Pine's Large Normal Review, May 2018

ISO · Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sat May 12, 2018 12:03 pm

Pine wrote:Decided to playtest recently-whitelisted stuff

---------------

17 Players - 12 Town, 4 Mafia, 1 Serial Killer

Vengeful Townie
Detective
Psychologist
Hider
Loyal Fruit Vendor
Babysitter
Informed Townie: Knows all but one role was recently whitelisted (VTs)
5 VTs

Mafia Prime-Number-Night Jailkeeper (1 treated as prime)
Mafia Loud Tracker
Mafia Ninja (Effectively Goon)
2-shot Activated Bulletproof Goon

1-shot BP Serial Killer

ISO · Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sat May 12, 2018 12:04 pm

Primary reviewer: Firebringer
Secondary reviewer: mastina

Pine · Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sat May 12, 2018 12:07 pm

Hello friends! I have some changes to make already. First, 1 is not a prime number.

Second, I'm thinking I'd like to replace the Mafia tracker with a Disloyal Governor. No X-shot.

They can pardon Townies or the SK if they like for the WIFOM and Towncred, but with serious risk of it backfiring.

Firebringer · Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sat May 12, 2018 12:22 pm

Hey Pine whats up!

I don't believe that you are allowed "Mafia Prime Number-Night Jailkeeepr (1 isn't prime)"
You could do "Mafia Novice Odd Night Jailkeeper" which does same thing.

Disloyal and Governor are not allowed either.

I don't know what Psychologist or Babysitter are, but again those aren't normal.
Informed isn't normal
Activated isn't normal for BP
Vengeful also.

Lots of not normal stuff here lol

What exactly are you going for and your objective with this game?

Firebringer · Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sat May 12, 2018 12:40 pm

Okay I have been mistaken, and I guess I should read updates more often.

We will be removing the greylist rule, which previously allowed one non-whitelisted role in mini games and two in large games. The whitelist will be expanded to compensate. To begin, the following roles are immediately considered whitelisted:
Vengeful (normal for town only): if lynched, you may kill a player as you die.
Babysitter: target a player to protect them from kills. If you are killed that night, they will also die.
Fruit Vendor: target a player to give them a piece of fruit. They will be informed that they received it.
Psychologist: target a player to investigate them and determine if they are capable of killing anyone. If they have already killed someone or attempted to kill someone, this will return a negative result. Resolves after kills.
Detective: target a player to investigate them and determine if they have attempted to kill someone, successful or not. Resolves after kills.
Visitor: at night, you may target a player; this has no effect beyond targeting them.
The following modifiers are also immediately considered whitelisted:
Disloyal: if you target a player who shares your alignment, your action will fail.
Loud: if you target another player, they will be informed that you targeted them, but not what you did.
Ninja: your action cannot be detected by trackers, watchers, motion detectors, followers, or voyeurs. (Previously a mafia-only role, now whitelisted for all alignments as a modifier applying to any action that the ninja takes.)
Multitasking: you may use multiple abilities, including factional abilities, in the same night.

So I believe everything in here is now allowed.

Pine · Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sat May 12, 2018 12:52 pm

That's actually the premise behind the design

I'm playtesting the recently-whitelisted modifiers and roles

Pine · Post Post #6 (ISO) » Sat May 12, 2018 4:54 pm

Here's the revised setup:

17 Players - 12 Town, 4 Mafia, 1 Serial Killer

Vengeful Townie
Detective
Psychologist
Hider
Loud Loyal Fruit Vendor
Babysitter
Informed Townie: Knows all but one role was recently whitelisted (VTs)
5 VTs

Mafia Prime-Number-Night Jailkeeper (1 is not a prime number. 2, 3, 5, 7 are)
Mafia Disloyal Governor (Unlimited shots, cannot save Mafia. Kind of neg utility, but can be WIFOMy)
Mafia Ninja (Effectively Goon)
2-shot Activated Bulletproof Goon

1-shot BP Multitasking 2-shot Tracker Serial Killer

Pine · Post Post #7 (ISO) » Sat May 12, 2018 5:42 pm

17 Players - 12 Town, 4 Mafia, 1 Serial Killer

Vengeful Townie
Detective
Psychologist
Hider
Loud Loyal Fruit Vendor
Babysitter
Informed Townie: Knows all but one role was recently whitelisted (VTs)
5 VTs

Mafia Prime-Number-Night Jailkeeper (1 is not a prime number. 2, 3, 5, 7 are)
Mafia Disloyal Governor (Unlimited shots, cannot save Mafia. Kind of neg utility, but can be WIFOMy)
Mafia Ninja
2-shot Activated Bulletproof Goon

1-shot BP Multitasking 2-shot Tracker Serial Killer

Changed fruit vendor from loyal to disloyal. I was considering it a bit trollish, but a clever player can turn it into a cop by demanding that anyone who received a fruit claim it. Receiving fruit hard-clears recipient. No one claims, they know their target was scum.

Disloyal is more interesting, as it isn't an obvious investigative power.

Pine · Post Post #8 (ISO) » Sat May 12, 2018 5:45 pm

Thoughts on balance?

Lots of weak/situational/unreliable investigators, minimal weak protective roles. Scum have solid power to compensate. SK has defense, limited investigative.

Pine · Post Post #9 (ISO) » Sat May 12, 2018 5:53 pm

Governor still isn't Normal. Missed that.

Damn, I really liked the notion of a Disloyal Mafia Governor.

17 Players - 12 Town, 4 Mafia, 1 Serial Killer

Vengeful Townie
Detective
Psychologist
Hider
Loud Loyal Fruit Vendor
Babysitter
Visitor
Informed Townie: You know that all roles, aside from any VTs, have some element to them which was recently white-listed.
4 VTs

Mafia Prime-Number-Night Jailkeeper (1 is not a prime number. 2, 3, 5, 7 are)
Mafia Loud Disloyal Fruit Vendor
Mafia Ninja
2-shot Activated Bulletproof Mafia Goon

1-shot BP Multitasking 2-shot Tracker Serial Killer

[/quote]

Firebringer · Post Post #10 (ISO) » Sun May 13, 2018 7:58 am

I haven’t thought about balance at all, I will give you some input later today.
Tell Lady Pine happy Mother’s Day

Pine · Post Post #11 (ISO) » Sun May 13, 2018 8:14 am

Sounds good, Fire <3

Firebringer · Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sun May 13, 2018 4:43 pm

Setup and Thoughts:

17 Players - 12 Town, 4 Mafia, 1 Serial Killer

Vengeful Townie
Detective
Psychologist
Hider
Loyal Fruit Vendor
Babysitter
Informed Townie: Knows all but one role was recently whitelisted (VTs)
5 VTs

Mafia Prime-Number-Night Jailkeeper (1 treated as prime)
Mafia Loud Tracker
Mafia Ninja (Effectively Goon)
2-shot Activated Bulletproof Goon

1-shot BP Serial Killer

Question: I am confused on your wording of Informed Townie. Does he give the whole role list for town to player? Just the new whitelist roles? Not sure exactly the informed part of his role.

If Hider hides behind the Babysitter, and babysitter chooses someone else that night to guard. That means potentially three deaths in one night. I think the chances of this are remote but it does speak alot about the potential high kill count given we already have two killing roles and a possible night of four deaths. I think maybe if this game was larger have both a babysitter and hider.

Perhaps not both?

Town seems rather weak to me on the outset of things:
Like the strongest roles you have I think are the detective and maybe psychologist? It depends on how much information the informed townie has.

Hider is kind of weak and Babysitter is weaker than that. Vengeful townie is decent enough.

Scum team is too strong for this town especially. Mafia Ninja is like you said a goon, but still I don't see the need to give a BP to the mafia when that stops the crosskills.

I think you just need to up the town here.

Firebringer · Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sun May 13, 2018 4:48 pm

I think the best things for this game would be:
Replace the Babysitter or Hider with something with a little more ooomf
and taking out the Bulletproof Mafia

Then I think the setup would be fine to be run, might still be a bit scumsided but I think it would be alright.

Pine · Post Post #14 (ISO) » Sun May 13, 2018 5:06 pm

+ Informed Townie will receive the following information: "All roles in this game, aside from Vanilla Townies and/or Mafia Goons, have some element to them which was recently whitelisted for Normal games."

+ I didn't think of the Babysitter/Hider interaction, good catch. Perhaps replace Babysitter with a more robust protective role. Perhaps straight Doctor? Modify the Informed Townie to say "All roles but one." That would help with an unfortunate fakeclaim. Alternatively, drop 'Loud' from the fruit vendors and append it to the Doctor.

+Town is less weak than it looks. It has two complementary weak investigators, both of whom have a chance to catch the SK. The Loud Loyal Fruit Vendor, if they're clever, can also turn their role into an ad hoc investigator, countered by the Mafia version of same.

+Ninja is weaker than it looks, as the only tracking role is 2-shot from the SK. Most recent notes from me indicate that 1 is not a prime number, so it's essentially N2/N3/N5/N7 jailkeeper. The Bulletproof goon is only 2-shot activated; they choose which nights they're bulletproof on, max of two nights. Odds of that actually being relevant are scant. Does not work against vengeful townies, as it's night protection only.

+Tracking aspect of SK is weakened by the presence of a Visitor and two fruit vendors.

17 Players - 12 Town, 4 Mafia, 1 Serial Killer

Vengeful Townie
Detective
Psychologist
Hider
Loyal Fruit Vendor
Loud Doctor
Visitor
Informed Townie: You know that all roles, aside from any VTs, have some element to them which was recently white-listed.
4 VTs

Mafia Prime-Number-Night Jailkeeper (1 is not a prime number. 2, 3, 5, 7 are)
Mafia Disloyal Fruit Vendor
Mafia Ninja
2-shot Activated Bulletproof Mafia Goon

1-shot BP Multitasking 2-shot Tracker Serial Killer

Firebringer · Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sun May 13, 2018 5:14 pm

I am not too woried about SK balance, I think having the scum having a BP even if it is activated is just lowering amount of possible cross kills that is usually to benefit of town.

I like the change of babysitter to Loud Doctor.

I kind of still think town is a little too weak here.....

I think I need to do a worst case scenario here for both sides.
I will do that in a bit, going out for a short walk.

Pine · Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sun May 13, 2018 5:17 pm

Then perhaps just drop the Bulletproof goon entirely?

Or give the 2-shot activated BP to Town?

Firebringer · Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sun May 13, 2018 5:21 pm

If you give a 2 shot activated BP to Town I am fine with the setup then.

Firebringer · Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sun May 13, 2018 5:22 pm

I would need to see the rules and exact role pms but you make that change and should be fine.

Pine · Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sun May 13, 2018 5:25 pm

17 Players - 12 Town, 4 Mafia, 1 Serial Killer

Vengeful Townie
Detective
Psychologist
Hider
Loyal Fruit Vendor
Loud Doctor
Visitor
Informed Townie: You know that all roles, aside from any VTs, have some element to them which was recently white-listed.
2-shot Activated Bulletproof Townie
3 VTs

Mafia Prime-Number-Night Jailkeeper (1 is not a prime number. 2, 3, 5, 7 are)
Mafia Disloyal Fruit Vendor
Mafia Ninja
Mafia Goon

1-shot BP Multitasking 2-shot Tracker Serial Killer

Writing role PMs.

Pine · Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sun May 13, 2018 5:45 pm

1. The site-wide rules and Boilerplate Mafiascum Game Rules are in play. Please know them.
2. Be nice. I will be the arbiter of what 'nice' is. Mafia is an adversarial game by nature, but personal hostility and toxicity will not be tolerated.
3. Do not discuss the game outside the game thread, except with the moderator, unless your Role PM specifies that you may do so. Do not discuss other ongoing games in this thread or in any topics you might have access to.
4. You may ask me questions either in the thread or via PM. For some questions, I may be willing to answer via PM but not in-thread for a variety of reasons.
5. Do not quote private communication with me directly. Paraphrasing is acceptable; if you're not sure whether a post violates this rule, ask me or don't post it. You also may not pretend to quote communications with me. This includes your Role PM.
6. My color is

DARK ORANGE

; please don't use it.
7. No dice tags or otherwise provably arbitrary algorithms.
8. Do not attempt to emulate out-of-thread communication using encryption or hidden/obscured text.
9. I reserve the right to warn, force-replace, or modkill as I deem necessary. Don't push it.
10. I reserve the right to add to or change the rules.

Procedural Rules

1. If you wish to vote for a player, please use vote tags or bold tags. That said, if you forget the tags, your vote will still count if it is clear to me that a vote was intended.
2. A player is considered lynched when he or she reaches a number of votes equal to half the number of living players rounded down plus one.
3. You may continue discussion in twilight before I show up and lock the thread. Do not post after I officially state that you are dead.
4. If no majority is reached by deadline there will be No Lynch.
5. Days will have a non-negotiable deadline of 2 weeks. I may choose to extend a deadline in special circumstances, but it's unlikely. Don't count on it.
6. Nights last 48 hours.
7. Prods go out after 48 hours. Failure to post in a timely fashion after a prod, or accumulating several prods, may result in force replacement at my discretion.
8. As per Normal rules, you may not use a role-based ability in the same night as a factional ability (including factional kill) unless your role PM specifically permits you.
9. All Private Topics, including any Mafia factions, have daytalk enabled.
10. Don't do things you know you shouldn't do, even if I've neglected to include a rule on the matter. Likewise, attempts to circumvent these rules via semantics will be treated harshly.

What follows is a sample Vanilla Townie role PM:

Spoiler: Vanilla Townie Role PM

Spoiler: Mafia Goon Role PM

Pine · Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sun May 13, 2018 6:37 pm

Spoiler: Vengeful Townie Role PM

Mod Note: Both Bulletproof roles specifically stop

night

kills. Both are vulnerable to this shot.

Spoiler: Detective Role PM

Spoiler: Psychologist Role PM

Spoiler: Town Hider PM

Spoiler: Town Loyal Fruit Vendor Role PM

Spoiler: Town Loud Doctor Role PM

Spoiler: Town Visitor Role PM

Spoiler: Informed Townie Role PM

Spoiler: 2-shot Activated Bulletproof Townie Role PM

Spoiler: Vanilla Townie Role PM

==================================

Spoiler: Mafia Prime-Number-Night Jailkeeper Role PM

Spoiler: Mafia Goon Role PM

Spoiler: Mafia Ninja Role PM

Spoiler: Mafia Goon Role PM

Spoiler: 1-shot BP Multitasking 2-shot Tracker Serial Killer Role PM

===========================

Three small new matters: Should the Hider be made into the more-common Weak Hider, which dies if it targets non-Town? Does a Loud role still inform the target if the user is roleblocked/jailkept? Should the activated BP Townie die if both the Mafia and SK target them on an activated night? Pending counsel by reviewers, I have written the role PMs as if the answer to both questions is 'No.'

Pine · Post Post #22 (ISO) » Sun May 13, 2018 6:38 pm

Thoughts on what to do if we end up with a 1:1:1 LYLO in which the Townie is lynched and the SK's bulletproof is spent?

Personally I'd be inclined to say they kill each other and no one wins.

ISO · Post Post #23 (ISO) » Mon May 14, 2018 1:49 pm

In post 21, Pine wrote:Three small new matters: Should the Hider be made into the more-common Weak Hider, which dies if it targets non-Town?

Okay so as the secondary reviewer I can't give an answer to

this

question unless Firebringer specifically defers to me, BUT, I believe I'm not overstepping my bounds as the secondary reviewer to answer these:

In post 21, Pine wrote: Does a Loud role still inform the target if the user is roleblocked/jailkept?

Think of a Loud modifier as being quite similar to something which can be Tracked: if a tracker tracking a player who is roleblocked sees the roleblocked player visit, this would be the way I'd handle the Loud and thus the player would be informed. However, this is I believe not the standard.

The standard, I am fairly certain, is that a tracker tracking a player who is roleblocked sees the roleblocked player visit nobody. As a consequence, a Loud player who is roleblocked will not have their target be informed of the visit because the visit never happened.

In post 21, Pine wrote:Should the activated BP Townie die if both the Mafia and SK target them on an activated night?

Since the Role PM as written specifies "all night kills", no.

Firebringer · Post Post #24 (ISO) » Tue May 15, 2018 3:11 pm

You need ot change the "Prime Number Jailkeeper" to something normal.
I suggested Novice Odd Night Jailkeeper (which i wouldn't be able to act night 2)