Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Amrun]

Why isn’t vanillizer normal?

[Amrun]

Why isn’t vanillizer normal?

It works best in role madness, so if a game wants a vanillaiser it probably also wants to be a Theme game. In games with only a few power roles, town vanillaisers normally backfire, and scum vanillaisers are hard to balance (roleblockers are hard enough to balance in games with few power roles, and vanillaisers have a much stronger version of the same effect).

There are also two versions of the role, so you'd have to pick one to Normalise if you were going to (the version where the player knows their role has changed, and the version which leaves a permanent roleblocking effect on them).

I don’t see any of these as barriers to normal. I do think a normal version should know their role has changed.

Something being “hard to balance” or an implication it would be used rarely doesn’t make it not normal.

[Amrun]

I agree with the above. However, I think a vanillizer is a perfectly normal role and should be whitelisted. This is my campaign.

[Amrun]

VANILLIZER SHPULD BE NORMAL

[Amrun]

I like mastina’s list though.

[Amrun]

Vanillaizer is probably the one role I'd unblacklist but it's very hard to justify it being fit for Normal because even though it's a weaker way to completely hose a PR than a Vigilante it involves a role change (assuming it's the Vanillaizer that informs the target their role was changed and flips like "

Named Townie

turned

Vanilla Townie

"). (named townie isn't normal but named with the allowed names being Named or Chocolate might be worth considering).

And the alternate forme, Seraph Rogue (fixed roleblocker), would have a very hard time being normalized since Seraph Knight (fixed doctor) isn't normal.

It would be best considered for unblacklisting when we inevitably get the greylist back, though I want Lynchproof (and by extension Deathproof) blacklisted since the lynch is supposed to be normal in a normal.

I highly doubt Vanillaizer will be considered Normal even in a greylist world though, mostly because role changes are not normal.

I don’t think the way vanillizer changes roles (if the target is told, which they should be, in a normal version) is inherently abnormal. Neapolitan is normal, so vanillizer should be.

[Amrun]

Are there any current ideas close to being normalized?

I feel like there aren't too many options considering Normal Mafia has so few layers.

I don’t think any of your suggestions so far should be normal. The player base for normals don’t want role madness layers. There’s a place for this type of role: in themes.

[Amrun]

Are there any current ideas close to being normalized?

I feel like there aren't too many options considering Normal Mafia has so few layers.

I don’t think any of your suggestions so far should be normal. The player base for normals don’t want role madness layers. There’s a place for this type of role: in themes.

Do you disagree about the current form of traitor?

Uh truthfully I’d have to look up what is current on that one. I’m out of date.

[Amrun]

Are there any current ideas close to being normalized?

I feel like there aren't too many options considering Normal Mafia has so few layers.

I don’t think any of your suggestions so far should be normal. The player base for normals don’t want role madness layers. There’s a place for this type of role: in themes.

Do you disagree about the current form of traitor?

Is it the no recruitment you take issue with?

[Amrun]

@gobble: it is bizarre that traitor can’t win alone.

[Amrun]

Yes thank you! Also plz reconsider vanillizer as normal (at least for scum).

[Amrun]

I agree Ninja shouldn’t be normal. I was shocked it was when I checked.

[Amrun]

I agree Ninja shouldn’t be normal. I was shocked it was when I checked.

why

Just didn’t fit what I fundamentally felt was normal. For me, normals you should generally be able to trust that your results are accurate.

[Amrun]

Idk I just feel like if you track X to nowhere in a normal you shouldn’t have to speculate “but what if they’re a ninja?”

That’s for themes.

[Amrun]

Ninja implies tracker though, just by existing.

[Amrun]

True. Watcher is an unpopular role.

I agree ninja/watcher combo is much less odious though.

I think ninja should just not be normal though.

Wouldn’t cry if miller wasn’t normal either tbh.

[Amrun]

What do you mean by 328

Instead of having the permitted roles and mechanics outline the principles and expectations of Normal, have the principles and expectations of Normal outline the permitted roles and mechanics.

There's BooneyToonz if you want a bottom-up Normal game.

I completely agree. We need to agree on what, fundamentally, IS the concept of a normal game, and then allow/disallow roles based on their adherence to that concept.

Axe ninja and Miller. They’re not needed and contradict the idea of Normal IMO.

Vanillizer, on the other hand, does not, IMO. At this point in time the “normal” designation seems arbitrary.

Personally, I would also axe multitasking! But that’s more debatable.

P-edit: Yes, it would be powerful. That’s a question of balance, not which roles are normal. Currently, ungated cops are not usually used, and that trend would continue.

[Amrun]

Amrun, what is your concept of a normal that multitasking defeats?

It doesn’t directly defy normality in the way that ninja does.

It complicates the mechanics of scum. Let’s say in a mini, you have one scum left alive, and you are able to know through role information that X player performed Y action. A kill also happens.

With multitasking in the game, this means little. Without multitasking in the game, this is a mechanical clear.

For NORMAL, I prefer not to have that type of WIFOM. Mechanical clears DO NOT happen very often and that situation is rare, so I don’t worry about it giving the town an advantage. It lets everyone play off of the same expectations, scum and town included.

[Amrun]

Also, exactly what RC said, if his response was better stated.

[Amrun]

I think roles like multitasking, ninja, Miller, all have their place in mafia, but not in normals. To me, normals should be a space in which everyone knows the rules, the norms, and what to expect, exactly. Themes are where we turn those expectations on their heads.

[Amrun]

Ideally balance concerns as it concerns a setup should be reserved for review.

I really don't agree with axing Multitasking unless you want Normal to be synonymous with boring. If so, Combined should go as well (as it isn't clear if it counts as 1 or 2 actions).

I don’t even know what combined is.

I mean mountainous is fun. Basic mafia is fun and brings it back to basics. That’s the space for normals to occupy, IMO. PLUS, I have seen TONS of really cool set ups that didn’t utilize any of the above roles. Look at Plum’s last mini normal. It was really neat and kept town guessing and setup spec continuously through the game, but still met every expectation I have of a normal game.

[Amrun]

Don’t we have a problem with town winning the majority of normal games? I feel like getting rid of multitasking makes that more of an issue.

How? Design balanced games, period.

A completely OK compromise is if it must be disclosed in rule set.

[Amrun]

I think you can very easily have fun, interesting games using only basic roles and thinking that's not true defeats the point of normalcy

Agree 100%!


Here’s the Plum set up that I referred to earlier. I think it’s a fantastic positive example.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=81010

P-edit: ew, combined can go too, for sure.

I preferred the grey list too.

[Amrun]

For the record, so am I.

I hate the WIFOM of “can they or can’t they?” It needs to be standardized one way or the other.

[Amrun]

It depends on what the role pm says

If it says you get the other guys role, then yeah you're an indecisive whatever

If it says you become a cop if a cop dies, and an indecisive cop dies, then no you're not indecisive

It should be normalized for normals though.

[Amrun]

I know. I was just saying. I would have chosen the former.

[Amrun]

Could a Bodyguard that also kills the attacker (while still dying) be possible in Normal?

No.

[Amrun]

What do you mean by 328

Instead of having the permitted roles and mechanics outline the principles and expectations of Normal, have the principles and expectations of Normal outline the permitted roles and mechanics.

There's BooneyToonz if you want a bottom-up Normal game.

I completely agree. We need to agree on what, fundamentally, IS the concept of a normal game, and then allow/disallow roles based on their adherence to that concept.

Axe ninja and Miller. They’re not needed and contradict the idea of Normal IMO.

Vanillizer, on the other hand, does not, IMO. At this point in time the “normal” designation seems arbitrary.

Personally, I would also axe multitasking! But that’s more debatable.

P-edit: Yes, it would be powerful. That’s a question of balance, not which roles are normal. Currently, ungated cops are not usually used, and that trend would continue.

Tbh what grounds do you consider vanillaizer normal by
Like I wouldn’t want to be able to lose my role in a Normal, that just doesn’t seem fun at all
That seems like solid reason for it to not be normal

I don’t see a problem with it. It’s just a permanent roleblock. However, that’s not really my hill to die on, just my two cents. I could see it being very interesting in combo with Neapolitan or similar.

Ninja and gunsmith aren’t similar at all, as RC said. You know what types of roles return guns. I think gunsmith role is great, btw.

[Amrun]

I will hard veto and lobby against any game especially normals to include Vanillalizer as a role. That role is so incredibly unfun to play against as town.

I don’t see why?

I mean, straight up mountainous is fun. For me at least.

I don’t think it should be used often. I just don’t know why it’s not an option.

[Amrun]

I will hard veto and lobby against any game especially normals to include Vanillalizer as a role. That role is so incredibly unfun to play against as town.

I don’t see why?

I mean, straight up mountainous is fun. For me at least.

I don’t think it should be used often. I just don’t know why it’s not an option.

For balancing purposes, it is like giving the mafia a vigilante kill. It removes a town power in addition to the factional kill.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

It would need to be balanced carefully but it is NOT like a vigilante kill.

[Amrun]

I don’t think those types of roles belong in Normals. However, they could be very fun in a theme.

[Amrun]

Says the guy lobbying for Normalized Vanillaizer

A vanillaizer is a long standing role that everyone is familiar with.

These new variants change how we think about the game and would have people needing to look them up, so they’re not normal. Totally viable roles though.

[Amrun]

Says the guy lobbying for Normalized Vanillaizer

A vanillaizer is a long standing role that everyone is familiar with.

These new variants change how we think about the game and would have people needing to look them up, so they’re not normal. Totally viable roles though.

Wasn't Gunsmith like that when it was introduced?
And "long standing" + "familiar" doesn't make it fair at all.

If I thought vanillizer was unfair, I’d agree with you. Being long-standing doesn’t give it a pass. Being new doesn’t make it not good. I don’t think there’s a need for Tailor, but if we normalized/standardized what roles had what clothes, it could work. I just think that design space is already filled with gunsmith.

But I agree that vanillizer rewards good scum play and can even have cool design application as town. I don’t think it should be used a lot but I think nothing makes it ABNORMAL.

[Amrun]

^ no but we should.

[Amrun]

vanillaizer is a very strong scum role and a pretty weak town role

It's almost as strong as giving scum a vigilante, but town might see it as negative utility.

I disagree about the degree of strength, but I think an ungated vanillizer would be exceedingly rare anyway. Just because something is difficult to balance doesn’t make it not normal - that’s what reviews are for.

[Amrun]

Pops makes a good point re: fakeclaims. I would be fine with vanillizer being town only.

[Amrun]

However, that essentially clears a slot.

How? There are many town-only roles, such as vig.

[Amrun]

I don't think Town Vanillaizer would be too much to ask for but it does technically violate an expectation of Normal (Roles should never change), but Backup (technically not if you consider it a modifier and not part of a role) and UBackup (no excuse there) also violate that expectation.

I really think we need to outline the expectations of Normal and then decide if Town Vanillaizer is normal or not.

Agree with this.

[Amrun]

Having to worry about uncommon roles that place a lot of undue influence on a Normal just by possibly existing is not Normal.

Agreed, and Ninja should be removed from the whitelist and Miller has less direct need for that but probably should as well.

I agree with this version of normal and that maybe vanillizer shouldn’t be normal if we use that. However, what “Normal” is isn’t standardized and needs to be.

[Amrun]

It does exist. Not sure if normal. I’d have no objections to that one being normal though. It’s solid.

[Amrun]

Yeah I like that modifier too.