Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Ythan]

Is this a good place for normalcy questions?

Does combined apply only to active abilities with targets? How for example would a combined cop doctor commuter work under the normal guidelines?

[Ythan]

Seems like a slightly more fun vanilla townie and yes I'd say it's normal.

[Ythan]

That seems like a problem with activated.

[Ythan]

I guess I don't see it because it seems like such a harmless joke ability.

[Ythan]

You can optionally appear as scum to investigations. So you forget you ever had a power and play as a named vanilla townie. Unless I'm missing something.

[Ythan]

Seems like a slightly more fun vanilla townie

[Ythan]

An anything finder, without multitasking.

[Ythan]

Cop-finder/doctor-finder/roleblocker-finder/...

[Ythan]

Can't vanilla cop find vanillas of any alignment? How does finder work wrt vanilla townie/goon/vanilla serial killer?

[Ythan]

I'm going to throw my hat in with this role sounds cool.

[Ythan]

The point is that the finder as it exists is even more unfun.

[Ythan]

I don't think the purpose of the whitelist is good roles but rather known roles that conform to the normalcy guidelines. So yes I guess.

[Ythan]

What about targets with multiple abilities if you already covered this tldr.

[Ythan]

The issue here is referring to a traffic analyst variant as a something cop in a game with gunsmiths. It should probably have been called something else if that's how it's gonna be.

[Ythan]

Neat!

[Ythan]

It doesn't really feel like a matter of taste though so much as understanding that 50% is sufficient or not understanding.

[Ythan]

We could both allow mods to spell it out and establish a standard for games in which they don't. Win win?

[Ythan]

I see that backups of roles with guns are listed as having guns. I think the reverse is reasonable but I'm not sure how I'd phrase it in that list.

[Ythan]

It sounds like it would be a goon that becomes a traitor when the traitor dies, which, lol.

[Ythan]

That's my interpretation of the interaction.

[Ythan]

I disagree that it's a lie but it's a plausible change you're suggesting anyway I guess if people are into it.

[Ythan]

Years and years ago when I sometimes modded I ran a game full of red herring roles that was actually just a confusing vanilla game.

[Ythan]

You have notably interesting and clever thoughts on mafia mechanics (notably even in a forum about mafia) and I've thought so for a while now.

[Ythan]

That's an interesting question Wake. I have nothing to add but I'd be interested as well theoretically, although launching such a large game is a whole other thing.

[Ythan]

I'd be interested in a just huge game with no special mechanics to make it bearable.

[Ythan]

Wow are checker and visitor really not normal?

[Ythan]

All three of those are actually, good.

[Ythan]

I don't read pedits it's a bad habit.

[Ythan]

Sounds tangentially related to how detective works.

[Ythan]

Normalcy is nebulous because it's just defined by arbitrary (if overall sensible) inclusion in a list. It's difficult to say what else could or could not be normal because the answer is whatever gets on that list.

My two cents in case anyone finds it interesting idk!

[Ythan]

Normality really needs to be defined or else it's just a cloudy "plays like a typical Mafia game" that leads to the Normal role list being bottom up (like it is now) instead of top down.

If there was some way we could do this it would be wonderful.

[Ythan]

Normality really needs to be defined or else it's just a cloudy "plays like a typical Mafia game" that leads to the Normal role list being bottom up (like it is now) instead of top down.

If there was some way we could do this it would be wonderful.

it would require literally building Normal from the ground up again so I doubt the NRG would do that

maybe an intermediate solution would work in outlining the expectations players have for a Normal game?

Agreed and agreed.

[Ythan]

Wow good feedback.

[Ythan]

Only just noticed that this thread does not actually seem to be for recommending changes. Or has that changed since the op, and that not been updated?

[Ythan]

Have you considered something close to "mostly normal" games in the theme queue with their own guidelines as to what constitutes "mostly normalcy"?

[Ythan]

Seems like the ideal (within the existing queue arrangement) place to test roles and modifiers for potential inclusion in the real normal list as well.

[Ythan]

I mean, The Mini Theme Queue ain't exactly poppin'

My suggestion would if anything help with that problem I think.

Although as Gamma points out it's not really my suggestion this is a thing that has been tried before with success.

[Ythan]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=77822

[Ythan]

But like, if the queue is empty, and the kind of games you want are best suited to that queue,

[Ythan]

But like, if the queue is empty, and the kind of games you want are best suited to that queue,

@Jake

[Ythan]

That makes sense. I think it's a good option when someone (a mod specifically) does want to step just a toe outside the normal queues though.

Pedit at Jake again

[Ythan]

Could there be a review of the game by mods/NRG just to get their feedback on how it went and any pros/cons of the tested role?

Smart

[Ythan]

Possibly a lot of work but there's bound to be ways to mitigate that.

[Ythan]

Genuine.

[Ythan]

You could do neighborhoods of people with an informed modifier that no one in the hood is x faction.

Whoa this is sharp.

[Ythan]

I also like your suggestion Jake I just got distracted by Dwlee's deft application of the informed modifier. It does seem that it could be used within the current normal guidelines to accomplish the same effect. Always behind any streamlining though.

[Ythan]

I think what he's getting at is that you can describe masons as neighbors plus more (specifically, information), even if they did come first. So they're more complex in that they can be broken down into two other roles, even if those roles didn't exist when masons were first conceived which I suppose probably predates this site.

[Ythan]

Informed Neighbors

Nope!
With Masons and Informed Neighbors are not the same.
Informed gets redacted upon flip.
Mason does not.
(the identity of the other Mason(s) is/are redacted, but not what the mason was informed of)

Ah yes.

[Ythan]

I don't see why actions should ever be submitted in a way that makes their meaning ambiguous. Could you give me an example of what you mean?

[Ythan]

To be clear my answer is yes if not already the case.

[Ythan]

I see now, I wasn't familiar with the normal guidelines on the compulsive modifier. That does sort of interact oddly with multitasking but at the same time if you fail to submit an action you have Fucked Up and those guidelines are only there to ensure that a non random method exists to resolve the situation as per normal guidelines. I don't think there's any reason at all to worry about what the absentee compulsive intended with the list.

[Ythan]

If a 1-Shot Backup Tracker tries to track someone before a Tracker has died (who knows why, maybe they misunderstood the role PM), does this failed attempt use up their one shot?

One shot backup or backup one shot? I'm joking but also maybe.

[Ythan]

The question of how abilities that effect or detect certain roles react to to modifiers is an interesting one.

[Ythan]

Ideally there would be a better name for backup that would make the principled answer less unintuitive.

@Imp

[Ythan]

Are there any other modifiers we don't want triggering a backup? If it can just require a non-backup that would be a pretty simple solution.

[Ythan]

Nice.