Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[TemporalLich]

Angel isn't a normal role at least in this dimension

[TemporalLich]

The current version of Motion Detector strikes me as more flavorful imo.

The role that is to a Watcher what a Reporter is to a Tracker should be called an Inspector or something like that.

Flavor is based on seeing if the target has been "tampered with".

Basically how I'd do the action investigators that can see neither who did it nor what kind of action it was:

Motion Detector - Gets a positive result if it sees that the target has acted or if the target has been acted upon. Can't tell the difference between the two.
Reporter - Gets a positive result if it sees that the target has acted.
Inspector - Gets a positive result if it sees that the target has been acted upon.
Combined Reporter Inspector - The name for a motion detector that can tell the difference.

[TemporalLich]

Is it possible to add any Normal roles that can affect votes?

Like a role that can either null a vote or force someone who isn't voting to vote?

There are multiple reasons a vote alterer isn't Normal.

1. Day roles aren't Normal.
2. It isn't clear on whether vote alterers take effect immediately or when the next VC is posted.
3. Either resolution to reason 2 would result in a bastard role, either for introducing uncertainty where your vote is (and by potentially making the votes lie), or by

allowing direct moderator influence

4. Voting roles in general affect how lynching takes place, and having to worry about someone being a doublevoter or governor and ruining a plan to L-1 with intent is not normal.

[TemporalLich]

Action Detector would be a good name for a combined reporter inspector, yeah. (and it makes it more clear that the reporter part doesn't undermine the inspector part)

[TemporalLich]

Vanillaizer is probably the one role I'd unblacklist but it's very hard to justify it being fit for Normal because even though it's a weaker way to completely hose a PR than a Vigilante it involves a role change (assuming it's the Vanillaizer that informs the target their role was changed and flips like "

Named Townie

turned

Vanilla Townie

"). (named townie isn't normal but named with the allowed names being Named or Chocolate might be worth considering).

And the alternate forme, Seraph Rogue (fixed roleblocker), would have a very hard time being normalized since Seraph Knight (fixed doctor) isn't normal.

It would be best considered for unblacklisting when we inevitably get the greylist back, though I want Lynchproof (and by extension Deathproof) blacklisted since the lynch is supposed to be normal in a normal.

I highly doubt Vanillaizer will be considered Normal even in a greylist world though, mostly because role changes are not normal.

[TemporalLich]

P sure Seraph Knight is fixed BG but whatever
Speaking of BG I recall once being told BG is a redirection of a kill onto the user, does that mean it shouldn’t be normal? FYI this is a joke but if we want to get serious about it I don’t mind.

If someone shot the person the Seraph Knight is protecting the Seraph Knight doesn't die, so Seraph Knight is a fixed doctor, not a fixed bodyguard.

[TemporalLich]

Multiball is allowed in Large Normals afaik

I think Mafia Traitor (and Werewolf Traitor for those multiball large normals) are a good way to put in "half a scum". It's probably the best as is, since:

Removing the endgame rule results in weird endgames involving a Mafia Traitor and two town-aligned roles for example.

Making the scum know the Traitor's identity inherently removes design space as you can just make all the scum Informed (knows who the Traitor is).

Banning Traitor removes design space and makes it harder to balance weird game sizes.

[TemporalLich]

here's my bizarre way of making traitor that doesn't die to endgame and doesn't have a potential to lead to effective nightless games:

Mafia Traitor gains the Mafia factional nightkill if it is the only Mafia-aligned player alive.

[TemporalLich]

I just think Normal needs to be designed with a top-down approach instead of a bottom-up approach.

[TemporalLich]

What do you mean by 328

Instead of having the permitted roles and mechanics outline the principles and expectations of Normal, have the principles and expectations of Normal outline the permitted roles and mechanics.

There's BooneyToonz if you want a bottom-up Normal game.

[TemporalLich]

I only agree with blacklisting Ninja if Miller gets blacklisted as well, since the principle changes from "Moderators shall not lie except in results." to "Moderators shall never lie about game info".

I know this makes Cop broken in Normals, but balance is secondary to principles outlining Normalcy if we're going with a top-down Normal. (unless of course Balance is put first which is very reasonable for a top-down Normal)

[TemporalLich]

oh yeah. Ungated Cop might still be very powerful without a miller.

[TemporalLich]

Ideally balance concerns as it concerns a setup should be reserved for review.

I really don't agree with axing Multitasking unless you want Normal to be synonymous with boring. If so, Combined should go as well (as it isn't clear if it counts as 1 or 2 actions).

[TemporalLich]

actually I think greylist should come back to encompass multitasking and the like. (and consider whether inherent multitasking should be a normal mechanic or not, I'm eh)

I really wish Greylist were normal again, I could think of a lot of interesting variants such as Loyalblocker, 1-shot Ascetic, Strongman as a modifier, Superstar, and Follower-Cop. It's the spice on top of the normal cake, I'd be okay with hybrid/multitasking/combined roles going in favor of restoring the greylist.

pedit: Combined allows you to use multiple role abilities, however you must use both abilities on one target.

[TemporalLich]

Most of those can already be made

Loyalblocker isn't the same thing as Loyal Roleblocker for example.

Here's how I'd define the variant roles:

Loyalblocker - Make a player unable to target players that they don't share an alignment with for the night (effectively making them Loyal for the night, or roleblocking them if they target outside their alignment)
1-shot Ascetic - Immune to non-kill actions the first night they are targeted by a non-kill action.
Strongman as a modifier - A modifier making you ignore roleblocking, protection, rolestopping, and immunities. Does not allow targeting commuting commuters.
Superstar - IC without the innocent part i.e. it doesn't confirm alignment. A variant of this might be publically revealing your role as if you were public role copped.
Follower-Cop - A weakened role cop that gets results in the term of a Follower. (probably a bad name tbh since it sounds like a hybrid role)

pedit: yeah confusing roles like Town 1-shot Weak Loyal Combined Neighborizer Friendly Neighbor isn't really normal and the normalcy part of the reviews should weed that out imo.

I prefer the idea of inherent multitasking being something the mod puts in the ruleset imo

[TemporalLich]

Personal should be whitelisted imo

Backup to me doesn't inherit modifiers e.g. if a 1-shot Cop dies, a Backup Cop just becomes an ungated Cop.

[TemporalLich]

yeah, if anything "Suicide" (dies if it uses an ability) might be a worthy modifier in one world.

[TemporalLich]

I'm not sure whether it is more normal for a mutual rolestop to result in the target being rolestopped or not... If the former is true a mutual rolestop should kill a Fragile target.

Bulletproof Fragile would be immune to kill actions (except Strongman) but die from non-kill actions. Fragile should be an unavoidable death anyway since otherwise a Doctor would be able to safely target a Fragile role as an effective Visitor.

[TemporalLich]

IMO the most sensible resolution to the double rolestop is that the rolestoppers rolestop each other and other actions go through (RAR produces this result, it's a bit less clear under NAR). In that situation, it seems strange for the rolestopped action to trigger the Fragile (unless you think that roleblocked actions would).

I don't know RAR but two jailkeepers absolutely should not be able to doctrain.

And I agree two rolestoppers should end up causing each other to fail in a mutual rolestop, therefore Fragile should live in a mutual rolestop assuming no other actions.

[TemporalLich]

yeah, I think the main problem would be determining if Personal is viable on these roles:

Gunsmith, Detective, Psychologist (which have investigations relying on the factional kill but are role investigators and not action investigators)

Traffic Analyst, PT Cop (which have investigations relying on the factional PT instead of the factional kill)

Encryptor (which has potential to affect a factional PT)

imo these should be viable for a Personal modifier, like this:

Personal Gunsmith gets a "no gun" result on a Mafia Goon but a "gun" result on a Role Cop regardless of alignment.
Personal Detective and Personal Psychologist gets negative results on Mafia Goons and Serial Killers regardless of whether they have killed or not.
Personal Traffic Analyst and Personal PT Cop can't see a Mafia PT and thus both get negative results on a Mafia Goon.
A Mafia Neighbor Personal Encryptor grants daytalk to the neighborhood but not the Mafia PT.

Personal being whitelisted would make me less likely to agree with Ninja being removed btw (since Personal interferes with an action investigator in such a way that it gives a false negative, but at least in the case of Personal it was spelled out in the Personal action investigator's Role PM).

[TemporalLich]

yeah I want inherent multitasking (as in in the mod's ruleset) to be Normal again

[TemporalLich]

vanillaizer is a very strong scum role and a pretty weak town role

It's almost as strong as giving scum a vigilante, but town might see it as negative utility.

[TemporalLich]

Yeah I guess.

Vigilante is only normal for Town though, so Vanillaizer might be only normal for Town if balancing is an issue.

[TemporalLich]

I don't think Town Vanillaizer would be too much to ask for but it does technically violate an expectation of Normal (Roles should never change), but Backup (technically not if you consider it a modifier and not part of a role) and UBackup (no excuse there) also violate that expectation.

I really think we need to outline the expectations of Normal and then decide if Town Vanillaizer is normal or not.

[TemporalLich]

In that case Vanillaizer shouldn't be Normal based on that alone, that indicates it would alter Normal expectations a lot and make Normal feel very different (similar to the reason Supersaint isn't normal).

Normal games should feel like Normal games. Having to worry about uncommon roles that place a lot of undue influence on a Normal just by possibly existing is not Normal.

[TemporalLich]

I kinda do want the "neighborhood cop" and the modifier.

Considering the modifier is a weaker version of Loud/Announcing, I think Noticeable is a good name for it.

[TemporalLich]

Would a modifier where you could only target any given player once per game be useful?

personally I like that modifier, I wouldn't know what to call it.

Maybe Overconfident might work, as they're sure their ability worked fine and that they don't need to try again? Though an Overconfident investigative role might be confusing flavor-wise.

[TemporalLich]

Will

Alignment Cop

(investigates to learn the

exact

alignment of a player) ever be a Normal role?

[TemporalLich]

yeah its called a Cop.

Cop gets Town/Not Town (and can be fooled by a Miller), Alignment Cop gets Town/Mafia/Werewolf/Serial Killer (and can't be fooled by a Miller)

[TemporalLich]

A. Implo most likely will not want to have a role that nullifies the Miller. He doesn't want Godfathers in queue but wants Millers and he talked about why somewhere in this thread.
B. I'm pretty sure in normal games Cops get Town or Mafia and that only comes up in Multiball games but even then I still think its Town or Mafia but not 100% on this.

I ISOed implosion and found out Miller is allowed because Miller can claim Miller and it wouldn't detract from Cop being a reliable investigative.

Since an Alignment Cop can suss out the difference between a Miller claiming Miller and a scum claiming Miller it might be distinct enough to be worth considering outside the daydream of the greylist coming back, as non-Large normals must be standard alignment.

Alignment Cop being a perfect investigative is obviously very powerful though, so I feel balancing might be the reason Alignment Cop isn't normal.

The wiki tells me Cop is Town/Not Town

[TemporalLich]

If Miller were gone Alignment Cop would definitely be too similar for people to want it outside the greylist though.

[TemporalLich]

Normal queue role names convey what the role actually does in a way that minimizes flavor and aesthetics and maximizes understanding. Even to the point of roles having names like rolecop and pt cop. Tagger is more aesthetically pleasing but Fruit Customer borrows terminology from a similar role to grant understanding, similar to babysitter/hider.
I don't think redirection is allowed in normal queue right now but if that was a factor at play it'd be preferable not put the target's name in the result PM if detecting redirection isn't the point of the role.

I'd say the target's name should be in the Tagger's results because Tagger is an investigative role (namely, the null investigative role) and redirection should

never

act like a pseudo-Tailor in Normal games.

Though if you get a No Result, those likely will be generic.

That being said I don't think redirection is Normal regardless of investigative role concerns, namely because it means your target may not be your target and it can result in strange Night Action choices.

[TemporalLich]

Tagger is the null investigative because it gets an investigation result that says nothing beyond it being an investigation result.

You'd know whether you succeed or fail, but not much more.

[TemporalLich]

I think

Checker

would both mean that and also indicate it is a simple investigative (the simplest possible role investigative - the null investigative).

[TemporalLich]

Also note the null investigative can be quite an interesting role when modified... a Town Loyal null investigative is basically a discount Cop who can't tell the difference between a guilty and a No Result.

[TemporalLich]

Thanks for the update.

1. Is a Role Tracker (target a player, if they successfully act and aren't a Ninja you will learn their role, if not you will be told you didn't see anything, if your action fails you will get No Result) not a thing?

2. Is a Finder-Finder a possible role? If so, does it get a positive result on say a Combined-Finder?

[TemporalLich]

Another question about the minutiae of the Finder role... I assume a Neighbor-Finder gets a negative result on a Neighbor Enabler and someone added to a neighborhood by a Neighborizer, as neither have the Neighbor ability written in their roles.

[TemporalLich]

Will "Superstar" (can have the mod confirm that they are a Superstar, basically an IC without the I) ever be a Normal role?

I mean it probably doesn't have much use besides being impossible to fakeclaim, but it's another "null" role to consider adding.

[TemporalLich]

actually yeah, good point CfJ... if it's enough of an interesting role (to make claims a little more interesting) it's alright, if not then it's pretty much a Named role with a mod reveal.

[TemporalLich]

shouldn't that just be called a Role Guesser, as you try to guess the person's role and get a result telling you if you're correct or not?

I mean it could also be used as a Vanilla Cop if you're allowed to guess Vanilla.

[TemporalLich]

I'm pretty sure a Vanilla-Finder is a Vanilla Cop by another name

[TemporalLich]

A PT Cop is a minor variation on a Traffic Analyst - both are binary investigatives that concern private communication (PT Cop gets In a PT/Not in a PT, Traffic Analyst gets Can Communicate Privately/Can't Communicate Privately)

Logically speaking if Gunsmiths get positive results on PT Cops mechanics-wise they should get positive results on Traffic Analysts as well.

[TemporalLich]

you really can just call it a PT analyst... why isn't it called a PT analyst?

[TemporalLich]

I feel like multiball / serial killer change the game's expectations a lot and should probably be something that is declared on signups (standard alignment, multiball, serial killer, or multiball with serial killer)

bear in mind I'd usually consider something that changes the game's expectations a lot not Normal but I think Normal Multiball is a valid type of game.

[TemporalLich]

A no-lim in a 4p MeLo (which the 50% issue matters the most - as it is even and low) would require a bad Vigilante shot to result in the game ending in Night.

Scum Vigilante isn't normal, so this would usually be the result of the Town Vig being overconfident.

A no-lim in a 4p Dilemma (possible in a Large game) usually will end in Night, allowing 50% to no-lim would allow both Townies to no-lim without needing one of the scum to agree.

[TemporalLich]

Roles I'd personally want to see discussed for Normality:

Reporter

(checks if someone acted or not),

Inspector

(checks if someone was targeted or not),

Superstar

(allows your role (as a Role Cop sees it) to be revealed),

Strongman as a modifier

(makes an action unblockable),

Modifier Cop

(learns what modifiers apply to someone),

[modifier]-Finder

([role]-Finder with a modifier e.g. 1-shot-Finder or Loyal-Finder),

Security Guard

(lets someone know who targeted them besides you - basically a reverse Watcher),

Visionary

(lets someone know what targeted them besides you - basically a reverse Voyeur).

Alternate role names I want to see discussed:

Mailman >

Messenger

Strongman >

Juggernaut

Probably won't be normal but I can wish:

Moonlight Dancer

(can reveal that they are a Moonlight Dancer once every phase)

Interceptor

(redirects someone's actions to you)

Paladin

(redirects actions targeting someone to you)

[TemporalLich]

I doubt that redirection of any kind will ever be normal.

Bodyguard is a redirection role.

In fact, it's very close to a

Paladin

if it were limited to affecting kills (Bodyguard can't protect from a multikill, while a kill-specific Paladin still could).

I want to add one more role to the discussion, a

Shield

that is to the Interceptor as a Bodyguard is to a Paladin. That is, the

Shield

can target someone performing a kill to take the kill instead of the target.

[TemporalLich]

Would Superstar announce the full role, or just the Superstar portion?
Besides that question, I have no qualms with TL’s ideas that aren’t already addressed by the normal guidelines

Superstar announces the entire role, it can also be seen as a role modifier to make an attached role able to be revealed publically.

A Superstar Cop can mod confirm themselves to be a Cop (but not necessarily Town).

[TemporalLich]

Modifier Cop might be a bit too meta-gamey for a Normal, though [modifier]-Finder just feels like a natural extension to [role]-Finder.

[TemporalLich]

well the Bodyguard variants I have from least to most tenuous are these:

VIP

- A reverse Bodyguard, redirects a kill targeting you to your target. If Bodyguard does not redirect, best described as "You will attempt to kill your target if targeted by a kill, and you will protect yourself from a single kill."

Shield

- The flip side of a Bodyguard, allows you to intercept a kill, redirecting a kill action from the performer to you. If Bodyguard does not redirect, best described as a kill roleblocker that dies if it blocks a kill.

Paladin

- A generalized Bodyguard, redirects all abilities targeting your target to you. Absolutely requires redirection to work properly.

Shield is easiest to describe without using redirection, no redirection VIP is best explained with a cop-out "Your target becomes a Bodyguard targeting you that Night", and Paladin is impossible to describe without redirection.

And tbh I'd actually prefer

Strong-Willed

being Normal for the Strongman as modifier but Strong-Willed mentions redirection.

and the wiki page for Bodyguard mentions it is a redirection role with nothing to the contrary: "The only benefit from a successful protection is essentially a

redirection

of the kill from someone who is presumably more valuable to keep alive."

and I put Moonlight Dancer as probably not Normal as it's a reusable Any Time action (and with how I'd resolve an Any Time action it resolves instantly even in the Night), something that has never been Normal.

And yeah Regretful is a modifier but it doesn't allow for making a non-redirecting bodyguard in it's current wording as it requires the target to actually die.

[TemporalLich]

I've made wiki articles on these role proposals: Inspector, Security Guard, Visionary, Role Guard, Shield, VIP

Reporter was edited to have the proposal as the standard version, and Superstar already existed.

Role Guard is the Role Watcher version of the Security Guard and Visionary.

[TemporalLich]

A Backup Traitor would be a very odd role to add to a game but it would be theoretically possible - if a Traitor dies a Backup Traitor loses access to the Mafia kill and the Mafia PT

[TemporalLich]

Does a Traitor Vigilante surrender if the main contingent dies?

A Traitor is endgamed if all other (presumably all non-Traitor) Mafia are dead. Also Mafia Vigilante isn't Normal.

The same would apply to a Backup Traitor if a Traitor is dead. (if a Traitor isn't dead a Backup Traitor isn't a Traitor yet)

[TemporalLich]

Where I think my role proposals go on the "NAR ladder":

IC Land - Superstar, Moonlight Dancer
Blocking - Shield
Kill - VIP
Role Investigation - Modifier Cop, [modifier]-Finder
Action Investigation - Reporter, Inspector, Security Guard, Visionary, Role Guard

---

Backup Traitor would have to be treated as a non-Traitor for the purposes of role PMs - the Traitor-notifying ability never gets a chance to fire as a Backup Traitor is not a Traitor in the setup phase. It still could work as expected for the other abilities: Backup Traitors when a Traitor dies would lose access to the scum PT, not be able to send in factional nightkills at all, and get endgamed if an "active" Backup Traitor is the only scum left.

A Backup Traitor would immediately know if they are a red herring or not because of the Traitor-notifying ability of the regular Traitor though.

My intuition would say that a Backup Traitor would not have a gun (unless it was like a Backup Traitor with a Cop ability or something).

[TemporalLich]

Vain isn't normal but I feel like it should be.

I would prefer having Weak and Vain instead of LoyalWeak and DisloyalWeak

[TemporalLich]

Is Moonlight Dancer a town only role, or does it only confirm its own flavor?

Moonlight Dancer is a null IC, it only confirms its own flavor... an Innocent Child is a town only role that confirms they are Town, and Innocent Child is already Normal.

[TemporalLich]

I can't conceive of a normal setup in which Moonlight Dancer is a useful role that couldn't equally be filled by some other role.

yeah, it's similar to Named, though Moonlight Dancer can confirm themselves as such.

I don't think Moonlight Dancer is likely to be Normal unless Named becomes Normal.

also, setup WIFOM is very likely the reason Moonlight Dancer gets added.

[TemporalLich]

isn't moonlight dancer just a superstar?

can you even attach modifiers to roles that have no powers (e.g. vanillas)?

Nope, Moonlight Dancer gives no clues to its role, Superstar (with no other roles) on the other hand can reveal as being effectively Vanilla.

[TemporalLich]

Novice Macho Townie would parse correctly - they can be protected from kills on Night 1 but not after that.

Loyal Innocent Child would be needlessly applying a modifier at best if you consider Innocent Child to self-target. On the same note, Disloyal Innocent Child would be a red herring. The Normal design space for (Dis)Loyal requires a targeted ability (merely asking for an active ability means Loyal Activated passive role is Normal), though in Themes there's nothing stopping you from having a Disloyal Ascetic or Loyal Bulletproof.

3-shot Vengeful would be a pointless modifier and I'd question if you meant to use Day 1-3 instead, though Day-specific is technically not Normal.

Combined Cop would technically be correct but also is wrong - You're meant to put at least two things in a Combined container but it's not like you're going to crash the game if Combined has 1 or 0 things in it.

Combined Even-Night Cop Odd-Night Doctor would be a red flag saying "the setup designer likely meant Even-Night Cop Odd-Night Doctor" as the two combined abilities have scheduling restrictions that

never coincide

. Combined Odd-Night Cop Novice Role Cop would parse correctly, and would be a lot cleaner than "Night 1 Cop Even-Night Role Cop Novice Odd-Night Combined Cop Role Cop" which is what you seem to want people to use.

A Combined role that looks like "Combined Fruit Vendor Non-Consecutive Doctor" would be the hardest to parse of combined roles with mismatched targeting limiters. But it still can be parsed in my mind, if the role acted on both N1 and N2 the Doctor would not work on N2.

Serial Killer Enabler would be like having a Goon Enabler. I am pretty sure messing with a factional kill like that is not Normal.

Joat makes the most sense with active abilities and the wiki page for Joat should be updated so that a Joat (BP, Doc) isn't Normal. 1s BP 1s Doc will mean the same thing as Joat (BP, Doc) though. "BP Doc" in a Joat would have to be Combined Doctor Activated Bulletproof, it wouldn't make much sense even if Joat (BP, Doc) did.

and yeah unusual combinations like Neighbor Enabler (this one did actually appear in a Normal game) should be decided by reviewer fiat - it might be Normal one game and Themey the next.

[TemporalLich]

2-Shot Townie would be an example of a red herring modifier - do you really think "Twice in the game during night, you have no special abilities." makes sense?

I can't tell if that would crash or not. I'm not a programmer. But you're basically adding a Named Townie and Named isn't Normal.

[TemporalLich]

Combined Cop would technically be correct but also is wrong - You're meant to put at least two things in a Combined container but it's not like you're going to crash the game if Combined has 1 or 0 things in it.

well, a Mafia combined cop would be forced to have the same target for a Factional Kill and Cop action right?

I am not sure if that is possible, even if it is I'd insist on calling it a "Mafia Combined Goon Cop" to make it clear you're combining the factional kill.

It would be the Mafia equivalent of a Town Combined Vigilante Cop.

The problem with that is then, could such a Mafioso perform the factional kill normally? What about a Mafia 1-shot Combined Goon Cop?

[TemporalLich]

Is detective normal for town only or normal for both? The page for detective and the normal game page says 2 different things. I would assume town only because there's no point if it were for mafia except as a red herring.

I would assume scum detective is Normal.

Scum detective can find Vigilantes, the other scum in a multiball, and Serial Killers (assuming they have attempted to kill a player).

[TemporalLich]

Normal Roles that are listed as modifiers in Normal Game but I think should actually be defined as roles as they can stand alone:

Bulletproof - A passive role that protects you from kills targeting you (kill immunity).
Ascetic - A passive role that protects you from non kill actions targeting you (non-kill action immunity).
Macho - A passive role that protects you from kill protection (kill protection immunity). In my mind the Rolestopper+Macho interaction leads to the Macho player being protected from non kill actions.
Enabler - A derived role in the same vein as Finder. A Cop Enabler is not a Cop, just like how a Cop-Finder is not a Cop. However, Town Enabler and Town -Finder are malformed roles missing the role.

Note that I consider Strongman and Ninja modifiers, they cannot stand on their own (if they do, they are considered to

modify

the factional kill).

[TemporalLich]

Is there a difference between those being roles and being a modifier for a vanilla townie?

Vanilla Cops.

Bulletproof Townie is not Vanilla.

Role Cops don't get Vanilla on a Bulletproof Townie, so neither should Vanilla Cops.

[TemporalLich]

Concept: Roles that implicitly lie to the players (eg. A Jailkeeper-finder when there is no Jailkeeper, which is functionally a Named Visitor) should not be allowed in Normal Games.

A Jailkeeper-finder without a Jailkeeper in the setup is actually functionally a Checker, they get investigative results and a No Result can happen.

Regardless, this "no red herring" rule effectively makes Backups, Enablers, and [role]-Finders pseudo-Informed (actually stronger than Informed as the info appears in the flip!).

[TemporalLich]

A red herring Enabler or Backup is effectively a Named role - a red herring with a town-only role is effectively a role that tells Role Cops they are Town.

A red herring Finder is still a Checker with a name.

Red herrings are more setup WIFOMy than Named roles imo, though red herrings do serve to reduce the power of Enablers/Backups/Finders so they aren't informed that shows in flips.

I think red herrings are fine - red herrings

can

be reasonably anticipated and the alternative is granting derived roles an unintended and hidden ability.

[TemporalLich]

I'll argue that a red herring is not a moderator lie: there's nothing about a Cop Enabler that informs you that Cops exist in the setup.

Enablers/Backups/[role]-Finders without their associated role existing in the setup is a red herring - it is designed to lead to a false conclusion (that the associated role exists) but there's nothing that actually states the conclusion is true.

It gets even more unusual when you consider the Backup/same Backup interaction - I assume one of the Backups dying in that scenario activates the other, otherwise there's no point to having two Backups unless the non-Backup version of the role exists. (note: this gets really weird with two Backup Bulletproof roles - I'd have to resolve in that case simultaneously NKing both will result in both dying as neither have time to back up)

[TemporalLich]

It's not as explicit of a lie of an informed being told theire is a cop when none exists, but it is still implicitly a lie.
If you wanted red herrings, then you would include redirectors and bus drivers. Technically the moderator isn't lying when they say you got a redcheck on player A when in reality you were redirected to player B and got a redcheck on them, but the moderator is still implicitly lying to you.

Red herrings are still a form of deception, and I still would consider it reasonably anticipated (there's really nothing that says your derived role is not a red herring, and it's Normal anyway so it's reasonable to anticipate if it can happen in Normal Games). It's not an outright lie, but if it were it would be bastard (False Informed is not reasonable to anticipate).

I actually consider investigations that have incorrect

targets

to be bastard (a moderator lie that cannot be reasonably anticipated). In Normals your target is your target as redirection is categorically not Normal, though in Themes it will be relevant. If you got a red check on Player A but in reality you were redirectd to Player B the moderator is

explicitly

lying to you. Even if that, you'd have to justify why you think Framer, Lawyer, and Tailor should be Normal, because if you're allowing "apparent target" investigations and redirection you also need to justify why Framer, Lawyer, Tailor, and Godfather are normal. I don't think "apparent target" investigations and redirection should be Normal if the more Normal and effectively possible Framer, Lawyer, Tailor, and Godfather are not Normal.

[TemporalLich]

About that role, Isis said (and I quote), "It's the kind of red herring that's never harmful."

Hopefully she'll agree with me that that's clearly wrong.

yeah, red herrings can lead to bad plays and false expectations. The most obvious case of harm is if a derived role softclaims that the role they are based off exists in the game.

The alternative would be giving derived roles an obscure Informed-except-it-appears-in-flips power only because of the openness of a Normal setup, effectively making derived roles function differently depending whether you are in a Normal or a Theme game.

That being said, do you think Informed-except-it-appears-in-flips could ever be Normal? The main issue is logistics, it would prevent flips from being a simple listing of the role in Normals.

P.S. the redirector investigation alteration is bastard if you are told "Player A is Not Town." except you actually targeted Player B.

[TemporalLich]

WIFOMy things like Back-ups without their main role, millers without cops etc... have been around forever. They're a perfectly reasonable thing to expect in a standard game

thanks for reminding me that a Miller in a setup without a Cop is a red herring

and that's not getting into some advanced red herring level shenanigans like putting a Strongman in a setup with no protective or manipulative roles or putting a Ninja in a setup with no action investigators that end up making a "no red herring" rule hard to define

[TemporalLich]

miller functions as a rolecop inno
so unless neither cop nor rolecop are in the setup, miller is not a red herring

yeah that just makes it even harder to ban red herrings from Normal

and regardless I think Earl (Named Townie, but specifically Town-aligned) might have a iota of potential as a Normal Town role if that is the case.

[TemporalLich]

yeah that's my main point on why I don't want red herrings banned - it creates a stark power difference between derived roles in Normals and derived roles in Themes

[TemporalLich]

If we get the greylist back we could probably use it for Combined Goons (A Combined Goon Alien is a very strong ability!)

[TemporalLich]

gunbearer kinda is better for themes and (for non-Mafia) some bastard games

being able to modify the factional kill might be considered for Normalizing but I think proposing unique roles in the vein of Strongman for some more interesting factional kill combinations is better for a Normal as each combo can be looked at by the NRG

also add Strongman as a modifier (or just add Strong-Willed, which is imo better)

[TemporalLich]

Echoing this from The "I need this role to be defined somewhere" thread:

Defining some "Combined Goon X" combos here - which will also allow them to be on Serial Killers:

Enforcer - A role that roleblocks as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Roleblocker)
Squelcher - A role that rolestops as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Rolestopper)
Vaporizer - A role that uses alien ability as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Alien)
Wraith - A role that commutes as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Commuter)

[TemporalLich]

maybe this could be a good way to implement such a gated role?:

Sleepy

Your role only functions if there are 5 or less players alive.

A roundabout way of making a role only function the Night before ELo or MeLo.

[TemporalLich]

Echoing this from The "I need this role to be defined somewhere" thread:

Defining some "Combined Goon X" combos here - which will also allow them to be on Serial Killers:

Enforcer - A role that roleblocks as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Roleblocker)
Squelcher - A role that rolestops as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Rolestopper)
Vaporizer - A role that uses alien ability as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Alien)
Wraith - A role that commutes as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Commuter)

I'd like to point out that any role which rolestops/aliens the target would, strictly speaking, prevent the kill from going through--so a Vaporizer/Squelcher could not actually kill their target when using the factional nightkill.

The town equivalent would be Combined Vigilante Rolestopper and Combined Vigilante Alien - having rolestop prevent the kills from those roles would make those roles pointless and also make a Squelcher and a Vaporizer not Normal.

Perhaps Asceticizer (Rolestopper that doesn't stop kills) could be Normalized?

Not being able to combine the factional kill but being able to combine Vigilante leads to an asymmetry with weird kill roles - such are Town only. Strongman is an asymmetry in favor of factional kills, it can't be used as a modifier in Normal games so Strongman Vigilante isn't normal.

A Vaporizer that works like Mastina described (one that voids out the factional NK) I would probably describe as a Distracting Alien (

Distracting

is a modifier that means "Your faction may not use the factional kill if you use this ability, attempting to use this ability will reveal it in the Mafia PT")

[TemporalLich]

Perhaps Asceticizer (Rolestopper that doesn't stop kills) could be Normalized?

You got Personal.

yeah but you still have Vigilante.

[TemporalLich]

Split (the opposite of combined, as in combine two abilities into one action but force them to have different targets) and Willbooster are BooneyToonz roles I think could be normal.

[TemporalLich]

So a Rival both needs Town to win and the other Rival dead?

That seems unbalanced.

Maybe as a role (not a third-party) that can kill other Rivals, but even that is Themey.

A Rival who wins if the other Rival dies before they do is the archetypal Rival to me, though you'd have to have the winning Rival exit to avoid a Kingmaker scenario.

[TemporalLich]

What third parties would you see being potentially normalized?

none of them

Serial Killer is the sole exception because you can use a lone Werewolf to emulate it (unless you want to run a game that is both multiball and SKattic)

[TemporalLich]

What third parties would you see being potentially normalized?

none of them

Serial Killer is the sole exception because you can use a lone Werewolf to emulate it (unless you want to run a game that is both multiball and SKattic)

nitpicky, but by normal guidelienes, membrers of a groupscum can't be solo

then I just inadvertently stated that Serial Killer should be denormalized

[TemporalLich]

NRA Member?

eh, too controversial for my taste

[TemporalLich]

out of my proposals I'd consider Reporter and Inspector to be subtle (not quite a zero power role though).

and Visitor is a Normal role.



Marker would be unpowered but is not subtle.

[TemporalLich]

yeah inspector is just a slightly better checker

it is a package deal with the more useful reporter though, as both are the binary action investigators that are each one half of the motion detector

pedit: a spread out Reporter? kinda veering toward greylist material tbh as it is oddly specific. A role that could target 2 players and can learn if at least either one acted or not is a spread out Reporter (assuming the correct logic gate is OR and not XOR - that is if both targets act it gives a positive result).

ppedit: a very spread out Reporter then.

[TemporalLich]

It's balanced, but I am not convinced it should be on the Normal whitelist for reasons of Normality tbh

[TemporalLich]

Spread Out is really only a modifier that can work on binary investigatives... a different version of Spread Out could be made for something like a Spread Out Doctor that will fail to protect if both targets are targeted by a kill or a Spread Out Roleblocker that will fail to block if both targets act.

again, I will state this is good material for a Normal Greylist if it ever comes back, but is too niche to warrant being whitelisted.

also I feel multi-target actions are a new mechanic and that is a major hurdle for Spread Out to overcome to being Normalized.

[TemporalLich]

heck, multi-target actions are what is likely to be the reason Split fails to get Normalized as a Split action is a multi-target action though Split is the most innocuous way to add the mechanic of multi-target actions.

[TemporalLich]

Marked would be a fair role though that is just a Reflexive Fruit Vendor (Reflexive isn't a normal modifier though)

A Token modifier that marks you when you use the attached ability is not that different from a Marked role.

[TemporalLich]

Reflexive would warp the Normal meta I feel like by adding roles that hurt you if you target.

Also there's the question of Reflexive investigative roles - you'd either have to state who the Reflexive investigative targeted to have it be what most people would except or you'd have a role that is pretty useless and confusing

Normality really needs to be defined or else it's just a cloudy "plays like a typical Mafia game" that leads to the Normal role list being bottom up (like it is now) instead of top down.

[TemporalLich]

if you are a Reflexive Cop these two result formats are

very different

in the information that they provide to the player.

Target is known:

"X is Town."

"Y is Not Town."

The Reflexive Cop would then have a clear and a guilty (and also know that X and Y targeted the Reflexive Cop).

Target is unknown:

"Your target is Town."

"Your target is Not Town."

The Reflexive Cop would only know that a Townie and a scum (or miller) targeted them.

[TemporalLich]

0-Shot Fruit Vendor is almost the same thing as Named in a Normal.

Something like Night 999, Night 1e100, or even Night 10↑↑10 would also be almost the same thing as Named.

It is very important to state that Reflexive turns an active role into a passive role, and you can even have an Activated Reflexive role to bring it back to active (but zero target), so a Reflexive role can't be blocked but an Activated Reflexive role theoretically could.

[TemporalLich]

Consider how you think a Reflexive Checker should work.

If targets are known you're a Self Watcher, if not you're just someone who knows how many people targeted you.

[TemporalLich]

I was asking if Reflexive investigatives should have their targets in their results PMs or not - if so literally every Reflexive investigative would be a Self Watcher but the investigatives would actually work like Normal targeted investigatives instead of giving some nebulous info cloud that at the very least tells you how many people targeted you.

A Sentry (Reflexive Vig) or a Reflexive Doc doesn't have results PMs and having them know who they targeted, while an idea worth considering, is not equivalent to Reflexive investigatives as they will work like their Normal targeted counterparts without needing to know their targets.

[TemporalLich]

Consider this condensed info cloud for a Reflexive Watcher who doesn't know their targets:

"You were targeted by someone who wasn't targeted by anyone, by someone who was targeted by X, and by someone who was targeted by Y and Z."

You'd probably intuit that you were targeted by 3 players and there are a lot of Power Roles. Not quite the power you'd expect from a Watcher, which is commonly considered to be equivalent in power to a Cop.

[TemporalLich]

Normality really needs to be defined or else it's just a cloudy "plays like a typical Mafia game" that leads to the Normal role list being bottom up (like it is now) instead of top down.

If there was some way we could do this it would be wonderful.

it would require literally building Normal from the ground up again so I doubt the NRG would do that

maybe an intermediate solution would work in outlining the expectations players have for a Normal game?

[TemporalLich]

the NRG and Normal listmod would be the ones with the power to actually build Normal from the ground up again instead of making a proposal.

[TemporalLich]

yeah I think Reflexive Vigilante (Sentry / PGO) is enough to consider Reflexive AbNormal

it is meta warping like Supersaint is, it punishes something that would normally be good play and the possibility of such a role existing is undue influence on the meta

[TemporalLich]

all in all I'm hoping to see new roles such as Shield get Normalized and the arcane complexity of Reflexive is a point against it (seriously, how would you resolve a Reflexive Bodyguard?! or a Reflexive Babysitter?!) being Normalized but meta warping is a more severe concern imo and PGO is meta warping to the point I don't want Reflexive to be Normalized (even if PGO itself is banned, consider how Reflexive Cop is almost as warping).

pedit: a "factional" neighborhood action is a new mechanic and Normal should just be Normal. Especially considering that the towny and scummy neighbor will fight over the action, it would require an additional new mechanic of voting for actions (Not Normal at all). Sorry, but neighborhood actions aren't Normal in my eyes.

[TemporalLich]

I don't see why Monk can't alias to Mason for Werewolf-flavor Normals

[TemporalLich]

multiball-specific Cops and Masons could exist but in Grand Idea you have Bloodhound and Inner Sanctum Keeper for the current Normal ones, whereas Cop and Mason are merely Anti-Mafia.

Multiball-specific Cop/Mason types for Normals? The ones for Mafia, Alternate Mafia, and Blue Mafia are probably bad:

Mafia-Cop - Investigator
Werewolf-Cop - Seer
Alternate Mafia-Cop - Alternate Investigator
Blue Mafia-Cop - Blue Investigator
Alignment Cop - Gets exact alignment

Mafia-Mason - Country Club Member
Werewolf-Mason - Monk
Alternate Mafia-Mason - Suite Member
Blue Mafia-Mason - Yellow Brick Mason
Pseudomason - Members know each other's alignment

And yeah Impersonal could work as a modifier tbh.

[TemporalLich]

I'd state I want anti-personal to be called something other than Factional or Group, as that would imply that adds an ability as a factional ability.

I'm suggesting Impersonal though it would be very niche in Normals

[TemporalLich]

So an Informed Townie would just flip as Vanilla Townie? That doesn't seem to make sense.

And anyway, this is a minor nitpick. Functionally, Masons and Informed Neighbors are identical.

Informed Townie would flip as an Informed Townie, but the info that Townie got would be redacted.

Same applies to Role Cops, they see "Informed" but not the actual info.

[TemporalLich]

Consider refactoring Vengeful into a night role. This will reduce the power of Vengeful by making it vulnerable to active protection (but not roleblocks) and also lead to the possibility of multikills but will deNormalize Twilight actions in Normals and possibly open the door to the Venge modifier being Normalized.

Night Vengeful would be able to submit a kill action on the Night after they are eliminated.

[TemporalLich]

a role minutia:

Compulsive Mailman should be required to confirm with a "default message" in Normal games.

[TemporalLich]

I should probably post the other Vengeful Normalization proposal here:

Vengeful must submit a target

before

they die, they can change this submission at any time. Not submitting anything will lead to a Vengeful holstering (unless they are a Compulsive Vengeful, though a Compulsive Vengeful is required to submit a compulsive list anyway).

[TemporalLich]

but yeah as it stands Vengeful requires non-standard phase structure which is quite evidently

not Normal

.

[TemporalLich]

Isn't Famous like Superstar, X-Result like X-Hit, Cursed like Flying, and Obsessive like Fixed?

Famous is described as passive Superstar (Superstar usually allows you to reveal yourself)

X-Hit was an attempt to make X-Result a modifier that applies to any role, honestly X-Result is better.

Cursed is more like Shadow, as Flying can target non-Flying but Cursed can't target non-Cursed. Flying can't be targeted by non-Flying though.

Obsessive allows you to change targets if your target dies, Fixed does not.

[TemporalLich]

Is Gutless (modified ability does not interact with kills) a new normal modifier or something? I assume no. Also Gutless Doctor would actually be useless instead of being the non-standard "doesn't work on killing roles".

[TemporalLich]

I could split it into a different modifier but I think it wouldn't be an interesting modifier

[TemporalLich]

Would Mediator be a good Normal role?

A Mediator targets two players, and prevents them from targeting each other the next Night and informs them that they are mediated.

important minutia - you cannot target the player you are mediated with with even a Strongman kill (or Strong-Willed action if that becomes Normal), as you are straight up not allowed to target them.

[TemporalLich]

I've been adding quite a bit of roles to the wiki, let me know if you want me to pick out some ones that could be worthy of being Normal

[TemporalLich]

How do post limiting rules fall under Normality?

Those like no tiny text or no black box spoiler tags (or no provable randomness before it became a site rule) should be Normal even if unannounced.

I'd assume innocuous post limiting rules such as no triple posting or Geriatric Ruleset or an absolute limit such as no more than 100 posts per 24 hours are Normal only if they are announced in signups.

As for post limiting rules that unduly change the meta such as relative posting limits (e.g. limiting posts if you have more than twice the median number of posts) or actual baked in post restrictions (e.g. you can't use the word "town") or collective limits (limits on the entire player list), those should not be Normal.

[TemporalLich]

yeah, I believe backup is a modifier instead of a derived role, so two backups of the same role and no non-backups of that role is not a red herring setup. Dual backups are a clear example of Negative Feedback however (unless the backup is for a negative utility role)

and yeah I'd treat backup as a scheduling restriction - which means you could have backup informed to get information when an informed player dies (which does not need to be the same info)

[TemporalLich]

from the wiki page for Backup, emphasis mine: Backup is treated as a

modifier to a role

, causing the role to be unusable and do nothing until another player with the same role (regardless of alignment) has died.

that means dual backups are not red herrings, so if one deputy dies the other deputy becomes a cop

backup would need to be a derived role for dual backups to be red herrings (unless the role exists in the setup otherwise)

cop enabler and cop-finder don't activate a deputy as those are roles derived from cop (also a cop enabler dying would disable a deputy anyway) - deputy would activate a deputy as backup is a modifier for cop

Also consider that Backup is categorized as a schedule restriction (s) in the RolePage template. Schedule restrictions are always modifiers. Backup is explicitly not a derived role for RolePage categories.

Also also consider that Normal Game lists Backup as a modifier and not a role.

[TemporalLich]

The other way to make backups not backup backups is to rewrite the standard role PM for backup to explicitly disallow it (instead of "Each night, but only once a P1 has died,", write "Each night, but only once a non-Backup P1 has died,"), but that would go against NRG consensus - this is easier to do however

note that this shouldn't make dual backups with the actual role more complex than it already is - if there are two deputies and the non-backup cop dies, both deputies become able to cop check

[TemporalLich]

In short: Backup as written can backup backups - removing Backup's ability to do this would shrink Normal design space (which is a bad thing) for no good reason and require making the exception clear in the standard Role PM

[TemporalLich]

If a Cop-Finder gets a positive result from a Deputy, a Deputy should be able to activate from a Deputy.

[TemporalLich]

I will concede that a backup activating from a backup doesn't sound right with an intuitive understanding of backup (how are you backing up from something that isn't actually what you're backing up from?).

However, as written, a Deputy is still considered to be a Cop for the roles that care about Cops (Deputy, Cop Enabler, and Cop-Finder are the ones I can list off the top of my head).

Backup seems to have a lot of deceptive complexity: for something that literally is just "You can start using your role once someone with your role dies" there are a lot of minutiae (two backups with no primary, multiple backups and the primary dies, depleted x-shots, other modifiers, and JOATs are some minutiae concerning Backup)

Personally I value roles acting consistently rather than intuitively in Normals, and making backup gain "a backup role isn't actually the role until it is active" only makes the role more confusing.

[TemporalLich]

Ideally there would be a better name for backup that would make the principled answer less unintuitive.

@Imp

I think the name works well for what it does and I think changing a role's name because of one controversial interaction is undue.

The only name I can think up to replace Backup is pretty much a synonym anyway, and that is

Reserve

.

[TemporalLich]

I think it would make more sense to amend the definition of the modifier than to change its name; and I think if the official ruling is that a Backup [Role] ‘should’ only activate when a non-Backup [Role] dies, the definition should in fact be amended to state that explicitly, so that we don’t have the opposite scenario of what implo described: players being at a

disadvantage

because they carefully read and interpreted the rules according to their literal meaning. It would really suck for a player like me or TemporalLich to discover and tease out the implications of some surprising interaction like this in a game we were playing, only to be wrong not because we misread but only because “oh everyone knows what that’s

supposed

to mean.”

Yeah - if Backup shouldn't activate on Backups dying that needs to actually written instead of defying my expectations on a modified role being the base role for roles that care about the base role (and Backup somehow isn't the base role).

Making a backup not activate on backups would still make a Cop-Finder say a Deputy is a Cop. Making a Backup version of the role not count as the base role would both disallow dual backups and have a temporary finder-godfather effect. (Gunsmith, which would normally care about the difference, explicitly sees guns on a Deputy anyway, though it would change whether or not a Gunsmith sees a gun on a Mafia Nurse)

(Cop Enabler would not have any meaningful difference whether or not a Deputy is a Cop, if not a Cop activates then gets disabled immediately from a dead Cop Enabler)

The design space could be reclaimed with a modifier saying "Each night, but only once an other {modifier} {role} has died," or "Each night, but only once an other {modifier} player has died,". The second would be less complex.

[TemporalLich]

Provoked

- Considering the "simple" version of the "dual backup" modifier (Each night, but only once an other {modifier} player has died,) is meaningfully different regardless of the ruling on Backup, here is a wiki page for the "dual backup" modifier, which is named Provoked (thank you Cook for the name).

[TemporalLich]

Are there any other modifiers we don't want triggering a backup? If it can just require a non-backup that would be a pretty simple solution.

Enabler is currently listed as a modifier on the Normal Game page, but I think it's generally agreed this is just incorrect and Enabler is actually a modular role like Finder.

yeah that would be incorrect and I'd actually want it to be Cop-Enabler instead of Cop Enabler tbh but a hyphen doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things

[TemporalLich]

A Nurse is considered to have the base role of Doctor I think (which would mean a Doctor-Finder gets a positive result (is a Doctor) on a Nurse and a Gunsmith gets a negative result (has no gun) on a Mafia Nurse)

I don't see a reason why Backups backing up backups isn't Normal other than "that interaction is counter-intuitive." and "The NRG didn't think about that interaction.", and the easiest fix for that would make the modifier refer to itself.

Imo, backups should get a note saying "Backups can activate other Backups of the same base role." (or can't, if the role is changed to specifically exclude Backups).

There's nothing that would make me outright say "dual Backups are not Normal", let alone "dual Backups are outside of potential Normal design space" (the latter would mean that Provoked, a proposal to simplify the dual Backup, isn't Normal). However, I'm not averse to complexity in Normals and dual Backups are a form of deceptive complexity. (if that interaction is

confusing

, that isn't Normal to me as it violates the principle of "Roles should be able to be understood without difficulty.")

[TemporalLich]

wait, you actually think a backup cop isn't a cop?

that would make it by definition

not

a modifier, but instead a derived role that ought to also get the Finder treatment like Enabler.

Backup is structurally a modifier that works like a schedule restriction. Imo, making it a derived role just for the sake of "Backups shouldn't actually be their base role" is confusing and thus

not Normal

.

I'm also curious on how the hypothetical Deputy-Deputy interaction if Backups can backup backups isn't a form of deceptive complexity. Seems like the modifier is being used in an unintended way that is possible RAW.

Also, "Roles should be able to be understood without difficulty." is a reason why I said Reflexive wasn't a good fit for Normal, I mentioned Reflexive Watcher as a confusing role. I think it's a good Normal principle, nobody should be confused reading their Role PM in a Normal.

[TemporalLich]

speaking about base roles:

Am I right in thinking a Jack-of-all-trades (Cop, Doctor) can activate a Deputy, gives a positive result to a Cop-Finder and Gunsmith, and can lose their Cop shot from a dead Cop-Enabler?

[TemporalLich]

About the Backup debacle:

It's pretty clear the RAW and RAI of Backup are substantially different. Also I think Cop-Backup is unidiomatic so I'd prefer it to stay a modifier because syntactically it sounds better as a modifier than a derived role. Also, it would be easier to have it as a schedule restriction modifier for the RolePage template.

Red herring Backups act like Named roles in the same way as red herring Finders act like Checkers. Red herring backups and Named roles are functionally the same, but one implants a false expectation and both are nominally different from each other because Role Cops exist.

General idea - A Backup is a replacement for a role that died, and can allow for Backups to have different modifiers than the player they are backing up. Dual Backups is an unintended consequence of RAW but I want it in the design space as it is an interesting concept to me.
Rules as Written (RAW) - Backup is a schedule restriction modifier that limits you to using an ability until the underlying base role has died. Since it is a modifier, Backup doesn't void the base role itself allowing for "dual Backups" to exist in Normal games.
my attempt at understanding Rules as Intended (RAI) - Backup is a derived role (in the vein of Enabler and Finder) that

changes your role

to the underlying base role when the underlying base role has died.
Cheap Workaround - Backups only activate from Non-Backups of the base role they back up. This allows it to stay a modifier and not change how Gunsmith works but seal off the unintended interaction.

(also, as a note: I prefer Cop-Enabler over Cop Enabler but that's mainly for consistency)
(also also, Universal Backup exists so role changes barely make it into potential Normal design space. Let's not get into how a Backup Universal Backup should work as that's way too complex.)

about JOATs and inherent multitasking:

Having a JOAT and having a hybrid of 1-shot roles is functionally the same but nominally different. However, you might be allowed to redact the abilities of a JOAT on flip which would not be the same with a hybrid of 1-shot roles.

JOAT is a "container role" in my mind, it takes roles and puts them in a package of 1-shot roles you can use one of each night. I don't feel strongly about JOAT having its contents count for base role purposes but I think it would be simpler if it did.

Inherent multitasking as I understand it was intended to let you perform a personal and a factional action each Night. It wouldn't make Jack-of-All-Trades (Cop, Doctor) and 1-Shot Cop 1-Shot Doctor differ in actual power.

Full inherent multitasking would indeed make JOAT and a hybrid of 1-shot roles work differently I think, however I'm not really feeling a Singletasking modifier is warranted.

[TemporalLich]

is there a reason scum Babysitter is allowed in a Normal?

it can act like scum Vigilante in a multiball or SKattic game, if killed that night

[TemporalLich]

Hey, this got unstickied but I'm pretty sure that it needs to be a sticky.

yeah I agree

it is important to know if Normal guidelines change, and even if Normal guidelines aren't changing in the near future this is still a thread to discuss changes to Normal Games

[TemporalLich]

A JoAT can flip with its abilities redacted in Normals. That is probably the most meaningful difference between a JoAT and a hybrid of 1-shot roles. I'm not sure how a Multitasking JoAT would work, either one JoAT ability per Night or any amount of JoAT abilities per night make sense.

A Jack-of-All-Trades-Finder could also potentially exist.

As for a JoAT with multiple shots - yeah idk if that would be Normal but it wouldn't increase design space by much though seeing Jack-of-All-Trades (Neighborizer x2, Cop) or Jack-of-All-Trades (Neighborizer, Neighborizer, Cop) might be a bit strange.

[TemporalLich]

imo, JoAT should be shorthand for a hybrid of 1-shot roles (as well as interacting with backup JoATs, JoAT-enablers, and JoAT-finders)

Jack-of-All-Trades (Cop, Doctor, Roleblocker)

and

1-shot Cop 1-shot Doctor 1-shot Roleblocker

should work the same

Redacting JoAT abilities doesn't seem Normal to me but I think it has precedent (I still don't think it should be Normal). A "Limited Reveal" role that would redact any abilities from the flip other than "Limited Reveal" itself isn't and shouldn't be Normal.

[TemporalLich]

Redacting JoAT abilities doesn't seem Normal to me but I think it has precedent (I still don't think it should be Normal). A "Limited Reveal" role that would redact any abilities from the flip other than "Limited Reveal" itself isn't and shouldn't be Normal.

Why should it not be normal?

It knowably withholds information that is reasonably expected to be known.

That isn't Normal, but it isn't bastard either.

[TemporalLich]

imo I'd want the greylist back in some capacity

however that would require writing some formal definition of Normal to avoid just having reviewers to also review if roles are Normal

otherwise, I kinda would want the greylist to still exist as an "experimental roles list" of roles that could make it to the Normal allowlist

[TemporalLich]

imo I'd want the greylist back in some capacity

however that would require writing some formal definition of Normal to avoid just having reviewers to also review if roles are Normal

otherwise, I kinda would want the greylist to still exist as an "experimental roles list" of roles that could make it to the Normal allowlist

What implementation did you have in mind?

I wrote this as an attempt to define Normal: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=89051

otherwise, add some promising Normal proposals to a greylist as well as stuff like X-Result

[TemporalLich]

oh yeah, x-result would be very good as a x-shot that gets refunded shots if it's blocked
tbh I think it should just be whitelisted?

X-Result as literally X-Result would only count successful investigations. Adding the Recharged modifier which can work for any role and also works for JoATs is better if you just want shots to be refunded to an x-shot role (as well as making the role a pseudo Checker).

e.g. Recharged 1-shot Cop may cop check until not roleblocked.

[TemporalLich]

Is it strange I don't see a logical problem with X-shot losing shots due to failed actions and action investigators not seeing blocked actions?

X-shot really means you can attempt that action X times, and if an action failed you still attempted that action.

as for action investigators, they are currently in something I'd consider their own layer of complexity - due to flavor reasons they care if a role "connects". A role "connects" if it isn't blocked, but failing due to protection still counts as "connecting". Commuting would be yet another layer of complexity, and I don't think it's worth changing how all action investigators work to remove that layer of complexity as it would be a sudden and sweeping change.

also, I slightly prefer action investigators being able to see attempted actions as opposed to just successful actions, as it's easier to resolve action investigators if they check for attempted actions. (the only way an action isn't attempted is if a non-Compulsive role doesn't submit their action)

[TemporalLich]

I've updated the wiki to reflect the new Normal changes.

Reporter and Inspector weren't my ideas, though Inspector might be an original name for the binary Watcher. Reporter however is an old name for what used to be a historical role, my proposal was for it to be the name of the binary Tracker. mastina is actually the first person to mention the Reporter in this thread specifically.

I did come up with Shield, Security Guard, and Visionary however.

(p.s. my name for the Role Watcher equivalent to Security Guard and Visionary is Role Guard.)

(p.p.s. I disagree with Shield being so low on the tier list, a Shield that crumbs its targets is quite powerful)

[TemporalLich]

(p.p.s. I disagree with Shield being so low on the tier list, a Shield that crumbs its targets is quite powerful)

Yes, this was considered. The role has a lot of potential to be swingy with how well the shield plays - if they crumb too obviously scum might shoot them (or have someone other than their target make the kill). If they crumb too non-obviously then they give no info when they die. And they won't be alive to explain their crumb when it matters, and people are

going

to look for a crumb, which means there's potential for misinterpretation. If they claim, then they no longer give any info when they die. But they do have potential to be very impactful - it just requires them to play really well.

Okay that's a very fair point. Shield seems to be a very interesting role though most of it is hidden in strategy.

(p.s. I made Shield as the Roleblocker equivalent to Bodyguard, though it more properly is equivalent to a role that blocks kill actions, which I'd call a Defender or Wall for now (though ToS players might be confused by the name Defender - it is more elegant than "Killblocker" however.).)

[TemporalLich]

I've always been partial to calling a killblocker a missionary.
(Was there a role called defender in ToS, I wasn't aware)

there is not a role called defender in ToS. Defense is the term that ToS uses for protection or immunity against kill actions (which are called Attacks).

[TemporalLich]

I've updated the wiki to reflect the new Normal changes.

Loud and Announcing have also been updated to reflect the new "Mod messages' sources must be explicit" rule.

(p.s. Announcing's wiki page implies you can modify factional kills with Announcing - modified factional kills are something that needs to be looked at closely for Normality imo -

especially

if they deny use of an unmodified factional kill)

[TemporalLich]

Is Shield simply a renaming of bodyguard?

Shield blocks a kill like a Roleblocker.

A Shield who targets the player

performing

a kill action takes the kill, while a Bodyguard targeting the

target

of a kill action takes the kill.

pedit: yeah, if there were a modifier that said "If you target someone who has attempted a kill action, you unavoidably die.", Shield would work similarly to that modifier.

[TemporalLich]

That’s imprecise wording, that suggests it dies on anyone that would return a guilty to a Detective

oh okay, then it should be "If you target someone who has attempted a kill action that night, you unavoidably die." (though I'd consider it inelegant. However imprecision is a worse problem in wording, having it be confused with "If you target someone who has ever attempted a kill action, you unavoidably die" is going to cause problems)

[TemporalLich]

I agree that modifications to the factional kill should be instead formatted as Mafia/SK roles. This will make it clear an unmodified factional kill is always an option.

We already have Strongman/Unstoppable (role), which applies Strongman/Unstoppable (modifier) (this is distinct from Strong-Willed as it doesn't affect redirection, but redirection is not Normal and I consider it strategically bastard (which is anathema to Normality)) to the factional kill. Strongman/Unstoppable (modifier) isn't Normal yet and I'm not sure it should be normal, even if it's actually called Strong-Willed (probably a good idea) instead.

And yeah, the small formatting difference between a global role modifier and a role modifier is a form of complexity that could cause confusion (since the difference relies on how the words are arranged or how the Role PM is written, which is very easy to miss and thus can cause confusion).

Some interesting modifications of the factional kill that I believe are role-worthy at least as a greylist role:

Enforcer

- Combines the factional kill with a Roleblocker ability.

Squelcher

- Combines the factional kill with a Rolestopper ability (that doesn't affect the factional kill it is combined with).

Vaporizer

- Combines the factional kill with an Alien ability (that doesn't affect the factional kill it is combined with).

Wraith

- Combines the factional kill with a Commuter ability.

Scoundrel

- Allows use of a Simple factional kill.

Striker

- Allows use of a Complex factional kill.

Wrecker

- Allows use of a Loud factional kill.

(and if restricting the factional kill becomes something that could potentially ever be Normal, I'd also suggest

Initiate

to apply the Backup modifier to the factional kill, making the factional kill unusable until someone with a factional kill dies.)

[TemporalLich]

Visionary and Security Guard I'd put in the Action Investigation section of the NAR ladder - they need to be last in the NAR ladder due to them necessarily being modified by any action (other than Ninja actions) like any other action investigative role

the other "send results PM to target" roles (Friendly Neighbor, Mailman, Fruit Vendor, Neighborizer) aren't really modified by actions that aren't protective or manipulative, so Miscellaneous makes sense. Miscellaneous should be considered the default position on the NAR ladder.

then again, I believe Rolestopper should be considered Protective on the NAR ladder (Rolestopper is a protective role) and Alien should be considered Jailkeep on the NAR ladder (Alien is a Jailkeeper that protects against all actions - then again mutual roleblocks are NAR's weakness but I'd resolve a mutual roleblock as both players being roleblocked with all other actions failing (two Jailkeepers cannot circle protect)).

[TemporalLich]

I'd actually want the action investigative roles that check for

what

action took place to work like how Announcing announces the action that was used and be based off of the base role.

for example, a Follower targeting a JoAT that used a Doctor ability that night would get a result of "{target} used a Doctor ability last night." if Followers just checked for the ability used.

The NAR ladder being used for Follower-type roles feels a bit arbitrary and making a Communicative group for the sole purpose of buffing Follower-type roles (the new Miscellaneous group would consist of Hider, Visitor, and Checker) is a point in favor of just allowing action investigative roles to check for abilities. I don't forsee Communicative needing a new position on the NAR ladder, and Security Guard and Visionary need to be in the Action Investigation position on the NAR ladder for action resolution purposes even though Communicative fits their action better.

[TemporalLich]

if factional kills and vigilante kills look different to Followers then yeah you effectively have a role equivalent to Detective, losing its power to detect earlier kills to become more generalized. You effectively get a Role Detective, but I'm not sure this massive buff to Follower offsets the complexity of using the NAR ladder to categorize each action (or the complexity of having a action type list).

This however is complexity that doesn't make a role not Normal, so more opinions would be needed before a change to Follower-type roles is made.



Some options for Follower-type roles:

A. Leave them as is (NAR ladder being relevant to players is a layer of complexity, Security Guard and Visionary (itself a Follower-type role!) have their position in the NAR ladder purely out of action resolution necessity)

B. Have a separate "action type list" (Still a layer of complexity players have to deal with but moderators have to deal with

two

very similar layers of complexity, allows for a Communicative category which doesn't affect action resolution)

C. Have them look for the exact action (allows them to get guilties because "factional kill" and "vigilante" are different actions, buffs Follower to Detective + Role Cop levels of power and makes Role Watcher less necessary)

D. Have them look for the exact action, but "factional kill" and "vigilante" are returned as "kill" (still makes Role Watcher less necessary to the point of a Role Watcher existing being liable to setup WIFOM)

E. Have an "action type list" that only consists of Investigative (allows player to learn information), Manipulative (affects other actions, doesn't include protective but does include Jailkeeper-type roles), Protective (protects a player from other actions, doesn't include Jailkeeper-type roles), Killing (causes player to leave the game), and Miscellaneous (anything that doesn't fall into the other four categories)

F. Remove Follower-type roles from the normal list (not very satisfying but acceptable if no good solution exists)



p.s. I suggest Spy as an alias for Voyeur. (though currently it redirects to Traitor in the wiki, so consensus will be needed for that name)

[TemporalLich]

yeah, my motivation for suggesting follower-type roles to see specific actions is to make follower-type roles simpler and more intuitive

the power boost that change would make would be massive however

[TemporalLich]

Detective and Psychologist are an unusual case of action investigative - whether an action has ever been attempted matters for their results

Psychologist is also a role investigative, since a Psychologist looks for unused kill abilities.

I think having them as role investigatives is better as they don't need to resolve after other role investigatives but do need to resolve after killing abilities, and they're role investigatives in spirit (having a kill ability is necessary but not sufficient for them to get a positive result)

so yeah, there's no action resolution issue to having Detective and Psychologist be role investigatives, and they're role investigatives in spirit even if they are action investigatives in letter.

I will point out that Action Investigation does need to exist as a separate position on the NAR ladder for action resolution reasons - they need to resolve last because their action is affected by any action without the Ninja modifier.



I'm not sure the reasoning for Rolestopper being considered to be a blocking instead of a protective ability on the NAR ladder - A rolestopper protects a player from all abilities. There might be action resolution reasons for it but Rolestopper is a protective role to me.

Alien likewise feels like a Jailkeeper-type role, being a combination of a protective and a blocking ability that is treated as a single ability.

[TemporalLich]

That does bring the question to whether a ninja ability would effect detective/psychologist

I would assume a kill ability being from a Ninja (role) or Ninja Vigilante doesn't matter from the perspective of a Detective or Psychologist

However, the concept of Ninja potentially affecting Detective and Psychologist is brain melting.

[TemporalLich]

That'd go back to how rolestoppers used to be defined as roleblocking everyone who targeted their target, basically. Rolestoppers cause every action targeting the player they select to fail; roleblockers cause every action the targeted player takes to fail.

At least that was the justification at the time. (We had a whole debacle about whether players would be seen visiting a rolestopped target a couple years back, but rolestopper being a roleblock-type role predates us having made that interaction more clear. Prior to a couple years ago, rolestoppers could genuinely cause a player visiting their target to not be seen visiting by a tracker/follower. A la, roleblockers.)

There's no compelling reason a Rolestopper shouldn't be considered a protective role (and an Alien a Jailkeep type role) for the purposes of the NAR ladder then.

Protective roles are still manipulative roles in the big picture, since they affect how actions resolve.

If your manipulative role causes actions

performed

by a player to fail, it is a Blocking role. If your manipulative role causes actions

targeting

a player to fail, it is a Protective role. Jailkeep is Blocking and Protective combined into a single role.

Rolestoppers cause every (other) action targeting their target to fail, like how Doctors cause a single kill action targeting their target to fail (in case of a multi-kill, both kill actions succeed as it would be impossible to determine through any known deterministic action resolution system which kill action succeeded).

Doctor, Rolestopper, Bodyguard, and Willbooster (protects from one roleblock) are protective roles.
Roleblocker, Shield, and Bulwark (kill specific roleblocker) are blocking roles.
Jailkeeper, Alien, and Peacekeeper (kill specific jailkeeper) are jailkeep type roles.

[TemporalLich]

Maybe I didn't word it right; I meant that a rolestopper traditionally

did

this.

It caused actions performed by a player targeting the rolestopper's target to fail.

That would be substantially different in the case of Multitasking roles. In the case of a Reflexive Roleblocker or a prototypical rolestopper, that would cause a Multitasking player targeting the reflexive roleblocker or rolestopped player and someone else to have

both

actions fail because they were

blocked

, instead of an Ascetic or a Normal Rolestopper causing only the action targeting the ascetic or rolestopped player to fail because it was

protected from

.

This is different from a doctor in that a doctor causes one specific type of action to not succeed--a killing player still attempts the kill, but is foiled by the doctor.
A killing player attempting the kill on a rolestopper used to work more like as if they were roleblocked.

Not sure how to convey it better.

Granted, again, was an old standard that has since been shifted, so you're not gonna see me defend the current way, but is background for how it ended up the current way.

In case the unusual interaction between prototypical Rolestopper and a Multitasking role wasn't a thing and I misunderstood the prototypical Rolestopper, currently the only difference in Normal design space is that roleblocked actions can't be seen by action investigators as they have been prevented and thus didn't even connect, while protected from actions still happened but still failed. Blocked actions have still been attempted, so you still lose shots and affect how Detectives see you either way.

I'm pretty sure the way action investigators "see" actions is an entire layer of complexity added for the sake of flavor, otherwise needing to determine if actions are prevented or not (rather than successful or not) isn't important.

I see Rolestopper as a protective role - it protects a target from all abilities, like how a Doctor protects from a single killing ability.

[TemporalLich]

Proposal in case we ever get Strongman as a modifier:

Unstoppable should be what the Strongman

modifier

is called. Juggernaut should be the official non-gendered alias for the Strongman

role

.

[TemporalLich]

a normal proposal for an alias:

Investigator

to replace

Cop

(

Role Investigator

,

Vanilla Investigator

, and

PT Investigator

would exist as well)

idk a good Mafia-flavor term for the role that checks for town/not town in Normal games, but Investigator might be worth adding. It is the prototypal investigative role, and a core Mafia role that is allowed in Simple games.