Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Gypyx]

Hey, I was wondering, why is vanillaiser considered not normal?

(like, i've read the conversations about it but i don't think anyone has said an answer about that)

[Gypyx]

First point :
Well, although it's kind of a stretch, enabler / backup are roles that make your role change through the course of the game

And then, i think that a very gated scum vanillaiser wouldn't be so bad (like, night 1 or night 4)
And town could use it to remove power "just in case" from suspicious VT claims, i don't think there's a need for scum to be OP for vanillaiser to exist
(Like :
Tracker
Vanillaiser
5 VT
Vs
Mafia night 2 rolecop
Mafia 2-shot ninja
Seems like a fine setup to me, at first glance)
so that's fine for both sides imo


Anyways, i'm totally fine with vanillaiser staying abnormal, but if it were to be normalized, it would have to be the announcing variant i think

[Gypyx]

Quoted from the wiki :

A Combined role necessarily performs all of its constituent actions on the single player it targets each night.

If you had two self-targeting abilites, like : Combined Activated Miller Activated Bulletproof, that would work imo

[Gypyx]

I agree that activated miller is kind of a bad role, i just used it as an example to a way to use the combined modifier on self-targeting roles

[Gypyx]

hey so, i've been about normal roles recently, especially finder, (don't know what it is? yeah don't worry, no one used it in a setup yet, basically you're an investigative who only gets a positive if the player you visit is a specific role)

the problem with it imo, is that it generally has low appeal because

- peoples already know what they're finding, so if they find a town role, that's a pretty good confirm imo, and if they find a scum role, a investigation working on a single person kinda sucks

- the role peoples find only exist for one person most of the time, if the guy who has this role dies, congrats you're a VT

so how about this : a

Universal Finder

, which would be derivated from that like we have a Universal backup derived from Backup

this role may target a player while naming a role, if the targeted player is said role, the universal finder gets a positive result

it could be used to confirm claims as town, or as a weak PR hunting tool for scum (which would need some support, like a mafia informed of setup and a universal finder would be quite fun imo)

Or is it just a bad idea?

[Gypyx]

Yeah basically

[Gypyx]

Just like UB is a Backup cop / Backup doctor / Backup Roleblocker

[Gypyx]

Good question about finding vanilla, i guess it could be up to discussion

And idk, Role Guesser sounds more themey to me if you see what I mean

[Gypyx]

Or an sk

But no it isn't normal

[Gypyx]

Just realized that PT cop doesn't show as having a gun to gunsmith

That's kinda lol tbh

[Gypyx]

Nice

[Gypyx]

This still seems to be the usual thread for general questions about Normal rules, so here's a general question.

If a Traffic Analyst targets a Night 2 Mailman on Night 1, or an X-Shot Mailman who has used all their shots, my understanding is they should get a negative result. Is this understanding correct?

i'd say that

night 2 : positive, as he still posesses the ability to mail, just that he can't do it yet

all shots used : the mailman can't use his abilty anymore, so it's a negative

[Gypyx]

when was the last normal multiball?

[Gypyx]

i'm honestly baffled that modifier-finder isn't a thing

[Gypyx]

take off their recruiting, give them a factional nightkill, and name them "mafia"

[Gypyx]

A Backup Traitor would be a very odd role to add to a game but it would be theoretically possible - if a Traitor dies a Backup Traitor loses access to the Mafia kill and the Mafia PT

such a role was refused in a previous normal review though, and i don't think the stance has changed on that

[Gypyx]

well, a traitor vigilante can't exist, so i think it's a question we can leave unanswered

[Gypyx]

can you even attach modifiers to roles that have no powers (e.g. vanillas)?

well, yeah

Mafia Multitasking is a legit role for instance

[Gypyx]

X-Shot Townie should not be allowed since in Great Idea it just becomes a Survivor after all the "shots" are expired

normals don't follow the same rules are great idea

a Town 2-shot would be able to perform his non-existant ability twice basically

[Gypyx]

Combined Cop would technically be correct but also is wrong - You're meant to put at least two things in a Combined container but it's not like you're going to crash the game if Combined has 1 or 0 things in it.

well, a Mafia combined cop would be forced to have the same target for a Factional Kill and Cop action right?

[Gypyx]

Another example:

• It seems mostly agreed that e.g. a Mafia Loyal Rolestopper can still carry out the factional kill against town, mostly because that's how everyone wants it to work. This means the Loyal modifier attaches only to the abilities of the role it modifies.
  
• There is precedent that Mafia Loud Goon is an acceptable normal role and that it will commit the factional kill loudly, implying the Loud modifier attaches to all active abilities including factional ones.

Is this a contradiction? Only under an overly formalistic interpretation where each modifier must fall into one of a number of categories and all modifiers in that category have to have the same scope. In practice no one cares, and this is just resolved by the obvious intent of the setup designer.

you can have modifiers applied to a single part of the role or the role as a whole

[Gypyx]

also kinda off topic but i wondered, would allowing the scumteam to assign the roles among them has room them has room for design in normals?

[Gypyx]

also kinda off topic but i wondered, would allowing the scumteam to assign the roles among them has room them has room for design in normals?

bumping this cuz it kinda got ignored but i think the idea has potential

[Gypyx]

In my opinion that should stay in theme games, working with x player having y role should stay part of the normal experience

Normal games are about offering players a consistent experience though, and maybe it's a feature of normals, but i doubt many peoples are in for the "oh boy, can't wait to try to protect my teamate who happens to be important as scum !"

and Goon is the vanilla version of mafia, so it can't be enabled, just like you can't enable a serial killer

[Gypyx]

Perhaps Asceticizer (Rolestopper that doesn't stop kills) could be Normalized?

You got Personal.

yeah but you still have Vigilante.

isn't worthy of being a whole new role imo, we should aim at keeping the list of normal roles to a medium size

[Gypyx]

What third parties would you see being potentially normalized?

none of them

Serial Killer is the sole exception because you can use a lone Werewolf to emulate it (unless you want to run a game that is both multiball and SKattic)

nitpicky, but by normal guidelienes, membrers of a groupscum can't be solo

[Gypyx]

How about a Modifier where, if a player acts at Night, it leaves a token/marker/whatever on itself.

And then have a PR—or a modifier—that lets you check a player at Night to see if they have any of these tokens/markers on them.

How does that sound?

cool for a theme, not really a normal imo

[Gypyx]

well, imo, one of the rules of normal roles is that they shouldn't like, create mechanics that interact between themselves, for instance a fruit vendor by himself is okay, but i wouldn't want a fruit cop that checks if someone has fruits

[Gypyx]

well, no, your token makes the guy appear positive to THAT specific role, and that's it, which is imo, not good design for normal

like, basically, the token modifier works only in combination with your investigative, which isn't something you'd wanna have in a normal whitelist in my eyes

[Gypyx]

sounds like putting the graylist into place but with extra steps lol

personally i'd be fine with it, although maybe splitting up the normal queue isn't the best idea, a rotation could be better?

[Gypyx]

Multiball-specific roles doesn't seem to me like how normals should work, or at least not how they work currently, but there could be discussion around that? (example : cop doesn't make a difference between werewolves / mafias)

additionally, i have another suggestion, how about an "anti-personal" modifier? Like it makes the role only affect factional abilities, could be useful as a buffing tool for manipulatives or a modifying in an interesting way some roles (anti-personal Role Watcher comes to mind for instance)

[Gypyx]

I'm suggesting Impersonal though it would be very niche in Normals

maybe yeah, but given we have like visitor in the whitelist, i'd say it's not a huge problem to have less common modifiers like that

[Gypyx]

also impersonal pretty damn good

nothing personal, kid

[Gypyx]

can we alias

Alien

to

Abductor

to help differentiate the faction and the role?

I'm opposed to this because the role name predates the faction name. Alien was a role before the Alien faction existed.

Also Alien as a faction is (mostly*) not Normal.

*(It

could

be done I believe because I believe it isn't a strict rule that multiball factions must be called 'mafia' and 'werewolves', but I could be mistaken. But, even if I'm not and it can technically be done through flavor, I would not recommend it.)

the only valid names for alternative multiball factions are Werewolves / or a mafia variation

[Gypyx]

does this really belong in this thread though

[Gypyx]

well, not really for changing a faction's name, besides imo, factions are way more something that's a "culture" thing than an arbitrary name, you can't change it like that with little reason

[Gypyx]

pretty niche modifier, like, manipulative roles only

[Gypyx]

sounds like it has a similar but less versatile utility than fast / slow

it could work in normals though i guess

[Gypyx]

Well, just give separate lists for both roles, i don't see why it can't work like that

[Gypyx]

yeah true, the list is just a backup option really