunnel you (in terms of saying who he wants to lynch) if both you and Ofhrz are scum; why isn't he equally as accountable

Actually nvm I think I understand why

[Draynth]

information instead of analysis *

tyty

[Draynth]

I still think AP is town despite some of his questionable reads
I want to wait on replies from Sunshine before saying anything about him
Skitter is probably town
I want to skim those games that you linked before commenting on you / MathDino since a lot of the arguments are based on Meta / previous games
I think Oxy is town, he seems to be at least trying to gamesolve

[Draynth]

I'm worried about UglyDuck purely because it seems like he's only saying anything when he's directly mentioned / being scumread
No idea on pintur, I'll probably ISO him now

[Draynth]

@Mohab
Who do you think is town / scum / a flying spaghetti monster rn?

not gonna read all that... sure I'll get bored at night and skim through it and write a response lol

[Draynth]

Based on what you have read so far why do you think myself and skitter are scum?

[Draynth]

ruru could be scum if AND ONLY if Dino is scum, nothing more, nothing more, nothing less. So @scumteam if ruru and Dino are town, you will have to leave Dino alive to make us believe ruru could be scum, what a pickle!

But there's absolutely no chance of ruru being scum and Dino being town at the same time

Why do you think this?

[Draynth]

ruru could be scum if AND ONLY if Dino is scum, nothing more, nothing more, nothing less. So @scumteam if ruru and Dino are town, you will have to leave Dino alive to make us believe ruru could be scum, what a pickle!

But there's absolutely no chance of ruru being scum and Dino being town at the same time

Why do you think this?

I don't think that, I'm sure of that. Read the Scum PT from Newbie 1859 and look how ruru feels at being scum with Dino being town

Will do

[Draynth]

HURT: draynth

Who are your scumreads?

I fixed your tags

Throwing away all of my townreads but 4.

What if Math, Oxy, skitter, and ruru are all town? Given this, who should we lynch today? Please discuss (seriously, I’m stuck).

@ruru/skitter- I kinda feel like Math is town? Like he has a tendency to sheep other people’s reads, which he did last time with ruru and was wrong about (cough cough Math why you do this again), and he was doing that with me. He admitted several times that he didn’t read my posts from last game and didn’t read my posts this game. I don’t think this is out of character for him.

I get that you have other arguments for scumreading Math, but I can’t really comment on those meta arguments.

VOTE: Draynth
I wonder if he has gone back and read through all those games he said he would read.
- insert big thinking emoji here -

HE IS LITERALLY DOING THE EXACT OPPOSITE

You misread the reasoning for my scum reads and now this. Skitter, PLZ READ

That's not really how I read it, but yeah I guess I can see the other way too.

Catching up now, Timezones are annoying this game

[Draynth]

I meant to quote those for this post

HURT: draynth

Who are your scumreads?

You, UD, Mohab (Although this is more due to a lack of content, given the slot is being replaced I'm not sure),

I wonder if he has gone back and read through all those games he said he would read.
- insert big thinking emoji here -

You mean the one game that was linked to me yesterday? I'm reading it now, would you like to read it together?

HE IS LITERALLY DOING THE EXACT OPPOSITE

You misread the reasoning for my scum reads and now this. Skitter, PLZ READ

That's not really how I read it, but yeah I guess I can see the other way too.

I was just saying I didn't want to be lynched, sorry Skitter

[Draynth]

Ya but I am lazy

I'll get to it, who's better to vote?

Considering Math is your top scumread why did you ask this?

PEDIT:
I was just about to ask why exactly people are scumreading Oxy so hard because I don't fully get it

[Draynth]

PEDIT:
I was just about to ask why exactly people are scumreading Oxy so hard because I don't fully get it

Could be town to the fact that I've had to pretty much just skim the thread the past few days, feel free to point out posts rather than retyping stuff

[Draynth]

PEDIT:
I was just about to ask why exactly people are scumreading Oxy so hard because I don't fully get it

Could be

town

down

to the fact that I've had to pretty much just skim the thread the past few days, feel free to point out posts rather than retyping stuff

EBWOP

[Draynth]

Ya but I am lazy

I'll get to it, who's better to vote?

Considering Math is your top scumread why did you ask this?

PEDIT:
I was just about to ask why exactly people are scumreading Oxy so hard because I don't fully get it

This makes more sense in the context of my last 5-10 posts.
If you don't see my angle hmu

Nvm I see it now, tyty

[Draynth]

it is a bit weird that people get more and more comfortable with voting oxy the further he drops down my town list/the longer he spends not in my townbloc

What part of this is weird to you?

imagine for a second that you're mathdino

I did this and now I can't type without having my head about 2 inches from my screen because my arms are too short
Thanks

[Draynth]

Ya but I am lazy

I'll get to it, who's better to vote?

Considering Math is your top scumread why did you ask this?

PEDIT:
I was just about to ask why exactly people are scumreading Oxy so hard because I don't fully get it

This makes more sense in the context of my last 5-10 posts.
If you don't see my angle hmu

Nvm I see it now, tyty

NOW I'M INTRIGUED
Explain my reasoning to me?

I meant your posts that explain why you'd ask your top scumread who you should be voting

Spoiler: posts

I have to answer your questions from a biased POV.

Because I changed my mind when I realised how much sense it makes for scum!Math to tunnel me as a lategame lynch.

Oxy is a scumfuck. Draynth is shady (which is a shame because he's awesome). Otherwise LOTS of townreads.

But I am concerned I'm tunnelling Math too hard, and if I can townread him (or give benefit of the doubt here) I should. Having him in the game is inherently pro town, and if he's town he probably wins this tor us. I just don't like some of his stances today in a big way.

Other reason I am concerned about confbias--I will give townreads too easily for people based on their stances. If I'm wrong this means I run the risk of townblocking scum.

For example atm I am townreading the fuck out of skitter but I am passively aware of the fact scum!skitter pockets me here every time.

Can you hmu with some references (posts are awesome if you have the time) & names of players?

This is part of what I intend to do while deep breathing

[Draynth]

Twinny I'm starting to think you might be scum

And why is that?

[Draynth]

Lurkin thru a bit, kinda lack of conviction in your posts, I'm not really feeling your strong reads....also you were scumreading me one appearance, but suddenly feel very agreeable...

If it makes you feel better lack of conviction has always been an issue for me, reading my most recent completed game is an example

Spoiler: Newbie1858

I really need to be more confident in my hunches, this is like the 3rd game I've been super paranoid about one player just lurking while two people deathtunnel each other and they end up flipping scum
It was kinda hard to focus him at all in retrospect though

Above is an example of my end of game reaction
Game link is here

Obviously this is only one example, If you believe in using meta (I'm not a big fan personally) feel free to go through some other past games too.

I also scumread you mostly based on not knowing whether or not your "niceness", for want of a better word, was playstyle related or not.

I also don't know your meta but given we are literally twins I kinda expected you to follow my wonky trajectory on Math a little.

This is weak w/o meta though, just why this sinking feeling is deepening.... :c

I haven't read into the Math stuff yet as I haven't reviewed the game that pin linked me

[Draynth]

welcome NSG

I find a lot of Oxy's posts in the 1v1 with TW super forced / bending things said to push a narrative

Spoiler: Oxy posts

but your case on me?

Your case on me is that the massive amount of effort I put into this game resulted in a "useless" statistic

And that I'm pocketing mathdino

And that I'm a scumbutt.

So which case is really more nonsensical?

I don't understand this post at all, Oxy never came back to it when TW expressed similar confusion

I think you need to reread my post because you don't seem to understand it, and I was being quite clear.

I'm asking for more.
How you've actually reached these conclusions and why you think they come from scum.

You're pushing a lynchcase not a scumcase fmpov and it's gross


pedit: you know I know how to play scum right

You thought I was talking about dino when I was talking about you amongst other misunderstandings. re read it.

I might just be missing something but I also don't know what he means here, when I read the interaction what TW was saying made sense

I'm out of time for the moment, myself. to be continued.

Looking at the wagon, there's definitely one scum!duck on it right now. He's probably the lone one right now, but in a world where there is a second, it's probably pintu.

This feels weird.
Like he made a big deal out of starting a 1v1, then just nopes out halfway through with a blanket statement?
He mentioned he was on a conference call though so I'm sure there's more to come.

@the worst - I think the timing was bad mannered, but

mohab just got bullied out of this game because people like NSG more

, so I wouldn't have blamed them if they posted their role pm as a big fuck you. basically, it's NAI.

I have no idea who NSG is and I still think Mohab wasn't able to give time to the game

[Draynth]

I feel like you have explained my point for yourself here. in 1859 ruru posted something interesting, here there was nothing really interesting so I have added onto.

I mean, I thought the wagon on TW was interesting, but eh.

I hope this isn't only reason for your current townlean on me

That's just about the only thing I saw to townread you for tbh. I dislike your entrance. I liked that post. I don't think you've posted much else AI at this point.

i don't think town!skitter would grant me a townlean for being silly and only that.

Why not?

[Draynth]

Once again catching up now

[Draynth]

Alright i'm actually catching up this time, yesterday ended up being super busy and I didn't get a chance to post anything after reading.

[Draynth]

pagetop

pedit NO

I am laughing at you for this.

I also laughed at this

Also reading mohab/nsg as town for completely nai reasons, leaving me 10 people to sort. yay.

Wait what

Him saying he will go read some cases but not doing so feels like stalling
Not voting Oxy despite the “Oxy sounds forced” narrative he’s pushing
I mean, he could be lazy town... or he could be lazy scum. He’s null at best

DOES ANYONE ELSE THINK PROMISING THINGS AND NOT DELIVERING IS A SCUMTELL

These are just two posts that I quoted while reading, there were more.
Basically everyone seems convinced that me saying I'd try to read a game to come up with meta reads and then not doing it is scummy.
A) I've already expressed that I dislike using meta personally. That doesnt excuse myself from not doing what I said I'd do mind.
B) I'm busy
C) If y'all are so obsessed with meta then why the hell have none of you done a meta check on me?

Seriously, people keep using a blanket excuse of it's old, etc. but wouldn't this solve most of the issues that people have with believing I'm town?
Like I'm happy to link games of both alignments if people aren't arsed looking through past topics.
I just find it hilarious how many people here are reading people based on meta, then refusing to do the same for me even though the biggest reason for scumreading me can easily be seen as a NAI trait in my previous games (I have a history of being super lazy when I shouldn't be).
I'm not trying to say that me doing this is a good thing, it routinely leads to me shooting myself in my foot, but it's a fact nonetheless.

[Draynth]

Anyway, Oxy is scum

VOTE: Oxy

[Draynth]

@Draynth

can you give me a couple of games of yours as recommend reading?
1-2 town and 1-2 scum?

Town: Most recent game, very disconnected to the game D1, tried to make up for it later on but got quicklynched at LYLO.
Town: I was more involved D1 this game but I ended up getting NK'd n1 so make of it what you will.
Town: I survived to LYLO this game but was certain for most of the game that any read I had was wrong IIRC.

Scum: Honestly I don't remember a whole lot about this game, IIRC town kinda shot themselves in the foot.
Scum: This was two years ago, think town quickhammered another townie to finish the game.

[Draynth]

@Draynth

can you give me a couple of games of yours as recommend reading?
1-2 town and 1-2 scum?

Town: Most recent game, very disconnected to the game D1, tried to make up for it later on but got quicklynched at LYLO.
Town: I was more involved D1 this game but I ended up getting NK'd n1 so make of it what you will.
Town: I survived to LYLO this game but was certain for most of the game that any read I had was wrong IIRC.

Scum: Honestly I don't remember a whole lot about this game, IIRC town kinda shot themselves in the foot.
Scum: This was two years ago, think town quickhammered another townie to finish the game.

I intentionally only included games that I didn't replace out of by the way, unfortunately I've had to do it quite a bit in the past.

[Draynth]

I'm here sorry, catching up in the morning.
Been a very busy couple of days

[Draynth]

I'm at L-2 so I'm not claiming

Oxy is scum, so is MD at this point

[Draynth]

I'm at L-2 so I'm not claiming

Oxy is scum, so is MD at this point

If that's all he's got to say after all that time, I don't think bad to rejoin that wagon at all.

I mean I'm still at L-2 so i'm not gonna claim now either

Why would I ever claim if I'm not actually going to be lynched?

[Draynth]

Actually I didn't realise it was only 12 hours, I'd still

really

rather not if I don't have to though

[Draynth]

Can you at least post up to date reads?

Working on it as we speak, sorry for the delay

[Draynth]

And skitter30 you don't get to vanity wagon me with 26 hours on the deadline
I don't know if you're trying to stay off both wagons or what
I gave the option to lynch scioness and people chose her counterwagons
Not lynching oxy no matter what you think of my progression on him

BTW found this post hilarious given he tried to start an NSG wagon with like 30 hours left on the deadline

[Draynth]

I'd be fine with an MD lynch

VOTE: MathDino

That's L-2

[Draynth]

Brief readslist

Spoiler: AP (Town)

I still think AP is town, but his intent on getting a strong PR suspect (by his own admission) to claim D1 is frustrating for me

Spoiler: Mathdino (Scum)

I think math is scum.
He seems a strong advocate for using meta and consistently cited it when reading people. That's fine.
What's not fine is when he reverts back to a "lynch draynth" mentality at various points throughout the day without bothering to A)do a metadive which he said he'd do (and yet you want to lynch me for similar reasons) B)read any of the games I linked for the above reason.
Also him switching to NSG with like 30 hours left while also calling skitter out for doing the same is super scummy to me.
Lastly is the points that TW and Skitter have discussed, makes a lot of sense in my books.

Spoiler: TheWorst (Town)

TW is probably town, read progression seems legitimate and doesn't seem to be trying to push any specific lynches but lynch the best candidate.

Spoiler: Sunshine13 (Town)

I really like his point about people pushing a no information lynch, it's a good observation in my opinion.

Spoiler: Uglyduck (Town)

Despite him trying to lynch me I think he's probably town.
The only thing I'm concerned about is how easily he tried to jump on NSG with MD (Possible scum partners?) but he said he was reading backwards which if true would make sense.

Spoiler: NSG (Town)

Probably town, seems genuinely frustrated with Math's arguments against her case(s). Doesn't feel like forced anger from scum.

Spoiler: Oxy (Scum)

He's Scum.
He's Scum.
He's Scum.
He's Scum.
He's Scum.
Did you really think there'd be anything else here?

Spoiler: Skitter30 (Town)

Skitter is obvtown to me at this point

Spoiler: pinturicchio (Town)

Everything he brings up feels like it's from a town trying to solve the game POV rather than scum trying to push a narrative POV

Spoiler: Scioness Sajj (Town)

Might seem weird but suggesting her own lynch seems townie to me as it's a kind of "Vt's are expendable, lynch me for info" kinda view. I don't necessarily agree with it but I also can't see scum suggesting it so *shrug*

Spoiler: ofrhz (Slight Scum lean)

He's felt super opportunistic for most of the game tbh

Spoiler: ruru (Town)

*Insert Tumbleweed.jpeg*

[Draynth]

UNVOTE: MathDino

[Draynth]

HA screw you duck

<3

can't believe we're sitting here with 3 PRs still alive but so it goes

so, show of hands
A. that kill was to remove oxy's lyncher and to keep me alive to defend oxy
B. that kill was the most obvious frame-up job on oxy ever and scum are on his wagon

I'd be inclined to believe A over B since it just seems too naive I guess

oh yeah and lol at there being no vig

draynth if you're a cop you should out your result now

I'm not a cop.

[Draynth]

I'm in work at the minute will catch up and post when I get home

[Draynth]

I'm in work at the minute will catch up and post when I get home

54 hours and Draynth is still at work and never got home to catch up and post. Please give him a couple more decades and he'll be back.

Appreciate the extra time thanks, tricky client to deal with

I'm the town JK, targeted MD n1

[Draynth]

I jailed Math last night

VOTE: Pinturicchio

[Draynth]

At this point pintu is confscum to me so my vote isn't moving off him either way.

Also NSG could still be town even with pintu being scum since the scumteam know who is town.
Would a scum fakeclaiming cop really fake a town result on a partner rather than on an actual townie to gain claim credit?

[Draynth]

Scumteam is pintu + Math + Brassherald, the game is secretly bastard and there are 4 scum + a fake IC.

Game. Solved.

[Draynth]

I wasn't saying NSG wasn't most likely his partner, I was thinking out loud about the

possibility

of him actually being town.
No idea who next most likely would be

[Draynth]

i'm saying you should not be voting pintu today

Why wouldn't I vote the confscum? I'm well aware that he's less likely to be town in your opinion but hey, that's life

[Draynth]

I was jk :/

[Draynth]

Sorry guys bad game from me, was very busy irl

[Draynth]

thanks for modding brass