Mini Normal 2010 - Scientific Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Gustavo

Let's get some wagons going.

[Shoshin]

Screen's probably town because of post #20. Feels town.

[Shoshin]

Screen's probably town because of post #20. Feels town.

Are some jokes are inherently towny? I'm not sure what's the meta on that aspect, especially in RVS.

What's your read on it?

[Shoshin]

Screen's probably town because of post #20. Feels town.

Fake
VOTE: Shoshin

Vote feels creepy.

[Shoshin]

What is it about this vote that feels creepy to you?

He's voting me for townreading one of his posts.

[Shoshin]

I can sort of understand this kind of vote, some people do like to establish a 'buddy' of sorts (which imo is scummy as hell) and distancing yourself away from any early attempts at friendliness

could

be a good idea.

What's scummy about townreading someone?

[Shoshin]

I can sort of understand this kind of vote, some people do like to establish a 'buddy' of sorts (which imo is scummy as hell) and distancing yourself away from any early attempts at friendliness

could

be a good idea.

What's scummy about townreading someone?

Well nothing in isolation, but when you take into consideration that it was a read on a RVS vote (which aren't really alignment indicative from my stance), then you can take into account the possibility that people can use these early on to try and get into peoples good books by townreading them, then it can come off as a tiny bit sus, and at this stage in the game a tiny bit sus is all we're gonna be able to latch onto until more discussion happens.

There's more to the read than an RVS vote. It's about his reasoning for that vote, as well as the context in which it was said. It's not something that scum would have said, so it felt town. And from my perspective, the way you make "more discussion happen" (your words) is by developing reads, including townreads, not by waiting around hoping something happens. The passive approach is actually much more pro-scum.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: ByronVilla

[Shoshin]

Huh, I thought Byron made a good point, but that Sho's comment on Screen was fine, so I didn't put too much stock in it. The OMGUS vote is really weird, though. I can get on this wagon. VOTE: Shoshin

Let me explain. Byron's voting me for townreading Screen. His explanation: Screen's town, I'm buddying Screen, so therefore I'm scum. My read on that: Byron's scum under his own criteria for what's scum and what's town, because (a) Byron assumes that Screen's town without any basis (he needs to do that to claim that I'm buddying Screen), (b) Byron buddies Screen by sheeping him (i.e. voting me), and (c) Byron claims that buddying is scummy (which he's doing) is scummy. This is precisely the type of hypocrisy that comes from scum because it's an example of someone's scumhunting criteria corresponding to their own behavior.

[Shoshin]

BuJaber's perceptive.

[Shoshin]

Bu, thoughts on Byron?

[Shoshin]

I think it's a pretty false equivalence, what you did vs what Byron did. You called Screen's post Town without any other motivator, whereas he's scumhunting and his best lead assumes Screen is Town, so he's going with it, but his primary motivation isn't to establish Screen as Town.

I called post #20 town because it's a town-tell. The motivation was to get people talking about reads, to move away from RVS, to figure out who the scum are, and to eventually lynch them. And figuring out who the scum are involves figuring out who the town are. My motivation wasn't to buddy Screen. If anything, I did the opposite because I dislike his personality.

Byron's scum because his internal logic doesn't square. He said buddying Screen is scummy, yet he's buddying up to Screen. let me put this in more abstract terms. You can't say player X is buddying player Y unless you already know (or believe) that player Y is town. And if you think player Y is town, then you can't fault player X for also thinking player Y is town. But that's what Byron is doing. He's assuming Screen is town for the sake of scumreading me. In a way, he's scumhunting through associative tells, which is scummy at this stage in the game because the scum already know everyone's alignments while the town don't.

[Shoshin]

I can sort of understand this kind of vote, some people do like to establish a 'buddy' of sorts (which imo is scummy as hell) and distancing yourself away from any early attempts at friendliness

could

be a good idea.

I don't like this "could" language either.

[Shoshin]

I bet if someone were to analyze how often scum townread RVS posts vs how often town do, you'd see a lot more townies than scum. Like 9/10 town.

[Shoshin]

No, what Byron did is several steps removed from scumhunting. I directly read a post as town. That's direct scumhunting. Byron didn't say my post was directly scummy. He said it was scummy because Screen was town. Byron's scumhunting only makes sense as an associative tell, and yes, associations are uncommon among townies at the beginning of a game. But scum do them all the time, because scum operate from an informed perspective, which means they're always seeing these sorts of associations, regardless of whether they want to.

[Shoshin]

knuflanto is probably town. Very good point about BuJaber. Need to think on it.

[Shoshin]

No, what Byron did is several steps removed from scumhunting. I directly read a post as town. That's direct scumhunting.

Byron didn't say my post was directly scummy.

He said it was scummy because Screen was town. Byron's scumhunting only makes sense as an associative tell, and yes, associations are uncommon among townies at the beginning of a game. But scum do them all the time, because scum operate from an informed perspective, which means they're always seeing these sorts of associations, regardless of whether they want to.

I guess he'll have to clarify, but I read his 47 as exactly that. Byron, which way did your reads flow? Was it ScreenTown -> ShoScum, or ShoScum -> ScreenTown?

I understand why Byron would say that Screen's townness makes me scum, because in Byron's mind, buddying is scummy. But why would me being scum make Screen town?

[Shoshin]

Also how am I buddying with Screen? I'll admit I'm assuming he's town for the sake of the theory, but that's all there is to it. I'm not town reading him, I'm just making an assumption that could very well be wrong for the sake of scumreading you. This, more than anything else you've said, has come off super desperate to me, however weirdly enough I'm starting to think you're desperate town more than scum. I'll have to think more into this to decide if I'm actually confident in this read or not, although I'm still learning a bit more towards scum.

You defended Screen, said his creepy vote made sense to you, and then you followed Screen's vote. How isn't that cozying up to Screen? I get the sense that you're projecting your own motivations onto me.

[Shoshin]

Saudade, how do you square suspecting me with voting TehBrawl?

[Shoshin]

I think Byron's readlist, at the very least, shows effort in trying to form reads on people. I do think that people are hypersensitive at the prospect of letting me become a lurker, but the criticism levelled against me has some merit IMO.

I can't follow your read on Byron. Town or scum, and why?

[Shoshin]

Also how am I buddying with Screen? I'll admit I'm assuming he's town for the sake of the theory, but that's all there is to it. I'm not town reading him, I'm just making an assumption that could very well be wrong for the sake of scumreading you. This, more than anything else you've said, has come off super desperate to me, however weirdly enough I'm starting to think you're desperate town more than scum. I'll have to think more into this to decide if I'm actually confident in this read or not, although I'm still learning a bit more towards scum.

You defended Screen, said his creepy vote made sense to you, and then you followed Screen's vote. How isn't that cozying up to Screen? I get the sense that you're projecting your own motivations onto me.

Ok so his point made sense to me and I defended it. That isn't buddying. I'm not reading him as town, I'm assuming he's town. Me defending a point that your post felt out of place is different to you reading RVS nonsense as town-like with practically no explanation. Also you really should stop calling his vote creepy, iirc no-one else has supported you on that point. And that language man, creepy implies you're scared of his vote, and it really puts you off, which is quite a weird way to describe a vote, making it almost feel like he's onto you..? Idk maybe I'm reading too much into a single word, so I'm not too confident in that read.

You're reading way too much into this. I said "creepy" because that's the feel it gave me... It doesn't mean I'm scared, it means it feels bad when your first townread in the game immediately votes you. It doesn't mean he's scummy or that I'm scared. It's the hyper-paranoia that's creepy, plus the bad feel it gave me.

[Shoshin]

Not a huge fan of how little content TiaM and Saudade have in their posts. Note that this is not a criticism of not having a lot of posts yet - it doesn't apply to voyc or knuf. I don't really want to swap votes right now though because giving them one vote doesn't do a whole lot. Would anyone else support TiaMWagon or SauWagon?

Saud is... "creepy" - just kidding, but yeah, I think his votes on me/you seemed lazy and internally inconsistent.

Who is TiaM? Didn't see any posts.

[Shoshin]

Note that this is not a criticism of not having a lot of posts yet - it doesn't apply to voyc or knuf.

Why group voyc with knuf?

[Shoshin]

Because they're currently the two lowest posters in the game.

Your point was that Saudade didn't have any content to his posts. Knuf only has two posts, but there's lots of content, enough to know he's looking for scum. But Voyc has less content than Saudade...

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Hopkirk
I think his post where he voted for TehBrawlGuy sounded manipulative.

What's manipulative about it?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: TehBrawlGuy

For reference, Garuga, this is the post where Hopkirk voted TehBrawl.

[Shoshin]

I think the "find some town in the smart sheepers" bit is manipulative.

What's scummy about it?

[Shoshin]

I liked TiaM's post #85. Don't see why scum would defend me there.

[Shoshin]

Scum doesn't care whether or not they're defending you there, they care that Screen is a non-offensive place to vote-park that doesn't disrupt any of the major wagons too much.

I read it as disruptive of a major wagon (mine), but I understand your point.

[Shoshin]

At this point, I'd rather keep building pressure on Byron than splitting votes on TiaM or Gustavo, though I wouldn't mind competing wagons. Gustavo gets a pass for now because Byron's voting him.

[Shoshin]

It's not about quantity of content, it's about perspective. Gustavo's vote on Byron felt town.

Garuga, why are you reading Byron as town? Look at 84, so many words to say basically nothing.

[Shoshin]

There's no reason to assume the neighborhood is "1 scum, 2 town."

[Shoshin]

BuJaber, why are you voting me?

[Shoshin]

I think Srceenplay vs. Shoshin is the elephant in the room right now.

Why are you voting me, not Screen?

[Shoshin]

knuflanto is town.

[Shoshin]

Hop, why town on BuJab?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: BuJaber