Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Dunnstral]

Informed: You know (some information about the setup). This information may be related to the setup, or to other players. It must be objective and accurate. For instance, an informed townie (or informed mafia) could be given any of the following:

You know that this setup has 10 town members and 3 mafia members.
You know that there is a rolecop in this game.
You know that there is a mafia rolecop in this game.
You know that (player) is a tracker.
You know that (player) is a town doctor.
You know that (player) is town. NOTE: if something like this is used, it must be non-random what player-slot is referred to. For example, if an informed townie is told that someone is town, it should be part of the setup specification that the player they are told is town is a randomly chosen vanilla townie, rather than a completely randomly chosen town player. Or it should be part of the setup specification that they are told that a specific power role is town.

What are the guidelines for how this stuff flips in a dead role pm?

[Dunnstral]

Informed: You know (some information about the setup). This information may be related to the setup, or to other players. It must be objective and accurate. For instance, an informed townie (or informed mafia) could be given any of the following:

You know that this setup has 10 town members and 3 mafia members.
You know that there is a rolecop in this game.
You know that there is a mafia rolecop in this game.
You know that (player) is a tracker.
You know that (player) is a town doctor.
You know that (player) is town. NOTE: if something like this is used, it must be non-random what player-slot is referred to. For example, if an informed townie is told that someone is town, it should be part of the setup specification that the player they are told is town is a randomly chosen vanilla townie, rather than a completely randomly chosen town player. Or it should be part of the setup specification that they are told that a specific power role is town.

What are the guidelines for how this stuff flips in a dead role pm?

I'd like it if there were guidelines for things like this

Is it normal if an informative role says someone is town and that gets revealed on their death when they didn't know it would reveal beforehand, for instance?

[Dunnstral]

I've never seen the version of vanillizer that permanently roleblocks, I've always seen mods use the version that informs you

[Dunnstral]

i think an interesting role would be something like a town of salem jailor


or just the interrogation part and ability to execute

This gets a downvote from me

[Dunnstral]

I like the current version of motion detector. It's an investigative type role that leaves room for doubt in the results

[Dunnstral]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Beholder

I'd like to see this role renamed to journalist and made normal, and used as a replacement for a doctor in a setup with a cop (among other uses to the role, it would have to be implemented carefully in setups)

Possible variant: Only gets info if the person they're watching dies

[Dunnstral]

I'm not sure what is meant by layers.

Layers of complexity. Added dimensions to the game.

There isn't supposed to be layers of complexity in normal games

In its current iteration, the traitor is just not fun to play.

Well that's your opinion, I think traitor is a fun role to be

I think traitor needs to be reworked again.

I wouldn’t be opposed to Mafia being informed of traitor by default instead of the other way around

I'd be opposed to that, and it doesn't solve any of the problems Pops brought up. I think the role is fine as is, I don't necessarily agree that it's half a scum though - I think it's stronger than that

[Dunnstral]

^That role is very unfun to play against as mafia

[Dunnstral]

I wish I rolled gunsmith vig 1-shot JK backup cop in my normal games

I prefer the idea of inherent multitasking being something the mod puts in the ruleset imo

I like this option the best

[Dunnstral]

It depends on what the role pm says

If it says you get the other guys role, then yeah you're an indecisive whatever

If it says you become a cop if a cop dies, and an indecisive cop dies, then no you're not indecisive

[Dunnstral]

It is normalized, it uses my second example (so you wouldn't become indecisive)

Don't be fooled into thinking the sample roles are optional - pay special attention to the words "standardized Role PM"

[Dunnstral]

My understanding is that Modkills are "standardized" so that becoming a neutral survivor always happens posthumously, which would trigger the backup role (since the role they backed up

has

died, even though they were changed to a different role after death)

I assume most list mods would rule that way, as they need to oversee modkills now. I guess my only problem is that the wiki uses very imprecise wording that conveys a different meaning, and which isn't what happens in practice:

In addition, players who are modkilled as a punishment (i.e. for causing deliberate harm) should have their role

retconned

to Survivor

Actually, there's an argument to be made that with the current wording, if a doctor protected someone on night 2, and they are modkilled day 3, the person they protected now dies, since their being a doctor is now "retconned" and they couldn't have submitted a protective action. Yes, that is what that word means... no, that word shouldn't be there

[Dunnstral]

It sounds like you want to play/run a mini theme game Wake

[Dunnstral]

Rolestopper visits the target so the Fragile player would die, only needs one rolestopper to do so

Edit: The two rolestopper thing doesn't have a "right" answer in itself, but if they both visit the fragile player at least one of them have to go into effect to stop the other, so all that matters is that the fragile player dies. I don't think this problem is specific to the fragile role though

Fragile should be an unavoidable death anyway since otherwise a Doctor would be able to safely target a Fragile role as an effective Visitor.

Doctor only stops one death, which would be the one they caused from visiting the fragile player

And it's fine to work like that, IMO

[Dunnstral]

When you think about it, vanillaizer is just a persistent roleblocker that doesn't affect the mafia kill

[Dunnstral]

What would a scum backup doctor return to a gunsmith?

Normal version

Backup is treated as a modifier to a role, causing the role to be unusable and do nothing until another player with the same role (regardless of alignment) has died.

A backup doctor is a doctor with a modifier that prevents them from taking action until another doctor has died. They wouldn't have a gun, under normal rules.

[Dunnstral]

Note that in the case of an ascetic, they can still be targeted by abilities in a backup state, as their role does nothing. The key difference in the case of the doctor is that "investigate as having no gun" is

not

a passive property of the doctor.

It's a passive property of the gunsmith

, that they investigate doctors as having no gun. The backup role doing nothing does nothing to affect the gunsmith's result, because even though a backup doctor does nothing, it

is

a doctor with a modifier on it, and in normal games gunsmiths get no gun results on doctors.

A quick look at the Gunsmith role tells me that my interpretation is correct:

Normal Guidelines

In Normal games on mafiascum.net, a Gunsmith gets guilties on all Mafia (except Traitors and Doctors), Cops, Vigilantes, Gunsmiths, Role Cops, Vanilla Cops,

Backups of roles with guns

and JoATs that have any of these listed powers.

[Dunnstral]

Mason loses PT access.

What if I argued that the current rules do not make it clear whether masons count as having a neighborhood or a factional pt?

[Dunnstral]

Miller seems like a normal role to me

[Dunnstral]

Fruit

Customer

Connoisseur

[Dunnstral]

Is Moonlight Dancer a town only role, or does it only confirm its own flavor?

[Dunnstral]

In my opinion that should stay in theme games, working with x player having y role should stay part of the normal experience

[Dunnstral]

Looking for feedback, all.

If one were to make a single-ball with 34 players, what's the highest number of Mafia members you would include while keeping it balanced?

8. for every 4 players in the game past 1, you want 1 to be aligned with the mafia.

5 players = 1 mafia
9 players = 2 mafia
13 players = 3 mafia
17 players = 4 mafia
21 players = 5 mafia
...

33 players = 8 mafia

[Dunnstral]

Abductor has more sinister connotations

[Dunnstral]

For player sizes above 12 it is (with usual power) approximately the

square root

of the player size, minus 0.5.

That gives you 4 scum in a 21 person game and 5 scum in a 34 person game

I disagree