Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Gamma Emerald]

My favourite theme games have essentially been Normals with flavour wrapped on.

This makes me smile because I haven't really done much in the way of fancy flavor mechanics in any games yet, and it's nice to know someone enjoys those. I definitely intend to buck that trend sometime though.

[Gamma Emerald]

If people are taking too long for making their own changes to move forward, isn't that their problem and not the NRG's?

in my experiences with game review, all of my delays came because of the reviewers taking too long to come back and check the thread. they also are very nitpicky about things. All of my role PMs have been copied from previously approved role pms yet I get asked to make changes for some reason. My last game took around 5 weeks to be approved and it was nearly identical to a game I had previously ran on another account except I made minor changes. That time frame is completely unacceptable especially since there was a lack of approved games.

we need to replace the current reviewers and bring in new blood. Especially one reviewer who I won't name by name, she approves way to many unbalanced games imo

I agree that reviews stall frequently due to non-presence of reviewers, in all departments. I think we should make it an unspoken rule that reviewers should constantly check threads for reviews they are a part of (once a day minimum)

[Gamma Emerald]

I use Activated Innocent Child for the kind that you activate, and just Innocent Child or D1 Innocent Child for the automatic ones.

D1 Innocent Child is not whitelisted... unfortunately. Only Night Specific modifiers are... not Day Specific.
But Yes Activated Innocent Child would be ok, too.
What do you think about Informed?

I think day modifiers are also included, right? I think I've seen novice dayvig

[Gamma Emerald]

Under current guidelines, we have Activated Innocent Child (triggers on request), and Innocent Child (triggers at the start of D1).

The main weirdness is that you can have an Innocent Child variant that becomes alignment-confirmed at the start of a Night, but not at the start of a Day other than D1.

(Also, Dayvig is not Normal, and IMO should not be Normal. It's a fine role for Themes, but IMO the day should be clearly separate from the night in a Normal.)

I've seen Day X (not 1) IC in some normals

[Gamma Emerald]

I like the stipulation about being the last one alive in a group, makes a town traffic analyst lose power if one mafia remains, I look forward to seeing it in action. Other roles/modifiers are nice but this one excites me

[Gamma Emerald]

Is a traitor that doesn’t know their scum partners normal still?

[Gamma Emerald]

At this point it looks like "jailkeeper" has been transition from a role to a concept

[Gamma Emerald]

That's not what I meant

[Gamma Emerald]

Has there been discussion of including the Personal modifier in the normal whitelist?

[Gamma Emerald]

What?

[Gamma Emerald]

You can just call a role that watches or voyeurs itself a “self-ability/self-targeting ability” role

Also I think Jailor is a weird role because of how in probably most utilizations it would have to pre-determine a target during the day phase, necessitating player mindfulness
Honestly it doesn’t feel like it fits the Normal scope

[Gamma Emerald]

Following Ircher’s response I think another issue with the role is how it creates only a temporary neighborhood, I think that kinda doesn’t fit what Normals aim for

[Gamma Emerald]

P sure Seraph Knight is fixed BG but whatever
Speaking of BG I recall once being told BG is a redirection of a kill onto the user, does that mean it shouldn’t be normal? FYI this is a joke but if we want to get serious about it I don’t mind.

[Gamma Emerald]

Why is the role fun to play?
I don’t get it maybe I don’t see the fun in the role.

This is important btw
Its super important to make sure your game is going to be fun to play.

I get the design elements behind it and the depth it allows for, but if its not a fun role to play, who cares

I played it once and although I was barely in the game long myself it was still fun knowing the picture of the game and trying to utilize it.
Tbh I kinda wanna roll Traitor again some day just to try my hand at it for realsies
Plus there’s trying to indicate your identity to your team. Tbh I think making Traitor recruitable, on top of other things that maybe feel non normal, hurts the idea of scum having to be careful around the traitor
I liked what Boonskiies did in one of his games where iirc he made it so the traitors (cos multiball) had to target their team to get recruited. Obviously this wouldn’t work perfectly with how it is supposed to know their identities but like maybe give the traitor some ability that enable that, like Neighborizer (but prolly make it Novice or something?)
Also I remember that Large Normal you modded with Frogger where the mafia had a cop to find their traitor, I liked that

[Gamma Emerald]

Could Bomb be normalized, perchance?

If NK'd the Bomb also takes out its attacker, which could be neat.

Maybe Paranoid Gun Owner instead to make it not just dangerous for Mafia? Another reactive one-time killing role could be neat.

I like this tbh
maybe a Bomb that has to be turned on to work properly rather than just being a passive role would be more balanced

[Gamma Emerald]

How are you envisioning that working?

Like if that role waa tracked, what would you seem

I'd assume a random target/one player that dies that night

[Gamma Emerald]

I agree Ninja shouldn’t be normal. I was shocked it was when I checked.

why

[Gamma Emerald]

Idk I just feel like if you track X to nowhere in a normal you shouldn’t have to speculate “but what if they’re a ninja?”

That’s for themes.

Untrustworthy results is fine in Normals, other wise Gunsmith wouldn’t be normal
The reason Godfather got canned as I see it is it screwed with how the game was played too much
Ninja doesn’t really do that to the extent GF does. Worst I see is a Watcher seeing someone visit a Ninja’d kill and get a false guilty

And like your given scenario isn’t that significant because Ninja isn’t meant to counter Tracker, it’s meant to counter Watcher. So Tracker should not need to think that hard about it.

[Gamma Emerald]

What do you mean by 328

Instead of having the permitted roles and mechanics outline the principles and expectations of Normal, have the principles and expectations of Normal outline the permitted roles and mechanics.

There's BooneyToonz if you want a bottom-up Normal game.

I completely agree. We need to agree on what, fundamentally, IS the concept of a normal game, and then allow/disallow roles based on their adherence to that concept.

Axe ninja and Miller. They’re not needed and contradict the idea of Normal IMO.

Vanillizer, on the other hand, does not, IMO. At this point in time the “normal” designation seems arbitrary.

Personally, I would also axe multitasking! But that’s more debatable.

P-edit: Yes, it would be powerful. That’s a question of balance, not which roles are normal. Currently, ungated cops are not usually used, and that trend would continue.

Tbh what grounds do you consider vanillaizer normal by
Like I wouldn’t want to be able to lose my role in a Normal, that just doesn’t seem fun at all
That seems like solid reason for it to not be normal

[Gamma Emerald]

Most of those can already be made

Loyalblocker isn't the same thing as Loyal Roleblocker for example.

Here's how I'd define the variant roles:

Loyalblocker - Make a player unable to target players that they don't share an alignment with for the night (effectively making them Loyal for the night, or roleblocking them if they target outside their alignment)
1-shot Ascetic - Immune to non-kill actions the first night they are targeted by a non-kill action.
Strongman as a modifier - A modifier making you ignore roleblocking, protection, rolestopping, and immunities. Does not allow targeting commuting commuters.
Superstar - IC without the innocent part i.e. it doesn't confirm alignment. A variant of this might be publically revealing your role as if you were public role copped.
Follower-Cop - A weakened role cop that gets results in the term of a Follower. (probably a bad name tbh since it sounds like a hybrid role)

pedit: yeah confusing roles like Town 1-shot Weak Loyal Combined Neighborizer Friendly Neighbor isn't really normal and the normalcy part of the reviews should weed that out imo.

I prefer the idea of inherent multitasking being something the mod puts in the ruleset imo

I think Multitasking should go the way of Encryptor where you can have unannounced multitasking through the modifier or have announced multitasking. I especially want this because Multitasking X can be a soft/hard guilty to a Role Cop.

[Gamma Emerald]

Cop is assumed to be trustworthy, and GF changes that in a way that is hard to play around I guess

[Gamma Emerald]

I will hard veto and lobby against any game especially normals to include Vanillalizer as a role. That role is so incredibly unfun to play against as town.

MAFIA vanillaizer sure. Town vanillaizer can be interesting (though I still firmly believe it to be not-normal).

[Gamma Emerald]

What Town roles would wear a suit btw
I like the idea but imo it has very limited unique utility

[Gamma Emerald]

Alright, so Cops would pretty clearly like donuts, what about some other roles?

[Gamma Emerald]

Says the guy lobbying for Normalized Vanillaizer

[Gamma Emerald]

Says the guy lobbying for Normalized Vanillaizer

A vanillaizer is a long standing role that everyone is familiar with.

These new variants change how we think about the game and would have people needing to look them up, so they’re not normal. Totally viable roles though.

Wasn't Gunsmith like that when it was introduced?
And "long standing" + "familiar" doesn't make it fair at all.

[Gamma Emerald]

Pretty sure the “can’t target the same person twice” modifier is called Hideous.

[Gamma Emerald]

Would activated miller be normal, even? I recall getting voted out a game for claiming that at one point.

[Gamma Emerald]

Except it changes how you investigate to cops temporarily. Firstly, that doesn’t seem useful ever, and secondly, it kinda bends the role changing rules.

[Gamma Emerald]

I don’t have a problem with either modifier/role on their own, but the combination is concerning

[Gamma Emerald]

But it’s not really harmless imo

[Gamma Emerald]

Why make the role then

[Gamma Emerald]

Question:

Would forcing a player to take an action (via a power role capable of doing so) when they otherwise wouldn't take an action be a normal role?

Only problem imo is the fact if the target doesn’t submit an action it gets randomized

[Gamma Emerald]

Also I think finder wouldn’t differentiate between VT and goon, like Rolecop does

[Gamma Emerald]

A couple possibilities:

It can be a weaker... Neapolitan-ish thing if you have something that's obviously going to be a town role, or will be after some of the setup is revealed. Doesn't confirm all the VTs, just one PR (maybe something you have a few of)

It can function like a Scum Rolecop/Neap/Vanilla Cop/whatever where you want to give scum the ability to target a particular part of the town. Like Scum PT Cop hunting Masons, but for other things. Those roles have some use when you want to give scum just a some specific counterplay. e.g. Doctor-Finder

Finally, it can be used as a way to hint about the nature of the setup without giving an Informed role.

maybe give scum a doctor finder in a setup with a doc+cop combo
it's provides a counter to follow the cop without being a full rolecop

[Gamma Emerald]

I really do think it should either be standardized site-wide or spelled out by the mod in the rules
The issue imo is not knowing

[Gamma Emerald]

sure
basically how the rules are for replacing into a slot you previously replaced out of.

[Gamma Emerald]

Would Superstar announce the full role, or just the Superstar portion?
Besides that question, I have no qualms with TL’s ideas that aren’t already addressed by the normal guidelines

[Gamma Emerald]

Bodyguard’s redirect is hardly recognized as one by the general populace IMO

[Gamma Emerald]

Yeah that’s what I kinda guessed, since just the Superstar portion would be rather pointless

[Gamma Emerald]

I think modifier cop would be interesting, if niche

[Gamma Emerald]

Weak’s usage is “dies if it targets scum” not “dies to an alignment the same/different to itself”
I’d suggest Desperate for a “Disloyal Weak” modifier

[Gamma Emerald]

X-Shot Townie should not be allowed since in Great Idea it just becomes a Survivor after all the "shots" are expired

[Gamma Emerald]

Combined Cop would technically be correct but also is wrong - You're meant to put at least two things in a Combined container but it's not like you're going to crash the game if Combined has 1 or 0 things in it.

well, a Mafia combined cop would be forced to have the same target for a Factional Kill and Cop action right?

This would be interesting with a Bulletproof Traitor actually

[Gamma Emerald]

I'll argue that a red herring is not a moderator lie: there's nothing about a Cop Enabler that informs you that Cops exist in the setup.

Enablers/Backups/[role]-Finders without their associated role existing in the setup is a red herring - it is designed to lead to a false conclusion (that the associated role exists) but there's nothing that actually states the conclusion is true.

It gets even more unusual when you consider the Backup/same Backup interaction - I assume one of the Backups dying in that scenario activates the other, otherwise there's no point to having two Backups unless the non-Backup version of the role exists. (note: this gets really weird with two Backup Bulletproof roles - I'd have to resolve in that case simultaneously NKing both will result in both dying as neither have time to back up)

I have seen a double backup scenario, the function was that both triggered at the same time

[Gamma Emerald]

miller functions as a rolecop inno
so unless neither cop nor rolecop are in the setup, miller is not a red herring

[Gamma Emerald]

Perhaps Asceticizer (Rolestopper that doesn't stop kills) could be Normalized?

You got Personal.

yeah but you still have Vigilante.

Personal Vaporizer would stop Vigilantes but not the factional kill
That’s what I’m guessing the concern is

[Gamma Emerald]

Imo it’s probably criminally OVERutilized

[Gamma Emerald]

You also haven’t played in a while lol

[Gamma Emerald]

What third parties would you see being potentially normalized?

[Gamma Emerald]

I mean, just like mafia and ww are interchangable groupscum flavors, you could have interchangable 3p flavors

[Gamma Emerald]

I’d suggest creating a new role name for that idea, probably Councilor

[Gamma Emerald]

Checker is, idr if visitor is

[Gamma Emerald]

The OP is pretty out of date though -_-

[Gamma Emerald]

Tbh inspector seems marginally useful at best

[Gamma Emerald]

PGO doesn't activate either
it's literally just another way of saying reflexive vigilante
and iirc reflexive isn't a normal modifier

[Gamma Emerald]

I remember being told it was too intricate or something once

[Gamma Emerald]

Booneytoonz exists you guys >:(

[Gamma Emerald]

I’ve had a game in the works for like a year that kinda has hit every snag in the books but I intend to run it as a Booneytoonz entry once I get it in shape

[Gamma Emerald]

How about a sub-section in the Normal forum for "Almost Normal" games, where variations and concepts could be tested to see how they work? That way it could be an easier way to facilitate evolution of Normal games.

sounds like putting the graylist into place but with extra steps lol

personally i'd be fine with it, although maybe splitting up the normal queue isn't the best idea, a rotation could be better?

Maybe what you do is you have a group of trusted mods on file that can run Almost Normal games, iirc the newbie queue has a list of moderators who are basically trusted to handle those games well. And what you do is just sorta run an Almost Normal setup periodically, maybe like once every 3 months
Also I have some ideas I’ve been kicking around but they’re kinda being reserved for one setup in particular I’ve been working on for about a year off and on

[Gamma Emerald]

Neighbors are the mutation of Masons iirc

[Gamma Emerald]

I don’t think the Alien faction would be permitted in a normal game because of the different factional kill rules. Also the fact that Aliens tend to by nature have bastardly and non-normal powers.

[Gamma Emerald]

Some of those have appeared during the grey list era as grey list roles, notably the one-guilty cop

[Gamma Emerald]

Announcing a role exists at the start is allowed without need for a specific role

[Gamma Emerald]

I had mostly vigilante in mind to prevent him from claiming before he shoots.

I was about to mention this
because there was a theme game I played recently where I was paranoid of a vig being around and had to basically contort night actions in a way to handle that + multiple other real threats
so being able to kill the vig and negate the shot at the same time would have been neat

[Gamma Emerald]

If that gets combined with reverse-weak on a vigilante you can make a desperado fwiw

[Gamma Emerald]

The wiki page seems to intend for Gutless Doctor to be mostly functional, which seems like a “have your cake and eat it too” attempt, since the wording of the role’s functionality doesn’t allow for that.

[Gamma Emerald]

From my experience if there’s a Tracker and two Backup Trackers the ruling seems to be the Tracker dying activates both backups

[Gamma Emerald]

I think if that’s the argument you’re making, interactions that were previously allowed, like Backup Cop being able to use a Cop action when it was a Vanilla Cop that died (I distinctly recall an interaction like this in a game a while back), should be illegal.

[Gamma Emerald]

Scum Babysitter has to die for that kill to work. Depending on role interaction, it might be a way to bypass certain protections tho

[Gamma Emerald]

oh yeah, x-result would be very good as a x-shot that gets refunded shots if it's blocked
tbh I think it should just be whitelisted?

[Gamma Emerald]

No it’s more like Weak Hider that only works on someone doing a kill

[Gamma Emerald]

That’s imprecise wording, that suggests it dies on anyone that would return a guilty to a Detective

[Gamma Emerald]

btw since you posted an update here, can we get a cleanup of the New york subforum?

[Gamma Emerald]

I still think follower/voyeur seeing specific actions would be a substantial power boost that idk if they entirely need
Notably: voyeur seeing a bodyguard action specifically gives a lot of info if a bodyguard dies.