Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Bernie Sanders]

mathdino you MFer I had to stop myself from actually getting into this bernie bro shit mad bait I was flooding tabs with news articles open and was going to get into polls and shit

I just finish binge watching the Wire s4 and you slap me right across the face with this where I least expect it

forget the game for a moment I WILL get you back on this one day somehow

[Bernie Sanders]

skitter's better than shoshin from their exchange IMO

Re shoshin you said you had caught scum via rvs in comparable votes can you link/reference?

[Bernie Sanders]

Eh sho to math looked overdefensive but actually that is kind of a discredit. otoh not brought up unsolicited but as a response its too plausible to really be a lead

sho is probably actually cool

nauci maybe just doing busywork?

[Bernie Sanders]

stungun feels a bit rattled

gemini feels like really bland boring scum

irrelephant is spicy I like that spirit

[Bernie Sanders]

eh fuck it

VOTE: stungun

[Bernie Sanders]

The shame is it's too soon for the best wagon we could actually do

[Bernie Sanders]

You'll know it when it happens but right now I could be talking about a policy lynch on mathdino for all you and I know

Wouldn't want to give anyone a spook now would we?

[Bernie Sanders]

If you plan on bailing on this wagon overnight please let me know now btw I'm going to bed soon.

[Bernie Sanders]

Eh can't even bullshit being interested on this

VOTE: invisibility

dis that wishy washy shit clear up misunderstandings be all interested but no bite

[Bernie Sanders]

that latter referring to my man the blue pokemon

[Bernie Sanders]

wait actually im feeling kinda paranoid and i dont think im ready to townread shosh

can you go into this

[Bernie Sanders]

tbh invis judgments arent bad but he reads storytelling-y and kinda self conscious

[Bernie Sanders]

I’m kinda feeling worse on stun/Nauci/Mom/invis for their “lynch the lurker” votes like 48 hours into a game on the weekend

mmm stun and invis are more slated as pressure vs momr and nauci being more of a vote vote
I think stun's is actually okay and nauci's as worse in this respect than the rest, though not sure yet wrt invis and momr though (gemini was my other name to invis I had thought of)

[Bernie Sanders]

FTR just because of timing I'd go as far as to put .70 odds on that replace being influenced by the one off vote by invis, though not to speak to anything wrt AI ness as of quite yet (does suggest anti-assoc)

[Bernie Sanders]

FTR just because of timing

since it probably get asked anyways the reason I'd spec this is brass posted this morning already without mention and brought up the replace now suggesting it was recent and I so think presumably after a read (distinction being one brought up last last night or by brass otherwise) though maybe is reading too much into it. my impression if you're just generally fed up or busy/no motivation you usually do it either end of night or when you remember in the morning and there's still decent odds of it being latter by chance but my gut is its a read first and then a I'm not feeling this (though even then I guess town still have that response too much for it to really count)

[Bernie Sanders]

stungun is legit btw he pretty much all by himself came to very similar thought process on NSG that mathdino had in another game

[Bernie Sanders]

I'm honestly kinda wanting to kick back this game ngl, maybe I'll get solvy later but for now I just wanna smell the roses. It's my first full game back ya know.

you too gamma?
Well I was thinking of maybe just jumping on you old times sakes but I guess you can take it easy for now

[Bernie Sanders]

actually naucis not bad despite what I said earlier

curious now as to reads from skitter NSG and math (is this the clique?)

Also math if you keep rhyming I will actually start to hold it against you (Yeah I know I'm no fun)

[Bernie Sanders]

wait actually im feeling kinda paranoid and i dont think im ready to townread shosh

can you go into this

i dont see how

yeah I want you to go into that a bit more

your history weighing into that at all?

[Bernie Sanders]

well well well if it isnt the worst replacement

[Bernie Sanders]

but seriously you can't just come in all naked (vote) like that it's just bad form

why should key be 100% full quick powerlynched from space as you obviously imply?

[Bernie Sanders]

good to be here

are you town bernie?

For better or worse

you know I wonder why you replace here when you couldve just queued it

better chance you'd be town too than this gemini mess too yknow

[Bernie Sanders]

keysors okay for now and might actually have a lead with skitter so onus is on you

I think I might(?) have had an ancient keysor tell/spec written down I might look into later

[Bernie Sanders]

I wanted to work in the worst pun harder there but it didnt quite fit :/

TW who if anyone here do you have a history of being able to reliably read btw?

[Bernie Sanders]

hmmm

NGL I feel a bit of awkwardness from this whole thing but I'm wondering if maybe that's partly my fault

[Bernie Sanders]

Mr. Söze pinged me during catchup I'll calibrate my reads a bit better then see if I feel like lobbying for his lynch

what is the strength of your read roughly, like 0% being null and 100% being cop cleared

haven't really looked into him (or most people) as of yet tbh but he's been working along what I like to see for now
you catch up and I hear NSG more invis more skitter and maybe even some gamma and I'll do a second pass on people who seem okay-for-now if nothing terribly intriguing comes up

[Bernie Sanders]

out of curiosity can you remember what pinged you?

[Bernie Sanders]

nauci who would you look at if you ignored gamma for a second?
he can take some time to warm up tbh

[Bernie Sanders]

Bernie I appreciate you wanting lurkers to not lurk but I find it hard to believe you think everyone who’s posted regularly reads town

Like just the plausibility that the scumteam is all lurkers atm is <1%

ehhh I wouldn't go that far some people are definitely better than others atm and this is pretty good all things considered for this early
I should make a thread sometime with my main on my philosophy wrt earlygame approach though

[Bernie Sanders]

someone else can probably tell you it ruins the fun if I self out

[Bernie Sanders]

@Irrelephant
in the most general sense I'm more interested in {invis, TW, skitter, NSG, nauci and momr} than the rest here, though that's putting GE and math both completely aside for a bit (not that they aren't okay but)
I had floated joining skitter or nauci though as-is they're already kind of obligated to respond to the pressure on them and I'd rather wait and see a bit with that and the next round than half-hearted (and skitter seems just gone via vla anyways)

re: content focus it's true multiple scum lurkers are unlikely but I find clearing up those slots helps me anyways even if town; I generally operate in reverse with "who do I have the least reasons to think is town this game" and so it rounding out the list does help me a lot (in similar vein it suffers more in situations and playerlists where that can't be done). Hard scum motivation is easier with flips and associations otoh though re d2.

[Bernie Sanders]

as a side note I also think d1 is the "play not-to-lose" Day where as long as you don't do something very stupid like run up everyones claims, do get a ton of commitment/stances down from everyone on everything, and lynch a mixture of the scummiest of the low/moderate-value/ lowest value of the scummiest you have a decent start and are well set up

[Bernie Sanders]

Even if you don't like the way Invis posts, 158, 168, and 169 should clear him. I highly doubt he'd make either of these as scum.

why exactly for the record?
I'm only saying this because it reminds me of when I townread lovebird one time for somewhat comparable townread/paranoia/elsewhere progression (except it was harder; my thought was why bother faking that strange progression?)

[Bernie Sanders]

I have seen some shit, man.

[Bernie Sanders]

zzzzzzz
unfortunately research shows invis is kinda mad lynchbait, though I think he might still end up being scum regardless (and it is the case that I've a few times psyched myself to be overly wary of scum on such concerns)

@Mod

can you prod NSG please

[Bernie Sanders]

VOTE: Mathdino

This may be absolutely crazy but mathdino here isn't at all like what I thought I'd see
now, my experience reading mathdino has been generally to copy his meta reads on other people or see how he'd townlead rather than look at his own play for tells and I think the only scumgame I remember was in one of the neighbour themed games (with lovebird and some others?)
but I still feel like he doesn't have any fire in him here so to speak, if that makes any sense
Granted it's also possible it may just be too early and I was going to just give benefit-of-doubt/space but I'm actually not finding most other leads that promising here
it's also possible the gimmick is hiding or preventing mathdino and throwing things off, but even in that case I'd still be happy to have it end anyways

[Bernie Sanders]

Also @@@Mathdino I want thoughts on TW when you get here

[Bernie Sanders]

Go ahead, I essentially talked about joining it on my main so it's essentially an open secret anyways

[Bernie Sanders]

Thanks for your reply. I am sorry but I have this uneasy feeling that you were attacking things (or being overly concerned) for surface level entanglements/contradictions. I have seen scum spend their time posting about such contradictions

instead

of having a more measured approach of meditating about the motivation of the player/could a town player have said this?/asking yourself ‘is this a rational stance to have if I were in their shoes?’

This is probtown now FTR

[Bernie Sanders]

Nah, also doesn't A50 setup spec like a mofo?
Eh tbh I don't think you had a chance to guess to begin with, I actually don't think we played before

[Bernie Sanders]

Gamma emerald you've had to like osmosis absorb at least something of what's going on by now with how much you're reading

[Bernie Sanders]

@The game
not the alt tangent

[Bernie Sanders]

you have to earn the right to fluff talk first.

[Bernie Sanders]

Gamma I'll offer you a position as my honorary second vote on math if you want

but really what do you think? I know you read both it and math posts if you've read skitters walls

[Bernie Sanders]

Zzzz meta manipulation phoneposting and hard I wouldn't do this gimmick as scum wifom

[Bernie Sanders]

Meh 2 of those are probably admittedly true (assuming meta was thought of pre-role pm anyways) though I do wonder as to the odds something like that gets dropped or maintained on red

[Bernie Sanders]

Math forget gem what about TW?

[Bernie Sanders]

the unfortunate thing is even if true the implications of wanting to establish a meta of rhyming like this every game are profoundly horrifying

[Bernie Sanders]

Mmm to reiterate gimmick is again a minor point (format) and it's direction/impact that stand out here

@math can you elaborate WRT 201
to be clear nauci NSG and irrelephant you're waiting on more sample size here? my impression is skitter posts since then probably give enough to go off of

would you put TW in this list as someone obvtown as town?

[Bernie Sanders]

my post on him

[Bernie Sanders]

ftr just to be clear was irrelephant = ran implying hes an alt (of idk ranmaru?)

[Bernie Sanders]

inb4 nsg momrangal invis scum with the hard dodge prodge d1 uber strats

[Bernie Sanders]

that's kind of a joke the odds there are realistically very low and not really to the point of being worth considering

you okay with maths response? for the most part he's already committed to giving more in a short timeframe and I can see some viability but I don't really like his goto being so wifomy/selfmetay and like defending with the gimmick

[Bernie Sanders]

Ok so I have a weird hang up this game
TW is voting momrangal
momrangal is voting invisibility
invisibility voted gemini/TW
strong odds on at least a scum is in this grouping but guess wrong and probably instead detracts from town who is pushing scum (though tbf there's not much pressure from any of these which maybe again loops back to the read to begin with)

math voting nauci because nauci should be more obvtown as town
nauci I'm floating though even as gamma vote read lazy pressure on gamma isn't really the worst thing in the world

essentially people are more pro-town than usual e.g. nobody iirc is pushing my better townreads (at least then you can more comfortably spec scum motivation) at least based on where I'm sitting and ehhhh
possibly this may imply 1 sided distancing (as opposed to 2way which I think is more common) or a misread elsewhere though not necessarily

ultimately it's possible this is completely nothing or a red herring though

[Bernie Sanders]

Bernie, why do you think Nauci is town?

Actually I second guessed that though I could say why initially

it might just be approaching time to compromise to get something going but I do feel like there's potentially something to math here, and at very least warrants a stance out from most at minimum

[Bernie Sanders]

Let's play a group game

Divide game by as such
A{Mathdino Irrelephant11 skitter30 Shoshin Bernie Sanders the worst stungun0404 Keyser Soze}
B{Nauci Momrangal Invisibility northsidegal Gamma Emerald}
arbitrary but mostly by content, tbh

you have to shoot 1 in each group right now, Who?
In A I'd probably shoot TW despite what I've said on math as there is tbf an element of burden of proficiency wrt math/possible downisde (though he'd be my second); otoh this being mostly from gemini on the TW slot and tw cant really ever answer to anything there beyond getting to present himself when all up to speed
In B it's tricky given it's mostly good names but I'd still edge it out to invisibility given there's still enough sample size there IMO and he does just kinda feel fake with his game interest

[Bernie Sanders]

Mmm @gamma or otherwise you can me I guess as it is kind of getting distracting

the irony is people will see my classic lovely signature note on meta I reinstated when the normal filled

[Bernie Sanders]

*out me

[Bernie Sanders]

>_>

TW or Mathdino?

[Bernie Sanders]

also
"Regrettably I don't have time right now to look through ISOs"
*posts memes*

[Bernie Sanders]

Keyser if you put your sus on me aside for the moment who do you think is scum?

[Bernie Sanders]

I'd normally assume still skitter but I'd have some trouble following that now

[Bernie Sanders]

Yeah that's usually that's not other peoples take so I translate

[Bernie Sanders]

Mmm I feel like there's hidden subtext with me and TW here imo

We talked a bit previous to him surprise-replacing into this on like our game approaches and even a bit on our town/scumgames (like general tell kind of thing)

I didn't think he'd replace into this game but what I gave was more or less accurate and does fit IMO so my impression is he'd almost have to go against the grain to justify a scumread on me (I'd maybe even considering outing what I said but it'd be like super ultra memey now to say that like say why people scumreads me this game are towntells and stuff like that)

there is an element that if scum he kind of replaced into a bad spot and it'd maybe be more in his interests to try to get me onside or at very least not antagonise me (and it is possible to some extent it might even be working)
but again I'd more or less expect that read from town as well

of course that's assuming he knows my main which he really probably should but if not then now definitely

[Bernie Sanders]

*lotsa hidden

[Bernie Sanders]

The problem with TW is mostly on gemini but I havent really been impressed with his direction since replace though it is still pretty soon
we had to kind of fish the keysor vote reasoning out of him (eh) and mom pressurevote is kinda whatever and doesn't reveal much

[Bernie Sanders]

@BS: rask?

Now, I'm not saying that's true but if it was finally. Kinda surprised gamma or otherwise didn't get guess there and you end up being the one to

Finally Re: all meta requests -> search list, wiki has organised game chart Bon Appetit

pedit HMMMM

[Bernie Sanders]

mmm irrelephants quick turn off keysor is odd because it seemed like a vote he was good with so even if stungun protested to go from it to skitter doesnt feel right

it reminds me too that skitter had a showing where they came back with a fair bit of content and I was thinking how irrelephant and keysor would react, keysor did but irrelephant didn't analyse or react and the vote for pressure in that context doesn't make sense either

But oh I thought tw was still voting him. It’s boring being the only vote for him rn so I’ll go back to VOTE: skitter because I feel confident town can pressure nsg and any other lurkers without me and I want more from skit

also minor point but feels kinda overjustified

idk about the turn to nauci yet

[Bernie Sanders]

Maybe just me but TW comes off cagey in exchange w/ keysor page 18 19
as in acting more casual or relaxed than I feel like he really is if that makes any sense? granted this is tone spec and I'd like people more familiar with TW to comment
its mostly this kind of feeling I've gotten post replace that makes me not comfortable but I'd want more cross reference regarding this

still catching

[Bernie Sanders]

mmm irrelephants quick turn off keysor is odd because it seemed like a vote he was good with so even if stungun protested to go from it to skitter doesnt feel right

Quick turns are a towntell, don't get all confused
Read TM White Flag, you might be amused

quick turns are nothing in a vaccuum but suggest that the original read is not something one is all that comfortable with

quick turn from say a vote one justifiably is mixed on or feels weakly about onto a personal favoured vote is justifyable progression

however this turn being from what looked like a solid vote he felt good about onto a skitter pressure vote when im not sure it made sense (and I dont think he commented on the skitter return where she posted all reads and had exc with math and kinda me? which Id expect for interest in the slot) is a bit different and doesnt really make sense to me

[Bernie Sanders]

Stun-town
Keys???town

Mathprobtown but I'm probably gonna flip back and forth there
Gamma??? Worth looking into

Elephant???town
Nanci???
Sho???
Skit???

DUCCKKKKYYYYYY!!!!if scum, never playing with Gemini again

NSG??
Bernie???town

Mentally I'm on page 9, but I don't know invisibilitys meta. I've never played and I pulled something I thought was scummy and rolled with it. I know you touched on it once but like, even if it is his meta whats stopping him from being scum here? If it's his meta it should be NAI and you shouldn't be town reading him off that.

not much a fan of the bolded here (stances that are not really stances)
also sitting on a read people are hard saying is stylistic should eventually spur something as well rather than sitting too long which
A) do check it, if you disagree with conclusions you can argue that point
B) sort people saying this thing and try to ascertain their level of judgment: keysor IIRC had this approach
C) temporarily prioritize
though maybe strike that as she did seem to do b c after caught up fully

[Bernie Sanders]

Keyser if you put your sus on me aside for the moment who do you think is scum?

I kinda question the motive of this type of post: it reads like trying to subtly make someone drop the read they're being told to set aside

HMM didnt we go through this in clownspiracy

[Bernie Sanders]

duckling last now?
This late shift doesn't look good for you now...

I think she's had fair bit of progression up to justify this tbh

[Bernie Sanders]

Re: NSG
If she stayed I believe it would probably have been best to wagon her when she had substance to pressure off of and make her defend her reads when given, this being from that game where mathdino had replaced in and read her as such, granted even if she'd be wary of it as a judgment from math again (unless S-S which is possible too), from someone unexpected and as a surprise it'd still have been worth a shake
however pure inactivity is NAI OTOH: my last experience with her was in clownspiracy where she replaced into one of my locktowns and hard lurked the game, she didn't even catch up before she died (ironically I think mostly because of the strong townread and harddefending I had done on her slot predecessor)
and in general pressuring on pure inactivity tends to make people just replace out if they arent already going to
so basically tldr imo it's NAI unlike say maybe gemini replace

[Bernie Sanders]

also shoshin, you trying to call the scumteam D1 reads as scummy and is my least fav thing you've done this game

I think playing with you I'll just always get hot flashes of paranoia, won't I

Like what if you're buddying me and really good at it
Oh well. It's honestly fine for now if it's true
Consider me buddied, we're buddies now. Buddied up from now till lylo see you then <3

latter part of this reads fake to me

[Bernie Sanders]

scum gamma is starting to be possible given he still hasnt dropped the tells I expect

[Bernie Sanders]

VOTE: The worst

I want this wagon the most ATM
In addition to the tonal stuff (411 409 599) and gemini's replace timing I haven't seen a clear direction TW is taking with his progression this game
in other words despite his presence I'm not sure he's trying to work towards anything and I'd expect for example him to have followed up momrangal vote a bit by now if that was what he was interested in

I'm townreading skitter as well and she comes to similar judgment on TW with some experience, mathdino seemed more inconclusive (and math align itself I can see going either way)

[Bernie Sanders]

furthermore I get the feeling TW/gemini slot has gotten less attention/interest proportionately I'd expect here if that makes sense, given people's expressed concern/stances, though admittedly that may be confbiasy

[Bernie Sanders]

@Bernie

haha okay
that's sort of a continuation/joking about the last game we were in together, just me having fun

You seem to think some of my posting is "fake" but haven't said if you scumread it or not. Are you waiting for someone else to do that for you?

No, I liked you earlier but the vote thing was weird enough to comment. Your response there reads genuine enough though
Mmm I just kinda get a pocketing vibe there but on ISO I guess you have been thinking of shoshin enough to make that reaction plausible

You are right in that I'm wondering if I might've given someone a pass too early here

[Bernie Sanders]

TW who do you think is scum?
if deadline was right now I want some names of who would you lynch and in what order

also interested in your momrangal read, I read it you saying she's NAI and voting my impression was as pressure but then she did content and I haven't seen you respond/update there

[Bernie Sanders]

Okay... I didn’t actually say or suggest that but okay.

No but that basis speaks to "You seem to think some of my posting is "fake" but haven't said if you scumread it or not."

[Bernie Sanders]

[*]

Mathdino

• I have a slightly town lean on Math atm. Was being overly difficult to read earlier, but has made an effort to be less absurdist just to rhyme. I'm willing to give Math room to get more involved, because tossing out a bunch of town reads is pretty town!math

eh throwing out townreads is really easy and doesn't commit to anything like scumreads would
I was expecting going into the game to see a lot from mathdino on the people he played with previous here to really analyse but as of yet it's some kinda boring statements and not so much stances or analysis on their alignments here

[Bernie Sanders]

Though that ever promised desktopdino catchup should be tomorrow!

[Bernie Sanders]

@Irrelephant and others
How aggressive or confident can nauci scum be?
704 reads as a genuine push to me where nauci does believe irrelephant may be scum rather than trying to make him look bad for call him "scummy" (there is a distinction)
Furthermore there is an element of confidence I'm getting there which most scum usually do not exude and IIRC nauci was described as a casual or avoid attention scum player earlier

[Bernie Sanders]

Reading the worst in 1870 does a ton of heavy lifting for the game even super early and does a ton of just picking at things in general (in a useful way). Highlight this as well on what he says his approach would be if not much in scumreads which hasn't really happened either, mostly other people have been engaging him not other way around

Now OTOH sharing is caring scum TW still does seem to throw some votes around more (suggesting TW is just less interested here even compared to say his scum games) though his play is a lot more fluffy and there's less focus with his pokes (it reads more random which is what this game feels like).

In Pick your power as town again I see a lot more focus and direction in TW. I get the impression that while TW has some fluff or fun in games it's more balanced as town whereas here it dominates and I'm left wondering what he's doing or trying to accomplish

RE: Low interest
TW has claimed very low interest in this game and this is just almost certainly the case regardless of his alignment. However speculation as to why TW is not interested here is relevant IMO

A) replaced into scumread slot as town and not feeling it
I know this can be a thing that happens but this is exactly why I try to avoid immediate harsh pressure/judgment on replacement slots in general. But I've held out, I don't think TW was given that much of a hard time on replace, and I think he got a fair whack of time to get comfortable but still didn't really impress with it. If anyone thinks I'm being way off base with this judgment of the situation please say so but I feeling like I've been pretty charitable here and not confbias

B) replaced into scumread slot as scum and the "dead inside over it" tell
My impression is scum generally have a lot worse time dealing with replacing into bad situations exactly because they're overly self conscious about it and they feel the case against them as worse than it may actually look (because if scum they know what is likely-but-uncertain evidence to others is actually true and so the case is more solid from that viewpoint). I had a game that really highlighted to me here where I thought transcend had an okay chance of defending and there were other viable lynches but he acted very uncharacteristically defeated because of the situation he found himself, to the point where I wondered why he replaced in at all if not to play. Granted that's more extreme a situation than here and there also were PRs involved which did make the game very unlikely for him though he could've easily still survived that given day

Didn't think this would get this long. Again, very interested to hear cross reference with people with experience, atm skitter and nauci if anything have a similar take and others (@@@Mathdino) IIRC haven't spoken up much yet. I may have missed something though so please highlight it if so.

[Bernie Sanders]

Granted all that said it is still possible I'm looking too much into this; I can see for ex: with my focus on TW and math an invisibility or maybe even momrangal scum (would be weird association though) skating by at this point
I don't really see the case for nauci and TBH it may be early to say but I'm feeling like best

husbando

lynch today is probably going to be between TW and invis barring more information coming up

[Bernie Sanders]

Keyser if you put your sus on me aside for the moment who do you think is scum?

I kinda question the motive of this type of post: it reads like trying to subtly make someone drop the read they're being told to set aside

HMM didnt we go through this in clownspiracy

Don't recall that, please point it out?

Wasn't that like all of our exchange for that latter entire day

that and me pleading to put aside the D1 associations

[Bernie Sanders]

I have multiple townreads but no scumreads
gonna re-read the people with wagons on em, but later cos I'm gonna watch anime for a bit

I mean you could sheep

[Bernie Sanders]

Math what's your read on invis BTW

[Bernie Sanders]

@Bernie Sanders - I think you're gonna have to sit me down and talk through the player list with me. I am convinced you've been holding back strategically (scum motivation). Soft-footing around. You're still a

scum lean

.

Feel free to ask any specific questions but I can't really say anything as to you having a problem with my approach in general, which I'd agree with. Strategic is extremely fitting.

[Bernie Sanders]

Please please promise me when you get to desktop and do like ISO walls (which I think is what you promised) they won't also all be rhyming as well

[Bernie Sanders]

Minor note but gammas nonchalance is potentially indicative if scum that partner(s) aren't under pressure (e.g. probably not TW). FTR I'm assuming 10:3 for now though I realise it's theme queue.

[Bernie Sanders]

I think I had a harder time participating in my last game because I was scum, even though I was pretty enthusiastic about the game as a whole (see scum PT spam). I didn't make my giant catch up post in time despite writing up 1400 words in a .txt (which is why I portioned it out here as I went instead of waiting until fully caught up), and got replaced out because AFK. Brass subbed into my slot and also got hit with the apathy hammer even though I've seen him pull off some fantastic posting as town, so I suspect that it affected him. Quick picked it up last and didn't even read the game/try much and I suspect because he also felt defeated about being scum but also that being lower activity actively helped the slot a lot.

It's anecdata but lends the theory credibility, IMO.

Mmm I don't doubt the theory it's just always a case of how much it applies specifically (I can almost guarantee the trend on average but on the individual level there's so many extra variables)

[Bernie Sanders]

I'd look to invisibility, also maybe gamma or even the NSG slot (mostly on a poe basis).

I think if you're town you should try to talk about or case who you think is most likely scum here and convince or work us through your thoughts rather than why people should stop focusing on you.

[Bernie Sanders]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10253726
OMFG I just have to say this is the best hammer I've ever seen

[Bernie Sanders]

later stungun

I kinda started ignoring you at some point but want to say I think you did good here by making yourself extremely readable I think (assuming I've not made what would have be a catastrophic miscalculation but even that would be something to congratulate from you), ideally now we just need a nachomamma or RC to get in the slot for the ultimate mecha combination... (not NSGs slot though god forbid)

[Bernie Sanders]

Man TW you're like definition active lurking

Do you really think nauci is scum here?

can you summarize why?

[Bernie Sanders]

I mean I'm telling you that if you're town (and possibly just regardless) I'd probably look to invis or gamma if you have no idea where to start

IDK what you're trying to do at all

not scumhunting individually but I also don't think looking at what townreads are saying or even like mathdino (who I'd assume his reads should be very interesting for you even if scumspect)

I just don't know what by what process you got to your given reads or pretty much anything i can really try to follow or gauge

[Bernie Sanders]

I don't really understand the thought process by which someone doesn't read pages but refreshes and keeps interest in the thread
if you're scum okay reading doesn't actually matter but if town idk

[Bernie Sanders]

out of curiosity what would make you interested and/or read the game? would you say it's the pressure putting you off?
I think you do have the time granted your presence (basically you've been here spending that same time anyways)

[Bernie Sanders]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I have to go to bed but this wagon is pretty overdue by now

[Bernie Sanders]

I'm staying in touch with the current goings on because falling out of touch means I have MORE critical rereading to do and I hate critical rereading

also this is like time while bored at work, so cognisant loosely of current gamestate but also don't have the consistent time/energy/inclination to try and do a solid catchup in few-minute blocks.

like I'm happy to start mastina wallposting if you want but the quality will he substantially lower than if I do it my way

why wallpost if not up to speed what does it accomplish
idk read the entire game then give stances at the end it doesnt matter
this really hasn't been a particularly big or active game to keep track of

[Bernie Sanders]

I do just want to say out of the game if you're town and scum is my other reads I am sorry for giving you such a hard time

on one hand this is might be approaching the most effort I've put into trying to be open minded or charitable on a read thus far (VS writing off and not including where I just ignore reads to give them space)
but I do recognize at least in terms of effort you've put forward more than gamma emerald and invisibility here (though invisibility ironically still probably has more stances) so it is possible I've been unfair. I just think your posting so far is way more likely from you having a scum game approach and I feel like there's more sample size backing it up now

[Bernie Sanders]

that comment was irony tinted, I'm gonna play my way.

basically I'm not sure what you want to get from me out of this convo. like its fairly normal for me to keep up activity itt even when I'm behind in reading and I haven't had the energy for a decent catchup. Sorry

IDK

If I have limited energy I don't even bother doing mini catchups I just read or even skim if necessary until I find a lead that feels interesting to ME
though even without catching up at all, ask other people to do it for you even, something has to stand out or grab your focus at some point I think
to some extent my problem is what I'm using to try to understand your POV are some of my underlying assumptions of why people as town people play the game to begin with and your play seems to contradict them

I really should be off by now though so later

[Bernie Sanders]

Zzzz

I've been super busy getting my things together and am going to be no access tonight/tomorrow though should be fine by saturday or sunday.
still so math catch super sucks, super wall isos to change up everything, math if town judgment is invaluable and math if still dodgy leads to other considerations but idk about now

Gustavo I'd just solely read on the basis of stungun who I highly doubt could've had anything near that level of thought in his scumrange as a newbie

Overall gamma's been playing to his scum meta so far (not really that interested in the gamestate or making conclusions from his questioning)

what I would do ideally if I had more time here is hard engage and really press him, and depending either lynch him or invisiblity's slot but I'd appreciate more votes those slots over e.g nauci shoshin
I admit I can't read N_M for shit (ironically math supposedly may) but invis is just kinda noobscum

still don't like TW here but I'd prefer to take a ton of time to re-evaluate and go deeper if I get the chance and I think enough people probably hold him accountable otherwise

replacement order does kind of screw us here given NSG is top priority to get something in as a slot to sort and nothing

to some extent I maybe do have too many townreads here if the game isn't so simple but otoh I do think it's possible scum here just are the players mostly not that good at it and generally in the fringes (maybe too easy, but some games that is just the case)

[Bernie Sanders]

though ironically as I wrote that people have already started doing it (engaging gamma)

[Bernie Sanders]

@Mod

can we get extensions given the number of replacements and unconventional replacement order (replace of a slot with almost nothing far more important than another)

Ideally I'd want to get another second pass at this game when I have more time but right now as is I won't return until deadline is really close

[Bernie Sanders]

I think if gamma emerald was scum and momrangal was town counterwagons wouldn't be split as so

Gamma Emerald(5) ~ Mathdino, Bernie Sanders, Shoshin, Not_Mafia, Gustavo -> N_M and possibly mathdino potential scum
Bernie Sanders(3) ~ Keyser Söze, Irrelephant11, Momrangal -> Think probably just momrangal scum, MAYBE keysor if he has a really good scumrange
Momrangal(2) ~ skitter30, Nauci -> Probably town wagon
Nauci(1) ~ the worst -> Potential scum vanity
Gustavo(1) ~ Gamma Emerald -> eh

Not Voting (1): Errantparabola -> Potential scum Vanity

A) Gamma is scum and scum do not want gamma lynched. Only momrangal really fits this bill imo, everyone else is either doing vanity, including even gamma, or voting gamma
B) Gamma is scum and there's scum votes on him. Think this is possible but likely not as coordinated or strategic effort. Math if scum probably just distanced and got inactive, no case or anything he'd get credit for pushing. N_M might've done as independent action, idk his busing willingness though possibly looked and saw gamma as a sinking ship. Odd scenario and doesn't feel super likely altogether.

Spoiler: latest essentially the same

Gamma Emerald(5) ~ Mathdino, Bernie Sanders, Shoshin, Not_Mafia, Gustavo
Bernie Sanders(2) ~ Keyser Söze, Momrangal
Momrangal(2) ~ skitter30, Nauci
the worst(1) ~ Gamma Emerald

Not Voting (2): Errantparabola, the worst, Irrelephant11

Mostly nothing interesting (irrelephant change off would be more notable if from someone else)

Really quick from my skimming apart from gamma

TW still pretty mediocre TBH even with content. kinda just wanna lynch him because it would feel good if I was right but I'm wavering on how high percentage it actually is despite everything and losing town tw would be kinda bad. was super hoping to get more from math on this as some due diligence (dont think theyd be s-s) but he said though he scumread him he had bad luck calling it early
Momr I think might be scum now. half hearted nauci wagon join when she had way more reason to do me i dont like or understand. view on gamma and concern feels fake and even kinda excusatory. I get the impression she magicks reads because when she talks or responds to other people about her reads shes just like boring justifying and explaining and not like reconsidering doubting but also still not really like town explaining their thoughts. lack of emotion but also I feel like she doesn't try to convince or care if her explanations make an impact if that makes sense?
EP is logically okay but feels off. feel like he exaggerates how much he can take away from specifics that i dont see how someone can feel strongly from. his reads are pretty close to mine which I still think are probably more or less accurate (doubt i misread any of the people im towning and scum are probably still in my pool though if I was here ideally I'd have been able to narrow it down more) but makes lots of judgments with like a "well, obviously" way and so much confidence that hes objectively right which feels like scum knowing aligns. this latter part has potential stylistic caveat though so yeah
N_M yeah idk N_M. neglecting this game to the point where I still haven't due diligence metad invisibility also (sorry) given shoshin vouched but again blind read is hes just noobscum play (pretty common bland newbie type of scum, shallow lazy and doesnt town agenda and often flakes out)

mathdino doesnt even feel scummy but just hasnt really towntelled, low odds on him though. keysor I remember towntelling a lot and is probably just town but only mention here as unlike a lot of others he gives me the impression he MAY have a decent scumrange and like be one-of-those-guys and gets a kick out of what hes doing

Now gamma, him starting to engage and ask questions now after it being brought up so often and so hard and giving content after essentially having it beaten out of him and even then it's really not great. idk if he's really actually interested in his questions and pursuing his leads or kinda just talking and if his approach is really to find scum or just look interested and do what people expect. the activity thing, reads based on checking profiles is probably the best thing out of him altogether as far as scumhunting but even then at this point and lacking so much else I can see scum getting to that point mentally of thinking of how to look like scumhunting given somehow just not seeing any good points or whatever else and like "oh I could check the activity". funnily enough normally I'd really townread it, as a supplementary thing to substance reads it'd be going the mile beyond and a huge tell IMO, but as the primary just "thing you're doing" and justification for tw vote meh. but again there's the problem that it's actually potentially just true about TW wrt this game and again there have been some anti-team-tells which means I have to be wrong on one of them. finally I can't judge as to AI but its throwing me off how unfazed he seems to be about his wagon and not even really counterwagoning himself (though its possible momrs scum and idk maybe not comfortable justifying scumread on me?) but doing tw vote.

In context with wagons though gamma has been fairly easy and most people he'd be with would really be hanging him out to dry in a way that doesn't make sense. I actually think momrangal is probably the best vote here; if gamma is scum I think she's almost certainly counterwagoning but if gamma is town I think she's still in a good position to push on me for being on it with her off. I think skitter and nauci are probably town onto her and finally if gamma is town I could see her potentially being with the worst as an alternative (TW scumread mom and voted for pressure but seemed to lose interest)

VOTE: momrangal

My lynch priority is something like

momrangal > N_M > Gamma Emerald > TW > Errant > (over math and then over anyone else)

fact that I probably have to be wrong on either gamma or tw in spite of everything makes it kinda hard to justify going there (I think better EV move is lynch outside and really try to find probably source of misread and townread him ideally if I get the chance)
N_M being thrown in there is pretty much just based on invisibility slot again though admittedly there is an element that I highly doubt I'll be able to sort anything that comes from N_M either

as an FYI I'm probably not going to be able to take time and even skim read like this again (which still took hours and that's even mostly just selected ISOs) until deadline though I will try to check VCs if I have to compromise but this is where I'm at right now.

as pedit side note its bizarre how after hours writing up a post the same things get brought up right before
ps super rushed this so possible misread something in skim or missed one or two things if they got brought up already

[Bernie Sanders]

Bah I was even reading yesterday but didn't have my alt password on my phone. Anyways I should be in a stable situation now so hooray!

[Bernie Sanders]

Anyways I think this wagon is kinda bad and if I was around I'd have pushed way harder for momrangal which I think is superior lynch atm.

Gamma isn't very impressive but I don't actually see that much scum motivation in him and he's kinda being the opposite of survivalistic here

[Bernie Sanders]

Again I think even if gamma is is scum it's essentially always with momrangal but right now momrangal-the worst looks more of a scum thing.
IDK if literally anyone commented when I brought this up in my last post but it's aTW pressure voted mom and completely dropped it after with no comment to later townread, furthermore mom defends duck. Though momr gamma read (1188) is weird af too soooo.

At this point it is possibly too late (even for me who always deadline pushes) but I would suggest gamma himself and maybe errant consider voting mom unless he scumreads gamma more given he's not even voting

[Bernie Sanders]

Although in some ways moreso than gamma himself the wagon feels kind of lazy
Mathdino is a afkvote that was a scumread but presumably he was planning to come catchup and re-evaluate and never could
N_M I'm not sure puts more than 30 minutes into thinking about any lynch in any given game even as town and I think has a shot at being scum anyways
The worst I still think can be scum here but seems to have anti associations with gamma suggesting and I think he is voting gamma partly for mom's sake
Gustavo I think is jakefromstatefarm who is a swell guy and town from replacing into stungun's slot but, and I think he might even agree with this, can't tell scum from illogical or playing poorly town for the life of him

Finally furthermore I know that I'm town yet I seem to be most of the gamma partner spec people brought up. Granted if I was in another position I'd potentially suspect that myself but I can just say fmpov gamma lynch is way too easy for scum d1.

[Bernie Sanders]

Though to some extent even if its gamma-mom I'd prefer to lynch mom scum first anyways because there I wouldn't have to deal with annoying association spec

[Bernie Sanders]

Gamma what are the asterisks in your readslist btw?

[Bernie Sanders]

So this awkward but I just did some meta skim due diligence on gamma and he might just actually be scum >___>

[Bernie Sanders]

yeah pretty much every town game he's doing some level of substantial work after rvs ends and throwing pokes and votes around
scum he just comments on things and occasionally votes but its fluffy and theres little point
also when interested mostly seems reactive to things involving himself (similar to with shoshin)

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10052294

compare to as so
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
with more relevant questions and more real interest in people
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
some fluff in rvs but without a doubt scumhunting as the day went on
but pretty much any towngame seems similar

TBH I was expecting either opposite or heavily mixed/inconclusive things but modern gamma seems to have an at-a-glance meta difference almost like a creature or something rather than most people where it's really hard to get anything

[Bernie Sanders]

The only potential caveat is he said he was returning after not having played for a bit so his style may genuinely have changed a lot
though even then in mini 2000 he said he was trying a new low activity playstyle (given he was scum there, likely either to attempt to improve his scumgame or just out of boredom)

[Bernie Sanders]

So the meta is probably right that gamma scumhunts as town, but I also think maybe he actually was scumhunting here after he got started.
Not much but his assessment of gustavo is is kinda true (votes people for bad play or antitown play often and not always looking closer)
Interest on N_M is actually good and you can see 1413 as following from 1294
also I saw a game with momrangal-theworst-gamma emerald so gamma emerald responding to mom's read (714) and then unvoting after 1390 mom's post on the worst is actually fair with some history behind it

[Bernie Sanders]

Gamma how did you go from scumreading to having gustavo and tw as town
with duck I thought maybe it was mom 1390 but you still read as scumreading him in 1392 so strong town is weird
gustavo I saw you stopped scumreading his push on you but how does it go from that to town
similarly idk how math could be anything apart from null here

[Bernie Sanders]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
just finished with gamma scum in it

actually gamma I think you should claim

[Bernie Sanders]

how so
your top townread is on a thoroughly lukewarm mathdino and you've played with math a few times

[Bernie Sanders]

even so they're 2 people you scumread earlier and mathdino who super lurked so I don't get it
a bit strange given id expect at least one townread on someone you mesh with or think has good thoughts (here your townreads are all voting you lol)

[Bernie Sanders]

except nauci

[Bernie Sanders]

no math gave a bit early but the gist of a lot of what he said was hed hold judgment until he had time to ISO and promised a lot of content which never really came (he said wednesday which was a week ago)
I didn't say anything about development, I'm wondering just how you're townreading any of these people given it doesn't really seem to be for the most common reason people townread people (thinking they have good insights or similar thought processes to oneself)

[Bernie Sanders]

What do you feel most strongly about this game gamma?

[Bernie Sanders]

VOTE: gamma emerald

[Bernie Sanders]

I think we should potentially look into hypoclaiming today, but I'm not sure how exactly it would work.

[Bernie Sanders]

At minimum, no full readslists though.

[Bernie Sanders]

Actually I'm not sure it's a good idea. Mathdino thoughts?

[Bernie Sanders]

VOTE: momrangal

[Bernie Sanders]

My scumreads are all literally hardlurking the daystart.
I was going to be somewhat tightlipped until getting content from all around, see what most of my scumreads decide to push before I call them all out, but it's looking not possible now.
I'm going to go into this more tomorrow but irrelephant pretty much mirrored my thoughts on VCA here and that was specifically why I even chose momrangal and yeah generally the thing that I think sometimes scum want to avoid heat from being on mislynch wagon whenever possible. Not always but sometimes they see lynches as worse than town because they know it's a mislynch, so it feels extra scummy for them to join and they have reasons why its mislynchy that they can't explain. I think gamma played awful here ad made it very hard to read him and I even can usually reliably sort him (though towards the end, it was partially a matter that he was claimed VT and I was slightly worried of an certain outside risk of deadline flash wagon momrangal VLA even if I scumread her more).

Also, I'm not sure how to put this but I feel like I might've been the NK target last night for what very little that speculation is worth.

[Bernie Sanders]

BTW I'm feeling better about irrelephant because he was yesterday one of my "am I actually safe to townread this guy?" reads that I was thinking I'd have to reconsider but he mirrored me pretty hard today.
This gamestate is pretty fucking bizarre though, it's not like 2 people either it's almost half the game gone.

[Bernie Sanders]

VOTE: The worst
I think mom-TW then probably N_M, if not then BV/math slot. Mom tw have to die though.
I was going to hard insist mom today actually but 1746 is legitimately scummy from duck here.
FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

[Bernie Sanders]

Actually should probably do mom anyways.

[Bernie Sanders]

You can live today if you vote momrangal.

[Bernie Sanders]

Momrangals first focus here on a townread somewhat betraying(?) her rather than on who is scum or analyzing anything given gamma flipped is no bueno.

[Bernie Sanders]

IDK if that's talking about irrelephant or actually keysor soze which is kind of confusing

[Bernie Sanders]

Mmm
So if momrangal is town I'd expect one of two things depending on her read strength of me here
If hard scumreading, vote and push convincingly as priority.
If anything but, engage with me.
But this reaction is kind of evasive and somewhat talking around the point or of making judgment.

[Bernie Sanders]

VOTE: momrangal

[Bernie Sanders]

A] I think bernie is scum. Reiterate this and push or whatever, idk what exactly but I know this approach really doesn't fit it.
B] Anything else, even I think bernie is probably scum, but I'm not sure so I want to take some time to gather my thoughts etc etc etc. Engage directly (!!!) but if not ask good faith questions to townreads.

What are your thoughts on Bernie though? I made a case on him yesterday, and what key posted shows him starting the same behaviour he had around me and gamma. Why do you think hes hard pushing me but clearly going after another target?

This is weak. "I made a case on him."
A) Is there a judgment call here (I don't see one), is it an attempt to convince.
B) Or is it an actual question to consider the answer and viewpoint. But I don't think that's true either, the question reads leading, I think if it was a real question it would be posed to me directly, and finally there's no take or interpretation on her take in regard to what I wrote around it in thread.

[Bernie Sanders]

Also WTF everyone left that wagon and it was between stay as a single vote or hop on to duck who I've had the most reason to believe as mom partner so far this game.
I have to be crazy here if anyone reads that as a question asked by momrangal in good faith.

[Bernie Sanders]

I get it but she ignores the (very obvious) context of how I voted her first though and everyone left that wagon essentially because she was v/la with implication it'd be reconsidered after.
I don't think that's like some subtle thing anyone town who is reading to try to make a call on the situation could actually miss. I think she just said that as a thing rather than actually looking at the situation.

[Bernie Sanders]

I wish mathdino didn't go away before taking a hardstand this game.

[Bernie Sanders]

Everyone should probably either vote momrangal or at minimum respond to my points on her.

[Bernie Sanders]

@BV 1824
Was going to wagon stun partially just for the sake of it (the game felt lazy and boring there), but also he seemed the kind of newbie you can emotionally hardsort with pressure (could go into this). But he was starting to towntell slightly and I'd have felt pretty bad too if he's town and I pushed him that way (essentially rattle him very hard and judge reaction) for the sake of seeing "emotional tells" for an early "easy" read (there is something ethical to be said on this kind of thing), when I didn't even particularly have much reason to suspect him specifically. He got obvtown soon after though.

Invis just reads noob disengagedscum but where I stand anything I'm not getting towntells from is bad enough here. I can't really read N_M, last game I scumread him for lacking engagement relative to usual N_M which I thought was his meta tell but he flipped town d1. There's an element that it feels like a crapshoot given just low sample size and people giving the invis caveats though again nothing makes him town either and unfortunately he usually ignores pressure too so doesn't seem productive to go there, ideally attempt to poe read towards it. Though like n_m replacing in to play and then being like this is maybe not comparable to the game he started in and didn't find interesting and so kinda worse (occasional scum replace tell).

[Bernie Sanders]

Everyone should probably either vote momrangal or at minimum respond to my points on her.

Think it could be Mom, Key, and the worst?

IDK. If you scumread keysor you should probably either case or meta him. I feel like there's obvscum here so my priority isn't in what would probably be a lot of effort to try to hardsort people like keysor or errantparabola. I don't townread him that much because what I liked from him was mostly efforting and good analysis but that's not particularly reliable either. That said I could see him scum possible given I feel like he's had little game impact despite all his posting (and I've felt pretty much no pressure from him on his scumread) but I'm not even looking for a third right now.
Hell even in general I think looking to lockdown and call out fullteam distracts given if you have 2 scum but misread town as a third it potentially detracts from the whole thing and that approach you end up focusing on the people you feel least strongly and picking between them for a game of who is partner spec rather than actually pushing lynching most likely scum

[Bernie Sanders]

holy mother of busywoek

if the cop isn't on BVslot they should be embarrassed

BV's very obviously town here.

I'd kinda reserve judgment here as well just to be safe
When I was playing with him we were town together and I thought he was super obvtown because tons of real scumhunting effort and what seemed like very insightful analysis (even when it was wrong like on me). Then I blindread another game after and felt the exact same way and thought okay easy but it turned out to be scum BV lol. I think I briefly checked again for like 5 minutes when BV replaced into alternating 9p as a curiosity though I was already dead by that time
as a side note that game me and BV had and clownspiracy put me off putting primary focus as association spec/partner hunting over individuals, you're town and you see people wasting literally countless hours of all day trying to fit partners with you and you with partners and it's like wow you wasted the entire day and I can't even say anything about or engage it and like okay those other people are probably scum can we lynch them (and then they say that's a strange association for scumpartners and a daring bus and don't want to lynch them anymore).

[Bernie Sanders]

I literally don't know what momrangal is doing because she's not engaging me but also isn't trying to wagon me.

[Bernie Sanders]

It might not matter, but can you respond to my mom points and tell me why you have a TW preference.

[Bernie Sanders]

@keysor Can I get you to summarise your strongest reads in like a few sentences or something
I really don't get much out of going through you essentially describing past game events and giving "this is town/bad/just weird" or "hmm this could mean one of two things idk which" comment on each one when you can just do all that, and post a summary when you're done with with conclusions and overall judgments or what points you're making. You have individual statements but not enough on how it'd all come together or what you're really trying to convey.

[Bernie Sanders]

TW get in here.

[Bernie Sanders]

Let it slide for now I guess.

[Bernie Sanders]

I have never seen so much content and still have no idea what points they're actually making or like stances as with keysor.

[Bernie Sanders]

I will unlikely vote for NM today.

How

[Bernie Sanders]

@TW I'm not comfortable letting you off though
I thought your play was working with your townreads and get stuff done, so?
You really think skitter nauci are scum duo after you?
Or you think BV and consequently math is now scum for busywork catchup I think they generally do?
Granted I don't like quotewall stuff but BV will take stances and commit to things when he's finished, probably regardless of align

Talk more about your mom read given you were townreading her yesterday

[Bernie Sanders]

@@@Shoshin
https://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php? ... mit=Search

[Bernie Sanders]

Keysor answer my questions to you.
Also make a post on who you think should be lynched and why in a dense compact way so people can actually try to follow your thought processes, I don't care if it's on me or whatever. You talked about who you'd vote and you commented a lot on individual posts but I want to see what you think are the strongest or most convincing points that you feel the most strongly about.

[Bernie Sanders]

I don't get it because I'm not even pushing N_M.

[Bernie Sanders]

I don't get it because I'm not even pushing N_M.

Then why get upset me saying I have NM as null and unlikely to vote him today?

I'm not upset. I actually went into why I probably wouldn't ultimately lynch N_M here despite him easily being possibly scum because I think momrangal is hardscumming it up. But that doesn't mean I don't want to know how you arrived. Actually if you read my posts, which I thought you did but now I'm doubting, I was pretty much asking for you go into your reads and summarise somewhat overall (which you've now done in response to shoshin).

[Bernie Sanders]

Bernie, you think Key is town?

Outlined my keysor read recently so read that, gist of it I don't really townread him but mom should die. Keysor is more just weird and there is a small chance is town stuck in tinfoil hat hell.

[Bernie Sanders]

What is NotMafia?

Countless men have tried to solve the enigma that is NotMafia and failed.

[Bernie Sanders]

Actually I started that I think.

[Bernie Sanders]

@TW >>> 2034

[Bernie Sanders]

@Nauci I agree with you on TW for the most part but in spite of everything I think he's a bit more risky compared to mom lynch

@TW I extremely doubt that scumteam (nauci,skitter,mom) FTR. Nauci I really think isn't scum, skitter probably not though I kind of forgot why, but moreover nauci skitter were the 2 voting mom yesterday and I really doubt if they'd make their partner highhandedly half viable as lynch when 1 easily could've like vanity voted or something too (there's bussing someone and then there's making someone who otherwise would never have gotten lynched a lynch option, which e.g. if gamma had like claimed pr mom would've probably been lynched). Strongly suggest on off chance you're town to look after mom in N_M, then maybe EP BV keysor slots at minimum in place of nauci.

Just to be clear you scumread skitter nauci because they scumread mom but pushed your lynch today
But here the case is the scumreads on you were fairly established ahead of time and furthermore it is extremely common for wagons to die of cold feet if on V/la or inactive
Furthermore skitter voted you first before going to mom, and skitter's follow on nauci (1776) as an "ok I'll follow you" is to my mind a rather rare interaction and I'd give hard anti-association anyways from their kind of mind melding thing and tons of talking about reads together over course of game.
Don't see how you can viably realistically push this as scumteam.

[Bernie Sanders]

I'm going to hard pull the BoP card and ask people to stop speccing PR and NK stuff anymore today, and I think I have to insist on mom today over duck. Nauci irrelephant I'm sorry but despite the meta thing I think my experience makes my judgment here more reliable.

[Bernie Sanders]

WRT earlier d1

Momr I think might be scum now. half hearted nauci wagon join when she had way more reason to do me i dont like or understand. view on gamma and concern feels fake and even kinda excusatory. I get the impression she magicks reads because when she talks or responds to other people about her reads shes just like boring justifying and explaining and not like reconsidering doubting but also still not really like town explaining their thoughts. lack of emotion but also I feel like she doesn't try to convince or care if her explanations make an impact if that makes sense?

WRT d1

I'm going to go into this more tomorrow but irrelephant pretty much mirrored my thoughts on VCA here and that was specifically why I even chose momrangal and yeah generally the thing that I think sometimes scum want to avoid heat from being on mislynch wagon whenever possible. Not always but sometimes they see lynches as worse than town because they know it's a mislynch, so it feels extra scummy for them to join and they have reasons why its mislynchy that they can't explain. I think gamma played awful here ad made it very hard to read him and I even can usually reliably sort him

But recommend you read her and my posts page 76 https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=10307186

Context is very important here to understand it however. The day had already gone on a little bit by then and mom is coming back from being busy or whatever. I think okay on very chance she's actually town I should be able to tell if she really means it in either her push today or whatever else (if convincing progression to justify). She talks about how keysors take is a little odd (keysor among other things specced mom+me) and irrelephant betrayed her by changing his read on mom. Talking to skitter she first brings up the read on herself then me. I'm her top scumread to the point where she says she says its pointless engaging with me (1902) but she doesn't really push me with any kind of effort (like idk no even vote), her tone feels really flat and I don't see anything that makes me think she really believes in the read or cares that much what happens today aside from a bit on trying to get people to stop scumreading her.

[Bernie Sanders]

Where I'm voting at any given time is usually a subset of people I'm okay with lynching

but we're so far from end of day that I'm not seeing why this is an issue versus pursuing appropriate avenues

I thought this as well but deadline is starting to creep up.

[Bernie Sanders]

2217 being directed to Gustavo

[Bernie Sanders]

The perpetual catchup stalling strats.

[Bernie Sanders]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 1&start=50

[Bernie Sanders]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

[Bernie Sanders]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
replaces into 104 page game, skips catchup to skim and goes for game impact
Alternating 9p he did it kinda all at once though it did take him many hours that day

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
here deadline is very soon on his replace so he crams and mostly just reads ISOs of wagons (because game impact is important)

BV what say yee?

[Bernie Sanders]

FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

Also, Skitter Bernie admitted right here that he was aiming to push me to lynch and that my V/la means fuck all

Today, yeah.

[Bernie Sanders]

Don't have it in me to ISO anyone right now, but I've made my stance clear on BS and (despite his saying otherwise) he's been my focus for today. The only thing he's gotten right is the fact that I'm not voting him mostly because I'm just one vote

I guess people can cross reference this but this is like really really bizarre to me.

[Bernie Sanders]

Gustavo my concern of why wagoning momrangal might have been risky EOD d1 doesn't exist today.

[Bernie Sanders]

What's bizarre about it?

My focus has been on (X) this entire day but I've not voted him because it would just be one vote so what's the point.

[Bernie Sanders]

I don't think Bernie's scum, Mom.

that being that he isn't even entirely committing to me.

Expand on this

[Bernie Sanders]

As an analogy here momrangal if she was town given her POV should have at least a tiny little bit of what gustavo is showing.

[Bernie Sanders]

Jake literally does this every game just ignore him.

[Bernie Sanders]

Zzzzzzzz

[Bernie Sanders]

FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

Also, Skitter Bernie admitted right here that he was aiming to push me to lynch and that my V/la means fuck all

Today, yeah.

ok i apparently read this whole thing wrong. i thought he wanted to wagon you while you were v/la with the understanding a lynch would only happen once you came back; i didn't realize he was pushing to lynch you during v/la - i very much object to this

No that's not the goal specifically but the v/la does mean fuck all

[Bernie Sanders]

It might actually be a good idea for TheWorst/Momrangal to claim. If we're going to wait all the way until intent is given, we're probably going to scramble towards deadline and it seems pretty obvious that those are our likely options.

Excuse me
We're not getting 2 claims

Blackvoid I thought you would know better than this wtf

I guess mom can claim if she wants but tbh I really don't think I'd believe any PR claim that comes out of her to begin with.

[Bernie Sanders]

I mean you also thought claiming was worth it because of just one person scumreading you.

[Bernie Sanders]

and TW you really have to read 2194

[Bernie Sanders]

It should probably bother you that most people in the game are scumreading you and that includes by necessity some town.

[Bernie Sanders]

it's actually high key difficult to remain engaged when
there's probs 3 scum
and i have 3 players sitting at the bottom of my reads list

like unless one of you flips town i can't really see a reason why i'd get interested in this game

If I told you there had to be town in the bottom of your reads list (because your team doesn't make sense, but just assume statement is true) what would you do

[Bernie Sanders]

I want you to bring up nauci and skitter's ISO side by side
and I want you to either reference a scumgame where you've seen scum play that association
outside of idk teammafia or scummy nominations
or otherwise explain how you think that's their scum MO.

[Bernie Sanders]

I want to see what you see

[Bernie Sanders]

Come on man. I'm starting to reconsider giving you benefit of the doubt here.

[Bernie Sanders]

heh
was actually a little worried I mightve been wrong on mom or reading into nai even though she felt super scummy and was probably never lynching anyone else in that situation
but it kills pretty much any convincingness in saying so even if my say 80% is still something I'd vastly prefer than letting whatever else happen or essentially letting chips fall where they may

[Bernie Sanders]

not at my home computer until tomorrow to dig at today
first impressions wrt today is BV isn't actually as scummy as he first feels around that wagon
TW have to revisit, was definitely speccing as mom-partner but if so bus was kind of useless for him. feels somewhat a crapshoot and laziest way to sort it would be via the claim (setup spec of game this size and normal-like is sometimes easy) but by the same token getting the info to judge that is ehhh would have to weigh things
mom did probably have at least a bus vote (feel like mom wouldve even maybe just asked her partners to bus her at some point into the day given situation) and I think it could easily have been N_M or EP there instead of TW though tw did do partner chaining kind of thing with nauci skit and not answering severe criticism of that scumgrouping

could probably soft-solve the game (flowchart kinda decision tree aka mathdino style that wins) at minimum today with reasonably small groupings and haven't even yet comprehensively analysed associations

[Bernie Sanders]

VOTE: N_M think PoE wise this probably has to be scum at this point with anti TW-Errant assoc

[Bernie Sanders]

TW as-is has committed to outing some result by the end of the day

and, although this is my restriction, he has to at minimum fullclaim a day previous to any possible mylo or lylo if things degrade to that point
although I really would expect him if town to be killed by then
if scum he can still then be CCd or got via a conflict there (or if town and scum cc'd he gets caught out on the return) and forces the point, either scum die that day, or in return lynch at worst, or no cc happens and duckfirmed town if he is

[Bernie Sanders]

maybe EP and TW just claimed their scum pt as a neighbourhood in the ultimate gambit strat

[Bernie Sanders]

Would never ordinarily recommend cutting someone doing what TW is this game this much slack but there is a fairly big power shortage here that makes me somewhat wary. doctor wasn't even full but oddnight

Also logically TW should know on some level the risk associated with softing if he is scum but doing it when mom the encryptor was the clear other lynch to him would be just kind of dumb I think (though maybe he's just bad at scum)

neighbouriser is almost negligible in any power sense if town and one that gives neighbourhoods that delayed and nightonly feels like it sucks even compared to neighbourisers im used to
if EP felt scummier here I'd completely ignore the claim altogether WRT pushing or lynching him BTW but he doesn't really stick out besides being kind of unengaged (although maybe that's why it's hard to tell)

[Bernie Sanders]

btw I remembered from one of the times reading mom iso but
mom-invisibility thing on the surface might seem anti-tell on most surface level but is pretty common to how noobscum and sometimes badscum distance
rvs partnervote is almost infamous as is votepark on partner but dont really push him and sleep off most of other game happenings

[Bernie Sanders]

neighbouriser if town offers very little power and almost negligible to setup spec. especially if it cant talk during day (get to talk the night after is also a huge delay in a game like mafia). best case scenario is very rare but if the neighbouriser gets a PR and they both can soulread each other town they can try to roleswap or in other words the neighbouriser can out a result for the PR who could stay safe. extremely, extremely rare.
its as scum OTOH that it has some level as power though because there it can serve well for manipulation and potential to get trust, maybe role and kill

[Bernie Sanders]

btw I remembered from one of the times reading mom iso but
mom-invisibility thing on the surface might seem anti-tell on most surface level but is pretty common to how noobscum and sometimes badscum distance
rvs partnervote is almost infamous as is votepark on partner but dont really push him and sleep off most of other game happenings

So you disagree with my speculation about scumErrant+townTW?

IDK what's your speculation beyond it's possible (I'm kind of skimming to try to be efficient)
EP scum is possible as in I don't really feel safe townreading him and he's disengaged in general but nothing particularly sticks out or makes me think he's better than cointoss odds

[Bernie Sanders]

24 hours without elaborating on his claim (likely because he didn't find anything to help him make something plausible up?).

These delay tactics. Ugh..

maybe mom-tw-bv came into this game with the infinite time delay to frustrate town to death strategem
the never ending vla the never ending soft and the never ending story catchup

[Bernie Sanders]

huh just had a thing wondering if something didn't feel missing/off today and I didnt know what but then realised probably feeling the lack of shoshin presence (:/)