Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[Formerfish]

VOTE: Iceman

He was town in his first 2 games and played, now he goes missing under suspicious circumstances, smells like rat scum to me.

Also, Oka, I'm still not your dancing monkey and dont have to prove shit

[Formerfish]

1) What sort of activity can we expect from you this game?
2) Have you played forum mafia before, and if so, where, and how has that informed your play?
3) Do you prefer hunting mafia or manipulating town, and why?

1. It depends on how the game goes with everyone else. I can pop off 50 posts in a night if there is something to dive into, or I could post once a day or two if nothing is going on. I do tend to post in spats.
2. I started playing on gamefaqs.com in a weird board a few people took over. It was a bit different with 3 day days and 1 day nights. It made us a little quicker to pull triggers on people and could make things very swingy. Here I've calmed down a bit and have started to understand the game on a different level.
3. I prefer town hunting, leading to scum lynches. Being scum literally takes to much out of me by the end of the game, and I'm not a good enough scum Hunter to look for them outright at the beginning. I like to get some town reads, compare notes and then PoE who is scum.

[Formerfish]

I'm not missing!!! I'm driving home from Utah. It's a 36 hour drive. The wife and I have been taking turns driving.

Anyways. Never not vote formerfish.

VOTE: FormerFish

I like this. Last time you did that we had a perfect win. Let's do it again here.

[Formerfish]

Anyway, I can't tell if we're out of RVS or not, and I haven't seen anything particularly scummy yet, so I guess I'll just hold onto my vote for now.

"Are we out of rvs?"
"I haven't seen anything scummy yet."
"Even though I just answered my own question, I'm not going to vote."

I think we just found something scummy folks.

[Formerfish]

It's scummy because they are making it seem like they don't want to vote because we may be out of rvs already, not very likely when we are barely on page 2. They answer their own question by mentioning that nothing scummy has really come up, which would mean that most likely we are still in rvs.

So if they were concerned about being out of rvs as a reason to have not voted, their own reasoning is negated by their own observation of the game, and should have felt comfortable voting freely.

For some reason they didn't.

[Formerfish]

Fuck. I meant to not answer that until they said something, but I just smoked a bowl on the shitter and forgot.

[Formerfish]

Mostly because they are newer and have 1 post in so far. I don't like the post and it's something I would like to engage her on, but until she gets back in here and posts more I can't do that.

1 post that's not quite good does not a scumbag make.

Shit, can we get rid of that altslip?

[Formerfish]

No that's the alt that has come out of retirement after a few years. My brother and I are playing again.

[Formerfish]

That a serious vote there?

[Formerfish]

Fuck. I meant to not answer that until they said something, but I just smoked a bowl on the shitter and forgot.

UNVOTE: maggie

VOTE: FormerFish

Not a fan of drug references

Um. Why are you voting him? Do you think it's scummy that he made a drug reference? I feel like I'm missing something.

I thought we were still in RVS, and as Maggie is being replaced, and isn’t around, thought I’d switch my vote. So I didn’t think the drug reference was scummy, but just the reason for my random vote.

I was going to say, me being stoned is definitely NAI. I can do that from either side of the aisle.

[Formerfish]

Sort of like the way FF put down his thoughts on Flicker then immediately oopsed and said he had meant to wait for a response to her. It feels like a bit of a town thing to have thoughts on something that you're holding on to, and I think if he was mafia he would probably be more aware of what he was doing, rather than just plopping them down right away.

I'm not a huge fan of way he's using logic there

, feels a little forced, but I also thought the way Flicker held on to her vote was a little off, and I can believe that he just took that feeling a little further than I did.

Its just that I'm having flashbacks to another newer player that like 3 of us just played a game with, 2.8. He was very stuck on rules and procedures during the game he was scum, and im pretty sure trinity was the partner there. He kept talking about procedures and how he wasnt sure if he was following them correctly. It led to his lynch on day 1.

To me the idea that someone is going to scrutinize everything you say is one from scum. As town I dont give a shit what I say or how I say it. I can either back it up or i end up being wrong and I may end up eating rope. If I'm a PR then that sucks, but as a VT one can only dream of eating the n1 kill. As scum I am much more aware of what I say and when. Everything I do is crafted to try and prey upon someones weak spot.

I've also quite recently played with a new player who awkwardly played rvs in that game and he ended up being scum.

This is all anecdotal.

[Formerfish]

could you explain what transparency is?[/spoiler]

So like, imagine you've got a curtain, and behind the curtain is a big fat messy glob of brainjuice containing all your thoughts about the game. Everyone has their own special and unique glob of brainjuice, is part of being human. When you talk about things in the game, you're extracting stuff from your brainjuices and presenting them to rest of the game, basically by parting the curtain a little and sharing a little sample.

In it's most extreme form, you just make the curtain entirely see-through and everyone can just see all of your brainjuice, it's spilling out everywhere and it's kind of disgusting and no one really wants to look at it but it's also sorta compelling and they can't help but look. Practically speaking, though, it's kinda helpful to form your thoughts about things in a coherent way so that other people don't have to do a lot of work to figure out what the heck all that juice shit is that's happening. That would be, like, making a big ol' soup and when you come out the curtain parts and everyone can take a bit of a look at the big messy yucky glob and then they're given this delicious soup to eat and drink and they kinda get the best of both worlds. A bit of a view of the messy shit behind the curtain and a nice taste of coherency, and they can tell that that soup came from that glob because they can see that both have the same qualities, child like mother.

Thing is, if you're mafia, your brainjuice isn't like everyone else's. Your brainjuice is all contained in a neat little vat and there's nothing messy about it. It has air bubbles and shit, it's basically curated. So when you're bringing out your soup and ladle, people will see the vat behind the curtain and they'll be like, what? Who are you? And like, mafia can dress up their brainjuice and try to make it all messy, they can have these delicious soup recipes to feed everyone, but when it comes down to it, when they're doing the "transparent" thing and showing everyone what they think, there's no foundation to it, all they have is a silly-looking vat, they had to invent everything to make it seem like other people's ugly crap, they can't really part the curtain because if they do then people will notice that there's a disconnect between the soup and what's behind. And they're kinda smug about it, too, more often than not, you know. Power and secrecy does things to people.

Makey sense?

I think I love this.

[Formerfish]

@nancy what are the point of these questions, especially question number 3

Now that nancy's responded, I want to know: What was the point of

this

question? You don't seem to have a problem with them, given you answered them (in post 18, although with less detail than basically everyone else). It also seems fairly obvious that at least one of the ways nancy uses them is for hunting, given how she'd already started sorting people based on their answers (12, 15). Plus, it seems a little off to me how it took you so long to wonder about them.

because some people like to play RQS over RVS and usually RQS ends up with a stalled game with no where to go because game quickly devolves into asking questions about NAI things.

Hey, @FF @stan @Trinity, does this feel like a scum-scum interaction to you? Feel free to punt on it.

I think they are both overreacting to the situation. Oka seems to have played a game with RQS in it, as he stated how games turn out after they appear. So he would know what nancy was doing and why. The questions are pretty standard, and didn't oka answer them himself?

Flicker is giving off a scum caught for reasons they cant believe they were caught for, so they think they should lash out and play like really aggressively. I dont like their play here at all so far.

Could they be the scum team here? Meh... If I were to guess which was scum if it was 50/50 it'd be flicker right now (and just an aside. I find it weird that you corrected me in a post when I was unsure of your gender so I used a general term to address you. Like I didn't call you a dude. And its not a huge thing, just seemed odd to make your priority with my posting.)

[Formerfish]

huh?

Your unvote is weird.

Why was it weird? He just pointed out that trinity voting brought me to l-2, and his vote was on me as well. Since his vote on me was in rvs and we are clearly out of it, it would make sense to move or at least remove a rvs vote which is currently the leading wagon based solely off of rvs votes.

[Formerfish]

has iceman even posted?


also, I dont like the fact that you are asking about a scumteam of 2 people(that might be newbies. I dont know) and have had almost zero thread presence

C'mon, its not a huge deal to make that joke. And Iceman had posted at that point, mostly to say that he wasn't forgetting about the game. He seems to be here now. I have like 2 games played with him recently. We'll see whats up with him.

[Formerfish]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

[Formerfish]

or as a scum player they can do exactly what you are doing, leading an inexperienced town to have extreme paranoia against an ic and get a free mislynch

Bro this is a bad line of thinking you are allowing yourself to go down. Its basically saying that someone is town until they are not. I played a game as scum where I was getting run up and went with a doc claim as a fake. I knew that my time was limited because after the first night of not dying and laughing it off to those wacky scumbags and their wifomy choices I had a much harder time explaining it the next day. By the 3rd i was a lynch no matter what. My role in that game after my claim was to cause as much damage as I could in the time I had.

Again, scum will usually kill town!ICs before we can ever get really suspicious of them. If they are alive long enough for us to be suspicious they deserve a closer look.

Ninjas everywhere: This full catch up is taking me a lot longer then anticipated. I apologize im like spamming the thread from a few pages ago, its my 1st day off in a week, I have my daughter and im chasing after her a bit, and sometimes I forget im making a post and then just post it without looking at all the ones posted in the meantime because im still a page behind those.

[Formerfish]

what im saying is experienced scum can easily pull of IC lynches

I also feel like scum is going to night kill the active/most experienced players first. So it brings in the whole..... why is the IC still alive after a few nights?

i mean these can probably be the exact words some scum SE's use when they want to lynch an IC

And what he is saying is that only when an IC is alive on like day 3 should you look into them more and think about them as a viable lynch candidate based on the fact that scum didnt kill them night 1 or 2. He is not saying that the IC gets powerlynched on day 1 on page 4 because they could hurt us if they arent town so we might as well bite the bullet now and throw the baby out with the bathwater. Stop trying to make it seem like Iceman is about to run a train on nancy. Sorry for the visuals there.

[Formerfish]

what joke??

Oka made a joke about the scum team being the 2 people who havent really posted much. In a newbie that could very well be what happens sometimes. Town has a want to get out there and meet each other. We want to size each other up, really get each others weight. We can only really do that by being right next to them, or as I know it to be called, dancing. This is how I town hunt and where I get my reads from. Scum has to be weary of everything they do each time they interact with people because its all a lie. What scum says to one person they have to say to all, and when you are lying lies tend to build on themselves until there is this invisible web. Then you have town people who start to dive into every word someone has posted and you start to see the web being built over time. Thats why is so hard for scum to hide forever, and why newbie scum try to hide until they cant anymore.

[Formerfish]

(and just an aside. I find it weird that you corrected me in a post when I was unsure of your gender so I used a general term to address you. Like I didn't call you a dude. And its not a huge thing, just seemed odd to make your priority with my posting.)

Uh, I don't think that's weird at all and it's perfectly within anyone's right to insist on how people gender them. Is not your place to find it weird how other people engage with their own gender. Am not really sure what the point of this aside is since this isn't even remotely game-related. I really don't want anyone to feel like they can't speak up for themselves this game.

I mean I guess this might not be the best place for this and I apologize for being it up in the first place, but I just felt like I had been chastised for something I didn't feel I had really done. We don't need to talk about it anymore right now.

[Formerfish]

huh?

Your unvote is weird.

Why was it weird? He just pointed out that trinity voting brought me to l-2, and his vote was on me as well. Since his vote on me was in rvs and we are clearly out of it, it would make sense to move or at least remove a rvs vote which is currently the leading wagon based solely off of rvs votes.

Naked unvotes are wolfy.

It's slightly a meme.

Are you always this... logical?

I tend to be, which is why its so taxing on me to be scum. I constantly try to figure out peoples motivations for doing things. It kinda ends up being like trying to see into the future and past at the same time based of what you are seeing in the present. And with my profession I am constantly trying to find the root causes of issues and fix them to make life easier for myself and the people I work with.

[Formerfish]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

maybe he is town but im not getting many scumreads rn and i feel like his post on nancy is fake and the comment on IC's sounds like he wants to keep his lynch options open

When have you ever had strong scum reads on day 1, thats not really your style man? See, its posts like this that do worry me about you. Of course hes keeping his options open, its day 1, we all have our options open. I would not lynch like 3 people right now, the rest are all lynchable to some degree. This is overly aggressive play from you at this point in the game, and its propelling you further up my list of to die.

[Formerfish]

it feels like it was phrased in a way that allows iceman to build upon it later to attack nancy w/o really needing to build a legitimate in game case on her

like instead of saying something about nancy feels off, feels like she is controlling town he goes with the proposition that cannot really be argued against

So why is your first instinct to call him scum and vote him. Why wouldnt you talk to the newbie, dance if you will, so suss out his true machinations and intentions? Wouldn't that be a fantastic way to figure someone out? "Hey Iceman, could you explain this IC lynching business more?" Iceman: "Sure, here's a full explination." Oka: "Huh, I still have a question about blind lynching or if there will be cases?" Iceman: "I would look more closely at an IC alive on day 3, but if there was someone more likely to be scum, I would vote the other person and not the IC." Oka: "Ahhh... ok, I thought you were saying something different, my bad!"

[Formerfish]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

maybe he is town but im not getting many scumreads rn and i feel like his post on nancy is fake and the comment on IC's sounds like he wants to keep his lynch options open

When have you ever had strong scum reads on day 1, thats not really your style man? See, its posts like this that do worry me about you. Of course hes keeping his options open, its day 1, we all have our options open. I would not lynch like 3 people right now, the rest are all lynchable to some degree. This is overly aggressive play from you at this point in the game, and its propelling you further up my list of to die.

k

who is scum?

Right now im saying in you, flicker, stanley, and SA. You and flicker because of your attitudes and the way you are nit picking peoples statements to fit a profile you are trying to push, stanley for possible distancing in flicker ends up being scum, and SA because of activity.

[Formerfish]

because my vote is not on anyone and at this point im just going to grasp at straws to find scum

i mean i could go ahead and drop a vote on flicker but other people seem to be pushing that so I might as well do other stuff in the meantime

this game feels way too slow for my taste, gotta shake things up somehow

Give me back town!Oka who wanders around like mister Magoo without his glasses ass ending his way into fiding scum on day 2/3. When are you aggressive early game?

[Formerfish]

it's not the pagecount and number of posts that makes it slow its the lack of scumhunting and wagon forming which im at fault for but nonetheless its giving a slow impression

Lack of scum hunting? Its day 1 and we are on page, what, 8? We are still very much in the feeling each other out stage for anyone to have really strong feelings about wanting to hang anyone. Shit we can have hunches and we can have inklings, but if you are looking for a full blown case this early then you are scum and need to die.

Also, at you talking about the lack of wagons forming when you commented on not wanting to join the one on flicker and would rather do your own thing over there.

[Formerfish]

VOTE: Oka

Not into the aggro stance he is taking here. Not into the fact that he avoids a wagon while complaining about wagons not forming. This is not the town!Oka I know.

[Formerfish]

it's not the pagecount and number of posts that makes it slow its the lack of scumhunting and wagon forming which im at fault for but nonetheless its giving a slow impression

Lack of scum hunting? Its day 1 and we are on page, what, 8? We are still very much in the feeling each other out stage for anyone to have really strong feelings about wanting to hang anyone. Shit we can have hunches and we can have inklings, but if you are looking for a full blown case this early then you are scum and need to die.

Also, at you talking about the lack of wagons forming when you commented on not wanting to join the one on flicker and would rather do your own thing over there.

Hum. Kinda curious why you're not all over Flicker like white on rice right now

I would be if I saw anything in Oka's play that said he was town right now. I don't know Flicker and don't know how she plays. We could be taking something that happened at the outset of us meeting that has flavored our interactions in a way. I don't want to scum read someone based off a misunderstanding, I can stand to wait to actually try to sort her later. I think that Oka's play has been far and away more scummy, and I have something to base the read of him off of.

[Formerfish]

not the fact that its 2 random people, the fact that its 2 people with zero thread presence and that are noobs(if im not mistaken)

if thats not hella opportunistic idk what is

I guess, but like, he has some shape of a townread on everyone else, no?

so its just PoE then...

PoE D1???

I've got a lynch pool down to 4 based off my own personal PoE.

[Formerfish]

it's not the pagecount and number of posts that makes it slow its the lack of scumhunting and wagon forming which im at fault for but nonetheless its giving a slow impression

Lack of scum hunting? Its day 1 and we are on page, what, 8? We are still very much in the feeling each other out stage for anyone to have really strong feelings about wanting to hang anyone. Shit we can have hunches and we can have inklings, but if you are looking for a full blown case this early then you are scum and need to die.

Also, at you talking about the lack of wagons forming when you commented on not wanting to join the one on flicker and would rather do your own thing over there.

Hum. Kinda curious why you're not all over Flicker like white on rice right now

I would be if I saw anything in Oka's play that said he was town right now. I don't know Flicker and don't know how she plays. We could be taking something that happened at the outset of us meeting that has flavored our interactions in a way. I don't want to scum read someone based off a misunderstanding, I can stand to wait to actually try to sort her later. I think that Oka's play has been far and away more scummy, and I have something to base the read of him off of.

Okay, but like, you implied that anyone making cases this early is scum and needs to die, and Flicker did exactly that in her third post, so why don't you think that she needs to die?

No, I said that anyone expecting and whining about a lack of full blown cases right now is scum and should die. And she cased and voted Oka. If he flips red then we look to see if she voted him because she is town and found him out, or if she voted him as scum to distance herself. Either way she leads me to the same outcome I am looking for, and thats for Oka to swing right now.

[Formerfish]

Kinda want to wait until Flicker and stan have given their take on all this before I talk about my Oka read, would also be nice if Oka made a return to thread.

You are scoring more town points for this line of thinking with me by the way. Scum!nancy would just let me roll through town!Oka if that was what this was.

[Formerfish]

Kinda want to wait until Flicker and stan have given their take on all this before I talk about my Oka read, would also be nice if Oka made a return to thread.

You are scoring more town points for this line of thinking with me by the way. Scum!nancy would just let me roll through town!Oka if that was what this was.

Wait, why can't I be scum with Oka lmao

I mean, I guess you could, but I already have a town read working for you, so that would kind of weird for me to put out there when I don't think you are scum.

[Formerfish]

i mean its not that aggro but i guess you are entitled to your own opinion

When I compare it to the play that I know to be town from you based off our personal games it is much more aggressive. To be you usually make a bunch of self deprecating posts and talk about how you can't get a good hold of the game. Here its different, its like you just took a hit of lynch juice and you gotta let it out on someone now. Right now.

[Formerfish]

at this point im just waiting for the replacement to sarge to replace in and say something so i can vote them lol

I am very ok with my vote after this post, and implore others to join me in this endeavor to introduce Oka to rope.

[Formerfish]

it feels like it was phrased in a way that allows iceman to build upon it later to attack nancy w/o really needing to build a legitimate in game case on her

like instead of saying something about nancy feels off, feels like she is controlling town he goes with the proposition that cannot really be argued against

So why is your first instinct to call him scum and vote him. Why wouldnt you talk to the newbie, dance if you will, so suss out his true machinations and intentions? Wouldn't that be a fantastic way to figure someone out? "Hey Iceman, could you explain this IC lynching business more?" Iceman: "Sure, here's a full explination." Oka: "Huh, I still have a question about blind lynching or if there will be cases?" Iceman: "I would look more closely at an IC alive on day 3, but if there was someone more likely to be scum, I would vote the other person and not the IC." Oka: "Ahhh... ok, I thought you were saying something different, my bad!"

[Formerfish]

I also feel there was a lot more that you skimmed over from my posting on your behavior here in the game. Like you are editing what you want to respond to and how you want to respond to it.

Ninja- Maybe im reading to much into it, but that first line seems sassy.

And yeah, a town thing to do is not to throw down a vote at the most minor of perceived slights and maybe actually just engage the guy first since it was over something you thought he was saying and not what he actually said.

Is your vote still on him now?

[Formerfish]

pedit @ff wdym? like im editing down what you are saying or im missing questions that you have?
UNVOTE:
not anymore
probs going to iso some people and see if there is a potential case
sometimes when you engage with people they don't know if you are scumreading them or not so i like to throw down a vote to show hey, i think you might be scum. but you do you man.

pedit2: nope, rushing games are scummy but i dont feel like i want to rush the game, i feel like the game is dragging but w/e

I feel like there was a slew of posts from me addressing your scumreading Ice based off the IC thing. I feel like you quoted like one of them to respond to. So it feels like you are cherry picking from my posts to respond to only the parts you want to. Generally this is something that I try to intentionally do, and I don't know if I mentioned it in our last game together. Its why I post the way that I do.

[Formerfish]

Iceman, who do you think Oka's insistence that the game go fast is scummy?

On this forum it's generally regarded as scummy. I kind of agree. The downfall of town is chaos, lack of information, or rushing things. All of our power is in the day when we can discuss and review comments. Speeding that up creates chaos and causes town to make mistakes, miss information, or not have a chance to review past comments for accuracy.

Basically speed only benefits scum.

Scum lurks in order to starve the town of information.
Scum creates and appeals to emotional responses in order to create chaos.
Scum insists on speed I'm order to force people to make mistakes.

This is the stuff I saw in our first game together. I like this a lot.

Ninja- or you did do it on purpose because youre scum!oka?

[Formerfish]

pedit: well isn't that kinda ur job to figure out

Isn't that kinda what i'm doing?

[Formerfish]

yes

how are the results so far?

I'm getting the feeling they may be off but maybe you've done a retest so idk

I mean uhhh... not great

I would love to hear from anyone else regarding Oka, or am I just yelling out the window?

Damn the man!

Sorry.

[Formerfish]

Sorry, not sure how I managed to post the same thing twice below.

Did I miss something - Messiah Complex is someone new?

Ok, so FF, I know my vote for you was initially a random one, but I’m now starting to think you might actually be mafia. You seem to be playing a completely different way in this game. You were really aggressive then -you were like a dog with a bone in grilling people. I know, because I was mafia, and you scared me. This game, you don’t seem to be doing that at all. You even said that you didn’t like how someone else ( I think Oka) was being aggressive. It’s just not ringing true for me, so I’m leaving my vote with you, it’s a real one now.

I was suspicious of iceman a few posts back, especially as FF was defending him, and I felt that the ‘voting IC’ post was a bit strange, but I’m happy with the explanation and his later posts, and so think he’s town.

I have scum leans towards OkaPoka, because of the scumread and vote on me, and also Flicker, and strong town lean towards Nancy. Eragon has been pretty active since coming on and has put in a lot of effort, so I’m reading town on him.

Messiah Complex is an alt i play under with my brother. When i;m not paying attention i post from there occasionally. I will try not to have another slip here.

There is a difference between being overly aggressive towards someone over a small issue, and then there is what I do. I pick a person apart once they have put enough of themselves out there for me to get a hold of. Look at how I went after 2.8 in the last game. Once I had a bone I did go straight after him and wouldnt let up. Don't you see some similarities in what I am doing with Oka right now? Like, look at that game and figure out where it is that I started going after people. It wasn't on page 3. Comparing my play to what I said about Oka is disingenuous at best and scummy at worst. If this is the scum game you would have brought into a game with me you were right to kill me night 1.

[Formerfish]

The votes moved from FF to Flicker and who FF and Flicker are voting for.

Not quite, VC1.02 has Oka, Ice and Trinity on me, but those are all RVS votes. VC1.03 still the same 3. 1.04 no change. 1.05 Oka and Ice change their vote and only trinity is left on.

Flicker wasnt even on the board til 1.04 when nancy and stan voted her. She finally voted in 1.05 for Oka, and I could see a possibility for a bus vote from her on her partner here. Especially if she thought it could put some distance between the two of them.

FF might have gotten caught early and then talked his way out of things.

Nothing to get caught from when the votes are all hellos of sorts. I guess I am a likeable guy and have played a lot of newbie games recently so I am a player that they are going to remember and poke during rvs.

That said, I have known him to be lynchbait

O rly? have we played together? Where have you seen me as lynchbait?

, but a really good player

totally correct here

, so I have a Null read on that dynamic of the game, however, because both Flicker and FF are voting the same person who seems to have produced a wagon out of nowhere seems pretty suspect to me.

Nah dont sweat it. Heres what I see. Either my read on Flicker is wrong, and she is pushing a legit scum read in Oka, which I also happen to share, or she is scum with him and she is trying to distance herself with a fake blow up between the two and then a bus vote. Like I said, I came to a scum read on Oka dependent on my own variables. If flicker is helping achieve the goals I want to, it doesnt matter what her alignment is yet.

[Formerfish]

Surreptitious, ring a bell?

That has to be an alt because i just looked in my games played and didnt see a game called that. Help me out here man, im blickity blazed son.

Trinitys right, dopes for scumbags.

[Formerfish]

Quick, read game pls thx

Don't really want to. I usually don't even replace into games with 200+ posts, so you're lucky to have me as it is.

We can lynch this too.

[Formerfish]

Quick, read game pls thx

Don't really want to. I usually don't even replace into games with 200+ posts, so you're lucky to have me as it is.

We can lynch this too.

Try it. I'm Town this game so I'm not getting lynched.

Nah, im too busy trying to get Oka lynched, you should come over there with me. Or maybe retract what you said about me as a player since you mixed me up with someone else. Very ironic, or maybe not that song really fucked things up for me, that the topic you link to your next post apologizes for not knowing names. Its fitting.

[Formerfish]

in league champ select will check periodically when im dead

This seems like you let your text app choose a sentence.

[Formerfish]

But without reading the game you lack the context that would lend any sort of creadence to what you have to say. Looking at vote counts from early day 1 isn't going to tell much, and when you don't know why people voted for who they did you can't begin to understand the game state as is.

[Formerfish]

I would like to apologize now though to you. I was talking to a friend about it and they gave me a different perspective I hadn't thought about before. I was trying not to misgender you and in doing so I accidentally did what I was trying not to. I wasn't trying to belittle your feelings and if it came across that way I apologize for that as well.

[Formerfish]

I’m waiting for FF to reply to me about his game playing being less aggressive than normal.

I did?

Sorry, not sure how I managed to post the same thing twice below.

Did I miss something - Messiah Complex is someone new?

Ok, so FF, I know my vote for you was initially a random one, but I’m now starting to think you might actually be mafia. You seem to be playing a completely different way in this game. You were really aggressive then -you were like a dog with a bone in grilling people. I know, because I was mafia, and you scared me. This game, you don’t seem to be doing that at all. You even said that you didn’t like how someone else ( I think Oka) was being aggressive. It’s just not ringing true for me, so I’m leaving my vote with you, it’s a real one now.

I was suspicious of iceman a few posts back, especially as FF was defending him, and I felt that the ‘voting IC’ post was a bit strange, but I’m happy with the explanation and his later posts, and so think he’s town.

I have scum leans towards OkaPoka, because of the scumread and vote on me, and also Flicker, and strong town lean towards Nancy. Eragon has been pretty active since coming on and has put in a lot of effort, so I’m reading town on him.

Messiah Complex is an alt i play under with my brother. When i;m not paying attention i post from there occasionally. I will try not to have another slip here.

There is a difference between being overly aggressive towards someone over a small issue, and then there is what I do. I pick a person apart once they have put enough of themselves out there for me to get a hold of. Look at how I went after 2.8 in the last game. Once I had a bone I did go straight after him and wouldnt let up. Don't you see some similarities in what I am doing with Oka right now? Like, look at that game and figure out where it is that I started going after people. It wasn't on page 3. Comparing my play to what I said about Oka is disingenuous at best and scummy at worst. If this is the scum game you would have brought into a game with me you were right to kill me night 1.

[Formerfish]

SRing me because I am not caught up is a horrible reason to SR someone. Like, seriously?

Lets not get things twisted here. No one is scum reading you because you arent "caught up." People are scum reading you because you said that you were not going to catch up. Like not to be a dick, but why replace in if you arent going to do the work necessary to play the game correctly. Town needs to know everything going on, scum doesnt.

And as far as why someone might be scum reading you based on that fact check this gem out.

Newbie 1873

Ceejay replaces into the game and starts playing like he was caught up, then makes multiple posts about not being caught up. The way he replaced in put him on my radar and I went after him as scum. He ended up slipping away after a shite play from a townie, but we lynched him on day 3 for the town win.

[Formerfish]

SRing me because I am not caught up is a horrible reason to SR someone. Like, seriously?

Lets not get things twisted here. No one is scum reading you because you arent "caught up." People are scum reading you because you said that you were not going to catch up.

That's the same fucking thing, brah.

I'll do ISOs but I'm not going to read 400 posts when probably at least half of them are RVS anyways. I'm engaged now. I don't see people bringing up stuff from 5 pages ago anyway so it's not like I am missing a whole lot.

I still need to look at Stan1ey's progression.

No its not the same thing, because if you are doing isos then you are making an attempt to be at least somewhat cognizant of what has gone on so far. At first you made it sound like you were going to do nothing and start playing from when you replaced in like none of what happened before mattered outside of the horrible VCA you attempted off the first 5 votes of day 1.

isos=/=nothing.
nothing=scummy
isos=/=NAI

[Formerfish]

i meant iso=NAI

[Formerfish]

FF, you said ISOs are NAI. Is catching up AI?

It depends. Like the game I linked I SR Ceejay based on how he replaced into the game. I wouldnt say it would be a huge dent, but someone legit not catching up in a game this small would ping me. Making an attempt, or intimating that you are, is NAI to me because its optimal play from either side. And you don't even necessarily have to do it, you just would have to worry about slipping up later after saying you were caught up. If scum have day chat then they would have all the relevant info for you there.

[Formerfish]

Vote: Quick

I don't believe that your read on Iceman is real. You're saying that you disagree with him or he is bad therefore he is mafia, which is nonsense. Your entire case on him feels like shade and I don't like it one bit. Please catch up and provide thoughts on the game.

Are you getting a scum caught for reasons they dont believe they should have been caught kinda vibe coming off of Quick right now?

[Formerfish]

@quick could you link me some games in which you replaced in and didn't go back and read?

No.

No because you dont want to link us to those games?

Or no because those games dont exist?

[Formerfish]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

Let's be honest here.. Probably both yourself and I have more experience than nancy.

Ok, and is scum are newbies they still have a higher chance, imo, to kill the IC early because they are going to be perceived as their biggest threat.

And are you an Alt to someone I am unaware of?

[Formerfish]

it feels like it was phrased in a way that allows iceman to build upon it later to attack nancy w/o really needing to build a legitimate in game case on her

like instead of saying something about nancy feels off, feels like she is controlling town he goes with the proposition that cannot really be argued against

I don't think you're insane for thinking this.

But like, lmao, it doesn't feel very intuitive for mafia to come in the way he did and talk in detail about his idea that we should lynch the IC in lylo. He has to know that will look bad and if he's mafia he has to already be feeling like he wants me very dead with the way my thread presence is, so it's like, not a thing that he's ever actually going to cash in on and he would know that. I also kind of feel like it would take a bit more of an experienced player to try to use that as a way to break down trust, and kinda think he'd be intimidated by me given how he's a newb and newbscum generally suck up to the IC.

This kinda bugs me. IDK why people keep saying Ice is a newb when he's not.

How is not a newbie? He has finished 3 newbie games, is in his 4th and is playing in his first non-newbie game concurrently.

If he isn't a newbie then he is like a half step above being one. Not sure why you feel the need to try and bolster your SRs position there, maybe you think it gives your case on him more weight. Your case is bad by the way. It basically comes down to the fact that you dont personally think what you did was scummy. You fail to take into account that the way you think is not the way everyone thinks. Some people think in ways completely different from you. If I also found the way you came in scummy, as well as a few others in this game it appears, dont you think that maybe, just fucking maybe, that they have experience where scum does just what you did. And I know you responded that what Ceejay did, in the game I used as an example, is different from what you did/are doing, but that misses the point.

The point is that people can get scum read for the fucking flimsiest of reasons. When scum get caught by reasons they think they shouldnt be caught for they usually act the way you are right now.

[Formerfish]

OK, I'm caught up, AMA

/S

Seriously though I really hate being blackmailed to catch up in a game. Shit is just not right.

(1)

In other news, not sold on FF being Town. He got early TRs from people

(2)

and that seems to have stuck for not very good reasons I don't think. FF is a good player

(3)

, not ready to clear them just based on... Whatever people were TRing him for, because from what I saw, didn't see a whole lot of Town tells and def felt like I was strongly disagreeing with some of the stuff he's said so far.

(4)

1. Womp Womp. You didnt have to listen to us, you made a choice to. You could have stuck to your guns and probably would have backfired on you. Why did you decide to actually participate with the class?
2. Examples?
3. Ooooo... did you meta dive me? I love when I get doven into. What are you basing this statement off of?
4. More examples? Was it so hard to click that little Q button to focus on posts of mine you didnt like?

[Formerfish]

@formerfish your vote is still on me it appears, so talk to me, why am I scum still?

for visibility

Didnt we do this dance last game we were in as well. I dont really interact with scum reads like that. I kinda dont trust actions made by people directly after I make it known that I think they are scum. Especially when its players that I have played with a few times before. There is just to much ability for people to switch metas or play to someones expectations after that point. Right now my vote is on you because I think you have a higher chance of being scum at this very point in the game. All that is going to change that is someone else popping the top of their scum tree just a head above the rest to get seen.

Quick is doing a good job of getting there for me right now. inb4 omgus read.

ninja- Oka, seriously bro? You can clearly see that I am catching up to the current posts and just responded to a post like 7 before this one... have some fucking patience that shit will get done in the time it should.

[Formerfish]

Vote: Quick

I don't believe that your read on Iceman is real. You're saying that you disagree with him or he is bad therefore he is mafia, which is nonsense. Your entire case on him feels like shade and I don't like it one bit. Please catch up and provide thoughts on the game.

Are you getting a scum caught for reasons they dont believe they should have been caught kinda vibe coming off of Quick right now?

Uh-huh. It looks like you like that argument.

If the shoe fits.

[Formerfish]

yeah we did the dance because you scumread me and i didnt trust you, we both ended up town and not being lynched so it worked out in the end

And if that is what is destined to happen then youll be spared here as well. Its not like people are falling over themselves trying to follow me on my read, so your constant worry over my state of mind towards you might be able to take a rest for now.

[Formerfish]

I didn't see that Ice had only played 3-4 games, what I saw is that he was playing in games with 20 PRs. Those kinds of games are generally reserved for people who completely know what they are doing or completely have no idea what they are doing and I assumed the former.

You are talking about this post here,

well, even so we have plenty of time.

im used to 96 hour days(4 days RL) at the maximum and we have double that plus one day.

these daylengths feel abnormally long to me, but I know I have plenty of time

This was a HUGE adjustment for me at first. I was used to 48 hours.

The nights are the worst. 48 hours..... really? We do 24 or when all actions are received. Usually with 20 PRs sending in actions.

Right? Iceman is talking about games from his homesite. So yes, he may not be a mafia virgin before coming here, but how many of us are?

I do have a question though. Are you going to actually vote me or are you just gunna shade me?

I dont know if it can be considered shade if I am openly talking about not liking your posts, your opinions and have said your scum stock is on the rise, that I mentioned I liked where my vote was at, but if you kept acting like you were that it could move to you in the future...

That is all pretty blatantly me saying i think you may be scum.

and LQ is short for Lickety right?

[Formerfish]

OK, I'm caught up, AMA

/S

Seriously though I really hate being blackmailed to catch up in a game. Shit is just not right.

(1)

In other news, not sold on FF being Town. He got early TRs from people

(2)

and that seems to have stuck for not very good reasons I don't think. FF is a good player

(3)

, not ready to clear them just based on... Whatever people were TRing him for, because from what I saw, didn't see a whole lot of Town tells and def felt like I was strongly disagreeing with some of the stuff he's said so far.

(4)

1. Womp Womp. You didnt have to listen to us, you made a choice to. You could have stuck to your guns and probably would have backfired on you. Why did you decide to actually participate with the class?
2. Examples?
3. Ooooo... did you meta dive me? I love when I get doven into. What are you basing this statement off of?
4. More examples? Was it so hard to click that little Q button to focus on posts of mine you didnt like?

Quit trying to get under my skin, thanks. You already know I am pissed for being forced to do something I don't want to do. Is the attitude really necessary?

Is that for the womp womp? How about the dive into why you acquiesced so quickly? I think that that conversation might have merit, but I guess you want to get butthurt by a simple comment meant to signify that you should get over the fact that you had to read some posts in a game you signed up for based off reading posts and finding out who is scum. If you dont like the way I play I dunno what to tell you.

[Formerfish]

@formerfish your vote is still on me it appears, so talk to me, why am I scum still?

for visibility

Didnt we do this dance last game we were in as well. I dont really interact with scum reads like that. I kinda dont trust actions made by people directly after I make it known that I think they are scum. Especially when its players that I have played with a few times before. There is just to much ability for people to switch metas or play to someones expectations after that point. Right now my vote is on you because I think you have a higher chance of being scum at this very point in the game. All that is going to change that is someone else popping the top of their scum tree just a head above the rest to get seen.

Quick is doing a good job of getting there for me right now. inb4 omgus read.

ninja- Oka, seriously bro? You can clearly see that I am catching up to the current posts and just responded to a post like 7 before this one... have some fucking patience that shit will get done in the time it should.

Well, that was a quick catch up.

I dont even know what this is? You on tilt bro?

[Formerfish]

Here is your OMGUS, bud.

VOTE: FF

tbh I feel like you are just trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake. Plus that excuse about trying to catch up when you were pretty much already there was pretty bad.

Definitely on tilt. Wow. Even if I am doing what you think I am, is it not all in the game? I dont know your alignment right now, I only know my own. I didnt like something you did and I am going to treat you like a sore tooth, poking and jabbing at you to see what happens. This is the game you signed up for. This is the game of mafia. Your play here is shitty, and im not really worried about you.

And I wasn't saying that I wasnt answering him because I was catching up. I was literally catching up to where his post was in order of the posts i was reading and responding to. The post before the one i addressed Okas 524 was your 517. You are delusional bro.

[Formerfish]

yeah we did the dance because you scumread me and i didnt trust you, we both ended up town and not being lynched so it worked out in the end

And if that is what is destined to happen then youll be spared here as well. Its not like people are falling over themselves trying to follow me on my read, so your constant worry over my state of mind towards you might be able to take a rest for now.

its not about you reading me, its about me reading you

simply put, im growing suspicious of you and i want to interact w/ you to help further the development of my read on you

You want to interact with me to help suss out your reads and the requires me to ask you questions. Nah, pass. If you want to ask me a question ill answer, but im not going to reluctantly play 20 questions with you where im asking all the questions.

[Formerfish]

Anyway yeah Quick is probably town. This wasn't the ideal way for me to get the read by any means but I don't think he loses control like that if he's mafia here. Will make time to properly read and post stuff in a little.

Are you making that assessment based off anything more than a weak blow up and vote towards me? If he actually did catch up then he would have seen trinity express doubts about me and that she made her vote real on me. He would have seen Oka now expressing some doubt about me and could have tried to use those cracks to wiggle himself into a mislynch with me. He is like a whirlwind dashing from player to player calling the littlest things scummy, funny that this is all over us calling something he did scummy. Weird how different people make pushes for the reasons they do. Huh. How bout dat.

[Formerfish]

OK, I'm caught up, AMA

/S

Seriously though I really hate being blackmailed to catch up in a game. Shit is just not right.

(1)

In other news, not sold on FF being Town. He got early TRs from people

(2)

and that seems to have stuck for not very good reasons I don't think. FF is a good player

(3)

, not ready to clear them just based on... Whatever people were TRing him for, because from what I saw, didn't see a whole lot of Town tells and def felt like I was strongly disagreeing with some of the stuff he's said so far.

(4)

1. Womp Womp. You didnt have to listen to us, you made a choice to. You could have stuck to your guns and probably would have backfired on you. Why did you decide to actually participate with the class?
2. Examples?
3. Ooooo... did you meta dive me? I love when I get doven into. What are you basing this statement off of?
4. More examples? Was it so hard to click that little Q button to focus on posts of mine you didnt like?

Yeah this wasn't very appropriate FF.

Id like to know how exactly. He mentioned multiple times he wsnt going to catch up, and he caught some flack for that. Then the next thing we know he is doing isos and then is fully caught up. Like I said he could have not done that and still played the game, but instead he made a choice to listen to the group. I think that exploring how that happened is game relevant. And I dont like how he just skipped over the rest of the post which would help me understand where he was coming from if he could show some of the posts that helped him form his read on me.

[Formerfish]

I'll be around tomorrow night, I had my little girl today and snuggling on the couch took precedent over reading here.

[Formerfish]

Ok, Just got home from work, but I've pregamed and am 1 red bull deep right now. Going to figure out where I need to go from and start there. Is anyone actively on right now?

[Formerfish]

So @FF I think my issues with you come down to two basic things.

One is that I feel like your process has been pretty uneven. Early in the game you were spooling out a bunch of logic in how you were reading things, covering all the angles, and then you kind of just stopped doing that at a certain point? The first time you talked about your reads as a whole you barely had two sentences to say about them all, they didn't feel thought-through at all and that felt pretty wrong to me.

My process is kinda uneven. Thats why if you look at my game history right now its gonna be all newbie games. I had something personal happen about a year ago and I left the game as a result of my outside emotions not being able to take the emotions of the game. I have recently been feeling better and have been using the games in my attempt to become more active with other people even if it is just in post form. Most of my conversations lately have been with a 5yo, so its nice to be around equals for a bit. Coming back I really wanted to focus on honing my game play, because I felt like I had become to erratic. So in essence its like I went to the majors, got a case of the yips and now I am back down in the minor leagues figuring out who I am again.

And when I look at the way you've been pushing Oka and now Quick, your logic feels a little sloppy and it doesn't super feel like you're actually trying to get a read on their alignment? Feels like you're just shoving on them and trying to sell your read with fire rather than actually believing that they're mafia and you have a correct read. I also haven't really seen any reassessment or doubt from at all on your Oka read and that's sorta concerning. I agree with Quick's feeling that it seemed like you were trying to antagonize him there while he was tilted and I think that's kinda scummy of you.

I play a lot with my gut instinct as well. Thats where the unevenness comes in. I try to analyze things at first, then my gut starts in and then it seems like I am jumping from person to person. It happens when I play poker too, I just get antsy. That is one thing I am trying to mitigate as much as possible by recognizing the behavior and not engaging in it. And most of the shoving I'm doing right now is to see how they shove back. But thats for another post I suppose. And I wasn't trying to antagonize him per se, more I was trying to bring light to the fact that he did have a choice there.

And like, your entire scumread on Oka is based on meta and I think that's scummy of you as well. I haven't seen you engage with Oka's content outside of the narrow scope of a meta take you on had on his early game.

I never said I had an air tight case against Oka, just that I thought his behavior has been more scummy here than what I am used to. And my push on him was designed to see how he reacts. Same with Quick. Sometimes to get a good read on someone I need them to get pissed at me and do something stupid. Or ignore me and play the game.

The other is that I don't really know what you're doing to solve the game here. (This is kind of tied into the first thing about your process.) I don't think you've really gone over what your townreads are and why they are things and that's pretty concerning to me considering how active you've been. You have a PoE pool but I haven't seen any of the work that you've done in getting there or any of the work you've done to refine it or challenge it. Kinda just, yeah, would like to see more from you than the sort of agenda-y pushes that it feels to me like you've been doing for most of the game so far.

I'm not trying to solve the game here. I am trying to figure out who is most likely scum on day 1 and lynch there. I've tried the whole solve the game thing where I try to pick out the scum and then only look there. It usually ends with me tunneling on a townie or two, and if im super lucky some scum. Lately I find that if I look for 1 scum and worry about partners til after the flip.

[Formerfish]

Id like to know how exactly. He mentioned multiple times he wsnt going to catch up, and he caught some flack for that. Then the next thing we know he is doing isos and then is fully caught up. Like I said he could have not done that and still played the game, but instead he made a choice to listen to the group. I think that exploring how that happened is game relevant. And I dont like how he just skipped over the rest of the post which would help me understand where he was coming from if he could show some of the posts that helped him form his read on me.

That's fair. Am referring to the "Was it so hard to click that little Q button to focus on posts of mine you didnt like?" bit.

Yeah, that line had some zing to it, but I feel like the tone was just copied from his own posts where he let some sass through. I could have said it in a tamer way.

[Formerfish]

And like, your entire scumread on Oka is based on meta and I think that's scummy of you as well. I haven't seen you engage with Oka's content outside of the narrow scope of a meta take you on had on his early game.

and your scumread on FF seems to just be that he's not playing as aggressively as usual which is like, okay? Sure, I guess

So I'm being scumread for a meta case on Oka, but trinity gets an okay sure I guess for a meta read on me that she has even admitted isn't as strong as she thought it was because I was alive for day 1 before she night killed me night 1. It takes me til the end of day 1 and further into the game for me to ramp up. This is like the lower levels of Dragon Ball for me. Just wait for me to lvl up and hit super saiyan. Shits bitchin.

[Formerfish]

Am I breaking some protocols I’m not aware of LOL?

You know 2.8 caught hella heat for using protocols as an excuse last game, are you intentionally trying to imitate that here?

[Formerfish]

He's been town in all the games I've played. So I guess I'm missing what his scum play looks like.

Probably pretty similar to his town game.

Its a lot tighter. By that I mean that I dont play as loose. I watch everything I say and when it is said. I have a plan on who I can manipulate and how and I follow the plan until something else comes up, then I/we adjust and move on. My goal as scum is to live as long as possible by any means necessary. I lie, I mislead and I confuse. Being scum takes a lot out of me and the level of engagement varies depending on what is happening in the game vs. what I want to be happening in the game.

I wish I could give you a recent on, but the only recent scum game I have is where I replaced in and immediately counterclaimed a town pr.Newbie 1871

This is a scum game of mine from last year.
Mini Normal 1883

[Formerfish]

I don't see why a vote on her would've been bad at this point of time. So what if she's new and at that point of the game, she was his best lead? It seems like he was willing to confront her, but didn't want to risk antagonizing her or voting her? Idk, something seems off about him saying that. So slight town lean on Flicker, and slight scum lean on FormerFish as of these posts.

Im working on not throwing my vote around like Dirk Digler at a step class. I like to engage with people who I feel like I need to and my vote goes where I think it is best placed at that time. I dislike the vote then engage technique because I feel like it lacks the sting a vote needs to really change how a person would react. Its like announcing that the vote is a pressure vote and expecting the person to do anything about it.

[Formerfish]

@ff is your case still reliant on me being too aggro and that not fitting my meta?

Yeah, but that started to wain when you took a step back and started wandering around. This is what you did last game eventually as well. It just took a different way to get there. I'm going to have to iso you though to get a final read here.

[Formerfish]

I don't really have a read on Oka. I think something they are doing is Scummy and other things they are doing is incredibly Townie. Overall, I'd say Null Town (which is weaker than Town Lean for me).

What has he done that’s incredibly towny and what’s been scummy?

Some of the questions Oka has asked have seemed very Town motivated. But what they are pushing is a bit suspect.

Can you give examples?

This might sound Scummy or stupid to you, but I have to ask why you need examples.

Because I want to know your thought process and how you're drawing those conclusions

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?

Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

See this is the type of post that worries me. WM is asking a simple question, "Please give examples of times you felt the way you said you did when you read Okas posts"

"Umm... nah. You read his posts and ones that fit in your mind are the ones I am thinking of. Totally those posts."

[Formerfish]

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

[Formerfish]

mahhh, I suppose I overlooked Trinity. I feel like Nancy's 570 kind of represents how I feel. I want Trinity to do more, and she seems to be nooby to me. She isn't really pinging my scum radar, but I get what you mean by her being passive and not being proactive. @Trinity, can you convince me on who your biggest scum read is and why we should Lynch them? @Oka can you do the same?

I’m trying to catch up on today’s posts, so will post something more later, but for now FF is still my biggest scum read. He’s really only been leaning on Oka, and not putting in the effort on others that I would have expected.

What others should I be putting in work on and why do you expect me to be doing that?

[Formerfish]

OK, so I know this is going to make me look flaky, but looking for evidence has just made me confused! FF looks to me like apart from the interaction with Quick, he’s mainly spent time leaning on Oka and not really putting in the effort on everyone else. And I don’t think he’s tried hard to defend the votes on him. But I’ve had to admit that I do like that he’s after Oka as I think Oka could be scum, which would possibly, but not definitely, mean that FF isn’t.

I have FF and Oka as hard unaligned.

So since your vote is on me right now meaning you think I am scum then you must have a town read by proxy on Oka, right?

[Formerfish]

Spoiler: RE: Formerfish's 347

The votes moved from FF to Flicker and who FF and Flicker are voting for.

Not quite, VC1.02 has Oka, Ice and Trinity on me, but those are all RVS votes. VC1.03 still the same 3. 1.04 no change. 1.05 Oka and Ice change their vote and only trinity is left on.

Flicker wasnt even on the board til 1.04 when nancy and stan voted her. She finally voted in 1.05 for Oka, and I could see a possibility for a bus vote from her on her partner here. Especially if she thought it could put some distance between the two of them.

FF might have gotten caught early and then talked his way out of things.

Nothing to get caught from when the votes are all hellos of sorts. I guess I am a likeable guy and have played a lot of newbie games recently so I am a player that they are going to remember and poke during rvs.

That said, I have known him to be lynchbait

O rly? have we played together? Where have you seen me as lynchbait?

, but a really good player

totally correct here

, so I have a Null read on that dynamic of the game, however, because both Flicker and FF are voting the same person who seems to have produced a wagon out of nowhere seems pretty suspect to me.

Nah dont sweat it. Heres what I see. Either my read on Flicker is wrong, and she is pushing a legit scum read in Oka, which I also happen to share, or she is scum with him and she is trying to distance herself with a fake blow up between the two and then a bus vote. Like I said, I came to a scum read on Oka dependent on my own variables. If flicker is helping achieve the goals I want to, it doesnt matter what her alignment is yet.

I like how FF took the time to correct Quick's VCA here, both that he did it at all (I know he's got a little to gain, but not as much compared to me, a person he is scum reading) and the details he gave (they seem right). I also kind of like the mindset of why he's voting with me - it's not something I would do (vote with a scum read), but I understand his perspective.

Also, I feel like Formerfish and Quick aren't scum together, based on 380.

Am curious why you think this as well.

Briefly, since you've also come around to agreeing they're not scum - it felt like a weird thing for a scum partner to bring to the main thread. I feel like, if they were partners, FF would be disagreeing in their PT, like "Hey dude, could you at least read the thread a little? You're making yourself look bad lol" or something. Also, there's something about the way he phrased it - "can't begin to understand the game state as is" - that feels genuine and towny.

@flicker do you think one of quick/ff is scum?

At the point in the thread where you asked this, no, not really. If I had to pick one, I would have said Quick. Now... I don't know. I feel like Quick's emotional reactions could have been done by town or scum, and Formerfish could be responding like he is as town or scum, too. I almost want to say that Quick's reactions are

slightly

town, and Formerfish's poking (especially in 531)

might

be smug scum? But smugness isn't an exclusively scum trait, and it runs counter to my town read on FF, so... I don't know. ¯\_(:/)_/¯

This is actually pretty good analysis of my play style. Its mean to infuriate people a little, but it can be a volatile one as well. I like the thought that went into reading me.

[...] Am I breaking some protocols I’m not aware of LOL?

@Formerfish

, didn't you say you had an issue with players who were too focused on rules and procedures and stuff? What do you think about this, and Trinity in general?

I dont love it, as I mentioned I think in a post a made myself. They were scum together and it was one of the things that tipped us to her partner being scum in that game. Lynched day 1, and then the remaining town lynched her day 2 for the win.

[Formerfish]

This is actually pretty good analysis of my play style. Its mean to infuriate people a little, but it can be a volatile one as well. I like the thought that went into reading me.

I buried my comment by accident in the quote. The bold is mine.

[Formerfish]

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I completely fail to see what you are trying to point out here.

Seriously man? Like 10 posts before WM asked you to show work on your read and you told him to iso the guy and think for himself. Then you ask someone else to show the reasons they have come up with a read.

Why should they if you refuse to show your work?

Its hypocritical.

[Formerfish]

@flicker i think formerfish has a decent chance at being scum

but then again i have better scumreads than formerfish being scum so actually i think rn the highest chance is both ff and quick being town

I dont know if this is more a hedge or a straight flip flop. Why are you scum reading me again?

[Formerfish]

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

How do you expect him to explain his scum read on Oka? Hes going to have to show the posts that made him feel icky inside and then explain them to you to see if you feel icky as well. If we all just automatically felt the same way about posts then this game would be a lot easier than it is. Asking why someone is scum inherently is asking the other person to give examples.

I am going off the assumption that you want to make sure I am not full of shit in what I am saying. I don't need to provide examples for that if you can figure it out yourself if what I am saying has merit or not.

Like listen man. I'm not going to tell you how to play, you do you. Heres the thing though, when I see anti-town play, I say something. WM asked you a legit question in response to something you said. Your response to his question was to go reread himself with your vague statement in mind and to see what post pinged him and then you would let him know if those were the right ones?

And you claim that that is the simple way of doing it. Simple to me would be you quoting a few posts where Oka exemplified the behaviors you spoke to him exhibiting as evidence to the group to further your own read.

[Formerfish]

@formerfish what are your reads on trinity/iceman/eragon?

Scum lean, town lean, null town.

Something in her post just seem desperate to me. I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me. The push on me is a bad one since she is using meta for the most part and the meta isnt accurate.

I like the way Iceman plays, it reminds me a lot of myself as a younger town player. He says whats on his mind and lays in the bed he makes when he has to answer for something. I also see a progression in him from the games weve played. This is where I see his town game now from the last 2, I dont see him as scum here.

Eragon, a lot of what he posts seems perfunctory. Other things show good signs. Wouldnt lynch here today.

[Formerfish]

FF seems to be doing an awful lot of self-meta recently which is kinda questionable after him being a main wagon.

Are you unaware of your meta and how you approach both sides of play?

Sarge, how much to you is too much posting or too little posting?

you seemed somewhat convinced.

why aren't you voting flicker up?

You said you had the risk of making a random vote and getting the scrutinized for that versus getting scrutinized for not voting at all which makes me think that getting scrutinized is at the forefront of your mind.

trinity is town because i don't see a new player interact that much and be scum

nancy ur town because i don't see you interacting that much to be scum

stanley feels like a rational town player

---

i thought trinity might have been scum with the rvs vote thing she did on FF but i don't think so anymore, mainly because i think her not understanding it was l2 seems genuine

flicker seems a bit defensive but nothing concrete yet

former is town because reasons

---
unvoted because we are out of rvs

and ill read that eragon post later

Two examples of each that I found in like 2 min.

Holy shit this is like pulling teeth with you. Which ones are examples of ones you liked and which are the ones you didnt. Why to both?

Ninja- its anti town to me because you are withholding information that could lead to a righteous lynch. I have to wonder why you wouldnt want to share info with other people, which leads me to think certain things about you and the other aspects of your play.

The constant defensiveness and your tone add to the whole ensemble. I might be misreading your posts though and you dont have a tone, dont know you well enough to figure between the two right now.

Ninja 2- Wow man. Just wow. If Oka needs more from me he can ask. If I refuse then that would be hypocritical of me. Hell he could look at my blubs and say that it makes sense to him, or he could ask me a question and I would be able to explain it by being specific. Step off my dick bro.

[Formerfish]

You understand how WM asking you to explain your read on someone in specific is different than Oka asking me for a current read on 3 people right? Like you cant be that disingenuous.

[Formerfish]

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

[Formerfish]

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

Im pretty sure there is nothing I can do with you right now that you wouldnt scum read. But if you want to act like what you are saying is right then go for it. I see how you twice failed to acknowledge that the thing you are "getting me" for in that post isnt even a thing. Oka asking me for reads and me not giving specific posts to back up each one is not the same an WM asking you to explain a specific read you had. But keep pushing your narrative, I get it. Rolling scum in a game you replace into sucks, but this is nothing personal, if it werent you another body would be in that scumseat.

[Formerfish]

Because Oka hasnt asked for it yet. Its not that you didnt do it, its that you wouldnt do it when someone asked. If Oka needs more info from me on hose reads to satisfy his curiosity then he can ask. If I refuse then itd be like you and scummy. However that situation hasnt taken place yet so...

Also legit question. When you find out im town, where do you go from there?

Ninja- naw bro, using confbias to add to my scum read of you is not the same.

[Formerfish]

Because Oka hasnt asked for it yet. Its not that you didnt do it, its that you wouldnt do it when someone asked. If Oka needs more info from me on hose reads to satisfy his curiosity then he can ask. If I refuse then itd be like you and scummy. However that situation hasnt taken place yet so...

Also legit question. When you find out im town, where do you go from there?

Ninja- naw bro, using confbias to add to my scum read of you is not the same.

You are the one who was pushing me for not giving examples. So what makes you think who asked you what would be satisfied without examples? On the one hand, you are arguing that I am Scummy for not providing examples, which shows that you agree examples are necessary, otherwise there is no reason to bring it up in the first place. On the other hand, you are not providing examples yourself and basically representing that an overview of play is how you personally operate. So then why am I Scummy for operating in the same way that you are? You are looking for EXCUSES to SR me.

Bro. Stop acting like what happened is the same. Its not. Your insistence here is starting to tell a story thats not going to be able to be untold.

You said a thing about someone. Someone else asked you to expand on it. You declined.
Someone asked me a question. I answered it. They have yet to say if that answer was satisfactory to them or not. Once they do then the conversation Oka and I are having will go from there.

See the difference?

And I really would love to not see scum in your play so that I can get away from you for a bit, but unfortunately the way you

are

playing is scummy to me and I am going to push that here.

[Formerfish]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

[Formerfish]

@nancy opinion on defensive tells?

Is this a legit question? Are you asking nancy the player or nancy the IC?

[Formerfish]

as for FF im pretty sure he is town because interactions and the fact that he left my wagon for a pretty low potential wagon but I have still have a running theory on reading him that is going to need more time to resolve itself

i guess i dont really make sense, at that time i was thinking ff had a good chance of being scum, then i thought to myself there are more scummy people ahead of him so meh probably not

You had mentioned something that either was playing out or could play out that would have helped you figure out my alignment. Care to talk about that more?

[Formerfish]

My process is kinda uneven. Thats why if you look at my game history right now its gonna be all newbie games. I had something personal happen about a year ago and I left the game as a result of my outside emotions not being able to take the emotions of the game. I have recently been feeling better and have been using the games in my attempt to become more active with other people even if it is just in post form. Most of my conversations lately have been with a 5yo, so its nice to be around equals for a bit. Coming back I really wanted to focus on honing my game play, because I felt like I had become to erratic. So in essence its like I went to the majors, got a case of the yips and now I am back down in the minor leagues figuring out who I am again.

Less than three.

Less than three?

Just so you're aware, I generally am not going to get much from you talking to me about my scumread on you, or you trying to address things directly to me that I've said I have concerns about. Unless you think I'm like clearly misunderstanding you and something that I've said needs to be clarified, the way that I'll be able to reassess on you here and get a townread on you if you're town is by you just doing your thing and being as transparent about it as possible.

So you dont want me to interact with you directly to help you read me, you want to do it more passively as an observer with how I interact with everyone else?

But um, I think I said in there that I struggle to understand your reads and that's something that you can pretty easily address by, well, talking about them.

I am more than willing to discuss anything in specific that you would like to. Ask me a question and lets see where we end up.

So I'm being scumread for a meta case on Oka, but trinity gets an okay sure I guess for a meta read on me that she has even admitted isn't as strong as she thought it was because I was alive for day 1 before she night killed me night 1.

It's a small thing that I dislike, you're not being scumread simply because you have a meta read. That would be silly. And I think you misunderstood the post? I was specifically saying that as a thing that I didn't like about her. It wasn't a "sure, that's fine", it was a "ugh, do you have to", and the span of that thought was that her read was shallow. Did you not get that? Because I felt like I expressed that pretty clearly and I can't tell if you're just looking for a gripe there or not.

I did not get that you were finding fault in that with her. Thats why I pointed out what I thought was an inaccuracy in your play. That makes more sense.

[Formerfish]

mahhh, I suppose I overlooked Trinity. I feel like Nancy's 570 kind of represents how I feel. I want Trinity to do more, and she seems to be nooby to me. She isn't really pinging my scum radar, but I get what you mean by her being passive and not being proactive. @Trinity, can you convince me on who your biggest scum read is and why we should Lynch them? @Oka can you do the same?

I’m trying to catch up on today’s posts, so will post something more later, but for now FF is still my biggest scum read. He’s really only been leaning on Oka, and not putting in the effort on others that I would have expected.

What others should I be putting in work on and why do you expect me to be doing that?

This post of mine was superseded once I’d iso’d You and I am now thinking you’re town.

That doesnt change my question. At the point in time you made this post you felt like I should be putting in effort on certain people. Who and why?

[Formerfish]

So you know I’m playing a completely different game to the last one right? I think I’m more honest and open, as I don’t have to lie and pretend to be town. And although I’m still nervous about looking like an idiot, I’m not worried about making mistakes as I have nothing to hide.

Do I? You have 1 game in and it was as scum and you got lynched day 2 after your partner got lynched day 1. I dont think that you have enough chops yet to tell me that this is definitely your town game because its not like you have a scum game down yet. Your first game as scum was kind of a disaster. Not your fault just was. So why would you play here as scum the same way you did there. This could be your town game, or this could be your scum game version 2.0 after a first game blow out.

[Formerfish]

Well, I come out of page 30 feeling pretty tired of FF and Quick going at each other, sort of moving towards them both being town but don't have any super strongly feelings about it. The way Quick just transitioned from that into talking about his reads felt genuine, I think.

@FF @Quick if you two could try to minimize interactions with each other that would be pretty helpful. I really don't want this game to get bogged down by conflict between you two, especially not after I'm dead and not around to put a stop to it.

I don't know if we need to be sent to separate corners, I can keep it civil. Im not ever not going to push a scum read because of AtE, ill just do it with more of a clinical vibe.

[Formerfish]

Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf type territory

I've never liked this line of thinking. If something is scummy its scummy. If someone is doing something scummy then they need to be voted so they dont do it again. I kinda feel like when people doing something too scummy to be scum that they are setting us up for a future time where they as scum do just that. I dont know if someone needs to be town for my theory to make sense, Its more of a thought exercise at this point.

[Formerfish]

Kinda want to move my vote onto WhyMafia

Where did this come from? You mentioned him like twice and I didnt get the vibe you were sorting him into the scum bin with either mention.

The fact that you vote flicker in the post after has me a little miffed with your conversation towards Oka about slowing down. Its like you just did the thing you told him not to.

[Formerfish]

I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me.

I don't really get this. My reads aren't necessarily better than anyone else's.

I guess that was more for me, since i tr you, I would hope that our reads would mesh eventually. They dont need to, but it helps.

[Formerfish]

@nancy opinion on defensive tells?

Is this a legit question? Are you asking nancy the player or nancy the IC?

Yes and this is directed towards nancy the player.

as for FF im pretty sure he is town because interactions and the fact that he left my wagon for a pretty low potential wagon but I have still have a running theory on reading him that is going to need more time to resolve itself

i guess i dont really make sense, at that time i was thinking ff had a good chance of being scum, then i thought to myself there are more scummy people ahead of him so meh probably not

You had mentioned something that either was playing out or could play out that would have helped you figure out my alignment. Care to talk about that more?

It is still a work in progress.

Why do you care about her opinion as a player on defensive tells?

And ok, id ask more questions but i feel like if there was part you could talk about now without compromising the test that you would have said what you could.

[Formerfish]

I mean, I already did this in 562. Read the last paragraph again?

I must have missed that in the paragraph you mentioned. Right now im still in info gathering mode. Soon ill be able to dive into some isos and come up with more fleshed out reads. Thats another reason why my play might seem erratic in nature. I kinda bounce from place to place seeing what I can find before moving on to the next. Just give me time to get there and youll see it.

[Formerfish]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

Its going to be hard for me to read trinity this game. She only has 1 in and it was a scum game. I just dont remember her speaking like this last game and in the back of my mind im thinking she is going overboard acting townie because she thinks its going to hide her when it just makes her stick out.

[Formerfish]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

Its going to be hard for me to read trinity this game. She only has 1 in and it was a scum game. I just dont remember her speaking like this last game and in the back of my mind im thinking she is going overboard acting townie because she thinks its going to hide her when it just makes her stick out.

What did it for me with the townread was how honest/genuine she felt when responding to concerns on her.

I got the opposite out of that. Like when she blew up at Oak with his question when he took words directly from her post and she didnt put that together when what she had posted about him. Like when you said Less than three I looked throughout my post to try and figure out what you were referring to. When Oka said what he did I would have gone back through my post to see what he was talking about, not jump down his throat.

[Formerfish]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

Its going to be hard for me to read trinity this game. She only has 1 in and it was a scum game. I just dont remember her speaking like this last game and in the back of my mind im thinking she is going overboard acting townie because she thinks its going to hide her when it just makes her stick out.

You have a point. She wasn't as confident or flippant about things. I don't know though cause it kind of makes me want to say trinity is town.

Im saying that we cant say this is her town game because this isnt her scum game. Right now her scum game is anything because of how her first game went. She isnt going to be doing the same thing that got her killed day 2. It just feels like it went to far in the direction of trying to look town.

Ninja Oka- Thats what I am trying to say, we cant say that just because this is different that it is her town game.

[Formerfish]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

FF, this was just me trying to be funny. I guess it failed.

My brother scum reads me in games when my attempts at humor come off stale. Says it comes across as try hard.

[Formerfish]

If I was scum, I don’t know why I would spend time interacting with Nancy, I’d be avoiding her like the plague, as I’m not experienced enough to outsmart her.

Not if you saw a way to exploit her here. You as a newbie with 1 game under your belt, and as scum no less, would be just the person to cozy up to the IC here. You laugh at her jokes, gush at her posting and say a few things that parrot some of what she's been saying. You're not doing it because you can outsmart her, you're doing it because you need her to look out for you and take you under her wing so to say. It's a keep your friends close and enemies closer situation.

[Formerfish]

Luckily though, we have enough experienced and vocal players this game to counterract and the possibility of nancy!scum but I'm just saying be cautious.

nancy shouldn't be the lynch today however, I'm not saying she is scum, I'm saying that if you look at her meta, marking her conf town is just simply dangerous, she can play scum extremely well

response to nancy post inc

Does anyone remember off hand how Oka reacted to Iceman talking about lynching ICs? I'm on my phone and at the park so searching is limited. Just curious to see what he said then.

[Formerfish]

oh hi FF, you are probably going to hate my last dozen posts

have fun reading them!

Why do you think that?

[Formerfish]

yeah OkaPoka was fucking pissed that someone would dare suggest policylynching people.

but oh how the turn tables.

If that's true and how you reacted you see why I would have an issue with you now suggesting the course of action you were so venomously opposed to when someone else made it right?

Like you have to know that flip flopping that way is going to be read poorly.

[Formerfish]

I'm not suggesting a nancy policy lynch

I'm suggesting a reconsideration of townreading nancy.

Neither was Iceman. He said if you are on day 3 and the IC is still around they deserve a hard look.

You literally just said you are trying to sow seeds of doubt in our minds as to what alignment Nancy is, and that if she doesn't die tonight to look at her tomorrow on d2.

[Formerfish]

No? Iceman was saying that we should policy lynch the IC the day before lylo.

No? Iceman was saying that we should policy lynch the IC the day before lylo.

Wrong that's what several people misconstrued it into.

I reiterated my point several times in that its very easy for new players to completely trust the IC by mistake. The IC can easily manipulate the new players and sometimes do it on accident.

My statement was that if the IC is still around by day 3 there should be some extra scrutiny placed on them. More so then a non-ic.

Odd how I was able to understand what he said when he said it enough to be able to argue for him there. And then to be able to paraphrase it now to show you how your view point on what he did was incorrect. That ish is crazy bro, its like reading ability and retention are a thing you need to have in this game.

[Formerfish]

His answer and reasoning was fleshed out way more than that, and you know that because I made a snarky comment to you about jumping the gun on your scum read because you misunderstood something Iceman said. You replied that you could have done it differently, but oh well. So now youre misremembering again.

ninja- what are you not getting about this? That is the exact reason given by Iceman to look at the IC late game. The IC is usually going to be a stronger player because of what the role itself is. There is a reason that there are requirements for that position. Im not saying that they are crazy hard to fulfill, just that they are there and as a result new players are going to hold them in a different light. So you guys are saying the same thing with minor changes to nonsupport bearing beams to the overall argument.

[Formerfish]

VOTE: Oka

I am very much back here. This

re

misrepping of Iceman, after you were set straight, is just ugly to watch and its like you want to draw attention away from yourself just 1v1ing the IC in a newbie game.

[Formerfish]

Why am I being prodded short of 48 hrs?

[Formerfish]

And as we approach the deadline, the chances of a successful counterwagon to my own are going to be diminishing pretty rapidly.

We are going to need a spike in scumhunting, hoping I can get Formerfish's reaction to my post on Iceman even if he blows up on me. And I'm also hoping I can get trinity to get me some actual examples of my responses to questions.

I think that there is nothing to gain from going after Ice because of the IC thing. I get what he is saying and if you are choosing not to then thats on you. Iceman is not scum here.

[Formerfish]

I'm going to unvote so that I don't have to watch thread carefully to make sure people don't get overexcited and hammer him when have ~5 days until deadline.

Unvote

I'll be honest this is super sus to me.

Oka has been all over the place and not in a good way. He's swinging around and grasping at straws. He's being super defensive and irrational. HE IS SCUM. Why on earth would you jump off a wagon that's at L-2? That makes zero sense. Even if he was at L-1 you shouldn't be jumping off. If someone LOLhammers then we got a another scum out of it. Either way we get a scum.

I'm seriously starting to wonder about the town read on you.

My town read is 100% based on the amount of posting, the detail to the posts, and the searching for scum. But, as I look back at it there seems to be more playing to each person. Like the way you've won Trinity over.... it just seems odd.

I think that this is a pretty decent take from Iceman. I like the thought process behind it.

[Formerfish]

I'm also starting to wonder about FF. What's with the coasting. Where's your super strong Scum reads. Where's your stands being taken? You jumped off a wagon to hit Quick be never went anywhere after that?

I dislike the term coasting. I prefer to be a leaf in the stream of time. Seriously though, I just took a day away from the game to take care of real life stuff and didnt realize it was a shorter prod timer than im used to.

And I have scum reads which I have been pushing. No one seems to really wanna follow me when I am on that person though. I can make all the arguments I want, but if no one is listening then its moot. And my stands have been made and then argued over by multiple people. Again, you can lead a horse to water but cant make him drink. Im not going to sit here and beat you guys over the head with the same arguments over and over.

[Formerfish]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

Ugh. I hate this post. The idea put forth in this post is so very very bad. You don't lynch people because of their title, you lynch them because they are Scum, period.

Holy shit. I think I am really about to lose my mind here.

I think that anyone pushing Iceman as scum for having that idea is scum. I think that the people who keep bringing it up after its been kicked to death, buried and dug up for some more kicking, are scum.

This is a nonissue that they are trying to make into some bigger fucking deal. Its sad and pathetic because it has been talked to death.

Iceman is not scum for this or anything else. Dude is town.

[Formerfish]

Why am I being prodded short of 48 hrs?

Subject: Newbie Game Queue (Players and Mods)

Deadlines have been updated to 10 days for Day 1, and 7 days for all further Day phases. Prodding now occurs after 30 hours of inactivity. (7/2/2018)

Yeah, I checked after I posted that. Im used to 48 hr timers. ::shrug::

[Formerfish]

This is my order from town to mafia:

Nancy
IceMan
OkaPoka
WhyMafia
Flicker
Formerfish
Quick
Eragon

I could lynch any of the last three.

So, you went from scum reading me, to not, and then say that I am included in a pool of 3 to be lynched...

[Formerfish]

@Trinity I dunno what to say honestly, it's not really good enough to just list names in an order, you have to be able to talk about why those names are ordered the way they are. Like, you were able to talk about FF and Oka at least to some degree, that fact that you're completely unable to articulate any form of a scumread on anyone else at this point is super super worrying. You've also got FF in your lynch pool which is ???, you have stated a townread on FF, please explain how that makes sense.

I was planning on voting Oka this morning when I woke up but after Trinity's recent posting I'm kinda torn. In the world where Trinity is mafia then her flip would clear Oka and that's not a small thing. In the world where she's town then I want to lynch Oka pretty much always but my townread on her isn't as strong as it was and if I think there's a realistic chance of Trinity being mafia then I'm kind of inclined to give that read more time to develop and just put Trinity/Oka aside until tomorrow.

I think I want to lynch Quick the most at this point. There's just so much scum motivation in the way that he's been treating the Oka wagon and I've been mostly turning a blind eye to it but I don't think I can anymore. He's also just not doing anything this game and generally speaking that's never a bad type of slot to lynch on day 1.

@Everyone please share with the class who you would be willing to lynch today.

I think my lynch preference for today is Quick->Eragon->FF.

Lol I thought you were just asking for a list I will try and do more.

[Formerfish]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

maybe he is town but im not getting many scumreads rn and i feel like his post on nancy is fake and the comment on IC's sounds like he wants to keep his lynch options open

When have you ever had strong scum reads on day 1, thats not really your style man? See, its posts like this that do worry me about you. Of course hes keeping his options open, its day 1, we all have our options open. I would not lynch like 3 people right now, the rest are all lynchable to some degree. This is overly aggressive play from you at this point in the game, and its propelling you further up my list of to die.

Have we ever played together in which I was here day 1?

I'm honestly not sure.

[Formerfish]

And his "scumread" on FF consists of "lol you're scum", "you're scummy", "you're wrong", "you're bad", "you're a liar" and various repetitions of the same.

Thank you for seeing this. I felt like I was getting gaslit here and was starting to lose it a little.

[Formerfish]

And as we approach the deadline, the chances of a successful counterwagon to my own are going to be diminishing pretty rapidly.

We are going to need a spike in scumhunting, hoping I can get Formerfish's reaction to my post on Iceman even if he blows up on me. And I'm also hoping I can get trinity to get me some actual examples of my responses to questions.

I think that there is nothing to gain from going after Ice because of the IC thing. I get what he is saying and if you are choosing not to then thats on you. Iceman is not scum here.

But you are SRing Oka for that, so let's talk about it???

Ok, what would you like to talk about? I have a strong enough town read on Ice to think that someone pushing him off some bullshit is scummy. Questions?

[Formerfish]

And as we approach the deadline, the chances of a successful counterwagon to my own are going to be diminishing pretty rapidly.

We are going to need a spike in scumhunting, hoping I can get Formerfish's reaction to my post on Iceman even if he blows up on me. And I'm also hoping I can get trinity to get me some actual examples of my responses to questions.

I think that there is nothing to gain from going after Ice because of the IC thing. I get what he is saying and if you are choosing not to then thats on you. Iceman is not scum here.

But how exactly am I misrepping Iceman?
check my 1081, I think its clear that Iceman has redefined his policy multiple times. I don't feel like I've done a poor job in repeating what
Iceman has said.

You might get what he is saying or you might be reading between the lines to extract some subtle implied information, but nonetheless I feel like I have not misrepped Iceman, it's pretty blatant with some of the posts Iceman has made in what he is saying.

Do you think that Iceman is advocating for a baseless policy lynch on the IC if they are alive on day 3?

[Formerfish]

Spoiler: @Quick

FF, you said ISOs are NAI. Is catching up AI?

It depends. Like the game I linked I SR Ceejay based on how he replaced into the game. I wouldnt say it would be a huge dent, but someone legit not catching up in a game this small would ping me. Making an attempt, or intimating that you are, is NAI to me because its optimal play from either side. And you don't even necessarily have to do it, you just would have to worry about slipping up later after saying you were caught up. If scum have day chat then they would have all the relevant info for you there.

You know, after thinking about it, this seems like a completely different kind of read that you are describing besides simply getting caught up. You are describing how Ceejay was inconsistent in a Scummy way, and I'd wager that this kind of thing actually has little to do with whether he was caught up or not. It's a Scummy contradiction that could happen whether he was getting caught up or not.. It's not specific to getting caught up necessarily.

This quote contains no reasoning about why FF is mafia. You asked him a theory question, and he answered.

Vote: Quick

I don't believe that your read on Iceman is real. You're saying that you disagree with him or he is bad therefore he is mafia, which is nonsense. Your entire case on him feels like shade and I don't like it one bit. Please catch up and provide thoughts on the game.

Are you getting a scum caught for reasons they dont believe they should have been caught kinda vibe coming off of Quick right now?

Uh-huh. It looks like you like that argument.

This is shade/doubtcasting, by you, which is scummy. I happen to think that the post you quoted is scummy, but again, no reasoning from you why FF is mafia in this quote.

it feels like it was phrased in a way that allows iceman to build upon it later to attack nancy w/o really needing to build a legitimate in game case on her

like instead of saying something about nancy feels off, feels like she is controlling town he goes with the proposition that cannot really be argued against

I don't think you're insane for thinking this.

But like, lmao, it doesn't feel very intuitive for mafia to come in the way he did and talk in detail about his idea that we should lynch the IC in lylo. He has to know that will look bad and if he's mafia he has to already be feeling like he wants me very dead with the way my thread presence is, so it's like, not a thing that he's ever actually going to cash in on and he would know that. I also kind of feel like it would take a bit more of an experienced player to try to use that as a way to break down trust, and kinda think he'd be intimidated by me given how he's a newb and newbscum generally suck up to the IC.

This kinda bugs me. IDK why people keep saying Ice is a newb when he's not.

How is not a newbie? He has finished 3 newbie games, is in his 4th and is playing in his first non-newbie game concurrently.

If he isn't a newbie then he is like a half step above being one. Not sure why you feel the need to try and bolster your SRs position there, maybe you think it gives your case on him more weight. Your case is bad by the way. It basically comes down to the fact that you dont personally think what you did was scummy. You fail to take into account that the way you think is not the way everyone thinks. Some people think in ways completely different from you. If I also found the way you came in scummy, as well as a few others in this game it appears, dont you think that maybe, just fucking maybe, that they have experience where scum does just what you did. And I know you responded that what Ceejay did, in the game I used as an example, is different from what you did/are doing, but that misses the point.

The point is that people can get scum read for the fucking flimsiest of reasons. When scum get caught by reasons they think they shouldnt be caught for they usually act the way you are right now.

Which is how?

I didn't see that Ice had only played 3-4 games, what I saw is that he was playing in games with 20 PRs. Those kinds of games are generally reserved for people who completely know what they are doing or completely have no idea what they are doing and I assumed the former.

It's nice that you know people think in different ways, but that's not why I am SRing Ice.

They (in general, which is how you are phrasing this) could have had the experience where a Scum person didn't catch up, but that wasn't my impression of Ice's reason for voting me. It seemed theory based. As far as nanacy's vote is concerned, I've already addressed that.

I do have a question though. Are you going to actually vote me or are you just gunna shade me?

No reasoning from you. This isn't a read. The way you're taunting him is gross.

Here is your OMGUS, bud.

VOTE: FF

tbh I feel like you are just trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake. Plus that excuse about trying to catch up when you were pretty much already there was pretty bad.

Okay. Explain how the second thing is scummy?

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I completely fail to see what you are trying to point out here.

Seriously man? Like 10 posts before WM asked you to show work on your read and you told him to iso the guy and think for himself. Then you ask someone else to show the reasons they have come up with a read.

Why should they if you refuse to show your work?

Its hypocritical.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

Where did he say that to WM? I can't find it. I also side with FF on this one and think you were misunderstanding.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

How do you expect him to explain his scum read on Oka? Hes going to have to show the posts that made him feel icky inside and then explain them to you to see if you feel icky as well. If we all just automatically felt the same way about posts then this game would be a lot easier than it is. Asking why someone is scum inherently is asking the other person to give examples.

I am going off the assumption that you want to make sure I am not full of shit in what I am saying. I don't need to provide examples for that if you can figure it out yourself if what I am saying has merit or not.

Like listen man. I'm not going to tell you how to play, you do you. Heres the thing though, when I see anti-town play, I say something. WM asked you a legit question in response to something you said. Your response to his question was to go reread himself with your vague statement in mind and to see what post pinged him and then you would let him know if those were the right ones?

And you claim that that is the simple way of doing it. Simple to me would be you quoting a few posts where Oka exemplified the behaviors you spoke to him exhibiting as evidence to the group to further your own read.

How is that Anti-Town? Just because YOU don't play that way doesn't mean it's Anti-Town. As far as "how is he supposed to explain?" You don't really need to give examples to do that - in fact, he could pretty much just do exactly what I did, which is give a rundown of how things have gone in general. Maybe it's that I am more big picture than you are. Having an overall understanding is better than specifics anyways.

So, you were being anti-town, FF called you on that, and this makes him mafia because _______.

@formerfish what are your reads on trinity/iceman/eragon?

Scum lean, town lean, null town.

Something in her post just seem desperate to me. I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me. The push on me is a bad one since she is using meta for the most part and the meta isnt accurate.

I like the way Iceman plays, it reminds me a lot of myself as a younger town player. He says whats on his mind and lays in the bed he makes when he has to answer for something. I also see a progression in him from the games weve played. This is where I see his town game now from the last 2, I dont see him as scum here.

Eragon, a lot of what he posts seems perfunctory. Other things show good signs. Wouldnt lynch here today.

Holy Fuck, you're so full of shit!

When asked about how you are reading someone you go straight to overall play, not examples. This is a pretty blatant contradiction of play, bud.

This is a legalistic interpretation of FF's earlier statements and basically equivalent a strawman argument. Not scummy, and even if he were contradicting himself, you haven't shown why that's scummy.

Two examples of each that I found in like 2 min.

Holy shit this is like pulling teeth with you. Which ones are examples of ones you liked and which are the ones you didnt. Why to both?

It's like you are not even paying attention at this point. WhyMafia asked why I was reading Oka the way I was. I said I felt some of their questions seemed really Town motivated but that I thought some of their pushes were suspect. Pretty sure you can figure out the rest. Pretty sure you are just being this difficult because Oka is who you want to lynch, which is incredibly Scummy if correct.

The constant defensiveness and your tone add to the whole ensemble. I might be misreading your posts though and you dont have a tone, dont know you well enough to figure between the two right now.

Since when is defensiveness a Scum tell? It's not, you're just trying to push this narrative because I disagree with you.

I'm assuming the last sentence is the only part of this that you mean to be relevant? I don't think it's insane that FF would think to read into your defensiveness. I think you're trying to portray FF as an insane person and I think it's stupid.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

So, FF thinks something is scummy that you don't think is scummy and this makes him mafia because _______.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

Im pretty sure there is nothing I can do with you right now that you wouldnt scum read. But if you want to act like what you are saying is right then go for it. I see how you twice failed to acknowledge that the thing you are "getting me" for in that post isnt even a thing. Oka asking me for reads and me not giving specific posts to back up each one is not the same an WM asking you to explain a specific read you had. But keep pushing your narrative, I get it. Rolling scum in a game you replace into sucks, but this is nothing personal, if it werent you another body would be in that scumseat.

LOL, you are such Scum.

How is that not a contradiction?

There are reasons why this post from FF is scummy and none of them have to do with the contradiction that you claim he made. There's no reasoning in this quote.

Here's another contradiction in FF's play: They say I am confbiasing him as Scum.. Even if I am (I'm not) He's doing the same fucking thing to me!

This makes him mafia because _____.

Because Oka hasnt asked for it yet. Its not that you didnt do it, its that you wouldnt do it when someone asked. If Oka needs more info from me on hose reads to satisfy his curiosity then he can ask. If I refuse then itd be like you and scummy. However that situation hasnt taken place yet so...

Also legit question. When you find out im town, where do you go from there?

Ninja- naw bro, using confbias to add to my scum read of you is not the same.

You are the one who was pushing me for not giving examples. So what makes you think who asked you what would be satisfied without examples? On the one hand, you are arguing that I am Scummy for not providing examples, which shows that you agree examples are necessary, otherwise there is no reason to bring it up in the first place. On the other hand, you are not providing examples yourself and basically representing that an overview of play is how you personally operate. So then why am I Scummy for operating in the same way that you are? You are looking for EXCUSES to SR me.

I think it's pretty valid for FF to scumread you for not talking about your reads. You're trying to make it about the specific way in which you or he talks about reads, which is irrelevant. You bogged the discussion down in inanities then scumread him for being bogged down in inanities. It's a neat rhetorical trick, but it's stupid.

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

Ugh. I hate this post. The idea put forth in this post is so very very bad. You don't lynch people because of their title, you lynch them because they are Scum, period.

FF is bad, which makes him mafia because _______.

FF's point is actually that it's not unreasonable for Iceman to have the idea that he had, and that he dislikes Oka's vote as a result. You're misconstruing his argument. Sure, make the argument that this is scummy of FF because something something TMI reads, but don't pretend that he's saying it's okay to PL the IC and scumread for that, that's just wrong.

it's not the pagecount and number of posts that makes it slow its the lack of scumhunting and wagon forming which im at fault for but nonetheless its giving a slow impression

Lack of scum hunting? Its day 1 and we are on page, what, 8? We are still very much in the feeling each other out stage for anyone to have really strong feelings about wanting to hang anyone. Shit we can have hunches and we can have inklings, but if you are looking for a full blown case this early then you are scum and need to die.

Also, at you talking about the lack of wagons forming when you commented on not wanting to join the one on flicker and would rather do your own thing over there.

So many things wrong with this post...

You should be Scum hunting regardless of what Day it is, for one.

Wanting wagons to form and not wanting to be on ANY wagon isn't a contradiction, seriously.

FF had been scumhunting. He was only saying that Oka didn't need to try to rev the game up, and that he thought it would be unrealistic for anyone to have a case-worthy scumread that early in the game. Why is this post scummy, Quick? You haven't put forth any reasoning, you're just saying that FF is wrong/bad/scummy.

Sure, I think a lot of the stuff you quoted from FF is pretty scummy, and guess what? I'm scumreading FF. But I think your reasons for thinking he's scum are pretty drab at best, horrific at worst, mostly nonexistent as far as what you have put into this thread, and I think you can do better.

Also, I see you are letting FF off the hook for doing meta (based on very few games) but telling everyone else not to do that. Is there a reason you feel FF is exempt from this?

I'm not. Why do you think that I am?

First off, I'm not having a quote war with you, I'm just not. Secondly, you are confbiasing me HARD right now. You realize pretty much everything I said about FF being Scummy you COMPLETELY dismissed right? Like WTAF is this? I cannot see you actually thinking this.

As far as you not having a problem with FF doing meta in such a shallow way, I can search your ISO for "Meta" if you want, but I am pretty sure you have just let FF go to town on that for no apparent reason whatsoever. If I am wrong about this, please quote where you told FF not to do that in this game or something similar at least.

This is a legit question: Do you just want to 1v1 me? I know Oka already propositioned nancy with the same ask, but I think we might just have to. I don't mind being scumread, but something about you or your posting makes me want to

I am more than willing to make this about just you and I so that one of us is out of the game today.

[Formerfish]

So, no?

[Formerfish]

VOTE: Quick

ninja- but scum!fish actively gladiates on day 1?

nancy, I would love if you stopped making it seem like I am attacking him. His attitude towards me the entire game has been off. I really think the only way we have forward is for one of us to go. He thinks I am scum and I think he is. So best way to settle this and move on is to lynch one of us.

[Formerfish]

Can you both please stop. I don't care what either of your alignments are, just stop. If you can't interact civilly with each other, stop interacting.

Relax, the insults haven't even started from FF yet.

You're actually not wrong, but im trying to keep my inner kuribo inside.

[Formerfish]

VOTE: Quick

ninja- but scum!fish actively gladiates on day 1?

nancy, I would love if you stopped making it seem like I am attacking him. His attitude towards me the entire game has been off. I really think the only way we have forward is for one of us to go. He thinks I am scum and I think he is. So best way to settle this and move on is to lynch one of us.

Holy

Fuck

,

dude are you for real right now?

Very much so.

[Formerfish]

Everyone in the game needs to take a stance on the Trinity lynch. I personally don't think there's almost ever a world where she's town here after her readflip on Oka. I think her flip clears Oka and probably Quick. I think her FF read is weird but I have 100 eyes emoji at 569 and don't think I would clear him as a partner just because she was scumreading him and buddying people who were voting for him.

pedit FF, why are you completely ignoring Trinity's post?

pedit Quick cut it out. I am reporting your posts.

I'm not ignoring her posts, im just busy dealing with oka and quick right now.

Oka, I can look at your other games. I can look at the game I modded that you were in. I can take a read off of you from one game to the next. Are you telling me that getting a baseline for you and trying to see the similarities and differences game to game isnt something you do as well?

And maybe you arent misrepping him, but yoiu are for sure missing the point and pushing a nonscummy thing as scummy. So either shit or get off the pot with that one.

WM- because scum is being allowed to live and drive wedges between us.

[Formerfish]

I have a working theory that the scum team is trinity and quick.

Oka, your probably not scum and ive just been tunneling you. We need to find a way to stop doing this dance that we do each time we play. Sometimes you just piss me off with how you play because its so erratic that getting a decent read on you is hard.

I need to go look at something re: my scum team read.

[Formerfish]

Look, bro... I am trying to prevent a fucking meltdown here.
What you are suggesting is exactly what I am trying to PREVENT...
I don't think a fucking 1v1 with you at this point is at all productive.
IDK why you are insisting on pissing me off, but I am so done engaging with you.

Do you think I am scum?
Cause if you do and you are town then why not 1v1 me? We obviously are not going to be able to coexist in this game.
Im not trying to piss you off, that is just where you seem to reside when it comes to me apparently.

[Formerfish]

What the fuck are you reporting my post for? Anger? Pretty sure that's not breaking any rules.

You are making the word "fuck" size 40 or whatever and are being abusive. It's not okay to treat people like this.

How am I being abusive!!!!

Really, how??? I don't understand how on earth you can think this!!! It's insane! I haven't used a single ad hominem, I haven't told anyone to fuck off even. All I have done is use the word fuck. That's NOT breaking any rules as far as I can see. Really? You want me to get banned for saying fuck? Why?

I didnt take anything he said as abusive. I think that he is scum and is trying to push his wincon forward, im not going to fault him for that. I think that his overly antagonistic stance towards me is evidence of his agenda.

[Formerfish]

No, im not.

[Formerfish]

@ff how confident are you in quick scum?

Like 65-75%

[Formerfish]

I've gone through a lot of therapy to learn how NOT to go over the edge. I am someone who tends to get heated in the game. Clearly, you know this or you wouldn't be antagonizing me like this.

I think it's kind of rotten of you anyways to try and get under my skin to form a read on me. I used to do that too, until I saw that people actually don't like that too much, *shock*

I am not trying to antagonize you at this point. I told nancy I could be civil, but that I would not stop pushing a scum read. You are a scum read and I am getting sick of you hounding me at every step I make. You are tilting at windmills and havent even stopped for a second to reconsider your read at all.

You think that I am trying to push your buttons but im not. I dont know if thats just the only thing you can come up with for a defense to what I am saying, but if I wanted you to melt down, why defend you to nancy? Why wouldnt I just let her do the work for me and move on? Because i think you are scum and this is all in the game.\

If you want to make it about more than what it is then that is a you issue and not a me issue.

[Formerfish]

@ff
We aren't lynching Quick today.

Whyd you say this?

[Formerfish]

nancy, it kinda seems like you have a stronger scum read on trinity, i could be wrong though. Am I?

[Formerfish]

If I cant get Quick today, I can get his partner.

VOTE: Trinity

[Formerfish]

nancy, it kinda seems like you have a stronger scum read on trinity, i could be wrong though. Am I?

My read on her is a big question mark at the moment. I think she's always town if Oka is mafia but if he's town then I just go back to the way she moved onto the wagon and there's a lot of scum motivation there I think. I think WhyMafia is probably right that it's not impossible for her to have had that readflip as town (I don't think the TWTBAW thing is anything), so no I don't scumread her more than Oka at all and the wagons also line up more with scum Oka worlds since I'm townreading everyone on the Oka wagon (except ?Trinity?) and I scumread both Oka/Eragon, who are pushing Trinity.

I can see why you arrived where you did with the way you feel. I guess we are just seeing things slightly differently, which changes things drastically for us.

[Formerfish]

If I cant get Quick today, I can get his partner.

VOTE: Trinity

Why is Trinity mafia, FF?

Early lean for the way she jumped on me during rvs.
I feel like she is sucking up to you as the IC.
She feels like she is tryharding to seem town.
The switch from rvs to serious votes for a broken meta argument. And her agreement with anyone else who scum read me. (this brings up and interesting question. If she was scumreading me for a busted meta, then why was she liking all the scum reads of other people on me, only to flip off of me when she isoed me and saw I was being aggressive? Wouldn't she still scum read me because she saw that other people had "good" reasons?)
The defensiveness with Oka when he was asking her questions, and the fact that she eventually says she isnt going to answer his questions anymore.

[Formerfish]

Biggest reason on Trinity was the whole reads list thing with nancy. I wasnt a scum read to trinity but i was in her bottom 3 and she could lynch any of us. When nancy called her on it she walks it back and lols that she thought nancy just wanted a list? What is that even about? Of course she wanted a list, she said so, one that listed your reads from most town to most scum. It came across as very fake and icky.

[Formerfish]

Mmm. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that she would be fed up with him here as town.

True, that is a thing that could be happening. If it were just that thing I dont think we would be having this little chat about her right now. Its not though and I guess im just seeing her reasoning being a little different.

[Formerfish]

Formerfish is a strong player who strongarms lynches.

He attacks, picks, and essentially bullies his target whether he is right or wrong until others can see his way and get his target lynched.

But he doesn't stir the pot, Formerfish does not openly challenge others to a 1v1. More likely if you piss him off he just ignores you and tries to get others to vote his target.

This is what I've seen of FF as well.

You've seen me in two games and we haven't had a player like quick in either of them.

[Formerfish]

Unvote

Kinda don't want to risk a hammer before WhyMafia has a chance to get back to me.

This is 1000% a scummy thing to do. Again.

I disagree. I can see how it can seem scummy, but think about it this way. If you think Nancy is scum for this then it'd only be scummy if she was bussing and pulled off her partners wagon like that. You've pointed out that she's done it twice now to different people. She can't be partnered with them both.

Now town is going to want to run people up, get some info and then regroup. It sounds like she is trying to get a read on WM and doesn't want the day to end before she can get those answers in case they end up being important.

I know that in a game recently I was cut off by the mod closing the thread for night. I had been working on this big post to explain where I thought the game was if I died. I never got a chance to post it because I was the nk. So I can understand why town!Nancy would pull off in those cases. She's not saying she isn't interested in the lynch anymore, just that we have a bit of time to look for some more answers.

[Formerfish]

Either way. For whatever reason. Your game is different in this game.

A good part of why I'm primarily playing newbie games is to improve my own game. I am taking the bits that have been successful for me from previous games, meshing them together and trying some other shit. Every single one of my games since I've been back have been different to some degree, it's called evolution.

Ninja- I mean I guess since I see her as town I don't see it as controlling the thread in a bad way. And none of the wagons have dispersed, they are still there. You could always compromise your read for the benefit of town gaining info by voting Trinity.

[Formerfish]

I still think Nancy is town I just don't like this controlling nature of the town wagons.

I also think it's a big mistake to lynch Trinity. I know I'll regret this if she does flip Scum but, I"m going to call it now. She's town.

Is this the same confidence that made you hop off the 2.8 train last game?

[Formerfish]

Point out the post you are talking about? I remember saying I took a break because of outside influences. That was the Lions share of the reason. The other is that I figured out I had no good process to take from game to game and really do well with, that's why I'm in newbie games right now. To refine my own play.

[Formerfish]

I do mind. I don't do fishing expeditions like that. You are the one who brought the post up, you can find it again if you want me to discuss it any further.

I also don't know what this has to do with anything.

[Formerfish]

Have we all been drinking the koolaid and nancy is scum here?

Like what are you even doing right now? This is a legit question with under 2 days time til deadline...

[Formerfish]

Oka, what was your day 1 read on eragon?

[Formerfish]

Expand on those reasons

[Formerfish]

but then again Formerfish can still be playing long con

he isn't acting like he was acting with my previous game, in fact its quite different in content/tone/method/activity

Yeah. I feel like I've explained this. I don't think you are going to see me the same way game to game right now. I think you could see things in me and things I do, but I am going to edit pieces out of my play and try others. Each of my games so far has shown a progression of sorts. There is no longer con. Just trying to parse the situation we are in now and how we got to be here.

[Formerfish]

FF still manipulative as shit. He might be saying he wasn't deliberately trying to piss me off, but I def think he was and the fact he is trying to cover that up is really really bad to me.

At first I was trying to piss you off because your attitude during the whole "to read or not to read" debate was shitty.

Then nancy asked us to play nice and I said I would.

From then on out I have not been attempting in any way to piss you off deliberately. You may feel differently, and there is nothing I can say or do to change the way that you feel, because its all in your head and not real. Why would I defend you on your game play to someone else if I was trying to stir you up? Why is it that every time I bring up a decent point to you it gets ignored? Is that so you can continue the narrative that Im this big bad guy pushing you around and you are really the victim here?

[Formerfish]

@quick, what im saying is that there is an extremely sizeable chance that this scumread direction is wrong since there are three people doing your scumtell and only two of us have a chance at being scum.

But whatever, could you elaborate why drawing attention to the nk is scummy?

Pretty simple really. If you make a post that all it says is "I am so surprised by the NK" and nothing else, that's the distinction I am trying to make here. Both you and Eragon said some other content related thing besides just that you were surprised by the NK. Making a sole post all on its own saying you are surprised by the NK without any other content in the post shows you are intending to show your surprise for the NK and nothing more.

Eragon said more than "Oh I am surprised" and you had a vote with the comment, which you explained later. Because of this, I feel what NM did was much more Scummy than what either of you did regarding the NK.

I actually agree with this view as well. Its almost like he felt he had to say something about the nk but didnt want to push it to far since there wasnt much activity yet.

[Formerfish]

I feel bad putting FF in the scum bucket. Does that make it right?

Sorry, man.

For these reasons?

FF - Scum. I always get suspicious of people defending me. Sorry, I tried not to feel scummy about it but now I do. Plus while I get what you're saying about your play from previous games you have to understand that it's all I have to go on.

Not even a little bit, but you do you, ill do me. Didnt i defend you last game as well though, and I was right to because you were town getting talked up for some bullshit, just like here?

[Formerfish]

tho i do it as town sometimes for real reasons

and now ive hit a loop

formerfish and nancy please do something

God you are like an annoying little chicken pecking and pecking and pecking.

What do you want me to do?

Trinity flipping town should put you in a different light because she was technically your counter wagon. Her town could = you scum. The push you are making right out of the gate seems forced, like you hatched the plan over night to kill flicker and pin it on eragon.

I hate nancy right now because i cant get a fucking read on her. I hated the way she played the end of day 1 especially in light of how much I loved some of her posts early and mid day.

Eragon is showing some signs of life, but only just today and that doesnt give us much to go off of. The whole vote thing still stuck with me though and his defense to Oka came off as wordy to me. Like if Oka came at me with that noise hed get an lol gif and a yawn from me.

WM- why replace out right now without saying anything in thread? I know shit comes up and this is usually NAI but this one seems more shady than most, I mean why case Oka that way and then bounce in silence?

Iceman- I like the cageyness towards nancy, shows some balls and I dont think scum does that after the day and night we had yesterday. I dont like the woe is me posting about his reads, just do the best you can with what you have and hope for more info or more time.

Quick is ignoring any post from me that he cant twist into me being his personal attacker. In fact im pretty sure only nancy has even spoke up about the way that he has been confbiased towards me the whole game.

[Formerfish]

talk more, show conviction, push someone, do something. i can't read you because you are playing radically different and i don't know what to make of your plays. im trying to figure out what you are seeing and doing but im drawing blanks.

I dont think that i am not contributing right now, and ive told you before im not your monkey and wont play the game you want me to play. I have shown conviction on a read that I was told wasnt going to get play on day 1, and here I am still pushing that read today. See me as town and figure out a way to work with me on someone. Ask me questions about something I just said.

@formerfish, what do you make of the flicker nk? just say something so nancy will start talking please

I dont like doing nk analysis, theres too much wifom in it. I know that as scum the nk is something i put a lot of thought into because of the implications it can have and what it can do to the plays i have in motion. Look at my recent scum game for a look into why I pick who I do. Flicker is a strange choice because she was a townie on the mislynch, which would lessen the choices of scum on the wagon. This could be a good play for scum when the wagon was all town, or maybe just 1 scum on.

No idea what nancy is doing now.

ninja- and I was town that game too.

[Formerfish]

@formerfish what are you going to do about your lack of a read on nancy?

I cant force her to post. I would need her to post and to interact with me. Do you want me to mimic your play style asking a question and then quoting it every 4th post in a slightly larger font and sometimes changing colors in a more and more urgent fashion until it drives someone crazy?

[Formerfish]

Trinity flipping town should put you in a different light because she was technically your counter wagon. Her town could = you scum. The push you are making right out of the gate seems forced, like you hatched the plan over night to kill flicker and pin it on eragon.

I dont like doing nk analysis, theres too much wifom in it.

Not sure I like this too much. On the one hand, you are saying you don't like doing NKA, on the other, you are doing it with some pretty tin-foily thoughts on the subject. IDK, maybe I just expect a bit of conviction in the second thing because you're not a newb so I would assume you have some of these kind of things nailed down at this point and part of that would be just not talking about NKA if you don't like doing it/don't find it helpful.

I dont like to do it because its usually meaningless. Like look what I did, just imagined something that could have happened and as crazy as it sounds its just as likely as anything else that could have happened. I was being more cutting towards Oka with his insistence on me doing something. It was more of a be careful what you wish for because I could easily turn back on him. It was made flippantly.

[Formerfish]

I don't see scum Oka claiming VT necessarily?

Why not? If he claims a PR he runs the risk of catching votes from the actual PRs who would know he was lying (depending on the claim and the set up). A VT claim is safe.

[Formerfish]

Yeah, we probably should have just lynched Oka instead yesterday. His VT claim means we didnt out a PR and that we wont be losing one. We would have gotten some info and been in much of the same position today, but maybe with more people now townreading trinity... i dunno.

[Formerfish]

@nancy- i like iceman for town, and you.

I feel like Sky could be scum just based off her reads list, but only for the slightest and most convoluted reason, so it doesnt even really play yet.

I think that Quick is scum and has been trying to play up the AtE and sympathy angles when it comes to me. Says hes trying to re-evaluate me, but doesnt really want to interact with me.

Eragon could be but that would mean that im definitely seeing a town!Oka which im just not 100% on board with yet.

So I guess I'm here

VOTE: Quick

[Formerfish]

nancy

remind me why eragon is scum again please k thx

What in the actual fuck is this post? You cased him yourself right as the day began.

[Formerfish]

@nancy- i like iceman for town, and you.

I feel like Sky could be scum just based off her reads list, but only for the slightest and most convoluted reason, so it doesnt even really play yet.

I think that Quick is scum and has been trying to play up the AtE and sympathy angles when it comes to me. Says hes trying to re-evaluate me, but doesnt really want to interact with me.

Eragon could be but that would mean that im definitely seeing a town!Oka which im just not 100% on board with yet.

So I guess I'm here

VOTE: Quick

Not really sure what gives you the indication that I am avoiding you when you've made like... how many posts between thinking I should be interacting with you and when I said I was trying to reevaluate you? It's almost as if you are trying to operate under some pre-cognition of what I am going to do or something, which I don't really like.

I guess its more so the fact that I have mentioned a few times now that me defending you to nancy when she was saying you were being abusive is very contrary to what you are trying to push, that I was trying to manipulate you through that entire thing. If I were doing what you think I was wouldnt it make more sense for me as scum to let her really dig into you and let you spiral out of control? Why would I stop that from happening if that was my endgame in your opinion?

[Formerfish]

me wait for u to have laptop back to write new post because me not convinced anymore

me thinks that formerfish no put in good effort into solve game

me thinks formerfish is scum

I have a scum pool narrowed down to 3 people, with one of them being more town than the other 2. I have 2 solid town reads and another that is growing on me very quickly.

The only way I could solve this further is if i had some actionable intelligence from last night, and if i had that my push would have been a lot stronger than it has been today.

Ninja- ook, let me ask this first before i jump to conclusions. What is the point of the question.

[Formerfish]

desire to solve game

This is bullshit spewing from your mouth right now.

Have you solved the game? What is your path to victory here?

[Formerfish]

@nancy- i like iceman for town, and you.

I feel like Sky could be scum just based off her reads list, but only for the slightest and most convoluted reason, so it doesnt even really play yet.

I think that Quick is scum and has been trying to play up the AtE and sympathy angles when it comes to me. Says hes trying to re-evaluate me, but doesnt really want to interact with me.

Eragon could be but that would mean that im definitely seeing a town!Oka which im just not 100% on board with yet.

So I guess I'm here

VOTE: Quick

Not really sure what gives you the indication that I am avoiding you when you've made like... how many posts between thinking I should be interacting with you and when I said I was trying to reevaluate you? It's almost as if you are trying to operate under some pre-cognition of what I am going to do or something, which I don't really like.

I guess its more so the fact that I have mentioned a few times now that me defending you to nancy when she was saying you were being abusive is very contrary to what you are trying to push, that I was trying to manipulate you through that entire thing. If I were doing what you think I was wouldnt it make more sense for me as scum to let her really dig into you and let you spiral out of control? Why would I stop that from happening if that was my endgame in your opinion?

That's NAI.

So you think that as scum I would step in and stop you and nancy from going at it for .... what reason? Its not like i was trying to pocket you, ive been continuously calling you scum.

[Formerfish]

Alright Formerfish, I need to know what you are aiming to accomplish this game.
You can evidently see that I'm trying to figure out who is scum and I'm trying to clear out my uncertainties by asking them questions and developing my reads on them to see if I can actually discern anything.
I'm going to keep being a naggy asshole who keeps annoying the fuck out of you because either your scum or your town and you aren't playing to what you can be. You keep saying you have questions about reads and such and you need to narrow your pool, so why don't you go out and get some questions answered and do something about it? Why are you letting me and nancy dominate the discussion this game? You know that I'm not a good player at scumhunting, yet you seem content with me running around with my head cut off, accusing others and dancing with others. What's your game plan here man?

Its not bullshit, you should be perfectly aware that you aren't being your normal vocal self this game. Whether that is a conscious decision or not, whatever, but its getting irritating because I feel like you aren't putting in much effort to get others to crack.

Have I solved the game? No, but I'm trying to do so.

What's my path to victory? Finding scum.

What am i trying to accomplish? Lynching scum.
You keep saying that I am not trying to solve the game. I have it down to a more finite level than you do so the implication that I need to get my shit together and do something to help the town is laughable. Its not like you are sitting on two solid scum reads and you are just waiting for us to catch up to your flashy ass.
Am I allowing you to run around with your head cut off? I dont know, is that something that is dependent on me? Like nancy has already told you to calm the fuck down, do you need me to say it to you as well? Maybe i just dont give a shit about your reads right now but i can see where they would come from town. I know your judgement is clouded because you cant read me correctly, how much faith am I going to put into the rest of your reads?
Call it what you will, but youre just mad at me for not playing to my potential when you arent even giving much of a fuck about the things I do have to say. You were the one who told me my scum read on quick wasnt going to go anywhere on day 1. No one seems to really care to follow me now. So I guess I could start yelling at all of you about who I think is scum, or just wait until you put me at l-1 and get a claim out of me.

If you havent solved the game in its entirety than get off my dick about my lack of game solving. You want to follow me onto quick then lets go. You want to stay on me then we only waste time.

[Formerfish]

desire to solve game

This is bullshit spewing from your mouth right now.

Have you solved the game? What is your path to victory here?

And I don't see how this question aims to do anything other than to be snarky.

You are snarky but your aim isn't to be snarky.

Its meant to point out your hypocrisy. You want me to have the game solved by now when you dont even have it solved yourself yet.

[Formerfish]

I want you to put in the effort of having the game solved. I don't understand why you are playing so differently than our previous game together.

Your scumread on quick wasn't going anywhere day 1 because we didn't have time to flashwagon quick. But day 2 is a fresh day and you don't seem to care at all to convince anyone else that quick may be scum. Why? What happened to the steamroll strategy? What happened to calling others out on their bullshit and keeping the pressure on? What happened to you Formerfish?

Have you been reading the same fucking game I have been?

Have you seen the way quick reacts to me when I say just about anything to him? You really think that what you have seen before is going to get a favorable reaction out of him? If people are already talking about the toxicity of this thread i assure you what you are asking for would push us into full blown system of a down.

I was pretty sure that trinity was going to flip scum, her being town makes me pump the breaks a little and be more cautious. Look at my day 2 after alonzo was the mislynch. I didnt push nearly as hard as when I pushed on alonzo. Its like a second serve in tennis, more controlled and meant to just get the ball into play safely.

[Formerfish]

And you are going to sit here and be happy that nobody is listening to you? Are you really content with that? You are just going to accept the idea that the rest of town might run off with a lynch on someone other than your top scumread?

Well, since you guys are attempting to run me up, I suppose im not really worried about you running someone else up. I asked the dude to 1v1 me yesterday and that offer still stands. We can do this today, him or me.

[Formerfish]

Also I don't think this game is nearly close enough to be considered toxic. And I don't think you believe that either

I didnt say that it is. I said if people are saying it is then what you want me to do would make sure that it became a self fulfilling prophecy.

Are you intentionally being dense this game or are you having a hard time understanding what people are saying?

[Formerfish]

Listen Oka, you do what you feel you have to do. Know this though, be prepared with a backup plan, because when push comes to shove you are going to need it.

[Formerfish]

Literally only nancy is saying that.

Not even quick believes that.

Quick thinks that I am being toxic towards him. Nancy thinks we both are to a certain degree. Thats not the main fucking point here, but shit, lets fucking get stuck on that and derail what Im trying to get across to you which is obviously a high level thought with how much difficulty you are having with it.

Oka, shut the fuck up man.

[Formerfish]

Am I allowing you to run around with your head cut off? I dont know, is that something that is dependent on me? Like nancy has already told you to calm the fuck down, do you need me to say it to you as well? Maybe i just dont give a shit about your reads right now but i can see where they would come from town. I know your judgement is clouded because you cant read me correctly, how much faith am I going to put into the rest of your reads?

Thats to OKa again.

ANd to you quick because as scum I could have let that run its course without stepping in to stop it before it became a thing. You were on the edge and about to fall off it when nancy said she was reporting you. Why as scum do I pull you off that ledge by defending you? I dont. It simply doesnt happen. As scum I am going to let nancy be the one to push you over because then she will take the heat when you flipped town.

[Formerfish]

My 3 are you, quick, and eragon.

I dont have anything put together right now to show why, and with it being 2 am im not doing that right now.

[Formerfish]

You were more town than the other two, and eragon more so than quick.

This inane push you are making on me is having me seriously reconsider you though.

[Formerfish]

And im not looking for credit quick, i am looking for you to take an actual look at the motivation i would have to do that as town vs. as scum. Which one makes more sense to come from? You say you are looking to re-evaluate me but it doesnt look like you are doing much of that at all.

Oka, you could just follow me onto quick since we have more time today and that was your reasoning for it not being viable day 1.

[Formerfish]

Quick. Read this very carefully.

As scum I would have more reason to stay out of nancys way when she started in on you. As scum I would have sat on the sideline of that with a tub of popcorn and watched you swan dive off the high board into an empty pool.

I feel like to matter what happens today you guys arent going to even pretend to look other places.

Should I just claim here so we can all be on our merry ways?

[Formerfish]

Town motivation: Stopping the state of the game from devolving into something that wasnt going to be productive in the least.

Scum motivation: Not saying anything so that you (As town in this scenario since this is from your point of view of me) blow the thread up and burn the entire thing down. It was like I had doused you in gas and nancy just happened to light a match and throw it on the ground next to you. I saw it and stepped on it before it could light you aflame.

But you think I just did it for town cred, ok.

[Formerfish]

saying true things as Scum is one of the best ways to get TR.

Did i paraphrase this wrong?

[Formerfish]

Im not sure how thats an answer to a reasonable question. That is a quote from you. You think im scum. Those arent hard pieces to put together there quick.

[Formerfish]

I'm the doc.

[Formerfish]

Who did you protect?

Nancy.

[Formerfish]

My reads haven't changed.

Quick is scum because of the way he reacted to Iceman idea, and his whole treatment of me.

Then it's between eragon and Oka for me.

I have Iceman, Nancy and sky as town.

[Formerfish]

I would prefer a Quick lynch here but for some reason people seem strangly resistant towards it even though he has done jack shit, imo, other than push the doctor.

[Formerfish]

Because I felt she was the most town and had the highest chance of dying.

I feel like that's a stupid question too. Like why else would I protect someone?

[Formerfish]

Why the fuck would you want to do that? Quick has been a black hole this whole game.

[Formerfish]

Why the fuck would you want to do that? Quick has been a black hole this whole game.

This was in response to a long ago post that. It doesnt make any sense here because it lacks context. I didnt see the pages ahead of the one I was on.

[Formerfish]

VOTE: Quick


I don't like the complete skirting of the current topic and declaring an intent to hammer

Why not?

What exactly do I need to actually say about it?

Should be pretty obvious that FF resolves itself at this point. What should I be saying about it that need be said?

Is this your way of saying you dont believe my claim?

[Formerfish]

not

[Formerfish]

i dont like the idea of a mass claim.

Me claiming is bad enough.

[Formerfish]

Im a bit drunk and lit, so lets fucking play.

[Formerfish]

If there is a clear, they should claim.

If they dont have any actionable info they should keep quiet unless they are being pushed.