Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[OkaPoka]

First

VOTE: Formerfish

if he is town he will prove it

if he is scum we probably lost

[OkaPoka]

oh yeah ic will probably post but
to all newbies
this is RVS, or random voting stage
basically since on this site we play day start, nobody really starts with any information so generally people just vote randomly and ask questions to generate discussion and get reactions out of people
and the hope is town will get some information from RVS so we can move out of it and begin scumhunting (looking for the mafia)

[OkaPoka]

1) I'll be pretty active
2)yes and still suck, turns out people are good at lying
3) manipulating town definitely, hunting mafia too hard, too much brainpower

[OkaPoka]

Sarge, how much to you is too much posting or too little posting?

[OkaPoka]

Typically speaking, you should at least check in once every 24 hours at the bare minimum to comment on things, answer questions, or ask questions, but as the deadline gets closer, it is good to increase your posting and be more active, especially if no real lynch candidates have been presented imo.

[OkaPoka]

@nancy what are the point of these questions, especially question number 3

[OkaPoka]

you seemed somewhat convinced.

why aren't you voting flicker up?

[OkaPoka]

huh?

is that the famous scummy formerfish alt slip hydra?

[OkaPoka]

It's scummy because they are making it seem like they don't want to vote because we may be out of rvs already, not very likely when we are barely on page 2. They answer their own question by mentioning that nothing scummy has really come up, which would mean that most likely we are still in rvs.

So if they were concerned about being out of rvs as a reason to have not voted, their own reasoning is negated by their own observation of the game, and should have felt comfortable voting freely.

For some reason they didn't.

*She/her, thanks.

It's possible to be out of RVS on page 2, just as it's possible for scummy things to happen during RVS, so I think your logic here is wrong. From my perspective, it seemed like there might be enough substantive talk, especially based on/around nancy's questions, that we might be out of RVS, but I wasn't positive because I'm still pretty new and I'm not 100% sure when RVS ends (other than everybody agreeing that it's over). So, I could either risk making a random vote and getting scrutinized for that, or I could be wrong about the RVS status and risk being scrutinized for not voting at all. I went with "don't vote, explain why, and assume people will understand," but that failed, and here we are.

Speaking of vote scrutiny...

UNVOTE: maggie

VOTE: FormerFish

Not a fan of drug references

My understanding of RVS is that it only involves one random vote, and then the next vote should be serious. So, why this second non-serious vote?

why do you care about being scrutinized?

[OkaPoka]

You said you had the risk of making a random vote and getting the scrutinized for that versus getting scrutinized for not voting at all which makes me think that getting scrutinized is at the forefront of your mind.

[OkaPoka]

You said you had the risk of making a random vote and getting the scrutinized for that versus getting scrutinized for not voting at all which makes me think that getting scrutinized is at the forefront of your mind.

What do you think this means for her alignment, if anything?

dunno ye, depends on her meta. if she is a cautious town it means nothing but if she is a yolo town then it means she might be scum or a pr

[OkaPoka]

@nancy what are the point of these questions, especially question number 3

Now that nancy's responded, I want to know: What was the point of

this

question? You don't seem to have a problem with them, given you answered them (in post 18, although with less detail than basically everyone else). It also seems fairly obvious that at least one of the ways nancy uses them is for hunting, given how she'd already started sorting people based on their answers (12, 15). Plus, it seems a little off to me how it took you so long to wonder about them.

because some people like to play RQS over RVS and usually RQS ends up with a stalled game with no where to go because game quickly devolves into asking questions about NAI things.

[OkaPoka]

because some people like to play RQS over RVS and usually RQS ends up with a stalled game with no where to go because game quickly devolves into asking questions about NAI things.

Hum. Either a) the questions asked in RQS were bad, or b) the people in the game didn't know how to push the game forward. I don't think RQS as a thing is ever going to be at fault for the game stalling.

Sure, in mafiascum meta people are more familiar with just tunneling on stupid nonsense and yelling at each other, which lends itself better to RVS than RQS for obvious reasons, and might feel uncomfortable actually treating each other with decency and approaching the game from a more reasonable standpoint, but to say that RQS is to blame for people not knowing how to handle it properly is, um, sorta shortsighted, I think.

i guess it is shortsighted but you are the IC so you have some semblance of authority making it easy for scum!you to try and derail the game into non scumhunt mode. apathy and inaction are probably some of the leading causes of town losses in non role madness setups.

[OkaPoka]

Fuck. I meant to not answer that until they said something, but I just smoked a bowl on the shitter and forgot.

UNVOTE: maggie

VOTE: FormerFish

Not a fan of drug references

Fuck. I meant to not answer that until they said something, but I just smoked a bowl on the shitter and forgot.

UNVOTE: maggie

VOTE: FormerFish

Not a fan of drug references

Um. Why are you voting him? Do you think it's scummy that he made a drug reference? I feel like I'm missing something.

I thought we were still in RVS, and as Maggie is being replaced, and isn’t around, thought I’d switch my vote. So I didn’t think the drug reference was scummy, but just the reason for my random vote.

It's scummy because they are making it seem like they don't want to vote because we may be out of rvs already, not very likely when we are barely on page 2. They answer their own question by mentioning that nothing scummy has really come up, which would mean that most likely we are still in rvs.

So if they were concerned about being out of rvs as a reason to have not voted, their own reasoning is negated by their own observation of the game, and should have felt comfortable voting freely.

For some reason they didn't.

*She/her, thanks.

It's possible to be out of RVS on page 2, just as it's possible for scummy things to happen during RVS, so I think your logic here is wrong. From my perspective, it seemed like there might be enough substantive talk, especially based on/around nancy's questions, that we might be out of RVS, but I wasn't positive because I'm still pretty new and I'm not 100% sure when RVS ends (other than everybody agreeing that it's over). So, I could either risk making a random vote and getting scrutinized for that, or I could be wrong about the RVS status and risk being scrutinized for not voting at all. I went with "don't vote, explain why, and assume people will understand," but that failed, and here we are.

Speaking of vote scrutiny...

UNVOTE: maggie

VOTE: FormerFish

Not a fan of drug references

My understanding of RVS is that it only involves one random vote, and then the next vote should be serious. So, why this second non-serious vote?

Oops. I didn’t realise there was a restriction on how many random votes you could do. Sorry. Should I unvote?

@trinityNZ

1) did you know you were rvs'ing and putting FF L-2 this early into the game?
2) is 64 sarcasm?

[OkaPoka]

UNVOTE:

[OkaPoka]

@flicker i mean sure draw conclusions before the q&a session with trinity is over

[OkaPoka]

Fuck. I meant to not answer that until they said something, but I just smoked a bowl on the shitter and forgot.

UNVOTE: maggie

VOTE: FormerFish

Not a fan of drug references

Fuck. I meant to not answer that until they said something, but I just smoked a bowl on the shitter and forgot.

UNVOTE: maggie

VOTE: FormerFish

Not a fan of drug references

Um. Why are you voting him? Do you think it's scummy that he made a drug reference? I feel like I'm missing something.

I thought we were still in RVS, and as Maggie is being replaced, and isn’t around, thought I’d switch my vote. So I didn’t think the drug reference was scummy, but just the reason for my random vote.

It's scummy because they are making it seem like they don't want to vote because we may be out of rvs already, not very likely when we are barely on page 2. They answer their own question by mentioning that nothing scummy has really come up, which would mean that most likely we are still in rvs.

So if they were concerned about being out of rvs as a reason to have not voted, their own reasoning is negated by their own observation of the game, and should have felt comfortable voting freely.

For some reason they didn't.

*She/her, thanks.

It's possible to be out of RVS on page 2, just as it's possible for scummy things to happen during RVS, so I think your logic here is wrong. From my perspective, it seemed like there might be enough substantive talk, especially based on/around nancy's questions, that we might be out of RVS, but I wasn't positive because I'm still pretty new and I'm not 100% sure when RVS ends (other than everybody agreeing that it's over). So, I could either risk making a random vote and getting scrutinized for that, or I could be wrong about the RVS status and risk being scrutinized for not voting at all. I went with "don't vote, explain why, and assume people will understand," but that failed, and here we are.

Speaking of vote scrutiny...

UNVOTE: maggie

VOTE: FormerFish

Not a fan of drug references

My understanding of RVS is that it only involves one random vote, and then the next vote should be serious. So, why this second non-serious vote?

Oops. I didn’t realise there was a restriction on how many random votes you could do. Sorry. Should I unvote?

@trinityNZ

1) did you know you were rvs'ing and putting FF L-2 this early into the game?
2) is 64 sarcasm?

[OkaPoka]

okay trinity, nancy, and stanley are town

[OkaPoka]

im having a hard time really scumreading anyone rn tho

thought i had a direction with trinity but meh

im not really seeing flicker scum rn

pretty sure former is town

[OkaPoka]

huh?

[OkaPoka]

trinity is town because i don't see a new player interact that much and be scum

nancy ur town because i don't see you interacting that much to be scum

stanley feels like a rational town player

---

i thought trinity might have been scum with the rvs vote thing she did on FF but i don't think so anymore, mainly because i think her not understanding it was l2 seems genuine

flicker seems a bit defensive but nothing concrete yet

former is town because reasons

---
unvoted because we are out of rvs

and ill read that eragon post later

[OkaPoka]

odds that scum are iceman and sargealpha?

[OkaPoka]

has iceman even posted?


also, I dont like the fact that you are asking about a scumteam of 2 people(that might be newbies. I dont know) and have had almost zero thread presence

saying it cuz im not getting any hard scum pings from the active players

[OkaPoka]

trinity is town because i don't see a new player interact that much and be scum

nancy ur town because i don't see you interacting that much to be scum

stanley feels like a rational town player

---

i thought trinity might have been scum with the rvs vote thing she did on FF but i don't think so anymore, mainly because i think her not understanding it was l2 seems genuine

flicker seems a bit defensive but nothing concrete yet

former is town because reasons

---
unvoted because we are out of rvs

and ill read that eragon post later

saw you explain it after I posted, sorry.

so you thought trinity was scum, but when they said they didnt know it was L-2 it went to town????

kinda

i was hoping i could bait trinity into saying something incriminating that i could latch onto but she didn't so ehh

[OkaPoka]

that's a lot of effort for an analogy

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

[OkaPoka]

but do you policy lynch ics?

[OkaPoka]

or as a scum player they can do exactly what you are doing, leading an inexperienced town to have extreme paranoia against an ic and get a free mislynch

[OkaPoka]

also i don't think ive played a game with rqs with it i just read some theory in MD about rvs vs rqs so i was seeing what nancy was going for here

[OkaPoka]

call me lazy but i was looking for trinity to either contradict herself or say something like "yeah i was being sarcastic and i knew i was putting formerfish at l2 just doing it for the shits and giggles xd"

[OkaPoka]

yeah ff is town

[OkaPoka]

what im saying is experienced scum can easily pull of IC lynches

I also feel like scum is going to night kill the active/most experienced players first. So it brings in the whole..... why is the IC still alive after a few nights?

i mean these can probably be the exact words some scum SE's use when they want to lynch an IC

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

maybe he is town but im not getting many scumreads rn and i feel like his post on nancy is fake and the comment on IC's sounds like he wants to keep his lynch options open

[OkaPoka]

it feels like it was phrased in a way that allows iceman to build upon it later to attack nancy w/o really needing to build a legitimate in game case on her

like instead of saying something about nancy feels off, feels like she is controlling town he goes with the proposition that cannot really be argued against

[OkaPoka]

alright then who do you suggest i put my vote on and why?

[OkaPoka]

it was a semi serious question i guess?

because i wasn't getting any scumreads again, i was asking what are the odds that the reason being is that the two scum are the ppl not talking

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

maybe he is town but im not getting many scumreads rn and i feel like his post on nancy is fake and the comment on IC's sounds like he wants to keep his lynch options open

When have you ever had strong scum reads on day 1, thats not really your style man? See, its posts like this that do worry me about you. Of course hes keeping his options open, its day 1, we all have our options open. I would not lynch like 3 people right now, the rest are all lynchable to some degree. This is overly aggressive play from you at this point in the game, and its propelling you further up my list of to die.

k

who is scum?

[OkaPoka]

because my vote is not on anyone and at this point im just going to grasp at straws to find scum

i mean i could go ahead and drop a vote on flicker but other people seem to be pushing that so I might as well do other stuff in the meantime

this game feels way too slow for my taste, gotta shake things up somehow

[OkaPoka]

yeah i think this game is slow sue me

[OkaPoka]

if we had a 1 month deadline this game would still be going slowly imo

[OkaPoka]

tho i haven't played an RVS newbie game in a couple years

[OkaPoka]

it's not the pagecount and number of posts that makes it slow its the lack of scumhunting and wagon forming which im at fault for but nonetheless its giving a slow impression

[OkaPoka]

im back catching up gimme a moment

[OkaPoka]

since responding while reading seems to be the format ill do it too

not the fact that its 2 random people, the fact that its 2 people with zero thread presence and that are noobs(if im not mistaken)

if thats not hella opportunistic idk what is

the point is that they have no thread presence so im wondering if they might be the scum team given that im getting townreads/leaning town on most other people

because my vote is not on anyone and at this point im just going to grasp at straws to find scum

i mean i could go ahead and drop a vote on flicker but other people seem to be pushing that so I might as well do other stuff in the meantime

this game feels way too slow for my taste, gotta shake things up somehow

Give me back town!Oka who wanders around like mister Magoo without his glasses ass ending his way into fiding scum on day 2/3. When are you aggressive early game?

i mean if you want to do a deep dive into my older games im pretty aggro early game calling for peoples heads 5 pages in, also get lynch for it half the time on d1 but what can you do
ill try and wander onto scum but usually my scumreads develop with interacting with others rather than seeing others interact with others
guess i like attention?

it's not the pagecount and number of posts that makes it slow its the lack of scumhunting and wagon forming which im at fault for but nonetheless its giving a slow impression

Lack of scum hunting? Its day 1 and we are on page, what, 8? We are still very much in the feeling each other out stage for anyone to have really strong feelings about wanting to hang anyone. Shit we can have hunches and we can have inklings, but if you are looking for a full blown case this early then you are scum and need to die.

Also, at you talking about the lack of wagons forming when you commented on not wanting to join the one on flicker and would rather do your own thing over there.

meh feels to me like a whole lot of chit chat and not a whole lot of your scum and you need to die. maybe chit chat helps people scumread? im kinda selfish and i cant scumread off of chit chat so i want to move the game out of the direction we are in.

i feel like if i join the flicker wagon id be basically saying have fun nancy and then dip out the thread, pushing an unique case helps me get in the game and develop scumreads based on interaction with others.

[OkaPoka]

not the fact that its 2 random people, the fact that its 2 people with zero thread presence and that are noobs(if im not mistaken)

if thats not hella opportunistic idk what is

I guess, but like, he has some shape of a townread on everyone else, no?

so its just PoE then...

PoE D1???

i fucking hate poe but im lost so whatever

VOTE: Oka

Not into the aggro stance he is taking here. Not into the fact that he avoids a wagon while complaining about wagons not forming. This is not the town!Oka I know.

i mean its not that aggro but i guess you are entitled to your own opinion

not the fact that its 2 random people, the fact that its 2 people with zero thread presence and that are noobs(if im not mistaken)

if thats not hella opportunistic idk what is

I guess, but like, he has some shape of a townread on everyone else, no?

so its just PoE then...

PoE D1???

adding onto this,

If it truly is PoE, im truly amazed that ANYONE can have 7 solid enough townreads that they think that the 2 scum are the only people they dont townred

town: me, nancy, ff, eragon, trinity, stanley
null: sarge
leaning scum after some thought but don't need to push because others: flicker
scum: iceman

@Oka where'd you go my dude

sry

[OkaPoka]

ebwop: when i label iceman as scum i mean ever so slightly scummy


okay i dont think anything else needs responding to

[OkaPoka]

at this point im just waiting for the replacement to sarge to replace in and say something so i can vote them lol

[OkaPoka]

im town

AMA

[OkaPoka]

also please ask me questions it helps me form reads on you

[OkaPoka]

uh because i want to throw my vote somewhere

yeah i guess i could have danced with him a bit but oops, probably would have been the better play

i just hoped throwing my vote down would get the ball rolling in a direction that was more clear and focused on scumhunting

[OkaPoka]

FF is actively engaging with people. He is also going out of his way to correct things that are not directly relevant to him which makes me think he is town cuz if i were scum i wouldn't care about correcting things and just let people argue and have at it.

pedit @ff wdym? like im editing down what you are saying or im missing questions that you have?
UNVOTE:
not anymore
probs going to iso some people and see if there is a potential case
sometimes when you engage with people they don't know if you are scumreading them or not so i like to throw down a vote to show hey, i think you might be scum. but you do you man.

pedit2: nope, rushing games are scummy but i dont feel like i want to rush the game, i feel like the game is dragging but w/e

[OkaPoka]

huh?

Your unvote is weird.

Why was it weird? He just pointed out that trinity voting brought me to l-2, and his vote was on me as well. Since his vote on me was in rvs and we are clearly out of it, it would make sense to move or at least remove a rvs vote which is currently the leading wagon based solely off of rvs votes.

maybe correct might be the wrong term

[OkaPoka]

he is going out of his way to interject himself into conversations and attempts to make a genuine attempt at clarifying things that don't need to involve him

@ff maybe i did that subconsciously idk i promise it wasnt on purpose, whenever i read a post i ask myself do i want/need to answer this?

[OkaPoka]

trinity actually might be scum

---

pedit: well isn't that kinda ur job to figure out

[OkaPoka]

yes

how are the results so far?

I'm getting the feeling they may be off but maybe you've done a retest so idk

[OkaPoka]

yeah i think trinity is scum, she hasn't really meaningful engaged with anyone without really being prompted to.
feels like she is reading the thread, answers any questions directed at her and then disappears
town would be more proactive imo

VOTE: trinity
ff might hate me for voting her already but i don't really have questions for her

[OkaPoka]

huh?

Your unvote is weird.

Why was it weird? He just pointed out that trinity voting brought me to l-2, and his vote was on me as well. Since his vote on me was in rvs and we are clearly out of it, it would make sense to move or at least remove a rvs vote which is currently the leading wagon based solely off of rvs votes.

has iceman even posted?


also, I dont like the fact that you are asking about a scumteam of 2 people(that might be newbies. I dont know) and have had almost zero thread presence

C'mon, its not a huge deal to make that joke. And Iceman had posted at that point, mostly to say that he wasn't forgetting about the game. He seems to be here now. I have like 2 games played with him recently. We'll see whats up with him.

what joke??

Oka made a joke about the scum team being the 2 people who havent really posted much. In a newbie that could very well be what happens sometimes. Town has a want to get out there and meet each other. We want to size each other up, really get each others weight. We can only really do that by being right next to them, or as I know it to be called, dancing. This is how I town hunt and where I get my reads from. Scum has to be weary of everything they do each time they interact with people because its all a lie. What scum says to one person they have to say to all, and when you are lying lies tend to build on themselves until there is this invisible web. Then you have town people who start to dive into every word someone has posted and you start to see the web being built over time. Thats why is so hard for scum to hide forever, and why newbie scum try to hide until they cant anymore.

@nancy

i mean he even was suspicious of me at the time but felt a need to clarify some of things i said even if i personally didn't actually mean those things

scum wouldn't really have motivation to do this imo
town would want to have the truth out there

[OkaPoka]

yeah im kinda am looking for reasons to vote people because im trying to find scum in a game where im getting town vibes from most

FF might hate me b/c he wants me to tango before i fire

i think trinity lives in new zealand but that might be reaching

[OkaPoka]

yeah i think trinity is scum, she hasn't really meaningful engaged with anyone without really being prompted to.
feels like she is reading the thread, answers any questions directed at her and then disappears
town would be more proactive imo

VOTE: trinity
ff might hate me for voting her already but i don't really have questions for her

and earlier you called her town?

indeed

[OkaPoka]

nancy guess the scumteam, go!

[OkaPoka]

are you this active as scum?

[OkaPoka]

are you this active as scum?

Not really.

odds that scum are iceman and sargealpha?

Why didn't you mention Flicker here?

wasn't that when iceman and sarge both had only one post?

if so refer to my comments about having only townreads and trying to explain that with a guess to why

[OkaPoka]

idk, guess didn't find them suspicious enough to scumread and throw my vote on a growing wagon

[OkaPoka]

are you scum

[OkaPoka]

Um.

I'm not talking about your vote. You said "flicker seems a bit defensive but nothing concrete yet", then your next post you were like, odds are the mafia team doesn't include Flicker. That doesn't make sense if you actually suspected Flicker.

guess its kinda inconsistent with my logic but i was still going for the idea that maybe the reason why i wasnt getting any solid scumreads was because scum weren't talking

[OkaPoka]

Spoiler: VCs

Votecount 1.02

Formerfish (3) -

OkaPoka, IcemanCh, TrinityNZ

IcemanCh (1) -

Formerfish

OkaPoka (1) -

stan1ey

stan1ey (1) -

SargeAlpha

SargeAlpha (1) -

nancy

Not Voting (2) -

Prologue, Flicker

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is paused at 10 days until all players have confirmed.

Votecount 1.03

Formerfish (3) -

OkaPoka, IcemanCh, TrinityNZ

IcemanCh (1) -

Formerfish

OkaPoka (1) -

stan1ey

stan1ey (1) -

SargeAlpha

SargeAlpha (1) -

nancy

Not Voting (2) -

Prologue, Flicker

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is paused at 10 days until all players have confirmed.

Prodding SargeAlpha.

All players have now confirmed. The deadline for Day 1 is now unpaused.

Votecount 1.04

Formerfish (3) -

OkaPoka, IcemanCh, TrinityNZ

Flicker (2) -

nancy, Stan1ey

IcemanCh (1) -

Formerfish

stan1ey (1) -

SargeAlpha

Not Voting (2) -

Eragon, Flicker

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

Votecount 1.05

Flicker (2) -

nancy, Stan1ey

OkaPoka (2) -

Flicker, Formerfish

IcemanCh (1) -

OkaPoka

Formerfish (1) -

TrinityNZ

stan1ey (1) -

SargeAlpha

Not Voting (2) -

Eragon, IcemanCh

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

Searching for a replacement for SargeAlpha.

Quick replaces SargeAlpha.

Votecount 1.06

Flicker (2) -

nancy, Stan1ey

OkaPoka (2) -

Flicker, Formerfish

Formerfish (1) -

TrinityNZ

stan1ey (1) -

Quick

TrinityNZ (1) -

OkaPoka

Not Voting (2) -

Eragon, IcemanCh

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

VOTE: Flicker

expand plz

[OkaPoka]

Spoiler: VCs

Votecount 1.02

Formerfish (3) -

OkaPoka, IcemanCh, TrinityNZ

IcemanCh (1) -

Formerfish

OkaPoka (1) -

stan1ey

stan1ey (1) -

SargeAlpha

SargeAlpha (1) -

nancy

Not Voting (2) -

Prologue, Flicker

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is paused at 10 days until all players have confirmed.

Votecount 1.03

Formerfish (3) -

OkaPoka, IcemanCh, TrinityNZ

IcemanCh (1) -

Formerfish

OkaPoka (1) -

stan1ey

stan1ey (1) -

SargeAlpha

SargeAlpha (1) -

nancy

Not Voting (2) -

Prologue, Flicker

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is paused at 10 days until all players have confirmed.

Prodding SargeAlpha.

All players have now confirmed. The deadline for Day 1 is now unpaused.

Votecount 1.04

Formerfish (3) -

OkaPoka, IcemanCh, TrinityNZ

Flicker (2) -

nancy, Stan1ey

IcemanCh (1) -

Formerfish

stan1ey (1) -

SargeAlpha

Not Voting (2) -

Eragon, Flicker

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

Votecount 1.05

Flicker (2) -

nancy, Stan1ey

OkaPoka (2) -

Flicker, Formerfish

IcemanCh (1) -

OkaPoka

Formerfish (1) -

TrinityNZ

stan1ey (1) -

SargeAlpha

Not Voting (2) -

Eragon, IcemanCh

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

Searching for a replacement for SargeAlpha.

Quick replaces SargeAlpha.

Votecount 1.06

Flicker (2) -

nancy, Stan1ey

OkaPoka (2) -

Flicker, Formerfish

Formerfish (1) -

TrinityNZ

stan1ey (1) -

Quick

TrinityNZ (1) -

OkaPoka

Not Voting (2) -

Eragon, IcemanCh

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

VOTE: Flicker

expand plz

also does this mean you are all caught up

[OkaPoka]

im not really seeing flicker scum rn

This is also a thing.

Um.

im stupid and i skimmed things so i was like flicker aint scum lol

[OkaPoka]

also started to scumread flicker more cuz peer pressure and my solid town were scumreading him

[OkaPoka]

guess im kinda a sheep

[OkaPoka]

also started to scumread flicker more cuz peer pressure and my solid town were scumreading him

sorry bout that

bahh

[OkaPoka]

yes

how are the results so far?

I'm getting the feeling they may be off but maybe you've done a retest so idk

I don't understand what this post is

uh ur just looking at an iso of me right? ff was talking to me about something so i made a shitty joke


dunno what to make of quick, the fact that he is making a vote based on VC alone is something i would do as town and then get promptly l-1'd and forced by town to do a srs reread

[OkaPoka]

yeah this is def a stunt i'd pulled only to be forced to reread the game later
question is will quick actually reread the game

@quick how much do you stick to your morals

[OkaPoka]

*doesn't mean im tring quick for this stunt but not hard scumreading for it either*

@nancy sorry i thought for some reason you meant quick lol

uh trinity's recent post don't seem to disprove my theory tho

[OkaPoka]

in league champ select will check periodically when im dead

[OkaPoka]

yeah this is def a stunt i'd pulled only to be forced to reread the game later
question is will quick actually reread the game

@quick how much do you stick to your morals

Not very well, unfortunately, because I have zero self-disipline.

well does that mean you will go back on your word saying you wont catch up if you become a viable lynch?

uh trinity's recent post don't seem to disprove my theory tho

Lmao this is certainly a wording

trinity's recent postings do not seem to disprove my theory that trinity is not being proactive and trying to actively engage with others*

[OkaPoka]

k just gotta make sure a lot of times what i say doesn't come out clear because i just type without editing half the time and i never proofread

[OkaPoka]

yeah this is def a stunt i'd pulled only to be forced to reread the game later
question is will quick actually reread the game

@quick how much do you stick to your morals

Not very well, unfortunately, because I have zero self-disipline.

well does that mean you will go back on your word saying you wont catch up if you become a viable lynch?

uh trinity's recent post don't seem to disprove my theory tho

Lmao this is certainly a wording

trinity's recent postings do not seem to disprove my theory that trinity is not being proactive and trying to actively engage with others*

OkaPoka, your trying hard to make me look bad says more about you than me. What do you think about that?

clarify?
i think that you made an interesting question but i really don't know what direction you are taking this

[OkaPoka]

i feel like you said something badass but i don't get it

[OkaPoka]

do you want me to evaluate my scumminess based on me scumreading you?

[OkaPoka]

Pretty sure I believe what I'm saying.

I'm throwing shade on you cuz I isod you.after abandoning Iceman case, think I found a decent scum chance here, hoping it would gain traction and yeah I guess I don't want to be lynched, but does anyone? As for the heat, I mean interacting directly.with others is the easiest way to develop reads on them for me

[OkaPoka]

I think I'm a bit lost at the moment. I've lost my town read on Nancy..... Please Nancy come back to town. I wanna believe. She seems to have just faded a bit and is just poking holes in everything. Not necessarily a bad thing but, doesn't seem like the way things started at first.

Trinity, Go take a look at some of FFs other games. His play this game seems exactly like his town play. I'll go looking for one of his scum games and compare though because I've only played with town!FF.

Quick, I'm not sure what to ask you..... Have your reads changed? Not sure if the answer is worth it.

Oka, I don't mean to restate this but, you really seem to be looking for the easiest lynches instead of looking for scum. I don't like it. Also, what do you think about quick?

FF, do you think that Oka is a better lynch then Quick and why?

b/c i figured others would burn quick at the stake and i don't really see how what quick is doing is alignment indicative, im a pretty lazy player until things get heated.

i mean yeah quick is playing anti town but i have yet to see hard scum motivation

quick should def do some isos at the very least

[OkaPoka]

yeah this is def a stunt i'd pulled only to be forced to reread the game later
question is will quick actually reread the game

@quick how much do you stick to your morals

Not very well, unfortunately, because I have zero self-disipline.

well does that mean you will go back on your word saying you wont catch up if you become a viable lynch?

uh trinity's recent post don't seem to disprove my theory tho

Lmao this is certainly a wording

trinity's recent postings do not seem to disprove my theory that trinity is not being proactive and trying to actively engage with others*

Nancy, in this posts oka said I’m not being proactive and I’m not trying to engage with others. I don’t think this is true.

you think you are being real proactive in engaging with others?
alright i guess ill do a bigish post
9 answering nancy's rqs questions
10 making a jokey comment
11 rvs vote
44 another rvs vote that put ff at l2 which will be clarified later
62 trinity responds to nancy about rvs stuff
63 "I liked it"
64 more rvs things
67 maybe proactive? just seems to be a side comment
69 clarifying 67 - prompted by nancy
71 clarifying 67 - prompted by nancy
100 prompted by nancy
101 want clarification from nancy on reads
117 explaining why she has no scumreads, promises to do more investigating later
118 thanking nancy for explaining
119 clarifying when prompted by nancy
121 answering my questions
264 explaining why she doesn't believe l-2 to be a big deal
288 catching up post
293 i made a post! trinity says im scummy for thinking she is scummy and im looking for excuses to vote her but i mean yeah that's mafia, asks why ff would hate me for voting me, i clarify later, i guess it's proactive? but she is also just engaging a person who is voting her so it's more reactive.
294 double post
297 time zones
299 reads, does something semi-proactive which is making her rvs vote her permanent your sus vote. decent post i like it
301 fluff
302 fluff
307 fluff
308 answering questions
382 showing solidarity for someone who might vote ff
387 "proactive" question after i claim that she hasn't been proactive
391 clarifying her question
393 meh
395 clarifying her position when prompted by nancy
399 clarifying her position when prompted by nancy

has very few moments of proactive town moments, most of her posts are either fluff or reacting to other questions which is i guess is kinda normal. but the only real proactive/unique thing she has done is mark Formerfish as possible scum, but she has yet to really follow up on that and engage with formerfish. maybe if she builds a more solid case against ff and responds to some of the points ff makes in response to nancy's case and takes a more active stance in challenging FF ill move off this but for now I see this as scum who is sitting back and not wanting to heavily engage with people so the spotlight isn't on her.

[OkaPoka]

me? hard on quick?

huh?

[OkaPoka]

people who haven't placed their votes down yet, why?

[OkaPoka]

is anyone else scumreading trinity? I feel a bit lonely. i know ice has made an indication.

[OkaPoka]

@flicker do you think one of quick/ff is scum?

[OkaPoka]

is anyone else scumreading trinity? I feel a bit lonely. i know ice has made an indication.

In isolation to this game the best I could do so far is neutral. So far my scale is below.


Town - nancy Formerfish
Lean Town - Ergon
Nuetral - Trinity Flicker Stanley
Lean Scum - Oka
Scum - Quick

why aren't you voting tho

[OkaPoka]

its a 180

[OkaPoka]

imo town wants to engage to develop reads on people while scum doesn't care about developing reads they just want to let others engage and argue while avoiding attention.

[OkaPoka]

eragon was asking about not being proactive being a scumtell

i think it is and that was my explanation as for why

[OkaPoka]

@formerfish your vote is still on me it appears, so talk to me, why am I scum still?

[OkaPoka]

you know im starting to doubt my eragon townread as well if that is where you are going

[OkaPoka]

though tbh im starting to doubt a lot of my solid townreads, i think nancy is my only solid townread left, everything else is shifting towards null or scum

[OkaPoka]

though tbh im starting to doubt a lot of my solid townreads, i think nancy is my only solid townread left, everything else is shifting towards null or scum

Um, why?

people aren't doing things im expecting them to do

[OkaPoka]

i guess ill do some examples
eragon - would be expecting more action from him trying to push any possible scumreads but he seems reserved and not willing to take in the action
stanley- he is being inactive so isn't weighing in on recent issues
flicker - this read is fluctuating based on how much i trust other people's reads and now that im doubting things im moving this towards nuller
ff - im expecting more dialogue from him attacking me or someone else, meta reads are dumb i know but the town!ff i know is more active in attacking his scumreads and harsher towards others

pedit: bada bing bada boom

[OkaPoka]

@nancy you dropping your scumread on flicker or is quick simply more scummy?

[OkaPoka]

@quick could you link me some games in which you replaced in and didn't go back and read?

[OkaPoka]

but you should iso me and ff because we had a convo on iceman already

[OkaPoka]

is the /s to the AMA or the being caught up

[OkaPoka]

/s usually indicates sarcasm since its hard to depict on the internet

AMA stands for Ask Me Anything

[OkaPoka]

@formerfish your vote is still on me it appears, so talk to me, why am I scum still?

for visibility

[OkaPoka]

@formerfish your vote is still on me it appears, so talk to me, why am I scum still?

for visibility

super visibility

[OkaPoka]

yeah we did the dance because you scumread me and i didnt trust you, we both ended up town and not being lynched so it worked out in the end

[OkaPoka]

yeah we did the dance because you scumread me and i didnt trust you, we both ended up town and not being lynched so it worked out in the end

And if that is what is destined to happen then youll be spared here as well. Its not like people are falling over themselves trying to follow me on my read, so your constant worry over my state of mind towards you might be able to take a rest for now.

its not about you reading me, its about me reading you

simply put, im growing suspicious of you and i want to interact w/ you to help further the development of my read on you

[OkaPoka]

im pretty sure quick is caught up

[OkaPoka]

are you all caught up now?

I don't really want to interrupt your stream of consciousness while you are catching up

[OkaPoka]

k gl ill keep reading what you post but i wont really comment until you finish

[OkaPoka]

@ff is your case still reliant on me being too aggro and that not fitting my meta?

[OkaPoka]

its a good quote you quoted tho, you should be convinced by now

[OkaPoka]

your case is wrong?

Point to me what's scummy and I'll rebut.

I guess lazy is a fair assessment of me, wouldn't say coaster tho, coasting would be sheeping onto nancy and going afk for the rest of the game.

And if you don't like my interactions with trinity, you do you i guess. I built my case on trinity and am voting her because i scumread her, I feel like she doesn't want to dirty her hands with lynches and as a result isn't engaging in a meaningful manner with people unless prompted to. 90% of her interactions are with nancy, who I'm pretty sure trinity isn't even trying to push. She isn't going out of her way to interact with others.

pedit: predicted and outsmarted also refer to the post you accidentally quoted

[OkaPoka]

@ff i guess what i want is a consolidated post on what you find scummy in me right now. is it still the aggro thing? is it still meta? what else?

[OkaPoka]

town transitioned into null transitioning into scummy because he seems passive too

[OkaPoka]

originalyl had eragon as town because he opened up by making a strong effort catching up and interacting with people

and i townread most people because it seemed like they were all willing to talk it out and interact
but now the doubt sets in, the worry, the panic, the fear, the hatred, the anger, the confusion?

[OkaPoka]

also people aren't doing normally town people are doing, i think i made a post on this with some examples if you want to iso

[OkaPoka]

because to an extent interactions can point to being town but then on a revistation, i noticed a pattern.

[OkaPoka]

oi

tell me how u got to that conclusion

[OkaPoka]

voting eragon

[OkaPoka]

i made a mega post on trinity, the point of that point is if we look deeper trinity is scum because she doesn't want to dirty her hands.

town wants to dirty their hands as that is the best way to develop reads and extract important info.

scum doesn't want to because they don't care about developing reads and revisiting ideas, they just want to coast by.

[OkaPoka]

[OkaPoka]

Talk to me about ff, write up a case with some evidence

[OkaPoka]

@flicker i think formerfish has a decent chance at being scum, but I'm townreading quick right now.

@trinity, okay, how about you point to specific pieces of evidence in which you think im scumymy? i still want you to interact with me.

@iceman the point is its how i interact with people, so point to some specific pieces of evidence, tell me why im scum so i can debunk.

[OkaPoka]

but then again i have better scumreads than formerfish being scum so actually i think rn the highest chance is both ff and quick being town

[OkaPoka]

Because quick ended up catching up and even when he was getting put at the stake by FF he still found time to interact with others

[OkaPoka]

u have a pretty good gut then

hey if you and then everyone else refuses to interact with me im not going to be developing good reads, it's just going to be like nancy who talks to me and i dont need developing on that read

[OkaPoka]

ok tell me ur read on the fish, go in depth if u have to, point to evidence if u want

@iceman whymafia has a good gut

quick is town because read earlier post

[OkaPoka]

pretty weak and still subject to change like all my other reads except for nancy

[OkaPoka]

say i said quick was my strongest townread

what would be your hypothetical post?

[OkaPoka]

no that's fair, i scumread people for playing similar to my scum games and townread people playing similar to my towngames

easier to empathize

[OkaPoka]

after some thought

i think two of the scum are in
iceman/trinity/eragon

[OkaPoka]

ill be back soon (30 mins to an hour maybe?)

[OkaPoka]

ok im back

talk time?

[OkaPoka]

@formerfish if you want you can do a deeper meta dive on my older games. also had a recent newbie scum game completed if you want to see my scum game. id characterize my meta game as pretty aggro, but im not that good at self reflection

[OkaPoka]

its a hedge and a flip flop i think?

im scumreading you because of silly reasons that i want to test but if i do ill get lynched for it

[OkaPoka]

although i can see why hedging is scummy, i do a lot of things that seem hedgy because i like to ramble and just type what im thinking, i also revise my reads a lot without needing a change happening in the game so as a result you get contradictory reads within short timespans.

[OkaPoka]

@formerfish what are your reads on trinity/iceman/eragon?

[OkaPoka]

@quick, current read on trinity/iceman/eragon?

[OkaPoka]

i think your both town and should redirect your focus on finding the scum in eragon/trinity/iceman trio

@nancy reads rn on eragon/trinity/iceman?

[OkaPoka]

@flicker reads rn on eragon/trinity/iceman?
@whymafia reads rn on eragon/trinity/iceman?

[OkaPoka]

@quick could you link me some posts that you feel debunks the theory that trinity isn't engaging with town or makes you feel that strongly about trinity town?

[OkaPoka]

what about trinity and iceman

[OkaPoka]

and ice?

[OkaPoka]

Talk to me about ff, write up a case with some evidence

OK, so I know this is going to make me look flaky, but looking for evidence has just made me confused! FF looks to me like apart from the interaction with Quick, he’s mainly spent time leaning on Oka and not really putting in the effort on everyone else. And I don’t think he’s tried hard to defend the votes on him. But I’ve had to admit that I do like that he’s after Oka as I think Oka could be scum, which would possibly, but not definitely, mean that FF isn’t.

My current thinking is:

Nancy - strong town. We all know why.
Oka - scum lean, mainly because of the weak case he was trying to make on me, and poor answers to questions others have asked.
Iceman - slight town lean, as I’ve liked his theory posts, although his vote on Quick seemed a bit forced, and not for the best of reasons. I don’t think not reading posts is AI.
Quick - slight scum lean. I initially didn’t think scum would be so blasé about the attack from IceMan. But some of his posts are scummy sounding, like ‘you are trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake’. As mafia in the last game I worried about making mistakes, but in this game I’m not worried so much as what sort of mistakes can I make? I mean, I can make silly mistakes where people might think I’m stupid, but I can’t think what type of think a ‘mistake’ I could make that would be really bad.
Flicker - slight scum lean, the unvote of Oka seems strange.
Eragon - town lean originally, as he came in with a hiss and a roar, but that has tapered off, so null at the moment.
Why Mafia - town lean. I’m linking his posts. He’s put in a lot of effort really quickly and looks like he’s making an effort to understand the game, and made some good cases.
FF - was my strongest scum lean, but I’m backing off that, as noted above.

UNVOTE: FormerFish

what are these poor answers to other questions?

[OkaPoka]

no im asking you what are the poor answers that i have made that you seem to dislike

[OkaPoka]

but wow thats a bit defensive

[OkaPoka]

Talk to me about ff, write up a case with some evidence

OK, so I know this is going to make me look flaky, but looking for evidence has just made me confused! FF looks to me like apart from the interaction with Quick, he’s mainly spent time leaning on Oka and not really putting in the effort on everyone else. And I don’t think he’s tried hard to defend the votes on him. But I’ve had to admit that I do like that he’s after Oka as I think Oka could be scum, which would possibly, but not definitely, mean that FF isn’t.

My current thinking is:

Nancy - strong town. We all know why.

Oka - scum lean, mainly because of the weak case he was trying to make on me, and

poor answers to questions others have asked.

Iceman - slight town lean, as I’ve liked his theory posts, although his vote on Quick seemed a bit forced, and not for the best of reasons. I don’t think not reading posts is AI.
Quick - slight scum lean. I initially didn’t think scum would be so blasé about the attack from IceMan. But some of his posts are scummy sounding, like ‘you are trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake’. As mafia in the last game I worried about making mistakes, but in this game I’m not worried so much as what sort of mistakes can I make? I mean, I can make silly mistakes where people might think I’m stupid, but I can’t think what type of think a ‘mistake’ I could make that would be really bad.
Flicker - slight scum lean, the unvote of Oka seems strange.
Eragon - town lean originally, as he came in with a hiss and a roar, but that has tapered off, so null at the moment.
Why Mafia - town lean. I’m linking his posts. He’s put in a lot of effort really quickly and looks like he’s making an effort to understand the game, and made some good cases.
FF - was my strongest scum lean, but I’m backing off that, as noted above.

UNVOTE: FormerFish

what are these poor answers to other questions?

You can call these poor answers if you want, but it’s my best shot, so take it or leave it. Trying to make me look bad isn’t working for you Oka. Town is on to you.

[OkaPoka]

@nancy opinion on defensive tells?

[OkaPoka]

some people, including myself to an extent, feel that being overly defensive is indicative of scum alignment

[OkaPoka]

meh i kinda left that idea, they are both tr's for me

i think i explained quick? if not assume i said something really compelling and quote things about interactions

as for FF im pretty sure he is town because interactions and the fact that he left my wagon for a pretty low potential wagon but I have still have a running theory on reading him that is going to need more time to resolve itself

i guess i dont really make sense, at that time i was thinking ff had a good chance of being scum, then i thought to myself there are more scummy people ahead of him so meh probably not

[OkaPoka]

wow! contradiction! lets lynch her now

@nancy do you think there is a strong chance that one of ff/me is scum?

[OkaPoka]

getting a townread on me is not important as long as there is a better lynch today

yeah my reads are changing very erratically but thats the result of lack of hard conviction in a lot of them + me constantly revisiting my reads and refining them

[OkaPoka]

huh ok

I would disagree on the obv town being town priority tho. Catching mafia should imo be number one priority.

[OkaPoka]

no im asking you what are the poor answers that i have made that you seem to dislike

Sorry, I got that wrong! I’m not disagreeing that I’m not defensive against you though

k can i have those bad responses though?

some people, including myself to an extent, feel that being overly defensive is indicative of scum alignment

Would it not be fair to say that town could be defensive too, perhaps if they’re feeling that their words are deliberately being twisted or they’re being made to look bad by scum trying to get a mislynch?

sure to an extent

wow! contradiction! lets lynch her now

@nancy do you think there is a strong chance that one of ff/me is scum?

Oka, which post were you referring to here?

its a joke!

[OkaPoka]

huh ok

I would disagree on the obv town being town priority tho. Catching mafia should imo be number one priority.

It really shouldn't and I don't have the energy to explain why coherently or in much detail right now. Maybe another day.

Essentially, though, you should be looking at the game from the following perspective: 8 slots in the game whose alignment you don't know, each with a 75% chance of being town, 3 mislynches before mafia overrun the town. That means if you correctly lock in townreads on 5 slots (and there's only a baseline 25% chance that you can be wrong on it in the first place), you can close your eyes lynch every other slot in the game and you'll win as town.

Now imagine you just forego townreads and only focus on scumreads. What do you do when you reach 5p LyLo with no townreads and 2 mafia alive? You curl up in a ball and cry, that's what. Because if you have no townreads you have no basis from which to solve the game, you have no one who to talk to who you can trust, and it's going to be incredibly easy for the mafia team to manipulate you into a mislynch.

sorry isn't the point on scumhunt focused play so you don't end up in lylo having mislynched a bunch of people with 2 mafia alive?

i could see the advantage of townhunt and then PoE, but then I feel like there would be a dependency on investigative roles to solve.

[OkaPoka]

TRINITY! I need some quotes in which you think I've made some bad responses to some questions posed by others that you find so horrible. I also want you to go in detail why my case on you is weak.

[OkaPoka]

def something is off. rather than consolidating into a few wagons we are splitting apart as time progresses

[OkaPoka]

Oka continues to bewilder me. Bah

what bewilders you?

[OkaPoka]

Hey Quick, could you give me a consolidated and updated post on what makes you feel so strongly about FF with quotes and explanation and stuff? I know its a lot to ask but I'm doing some revisiting of reads and want to see what you think.

[OkaPoka]

@nancy opinion on defensive tells?

Is this a legit question? Are you asking nancy the player or nancy the IC?

Yes and this is directed towards nancy the player.

as for FF im pretty sure he is town because interactions and the fact that he left my wagon for a pretty low potential wagon but I have still have a running theory on reading him that is going to need more time to resolve itself

i guess i dont really make sense, at that time i was thinking ff had a good chance of being scum, then i thought to myself there are more scummy people ahead of him so meh probably not

You had mentioned something that either was playing out or could play out that would have helped you figure out my alignment. Care to talk about that more?

It is still a work in progress.

[OkaPoka]

I did say I thought you and formerfish was likely a TvT, but I have running theories that I'm not going to just reveal because nothing is solidified.

[OkaPoka]

I did say I thought you and formerfish was likely a TvT, but I have running theories that I'm not going to just reveal because nothing is solidified.

This response was directed towards Quick in case someone wants to iso me later.

[OkaPoka]

TRINITY! I need some quotes in which you think I've made some bad responses to some questions posed by others that you find so horrible. I also want you to go in detail why my case on you is weak.

in case this gets ignored, @TRINITY

I will do some clarification, in this post:

Talk to me about ff, write up a case with some evidence

OK, so I know this is going to make me look flaky, but looking for evidence has just made me confused! FF looks to me like apart from the interaction with Quick, he’s mainly spent time leaning on Oka and not really putting in the effort on everyone else. And I don’t think he’s tried hard to defend the votes on him. But I’ve had to admit that I do like that he’s after Oka as I think Oka could be scum, which would possibly, but not definitely, mean that FF isn’t.

My current thinking is:

Nancy - strong town. We all know why.
Oka - scum lean, mainly because of the weak case he was trying to make on me, and poor answers to questions others have asked.
Iceman - slight town lean, as I’ve liked his theory posts, although his vote on Quick seemed a bit forced, and not for the best of reasons. I don’t think not reading posts is AI.
Quick - slight scum lean. I initially didn’t think scum would be so blasé about the attack from IceMan. But some of his posts are scummy sounding, like ‘you are trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake’. As mafia in the last game I worried about making mistakes, but in this game I’m not worried so much as what sort of mistakes can I make? I mean, I can make silly mistakes where people might think I’m stupid, but I can’t think what type of think a ‘mistake’ I could make that would be really bad.
Flicker - slight scum lean, the unvote of Oka seems strange.
Eragon - town lean originally, as he came in with a hiss and a roar, but that has tapered off, so null at the moment.
Why Mafia - town lean. I’m linking his posts. He’s put in a lot of effort really quickly and looks like he’s making an effort to understand the game, and made some good cases.
FF - was my strongest scum lean, but I’m backing off that, as noted above.

UNVOTE: FormerFish

You mark me as a scum lean because of first I have an alleged weak case against you and I have also responded poorly to questions other people have posed.
So what I want is for you to first, explain why you believe that my case is terrible and scummy.
I also want you, more importantly, to quote some of these poor responses I have made in response to other questions and I want you to explain why each of these poor answers are so garbage and thus scummy.

[OkaPoka]

I really don't understand what is so scummy/controversial behind the idea that it doesn't really matter if you are scumread a bit as long as you can find a better lynch.

[OkaPoka]

getting a townread on me is not important as long as there is a better lynch today

God I read this post again and I'm like.

This is, to a T, 100%, exactly what scum mindset looks like.

All scum need each dayphase is to dodge the lynch, be a little more town than someone else, make someone else look scummier than they are.

I just don't know whether OkaPoka is actually scum for saying it.

Like, can he really be having that thought as town here? Can he honestly think that it's not important for me or anyone else to get a townread on him?

It's like, kind of inherent to our condition as town to want to be townread. We don't like people thinking we're mafia, getting our alignment wrong. It feels bad. But Oka just... doesn't care?

This is like. Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf type territory, which is all through his ISO, not just this post. And at a certain point I think like... well, maybe he is actually just a wolf?

Ugh.

I would actually have to completely disagree with this being a scum mindset, because this isn't how I would play scum. I just recently played a newbie-scum game if you want to meta dive me and verify this.
Scum wants to dodge lynches yes that is true, but scum also aren't playing to merely just nearly avoid being the most scummy because that is simply a risk not worth taking. People in this game are rarely consistent and they are also rarely completely rational players, thus in order to dodge a lynch, the primary goal of scum would be not to appear a bit more townie, but the most townie because otherwise the swing of town might still end up with a lynch on a null!OkaPoka.

Yeah it is inherent as town to want to be townread, but it isn't nor should it be the primary concern of town to be the towniest of them all. That's scum wincon, scum doesn't need lynches to win, they just need to make sure town either mislynches, or fails to lynch and they can solve the game based on NK's. Meanwhile town has to make sure finding scum is their primary concern because ultimately without successful lynches, town loses every time. We are also playing a semi-openish setup that does not give a guarantee on investigative roles to help sole the game, nor do we have town killing roles to allow town to not need lynches to win.

In an extreme vacuum, a town that has their primary concern in making the appearance of being townie will lose every game. There needs to be at least some people who are making their whole effort hunting scum because we can't just rely on PRs to win this game for us. In a game in which town has their primary concern of being townie, they will lose because scum are also doing the same, and it makes the job of scumhunting much more difficult because to an extent, everyone is acting rather than being themselves. When everyone is composed and trying to act like town, they are acting rather than trying to win, and then the game will devolve into who can be the best actor.

Literally nobody wants to be scumread in this game, and it's not like I don't care about being scumread, it's just not worth as much time to act town when I could be selfishly developing reads on others and trying to figure things out.

The difference between scum!Oka and town!Oka is town!Oka is being genuine while scum!Oka wants to come across as genuine. I can see why you want to help me out by telling me why I should try and make an effort to appear more townie, but I think that can ultimately be somewhat detrimental advice as town shouldn't concern themselves with acting town. I find it more difficult as scum to develop genuine reads not only because I know everyone's alignment and I have ulterior motives, but because while I am in the act of appearing town, I have to tone down the aggressiveness in developing my reads and challenging other people's ideas.

I think it is a given that everyone reacts more hostile-y to people who scumread them and are pushing them, thus then the optimal play if your end goal is to be townie is to never push, never interact on a deeper level, and never challenge other people's reads. By caring so much about other people's reads on you, what ends up happening is you simply ask superficial questions and lend support to whoever you want to suck up to. You let other people game solve for you.

Okay and there is a point behind all of this, it's not just to respond to nancy's assertions.
I think this is exactly what Trinity is doing, she is being superficial and wants to give off a vibe of genuine townieness.
I don't think I need to quote examples, if you want them I will, but a lot of her posts feel like they won't go anywhere. She is overly nice with people, which could just be her personality, but what I fear is she is trying to play nice to get townread. She is rubbing shoulders with nancy(the obvtown player) a lot, and to an extent it's useless. Let's examine the game from her perspective.

Most people are marking nancy as town, she is too, obvious by 671 if you want an example, so why does she keep interacting with nancy so much? There is no need to develop reads on people you so solidly read town when you have others in which you have giant question marks over. Unless you want to inflate your post count, unless you don't want to give offense to others by hinting that you may be hostile to them, unless you don't actually care about developing genuine reads, you just want the obv town to like you and not lynch you.

Look at trinity's questions she is posing and attempting to make an attempt at interacting with others, I mean does she have a larger path with these questions? Does she have a greater point she wants to prove or expand on? I am getting the vibe that most of her questions directed towards people don't really have much direction to go, they serve no real purpose other than to make herself seem more townie, because that is her primary concern as scum.

Look all the posts Trinity has made, maybe one or two posts have some genuine direction in which they can go and she can develop upon. If we are being generous.
But most of these posts are either her trying to be friendly, or her trying to clarify herself and say look at me I am so townie XOXO.
I mean does trinity even have a desire to solve this game? I'm getting the feeling the answer to that is no.
We'll see though.

[OkaPoka]

@everyone if you aren't scumreading trinity explain to me why, I'll try respond.

[OkaPoka]

@iceman read on trinity?

[OkaPoka]

Spoiler:

getting a townread on me is not important as long as there is a better lynch today

God I read this post again and I'm like.

This is, to a T, 100%, exactly what scum mindset looks like.

All scum need each dayphase is to dodge the lynch, be a little more town than someone else, make someone else look scummier than they are.

I just don't know whether OkaPoka is actually scum for saying it.

Like, can he really be having that thought as town here? Can he honestly think that it's not important for me or anyone else to get a townread on him?

It's like, kind of inherent to our condition as town to want to be townread. We don't like people thinking we're mafia, getting our alignment wrong. It feels bad. But Oka just... doesn't care?

This is like. Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf type territory, which is all through his ISO, not just this post. And at a certain point I think like... well, maybe he is actually just a wolf?

Ugh.

I would actually have to completely disagree with this being a scum mindset, because this isn't how I would play scum. I just recently played a newbie-scum game if you want to meta dive me and verify this.
Scum wants to dodge lynches yes that is true, but scum also aren't playing to merely just nearly avoid being the most scummy because that is simply a risk not worth taking. People in this game are rarely consistent and they are also rarely completely rational players, thus in order to dodge a lynch, the primary goal of scum would be not to appear a bit more townie, but the most townie because otherwise the swing of town might still end up with a lynch on a null!OkaPoka.

Yeah it is inherent as town to want to be townread, but it isn't nor should it be the primary concern of town to be the towniest of them all. That's scum wincon, scum doesn't need lynches to win, they just need to make sure town either mislynches, or fails to lynch and they can solve the game based on NK's. Meanwhile town has to make sure finding scum is their primary concern because ultimately without successful lynches, town loses every time. We are also playing a semi-openish setup that does not give a guarantee on investigative roles to help sole the game, nor do we have town killing roles to allow town to not need lynches to win.

In an extreme vacuum, a town that has their primary concern in making the appearance of being townie will lose every game. There needs to be at least some people who are making their whole effort hunting scum because we can't just rely on PRs to win this game for us. In a game in which town has their primary concern of being townie, they will lose because scum are also doing the same, and it makes the job of scumhunting much more difficult because to an extent, everyone is acting rather than being themselves. When everyone is composed and trying to act like town, they are acting rather than trying to win, and then the game will devolve into who can be the best actor.

Literally nobody wants to be scumread in this game, and it's not like I don't care about being scumread, it's just not worth as much time to act town when I could be selfishly developing reads on others and trying to figure things out.

The difference between scum!Oka and town!Oka is town!Oka is being genuine while scum!Oka wants to come across as genuine. I can see why you want to help me out by telling me why I should try and make an effort to appear more townie, but I think that can ultimately be somewhat detrimental advice as town shouldn't concern themselves with acting town. I find it more difficult as scum to develop genuine reads not only because I know everyone's alignment and I have ulterior motives, but because while I am in the act of appearing town, I have to tone down the aggressiveness in developing my reads and challenging other people's ideas.

I think it is a given that everyone reacts more hostile-y to people who scumread them and are pushing them, thus then the optimal play if your end goal is to be townie is to never push, never interact on a deeper level, and never challenge other people's reads. By caring so much about other people's reads on you, what ends up happening is you simply ask superficial questions and lend support to whoever you want to suck up to. You let other people game solve for you.

Okay and there is a point behind all of this, it's not just to respond to nancy's assertions.
I think this is exactly what Trinity is doing, she is being superficial and wants to give off a vibe of genuine townieness.
I don't think I need to quote examples, if you want them I will, but a lot of her posts feel like they won't go anywhere. She is overly nice with people, which could just be her personality, but what I fear is she is trying to play nice to get townread. She is rubbing shoulders with nancy(the obvtown player) a lot, and to an extent it's useless. Let's examine the game from her perspective.

Most people are marking nancy as town, she is too, obvious by 671 if you want an example, so why does she keep interacting with nancy so much? There is no need to develop reads on people you so solidly read town when you have others in which you have giant question marks over. Unless you want to inflate your post count, unless you don't want to give offense to others by hinting that you may be hostile to them, unless you don't actually care about developing genuine reads, you just want the obv town to like you and not lynch you.

Look at trinity's questions she is posing and attempting to make an attempt at interacting with others, I mean does she have a larger path with these questions? Does she have a greater point she wants to prove or expand on? I am getting the vibe that most of her questions directed towards people don't really have much direction to go, they serve no real purpose other than to make herself seem more townie, because that is her primary concern as scum.

Look all the posts Trinity has made, maybe one or two posts have some genuine direction in which they can go and she can develop upon. If we are being generous.
But most of these posts are either her trying to be friendly, or her trying to clarify herself and say look at me I am so townie XOXO.
I mean does trinity even have a desire to solve this game? I'm getting the feeling the answer to that is no.
We'll see though.

Holy shit.

Okay so, first of all, you misunderstood what I meant by clearing yourself. I wasn't saying you should be "acting town". Probably the most important way that town clears themselves is by scumhunting. But if the way that you're scumhunting makes no sense and you have no real process, then no matter how much scumhunting you do, it's all going to be indistinguishable from scum faking scumhunting.

I'll do a reread of Trinity.

My point about trinity still stands though.

[OkaPoka]

Meta reads on new players with a sample size of 1 or 2 is dumb.

People, especially newer players who are still adjusting, are extremely prone to change especially in face of such a powerful defeat.

If you want to look at my first game, I acted a lot differently than I do now.

[OkaPoka]

Scum don't need lynches to win, town does.

[OkaPoka]

@iceman read on trinity?

I go back and forth. It's difficult cause I've played with her in my last game so it's kind of tainted you know.

In isolation to this game I would have serious concerns about her being scum. She snagged on to FF as scum and tunneled him without giving anyone a real reason as to why. It's like she just picked someone and went with it.

However, it would be super gutsy for a scum to go after someone so active and in the mix of things. It would be a super difficult mislynch. There's way easier lynches.

Also, bringing the other game experience into it and I would say this is probably her town play. If it's not she's being coached really well from behind the scenes.

Does that make sense?

Basically, I'm stuck with a slight town read on Trinity and I'm not sure how to see it as more town or less town at the moment.

Is it gutsy though? She kinda voiced her opinion, and solidified her vote supporting anyone else who did the same.

But when pressed for evidence she said she did an iso and decided FF was town.

It would be gutsy if she produced evidence and went ham at FF but she didn't, she kinda skated by with a scumread.

[OkaPoka]

I'm saying its not gutsy to say "you are scum!" and then not push it or really do anything much about it.

[OkaPoka]

Except my point is Trinity's participation is superficial and ultimately fake.

[OkaPoka]

Look at her posts. Bunch of them are compliments and supporting others, bunch of them are clarification about herself, and her questions seem to have no possible development for reads.

[OkaPoka]

No please just go ahead and iso her and then take note on what posts possibly could help her develop her reads vs posts that don't actually need to exist.

[OkaPoka]

Sure she can change her mind but it doesn't change the fact that what she did with Formerfish wasn't gutsy thus shouldn't be a reason to townread her.

[OkaPoka]

No I'm saying in a technical way the pressure is not on scum to lynch, its on town.

If you played a game in which lynches never happened, scum wins because nightkills and elimination.

Scum don't need lynches to happen because lynches and thus the flip is the most beneficial tool for town. Beyond PRs, lynches provide confirmation in alignment and give the town the tool to do post-lynch analysis on people. Without lynches and the flip, town cannot more deeply analyze how and why the wagon formed, who is merely there for the bandwagon, who is bussing, who is trying to detract attention, who is being honest, and who is being dishonest.

I mean if think about it, the reason why we always lynch day 1 when technically there is no information is to create some hard facts we can go by. Otherwise it would be a game of wifom if we wanted to simply analyze nk's. scum have no real pressure to lynch because lynches are not part of a scum wincon, scum can dispose of town in two ways while town has only one way.

[OkaPoka]

@eragon examine trinity for me please
@nancy soooo, opinion on trinity?

[OkaPoka]

I can't be sure but its my theory that she is scum. If you have a better idea and a better case I'll join you eventually.

[OkaPoka]

And I think your flicker case is bad ngl. It's a pressure vote but I'm not seeing a solid indication of a scumread.


@nancy who are you scumreading?

[OkaPoka]

and in a way flicker isn't playing to your expectations

all our cases have loopholes because its day 1

[OkaPoka]

You are voting flicker, I don't think its a leap to assume you are at least leaning scum on flicker.

I'm not going to ignore things that might point to trinity!town, but I'm also not going to stand here and ignore things that make trinity scum.

[OkaPoka]

Or was, anyway.

are you going to vote me soon?

people normally don't make these types of post and then mellow out.

[OkaPoka]

I don't know.

[OkaPoka]

Have you looked into anyone but Trinity recently?

I haven't done an iso dive on anyone else but trinity, I've just been reading the thread and waiting to see if anything catches my attention.

[OkaPoka]

@nancy are you going to build a case?

[OkaPoka]

I've played with Eragon and I can verify he is very stingy with his vote.

[OkaPoka]

But in that game he had a lot of townreads so it isn't the same scenario here

[OkaPoka]

nancy, can you link me some of your scum games? Preferably newbie games/games that have a serious setup (no u-picks/role madness)

[OkaPoka]

I've played with Eragon and I can verify he is very stingy with his vote.

Where'd you play with him?

previous game donner party

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=76645

[OkaPoka]

I won't lie, my only hesitation in wagoning Eragon is because he is on V/LA.

[OkaPoka]

Eragon, any scum games on this site?

[OkaPoka]

I won't lie, my only hesitation in wagoning Eragon is because he is on V/LA.

Um? You just said you didn't think it was alignment indicative for him to not being voting anywhere?

Yes?

But at this moment I am going to derail any Eragon wagon that gains steam if this guy won't be able to respond.

[OkaPoka]

We can sort out Eragon later, there are more important people to sort at the moment imo.

[OkaPoka]

Fuck, I would expect trinity to double down as scum. Maybe she is just plays this way.

@nancy do you have any stronger scumreads? Looks like you are retreating away from your scumreads.

[OkaPoka]

because the only time she interacts with people on a deeper level is when she gets accused of scum.

but if she backs off now, idk, maybe she is just not an aggressive player in general

[OkaPoka]

im excited that you voted me tho

let's 1v1

ill case you up

[OkaPoka]

Yeah, I've just been putting off talking about it because I don't feel as confident as I would like to. Here, I'll post part of what I wrote in my IC topic.


I've kind of come around to an Oka scumread at this point. I feel like I both love and hate his play this game. Regardless of his alignment, his posting is so recklessly majestic that it's hard not to appreciate it. I just kind of struggle more and more to see him as town here.

His reads early in the game feel so so fake, it feels like he's going through the motions and just kind of abruptly lands at 3-4 townreads and it's like, I just don't believe that he's done the work to get those reads or genuinely has them. I feel like that's kind of the story of his play here this game. He feels more like a papier-maché of a townie than an actual townie.

The only things kind of pulling me back on this read I think are his level of engagement and the way he's positioned himself on Trinity, but like, on the flip side of that, he's not really seeming to go anywhere with anything, and he's been tunneled on Trinity for ~30 pages now and every time she's addressed his concerns he's just found new reasons to scumread her, and that doesn't feel real to me.

I think, ultimately, there are too moments at this point where he has done something that has felt incredibly fake for me to touch him with even a hint of a townread, and short of getting a scumflip and clearing him via spew or antialignments I just can't see myself believing that he's town.

Like, if I put this slot aside today then I would basically have to be donning a mask and playing a part in a farce, just hoping that maybe maybe maybe he could clear himself somewhere down the line, and when I don't have any scumreads that I feel super strongly about I don't think that's a super realistic option.

Vote: OkaPoka

nancy ~ )) - Flicker - Trinity -- Iceman - )) ------ Quick, FF % )) > -- Eragon ---- WhyMafia )) -------- OkaPoka )) ~


Why would you expect her to double down as scum? It seems to me like your whole basis for scumreading her is that she's milquetoast, so I don't really get how you would expect that from her at all.

I'm going to respond to this with some attempts on analysis and hopefully not summary.

1) Let's be real here, you were not really coming around to an Oka scumread, you've been scumreading me since the beginning of this game essentially.
Evidence:

What are Pregame Readscales lmao

nancy ~ )) ---- )) ---- stan - FF, Trinity - [Iceman, Eragon] % )) - > SA, OkaPoka - Flicker )) ~

This was extremely early into the game you and you had me as one of the scummier players.

Maybe you in the middle there had a bit of doubt in your scumread, but you've been struggling to townread me since the start.

2) Yeah I can see why some might find my reads so fake, they have an inconsistent progression. But I've said before that my reads are extremely bouncy because its a result of my play. But sure, you can still use gut and stuff to say that my bouncy reads are fake. But I'll turn this on you, why have you been so insistent on using "genuine" as a tell/read for towniness? When I point to why I think people are town/scum, my reasoning usually comes down to motivation reads, a lot of yours comes down to X feels genuine. Also your read on Flicker unvoting me doesn't work as town motivation because it was before Trinity and Iceman join the wagon, and formerfish at that time was leaning into quick. So I guess my question to you is, can you give us reads solely based on using motivation rather than the words "genuine response" "gut feeling" "tonally XYZ" and stuff like that?

3) Trinity hasn't addressed my concerns. She has continued to lack meaningful engagement with anyone, which is my primary concern still. I'm not really finding new reasons to scumread her, I'm building my case based on the one thing.

4) Again with the tone/feeling reads. To me, that is a lazy read. It doesn't give anyone else anything to work off of, it blocks everyone else from your thought process and nobody is able to criticize you. It's impossible to really find logical inconsistencies within a tone read because it is really just void of logic. If I were playing scum, these types of reads are the go to reads when I'm stuck on giving genuine reads because I can't get attacked for it.

pedit: oh boi part 2 is coming with these responses

[OkaPoka]

alright imma just claim vt because i might get lynched or lolhammered

also im going to put it out there, you guys need to do a meta dive on nancy. she can play competent scum and you should all start questioning nancy's

posting this is def going to get me lynched, but I think nancy has been the overlooked player this game. something just isn't right wit her. She has been too composed and too reliant on using emotional reads, personally I feel emotional reads are an easy way out of posting logical reads and lets be honest, nancy is fully capable of doing strong, logical, and emotionless reads.

[OkaPoka]

Luckily though, we have enough experienced and vocal players this game to counterract and the possibility of nancy!scum but I'm just saying be cautious.

nancy shouldn't be the lynch today however, I'm not saying she is scum, I'm saying that if you look at her meta, marking her conf town is just simply dangerous, she can play scum extremely well

response to nancy post inc

[OkaPoka]

and if nancy comes up scum, trinity is probs the partner

in nancy's scum pt, she explains how charisma is the most important trait to have for scum

and she hates bussing

i think trinity's is starting to play these cards up

now that i've said these things the well is going to dirty, but i worry nobody else is going to go back and do a look so I'm saying it now and these reads from now on are officially null. They will only work before this post