Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[BlackVoid]

Hi guys! I was spectating the game but was skimming pretty hard. So, I'll give it a thorough read-through. I'm going to do something different here and actually post walls of quotes responding to everything I find notable and then post a list of my reads in the end. I think it'll help me process the game faster. Also, I have to leave for work in around 3.5 hours but I have the day off tomorrow so that's when I'll do the bulk of it.

[BlackVoid]

From the first few pages, I think Shoshin is probably town for tossing out early townreads. It's the kind of "POE mindset" that town often tend to have where they try to narrow down the pool of potential scum by finding town. I also think the pg1-2 conflict between her and skitter was based on playstyle and both genuinely believed what they were saying.

Zzz
This is great and all but let's all build a wagon on actual scum
VOTE: invisible

This is the entrance I liked the least. The "zzz" tries to give off the impression that Momrangal doesn't find anything that's been said so far to be useful and the term "actual scum" feels like she's saying she's got some really good insight that everyone else is missing. But she doesn't actually say what it is. This whole post just rubs me the wrong way. I think the discussion that's happened so far is fine for the first two pages and not worthy of a "zzz."

Cuz what I see is active lurking already happening.

How was Invisibility "active lurking?" At the time you said this, he had already inserted himself into skitter's and shoshin's back-and-forth and posted opinions and clarifications to help move it forward. I think that's fine for page 2. What else were you expecting?

@Irrelephant - maybe I had flashbacks to a game where I (as scum) felt comfortable scum reading only my team mate right off the bat, early game, and my team mate didn’t know what to do (both throwing shade and giving me a defence via meta). I saw abit of this in Shoshin and mathdino. But the way things have unfolded... I feel like this is too reachy.

This post gives me a slight townread on Keyser. It's a pretty deep thought process and I have a hard time seeing scum coming up with such a nuanced reason to suspect two people. Also, his point about scum occasionally only feeling comfortable scumreading their teammates resonates with me because I've felt that way as scum sometimes when I was newer. It feels like townie paranoia.

The strongest page 5 reads I have are that shosh/skitter are probably the same alignment, and that said alignment is town. Correcting for misconceptions by someone else about someone else feels town motivated to me because scum would just sit back and let the confusion do its thing.

Can you elaborate on your phrasing here? You said they are the "same alignment" and that alignment is town as opposed to just saying that you are townreading them both. That implies that the second most likely possibility is that they are both scum as opposed to one of them being scum and the other town. Why? I generally have a hard time understanding the logic behind people saying that two players could be both scum or both town. I think the second sentence may have been an explanation for this but I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about there.

i had a gut feeling naucy was being naughty. i wasn’t explicitly scumreading the slot per se, but nobody had voted for the slot yet and i couldn’t see a clear town motive peeking through their iso at their earlier content, so i laid a vote down there.

This explanation of voting someone because he thinks they aren't getting enough attention is a towntell (for a newbie). Considering he joined a month ago, that gives me a slight townread.

Feeling currently like Shoshin/Stungun/math has at most one mafiosa. Keyser/stungun/skitter could have as many as THREE but probably not more than like 1.5.

How are any of these players related to the other? Why not just post your reads on people instead of listing out three people and saying there's at most one scum in there (on what basis did you conclude this)? The thought process behind the second sentence is also something I don't understand.

eh fuck it

VOTE: stungun

What were you thinking at this time? I dislike "fuck it" votes in general because it's hard to see what the person is thinking and analyzing wagons based on "fuck it" votes is pretty hard too. Fuck what? Did you think stungun was "rattled?" How? And why is it scummy? Did you find Shoshin's argument persuasive? The handful of content posts stungun made up until that point felt towny to me.

Stungun's 134 is towny as well for the same reason Shoshin mentioned in 139.

Eh can't even bullshit being interested on this

Are you saying the Stungun vote was a reaction test of sorts?

Okay after a quick re-skim I'm feeling not good about how easily pushed back Stun was. Vote on me without follow up justification, even highlighting not asking anyone else to do so, and then very quick unvote from just being asked why.

He didn't quickly unvote. He posted several times between responding to why he voted you. I didn't think his motivation for voting you felt scummy at all. There are a lot of easy things he could pick on if he wanted to blend in without drawing attention to someone he thinks is not being given enough scrutiny. He eventually unvoted towards the end of the day so he could re-read with fresh eyes the following day I assume. Saying he quickly unvoted and was pushed back too easily doesn't feel like an honest representation of what he did.

Hot take: Keyser hasn’t done anything towny yet

I found his posts generally towny. Do you have any opinions on his posts so far? Did you have a reason to be concerned or you just thought he was null?

That's the first seven pages. Heading off to work now. Will be back at around 8 hours.

[BlackVoid]

i think i'm going to try to read you by seeing how much we mindmeld

posts from after you catchup will count more than posts made during your catchup because i'm incredibly paranoid and i don't know how much of my posting you read before replacing in and we talked about how you'd play scum in that hydra game

That's fair. I skimmed enough to know that you being this involved in the game means you are very likely town. I'm going to catch up quickly so we can get to the good stuff (discussing reads) soon.

[BlackVoid]

From page 8, I like Stungun's 183 and thought process on Gemini.

@stungun I like Shoshin, you, Bernie, Mom, and Mathdino for town so far, in that order. None of them are particularly strong because few players have said a ton. I was voting you for pressure because it seemed to rattle you, but the rattling had a towniness as it went on.

What do you mean by "rattling?" Bernie actually said the same thing earlier. I don't see stungun getting rattled in a towny or scummy way.

I agree with your Shoshin and Stungun reads. But why Momrangel as town?

I feel like conventional wisdom says Keyser is playing in a towny way, but none of the things he’s saying actually feel genuine? To put it another way, his play fits in a town box, but almost seems too perfectly shaped for it. I’m not saying he’s scummy yet, just that I haven’t seen enough to sort.

This is a bit too vague for me to understand. What are you referring to when you say that his play fits a town box but is too perfectly shaped for it? What is this "conventional wisdom" that says he is playing in a towny way?

Irrelephant's probably town.

He's one of the active players I don't have a townread on based on their early posting. Can you elaborate what you were thinking here?

Even if you don't like the way Invis posts, 158, 168, and 169 should clear him. I highly doubt he'd make either of these as scum.

This is a good point, agree that all those posts were townie. I was actually even getting townvibes out of stuff like "I'm too tired to think" even though it's a bad reason to townread someone.

Oh good we’re doin this now VOTE: Skitter

I don't think you elaborated on your skitter read at any point so far. I'll see if you did later but if not, I'd like to hear it.

I was reading the game

because the rapping is

and soft mind melded with Gemini a couple of times so the slot was too good to pass up

This implies that you wanted the slot because you thought it was town. Do you have a preference for playing town?

I think I might(?) have had an ancient keysor tell/spec written down I might look into later

I think this is unlikely to come from scum. I've liked Bernie's more recent posts in general as well but not confident there. I'm reading through the lens of this being Raskolnikov and I have a few ideas on what he might play like as both alignments. Making a note to come back to this.

I'm only saying this because it reminds me of when I townread lovebird one time for somewhat comparable townread/paranoia/elsewhere progression (except it was harder; my thought was why bother faking that strange progression?)

I think Lovebird is just more competent at mafia than Invisibility. I've spectated a game where Invisibility was playing and while he was town there, his posting was somewhat VI'ish so I think it would be beyond him to fake genuine thought processes.

Shoshin is pretty town too overall. I didn't mention every post that gave me a townvibe but there were a lot of them. 273 sealed in my read though. Blocking out lynches on mislynch-bait hurts scum wincon considerably. It's a good move as town but not as scum.

zzzzzzz
unfortunately research shows invis is kinda mad lynchbait, though I think he might still end up being scum regardless (and it is the case that I've a few times psyched myself to be overly wary of scum on such concerns)

If you still share this view of Invisibility/Not_Mafia, can you elaborate? Are you saying he's actively scummy or you just have paranoia that the things he's being townread for may be null?

[BlackVoid]

That's until the end of page 14. Going to bed. I'll try to finish this tomorrow since I have the whole day to it.

[BlackVoid]

Bernie is getting harder to read so even though I want to keep him in my townreads it’s hard.

I didn't feel this way at all based on Bernie's posting a few posts before yours. He's being vague about his TheWorst read because he didn't seem to want to out his alt at that point but none of it comes across as disingenuous and I didn't feel like he was being vague because he wanted to conceal a lack of good reasons for his reads.

All of his early posts reek of eagerness to look like he's doing something productive and meaningful while doing absolutely jackall.

He's sitting there looking pretty, playing it safe, and it looks like hes engaging with people but the questions are empty.

I'm not seeing how you got that from 39. It looks like he was clarifying whether Shoshin's scumread on Math was RVS or not.

@Shoshin - now’s the time to share that irrefutable meta evidence for town-invisibility. momrangel actually came back with a bang.

I don't think her post was particularly good. Admittedly, it's better than her previous posts but "came back with a bang" feels like an exaggeration for a pretty banal post. I also want to note that I see a lot of hanging back and letting other people push each other from you. For example, complimenting Momrangal for the Invisibility push and then asking Shoshin for her Invisibility meta-read. Do you think it's pro-town to get other people to argue with each other? Would you say this is how you normally play (I'm going to check but I'd like your opinion as well)? Also, Shoshin already elaborated on her Invisibility townread. I want to know why you aren't taking a stance here with your own opinions.

What do you think of mom’s choice to fixate only on invisibility so far?

This feels like a weird turn from “momrangel came back with a bang” (the post implies a town Mom and a push on Shoshin) to now, where you’re kinda asking town Shoshin to scumread Mom?

This is a fair point actually. He's basically been encouraging other people to respond to each other's arguments but not much in the way of inserting his own opinions in there very strongly. I'll come back to this when I figure out whether this is normal for him. It's like everytime someone makes a point at someone else, he turns around and asks the other person how they respond, almost as if he's moderating a debate.

His 31, 88, 89, 210, and 414 feel overly performative.

Can you elaborate on "performative?"

I wanted to sit back and watch Shoshin and Momrangel to play out the inner conflict in my head I have over Invisibility.

I like the transparency here. This confirms what I was thinking about Keyser but I don't think scum would be blatant about the fact that they are in fact sitting back.

@Keyser - can you describe how you normally play as scum?

DUCCKKKKYYYYYY!!!!if scum, never playing with Gemini again

I'm not following what you're trying to say here. Is replacing out as scum a blacklist-worthy offence? People replace out when they don't have time to play. Alignment should never be a factor.

shoshin/math and shoshin/stun really didn't look like early s/s and stun and dino both seemed independently towny

and then I was sorta light-scumreading all three of the second list and there was nothing to indicate they had different alignments

Your second list was Keser/Stungun/Skitter. Were you townreading or scumreading Stungun?

Like what if you're buddying me and really good at it
Oh well. It's honestly fine for now if it's true
Consider me buddied, we're buddies now. Buddied up from now till lylo see you then <3

I really don't like this post because it feels like you want to present yourself as a townie that's being buddied by Shoshin. If you're townreading her but have mild paranoia, you could probably just say that. If you're actually scumreading her, you'd be pushing her. But there's this weird read where you're basically calling her scum that's buddying you but who you won't push until LYLO. It looks more like that's the image you want to present to the game as opposed to it being a genuine read. So, that mid to late game if Shoshin is alive/comes under suspicion, you can come back to this and say "oh, yeah I got buddying vibes from Shoshin" and use that as a reason to push her then.

what I found is that her play here is consitent with her play in town games and actually slightly different from her play in scum games.

Can you give me a short overview of the differences you found in Momrangal's town and scum games.

I like Nauci's re-entrance in 656. But the rest of the catchup is somewhat null. I don't see much that strikes me either way. I'm still mulling over what Nauci's suspicions of Irrelephant means for both of their alignments. Haven't ruled out any combination yet.

My rule of thumb that I absolutely don't vouch for is that, when heavily pressured, scum!tw becomes exponentially more dodgy/bullshitter, and slightly more serious as town. (based on one game w/ him and skimming a couple of others)

Why reveal this before you have a chance to see what he's like under pressure? Even if he's not pressured immediately, there's a chance he would be at some point. Edit: Just read 675 where you call it a placebo effect. Why can't he act serious if he's scum and gets pressured if he knows that's what you're expecting?

578, 583 I post this kind of crap when I'm unmotivated scum so it's hard not to read it this way

Would you mind linking me to places where you've said this as scum.

I generally gives 0 fucks about how I'm perceived in the game. If I am challenged on a specific thing or if someone has misinterpreted something I said, I'll address that. Otherwise, I just endeavor to town harder.

This pinged. This is a game of perceptions and to do well as town, you need to read people correctly and be read correctly. "I give zero fucks about how I'm perceived" feels like bravado/putting up a front. The most content you've written about anyone in your readslist is yourself (tied with Irrelephant) which is also odd for someone who doesn't care about how they are perceived.

I actually don't like anything you've written under the heading of yourself. Why give bullet-points when you don't like self-meta?

I'm extremely capable of separating someone's read of me with my evaluation of the circumstances of how they read me as if it was any other player and their content.

What's the point of saying this?

I will get exhaustibly pedantic to correct a misconception so try not to make any or I will be here arguing w/ you on it for 9 pages.

It's well within your control to not argue with people for 9 pages if you don't think it's alignment-indicative so I don't see the point of this either. Obviously if do think it's alignment-indicative, then it's a good lead and not just being pedantic.

How do you reconcile your stance of not sheeping with using TheWorst's vouch of Bernie as part of your reason to townread Bernie?

As for Nauci's actual readslist, I don't disagree with any of her townreads. I'm not so confident in Keyser being town but I'm leaning town. I think Stungun, Skitter, Bernie, and Shoshin are town. I know Math and Gamma are town. If she's scum, she's got a list where both her buddies would be in the bottom five reads and I think it's a less likely approach as scum than having at least one partner higher up in their reads. So, that gives me townvibes from Nauci. Overall, I'm pretty conflicted.

It this a bus, or is it opportunism? Funnily enough, this late push on TW followed TW's famous "Bernie Sanders remains probably my strongest townread" line Makes me want to re-look at TW's read of you too.

Bernie pushing TheWorst when TheWorst was townreading him so hard makes Bernie less likely to be scum. I think the scenario where the TheWorst is scum and buddying Bernie and Bernie not buying it is the most probable one. I don't know why you jumped to them being scum together as the most likely conclusion. One scum hard-townreading and vouching for another and the other voting them is actually a pretty unlikely interaction.

699 is a pretty underwhelming catchup by Invisibility with a few rehashed points.

Nauci's Irrelephant push in 702 and 704 felt genuine. The more I think about it, I actually don't think that after a great game as scum together, Nauci's strategy in the next game she plays with Irrelephant is to keep pushing for his mislynch on the basis of his good scumplay at least this early in the game (in the Nauci-scum, Irrelephant-town scenario). I suppose she could but I'd expect it more in the form of "why is he still alive" a few day phases from now as opposed to this paranoia push which is much less likely to gain traction.

@TheWorst, you never answered which posts of Gemini's you mindmelded on. I also want to know what alignment you prefer to play.

That's to the end of page 30. Catchup is going slower than expected but I'm still hoping I'll be caught up by tonight. We shall see. Feel free to engage my posting. I feel like I have a bit more solid take on the game now. My focus from POE is mostly on Irrelephant, Momrangal, TheWorst, and Northsidegal's slot (but I haven't read any of the replacement's posts yet). I'll do an actual readslist when I'm caught up.

[BlackVoid]

Hey BV, I like your catchup posts quite a bit. One very important question for you, why is Skitter town?

I'm trying to think of how best to explain it since there's a pretty big meta component here. To put it succinctly, she's a lot more persistent about pushing reads and gamesolving when she's town. I don't have first hand experience with her scumgame but from the few games I've read, she can fake analytical-looking posts to a certain extent but there's a lack of drive to keep pushing, finding answers and solving the game. As scum, she sometimes has a tendency to get a bit lurkish/burn out from the effort. In her towngames, it doesn't feel like it's a chore for her to keep churning out more content. She can just keep going until she gets to the bottom of whatever she's pushing. Since you're into reading previous games, take a glance through some of skitter's scum games and I think you'll get what I'm talking about. They are several months old but the mindset still holds. She prefers playing town over scum and this game, she's

well

out of her scumrange.

[BlackVoid]

I'm speeding up my catchup so I'll try to just comment on things significantly affecting my reads.

Momrangel's Bernie case and defense of TheWorst is 794 is really convoluted (she lampshaded it in her next post but it doesn't help). Why would Bernie be pushing a mislynch on someone who vouched for him being town? When there are so many other players that he could have pushed and even used TheWorst to help him push those lynches? I also don't get how Bernie was taking a "neutral stance" on TheWorst. And I don't think people would be so simplistic as to simply go after the ones who pushed TheWorst hardest in the event of a townflip. I also thought the narrative of TheWorst as the vulnerable player being piled on and mislynched by Bernie seems a bit forced.

TheWorst's actual posting didn't make any impression on me. A lot of the one-liner type stuff feels like things he could post as either alignment and I have a hard time reading people who employ the conversational one-liner style without deeper analysis. I think he's more likely than not scum through POE.

Ugh Nauci you’re sounding towny sometimes but you keep calling for my lynch and it doesn’t feel like you actually think I’m scum you just want me lynched and I want us both to be town but we’re never gonna be able to work together if we are, are we

I highly doubt this is something scum would say to someone they are scum reading/trying to lynch.

I disagree. I don't think Irrelephant as scum would need to lynch Nauci specifically. If he can get Nauci to back off with an emotional-type appeal, that's just as good for him.

she had like 2 posts and both of them were like "saem bro"
honestly can't give you more than that

I'd prefer if you can elaborate actually. Gemini has three posts of game relevant content none of which take any strong stances. What did you agree with?

Also, I feel like everyone has made a decision on duck based on his pred replacing out.

Who did this besides you and Stungun? You literally said in 470 that if TheWorst is scum, you're never playing with Gemini again.

It doesn't seem like no one had taken into consideration that she replaced out because of IRL reasons

and it didn't seem like anyone looked for proof in other games she might be in.

That being said, duck has 30 pages to read to catch up on and that's not an easy feat

The bolded is super weird because you're the one reading into her replace out. You're also very charitable towards TheWorst which makes me not feel good because you're both in my POE pool and you're stretching pretty hard to defend him. I dislike your Bernie and Nauci pushes as well.

intersting to note that mom votes nauci and duckling moves his vote off of mom onto nauci. i'm *pretty* sure from voting patterns that mom and duckling aren't scum together even though mom's defending him; the timing of their votes don't really feel like partners to me.

I noticed that too but my impression was that they wanted to swing momentum onto another viable-looking wagon as an alternative to TheWorst. I didn't like how Momrangal defended both Irrelephant and TheWorst and pushed their attackers and tried to get a wagon going elsewhere.

she feels less attached and engaged here and I cannot shake the feeling that her posting is pushing an agenda and specific preconceived stances rather than actively forming opinions fluidly as she goes.

If by "agenda," you mean Nauci's push on Irrelephant, how do you differentiate between scum pushing a agenda and town pushing their scumreads when they develop a read they feel confident in? I'm not sure what agenda is being served by going all-out on D1 talking about how good Irrelephant is as scum and hard-pushing a case and trying to convince a lot of people that their townread is wrong as opposed to going for an easier lynch, bringing up Irrelephant-paranoia later on. People are generally more willing to lynch good scumplayers out of paranoia if they are alive too long than on D1.

I've caught up to page 47. I'll take a break and continue later. I don't think I'll read the whole game today but I'll try to finish up before I leave for work tomorrow.

[BlackVoid]

I'm exhausted as hell from work but I have another day off tomorrow so I'm going to get current then.

[BlackVoid]

Oh dear lord. *FEELS INTENSFIES* has Gamma finally cracked?

I'm not sure what you mean by "cracked" so please clarify if I'm wrong. I'm assuming you meant that Gamma was frustrated with the scumreads on him. I'm drawing attention to this because this feels like you are vaguely making Gamma look bad when he was under pressure and piling on.

I actually have a feeling

VOTE: bernie sanders

This is a bad vote. Making a note of this because I feel like in every scenario where Irrelephant could take a stance or put down a vote, he always tends to scumread/vote townies and townread people in my POE pool. That's one of the reasons almost nothing he's said in the game has made me townread him. I've actually followed one of his games - it was a newbie game where he was town, he replaced in and immediately figured out the scum. His arguments and direction of reads made sense to me which is another reason I'm considering him not making sense as an indicator that he's scum and not just someone with a different way of approaching the game than I do. I'm going to go look back at the game after I finish catching up.

Bernie is not scum with (and is therefore less likely to be aligned with) math, shoshin, momrangal, not_mafia, skitter, or nauci, all but one of whom I'm townreading, and who can townread not_maf at this point? (sidenote: it's hilarious to me that not_maf is the perfect replacement to carry the torch of invisibility's playstyle)

His likely partners if he flips scum are keyser, gustavo, the worst, gamma, and errantparabola which is actually a pretty good lynchpool

This doesn't explain why Bernie is scum to begin with and his interactions with TheWorst actually make no sense as scum to scum. Weren't you townreading errantparabola?

Defending the worst comes across as towny to me here given how widely scumread tw was at the time - unless they’re scum together, in which case this seems like pretty bad play?

The problem with this is that none of the points Momra made in favor of TheWorst are actually good ones. I think I touched on this before but do you actually agree with the points Momra is making about TheWorst?

Nauci's list in 674 is definitely not great and I think there's a good chance its fabricated and the towniest part is her self-meta section

Can you talk about why because I had pretty much the exact opposite thought. I think the direction of her reads lines up decently enough with mine that it pushed her over to a townlean for me. But I hated the self-meta section. A lot of it felt fake although I'm more inclined to attribute it to playstyle at this point.

From a probabilistic perspective, scum says this more often than town I think, in the weighted sense
1048 is also bad

Disagree with both. I don't think the first one is indicative of alignment. I'm not sure what the scum-motivation is but since you're arguing probabilities instead of motivation, I'd like to see instances where you've seen scum say this if you can remember. Edit: you took it back in 1295 but I still want to know your basis for making it in the first place.

Two things about your reads in 1278: First, why are you townreading TheWorst? Second, I'm somewhat surprised skitter is in your lynchpool. I get people scumreading her if they have a completely different playstyle but you said yourself that your styles are similar. Was there anything particular that bothered you?

1231 doesn't feel like town reacting to a case scum is making on them. @Gamma do you feel grossly misrepped by town!Key or actually think scum!Key is pushing you? it feels like you're not really willing to commit to either take?

Why isn't "Gamma is unsure" an option here? Town doesn't know who scum is so will often be considering multiple possibilities.

hard read: Gamma and Gustavo are not the same alignment.

Why can't they both be town? If you think it's plausible for a town-Gustavo to hop onto a Gamma wagon the way he did, then it holds true regardless of Gamma's flip. Unless you're saying Gustavo's vote on Gamma is scummy but since Gamma is scum and you can't see it as partner-y, Gustavo is town. In that case, it's confirmation bias assuming Gamma is already flipping scum. Anyways, I'm going to compile all my questions to you later in a neater post after I see how you dealt with Gustavo D2.

K I was mostly voting Bernie to have a chance to sort him before voting a scumread but if he’s V/LA that’s pointless

What did you hope to accomplish by voting him that you couldn't by just asking him questions? You went to quite some detail about who could or couldn't be Bernie partners so I'm not sure I believe that it was a post with the intent to "sort him."

In general I think stuff like Ate and self meta and sentences like that and things that people tend to hold as null or scummy actually come from town more often

I think I understand what you are saying here and why you liked Nauci's self-meta. I actually agree that self-meta is often more likely to come from town. Stuff like "there's no way I'd do this as scum" or "I'd have played this completely differently if I were scum" especially when it's said in a way that's really genuine are indeed townie. My problem with Nauci is that it wasn't said as a response to being pressured or in response to an accusation. It felt more like listing off things about how good she is which I read more as false bravado at that point. Just randomly saying "I give zero fucks about how I'm perceived" didn't sit well with me.

K I’m fine with a Gamma lynch. He’s gotten worse under pressure and my reason for ever having a townread will either be proven or disproven before the lynch goes through. He definitely hasn’t been super helpful, and in his last dozen/two dozen posts he fees less like town trying to help make his own lynch worthwhile and more like scum trying to hide associatives

This is really generic and bad. He got worse under pressure? How? I actually thought he started scumhunting more under pressure whereas earlier he was pretty lurky and unreadable. I think if Irrelephant had seen Gamma's posts getting worse, he would actually comment on them.

We still have plenty of time before deadline. Thanks for the votes, Nauci. It's pretty helpful.

I thought it was a rather poor use of 3 hours tbh if she was strapped for time. It felt kinda showy. Why not use that limited time to develop reads? Vote counts are something that would typically be more useful later on with flips.

1363 by Bernie is a very townie post.

794 and surrounding were solid af fmpov. like I am not a fan of how I was positioned as scum for my predecessor and irl busyness here. it crossed my mind several times that I was an easy af push for scum to hide behind, and

I found Mom seeing things exactly the same way.

either she's town or has me pocketed hard but I'm not sure what scum!Mom's method is in WKing me here

LOL what? In the post you linked, Momrangal shaded your biggest rock-solid townread that you vouched for (Bernie) and talked about how he's pushing you for a mislynch. This is one of the scummiest posts in the game. Edit: you talk about this later in 1450 but I still don't follow. "Gross" is a bizarre way to describe a push on you that you don't find scummy. I'm gonna need you to explain exactly what these tells are because you're holding onto these "secret tells" that Bernie is town and that doesn't help read you at all.

1371 by Nauci lines up with my own reads well enough that I think it's more likely to be town.

I think Bernie and Mom aren't s/s but maybe also not t/t so I need to reread there

Why can't they be town/town independent of your read on Momrangal? I'm always puzzled when someone claimes that two people are the same or different alignments. How can you make such a determination? The only thing you can really read into pre-flip is whether two people can be scum together, or not.

fake hammer tho

What town motive is there to call out a fake-hammer? I can think of the obvious scum motive; that you don't want your Gamma mislynch slipping away because Gamma reacts in a towny way when he thinks he's been hammered.

@Skitter, I'll summarize thoughts on the Gamma lynch here since you asked. It didn't change my reads much. I still find Irrelephant/TheWorst scummy and am thinking Momrangal is potentially a scum wagon that didn't go through. But that's me saying that nothing rules out this existing scumread as opposed to developing a new one. I think Not_Mafia's and Gustavo's vote are both pretty bad but Gustavo's isn't bad enough to outweigh my stungun townread and Not_Mafia/Invisibility is in a null spot for me. I wish Errantparabola was made to take a stance and put a vote down.

Finished reading until page 65 (end of D1). I'm going to take a short break and then read D2.

[BlackVoid]

I’m estimating two scum on wagon and one off

Those of you off the wagon, since Gamma is town, which of the other four off the wagon seem most likely to be scum?

Why should a player arbitrarily restrict themselves to four people and try to figure out which of them is the scummiest? It seems like a nonsensical exercise when they could simply look at the whole game and figure out which of the players are the scummiest. How someone voted (or didn't vote) Gamma is definitely something that'll factor in but that's not a reason to pull a number you think is reasonable and scumhunt based on that number. This feels like you're trying to guide people into focusing on specific places when there's no pro-town reason to do it.

That's disappointing, because I was pretty confident that if I made mathdino metadive me he'd see i'm obvious town :>

I think in a vacuum, stuff like this is more likely to come from town. But I'm not sure this is justified considering you haven't posted much content at all. Can you explain what specifically you did here that's outside your scumrange? Have you played with MathDino? Making him meta-dive you implies that you haven't. That means it's applicable to any other player, not just Mathdino.

gamestate is highly highly consistent with Nauci and skitter being scum with Mom. in retrospect vesides recognising that I shouldn't be lynched she hasn't done a lot. I think I was being stupid yday.

Can you go more into your theory on Nauci/Momrangal? Also, why does skitter spend the end of D1 trying to lynch Momrangal if they are scum together?

Irrelephant is switching his votes around a lot to mostly scumread players. He votes Momrangal, then Not_Mafia, then skitter, then TheWorst, then Momrangal again, then Keyser. I'm conflicted on what this means. His votes don't really make sense as it's hard to believe that he's changing his mind so often on people who clearly can't be scum together and is helping a lot of wagons form. On the other hand, I feel like scum would not want to change their votes so often. Something I'll look into when I read his town and scum games.

All of my town reads scum read me which makes this a difficult game for me.

Minor towntell here.

It's very goal-oriented and that makes me think he's not playing with an agenda

How is Keyser's scumhunting goal-oriented? Regardless of his alignment, I got the opposite impression - that he's not going to a conclusion with it.

@BV RE: 1224
If you compare the urgency/emotion of Gamma during the first half of the game vs his charged last stand, you should be able to notice a significant difference in him letting his guard down. I think it actually made him feel more real/genuine to me, actually concerned about the game. If he’d began the game with a little more zest he’d be alive right now. Vulnerability can be a town trait.

Okay, just to be clear, you're saying that Gamma "cracked" in a way that made you think he was town?

I don't think it's helpful to discourage her efforts regardless of what you think about how she used the time. To be sure, it's not how I would have used 3 hours but to each their own. The important thing is that Nauci's probably town.

I'm not discouraging Nauci's efforts. I probably didn't phrase it well but I was pointing it out as something I thought was scummy. I agree that Nauci's probably town and I'm trying to solidify that read so I have a narrower pool but some of her stuff bothers me. I'll try and articulate it in a separate post.

@2152, Shoshin, I'll look and post my thoughts on that in a bit.

@2156, Nauci's points on Irrelephant are pretty dead on.

@Skitter, is TheWorst usually capable of reading you accurately? He doesn't seem to realize that you're town here and I'm trying to figure out whether it's alignment-indicative. How well/deeply does he normally read you?

I don't like self-meta as in I don't like when I read people's self meta, because it's super unreliable. But since not everyone shares that opinion, I provided some on myself, and with as many links as possible so it's something they can discover for themselves (made logistically easier) instead of taking my word for it.

I'm still not sure why you'd post it if you believe that it isn't a reliable way for others to read you anyways.

I don't want this day ending until BV is caught up.

I'm no longer townreadnig him because his catch up is taking way longer than it should.

Interestingly, I'm pretty sure I spent 20+ hours on this catchup (actual time spent reading/writing). I don't think I've ever spent this much time catching up before but I wanted to do this very thoroughly because I found over my past few games that the more detail I go into in a game, the more accurate my reads tend to be.

Okay, finally caught up. Give me a bit to organize my thoughts.

[BlackVoid]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
replaces into 104 page game, skips catchup to skim and goes for game impact
Alternating 9p he did it kinda all at once though it did take him many hours that day

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
here deadline is very soon on his replace so he crams and mostly just reads ISOs of wagons (because game impact is important)

BV what say yee?

I've actually been thinking quite a bit on what's the best way to catchup and sort of experiment accordingly. There are some pretty insane ones that you missed:
Newbie 1797 - My first game with skitter. I actually took a really long time to catch up (around ten days). In the time that I was still catching up, a scum player (Drixx) was lynched and I had no stance on him at all. I caught up the next day and was able to turn-around the scumreads on me but eventually ended up getting mislynched. I knew I had to figure out a way to catchup that was going to be effective. I could do a wall with a list of my reads. But the problem with that is that I'd have to do a succint, easily, digestible post with a summary of my thoughts and I figured it would be challenging to remember everything I've read and post it in a way that's appealing to read. I also figured I could link to posts and comment on them (like in the game I linked above and in the most recent scumgame of mine). But it loses context and nobody other than skitter would read it. Eventually I decided on quote/response style because I can go in-depth then and there and also have context. It would lead to some ugly posting but I could eventually summarize. Alternating 9P and the recent Newbie game were much shorter/less dense games than this one so the overall time was shorter.

I went for immediate game-impact in Alchemist's game because deadline was close. Deadline was actually close in most games I was replacing into so there was a sense of urgency. The only game I remember replacing into recently without the deadline being close is my scumgame. Also, I really didn't think it would take this long. I expected to spend some 6-8 hours on it, not over 20. I'm not one to replace into a game and say I won't read it. Anyways, how I catchup is something I've been thinking and trying to experiment with for a while. Regardless, I'm done now.

[BlackVoid]

Why is 2106 a town-tell, BV?

Because I think scum generally try to townread people who they can manipulate into townreading them. It could be unsuccessful of course but they can always change their reads. If a townie is tunneling a scum player, it's easy to tunnel back and get lost in a 1v1 or just play around them and work with other people. Town would be frustrated in that instance because their townreads are legitimately their townreads and if they can't work with them, that sucks. They can't just turn around and start working with their scumreads.

[BlackVoid]

Current reads:

skitter30
Shoshin
Bernie Sanders
Gustavo

Nauci
Keyser Soze

Not_Mafia

the worst
Errantparabola
Irrelephant11
Momrangal

[BlackVoid]

I don't think there's any way Skitter, Shoshin, or Bernie are flipping scum here. I think most of that sentiment holds true for Gustavo as well but I'm wary because I was spectating a game where he was scum against Shoshin. He acted so confident that Shoshin was flipping scum to the point where continuous analysis was useless and I remember thinking he could be a conf-biased townie. But combined with Stungun's very town posting, I'm more willing to throw Gustavo in the townpile here.

[BlackVoid]

I really want to put Nauci in that group as well. The major impetus behind my townread there is that a lot of her points against Irrelephant resonate with me. I also felt like her reads make sense generally. The reason I don't feel as confident is that I have the feeling that Nauci is the type of player who can replicate most of what she does as town as scum so I have hard time finding anything and saying this is definitely town and there's no chance she's scum the way I can for Rask (who admits to having an average at best scumgame), or Shoshin or Skitter. There's a lot of effort, yeah. But there's also a lot of things I could see good scum doing that I don't think are as useful/helpful for town. Like that extensive voting analysis. I haven't checked the time-stamps but it seems like she's using it to cover the gaps in her content posts. I was surprised when Shoshin found it useful and wondered if I might be wrong because at least one town player clearly thought it was useful. But why spend so much time tracking down everyone's votes? How is it even useful this early? If anything I'd actually conceal that information and bring it out later when scum flip.

I also think she has an unusually confident townread on Keyser Soze. I remember her putting him in her townreads early on and not really re-evaluating him based on anything he said. (I need to double-check this though to see if I'm not missing anything). I remember thinking if I'm wrong on my scumreads and Nauci is actually scum, Keyser was someone to take a closer look at.

I also think she's overstating how much she and Skitter are mindmelding. They both have different playstyles and ways of approaching reads. Skitter is significantly more logic based for instance that I can't help wondering if she's scum buddying.

But the worries still seem somewhat speculatory and paranoia-based but I just don't feel confident locking her in as a townread and putting it aside.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, Gustavo's town. I agree with your reads except the townread on Key and the strong scumread on Irrelephant.

Can you talk to me about those?

Yeah, I was going to go down the line but I want to cross-check with their previous games so give me a bit.

[BlackVoid]

I'll talk about Irrelephant first. So, the first time I saw him play was in Newbie 1869. I went back and checked if my first impression was right but basically his play was much more focused. He enters with a very confident "

Here's the deal everyone. Scum is OnTheMark, with a small outside chance of Lion.

" Then he keeps his focus on OnTheMark (who actually

was

scum), makes a case, discusses with Shoshin about GuiltyLion potentially being scum. It appears towards the end that he might be being swayed but eventually sticks to his original OnTheMark push and goes through with lynching him and winning the game for town. Key things I noticed were 1) Confidence, 2) Narrow focus (mostly on just one player), 3) Heavy casing and pushing for the lynch of that player.

Here on the other hand, I don't see the same kind of focus. He votes lots of people often as their wagons are picking up steam. He's a lot more hedgy. His arguments are much less strong and impactful. Irrelephant isn't really pushing for anyone's lynch. He's following the consensus. I feel like for someone who displayed the kind of confidence he did upon entering that newbie game, after 90 pages of insanely content-dense posting, he'd at least have some reads that he'd want to go out on a limb to push here. I also don't think his arguments for any of his pushes or townreads are strong at all (I've commented on what I didn't like in my catchup). I felt like based on that game, if he were town here, he'd be posting at least something that would resonate with me. He does have scumreads but they often keep changing in ways that I can't really get behind the thought process underlying them and there's an element of following the crowd. This happened a lot D2 with his vote switches. But also, his D1 stance on Gamma felt more like he just let the lynch go through as opposed to actively influence it whereas in his towngame, he was pretty heavy in making sure his voice was heard.

[BlackVoid]

Not yet. I have it open in another tab but I don't have context so it'll take a little while to parse.

[BlackVoid]

Heading to work but I'll be back at around midnight (~7hours) if anyone wants to discuss stuff. I'll compile my questions for TheWorst then as well.

[BlackVoid]

@Nauci, can you elaborate on your Keyser read on more specifics? Like Shoshin said, a lot of the stuff you pointed out is pretty generic and doesn't take into account Keyser's odd playstyle.

[BlackVoid]

@skitter, I'm going to look back to see where TheWorst pushed you as scum. His reads are pretty unbelievable (you, Nauci, Momrangal scum together). I'm guessing that as town, he's a perceptive enough player to know that it's an unlikely team. How likely is he to push difficult lynches as scum? Do you have experience with his scumgame?

[BlackVoid]

The thing that makes me paranoid about the gamestate is that the people I find scummy (like Errant, TW) are okay with a Momrangal wagon and Irrelephant is okay with both. Gamestate-wise, Momra/TW are the two wagons likely to go through so I'm no longer considering them to be partners. One could be scum but not both. I really want to re-evaluate the people outside my strongest townpile but who are not actively in my scumpile which is Nauci/Keyser/Not_Mafia.

[BlackVoid]

I'm re-evaluating Key right now and it's not a strong read. I can summarize when I finish but if you wanted to know right now, you can see my reactions to some of his posts earlier in the game in my catchup.

[BlackVoid]

I thought Bernie's turn on Gamma could only come from town, it was too dangerously attention-grabbing to come from scum (re:bernie bro)

He asked us who are less-experienced to trust him. idk, this setup could include information I don't have that he does. I townread him, I only marginally want the worst dead over mom, and

he asked us to BoP him if it doesn't work out.

I'm not like giving my vote to Bernie, I'm just not voting the worst this game day because I somewhat trust Bernie.

What does the bolded entail exactly? What are you going to do if Momrangal flips town? Suspect Bernie?

[BlackVoid]

Reading Elephant's scumgame and private topic, I didn't find any smoking gun that I could use to figure out his alignment here one way or another. He didn't switch his votes around a lot. So, that's something new he's doing here and hasn't done it before as either alignment.

[BlackVoid]

I tried looking to see what Invisibility's scumrange is but I can't really rule him out either. He's posted too little overall and there's been some rehashing of other's points for me to take him out of the POE pool.

Basically, the only things I feel confident about here is that my four strong townreads (skitter, shoshin, Bernie, Gustavo) are town. Gustavo's latest posting helped eliminate any doubts I had.

Other than that, I could see any of the remaining seven people as plausibly scum to varying degrees. I don't know if I have enough time to rule out more people today.

I'm going to do a quick ISO of each of those players and probably vote within TheWorst/Momrangal when I get home from work tonight. I think errantparabola is skating under the radar and not attracting as much attention as he should. @Skitter, I'll get back to you on the links you posted for TheWorst. Also, thoughts on Errantparabola?

[BlackVoid]

It might actually be a good idea for TheWorst/Momrangal to claim. If we're going to wait all the way until intent is given, we're probably going to scramble towards deadline and it seems pretty obvious that those are our likely options.

[BlackVoid]

BV, what do you think of the way Nauci started questioning Key after we asked her to explain her townread on him? Doesn't seem towny to you?

She still didn't give any actual reasoning for the original townread though beyond the generalities. If she's scum townreading a partner or townreading a townie but didn't think through the reasons much in depth, I could see her potentially "re-evaluating." I didn't find it necessarily scummy, just not something I found indicative of alignment.

[BlackVoid]

It might actually be a good idea for TheWorst/Momrangal to claim. If we're going to wait all the way until intent is given, we're probably going to scramble towards deadline and it seems pretty obvious that those are our likely options.

Excuse me
We're not getting 2 claims

Blackvoid I thought you would know better than this wtf

I guess mom can claim if she wants but tbh I really don't think I'd believe any PR claim that comes out of her to begin with.

I think people undervalue how important it is to have time to discuss claims. I know it's a probably controversial opinion but I don't value concealing their claims more than I value that additional day or two we'll have to talk about them. We can then reach a consensus as opposed to last-minute deadline panic with half the playerlist not here.

[BlackVoid]

@Rask, I'm going to do an ISO of both Momrangal and TheWorst before putting down a vote but I'm actually leaning towards TheWorst at this point. Is there anything meta-wise I should know that makes him less likely to be scum? You noted yourself that his view on the gamestate makes no sense at all and his switch to Momrangal saying that he's being wagoned as a counter to that and pushing Nauci/Skitter/Momrangal as the team is really kind of a stretch. I could see Momrangal townreading him for silly reasons but the way he latched onto that and townread her back is I think even worse. Basically, Momrangal called you scummy for pushing him and his response was that her view of the gamestate is totally relatable or something of that sort which makes no sense at all.

This kinda reminds of you pushing GM in our last game and not wanting to lynch Sotty7 because a GM scumflip would clear you whereas a Sotty7 scumflip would still keep pressure on you. I hope that's not your motivation because I don't think either of Momrangal/TheWorst flipping either alignment is going change my read on you. So, I just want to work with your straightforward thoughts on them.

[BlackVoid]

I didn't vote because Not_Mafia quickhammered before I could. I don't throw my vote around until I'm sure I want to lynch someone. I find that it has much more impact that way.

That's such a ridiculous POE I don't believe anyone could sincerely come up with that. But go ahead and explain your VCA.

Why are you still scumreading Skitter after Momrangal's scumflip while clearing other people for much more nebulous reasons like "VCA?"

[BlackVoid]

I'm leaving for work in around 20 minutes but I'll be back at midnight and all day tomorrow to go through each player's interactions with Momrangal one by one in-depth.

In the meantime, I want TheWorst's full claim and complete night action list to check against any crumbs he made. I think any potential benefits of hiding it from scum is outweighed by having more information to read him by. I also want to see ErrantP do a full/catchup analysis of where his reads are at (preferably before I do mine so I can read into it).

[BlackVoid]

Before you go who’s your gut scumlist

You, TheWorst, and ErrantP are the ones I find scummiest. I wanted to cross-check interactions with Momrangal based on flip but I was sick during the night phase so that didn't pan out so I'm going to get to it tonight and tomorrow.

[BlackVoid]

@ErrantP, okay let's "connect." I agree that skitter30, Bernie, Gustavo are town although Gustavo for different reasons than you so we're actually on the same page here. But let's talk about your second tier townreads. All of the reasons you posted for them are pretty vague and stuff that could easily come from either alignment that you just seem to be choosing to interpret as town.

Nauci is town for early game reasons and your intuition. Can you explain that some more?

Irrelephant is town to you because he said he was sheeping Bernie on Momrangal. I can understand the argument of "why would scum say they are sheeping when they would want cred for a bus?" But it's not really a strong enough argument to outweigh an existing scumread. I could see scum using that as a reason to hop off because it's a weak reason to begin with. But I'll think this through more when I analyze him in depth.

Keyser-Soze - holding onto an early game townread. A lot has happened since early game though. I'd like to see you comment on what you think of his recent posts. Have they made you doubt that townread or mostly re-inforced them? It would be really helpful if you can get into some specifics because it's a lot easier for me to read people when they give concrete reasons rather than be really vague.

I feel like you and Nauci are looking for a reason to townread Irrelephant rather than analyze his posts and objectively reach a conclusion.

[BlackVoid]

@errantp, I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding my tone. I wasn't talking to you as a concession. I was glad that you said you wanted to "connect" because I saw it as an opportunity to have an insightful discussion. I put it in quotes because it was your word and not one I've seen used before, not because I thought it was dubious or that I was doing it reluctantly.

I'm trying to see a worldview where Nauci is commenting on salient points and "nuanced" posts but the majority of Nauci-posting that has made any impression on me is:

1. Her paranoia of Irrelephant. She spends the entire D1 warning us about how he played well in their game together and that his posts here indicate scum but often mysteriously pushes him to a null/town read for reasons that I can't follow.
2. Her Keyser townread. Never explained outside of vague terms and it's still a mystery to me how she's so sure that he's town.
3. She's also consistently playing up the fact that she and skitter see things the same way. But they often have different views on key reads. For example skitter has Irrelephant and Keyser as scummy whereas Nauci townreads them. My point here is more that they have different thought processes that reach different conclusions and Nauci playing up how closely they are linked together doesn't seem genuine to me.

When I said you and Nauci were looking for a reason to townread Irrelephant, I didn't mean it in an alignment-indicative way. I should probably have clarified that. Town can want to read someone as town and just interpret their posts in a town way.

[BlackVoid]

Reading BV’s D2 catchup posts, tbh he wrote some very good posts on scum-Mom and scum-TW (both scum in isolation) But ended up concluding both couldn’t be scum (due to VCA?).

Not VCA. It felt to me like the general concensus was that one of them would be lynched. I find it pretty unlikely for concensus to just converge on two scum. A much more likely scenario is at least one of them is town. On the other hand, I found TheWorst scummy in a vacuum so I'm trying to decide which scenario makes more sense.

[BlackVoid]

Another note as I'm doing this (how is this taking soooo long, please bv if you're town never make these giant walls again):

BV says an awful lot about Mom for someone who is jumping in brand new.

Actually, looking back at his first post, he says he had been "spectating but skimming pretty hard". So maybe he focused on Mom because he knew Mom was the biggest wagon. Still, though... Mom had very little content overall and it feels like a solid 1/5 of what BV had to say while catching up *happened to be* about Mom. Imo this suggests intentional distancing after checking in with the scum thread, not genuine writing-as-you-go.

@Blackvoid, would you say you were intentionally focusing on specific players when you did your readthrough, or just commenting on individual things as you felt the need?

pedit: who said you were less engaged? Definitely untrue

I focused on Momrangal because she was one of the people I thought was scummy when I was skimming the game. When I found the posts that I remembered not liking, I did my best to explain in-depth why.

I had some initial impressions on some players. I already had skitter as strong town. I don't remember whether or not I was already townreading Shoshin but I think I was. You were actually one of the people who I was neutral on and was expecting to see some good posting from (based on following that towngame of yours) and was surprised how little of what you said were things that made sense to me.

[BlackVoid]

@skitter, how likely do you think is a team with Nauci/Irrelephant? It's one of those possibilities I was thinking of because both of them have scumread the other a lot but they tend to change to a townread and find a different player to push. Considering their reads on each other, I expect more actual pushing but there's very little of actually trying to get a wagon going on the other/trying to lynch them. Obviously that would mean TheWorst would be town but I get the feeling of both trying to set up for a TheWorst townflip. Irrelephant claiming that TW is scum and wanting him lynched today but also pre-emptively making pushes on me even though he says it's unlikely we both are scum.

[BlackVoid]

@Nauci, what games of mine have you read?

[BlackVoid]

Same question to Irrelephant if you have read any.

[BlackVoid]

Momrangal was my strongest scumread throughout the game. I didn't have anything positive to say there because she didn't do anything that looked town-motivated. I expected her to flip scum so I was on the lookout for who was townreading her for bad reasons or looked to be partnered with her.

What made me think TheWorst was scummier towards the end was his reaction to me saying he should claim. I proposed a way for us to use the last few days of D2 analyzing claims so we aren't scrambling at the last minute. His response of "you wish scumboy" really convinced me that he wasn't interested in being helpful. I was also at that point trying to figure out which of Momra/TheWorst were scum if only one of them were scum. While I thought Momrangal's defense of TheWorst and attack on Bernie was bad, I thought TheWorst's response by saying that she amazingly understood exactly what he was thinking (or something like that) when he vouched for Bernie being town to be

even

scummier. It felt like scum taking advantage of a townie townreading them for dumb reasons. Clearly it's not the case and my original Momrangal read was right.

[BlackVoid]

I'm really not feeling well so content will have to wait for a bit, sorry guys.

[BlackVoid]

I think there's been a bit too much paranoia about my catchup. I don't agree with skitter's assessment of my catchup being non-alignment-indicative. I actually think it very much was. I spent a lot of time (over twenty hours) on it which is something I'd never do as scum. In the game that skitter linked earlier, I made a brief catchup post and after that, never really went back to expand in detail about anything. Because I didn't really care what happened in the game. I obviously think skitter having some paranoia about me being able to do all that as scum is coming from a genuine place. But some people (Nauci and I'll check whoever else said this) have been *very* intent on pushing the "catchup should be disregarded" narrative which makes me think I was onto something there. It's either that or they are worried that if anyone reads too deeply into the catchup, they'll figure out that I'm town and can't discredit me anymore. I also think it's kinda bizarre that Nauci just keeps repeating that she's paranoid of me but never really trying to read me.

[BlackVoid]

Sorry but think you're actually just scum this time my dude

Why would he quickhammer a partner without giving her a chance to claim? I even said that Momra/TheWorst should both claim. I think Not_Mafia could easily just pretend to be offline for a bit longer as opposed to hammer a partner for towncred that he may or may not get.

[BlackVoid]

I don't think his analysis has been super AI

This for example doesn't feel at all genuine. I actually think everything I say is alignment-indicative but even from an outside perspective, there's a LOT of content that I posted that you can have an opinion on. Alignment-wise.

[BlackVoid]

@errantp, since you're here, a quick question: if you're town with a neighborizer role, don't you think it would be helpful to neighborize your strongest townreads to discuss reads with them privately? What were you hoping to get from neighborizing TheWorst outside of learning his role and why did you want his role anyways?

[BlackVoid]

@bv: it's def within his town meta to lolhammer when given the opurtunity; and if scum!him thought she was going to get lynched for sure he might have just hammered anyways to be on the wagon

That's fair. I could see him hammering to get people to townread him. I'm not ruling him out. I just think it's less likely that he would pass on the chance to get PRs outed.

For reference, here's a game I replaced into where he was scum. It was the old newbie setup. He fake-claimed 1-shot BP. Then based on the reactions to his claim,

he figured out both PRs

and crumbed it for his partner to see. I really think he's a lot smarter than he lets on. That's why I feel like he wouldn't quickhammer in a way that's suboptimal for his team.

[BlackVoid]

I'm reading Momrangal's ISO right now so I'll post comments on interactions as I read them.

On TheWorst, I actually think there are some things that point away from him being scum. Like the last sentence of 1297. It seems like Momra caught a crumb from TheWorst and used that as a reason to divert away from him knowing he has a claim up his sleeve to prevent his mislynch. 794 on Bernie - feels like she's trying to set up Bernie for a TheWorst townflip. 2261 is another post where Momra picks up on TheWorst's soft claim and it feels genuine enough as not a scum-scum interaction.

I think the vote on Nauci in 799 is pretty odd. I don't know what it says about Nauci's alignment but I'm going to read the context.

I also want to point out that Momra reluctantly backed off of her Invisibility push after Shoshin pushed her hard on it suggests that Not_Mafia is town.

[BlackVoid]

I'm defending Not_Mafia for good reasons. You haven't commented on those reasons. You're throwing shade AT the fact that I'm defending him to try to make me look suspicious but haven't actually engaged me on WHY I'm defending him. I'm unsure on TheWorst. I'm still thinking it over. Where did he claim to have a result on me? I'm pretty sure he's not waiting for any response from me. He's never tried to honestly engage me so far besides silly responses like "lol" or "I hate walls."

Why are you continuing to push this "not voting" narrative when I've explained why I'm not voting? Why should I be voting at this time? I haven't decided who I want to lynch. When I do, you'll know. You also claim to have looked through my games (I think? I might have mixed up you and Nauci) but if you look at my most recent completed towngame, you'll see that I didn't vote at all at any point in the game.

[BlackVoid]

If me, skitter, Bernie, and Gustavo can all trust each other, the odds of this game being a town win go way up.

Outside of that I'm not really sure which of the other six players are scum. I do think Not_Mafia is the likeliest to be town among them but it's not as solid as my other reads. That still leaves about five people that I need to sort through: Nauci, Irrelephant, Keyser Soze, TheWorst, ErrantP.

[BlackVoid]

I don’t think I can trust you. I actually think you’re a good chance at being mom’s partner.

You should. I've already put much more into this game than I've ever done as scum over whole games. As scum, I would almost certainly have voted Momrangal early on because looking good is more important than being right. I was unsure between Momrangal and TheWorst and really wanted to make sure I made the right decision there. I would

never

have made a post like 2423 as scum. I wouldn't spend a whole catchup pushing my partner and then flush any potential towncred I could get down the toilet by backing off at the last moment. I also didn't "disappear." I went to sleep and when I woke up, I found out N_M hammered. I don't think I can convince you that not voting until you're ready isn't anti-town but since you know for a fact, I hold onto my vote, you should see that it isn't alignment indicative.

[BlackVoid]

If me, skitter, Bernie, and Gustavo can all trust each other, the odds of this game being a town win go way up.

Outside of that I'm not really sure which of the other six players are scum. I do think Not_Mafia is the likeliest to be town among them but it's not as solid as my other reads. That still leaves about five people that I need to sort through: Nauci, Irrelephant, Keyser Soze, TheWorst, ErrantP.

You trust Not Mafia more than me?

I could understand Gustavo being higher than me (due to Shoshin saying he protected Gustavo, and we had no NK on N1)... but this just takes the biscuit Do you know Not Mafia is town? Because he should be in everyone's null zone right now.

I think you should present your reads using that graph Errant designed

You really should read the thread more closely. I explained my Not_Mafia townread over the last page. You can't arbitrarily claim that people should be in everyone's null zone. The whole point of this game is to figure out alignments. When you can't do it through their content (such as with Not_Mafia), you do it through how they interacted with flipped scum, what their predecessors did, and how flipped scum interacted with them. It's a fact that Momrangal started off making a hard push on Invis. It's a fact that N_M hammered Momrangal before she could draw out a claim. Those are points indicating slight town.

My read on you is actually pending until I read through your ISO with flip in mind. I'm not yet sure whether I trust you more than N_M. I'll figure out an order to my reads once I read through everyone and make a list.

[BlackVoid]

1. You can find it hilarious all you like but I have a pretty hard time seeing any of those three as scum and I also have a hard time getting a good townread out of the remaining players because none of you have thought processes that I can easily follow.

If NM is scum, he rescued Mom from having to fakeclaim in a way that could suggest something about the setup and/or she was just gonna claim vt; also, *everyone* knew tw was crumbing PR, so what would NM have to gain from waiting? rhetorical question; nothing.

2. This is actually not true. If Momrangal didn't want to give away anything about the scum roles, she could have fake-claimed a role that gives us no information. Why on earth would N_M "rescue" Momrangal from fake-claiming? The whole point when you're run up as scum is to either prevent your lynch that day or draw out a counterclaim by fake-claiming. Scum very, very rarely ever claim VT at L-1 and that's a pretty bad move. If he let Momrangal fake-claim, and attention turned towards TheWorst, he would at least have another solid claim. Then it would be a toss-up which one is less believable.

3. Can you quote where exactly either Errant or TheWorst said that TheWorst had a result on me?

[BlackVoid]

I don’t think I can trust you. I actually think you’re a good chance at being mom’s partner.

You should. I've already put much more into this game than I've ever done as scum over whole games. As scum, I would almost certainly have voted Momrangal early on because looking good is more important than being right. I was unsure between Momrangal and TheWorst and really wanted to make sure I made the right decision there. I would

never

have made a post like 2423 as scum. I wouldn't spend a whole catchup pushing my partner and then flush any potential towncred I could get down the toilet by backing off at the last moment. I also didn't "disappear." I went to sleep and when I woke up, I found out N_M hammered. I don't think I can convince you that not voting until you're ready isn't anti-town but since you know for a fact, I hold onto my vote, you should see that it isn't alignment indicative.

Reading the posts, I really don’t feel this is true. I honestly think you were torn about bussing and was hoping the wagon shifted. You never expected me to vote which set up for a quick hammer.

You already voted before I made that post.

[BlackVoid]

It isn't scummy because "us four" can in fact make a win much more likely. POE is a pretty strong tool at finding scum. If I can get all four of us to trust each other, then yes, odds of winning go up because it narrows down the scum. Once we have another scumflip, we have more information to rule out more people etc.

N_M hasn't got any towncred except from me. He was a leading wagon with four votes. You also skated over the fact that that scum rarely if ever claim VT and quickhammering a partner because "they were going to claim VT" makes zero sense.

I think I misread that. That does imply he has a result on me. Not sure what "response" you are expecting though. If he claims a guilty, I'll know he's scum and bury him. Otherwise, it doesn't really affect my read much. When he actually full-claims, I'll work it into my read. He was actually crumbing D1 that I should be investigated though so I can believe his choice of target.

[BlackVoid]

Oh so I had. I still don’t see why you didn’t vote or want to vote there. Especially with the comment you made today

Why I didn't vote anyone at the end of D2? I planned on waking up, reading through both Momrangal's and TheWorst's ISOs one last time and either put down a vote on TheWorst or declare intent on Momrangal. I just wanted that extra time to think about which way I wanted to go. I wasn't in the game very long so I felt if I could talk to people and play in real time, I could get some better insights into the game. That's why I asked Rask to elaborate and tell me why TheWorst was a bad lynch from his POV.

Why was I leaning towards TheWorst in that post? I touched on this but I really hated how when Momrangal pushed Bernie, TheWorst said that her posts were great and that he could totally relate here.

794 and surrounding were solid af fmpov. like I am not a fan of how I was positioned as scum for my predecessor and irl busyness here. it crossed my mind several times that I was an easy af push for scum to hide behind, and I found Mom seeing things exactly the same way.

either she's town or has me pocketed hard but I'm not sure what scum!Mom's method is in WKing me here

^ This one. In 794, Momrangal was actually shading Bernie and saying that Bernie's push on TheWorst was scummy. But TheWorst had Bernie as his strongest townread. It didn't make sense. It looked like he was taking advantage of a townie incorrectly townreading him. Obviously, that interpretation was wrong and Momra was scum. But not knowing their alignments, it looked like that at the time so I thought TheWorst may be a better lynch.

[BlackVoid]

TheWorst wouldn't counterclaim Momrangal.

Look, here's what was going to happen if he didn't quickhammer and someone declared intent: Momrangal would claim whatever she claims, probably a powerful PR.

Then either
scenario A)
1. People will be reluctant to lynch Momrangal and run up TheWorst and he claims. Then we come back and lynch Momrangal (good for scum because they then know his exact role).
2. People find Momrangal's claim to be more credible and lynch somebody else either TheWorst or someone entirely different (good for scum because they avoided a scum lynch).

scenario B)
A townie counterclaims Momrangal's role and Momrangal is lynched. (Good for scum because they have now outed another town PR).

Every way you look at it, Not_Mafia LITERALLY NOT POSTING AT ALL THAT NIGHT would have been more beneficial to scum than his quickhammer. He didn't have to do anything to get these benefits for the scumteam.

How do you not see this and continue to brush it under the rug with "you know Not_Mafia is town?" That feels like you're trying to set up for suspicion on me after he flips town which you know he will.

"lolhammering is what he always does as his NAI meta" is ignoring the context here. I linked a game earlier that shows there actually is a method to his madness. He's not just going to lolhammer a buddy randomly because "lol."

[BlackVoid]

I'm not so confident though. I think he's most likely town yeah and I don't want him lynched. But it's a small data point that I'm reading a lot into and I'm aware of that. He's not the same level townread as the other three.

As for Momrangal and Invisibility sitting on each other, Invisibility's was an RVS vote so I don't have anything to read into it. As for Momrangal's push on him, I haven't ruled out the possibility of her pushing a partner but I think it's the less reasonable explanation than her just pushing a townie that felt like lynchbait that she was trying to take advantage of and backed off when Shoshin gave her a hard time for it.

I have to leave now but I'll get back to you on your VCA later today.

[BlackVoid]

Quick post before I go, I haven't "inserted myself" into a townblock. I'm forming a townblock now with my strongest townreads so we can POE the game.

Momrangal's having my slot as leaning town when my pred was just rapping is kinda weird actually. Maybe she just didn't want to push him because she knows he can look pretty town when town.

[BlackVoid]

@Irrelephant, outside of me, who else are you scumreading?

[BlackVoid]

Brief skim I don't know if I agree with Irrelephant but I like the push and didn't like bvs responses

VOTE: bv

Sorry I'll be back to more analysis when o can think straight

This is not a town post. My most genuine gamesolving attempts actually happened in the most recent pages. I don't believe town says this.

I think I'm fairly sure I want to lynch either Nauci or Irrelephant today but I'm going to double check the others too.

[BlackVoid]

so basically I have a guilty but it might b soft, and I have greatly enjoyed watching people's reactions

can anyone who believes they might have been soft guiltied please discreetly alert me to this fact?

Since you're implying that you investigated me, there's literally one role I can think if that might get you a result that doesn't necessarily clear me. In most other scenarios, you wouldn't.

[BlackVoid]

So, I looked over Errantparabola's posting. There are some things I liked. I think the claim and neighborizing TheWorst felt pretty town because I feel like mafia's go-to option as a neighborizer would be to neighborize a "townread" and fool them in the neighborhood. That has an astounding success rate. I also think his play around TheWorst claim was genuine. The delayed part of the neighborhood also feels like a town modifier which makes it weaker.

What I don't like about his posting are the mysterious townreads on Nauci (claiming that Nauci is making good points and focused on getting reads is flat-out wrong. The townread on Irrelephant is also not understandable). Mysteriously having me at the bottom of his readslist is weird too.

His progression on Momrangal is a bit too one-dimensional. He consistently suspects Momrangal for reasons that aren't very strong, hops on mid-wagon and stays there, pointing out pre-flip associatives. I couldn't help thinking that if I were scum, this is how I would bus.

So, I'm pretty conflicted here.

[BlackVoid]

It's also interesting that Nauci claims that Irrelephant's MO as scum is to attack strong town players to keep lynch options open and that's exactly what they're both doing here by attacking me. Because they're caught and have to push back.

Irrelephant's scumread on skitter is actually even less believable because skitter was not only obvious town but a major pusher behind the Momrangal wagon. The latter point should convince even people who don't know her that she's town. It almost feels like he needs to discredit both of us to stop us from collaborating and lynching one of him or Nauci.

Nauci on the other hand hard-townreads skitter but I found it really curious that she never asks skitter why she's townreading me or scumreading Irrelephant. She's just going along with her convenient reads of me-scum and Irrelephant-town while continuing to go on about how mind-meld she and skitter have been. If Nauci was town, there would at least be a "why are you townreading BV?" I don't feel like she's listening to both viewpoints to make a decision but just sheeping Irrelephant because that's the convenient read.

Based purely on who is more scummy, I'd actually say Nauci edges out Irrelephant as the scummiest.

I'll look at both of their interactions with Momrangal when I get back from work and put a vote down.

[BlackVoid]

I also think my slot may have been shot N1. I didn't really consider it a real possibility before because I hadn't replaced in by then and the only thing my pred did was rap and I thought that was a pretty bad way to play 1-shot BP. But he also softed having a PR at some points by claiming that he was laying low and that might have been what drew the kill.

Nauci making such a big deal about it and pointedly asking me about it feels like inside info.

[BlackVoid]

It also makes sense. My pred suspected Nauci and Nauci later said she thought he was good or something.

[BlackVoid]

@Irrelephant, if you wanted me to comment on 2458, 2459 and 2461, you actually say that Not_Mafia is less likely scum and you don't make any strong conclusions there? Can you specify what you want me to talk about?

[BlackVoid]

Kinda bad timing because I have to go to work. Are you going to be around at midnight or so?

[BlackVoid]

VOTE: TheWorst

I'm pretty sure 1-shot BP doesn't show as having a gun and besides Rask also has the result of TheWorst not visiting me.

@skitter, MathDino didn't soft directly but he was implying that he was laying low in 345 and 356.

[BlackVoid]

Also, Rask take a breath and stop going off the deep end. The number of times you voted me this game is giving me whiplash and it feels so ironic that after our last game where I misread you, you are intent on misreading me to the point you're creating intricate scenarios where I'm scum even after a TheWorst scumflip.

TheWorst -> Nauci wins it I'm pretty sure.

[BlackVoid]

L-1 by the way and perfectly okay with hammer.

[BlackVoid]

Something I wanted to comment on right before I left, I had some misgivings about my Irrelephant read. Basically came down to feeling like there was some genuineness behind his push on me/trying to figure out my alignment. It's going to take some substantial re-evaluation of the game to actually consider a town-Irrelephant worldview considering how certain I was most of the game but I did feel like Nauci was taking advantage of the fact that me and Irrelephant were tunneling each other and tried to pocket him and push back on me since I wanted her dead anyway.

Errant's reaction was very town. That's not even counting the fact that I don't think he and TheWorst orchestrated this after all that happened.

So, here's where I'm at:

skitter30
Bernie Sanders
Gustavo
Errantparabola

Not_Mafia

Irrelephant11
Keyser Soze

Nauci
the worst

First four are confident townreads. Not_Mafia not so much. I explained why in an earlier post. Irrelephant and Keyser are null for different reasons. Irrelephant because of what I just said. Keyser is someone I've decided that I want to read through at some point and just been putting it off forever because of how he formats his posts makes me really not want to do it. So, I'll give those a once over.

Nauci latching onto Rask's paranoia and claiming that me and TheWorst are BOTH scum together is pretty much exactly in line with how I'd expect scum to behave. She can't really afford to let me be widely townread with how much I'm pushing her and she can't nightkill me because she's got to do Rask first because of tracker claim.

I'll definitely look through all four of N_M, Keyser, Irrelephant, Nauci before making a final decision tomorrow but I'd be surprised if it wasn't just Nauci.

[BlackVoid]

Can people stop being dumb and voting someone who should be essentially clear after yesterday?

Okay, so Irrelephant and Keyser are basically confirmed town regardless of Nauci's alignment because there's only one scum left.

There are two people you should never be lynching - me and skitter. Skitter is obviously town. My interactions with TheWorst, my play in general and my meta pretty much all clear me. I need to go to work early today but when I come back, I'll delineate exactly why. Removing myself from the POE pool pretty much ensures town win.

Scum are between {Nauci, Gustavo, Not_Mafia, errantparabola}. I kind of like this new development because I'm townreading errant and Gustavo. So, this pretty much leaves Nauci and Not_Mafia as the only potentially likely scum.

Initial instinct is that Nauci probably wouldn't fake-claim Neapolitan at this point. I'm not sure how much to believe this so I'll look through her posts again. But I feel pretty sure Not_Mafia has to be the final scum.

[BlackVoid]

I'm going to engage with your multiple reasons after I come back from work tonight. I don't have time to write a super long wall right now. TheWorst knew he was likely going down and he needed to take out a threatening townie who wasn't being as widely townread as he should be before he went down to put scum in a better place. Guiltying a partner at that point is essentially throwing the game. He was never going to survive by himself. But delaying his lynch for a day to set his partner up is much better scenario for scum.

I didn't think my slot would have been shot N1 based on play because all my pred did was rap. But later I saw him claiming he wanted to lay low and figured he might have been because scum thought he was a PR. Occam's razor, more likely my slot was shot because they thought he was a PR than that Gustavo's slot was shot.

I think Not_Mafia is more likely scum than you at this point. I think my interpretation of his posts was wrong. That's probably where we should be lynching today.

[BlackVoid]

Someone please unvote until I have time to sit down and figure this game out. I'm at L-2 and I don't want any chance of somebody else coming in, voting me, and Not_Mafia being able to hammer.

Unless something stupid happens like me getting quicklynched, town very likely has this in the bag. I just lost a towngame that I should have won and it'll be annoying to lose again if something has been overlooked.

Stop carelessly throwing your votes around putting someone at L-2 in the first few hours of the day phase. I'm going to go in-depth and address all the suspicion on me later tonight.

[BlackVoid]

I don't "still" clear Gus. I've never "cleared" Gus. He was a strong townread based purely on his play and his predecessor's play. Other people have cleared him based on the NK. I've never used it as a reason for thinking he's town. Now that he's one of the only people who can be scum, I'll relook at him but I doubt that'll change my read. There are some points where he just threw in the towel when he wasn't getting his Shoshin lynch and I don't think it's possible scum do that.

[BlackVoid]

One of you guys unvote me for now so nothing dumb happens please. You can put your votes back on if you're still convinced I'm scum at the end of D4.

[BlackVoid]

Just read all of Nauci's posts. As perplexing as Nauci is, I think she's town. I'll deconstruct that post when I get back from work in around 10 hours. I don't really see myself lynching anyone other than Not_Mafia.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[BlackVoid]

the one thing that's holding me back here is that nm is super disengaged from the game and idk if tw banks the game on nm given how out of it he is

I've seen N_M win games for scum despite being disengaged because people write off his anti-town play as "that's just N_M."

Remember, TheWorst isn't expecting Nauci to clear Keyser and Irrelephant. He'd be expecting Nauci and Irrelephant to both look pretty suspicious upon my flip. In his ideal scenario, I'd get lynched D3 followed by him getting quicklynched D4. Then there would be six people left with all three of Nauci, Irrelephant, and Keyser alive. Nobody had been paying Not_Mafia a lot of attention before.

Also, N_M just gave up so why haven't we ended the game?

Town N_M is trolly but he won't vote conf-town. @Irrelephant and Gustavo.

[BlackVoid]

Town N_M is trolly but he won't vote conf-town. @Irrelephant and Gustavo.

i literally just saw him do this as town

your responses are actually pinging me a lot

was that just hammer?

Okay, that's interesting. I've always assumed as that as town, there's some gamesolving going on behind the scenes which he just doesn't show us. At least that's what it looked like in the game I played scum against him.

I still get the feeling that he has given up and wants the game to end. I don't know who else it would be if it isn't N_M. I can look back at Gustavo again but I really don't think as scum, he's going to get so frustrated that people ignored his Shoshin push that he almost just checks out of the game.

[BlackVoid]

bv i'm really just getting the vibe that you want to push this lynch through?

Yeah, I want to push N_M through. Maybe I'm not playing completely optimally by not going through an extensive analysis of clearing Gustavo before I do it. I think it's ridiculous people are actually voting me over him and I'd hate to give this scumteam a free mislynch on me even if they wind up losing.

I haven't read the game closely enough to see what the context is. But N_M's posts here just gave me the impression that he knows he's caught and the game is done so might as well get lynched and move onto the next one.

Is there anyone I should be seriously considering outside of N_M?

[BlackVoid]

@skitter, you have the impression of me never being impatient because a scenario like that never happened in the games we played together. In some scenarios, I do get impatient. Example: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 0#p9486237 (read my posts about Mulch). You have a good idea of how I play but you haven't seen my full townrange.

I was going to respond to Nauci but then I actually caught up and got distracted with more recent posts.

[BlackVoid]

The last scum is probably BV because

:

[*] He claimed 1-shot BP. In the context of this game, that's the least falsifiable claim: we can't be sure who scum shot at N1, and we can't ask him for results on anything. Funny that of all the different possibilities, he claimed one of the very few things that aren't falsifiable directly, except by process of elimination on how many scum there are.

Yeah, it's really funny. I just claimed the role I had. I can't do anything about it's lack of results or falsifiability. (I'll give serious responses to your other points though).

[*]My one potential read of the slot being a town 1SBP was if MathDino was baiting a shot to waste a scum NK, but none of the "Math got shot at N1" perspective seemed to have leaked into BV's posts if you reread his catch up. No sign of that perspective until 2821. This should have been a pervasive piece of information through which to view the game,

and conflicted with the hard town read of Gustavo

.

This is an actual good point because I was considering crumbing something like "I think I was the Night one kill" when TheWorst and Bernie made those posts. But I actually didn't think my pred was likely to have been NK'd at all but I was basing that off play and not his softs where he said he wanted to lie low. Ultimately I decided that I didn't want to give scum any additional hints about my role because I suspected that they may have a limited shot strongman kill that'll help them get rid of BP and protected players. It seemed from TheWorst's and Bernie's claims that there could be more protective roles so I also assumed scum would have a counter. I really didn't want to get NK'd this game because I figured the longer me and skitter were both alive to gamesolve, the sooner the game would be in the bag. I didn't expect the massive amounts of wild paranoia on me.

[*]After all that talk about being so careful about laying down his vote, he "accidentally" hammers TW 7 minutes after Keyser laid down his vote.

I missed Gustavo's vote. Before Keyser posted, I went back and counted the votes backwards until the point where I left for work. It was errant, Bernie, Nauci. That was much less than the six votes needed. So, I put down a vote, saw Keyser's vote in a preview but didn't think it was a hammer anyways. Then recounted and realized it would be L-1. I totally forgot Gustavo had his "claim and I'll unvote" vote on TheWorst before. I'm not going to be "careful" about voting the guy who fake-claimed a guilty on me. I'm also not sure what your point is here and whether you're claiming I hammered my partner because? If I wanted to ensure he'd be the one lynched, it's fairly easy to get him to make weaker arguments. Sidenote: The fact that he kept fighting to the end and encouraging Rask to vote me shows he really wanted to lynch me. If I were his partner, he would not. Because Rask still had the track on him and I were lynched, he'd get lynched next and it would have been game over. He wanted to get his mislynch in before he went down.

[*]TW and BV both delay for a long time before addressing the claims/pressure. TW was very clearly doing it to fish for reactions to "investigative role" and result on BV (or weird interaction with EP) to figure out the available claimspace. BV gave him way more potential credibility than made sense for his read of the worst/the game state/the English language.

Yeah, TW delayed his claim. I'm not sure what delay you are talking about regarding me. He fake-claimed a guilty when I just said I was leaving for work. I think he was hoping to lynch me before I came back and refuted all his arguments. Given how paranoid people were (Rask voted me over the person he had a result on), I don't think that was an unreasonable expectation. If Rask didn't have the result, he probably may not have even waited for me to come back. Another sidenote: if I were scum with TheWorst, he'd want to theater it up, not claim when I'm not even there.

TheWorst was crumbing investigating me right from the point I replaced in. Not only that, he basically was encouraging investigatives to be on me. Doing that to a buddy is pretty risky because he'll have to bus or clear me. Clearing a townie is a lot less risky because their flip won't incriminate you.

[*]If he's scum, then this was scum theater to tell TW that he thinks there's a Neapolitan in the game. I suspected him for very little explained reason but didn't dunk him, so it shouldn't have been hard to figure out (I am terrible at playing TPR).

This is actually a really good point but your conclusion is wrong. The hilarious thing was that I thought that if TheWorst was town, he was a Neapolitan. So I told him there was literally one role that could get a soft guilty on me. I hadn't crumbed at all so I figured if he was town, this was a good way for us both to read each other. I claim first, then TheWorst confirms that he is Neapolitan and then points to where he specifically crumbed Neapolitan to corroborate that claim. I didn't expect somebody else to be an actual Neapolitan.

You suspecting me for very little reason and not explaining it made me think you were scum. This feels like an unsubtle argument but my reactions in hindsight were towny because I wasn't looking for TPRs, I was looking for scum. I guess this is a more useful argument to make in postgame so whatever.

[*]Oh and I guess this is where he described basically exactly what he did to TW, without scum day chat.

Lol no, that was me defending Not_Mafia. But man, the paranoia here is tangible.

[*]Okay, this post and maybe even this one looks even more strange post TW/Mom flips (now that scum don't have daychat while trying to coordinate a fake claim). And of course, TW would have told his partner about the neighborhood w/ EP on N2...

The first post was made when Momrangal was still alive so obvious there was daychat. Also, are you saying that I demanded claims from BOTH my partners for no reason at all? I explained why I wanted them both to claim. I wanted us to use the time without rushing to a last-minute lynch. As for the second one, there's no deeper meaning there. I just wanted him to claim and out his results.

[*]He pushes me as a scum read when he thinks TW is scum. This is suuuuuuch a reach. Not only have I pushed/pressured TW since the beginning of d2 and skimmed like 70% of TW's games to case the hell out of him him and pinned his scum play down since like post 666.

Clearly not as much a reach as you still suspecting me when I had 2/3 of the scumteam in my scumpile upon replacing in. Your "case" was weird to me. You weren't posting findings from your own meta research. You were quoting secondhand what somebody else said about his play. I don't play that way and I wasn't really sure what to make of it.

[*]He scum reads me for not explaining my town reads on Irrelephant/Skitter when he has basically done the same level of explanation for the same town reads, after town reading me for most of the day, with an aggressiveness that felt like panic about having their gambit ruined. Some of it was predicated on me-irrelephant being scum together, but doubled down on scum reading me despite thinking TW was definitely scum.

I did not townread Irrelephant for most of the game. My townread on skitter was based on three past games. I also didn't think your skitter townread was unreasonable. If anything, I thought it was unreasonable that Irrelephant and others

weren't

townreading her hard enough. What I found scummy is you saying that were mindmelding, repeating it a lot, but never really discussing reads or attempting to figure out your disagreements. You were scumreading me even though she was townreading me and you didn't really ask the person who you had this amazing mindmeld with if she had any good reasons for her read. Similar on the Irrelephant read: she suspected him both but you didn't. Now it makes so much sense. It didn't matter if Skitter suspected Irrelephant when you knew he was a VT. But working with the information I had at the time, it appeared scummy to me that you didn't inquire about skitter's Irrelephant suspicion. As for Keyser, you only investigated him tonight so honestly I don't know why you had such a confident townread before

[*]As mentioned in my case, TW hard bussed a teammate one of his games (and won for it, IIRC). Especially if they thought they'd get the last TPR for this gambit.

Oh great. More reason to be paranoid of me I guess. But I'd point out that guiltying a stronger teammate with a possibly stronger role (I'm assuming the last scum is something other than goon) doesn't feel like a good move for scum. Guiltying a townie before he goes down does. He also gets rid of someone who can solve the game when alive lategame.

[*]His strongest scum reads for most of the previous days were basically the consensus ones (momrangal and tw, who already bussed each other). His strongest town reads (skitter, shoshin, bernie, gus) were consensus ones too. Starts off content posting[ Day 3 by throwing shade onto the rest. At some point he hard swings into only wanting me/irrelephant dead D3, but swings back onto TW without addressing this conflict.

My strongest scumreads were flipped scum. I as a townie replacing in am not going to care about "consensus" when developing reads. I'm going to suspect who I suspect and I was right. I also don't think skitter or Bernie was particularly townread at that point. Irrelephant was much more townread. I was surprised why skitter was ending up lower in a lot of people's lists. Me being good at the game doesn't mean I have an informed perspective and it's honestly a little annoying when people jump to that conclusion.

[*]I found it funny he said I'm capable of my full town range as scum (which I haven't managed to accomplish yet). BV is very capable of that feat.

I don't know where all this fear of my scumgame is coming from because I'm really not. I played well outside what I'm capable of as scum.

[*]You know full well that not using your vote as a scumhunting tool is anti-town. There's no town reason to not put it on TW if you're torn between the two when he wasn't close to risk of lolhammer.

I don't "use my vote as a scumhunting tool" very much at all. I take my time deciding who I want to lynch and vote that player. It's a tool to lynch people. What scum reason is there to not put my vote on TheWorst? I drifted off to sleep while still thinking about the game. Why would I put it on TheWorst if I was torn between the two. I'd decide which I prefer and put my vote there.

[*]Defending N_M despite his low activity is actively better for scum.

You are just throwing around "defending NM" like it's an "informed perspective" thing. As town, you have to defend your townreads. Especially if they are lynchbait. The less mislynches you allow scum, the better it is and oftentimes town win because mislynches have been taken off the table. I think I was wrong now but I believed was the most pro-town thing with the info I had at the time.

[*]I would have expected Town!Math to normally interact with Anything!The Worst quite a bit, even if it's banter.

I'll be sure to write it up in my list of complaints to him over how he played this role.

[BlackVoid]

With regard to the "one of TheWorst or Momrangal are scum" thing, I actually thought there were reasons they could be scum together which I posted in my catchup. It just didn't feel like both of the people being pressured on D2 were scum. I really wanted to put myself into a mindset where I assume only one of them was scum and then try to pick right. If both are scum, then I'll have picked right anyways so it wasn't going to be a problem.

[BlackVoid]

blackvoid are you willing to eat a lynch to help us sort gustavo/errant?

I wouldn't consider "eating a lynch" to be good townplay even in a regular game where I don't feel entitled to be clear because scum fake-claimed a guilty on me.

If errant/gustavo are scum, the only way town will win is if I can hold down my slot and prevent it from getting lynched. I won at least two towngames because I tried so, so hard to not get lynched and in of those game, ultimately the person deciding the game felt if I were scum putting in that much effort, I honestly deserved an award and voted the actual scum. That was in 3-way lylo.

Regardless, I'm not sure why my flip will help you "sort" Gustavo or Errant. Me flipping town is not going to confirm that I was the N1 nightkill. It could still have been Gustavo. You just have to read and figure him out.

[BlackVoid]

It could still have been Gustavo. You just have to read and figure him out.

What do you think?

I'm actually reading his pred in ISO right now to double check that I'm not going wrong. I think the way he and Gemini were trying to work with each other and gamesolve points away from them being partners. I'll check Gustavo as well to be sure.

[BlackVoid]

I really can't see either errant or gustavo being scum. Gustavo's whole "I'm voting Shoshin and my mind isn't being changed or it'll get toxic" attitude is a bit too far to go as scum. He does switch to Gamma but he backs it up with the accusation that Gamma wasn't voting. Since he used the same argument against me, I believe that he truly believes it.

[BlackVoid]

You are in the middle of an absurd tunnel. What's more likely? TheWorst getting a townie mislynched before he went down or him guiltying a partner knowing he had to survive several more days and claim results every day?

[BlackVoid]

And there's the fact that town would have actual PRs that'll eventually get him through POE. Or it may just look weird that he has a PR when town already has so many and setup spec dooms him.

[BlackVoid]

There's literally no chance of town losing as long as I don't get lynched. I know theoretically skitter isn't clear but I've played enough with her to know that her flipping scum is not a possibility.

It seems you are pissed and you're omgus'ing because I pushed you this game. Maybe don't be intentionally scummy next time you draw a PR if that annoys you so much. I've been fairly dead on this game outside of Irrelephant and I was even backing off of Irrelephant before your results.

[BlackVoid]

You literally argued that I was a better lynch than TheWorst despite Rask having results on TheWorst showing that he did not visit me. You want me to be scum so bad but I'm not. You're going to have to snap out of your tunnel and actually realize it makes no sense for me to be scum with TheWorst.

[BlackVoid]

Bv the 1sbp perspective would have involved a "why would scum shoot at Gustavo OR me" data point, which *has not at all happened* and I reread your catch ups.

It's a far bigger issue than not crumbing it.

Also as 1sbp you extremely want to be NKed and there's no way you don't know that

I told you. I already decided I wasn't going to hint at being 1-shot BP in the thread. I didn't really care which of us were shot as it doesn't really help me develop my reads very much at that point.

The common logic of 1-shot BPs wanting to be nk'd is overrated. There's some benefit to a scum no kill but it's only really useful if there are TWO no kills. Otherwise, it just puts the game at evens.

[BlackVoid]

@Nauci, if you believe so strongly that TheWorst would have wanted to shoot my pred, I don't know why you are so hung up on me. Do you believe Gustavo would have been shot?

[BlackVoid]

Idk, I played with him once and followed some of his games and I thought he was pretty average. But if TW really thought he was amazing, he might have just wanted to shoot him. *shrug*

I suppose it also makes sense that your TW case was basically you quoting Mathdino. I never felt like sheeping someone else is a good way to play the game but you do you I guess.

Hopefully the game is over but if it is somehow not, don't quicklynch me tomorrow or anything silly like that. I'll need to use the time to figure out Errant and Gustavo in-depth and bounce ideas back and forth with skitter. I'll probably be at work 48 hours from now.

[BlackVoid]

Really, what's up with this game and everyone being nuts about suspecting me. He's hammered and I really hope that ends the game. I'm getting tired of dealing with the paranoia.

Mod saying he's not going to be back for several hours. I PM'd him when the hammer happened.

[BlackVoid]

Okay, glad Nauci is dead. I'm in the process of writing up a very detailed analysis of the game. I went in with the assumption that Gustavo was the final scum but I saw quite a bit from his predecessor that was towny that makes me think something is very wrong and felt I had to re-evaluate Nauci.

So, we're at six alive, two confirmed, four not confirmed. It's not skitter so it has to be pretty much between Gustavo and Errant.

I also want to point out that there are some anti-associations between my predecessor and Gemini/TheWorst which make it less likely that I'm scum. 340 is rather early for bussing and scum don't typically make vague inferences to conversations they've had if they want to bus. 389 is also a "kill me or you'll regret it" crumb which I think is baiting a nightkill.

That's in addition to the fact that TheWorst really wanted me dead on D3. AND the fact that faking a guilty on a stronger player makes no sense. AND the fact that I had to come in double-bussing both my partners if I'm scum here.

[BlackVoid]

I still think it was rather early for bussing and why would he bring up suspicion of his buddy when there was no real need to? I don't know if I'm making a conf-biased argument here knowing that he was town. But there's still the fact that some of his posts are crumbing bulletproof.

[BlackVoid]

the way ep handled tw's claim felt really town to me

and stungun was super town; and gustavo's aggression/complete non-understanding of the gamestate are kinda town too (although wrong)

These are both true which is why I'm kinda worried about this game. One of them played a really good scumgame.

I probably need to clarify - I never said or implied that Gustavo was town because he was the N1 nightkill. I was reading him purely based off of his and his predecessor's play, mostly the latter. Other people have been using the nightkill as a further amplification for their reasoning but not me.

I guess the one mistake I made this game strategically is to not crumb my role. While reading Bernie and TheWorst claim that they were the N1 nightkill, I was tempted to crumb. Ultimately I decided against it because I didn't want to give scum any hint of my role for fear they might have a strongman or some sort of piercing kill. The fact that two other people claimed it made me think that there were multiple town protectives of some sort and that this was part of the setup design. That also made me hesitate on TheWorst a bit.

I was mostly trying to avoid a nightkill because I figured the longer we were both alive to gamesolve, the more certain a town win would be. I didn't really consider the possibility of needing a crumb to avoid a mislynch. I've only been mislynched once (the game that we played together). In general, I'm very good at not getting lynched as town - I thought even more so in this game because you were here and even if somehow I got suspected, you'd talk everyone down because you know my play. On hindsight, I probably should have crumbed as a contigency plan in case the pressure turned on me.

I obviously didn't/don't think Irrelephant/Nauci/Rask were scum trying to mislynch me. The fact that Rask voted me despite having a guilty on TheWorst does come across as baseless paranoia. He went so far as to think there were some sort of redirectors in the game: anything to see me as scum. Nauci made some good points which I acknowledged but also a lot of silly conf-biased ones.

I wasn't trying to make you paranoid of Nauci. I actually really nailed behaviors of Nauci's that came from an informed perspective. Her suspicion of me. Her read on Irrelephant. Her claiming that you were mindmelding with her while never trying to see eye to eye on those reads. I was wrong about why she was informed. But I really don't think I'd be capable of looking at the game so deeply that I'd spot legitimate informed-tells from townies as scum.

Regarding rushing the end of the day: I thought Not_Mafia was scum and wanted him dead before everyone somehow convinces themselves out of it. Given the state of the town at that point, I didn't feel like any other lynch was viable anyways and I couldn't even really consider any of Gustavo/Errant being scum while Not_Mafia was still alive. I wanted him flipped. If he flipped town, and then Nauci flipped town like I hoped, then I'd at least know for sure that one of Gustavo/Errant are scum and look to see where I could have gone wrong. It didn't really feel like everyone was logically considering all alternatives. More like looking for an excuse to call me scum, so yeah I wanted to get that N_M lynch over with. If that ends the game (I'd have given it like 70% odds), great. If not, I know for sure one of my townreads was wrong.

I just don't see you playing this way as scum. I doubt you'd disagree that your play here is very, very well outside your scumrange.

[BlackVoid]

I don't know much about depression but I wish you the best in getting well.

[BlackVoid]

I'm working mornings now so I'll have the evenings free to post. @Skitter, my flavor is Gerald Ford. He survived assassination attempts so I'll survive a nightkill. (Heavily paraphrased)

[BlackVoid]

So I personally think it should be me or bv today. Obviously I’d prefer bv over me but I’ll go if it makes it easier.

Those posts by skitter makes me feel like it’s not him

Bv didn’t vote mom and only voted the worst due to the whole fake claim thing. I wouldn’t put it past the worst to fake a guilty on his partner.

I voted both mom and the worst. I also think while some people may hate my play, it literally makes no sense for me to play like this as scum.

VOTE: bv

I don’t really think I need to put effort into today since it’s not mylo/lylo.

I feel like the not-voting thing has been addressed many times already. "Not voting Momrangal" is a pretty bad reason when considering the context which has also been explained multiple times.

Why wouldn't you need to put effort in today? If we're both lynched in some order today and tomorrow, that would pretty much hand Errant the win if he's scum.

Each of us should be assuming a worst-case scenario: that one of the lynches will be us. There is one other lynch. So, we should be attempting to nail scum with that lynch. That means you should actually be putting maximum effort to figure out which of me or Errant it is.

[BlackVoid]

* To clarify, I mean each of me, Gustavo, and Errant.

[BlackVoid]

Isn’t he Lynched?

Anyways I just read some ISO’s. I feel good with nm being the last scum.

Whose ISOs did you read? I'm assuming this means you found other people town so who and why?

[BlackVoid]

I didn’t think I was the NK target. I thought shos was stupid to save me. I honestly felt I’m being saved for lylo. My gut says one of the claims is fake. I’ve searched the archived games and when scum has an encryptor, scum never have a neighborizer. I found one game where scum had a BP RBer and an encryptor and town had a neighborizer but I actually can see errant being scum here. He had a vote on tw and he was late and no reason. He had a vote on mom that’s again was late and no reason.

I don’t really have a read on skitter yet but nobody else seems to think he’s scum so it’s not worth looking there I guess. I will before the day ends.

So if we can eliminate skitter, We need to either lynch one of those bv/ errant today or lynch me and y’all deal with which one of the remaining tomorrow.

Logic says bv today. My heart/gut says it’s errant.

We obviously have time so when I have more of it I’ll do some more reading.

1. What does the bolded even mean?

2. You eliminate skitter because nobody else thinks she's scum?

3. If you don't think you were the NK target, then my slot has to be which basically confirms me so that sounds very illogical.

[BlackVoid]

For anyone suspecting me: you have to believe that Gustavo was the kill target N1. Except what motivation does scum have to kill someone who spent most of their time tunneling Shoshin and being a distraction?

My predecessor hinted at having a PR multiple times. There were scum like TheWorst who have experience with him and may have picked up on his PR tendencies. As far as I can see, there's nothing in Gustavo's posts that hint at having a PR.

On balance, I really don't understand why anyone thinks Gustavo is the more likely shot here.

[BlackVoid]

Early interactions. I'l continue this over the next couple of days.

Stungun/Gustavo

12 - This is an interesting entrance. My first instinct is to dismiss it as partner interaction. I'm not sure how much weight I should put into this at this point. I've seen once before scum having early interactions with each other that didn't look like partners at first glance.
80 - I don't really think I understand his rationale behind the Keyser read. There's some vague "train of thought" argument but not very well-articulated.
109 - I didn't think the Shoshin response was very good. "It looks like you are trying to take advantage of a wagon forming on me is a pretty weak response. I think this was touched on before but Shoshin did start the wagon. The second paragraph is towny because he's bringing attention to a player who hasn't gotten attention before. Also, he's working with Gemini, discussing reads back and forth which if he's scum is definitely something they had to have planned.
114 - The flaw in Stungun's logic here is that just because Shoshin made an early push on MathDino doesn't mean she can't question Nauci's push on MathDino. I don't think Shoshin would have been so sure MathDino is scum that early in the game that anyone who also suspected him would be above questioning. It's somewhat unreasonable to expect her to behave that way but that's what Stungun is implying Shoshin should do.
124 - Interesting assertion. I'm not sure how much it can be backed up by looking through Stungun's games though.
177 - He scumreads Gemini as the person he next wants to vote for over NSG.
183 - Somewhat conflicted here. It looked town at first glance but I can't shake the feeling that he just wanted to look good upon a Gemini scumflip by claiming that they are opposing alignments. It feels like a bit of a stretch for town to make to say that Gemini's replace out was alignment indicative. He does acknowledge that it could just be Gemini being busy. But then why call it a scum-indicative replace out at all?
279 - Somewhat odd to be calling out Shoshin on her Momrangal townread while also hard-townreading her. The tone is dissonant almost as if he's setting up for a later attack on Shoshin if Momrangal flips.
280 - Initially felt like looking up games is towny but that was a rather conclusive statement. It's not really easy to tell differences apart.
281 - I pretty much agree that Momrangal shouldn't have been townread. I don't know if scum would make these posts. On balance, I think it's more likely town just because it was reasonable and made sense to me.
384 - I have a hard time deciding what to make of this because on the one hand, I like that he's trying to townread Bernie and asking for links to previous games. The attempt to develop a read seems genuine and also matches with his belief that his townreads are more accurate so are more important to develop. The problem I have is that I don't agree with anything he said about Bernie's content. Bernie was emanating townvibes from his posts before this.
399 - I like that he called out TheWorst's townread of him and his paranoia of NSG based on previous game.

Northsidegal/ErrantParabola

97 - This is actually a good vote from Northsidegal. I wish she explained it. But Momrangal's first posts were pretty bad and scummy so I think it's more likely townie intuition than early scum distancing.

Gemini/TheWorst

83 - I think this is another anti-tell with regard to Gustavo/Stungun. Unless scum pre-decided that they were going to look like they were working together which I guess isn't completely unreasonable.
116 - So Gemini is definitely not joining the Stungun wagon. I could see it meaning either alignment for Stungun though. If he's town, she knows him and would not want to wagon him.
296 - TheWorst claims he's not really seeing the townread on Stungun. Slight anti-association but I could see him asking why a buddy is being townread too.
305 - I think there's scum motivation here for TheWorst to follow skitter on the Stungun townread if he can use it as an opportunity to dismiss his buddy as town.

[BlackVoid]

@skitter, you could also read Stungun's offsite scumgames to get a better sense of his play. I had tracked down one of his scum PTs: https://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/GFAfbpTTAqAT (he's Liucci there) just to see what his range and internal scum thought process is like. The thing is if he's scum, he's rather good. I wouldn't say top level because most of the anti-associations are basically pushes on Momrangal and TheWorst and anyone can distance/bus. But definitely much better than a newbie. Specifically, his reaction to Gemini is nuanced in that he hopes that both of them are town and wants to work with her. If it wasn't for that, I think I'd be probably leaning Gustavo. I'm going to comment on Errant's posts when I get to it. Reading chronologically, Errant's slot doesn't have many early game interactions.

[BlackVoid]

The thing that makes me paranoid about the gamestate is that the people I find scummy (like Errant, TW) are okay with a Momrangal wagon and Irrelephant is okay with both. Gamestate-wise, Momra/TW are the two wagons likely to go through so

I'm no longer considering them to be partners

. One could be scum but not both. I really want to re-evaluate the people outside my strongest townpile but who are not actively in my scumpile which is Nauci/Keyser/Not_Mafia.

Would wagonomics really dispel all of BV’s scum reads/theories/understanding of TW-Mom associations???
Think BV turned too easily away from TW-Mom here. They were both scummy slots.. why can’t they both be scum in isolation?

(I believe this point may have already been highlighted...)

Two points. First off, you are conflating me having accurate reads with me knowing TheMom/Worst are scum. As a townie entering the game, if people are townreading your strong scumreads, it's something you want to know about. You should be looking at the actual REASONS why I suspected Momrangal/TheWorst instead of trying to draw inferences from the fact that I suspected them and then judging whether they are reasons a townie would genuinely suspect them for.

Secondly, I backed off from TheMom/Worst team because it seemed like the choice between the lynches was the two of them. I found it unlikely that they were both scum. Suspecting me because of it is suspecting me for a very reasonable observation. It's very rare for both scum to be pressured and be pretty much the only lynch choices. They could be scum in isolation, it just felt complacent to assume that at that point. Honestly, if I were scum that really committed to bussing, I'd never make that statement. I'd just want to cash in the towncred.

[BlackVoid]

Heading off to work. More detailed posting in the evening.

[BlackVoid]

I'm back. @Irrelephant, I was also following the game that you linked and I'm going to look over it again to see what Stungun is like with his partners.

@Gustavo, you're just rehashing talking points at this point. Both have been discussed extensively and you still going "suspected Momrangal but didn't vote her" and "didn't react to Shoshin claiming I was protected" isn't really inspiring me with a lot of confidence. If you are town here, I'd suggest looking deeper and re-reading relevant parts of the game.

[BlackVoid]

So, from that game, Stungun starts off by scumreading their buddy platfleece when there was pressure on them but then votes a different townie because he wanted to see more from him. Then continues making an early push on him saying that a question of theirs pinged him. Afterward, they hard-bus him while a wagon develops.

My overall impression from reading the game is that Stungun is likely a player that favors bussing. Something notable here is that he never considers the possibility of his partner being town except for a minor point where he says he likes a response that his partner had given. I think he's the type who would be hesitant to defend or townread their partners for fear of looking wrong/scummy when they flip. Obviously this is a single game so I'm hesitant to draw a more definite conclusion.

Based on that, I'm thinking it's most likely Gustavo here. I also remembered something that was worrying me but I keep forgetting to bring up: I really didn't like Gustavo's hop onto the Gamma wagon. He tunnels Shoshin, votes Gamma, then unvotes simply because Shoshin was voting Gamma. But votes Gamma back despite Shoshin still voting Gamma. There's no logical explanation as to what caused this change of mind. I see scum motivation in pushing there because there was heavy suspicion on Momrangal D1 and skitter was trying pretty hard to launch a wagon there and not succeeding. Analyzing it now, it feels like Gustavo backed off of his Shoshin tunnel because if he kept tunneling and didn't help Gamma get lynched, the pressure may have turned to Momrangal.

[BlackVoid]

VOTE: gamma

The fact he’s not voted all game and his first vote is on me and

his reason basically implies he knows I’m town is a red flag for me

I can’t be scum who doesn’t give a shit if I’m wrong.

I’m fairly obviously town. He’s not scum hunting imo.

Your reasoning is here. Not voting all game is not a scumtell. The bolded is kinda silly. Town doesn't know who scum is so will always be considering multiple possibilities.

Now that he flipped town, I'm curious what you think happened there. You seemed to very definitive views about certain things being scumtells. So, you pushed Gamma for not voting, he flipped town. Then you push me for not voting. Why isn't there any sort of re-evaluation on whether the things you are calling scumtells actually are or not?

[BlackVoid]

VOTE: Gamma

UNVOTE:

VOTE: gamma

The fact he’s not voted all game and his first vote is on me and his reason basically implies he knows I’m town is a red flag for me

I can’t be scum who doesn’t give a shit if I’m wrong. I’m fairly obviously town. He’s not scum hunting imo.

Your answer still doesn't explain to me why you unvoted and put your vote back on. You unvoted purely because Shoshin was voting Gamma. You seemed very, very confident that Shoshin is scum to the point where her being on a wagon is enough reason to leave it. But when you saw the VC in 1198 with Shoshin still on the Gamma wagon, you put your vote back on. Nothing really changed in the interim.

[BlackVoid]

And I did have a logical reason as to why I moved on from shos.

You moved on from Shoshin to someone Shoshin was voting. But previously, Shoshin voting someone was a reason for you to not vote them. You didn't have to vote Gamma there. You could have voted Momrangal.

[BlackVoid]

I voted both mom and the worst. I also think while some people may hate my play, it literally makes no sense for me to play like this as scum.

You voted Momrangal at a point where it was almost assured that she was the lynch of the day with a small chance that it could be TheWorst. Prior to that, you mostly defended her and tunneled Shoshin. Why would it make no sense for you to play like this as scum? What could you possibly have done at that point to save them?

You also briefly voted me for suggesting that both Momrangal and TheWorst claim. On hindsight, if people listened to me, that would have actually been very anti-scum since we'd be forcing two scum into locking their claims.

The day Momrangal was lynched, you tunneled Shoshin. After the wagon grew to L-2 with the counterwagon also being scum, you put the wagon to L-1 with no reason (I assume your reason is something like nobody is listening to your Shoshin read so you're going with the crowd, correct me if I'm wrong.)

As for your vote on TheWorst:

VOTE: the worst

Claim results and I’ll unvote.

This is what you said. Prior to that, you were pushing me. You clearly had intent to unvote TheWorst when he claims. He claimed and you didn't post that night until he got lynched. So, we don't actually have any information on how you would have reacted to me vs TheWorst.

It's not just that behavior but why you think it makes literally no sense for you to play like that as scum is what I'm having trouble following.

1. You never pushed Momrangal and voted when there was no chance of a town lynch that day or much of a chance of anyone other than Momrangal being lynched.
2. You voted TheWorst for a claim, clearly stated that you would unvote after a claim and your vote winded up being on the VC simply because you weren't there to react to his claim and he got hammered before that.

Neither of these behaviors exclude you from being scum. It doesn't make sense for you to bring these up as points in your favor.

[BlackVoid]

My pred suspected two people (Gamma and TheWorst). He clearly seemed to have suspected Gamma more so he voted him. It's not unusual for townie to have their primary suspect flip town and their second suspect be scum. I can't talk about what reasons he may have had because he wasn't really posting any of those reasons. He also didn't join the Gamma wagon. He was the first vote there.

[BlackVoid]

You voted Momrangal at a point where it was almost assured that she was the lynch of the day with a small chance that it could be TheWorst.

And mom was your top scumnread and you didn’t vote her at all. You instead say you are thinking of voting the worst instead.

Didn’t want to bus the encryptor?

They were both fluctuating in scumminess. I explained what made me go for TheWorst in the end.

[BlackVoid]

You also briefly voted me for suggesting that both Momrangal and TheWorst claim

Because it’s anti-town to ask 2 people to claim when neither are at l-1

No, it's not. That's an overrated context-free accusation that people throw around. If we know we're lynching between two people and time is running out, having both claims on the table and people evaluating them both and deciding a lynch is a better outcome than someone claiming PR 24 hours to deadline and having everyone scramble to find an alternative lynch where many people may not even be online and our options would be pretty limited.

[BlackVoid]

Neither of these behaviors exclude you from being scum.

Then vote me. I’m not scum and I’ve already said today should be you or me.

I’m not afraid to die. You clearly are

If you're town, what benefit do you get from me voting you? I'll vote when I've finished re-reading the game and feel more confident that I've evaluated both options.

No one is "afraid" of dying. It should be clear from all three of our perspectives (me, you, Errant) that as long as we don't get lynched, we will win the game for town. This is also true for the one that's scum. The only real difference is that town are motivated to make the right choice and end the game today to not bring it into LYLO.

So, I'm puzzled why you are both okay with your lynch and also not trying to solve the game. (You don't even think skitter should be off the table so that's even more game that you need to solve)

[BlackVoid]

@Gustavo, I really want an answer to the substance of my 3452. You replied to it twice once attacking a tangential point, the second challenging me to vote you. But do you really believe that your behavior excludes you from being scum? You bring them as points in your favor "

I voted both mom and the worst. I also think while some people may hate my play, it literally makes no sense for me to play like this as scum.

" That's very much lacking context. In context, neither of your votes are impactful. Your Momrangal vote came when the lynch was pretty much assured. You made no push on her prior and actually defended her. Your TheWorst vote was for a claim and you stated you'd unvote when he claims. He got hammered before you came back to the thread. So that statement is a pretty big misrepresentation of your play.

[BlackVoid]

I’ve responded to that post already

You responded. You didn't respond to my biggest issue with your votes.

[BlackVoid]

So that statement is a pretty big misrepresentation of your play.

How?

Because you are ignoring the context of your votes which I just went into.

[BlackVoid]

You brought it up as a point in your favor. Based on context, it's not. So, it's misleading.

[BlackVoid]

This is kinda getting nowhere. I'm going to let others weigh in while I continue my re-read.

[BlackVoid]

I addressed it already. Read my ISO. I'll quote it if anybody other than you legitimately wants to know.

[BlackVoid]

You brought it up as a point in your favor. Based on context, it's not. So, it's misleading.

I was the only one on both.

Regardless why I was on there I was there.

So am I town who got lucky or scum who double bussed when I didn’t have to?

You weren’t on mom and almost wasn’t on tw, despite him claiming a guilty on you.

Regardless of context I look better than you imo

This is why I said TODAY should be between me and you.

No, context is the most important thing. You voted Momrangal when there was no other option. You voted TheWorst and only didn't unvote because he got hammered before you came back. You were never here for the claim and the 1v1. That definitely does not look good. You claiming that it's towny and using terms like "double-bussing" is what I actually find scummy here.

You didn't get lucky as town. You were townreading Momrangal. You weren't voting TheWorst to lynch him.

[BlackVoid]

The flaw in your logic is the assumption that whichever of us weren't shot N1 is the scum. That's not the case. We could both be town but only one of us could have been shot N1. I think my slot probably was and I think it's unlikely that you were. That unlikeliness is a good reason why I'm town. But that doesn't anything about your alignment.

My townread on you had nothing to do with Shoshin's claim of protecting you. I was townreading you based off of your pred's play and to some extent, yours.

You are not possible scum because people suspect me. I don't think I ever said anything of that sort. You're possible scum because I'm confident it's not skitter and two others are cleared. And I'm trying to figure out whether you or Errant make more sense here.

[BlackVoid]

You voted Momrangal when there was no other option.

I could have pretended to be busy and stayed off the wagon. Or pretended I needed more time to read.

There is always an option. Bussing is stupid

Then Momrangal would just have been lynched without you on the wagon. Your vote made no difference other than for you to argue that you voting her makes you town.

I

[BlackVoid]

This only feels like wasted time because you keep talking past me and not addressing the actual substance of my points. Or maybe you think you are, I don't know. Then going back and arguing "suspected Momrangal but didn't vote her" with zero context.

Claiming town has to "resolve" two people is nonsensical. You evaluate all the possibilities and lynch the likeliest scum.

Pedit: I ruled out skitter but I haven't ruled out Errant. To consider him being scum, I have to believe that he either neighborized his partner (I've seen this before in a game I modded), or they just faked having a PT. Then I have to believe that he outed the info they shared in there and bussed TheWorst. That feels much less likely than you being scum but I have check the timeline again.

[BlackVoid]

Spoiler: Stungun's scum PT posts

I am a mafia rolecop! glad to have powers to use. it was smart of you to lay a vote on me and scumread me for distancing purposes, so props!

distancing is one of the most important things you must perform when you have scum partners

, so you are doing well in that regard! you don’t want to be lynched, and then your partner be immediately lynched after you, if you get my drift!

I would say you are doing OK, but definitely take a backseat in terms of aggressive questioning! that is, because your question to invisibility early on would hit my scum radar if I was town.

i think you should keep scumreading me, because it looks good for distancing purposes. however, just don’t go too far with it, as you still want to look pro-town

I think you should find a serious reason to townread espeonage, because then others would be reluctant to think you are scum when you are townreading a counterwagon AND also bringing in a perspective no one else has yet. and commit hard to it, that would look very good.

voting xander would be fine for your purposes; BUT do bring in a solid reason no one has stated yet.

I’ll see if I can help you out here, gimme a sec.

Absolutely don’t quote directly from this pt into the thread though, because that will out us both.

These posts actually resemble his gameplay here. He has a lot of focus on "distancing" and is extremely conscious about it. In this game, he's consistently had negative things to say about both scum. I thought it was rather unusual that he started suspecting Gemini so early on. If they liked playing with each other, I think Stungun as a townie would have a more positive disposition to her and be more willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. But this obsessive focus on distancing fits in with how he played this game.

[BlackVoid]

I also couldn't follow his Keyser townread. He had an unusually hard townread there for murky reasoning. That also fits with his scum thinking where he thinks it's important to townread townies.

[BlackVoid]

Heading off to bed. I'll ISO Errant in-depth tomorrow before I put down a vote but I'm pretty sure it's Gustavo at this point.

[BlackVoid]

Quick post before leaving for work.

@Keyser, some of the things you townread Gustavo for are things he can do as scum. Specifically, he's the kind of scum player that plays by deluding themselves into thinking that they are town so can have genuine-sounding, stubborn reactions. Here's an ISO of a recent scumgame.

[BlackVoid]

I did and that's somewhat true. You were less active there than here. You were still the third highest poster in that game so I wouldn't say you lurked. Regardless, it's given me some pause and I'm thinking it over.

[BlackVoid]

But town was not destroying itself here though. Momrangal and TheWorst were under heavy suspicion so you never really had that option.

[BlackVoid]

And I have looked over your posts. I’ve already said that. So you implying I haven’t isn’t accurate. Out of the 4 of us I know 1 is town. I see one who doesn’t look as bad as the other 2.

I honestly don’t think scum shot me. I honestly don’t think scum shot math either. Bv didn’t do much of value when replacing in and didn’t vote mom and only hammered the worst. That sticks out the most to me. That’s where my vote lies.

I’m voting who I think is scum. I lack the power of persuasion cause nobody ever listens to me.

given tw/mom/{one of ep/you/math}, it makes the most sense to me that tw decided to shoot math that night tbh given the possible options

So if you are town. You were combative when you didn’t need to be. You blatantly misrepped (lied) about your play last game (I proved this true), and you claimed doctor when you were under no threat of being lynched.

Yeah don’t worry if I’m wrong about you, I’ll never play with you again.

That said, I don’t think I’m wrong about you. It doesn’t matter though cause nobody is lynching you.

I will say that if you were town, there is no way scum would kill me so your story is definitely not believable.

You as town were more likely the person to be killed.

Why would scum kill me unless my reads were right. If they are right you are scum

this post is kinda interesting to me tho

your biggest scumread tells u they protected you the night before, the night there wasn't a kill. i kinda think that would prompt some sort of re-evaluation here, but you're using it as an oppurunity to double-down on the scumread, but back down because she isn't getting lynched, not really on play and def not after the claim

and your immediate reaction is that scum wouldn't have killed you so her story is fake which is just kinda ????

she can be telling the truth irregardless of targeting you irregardless of whether or not you had been targeted by scum too. like you not being the nk doesn't make *her* actions invalid. suboptimal, maybe you can argue, but i don't know why you're assuming she's lying or that her story is not believable.

@bv what do you think?

I actually read it as him saying that he wasn't a likely NK target (from Shoshin's and everyone else's POV), therefore Shoshin's claim and night action of protecting him is not believable.

But that just makes me wonder why he's so set on me. If he realizes he most likely wasn't the target anyways, that means my slot was and that should have given him pause.

[BlackVoid]

Especially as he knows now that Shoshin is town.

[BlackVoid]

what do you think of gustavo's defeatism today?

I'm not sure what to make of it. I was actually kind of worried over the last 24hrs that Errant is skating by allowing us both to argue. I really disliked that last post of his. It felt almost like he's posting because Irrelephant and others expect him to make some sort of contribution and not actually because he wanted to solve which of me and Gustavo were scum. He ends by claiming he'll sheep whichever ones the conf-town want to lynch.

I also don't townread Errant in general. A lot of his posts are unrelatable. Like his townread on Nauci for focusing on solving or something like that and having me low down in his list of reads despite agreeing with both my townreads and scumreads. I townread him for one reason only and that's that his interaction with TheWorst before that fake-guilty on me felt genuine. Even the neighborizer claim by itself is null. I've seen scum actually neighborize a partner before. (Although since it's one-shot and there's a roleblock unaccounted for, if he's scum, I'd say it's a fake-claim as opposed to him actually neighborizing a partner).

I'm going to analyze Errant in-depth after in an hour or so and talk about him. I'll have to weigh whether that interactions pre-guilty, and regarding neighborhood are a rock-solid enough reason to call him town that outweighs everything else. Gustavo is frustrating me and I'm not sure if I'm been conf-biasing.

As for the defeatism, I don't townread either player's defeatism. It's bad play from whoever is town and the scum is obviously doing it to get towncred. It's not like we'd be more likely to lynch someone if they ask to be lynched.

But yeah, if there's one thing from Errant we can hold onto and call him town for sure, that would help get over my misgivings.

[BlackVoid]

Is it just me that feels like there are a lot of moving parts in this claim? I find it a little hard to buy that worst and BV collectively decided that
1) worst has a guilty on BV
2) BV is going to fakeclaim a 1-shot BP role
3) worst isn't a cop or a tracker or anything, he's a GUNSMITH (???)

Like it just seems like a disjointed set of claims that reads more to me like "real thing that sort of clashes with fake thing" aka BV's real claim vs worst's weird fake claim rather than BV and worst going "okay! these are the things we're going to claim!"
Another point in favor of BV being town?

Is it crazy that I'm actually considering BV here >____>

I think duck scum is very likely as bussing anyways but then on off chance my track on him messed with (unfortunately not negligable with TW publicly claimed as PR) it holds

I'm having a lot of trouble seeing this tbh irregardless of my read on bv

Like I sont get why tw busses bv here and not the other way around - I dont think even with the towncred of bussing a partner that tw makes it to endgame; and hes going to be suspected for not being dead in a couple of days

Like why do they do this out of the blue? I dont know if scum banks everything on this

Also bv-personality-wise this doesn't really feel like a plan he was involved in. It isnt ... neat enough. I don't know how to explain that better

this is basically what i meant by that btw

like it has too many pieces that fit together badly and like it's just so very ... messy

and i feel like if bv had been involved in a fake-claim plan it would have been a lot more planend out, and just wouldn't have had so many dangling parts that don't make sense really

like this just isn't how i see him going about this

Also, you originally made this point a few times before. He's just repeating what you said. Your basis was that you played with me and don't think I would make this play based on playstyle/personality. errant never played with me so I don't know where he's drawing this from. I got some FishytheFish vibes there.

[BlackVoid]

Posts relating to the neighborizing/guilty outing.

2655 - I like the "maybe you'll find out" part. It seemed genuine - like something TheWorst would actually say in a neighborhood PT given his coy behavior in thread. And it's a tangential detail that I don't think Errant would make up?
2658 - Can you actually point to evidence that you're friends? You only played a couple of games together.
2742 - I think this is a townie response to Rask's accusation. I think mafia would refute it more seriously if Rask was actually on point as opposed to laughing about what an absurd theory it was.
2754 - I think this is a towntell because scum would want to be more abrasive towards their partners in a distancing effort. I think this actually fits errant's non-confrontational personality more. His response here is consistent with how he continued apologizing to me after a misunderstanding.
2926 - This is the strongest towntell that I referred to earlier. Rask gave both of them an out by asking Errant if he was claiming TheWorst's result for him. Errant immediately confirms that it's not and revotes TheWorst. The "panic" that he was referring to earlier also feels genuine. That it all happened in a minute is another reason.
2983 - This is not a huge towntell since TheWorst was doomed anyways but he didn't need to dissuade Nauci and Rask from their theories about how I'd be a better lynch than TheWorst. He could have voted TheWorst for the cred and let them lead themselves wherever they will. I had liked this post when he made it too.
3048 - I also kinda like this post. I think he'd want to score the more difficult lynch in me before I have a chance to convince everyone I'm town. NM will always be an easy lynch no matter what.

So, overall I feel pretty good. This rejuvenated my townread on errantp. I did have some misgivings about how stubborn Gustavo was being but it's a personality trait that he can replicate as scum and Stungun's associatives really, really fit with what I think he'd do as scum and his philosophy and obsession with distancing match his play here and make more sense than the worldview that he's town with the reads he had.

I'll give a quick look at Stungun's other scumgame to double check before I vote but I'm feeling much more comfortable a Gustavo lynch will end it.

[BlackVoid]

In Transformers, Stungun was mafia with Porkens, rb, and Vecna. He had rb as a townlean, Porkens as scum and even questioned townreads on Porkens. Didn't interact with Vecna other than voting him for lurking. I didn't find anything that rules him out there. The whole "finding townreads + POEing" thing that I felt was town before is also fake-able. I didn't see anything similar to his Gemini interaction but I think it's well within scumrange. As for his mafia PT posts, I feel like his philosophy of "

i think you should townread some players too, so it looks like you are actively trying to be pro-town!

" fits why he had some of those early townreads because I just can't follow why he had those townreads. The read on Keyser is one example and he townreads him for something easily fake-able. That and Gustavo pushing against a Momrangal lynch early on, and the vote on Gamma all point to him.

VOTE: Gustavo

[BlackVoid]

Thanks brassherald! You're the best!

I'm almost willing to do BV first here, just to clarify if he is indeed bulletproof who was probably shot before killing Gustavo
But like, the other way around works too I think

You keep bringing this up for some reason. There is no "clarification" that gives you. Me and Gustavo could both be town even if only one of us is shot. One of us being town tells you nothing about the other. Me flipping 1-shot BP doesn't say anything about Gustavo's alignment.

Also, I think Gustavo's "just lynch me" statements means he probably

is

the best choice to lynch for today? If his motivation is gone, he's either stuck scum or a townie who probably shouldn't come to lylo. I'd rather have ep and bv to choose from tomorrow, with skitter more able to evaluate the possibility of bv pocketing her.

That's fair. I don't think it's EP but if it somehow is, I'll know it tomorrow and I feel confident I can show skitter and whichever of you/Keyser is left why. Actual scum is

never

unlynchable. There will always be signs if you look hard enough.

These are good points from Gustavo though (like three posts up): "Tomorrow, Ask yourself why the worst didn’t want to change his investigation target. Why did it have to be BV? Also bv seemed sure he was the one investigated before the worst outed himself. Lastly how would you react when your partner was attempting a risky gambit? Would you defend him or cast shade on him?"

I don't know why he was so set on me. He probably wanted to take out someone good. TheWorst hinted he was going to investigate me so I thought if he had a soft "guilty" on me, he was either scum or neapolitan. I explained this before in my response to Nauci.

Gustavo's points are not good. They are rehashes of talking points addressed in detail with context many times. He's just repeating stuff like "suspected Momrangal but didn't vote her" and other sort of cookie-cutter scumtells hoping they'll stick while ignoring context.

[BlackVoid]

It's not skitter. Even outside of her overall gameplay, she's not going to react the way she did to me as scum. I came in hard-townreading her and never wavered. I don't think a scum-Skitter responds by being continuously paranoid of me and trying to read me. She'd just be glad I'm townreading her.

[BlackVoid]

You don’t think paranoia can be faked but you seem to think I can fake all my reactions though...

Again ignoring context. I'm not saying paranoia can't be faked in general. I'm saying based on what I know about skitter, this is not the reaction she'd have as scum.

As scum you are stubborn. You push things that you call "scumtells" with the same amount of conviction as when you are town. You can project an inner belief that townies are legitimately scummy and deserve to be lynched. You seem to be the kind of player that would legitimately hate it and be offended if you are caught for what you think are the wrong reasons. So, I don't townread your reactions. I don't necessarily scumread them either. But your predecessor's interactions with flipped scum and Errant's behavior during the guilty is what I'm basing my decision on.

[BlackVoid]

I didn't play with skitter when she was scum. I'm basing it on personality/player analysis. We played two games where we were both town and one more game as a hydra (town). I've spectating a handful of her scumgames which gave me a good understanding of scumrange.

[BlackVoid]

That's exactly what you did when you voted Gamma and Momrangal.

[BlackVoid]

Would you say you're capable of replicating what you did here as scum even if you didn't do specific things you did here in that one completed scumgame?

[BlackVoid]

That's a bad argument to begin with because you could still be town that wasn't shot. I don't know why people keep continuing to push this flawed logic. Having me in lylo is probably scum's best chance of losing the game because I'm harder to argue against than either you or Errant. You have to push back on me here because I'm pushing you and if you don't plant the seed of doubt about me, you're just going to end up lynched.

[BlackVoid]

You were suspicious of me, yeah but I'm talking about your play today. Me attacking you seems to have made you more sure about your read.

[BlackVoid]

Tbh, I still have misgivings. Gustavo, can you walk me through what you think of Errant?

[BlackVoid]

Gustavo's responses to me have actually sounded genuine. I asked because he seemed like the kind of guy who'd win scumgames and then say at endgame that he never lied about anything and that actual townies were very scummy. It's just the feeling I got from his general attitude. (Btw, you're TwoFace, right?)

I'm

still

having misgivings. I didn't want to say anything to derail the wagon because if he was scum, that would just let him off the hook. But I hated Errant's last posts. I'm going to give this another good look. Thinking more on it, I don't feel like his reactions are

that

strongly indicative of town and I could see a scenario in the scum PT going:

TW: Hey, one of us should claim neighborizer and say we neighborized the other.
Errant: That sounds fun. I'll do it and I'll say I did it because we were friends and know each other.
TW: We should also have a running log of things that we'd say in our "neighborhood."
Errant: No one will ever suspect that we're scum together. It'll be brilliant! You're the worst, seriously! (Did I say worst, I mean best)

[BlackVoid]

yeah idk if he literally asks to be hammered as scum

but the neighborhood things feels super super super town

Okay, that's fair but it's still a small sample of his overall posts. His latest posts really just squicked me out. It felt like he was trying to get us to lynch Gustavo but not actually commit to anything and save his credibility for LYLO to go up against me. There's also his unvote after Not_Mafia was hammered and claim that he doesn't N_M was going to flip scum. I felt like he kinda defaulted to thinking I was scum despite calling me town. It's just a lot easier to fake being very town at certain points but outside of that, I didn't really think his behavior was town. I still think my arguments for town-Errant are good but I just don't feel as good about the read as I should if that makes any sense.

[BlackVoid]

I didn't really mean indecision. I haven't really committed either. I meant it more in a sense that I don't feel like you are solving in a way that helps you reach a conclusion. You made this massive post where you found reasons to townread and scumread both me and Gustavo and ended by saying you'll just sheep the conf-town. It looked like the effort was geared more towards effort for the sake of it - to show everyone that you are efforting.

[BlackVoid]

hmmm town!BV actually getting cold feet
Or scum!BV saving the easier mislynch for LYLO

I'll help you, it's the former.

[BlackVoid]

Why would town-EP ask to be lynched when me and Gustavo were facing much more suspicion? He'd know that if we were both lynched, town would win and he realistically has a chance of being the last townie standing. It's just suboptimal play from town.

On the other hand, why say it as scum? I think he anticipated that people's reactions would be closer to "well, scum wouldn't ask to be lynched so EP is even more town" than to "well, let's lynch him because he asked to be lynched."

[BlackVoid]

Errant wasn't the last scum in that game. I felt like he allowed himself to be lynched to avoid giving away further info about his partner. I think the scenario is different.

[BlackVoid]

On the N_M unvote, if he's scum, I suspect that he knew N_M was already lynched and unvoted just for the cred. It's either that or he knew that N_M not being lynched then means people will look primarily at me and secondarily at Gustavo. Errant wasn't really in danger at that point.

[BlackVoid]

idk, i read it as town who didn't want to go through the effort of efforting when they thought town would prob win it even if they were mislynched

But that's not really true. If he was mislynched, town would have to decide between me and Gustavo. He suspected both of us. It was he that was not being suspected so he was actually in the best position to say "lynch through the others and we'll win."

It's semi-understandable if he was fighting for his life and said "well just lynch me so there's no question mark about my slot." I'd still consider it poor play but I can understand it as a town thought process.

[BlackVoid]

Hmm, okay. I guess that makes sense. Gustavo's responses and self-meta felt pretty genuine though. But it's also true that he was one of the few vocal opponents to scum being lynched. I'm going to see if Errant had any behaviors earlier in the game where he has anti-associations with flipped scum. (@skitter)

[BlackVoid]

i really really don't think it's ep

and this is townie af from gustavo too

idk maybe it's just bv?

Well it's not me.

[BlackVoid]

I don't know if I can convince you to re-assess Errant when I myself am so unsure and there's a fair bit of evidence against Gustavo/Stungun. I think the best option is to flip Gustavo. If we're right, awesome. If we're wrong, then I at least know for sure that Errant is scum. I can buy that you townread Errant harder than me if he's actually town. But I don't think you'll lynch a town-me over a scum-Errant. If he's scum, there's definitely going to be something I can point out that'll explain why he's scum to get you to re-evaluate. @skitter.

[BlackVoid]

Also, Gustavo could have easily self-hammered instead of asking Keyser to do it. He's self-voted twice when it wasn't a hammer which does point to it being more WIFOM than genuine.

[BlackVoid]

I just realized from reading the Neapolitan wiki page that it's power gets weaker the fewer vanilla townies there are in the game. That actually makes sense as a counterbalance to have so many non-VT roles.

1-shot neighborizer is a silly role and 1-shot BP is not all that powerful but both are unconfirmable so that acts as a balancing mechanic. I felt town would be somewhat overpowered with a tracker AND Neapolitan AND odd-night doctor. But if Gustavo is scum and Neapolitan can only confirm five townies as VT (Irrelephant, Gamma, Skitter, Keyser, N_Mafia) while four others can't be (me, Rask, Errant, Shoshin), that limits the power of a Neapolitan significantly and makes three middling power roles for the town (tracker, Neapolitan, and Odd Night Doctor).

The 1-shot BP works well in tandem with odd-night doctor as well because it increases the chances that town will gain a day. Odd-night doctor by itself isn't all that helpful because the chances of having two saves are pretty minimal which basically means even with a successful save, town will just have to play with an even number of players.

I think it's just smart setup design to have a lot of weaker PRs in a setup with Neapolitan to make it harder to confirm and POE scum out mechanically.

[BlackVoid]

Only the role is confirmable. Scum neighborizers are a thing so it doesn't say anything about alignment.

[BlackVoid]

can you explain again what you're not liking about errant's recent posts?

Okay, he comes in pointing out a bunch of reasons Gustavo is town. Or whatever that was where he lists a bunch of options and asks people which they think it is. There's an implication that he doesn't think Gustavo is going to flip scum. The obvious conclusion from his POV would be that I'm scum. But he doesn't really attack me, question me, ISO me, or try to figure out my alignment. He reads like he's playing coy to let me push the Gustavo lynch through and set it up in a way that he looks better. I don't think he'd actually look better, more that scum really like to position themselves in a way that they are right. He's not going to burn his towncred pushing one of us when we're doing it for him.

His behavior during the N_M lynch was also not townie. I might have said this but maybe not: he came in at the end and unvoted N_M after he'd been hammered. If he's scum, I suspect it was a fake unvote and he knew that N_M was already hammered and he was just trying to look good from it. He then said I was towny but also implied that I was scum. His behavior towards me has definitely been one of trying not to antagonize me while also having me as a voting option. I don't think he wanted me to tunnel him with full force.

But Gustavo is

frustrating

. Even if he's town, there's no real chance he's going to figure out I'm town or Errant is scum and he tries to apply these hardline scumtells and push them as universally applicable without context. I'm scumreading his slot mainly for 1. Stungun's interactions, 2. His trying to derail Momrangal's lynch, 3. That vote hop on Gamma. I had a feeling that one of N_M or Gustavo were probably scum from those late votes.

But you're right about his frustration. Him asking to be hammered did give me pause. That's why it's a hard decision. They both have things that make them really town.

Regarding your 3698, me townreading you is probably the least alignment indicative thing I've done. If I'm scum, I'd definitely townread you for sure. You're getting hung up on something I'd do as either alignment. But there are things I'd only do as town: you pointing this out earlier but my push on Nauci fits in that category. I'm way too involved and active to be scum here. I suspected both flipped scum early on (although Errant did too). Then there's the guilty on me from TheWorst. It just makes way more sense for TheWorst to neighborize a partner and fake a guilty on a townie than the other way around. Guiltying a partner at that point without knowing the setup is basically suicide for scum. He'd have to explain his survival. He might ultimately be POE'd by other PRs. He had you and others scumreading him. He knew his days were numbered and he wanted to take someone down with him.

Another thing that crossed my mind is why he chose me specifically. He did it shortly after I replaced in. My guess was that he felt threatened by my analysis. If it is indeed Errant/TheWorst/Momrangal, then my replace in were really good because I had them all as scum. I'll have to check the timeline on how much I said before he started saying I should be investigated though. But that's not really a solid point.

As long as I don't get lynched, we're guaranteed a win. You're getting way too hung up on what I said in the hydra PT about me trying to copy townread players. You've never actually seen me as scum and this is not even close to what it looks like. For example, I'd never push Irrelephant as scum. He'd be more trouble than his lynch would be worth. I'd probably be hard-townreading Nauci. I don't think I'd even catch that she's a PR but even if I did, it's like you said, I wouldn't be pushing her. I'd not defend Not_Mafia. I'd anticipate that he's a mislynch that needs to be cashed in at some point. Yeah, I pushed him later but that was POE and I wouldn't put myself in such a silly position where I have a fake a convincing reason I'm changing my mind on him.

I'd play like Errant did. If I saw Momrangal wagon as a likelihood, I'd get on the wagon early. I wouldn't agonize so much over which of my buddies to bus. I wouldn't ask them both to claim and lock them in when claims are a weapon that can be used later on. But most importantly, I wouldn't be here and solving the game for as much time as I have. As town, I always want to be online, and always think about the game. I'm more laid back as scum.

[BlackVoid]

What I don't like about his posting are the mysterious townreads on Nauci (claiming that Nauci is making good points and focused on getting reads is flat-out wrong. The townread on Irrelephant is also not understandable). Mysteriously having me at the bottom of his readslist is weird too.

His progression on Momrangal is a bit too one-dimensional. He consistently suspects Momrangal for reasons that aren't very strong, hops on mid-wagon and stays there, pointing out pre-flip associatives. I couldn't help thinking that if I were scum, this is how I would bus.

This still applies.

[BlackVoid]

If you're so sure I'm scum, then why would you be mad at Irrelephant if you expect him to lynch me next? If you are not, we really should talk about Errant. Skitter isn't scum but there's a very realistic chance Errant is and I feel like part of the reason people are feeling lost/paranoid is that they're dismissing him as town based primarily on reactions around the neighborhood.

[BlackVoid]

One of these blowups are fake and I'm not sure which one. I'm not even sure what Errant is blowing up at as opposed to logically respond to points raised against them. I'll have lunch and come back and deconstruct his post.

@Irrelephant, I'm happy to have a discussion on why Errant is town. At this point, it doesn't seem like anyone would lynch Errant (Gustavo is just tunneling me, skitter isn't budging on her townread, you seem set on Gustavo, and Errant is not going to vote himself) so lynching Gustavo and 1v1'ing Errant tomorrow seems like the best way to assure a town win from my POV.

But if you are able to explain why you have that townread, it'll help give some insights and maybe help make a decision where we don't have to go to LYLO.

[BlackVoid]

Okay, screw it, lost a post.

[BlackVoid]

bv, this might be a weird thing to say but i'm getting the vibe that you kinda want me to scumread errant

Okay, this is getting a bit frustrating to explain, perhaps it's a communication failure on my end.

I have the same misgiving that you do on Gustavo. Would scum really ask to be hammered? Would scum really self-vote at this point when the game would end. The obvious implication for me everytime this happens is that Errant is scum. Errant himself I'm not townreading outside of those isolated reactions regarding the neighborhood guilty.

I brought up multiple points why his behavior is scummy but you're just holding onto that read based on very isolated evidence and getting paranoid of me instead every time I try to get you to reconsider. You're confirmation-biasing your read on Errant.

Everytime Gustavo does something townie, you back off and wonder "would scum really do that?" but you never arrive at the obvious conclusion that if he's town, then Errant is scum. Then that somehow morphs into "maybe BV is scum" and then back to wanting to lynch Gustavo. We're kind of going around in circles at this point.

also i kinda skimmed thru tw's iso again and he was shading your slot a lot when you replaced in, complaining that he didn't want to read ur posts - he had to have decided that he wanted to shade his partner basically from when u repped in

also tw's plan kinda imploded because bernie incidentally tracked him, so i'm thinking what he wanted to happen in an ideal universe - you get lynched. i'm still having a very hard believing he thought could coast on that, or that scum!you didn't bus him given that you were in a much better spot than him. i don't htink he was planning on getting lynched - he was setting this up for a day or so and was using that to coast

(like even before you repped in - now that i think about it i don't think he concocts this plot with an empty-math slot overnight. although tbf he could have just had a general 'claim pr' plan that only solidified after you rep in)

i'm trying to get over my paranoia because i think ur very very likely town here on play but it's just not something i can dismiss easily because like ... everyone's very town rn and pocketing me is how scum!you wins so i don't want to just discount that possibility

All of those reasons are great reasons I'm town. And there are more. Summarized here:

1. Setup suggests I'm town (1-shot BP + Odd night doc)
2. TheWorst faking a guilty on me if I were scum is basically gamethrowing at that point.
3. You are correct that if I were scum, I'd have planned it differently.
4. I would not have pushed Nauci and Irrelephant as scum. In fact, I'd consider it very suboptimal since attacking good townies always puts you in the spotlight.
5. My reasons for scumreading Nauci on being informed.
6. My play around Momrangal/TheWorst wagons. I'd not be so indecisive. I'd anticipate that one of them were getting lynched and just push that person.
7. Finally, most importantly, I can't sustain this level of activity and gamesolving over so, so long as scum.

You not wanting to "discount the possibility of me being scum" because scum me would townread you is really kinda ridiculous at this point. I'd townread you no matter what my alignment is. Continuing to bring up something completely null and getting paranoid over it when literally everything points to me being town is something I'm just not understanding. Yeah, I'd call you town even if I'm scum, so what?

I think it's because of that comment I made about how I'd pocket town players that you're so worried that I could be doing it here. But that's literally what most scum players would do. There's nothing grand or insightful or new about it. It would also very much not look like this. I'd do what Errant did. Things like mysteriously having Irrelephant/Nauci as his top townreads which I think is a somewhat superficial reading for that phase of the game. Irrelephant's most towny posts came much later and Nauci - Nauci was literally practicing for her coding boot camp and that's why she posted all those VCs. She didn't explain this until D4 after she claimed. That and the informed perspective thing I mentioned earlier.

Anyways, I'm probably around 60-40 at Gustavo-Errant. If you're going to re-evaluate Errant, we can actually solve this today but if I'm just going to get more of what's happened so far, just lynch Gustavo and sort between me and Errant tomorrow.

Obviously, I agree with Irrelephant that even if Gustavo is town, I don't want him in LYLO. If Errant is scum, I'd be much more confident in being able to present a coherent arguement than Gustavo's theatrics and insults.

I think he's slightly more likely scum than Errant just because it already seemed like he was going to get lynched ANYWAYS. I wouldn't rule out a last ditch effort of "lynch me" hoping to get people to back off and do precisely what you just did.

[BlackVoid]

Sorry that post sounded rather irritated. I'm just trying to understand what more you want from me here. I could understand your initial reaction of well "MathDino didn't do anything but rap so I'm default paranoid of your slot" but you're bringing up nearly the exact same argument nearly a month into the game.

My scumgame is not any better than yours no matter what that one comment may have led you to believe.

[BlackVoid]

@Irrelephant, I typed up a longer post for you but that was the one I lost so I'll summarize it.

Your reasons for why Errant is town are similar to what I brought up earlier in 3573 so I'm not sure why you claimed that they are simplistic. If I thought they were strong enough reasons to "know" he was town, I'd be more comfortable with the gamestate but I don't think so. They all feel like reaching even when I brought them up at first - as an effort to set Errant aside and get some clarity on the game. There's nothing that's solid and powerful that makes me truly believe that yeah, he's town and the game is solved.

[BlackVoid]

Bottomline, there's pretty much no reason for TheWorst to fake-claim a guilty on his partner and essentially throw the game. Guiltying a townie as a last ditch effort to get a mislynch in before he dies is actually pretty good scumplay and much better than silently getting lynched. I should be clear for all intents and purposes and Irrelephant and skitter both swimming around in endless paranoia is quite honestly baffling at this point.

[BlackVoid]

I suppose based on setup, it is more likely Gustavo. Errant's claim doesn't fit into the setup as well as mine does but it definitely acts as a counter to neapolitan limiting the number of people that can be cleared which is smart setup design. That and the timing of Gustavo's votes and unvotes on himself and asking for hammer gives me more of a "get people to not lynch him WIFOM" vibe than a genuine townie accepting lynch while posting their reads vibe. Because everytime we agree on Gustavo-scum, he does something ridiculous and its "oh, would scum do that?" So, it's probably Gustavo. Hopefully.

[BlackVoid]

Me, skitter, and Errant all said something similar at some point. I don't know if there's much to be read into it. They had some partner-like interactions but with the way the day played out, it did look unlikely that both concensus scumreads were scum. I think it's plausible scum might say it as well since it's a reasonable thing to say.

Where are you at with your reads?

[BlackVoid]

I don't have much else to add either. Fine with Gustavo lynch.

[BlackVoid]

Okay, it's not skitter so it's definitely Errant. I was fearing that this might happen for a while but the Gustavo lynch was definitely a mix of "can't have him in LYLO" and him looking scummy as opposed to me being absolutely 100% sure he was scum. I didn't feel like I could plausibly get Errant lynched today even if I re-read and concluded he was scummier. So this was the only practical outcome here. Skitter and to some extent Irrelephant were really conf-biased in their read there.

town would have had a better chance of winning if they lynched bv today imo.

You tunneling me was at least part of the reason I just wanted you flipped today. If you had worked with me and considered Errant, I'd have been more inclined to try to change everyone's mind. There's no scenario in which me getting mislynched is a good outcome for town. It would certainly have been frustrating to watch you and Errant go at each other from the dead thread while everybody conf-biased their townreads on Errant and lynched you and town losing.

[BlackVoid]

I'll be looking most closely at BV, tomorrow, actually

Think I gave up on him too easily when he AtE'd my paranoia

I didn't appeal to emotion. I appealed to logic.

Which scenario is more likely: TheWorst guiltying a partner or TheWorst neighborizing/fake-neighborizing a partner and trying to mislynch a townie before he goes down?

Keep in mind that in the former scenario, he was almost guaranteed to lose because he didn't know what other PRs were in the game, he didn't know if he could explain his continued survival. He wasn't particularly townread either.

[BlackVoid]

As a pre-amble to what's coming tomorrow, I'm going to suggest that skitter and whichever conf-town is alive tomorrow try and logically consider my arguments as opposed to vote based on paranoia. The most evidence suggests I'm town. The setup suggests I'm town. I'm obviously a better debater than Errant. Don't discount my arguments and give him the win because he ATE'd or got mad or whatever else scum keep doing. His play today has been the definition of how scum would approach this situation. He laid low. He never pushed any lynch. He pretty much stayed in the background. It's the kind of feeling scum sometimes do when they are townread and don't want to upset the status quo by impacting the game too much.

[BlackVoid]

Well BV said Errant = town here, so will be interesting to see him lynch Skitter ...

I did say I thought Errant was town in that one post but if you've been following my ISO, you'll see that I was really unsure and kept trying to push people to consider Errant as well. But everyone pretty much dismissed him as town, and there were enough scummy things in Gustavo's and his predecessor's ISO that I could never really feel confident in Gustavo-town either. If I thought he was town, I'd have defended him.

Skitter is town. That's one read I've been fully confident in. I'd say over 99% confident. So, it's Errant.

[BlackVoid]

You tunneling me was at least part of the reason I just wanted you flipped today. If you had worked with me and considered Errant, I'd have been more inclined to try to change everyone's mind.

God this misrep. I didn’t tunnel anyone. I voted who I thought fit as scum and the moment I voted you, you immediately took errant out of the equation.

Not true. You spent a lot of time pushing flawed logic regarding the nightkill and you also insisted that the lynch has to be between you or me today. It didn't feel like Errant was viable partly based on your behavior so obviously I'm going to push for your lynch over mine.

If you thought Errant was scum, you should have been considering that possibility in thread as opposed to making a case on me because you could.

[BlackVoid]

There's no scenario in which me getting mislynched is a good outcome for town.

Knowing if you are or aren’t a Bp is the single most useful info town needs today. Town doesn’t get that info.

Dude, this is the same flawed logic I've dismantled multiple times. Only one of us could have been shot but both of us could be town. The other one would simply be the town that wasn't shot. Why the heck would we flip anyone on that basis?

[BlackVoid]

How am I supposed to prove my role right now? If by right now, you meant by lynching myself this day phase, what you suggested is probably one of the most anti-town things possible. The only slot you know is town is yourself. It is part of your job as a townie to show people that you are town based on play without them needing to see your flip to know that you are town.

I also didn't say it was similar. I acknowledged that you were more active here. That actually gave me pause. What was similar is that even there, you seemed to come across as this really conf-biased townie in the way you did here. So, that wasn't a towntell for you.

[BlackVoid]

Lol at "solving the WIFOM on if the worst faked a guilty." No, I'm clear because he faked a guilty on me. Skitter is town. This should be auto-win. But for some reason, skitter and Irrelephant are really paranoid of me and I have to talk them down before we can seal it.

[BlackVoid]

Anyways, I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you. Even knowing you're town doesn't help me understand you any better.

For Irrelephant and skitter, I'd suggest spending the night phase doing at least some meta-research on me. I don't know how distinguishable Errant's play is between alignments but I'm a lot better as town than scum and players like that are always going to be easier to read based on content.

[BlackVoid]

Current reads:

skitter30
Shoshin
Bernie Sanders
Gustavo

Nauci
Keyser Soze

Not_Mafia

the worst
Errantparabola
Irrelephant11
Momrangal

Also, this shows that I'm a threat and TheWorst felt the need to fake a guilty on me just because leaving me alive would be dangerous. Three of my four scumreads were scum with my Irrelephant read being my only error as far as post-replacement reads are concerned. Actually, I'm pretty proud of this post tbh.

[BlackVoid]

He's actually been saying I should be investigated before I made that post. I'm not sure if it's because he legitimately wanted an investigation wasted on me and only later thought claiming a guilty was a good strategy given he could point to this crumb or he decided then and there that he would pretend to investigate me although he may not have decided what to claim and whether to say innocent or guilty.

[BlackVoid]

VOTE: Errantparabola

[BlackVoid]

I think I've said most of what I wanted to say on Errant so just waiting on Keyser and Skitter at this point. (Hope you feel better btw skitter).

One thing I wanted to point out though is to not underestimate what scum are capable of regarding neighborhoods. In a game I modded, I gave scum a neighborizer. He neighborized his partner and had a detailed 2-page conversation with him before he neighborized a townie. It was all really authentic-sounding. Here's the link. If scum can fake that level of neighborhood planning, I wouldn't put it past even an average scum player to post an authentic sounding "paraphrase" of a fake conversation.

[BlackVoid]

I could see why you'd think that but my guess is that he probably just didn't want to attack a town-MathDino given their history. (Regarding the post before your latest one). I need to go but I'll be back in an hour or so if you have any questions you want answered in real time.

[BlackVoid]

bv ur being very quiet and it's actually low-key disconcerting me

i shall now try to look at votecounts

I don't have much to add at this point. I made my decision and I was right. Just waiting for you and Keyser to make yours. I asked if you wanted to talk in real time and you said you were thinking aloud so I'm just letting you solve. If you were expecting like a case on errant/towncase on me, I did these already last DP. Errant hasn't said anything in response.

[BlackVoid]

Regarding the weird VCs, I don't think the early votes were meaningful enough where there was an actual threat of lynch.

Regarding EP looking good through VC's, I would say it's a bad thing. Even much earlier before I knew he was scum, the way he treated Momrangal made me think he was bussing. Or at least it looked like what I would do if I were scum.

So, I looked over Errantparabola's posting. There are some things I liked. I think the claim and neighborizing TheWorst felt pretty town because I feel like mafia's go-to option as a neighborizer would be to neighborize a "townread" and fool them in the neighborhood. That has an astounding success rate. I also think his play around TheWorst claim was genuine. The delayed part of the neighborhood also feels like a town modifier which makes it weaker.

What I don't like about his posting are the mysterious townreads on Nauci (claiming that Nauci is making good points and focused on getting reads is flat-out wrong. The townread on Irrelephant is also not understandable). Mysteriously having me at the bottom of his readslist is weird too.

His progression on Momrangal is a bit too one-dimensional. He consistently suspects Momrangal for reasons that aren't very strong, hops on mid-wagon and stays there, pointing out pre-flip associatives. I couldn't help thinking that if I were scum, this is how I would bus.

So, I'm pretty conflicted here.

That was my reaction to his posts

[BlackVoid]

Errant saying that I'm coasting is bullshit. He's the one who has been coasting all through D5 and today. Him having a final is fair but he's been pretty low key for a rather long time. He can't say what the compelling reasons he's town are because he isn't town, and just because scum can be self-aware doesn't mean they can replicate their towngame. His "doomsday" attitude is also indicative of scum. Even if everyone concluded that he's scum, actual town who knows that they are wrong would have an easier time explaining why simply because it's the truth. The "I didn't think about who I neighborized" feels like a blanket defense to pre-empt any inconsistencies. It's hard to believe that he didn't put thought into who he was going to converse with outside of the game thread.

Errant's argument that TheWorst was trying to look scummy is a stretch considering how hard TheWorst was trying to swing a lynch on me and appealing to Rask to switch over. Also, TheWorst claiming after I said I was leaving for work is actually pretty clearing for me because it only makes sense if he wanted a townie lynched with minimal resistance as opposed to wanting to theater it up with a buddy. (He couldn't have done it just so I look good obviously because the intent would have been my lynch, not his own. Rask's result caused his plan to fail.)

Errant voting himself to confirm skitter is scummy on a different level. Before Gustavo's lynch, he called both me and skitter town. But afterwards, he spent no time or effort figuring out which of me or skitter are scum. Sure, his townread on skitter was always stronger but from someone with the worldview he claimed to have, town spends some time looking at both options before making his decision. "Even if skitter is scum, we have lost" is not a town attitude to take in LYLO.

He also hasn't refuted Keyser's narrative which is accurate by explaining his actions from a town POV because there isn't one. Just ATE on how he's not skilled and how townie I am (lol, he doesn't even deny that I'm very town).

@skitter, I talked about the N_M lynch a bit before. I'm sure we would agree that pushing a lynch by itself is not scummy. Your issue seems to be that you think I'm always a cautious player and this would be uncharacteristic/outside my townrange. It isn't. You haven't seen my full townrange in the three games we played together and I have pushed lynches hard and in a somewhat similar manner before. I linked you the example too.

[BlackVoid]

Excited about winning especially after losing my last two towngames. Whenever you are ready, Keyser.

[BlackVoid]

Yes! That feels good. Well played everyone. I was expecting Errant to shoot Keyser. I get the WIFOM value of killing Irrelephant but I think it would have been a closer game if Irrelephant was alive because it would have taken more work to convince him. Once Nauci outed clears on Keyser and Irrelephant, I knew that as long as me and skitter trusted each other, we could lynch everybody else and still win. So, while I was trying to end the game earlier, the priority was always to make sure that everybody understood that we were both town so that even in the worst case scenario where we mislynch two other townies, it would still be impossible to lose. I can't really regret lynching N_M at that point but I think Gustavo lynch could have been avoided.

Skitter played really well even by her standards, launching wagons on two scum on D2 and Keyser having EP as scum towards the end was refreshing. I thought Shoshin played really well being town and advancing the game. I'm also very impressed with Errant's claim and reactions during the "neighborhood" thing. I didn't get a chance to say this in game but I hope you feel better irl. Was also fun seeing Rask again. I just felt way more comfortable putting you down as a solid townread here. I think it's hilarious that you were so paranoid of me when the exact opposite happened to you before.

I'm probably taking a short break from mafia. Despite this game being fun, I just spent so many hours of effort on this that I'm not sure I can do again. But I'm glad it paid off in the end, Thanks for modding, brassherald!

[BlackVoid]

Blackvoid you were great! Your arguments were especially coherent when arguing your own towniness over Gustavo and EP. I was completely convinced by the time we lynched Gustavo. I said in the dead thread that I only stated I suspected you to survive the night and tunnel EP. Glad it worked out with Keyser living, though!

It was great playing with you too! My reaction after you got killed was I wondered whether anyone was going to use it against me that you suspected me so it could have backfired but glad to know that you were reading me as town all along.

@Shoshin, I probably will play again if I find the right playerlist/game size. This game was an exception in that it had a high page count but was enjoyable but I normally try to play in games of a more manageable size (I spectate first and decide if I want to replace into that game so I know what I'm getting). So, definitely hoping to see you again. Also, I was spectating the Tropical Mafia game and you were my strongest townread there. I was going to mention it in this game when somebody said you were lynched for being bad town that that wasn't true and that you got lynched because the JK hid info that could have cleared you but I forgot.

Bv idk why it took so long to townread you - it finally, finally clicked a couple of days ago irl

I'm glad you eventually did. I knew you'd see it. I lost my last two towngames but this is probably the fourth consecutive game we won as town. So, I guess I should just play with you since that seems to positively impact my winrate.

@Rask, I wanted to copy-paste this so bad in response to you, lol:

My scum game is MEDIOCRE I have negative winrate and average scum winrate is like 60-70%
WHERE IS THE PARANOIA COMING FROM

HOW DID I GET KNOWN AS A "OOOH SCARY BETTER LYNCH FOR HIS SCUMGAME" WITHOUT ACTUAL SCUM WINS WTF

Maybe next time, we'll both actually read each other correctly.

Also, agreed on Nauci's investigation choices. Couldn't have asked for better ones. I felt that Irrelephant was looking more townie but that paranoia would have been there for me as well.

[BlackVoid]

@Gustavo, since you seemed to want feedback (feel free to ignore otherwise), a couple things that might help - throughout D5, you turned the game into a "me or BV" situation where you kept insisting that one of us had to be lynched. From my perspective, knowing I'm town, I'd obviously want you lynched if we had to do you or me. You never really put Errant on the table as a lynch so despite me thinking he was scum at various points and Keyser having figured him out, it felt like pretty much a waste of time trying to lynch anyone but you. Even if you literally said "lynch BV or Errant," it would have been better because you'd be putting that Errant option on the table.

I also still don't understand why the night one no kill necessitated one of us being lynched. Only one of us could have been nk'd but both of us could still be town so one of us flipping town tells us nothing about the other's alignment. If you really believed that Errant was scum, making a case on me just because you could doesn't feel like optimal town play? In fact, I'd expect scum to do something like that.

I really wanted to say something like "Gustavo, can we put aside our differences for a day and try and discuss Errant?" but I knew you'd just call it "desperate scum appealing to me" or something like that so I saved it as a draft and never posted it. I can't speak for everyone here but I think at least part of the reason you were lynched was because you weren't really

approachable

.