Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Wake1]

I'm unsure which thread is the right place to ask this, but is it possible to make Super Saint an acceptable role in Normal games?

We already have the Vengeful modifier which allows the lynched to kill anyone they want. The SS seems like a far more restricted role: weaker than Vengeful modifier.

[Wake1]

Supersaint makes vote/hammer order relevant; it normally isn't in Normals.

As such, I don't think this would be a good idea, because optimal play in a game that could potentially contain a Supersaint is to for town to leash who hammers on every single lynch (even if there isn't an actual Supersaint there). That would end up making all Normals worse, even ones without the role, for a very minimal game; so the role should probably be blacklisted.

I don't understand why Vengeful is allowed then, because the Vengeful modifier is far more powerful, allowing the lynched to kill literally anyone.

[Wake1]

I understand why SS isn't whitelisted now. Thanks all for taking your time to explain it.

[Wake1]

I think I really like the 'Announcing' and 'Loud' modifiers.

Is there any way to create the opposites of those modifiers, where the target is informed that and action or target targeted them?

'Announcing' and 'Loud' are on player A, and player A targets player B. I'd like to see another version that is on player B instead. Like 'Listening' and/or 'Careful.'

[Wake1]

Also, could a modifier be made in which a Scum faction can't kill Town?

Like a Serial Killer that's given a modifier so it can't kill Town.

I think the variety of new PRs and modifiers is wonderful, and I'd like to see if any more could be created.

[Wake1]

I think maybe a new Normal role should be tried.

Let's say the play could tap into a player who's part of a neighborhood, and could listen in on their discussions. Not sure if the other players being eavesdropped on would be able to tell. 'Wiretapper' would be neat, and would not be able to see Scum PTs with that ability.

[Wake1]

I think maybe a new Normal role should be tried.

Let's say the play could tap into a player who's part of a neighborhood, and could listen in on their discussions. Not sure if the other players being eavesdropped on would be able to tell. 'Wiretapper' would be neat, and would not be able to see Scum PTs with that ability.

I think this is literally not possible with our current forum software . Well, the version where the eavesdropped victims are notified works.

Ah, I see.

Maybe the one where they're notified would be alright for Normals?

I want to try to create new roles for Normal games. I keep trying to think of different layers or angels to create fair yet fun roles.

[Wake1]

Is it possible to add any Normal roles that can affect votes?

Like a role that can either null a vote or force someone who isn't voting to vote?

[Wake1]

Is it possible to add any Normal roles that can affect votes?

Like a role that can either null a vote or force someone who isn't voting to vote?

There are multiple reasons a vote alterer isn't Normal.

1. Day roles aren't Normal.
2. It isn't clear on whether vote alterers take effect immediately or when the next VC is posted.
3. Either resolution to reason 2 would result in a bastard role, either for introducing uncertainty where your vote is (and by potentially making the votes lie), or by

allowing direct moderator influence

4. Voting roles in general affect how lynching takes place, and having to worry about someone being a doublevoter or governor and ruining a plan to L-1 with intent is not normal.

Thank you for explaining that Lich.

[Wake1]

How about like a 'Gifter' role/modifier?

Instead of using a PR, you give someone else at night a 1-Shot PR ability that they could use the

next

night.

[Wake1]

Are there any current ideas close to being normalized?

I feel like there aren't too many options considering Normal Mafia has so few layers.

[Wake1]

I'm not sure what is meant by layers.

Layers of complexity. Added dimensions to the game.

[Wake1]

I think, for Normal games, allowing for more Neighborhoods creates an added layer of complexity without compromising power balance. Instead of putting "/Neighbor" onto role PMs, just include the Neighborhood link into their role PM and then put on game post that at at least one Neighborhood may or may not exist... for the sake of simplicity.

[Wake1]

Could Bomb be normalized, perchance?

If NK'd the Bomb also takes out its attacker, which could be neat.

[Wake1]

Maybe Paranoid Gun Owner instead to make it not just dangerous for Mafia? Another reactive one-time killing role could be neat.

[Wake1]

I wish there could be allowed a variation of Miller that would give the correct result if Copped, but if tracked/watched/followed/voyeured it'd automatically turn up a positive result.

[Wake1]

How are you envisioning that working?

Like if that role waa tracked, what would you seem

Eh, good question.

[Wake1]

Could a Bodyguard that also kills the attacker (while still dying) be possible in Normal?

[Wake1]

It sounds like you want to play/run a mini theme game Wake

I actually do have some explosively creative and fun ideas for a theme game. Problem is it'd take a while to flesh it all out.

In terms of Normal games, I'd just like to see more small things added that won't break the game or how Normal games function, but still adds a little more subtlety to the game. For example the 'Loud' and 'Announcing' modifiers were brilliant. If more things like that were made it'd be pretty neat. Like having a 3rd player be informed that somewhere in the game Player 2 was tracked, etc.

[Wake1]

I think we need more flavor roles like Gunsmith.

Like how a role can check for guns across various roles, have another check for, say, specific clothing, etc.

[Wake1]

I think we need more flavor roles like Gunsmith.

Like how a role can check for guns across various roles, have another check for, say, specific clothing, etc.

i like this idea

Like, create a role called the "Tailor," who can check and see who's wearing a suit or isn't. Then we decide which PRs wear suits and which don't.

[Wake1]

What Town roles would wear a suit btw
I like the idea but imo it has very limited unique utility

Or maybe a uniform?

Cops wear uniforms.

A doctor wears scrubs.

I don't know.

I do know the Gunsmith role is an example of where Mafia could be expanded next.

I should create a themed Mafia game using this kind of angle, and perhaps those roles could become Normalized.

A Tailor could check what kind of clothing someone is wearing. A Chef could perhaps tell what kind of food a PR would like. I don't know.

More roles exactly like the Gunsmith. That, I think, is the way to expand this game Normally.

[Wake1]

Alright, so Cops would pretty clearly like donuts, what about some other roles?

We've got Babysitter, Fruit Vendor, Defective, Mailman, Psychologist...

We Just need to create more job-like roles, and then flesh them out more. And these jobs could act similar to the Gunsmith, providing information without definitely proving someone's guilt.

If I create another large theme game I could create many more roles similar to the Gunsmith, and try to flesh out identifiable information attached to each role.

[Wake1]

I don’t think those types of roles belong in Normals. However, they could be very fun in a theme.

They're basically just like the Gunsmith, but different variations.

The Gunsmith checks if someone else owns a gun. The "X" role checks if that other player has a "Y".

[Wake1]

Is it possible to make a Normal role like the PT Cop that ONLY checks to see if the target is in a Neighborhood or not?

Not sure if it exists already or not. IF not, I think that should be added, because it's weaker than the PT Cop and can't determine anyone's alignment.

[Wake1]

Out of curiosity, who has final say in creating new Normal roles?

I would love to see this Neighborhood Cop be created soon. Feels perfectly balanced to me.

[Wake1]

I feel like a modifier should be made that, when an action successfully targets a play, that player is notified that "something happened." Doesn't reveal what happened, who targeted the player, or how many players targeted the player.

Just adds that teeny tiny bit of information that could maybe be used later. Doesn't reveal alignment at all.

[Wake1]

I kinda do want the "neighborhood cop" and the modifier.

Considering the modifier is a weaker version of Loud/Announcing, I think Noticeable is a good name for it.

Oh I like that.

[Wake1]

Is it also possible to add to the Normal wiki the role/modifier we discussed earlier?

The Neighborhood Cop and the Listening modifier?

[Wake1]

Is it possible that Mafiascum could make a new section where we can play Normal games BUT trial new roles and modifiers to see how they interact, and if they could be whitelisted?

I'd like to see the modifier that's the opposite of Loud enacted.

And I was thinking a "Delayed" modifier would be neat.

Also the Neighborhood Cop should be added like now.

[Wake1]

Has the Neighborhood Cop been considered/added yet?

It'd be a great addition to Normal Games.

[Wake1]

Personal PT Cop is very close (the only difference is that it gets a positive on Masons too).

I'm not sure it has much design utility, though.

Could the Neighborhood Cop please be added?

The weaker the PR, the better it is for the game. I'd rather see a bunch of different watered-down PRs added to give people more, different slivers of information.

[Wake1]

Is it possible to add a faction to Normal games that win with the Town, but don't necessarily need the Town?

I know that's always been reserved for "non-normal" games, but the idea of "normal" will continue evolving.

Like 2 "Rival" roles. One in Purple faction, the other in Orange faction: both can kill at Night (or Odd/Even), and both are aligned with Town and need to kill Scum, but also need to kill the other for a complete (100%) win.

EDIT: Even better, they can only kill other Rivals. Can't kill Town or Scum factions. Can even tip off Informed Townies/Scum about it.

[Wake1]

Also, I feel that the "Informed" modifier is criminally underutilized.

[Wake1]

Imo it’s probably criminally OVERutilized

Really?

I haven't ever come across it in Normal games.

[Wake1]

Touché.

[Wake1]

Is it possible to add a faction to Normal games that win with the Town, but don't necessarily need the Town?

I know that's always been reserved for "non-normal" games, but the idea of "normal" will continue evolving.

Like 2 "Rival" roles. One in Purple faction, the other in Orange faction: both can kill at Night (or Odd/Even), and both are aligned with Town and need to kill Scum, but also need to kill the other for a complete (100%) win.

EDIT: Even better, they can only kill other Rivals. Can't kill Town or Scum factions. Can even tip off Informed Townies/Scum about it.

Anyone?

I think it's a great idea.

[Wake1]

I think the Town-aligned Rival factions would be a great adaptation to Normal games. We have a Serial Killer faction. A de-facto Town-aligned faction should be considered.

In a smaller Normal game it could be a bit constrained, but in a larger Normal game it would be interesting.

I think in order for base Mafia to grow it needs to slowly expand in all areas. Since 5 years ago the amount of Normal roles and modifiers have increased dramatically. It needs to continue, and not just with roles and modifiers, in my opinion.

Or an "Emperor" faction would be neat. Where 1-3 players ("Soldiers") are aligned with the Emperor and know who the Emperor is, but the Emperor does not know who/what is aligned with that player. The Soldiers would have to keep the Emperor alive at all costs through discourse, and in general would have no abilities. The Emperor would have no abilities either. I was thinking the Emperor/Soldiers could either be a stand-alone faction that needs to kill Town/Scum (like a SK-like group that can't NK, or be Town-aligned. If the Emperor does then the Soldiers revert to VTs.

[Wake1]

One role I used in the past many years ago was the "Usurper" role. It was just a SK that couldn't NK. A 3rd-party VT. Looking back, I'd make it so that if it's the last 1 of 2 with either Scum or Town it would win. But it'd be all by itself, can't kill, and would have to have a silver tongue and be cunning to survive throughout the whole game.

[Wake1]

If a Normal game were massive, like 50+ players, is it feasible to allow three Mafia factions? (No Serial Killer)

I figure if the games are extremely big couldn't proportional exceptions be made? Or have two Mafia factions with lots of members each.

I'd like to see more modifiers that focus only on Mafia vs Mafia play.

[Wake1]

If a Normal game were massive, like 50+ players, is it feasible to allow three Mafia factions? (No Serial Killer)

I figure if the games are extremely big couldn't proportional exceptions be made? Or have two Mafia factions with lots of members each.

I'd like to see more modifiers that focus only on Mafia vs Mafia play.

[Wake1]

I think it could be possible if you build up slowly to that point over multiple games. You'd have to build an interested party of onlookers within the forum to jump in.

To be fair I don't have much issue getting games filled because I have on multiple occasions sent out mass invites via PM.

I think 60 would be way too big: at some point it just gets too big.

But between 30-40? I think that's a sweet spot. How about three separate Mafia factions in a 40-player Normal game that's been balanced for review?

[Wake1]

At the moment I'm thinking of making a single-ball, balanced game with 40 players and like 7 Mafia members. That, I think, would be neat.

I like Multiball but I think there needs to be more Scum-only modifiers for SvS play.

[Wake1]

Here's an idea for a Normal game.

You know how we have Neighborhoods, right?

How about a NH that lets the Neighbors IN the NH vote to perform a Night Action that only they get to see the results of.

So an Odd-Night Motion-Detector Neighborhood, if ALL Neighbors within it vote to A) perform the ability and B) agree on the target, can then use that Motion Detector ability band get told the result of that action IN that special NH.

That would make an interesting dynamic ESPECIALLY if Neighbors within it don't agree to perform the action OR agree on the target. It would make people wonder and ask why.

That I think would add a nice new addition to Normal games.

Could we please try this?

[Wake1]

factional neighbor actions?

do it in a theme first, mini theme queue’s empty

After that, could it be tested in a Normal game?

I think it would create a wonderful dynamic and a push and pull between Town and Scum in the same Neighborhood.

[Wake1]

I feel like there's way too much resistance in evolving Normal play.

For the NH with a collective Night Action all Neighbors in it would have to agree on doing the action and on the appropriate target. This makes it harder to make these special NHs too powerful, because it'd require a full consensus. And adding 1-2 more to that kind of special NH dilutes its power even more, because it'd require more people to write off on it. I think Cop action attached to a special NH would be way too strong. I was thinking only using much weaker Pars, and even then maybe make it Even/Odd. The Backup mechanic wouldn't apply because the ability is attached solely to the NH. Also if only one Neighbor exists in the NH it can no longer be used. All Neighbors in it would have to vote on both action and target: this is to keep this special NH from being too powerful. If they can't agree on both points then no action happens: this keeps it simple and, in my opinion, more balanced. Get two Neighbors in it that disagree and it just becomes a normal NH in practice. If they can work together and agree then it provides some power, but to Town's or Scum's benefit? Also both Town and Scum within that special NH could try to manipulate the other Neighbors to achieve their own ends.

I was thinking of giving it a weak PR like an Even-Night Motion Detector, or some other weak PR that gives only subtle information (in my opinion a GOOD PR is a weak one that only gives slight info).

[Wake1]

I think Checker, Visitor, and Finder are good additions.

Are there any other super-subtle PRs like that that could be added as Normal?

[Wake1]

Wow are checker and visitor really not normal?

On the Normal Game Wiki it says Checker, Visitor, and Finder are now Normal.

[Wake1]

How about a Modifier/PR that has the role only target 2-3 people, and let's the user know that a person (not if more than 1) did something at Night, but that's all it tells the user.

Kind of like an even more watered-down Motion Detector?

[Wake1]

Target 3 people at Night.

If any of them did something at Night you get a *PING.* That's it.

You won't know who did it, how many, or what was done at Night.

[Wake1]

I feel like a spread-out Reporter is fairly balanced because it gives so little info.

[Wake1]

How about a Modifier where, if a player acts at Night, it leaves a token/marker/whatever on itself.

And then have a PR—or a modifier—that lets you check a player at Night to see if they have any of these tokens/markers on them.

How does that sound?

[Wake1]

How about a Modifier where, if a player acts at Night, it leaves a token/marker/whatever on itself.

And then have a PR—or a modifier—that lets you check a player at Night to see if they have any of these tokens/markers on them.

How does that sound?

Why?

It's very similar to Fruit Vendor.

cool for a theme, not really a normal imo

[Wake1]

well, imo, one of the rules of normal roles is that they shouldn't like, create mechanics that interact between themselves, for instance a fruit vendor by himself is okay, but i wouldn't want a fruit cop that checks if someone has fruits

The fruit of the fruit vendor doesn't do anything.

The token I mentioned earlier just signifies that that player did something.

So if the investigative role checked a person with a token on them, that investigative role would know that at one point they did something.

[Wake1]

I don't think a Neighborhood with a Night Action built into it would be too complex or difficult to understand. It's fairly simple and could be explained in 3-5 sentences.

[Wake1]

OK so what ARE you guys able to allow, because so far all you're doing is shooting ideas down.

[Wake1]

How about a sub-section in the Normal forum for "Almost Normal" games, where variations and concepts could be tested to see how they work? That way it could be an easier way to facilitate evolution of Normal games.

[Wake1]

Anything that facilitates new ideas being implemented and then evaluated in mostly Normal play. Could there be a review of the game by mods/NRG just to get their feedback on how it went and any pros/cons of the tested role?

[Wake1]

Could there be a review of the game by mods/NRG just to get their feedback on how it went and any pros/cons of the tested role?

Smart

Is that sarcasm or genuine?

Can't tell.

[Wake1]

Looking for feedback, all.

If one were to make a single-ball with 34 players, what's the highest number of Mafia members you would include while keeping it balanced?

[Wake1]

For a pure mountainous, [https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 3P:_31_-_2]31 - 2][/url]

I wasn't planning on a mountainous: that would get way too boring.

Thank you for sharing that though.

[Wake1]

In a 34 I was thinking 7:27, and of course add in all that jazz to balance it out.

[Wake1]

Looking for feedback, all.

If one were to make a single-ball with 34 players, what's the highest number of Mafia members you would include while keeping it balanced?

8. for every 4 players in the game past 1, you want 1 to be aligned with the mafia.

5 players = 1 mafia
9 players = 2 mafia
13 players = 3 mafia
17 players = 4 mafia
21 players = 5 mafia
...

33 players = 8 mafia

That's more than I was anticipating. Sounds good to me. I was thinking singleball, 26:8.

Maybe a Mafia Encryptor and a Backup Encryptor. I'm the kind of game mod that would stuff the Normal game with many weak/even-odd PRs, so I'd try to balance it out. Like instead of Even/Odd Cops, break it up with 3 roles. A N1, N4, N7 etc Cop.

I really just want to see a larger group of Scum working together in an epic, drawn-out game. Thinking of making one soon.

At the same time a large theme would be interesting, too.