Mini Normal 2012: Tropical Mafia [Endgame]

[Havo]

VOTE: BBT

What up people’s.

[Havo]

no wagons yet? smh

VOTE: Invisibility

Good

Naked RVS makes me sad

Not good

Sho: Why do you think Rampage is scummier? The only suspicious thing I've noticed up until now is TBB's OMGUS vote.

Rampage's entrance has that trying-too-hard-scum-vibe.

Good - Maybe the thought of that early wagon had something to do with it?

My issue with 18 is he said he found the omgus suspicious but didn’t vote it.

Good

[Havo]

VOTE: invisibility

Let’s get to work

[Havo]

Ugh. I’ve been prodded. Sorry.

Will get caught up in a few.

[Havo]

Oh man.

Why have we got 3 splintered wagons?

[Havo]

Those who know me know how much I love Day 1s.

So much posturing going on.

Read this post:

I guess I prefer voting someone who didn't give us any information with his post.

Explains why I voted you instead of BBT.

what

JJD vs Shoshin is not SvS

Why is JJD town?

Did you just .com to bring scum here?

what?

what?

Why are we not lynching this?

[Havo]

@Havingfitz,

Is Shoshin town?

[Havo]

@Shoshin,

Who’s more town out of textcat, Jodaxq and Bacy?

[Havo]

@Shoshin,

Who’s more town out of textcat, Jodaxq and Bacy?

what are you hoping to get out of this question?

Insight

[Havo]

shoshin did provide reads though, three town reads. i don't know how sorting them helps him catch scum at this stage of the game, it mostly benefits scum
isn't a question like why is x town, why is y town....much more beneficial for town at this point than just sorting somebody's reads?

p-edit... yep. pretty much

The question is about Shoshin not about scum, unless of course Shoshin is scum.

[Havo]

Insight

What kind of insight? How would my answer affect your reads?

Because your answer helps me sort you. The question is about me sorting you without using my vote.

[Havo]

Insight

What kind of insight? How would my answer affect your reads?

Because your answer helps me sort you. The question is about me sorting you without using my vote.

sort how? example1 she says joda is more towny, example2 she says i'm more towny. what would change, how would a certain answer help you sort her?

I’ll explain to you how I play the game of mafia and develop town and scum reads if you want. Sure.

But it’ll have to wait til I’m on a laptop.

But the short answer is I read those slots quite differently atm and knowing how She reads them will help me decide if I want to hard town read her or not this early. Since I am already leaning town on her. I’m interested to see if she sees things the same way I do.

Now, why do you feel the need to hijack my line of questioning with her?

[Havo]

I don't really get the issue here. Forcing people to take a stance and put their opinions out there is kinda what you do in mafia.

agreed. It does strike me weird he is questioning somebody he town reads but it's not anything I haven't seen before.

I like to solidify town reads early if possible. If I can come out of Day 1 with 1 or 2 hard town reads I’m happy. So I like to question town reads as much as scum reads. I don’t usually find hard TRS Day 1.

I thought SS might fit the bill.

I don’t understand why this is concerning anyone tbh. It’s pretty standard practice in my opinion.

[Havo]

I’ll get caught up and post here in a few.

[Havo]

Invisibility, join me on Mumble!

you were literally voting me a few posts ago what

While pushing Fitz as scum.

I really dislike this, I push people all the time while voting someone else. And I hate when people tell me how to use my vote. Just because I'm voting someone doesn't even mean I think they're scum, it's usually to see their reaction to being voted. It helps me read them, and there's a lot of times I'll think someone else is scummier but I want to get the reaction from my vote before I move it.

And I'm not saying this is what Shoshin was doing, but I can see myself doing it pretty easy. I just don't like the push from Mumble.

[Havo]

VOTE: JJD
scummiest person right now for me

I don't like the way this feels, it may be a little nitpicky I admit, but it feels off to me.

[Havo]

Mumble, before I answer any more of your questions, why don't you tell us your thoughts on the game?

Good luck with that.

[Havo]

Garuga should not have claimed. Even though I was pushing his wagon it wasn't getting a lot of support so I was leaving it as well. Don't get his early (L-4?) claim.

Still like my vote from eod yesterday.

VOTE: Shoshin

v/LA till Tuesday morning

for holiday weekend in US.

I really don't like this. It's very active lurker-like.

Why vote now instead of waiting until you come back?

I agree, this is a Red Flag to me.
Why/How you gonna vote park this early on Day 2, after we had a quick hammer Day 1?

[Havo]

I would like to see more from Texcat and Gustavo.

I like the posts Bacy and Jodax have made and most of the posts BBT had made today.

I would support an Invisiblity lynch, I haven't like that slot from the get go tbh.
I woulnd't argue against a Mumble lynch either. Mumble is always a difficult read for me.

I think Shoshin is town fwiw. I don't like that wagon at all. HF i'm still null on. Really disliked the vote park.
It seemed very advantageous to me.

[Havo]

I would like to see more from Texcat and Gustavo.

What specifically do you need from me?

How do you see the game at this point?

Any strong reads?

Thoughts on Invisibility.

[Havo]

Invisibility, join me on Mumble!

you were literally voting me a few posts ago what

While pushing Fitz as scum.

I really dislike this, I push people all the time while voting someone else. And I hate when people tell me how to use my vote. Just because I'm voting someone doesn't even mean I think they're scum, it's usually to see their reaction to being voted. It helps me read them, and there's a lot of times I'll think someone else is scummier but I want to get the reaction from my vote before I move it.

And I'm not saying this is what Shoshin was doing, but I can see myself doing it pretty easy. I just don't like the push from Mumble.

You don't ever like anything that I do in any game whatsoever.

What you are saying is you don't like what I was pushing because you act a certain way, but Shoshin may or may not act that way meaning what I pushed could be valid, but you still don't like it because of the way you play. Yeah...ok.

It's bad that he was pushing Invis/Me/Fitz and then immediately asking Invis to get on my wagon.

Lighten up fuzzball.

I like it when you play. When you actually play. Like you’re doing now.

I understand your above retort, but I still don’t like it.

[Havo]

Skimming through. Some of my early reads are developing and some are changing. That’s good.

I’m taking off work tomorrow so I’ll get caught up and get involved.

[Havo]

Fuck it.

I'm claiming Town Loyal Fruit Vendor and I visited Shoshin last night. She should have received fruit from me but she is saying she has no idea of anything. My action only fails if I target scum. Or if I was role-blocked which is highly unlikely.

PEdit - It wasn't the claim Tex - it was the posting in general.

Where's the Scum motivation for this?

BBT is claiming a provable role. What are the odds he got roleblocked? If he's scum, then he plans on claiming Roleblocked from here on out?
Why make this play as scum this early when Invisibility is at L-1?

My read on BBT has been towny and hasn't really changed. I believe the claim. I don't see how or why he would do this as scum.

So that means............. Scum blocked him or he was possibly Jail kept by another towny or Shoshin is actually scum.

What other scenarios are there for Town BBT to get no result?

[Havo]

Okay, prior to BBT's claim.

The game state was really annoying with the arguing going on. I'm glad something has disrupted that tbh.

I'm leaning town on Mumble and my Shoshin read went from Almost Hard town on Day 1 to not so much throughout the day 2.

I still think Invisibility could easily flip scum, and most likely I would have hammered if that was still a possibility prior to BBT's claim.

[Havo]

All I know is I didn't receive a fruit and I'm town as fuck.

No, you're not.

BBT getting roleblocked makes a lot of sense with an Invisibility/Mumble team.

No, it doesn't. Why would scum with a RB roleblock an unknown slot versus a known PR? Makes no sense.

More likely, you are caught scum scrambling.

Is it possible BBT was Jailkept?

[Havo]

Is it possible BBT was Jailkept?

It's possible. That would make more sense than scum blocking him.

Now, what are the odds we have a JK and the JK chose BBT?

[Havo]

Well, I didn't receive any fruit. So you were role blocked or redirected or who knows?

Or he's scum?

Thoughts on 857

[Havo]

BBT is probably a scum PR that his action blocked.

Help me understand your line of thinking here.

You think BBT is a scum PR that is making a power move here?
So he incriminates Shoshin to get her lynched?

So he now thinks he can claim he is roleblocked the rest of the game?

This only makes sense if Invisibility is scum here, right? Cause other wise if he's scum and Invisibility is town, no need to make this push.

[Havo]

How could building a trusted town block town block be better than finding scum?

Like U target scumreads with it and then add them to the town block if u were wrong.

I see your point, but what is his endgame? what's his path to victory?

[Havo]

What JJD says makes sense.

BBT: Why did you target a top town read?

[Havo]

I’ll weigh in in a few. Family stuff going on right now.

[Havo]

VOTE: Havo

Havo's probably scum based on his response to BBT's claim as well as his overall lack of engagement with the game.

I'm not going to hold this against you, I want that noted so when I vote you no one can say it's an OMGUS vote.

And sure, go ahead and tell us who's the scum team. But even by some crazy chance you flip town, I'm not going to put a lot of stock in it.

It's looking like Mumble was right all along. I town read you early but it was based mainly on gut, your Day 2 was bad and only got worse the longer it went.

But just for giggles, can you explain how my response to BBT's claim means I'm scum?

[Havo]

Same goes to Havo and Fitz (while you voted Shoshin D1, you unvoted when the wagon started to grow), and bacy.

IDK about associations, it's tough because Shoshin has a thousand posts and a lot of them are walls of text, making it painful to read through them.

Off the top of my head I recall myself and Bacy somewhat defending her. I liked Bacy but they have tailed off a bit. And yes I haven't been uber active myself.

I'll go back and ISO Shoshin and see what I can see.

[Havo]

I'm not a VCA expert but here's some info.

Players voting Both Rampage and Invisibility -
Texcat, Bacy, BBT, Jodax/JJD, Shoshin

Players not voting either -
Gustavo, Havo

Mumble was on Rampage but not Invisibility, he was voting Shoshin at the lynch
HF was not on Rampage, he was voting Shoshin at lynch, He was on Invisibility.
JarJar was on Rampage, but was voting BBT when Invisibility was lynched.

Players voting Both Rampage and Invisibility and voted Shoshin early today -
Texcat and Judge Dread

I don't know how much this tells me, but I believe there's a very good chance that at least one of the players that voted both are scum, maybe two.
Without a scum flip I think VCA's are all but useless.

[Havo]

Why Havo?

Fuck it.

I'm claiming Town Loyal Fruit Vendor and I visited Shoshin last night. She should have received fruit from me but she is saying she has no idea of anything. My action only fails if I target scum. Or if I was role-blocked which is highly unlikely.

PEdit - It wasn't the claim Tex - it was the posting in general.

Where's the Scum motivation for this?

BBT is claiming a provable role. What are the odds he got roleblocked? If he's scum, then he plans on claiming Roleblocked from here on out?
Why make this play as scum this early when Invisibility is at L-1?

My read on BBT has been towny and hasn't really changed. I believe the claim. I don't see how or why he would do this as scum.

So that means.............

Scum blocked him

or he was

possibly

Jail kept by another towny or Shoshin is

actually

scum.

What other scenarios are there for Town BBT to get no result?

His initial reaction to this is to say that BBT is town, his claim is town, and that means there's three possibilities - that scum blocked him, that he was jailkept, or that I'm scum. But the first one he lists is that scum blocked him, and he qualifies both other options with "possibly" and "actually," suggesting he doesn't believe these possibilities as much as the first one. There's the scent of an informed perspective underlying this response.

Okay, prior to BBT's claim.

The game state was really annoying with the arguing going on. I'm glad something has disrupted that tbh.

I'm leaning town on Mumble and my Shoshin read went from Almost Hard town on Day 1 to not so much throughout the day 2.

I still think Invisibility could easily flip scum, and most likely I would have hammered if that was still a possibility prior to BBT's claim.

Then he opportunistically changes his reads precisely in the way scum would if they knew BBT and I were both town. So while earlier he was townreading me and willing to lynch Mumble, now he's town on Mumble and open to lynching me, as he knows I'm the obvious lynch when BBT flips town. But he still wants Invisibility lynched. This will be more apparent to you guys when I flip town.

All I know is I didn't receive a fruit and I'm town as fuck.

No, you're not.

BBT getting roleblocked makes a lot of sense with an Invisibility/Mumble team.

No, it doesn't. Why would scum with a RB roleblock an unknown slot versus a known PR? Makes no sense.

More likely, you are caught scum scrambling.

Is it possible BBT was Jailkept?

Really unnatural question to ask Mumble here. As if he knows I'm flipping town.

I'd lynch Havo on this basis alone, but if you look back at his posts throughout the game, they're pretty bad throughout.

So I'm scum because I looked for scum motivation in BBTs claim.
I'm scum because my reads progressed as the game went on.
I'm scum because I raised the possibility that BBT was JK'd.

So in your opinion, you'd lynch me based on the fact that I'm trying to solve the game?
It's cool thought, because when you flip scum this all goes out the window.

[Havo]

Jjd 2.0 is looking really bad when shoshin flips scum, and he will flip scum. I believe bacy and I’m still waiting on havo to answer my question. Havo could very easily be scum. Fitz worries me also.

Shaoshin is lock scum.

What question is that?

[Havo]

Actualllyyyy yeah, I might have to rethink havo after a flip

You should rethink everyone after a flip.

[Havo]

after we had a quick hammer Day 1?

1. that certainly wasn't a quick hammer so I am curious why you thought there was one? Shoshin said he would hammer, others were calling for hammers and one player asked for a self hammer.

2. aren't you the same person who made this post?

Doesn't havo do day one quickhammer thing

What happened to that

Are you an Alt?

Yes I will quick hammer Day 1 if I feel like it.

This makes me think you are ok with quick hammers...

That's not a question. I don't think it's a secret how I feel about Day 1's. Yes typically I'm more than fine with a quick lynch or hammer on Day 1. Unless I hard town read the person being run up. But that's not the issue I had with HF.

I agree with you that it wasn't a quick hammer, I should have said quick lynch as that's what I was getting at. Day 1 lasted a week not two. And it felt like a quick lynch to me, maybe because I hadn't been that active.

The issue I had with HF was he came in and vote parked, called V/LA and split. This after a quick lynch on Day 1. Not my idea of a towny move.

Now how about you answer my questin?

Are you an Alt?

[Havo]

No...you're are trying to muddy up the gamestate. That's why I want your lynch sooner rather than later.

I don't disagree with this.

VOTE: ShoShin

[Havo]

Yeah your stance seems off to me and it wasn’t even a quick lynch. When people are calling for the day to end, that’s not q quick lynch. And using the timing of somebody’s v/la is just low. People can’t control when they are busy.

I don’t remember you asking me this before but yes I am an alt, I quit a few years ago for “reasons”. I came back to give it another go but not having positive experiences this far.

I said vote parking then going V/LA. Why vote and then go V/LA?
Anything inside of 10 days on this site is a quick lynch.

[Havo]

Yeah your stance seems off to me and it wasn’t even a quick lynch. When people are calling for the day to end, that’s not q quick lynch. And using the timing of somebody’s v/la is just low. People can’t control when they are busy.

I don’t remember you asking me this before but yes I am an alt, I quit a few years ago for “reasons”. I came back to give it another go but not having positive experiences this far.

What was your other user names?

[Havo]

What was your other user names?

Irrelevant. Have anything game related to ask?

So you have an issue with me checking your past games?

You obviously checked mine. Just trying to level the playing field.

[Havo]

Leaning Havo or Dredd right now.

Leaning Mumble or Bacy right now.

[Havo]

Leaning Havo or Dredd right now.

Leaning Mumble or Bacy right now.

This was a reaction test for you. I still don’t have a good read on you and I’m afraid I’ll never get there.

[Havo]

Is it time for a mass claim?

Most definitely.

I’ll gladly start.

VT.

[Havo]

Is it time for a mass claim?

This is blatant PR hunting IMHO.

Uh.... dude, it’s most likely LYLO.

[Havo]

Is it time for a mass claim?

This is blatant PR hunting IMHO.

Uh.... dude, it’s most likely LYLO.

You need to answer my questions. A "reaction test" is not an answer. There is no way you do not have an opinion on my slot at this point, and to continue to claim so (after a town read yesterday) in LyLo is a scumclaim.

Answer my questions in your next post, or I will vote you and see what happens.

I don’t do threats. Vote me. I dare you too.

[Havo]

Take your vote off Mumble.

Dear god I'm about done with this site.

[Havo]

IN the name of team play, I'll answer your questions in a few, helping my son with something atm.

[Havo]

Invisibility, join me on Mumble!

you were literally voting me a few posts ago what

While pushing Fitz as scum.

I really dislike this, I push people all the time while voting someone else. And I hate when people tell me how to use my vote. Just because I'm voting someone doesn't even mean I think they're scum, it's usually to see their reaction to being voted. It helps me read them, and there's a lot of times I'll think someone else is scummier but I want to get the reaction from my vote before I move it.

And I'm not saying this is what Shoshin was doing, but I can see myself doing it pretty easy. I just don't like the push from Mumble.

I'm a scumread.

Nope, just said I didn't like the push

I
I woulnd't argue against a Mumble lynch either. Mumble is always a difficult read for me.

I'm a scumread

Nope, just saying I wouldn't oppose your lynch because I have a hard time reading you.

I'm leaning town on Mumble and my Shoshin read went from Almost Hard town on Day 1 to not so much throughout the day 2.

Why did I change to a townread?

My read on Shoshin changed due to her bad posts, thus made me give you more credit since you had been hard pushing her, so yeah, I started leaning town on you.

All I know is I didn't receive a fruit and I'm town as fuck.

No, you're not.

BBT getting roleblocked makes a lot of sense with an Invisibility/Mumble team.

No, it doesn't. Why would scum with a RB roleblock an unknown slot versus a known PR? Makes no sense.

More likely, you are caught scum scrambling.

Is it possible BBT was Jailkept?

Why ask me this specifically, and not that BBT was Roleblocked?

No one had mentioned JK, and you were present and in discussion mode, so I wanted to engage you and get your opinion.

VOTE: Havo

Havo's probably scum based on his response to BBT's claim as well as his overall lack of engagement with the game.

I'm not going to hold this against you, I want that noted so when I vote you no one can say it's an OMGUS vote.

And sure, go ahead and tell us who's the scum team. But even by some crazy chance you flip town, I'm not going to put a lot of stock in it.

It's looking like Mumble was right all along. I town read you early but it was based mainly on gut, your Day 2 was bad and only got worse the longer it went.

But just for giggles, can you explain how my response to BBT's claim means I'm scum?

Still pushing the scum!Shoshin...meaning I'm still town.

No...you're are trying to muddy up the gamestate. That's why I want your lynch sooner rather than later.

I don't disagree with this.

VOTE: ShoShin

Still agreeing with me.

So, why am I now scum and not town who was wrong? BBT was town who hardpushed two town slots as scum.

Explain your swap on me, and why I am now scum.

Reaction test, pure and simple, you've actually backed it up for me.
I think you are most likely town yes. Thus I'm answering your questions.

[Havo]

damn, screwed that up.

[Havo]

1 - Nope, just saying I didn't like the push
2 - Nope, Just saying I wouldn't fight a Mumble lynch because you're a tough read for me.
3 - The more Shoshin posted the worse she looked, so I started to come around that you were probably onto something with here. So yeah, I started to give you town cred
4 - No one had brought up JK, and you were online discussing possibilities. I wanted your opinion on it.

[Havo]

Still readable. Thank you.

Your thoughts on Texcat and Dredd?

I could easily see Texcat being scum, Dredd I give a lot more town cred too because of Jodax play.

Tex hasn't done anything that I remember, I have to look through his ISO to even remember he's in the game.
Dredd seems to be a bit non chalant, but I'm not familiar with his play.

[Havo]

I like the play of Gus, or at least he's shown some passion

HF I'm not sure on.

I want to go back and ISO a few players, should be able to tomorrow.

[Havo]

Still readable. Thank you.

Your thoughts on Texcat and Dredd?

How do you see HF?

[Havo]

i think we should be lynching in havingfitz/havo/judge today

So I assume you're town reading Texcat?

and the ones not on that list?

[Havo]

I'm like 95% sure that Shoshin is flipping scum here though.

Invisibilities posting around his lynch makes me think he is town.

VOTE: Invisibility

LOL. That's bloody messed up indeed! So, he has a guilty through his own action but is using someone else's posting to force a reversal on his read from 95% scum to town??

VOTE: BBT

P-edit: @BBT: What good are night actions then? You could -at least- try to figure out what happened, but you're ignoring the whole thing.

JJD and Dread works for me.

Now Vote Invisibility. Thanks.

Fine

VOTE: Invis

From my own PoV, if this flips Scum both BBT and Shoshin are less likely scum, but according to JarJar all 3 could be scum (so it doesn't mater which of them we lynch).

BBT claimed Loyal Fruit Vendor and claims to have given Shoshin fruit which Shoshin says she didn't receive.

So Shoshin is guilty or BBT got blocked. Which is more likely? Has BBT been solidly present on D1?

Doesn't even consider that BBT could be scum.

Did I really not say anything? Maybe I had the conversation in my head and not in thread?

Scum!BBT faking a guilty through a fruit vendor role is ridiculous. HE WOULD HAVE HAD TO PROVE HIS ROLE THE NEXT NIGHT OR GET LYNCHED.

So, it the ONLY way BBT could have been scum is WITH SHOSHIN. Now why would SHOSHIN DENY RECEIVING FRUIT in that situation? It implicated at least one of the two. No too bright a move either.

However, Shoshin could be scum with Town!BBT. Either that or BBT GOT ROLEBLOCKED.

If you can't go threw this very simple logic then I don't know what to say to you.

This series of posts concern me about Dredd.

comes across to me as a bit aloof, that's what I meant by Non Chalant. (I need to learn the spelling for that)
I'm not familiar with his play style. I could see it as him being less invested since he replaced in.

[Havo]

How about that mass claim?

Anyone want to argue against it?

[Havo]

@Fitz

My read on Mumble is nothing complicated. I’ve played a handful of games with Mumble. And in those games he’s usually been inactive or not quite what I would call active. When he’s inactive I tend to lean scum on him just because I know I’m gonna have a hard time reading him. One of those games he was scum and the rest he was town best I recall. I’ve seen him be active and play and when he does he’s a good player IMO. I like playing with him when he plays. And yeah I understand life can get busy. At the start of this game I felt like it was inactive Mumble and I was gonna have the same hard time reading him. I didn’t like his early push on Shoshin and his overall day 1 play was nothing significantly towny. But the more he pushed her the worse she started to look, and I started to agree with his pushing. I get a lot of my reads by watching reaction to pressure. And even tho Shoshin was town I felt like Mumble pushing her was justifiable. He’s been much more assertive this game and I like his play to start this day also.

[Havo]

ROFL. 24 hours and we have one new post?? OMG! *Sigh*

This has turned into the mafia game no one wanted to play in. lol

[Havo]

VOTE: texcat

I believe we are all in agreement and Tex is my top scum read.

[Havo]

Yay. Gg.

[Havo]

It's so ridiculously hard to lynch lurkers on this site though.

Site meta has to change.

I do agree with this. I used to play on a site that always lynched lurkers day 1. Town won more than scum.

This. If you don’t like lurkers and inactives you HAVE to policy lynch.

After a few months you want need too anymore.

Same with Lynch all Liars.

[Havo]

I’ve only played 20 or so games here. But the one thing that jumped out at me early is that on this site town rarely plays as a team. Towns here have a habit of destroying each other. So I definitely let that play out. Just set back and watch it burn. Lol.