Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[Quick]

I'll be fairly active.

I have experience, lots.

I highly prefer playing as Town because as opposed to some of the other people in this game, I like using my brain.

AMA.

[Quick]

Spoiler: VCs

Votecount 1.02

Formerfish (3) -

OkaPoka, IcemanCh, TrinityNZ

IcemanCh (1) -

Formerfish

OkaPoka (1) -

stan1ey

stan1ey (1) -

SargeAlpha

SargeAlpha (1) -

nancy

Not Voting (2) -

Prologue, Flicker

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is paused at 10 days until all players have confirmed.

Votecount 1.03

Formerfish (3) -

OkaPoka, IcemanCh, TrinityNZ

IcemanCh (1) -

Formerfish

OkaPoka (1) -

stan1ey

stan1ey (1) -

SargeAlpha

SargeAlpha (1) -

nancy

Not Voting (2) -

Prologue, Flicker

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is paused at 10 days until all players have confirmed.

Prodding SargeAlpha.

All players have now confirmed. The deadline for Day 1 is now unpaused.

Votecount 1.04

Formerfish (3) -

OkaPoka, IcemanCh, TrinityNZ

Flicker (2) -

nancy, Stan1ey

IcemanCh (1) -

Formerfish

stan1ey (1) -

SargeAlpha

Not Voting (2) -

Eragon, Flicker

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

Votecount 1.05

Flicker (2) -

nancy, Stan1ey

OkaPoka (2) -

Flicker, Formerfish

IcemanCh (1) -

OkaPoka

Formerfish (1) -

TrinityNZ

stan1ey (1) -

SargeAlpha

Not Voting (2) -

Eragon, IcemanCh

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

Searching for a replacement for SargeAlpha.

Quick replaces SargeAlpha.

Votecount 1.06

Flicker (2) -

nancy, Stan1ey

OkaPoka (2) -

Flicker, Formerfish

Formerfish (1) -

TrinityNZ

stan1ey (1) -

Quick

TrinityNZ (1) -

OkaPoka

Not Voting (2) -

Eragon, IcemanCh

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

VOTE: Flicker

[Quick]

are you scum

No, I'm Town.

[Quick]

The votes moved from FF to Flicker and who FF and Flicker are voting for.

FF might have gotten caught early and then talked his way out of things. That said, I have known him to be lynchbait, but a really good player, so I have a Null read on that dynamic of the game, however, because both Flicker and FF are voting the same person who seems to have produced a wagon out of nowhere seems pretty suspect to me.

Also, Nacy's post on this page seem to have Town tone and I know Nancy to be a pretty good Town player and they are voting for Flicker. I need to look into Stan1ey's progression and vote on Flicker more, but that is where I am at atm.

[Quick]

The votes moved from FF to Flicker and who FF and Flicker are voting for.

FF might have gotten caught early and then talked his way out of things. That said, I have known him to be lynchbait, but a really good player, so I have a Null read on that dynamic of the game, however, because both Flicker and FF are voting the same person who seems to have produced a wagon out of nowhere seems pretty suspect to me.

Also, Nacy's post on this page seem to have Town tone and I know Nancy to be a pretty good Town player and they are voting for Flicker. I need to look into Stan1ey's progression and vote on Flicker more, but that is where I am at atm.

What are Tone Reads lmao

Pls explain the FF talking his way out of things thing, thank

Stuff like saying lmao for no Scum motive would be a Town tone read.

I haven't read the thread, just going based on the VCs alone at this point.

[Quick]

That said, I have known him to be lynchbait, but a really good player, so I have a Null read on that dynamic of the game, however, because both Flicker and FF are voting the same person who seems to have produced a wagon out of nowhere seems pretty suspect to me.

How is this a sentence lmao

What do you mean? How is it NOT a sentence?

[Quick]

Basically I think there's a good chance of Scum in FF and Flicker, don't know why that is difficult to understand.

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Surreptitious, ring a bell?

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https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p9026807

Similar avatar. You were the guy I played with in the PyP game. Sorry, mixed you up with someone else.

[Quick]

Quick, read game pls thx

Don't really want to. I usually don't even replace into games with 200+ posts, so you're lucky to have me as it is.

[Quick]

Quick, read game pls thx

Don't really want to. I usually don't even replace into games with 200+ posts, so you're lucky to have me as it is.

We can lynch this too.

Try it. I'm Town this game so I'm not getting lynched.

[Quick]

Quick, read game pls thx

Don't really want to. I usually don't even replace into games with 200+ posts, so you're lucky to have me as it is.

You're... joking... right?

Halfway joking, yeah.

[Quick]

yeah this is def a stunt i'd pulled only to be forced to reread the game later
question is will quick actually reread the game

@quick how much do you stick to your morals

Not very well, unfortunately, because I have zero self-disipline.

[Quick]

Quick, read game pls thx

Don't really want to. I usually don't even replace into games with 200+ posts, so you're lucky to have me as it is.

You're... joking... right?

Halfway joking, yeah.

Please add the other half of the way, thank

The serious part is that I don't usually replace into games with more than 200 posts.

Quick, read game pls thx

Don't really want to. I usually don't even replace into games with 200+ posts, so you're lucky to have me as it is.

We can lynch this too.

Try it. I'm Town this game so I'm not getting lynched.

Nah, im too busy trying to get Oka lynched, you should come over there with me. Or maybe retract what you said about me as a player since you mixed me up with someone else. Very ironic, or maybe not that song really fucked things up for me, that the topic you link to your next post apologizes for not knowing names. Its fitting.

I thought that would be implied that since I mixed you up with someone that that read is forgone as it is associated with the wrong person, but still holds it's weight in terms of what's likely regarding your slot. Just makes the reads less concrete and more open to interpretation.

[Quick]

But without reading the game you lack the context that would lend any sort of creadence to what you have to say. Looking at vote counts from early day 1 isn't going to tell much, and when you don't know why people voted for who they did you can't begin to understand the game state as is.

Yeah, that's true, but this is not the only game I am involved in and I have other stuff going on so I don't have time to read everything atm.

[Quick]

Soo....... I feel like OKa is a bad or scum. Not sure which.

I also think Trinity is town. She's new and clunky but, I've played a few games with her and nothing seems scummy so far. I've seen her play scum and.... well you'd know.

I really want to vote quick and get quick lynched. To me only scum would come in and throw up their hands and say I'm not reading anything. Here's a vote count. Here's my reads. Don't worry those cause my reads are garbage because I didn't actually read anything. If town came in and refused to read the game they wouldn't then turn around and give reads.

I also think Oka is pushing mis-lynches. Trying to snag the easiest ones. Weird that he's not jumping on Quick as that seems the easiest to me at the moment.

SRing me because I am not caught up is a horrible reason to SR someone. Like, seriously?

I think I'm a bit lost at the moment. I've lost my town read on Nancy..... Please Nancy come back to town. I wanna believe. She seems to have just faded a bit and is just poking holes in everything. Not necessarily a bad thing but, doesn't seem like the way things started at first.

Trinity, Go take a look at some of FFs other games. His play this game seems exactly like his town play. I'll go looking for one of his scum games and compare though because I've only played with town!FF.

Quick, I'm not sure what to ask you..... Have your reads changed? Not sure if the answer is worth it.

Oka, I don't mean to restate this but, you really seem to be looking for the easiest lynches instead of looking for scum. I don't like it. Also, what do you think about quick?

FF, do you think that Oka is a better lynch then Quick and why?

I am still developing reads. I probably will not get fully caught up and you saying that is Scummy is odd to me.

[Quick]

I sorta feel like Trinity is oblivious Town atm.

[Quick]

@nancy,

you asked me what tone reads were or something like that. I gave an example and you said that was NAI. In between where you answered I brought something else up where you used lmao again but I didn't TR you for it because it seemed to be something you do regularly. What do you make of that?

[Quick]

Soo....... I feel like OKa is a bad or scum. Not sure which.

I also think Trinity is town. She's new and clunky but, I've played a few games with her and nothing seems scummy so far. I've seen her play scum and.... well you'd know.

I really want to vote quick and get quick lynched. To me only scum would come in and throw up their hands and say I'm not reading anything. Here's a vote count. Here's my reads. Don't worry those cause my reads are garbage because I didn't actually read anything. If town came in and refused to read the game they wouldn't then turn around and give reads.

I also think Oka is pushing mis-lynches. Trying to snag the easiest ones. Weird that he's not jumping on Quick as that seems the easiest to me at the moment.

SRing me because I am not caught up is a horrible reason to SR someone. Like, seriously?

I think I'm a bit lost at the moment. I've lost my town read on Nancy..... Please Nancy come back to town. I wanna believe. She seems to have just faded a bit and is just poking holes in everything. Not necessarily a bad thing but, doesn't seem like the way things started at first.

Trinity, Go take a look at some of FFs other games. His play this game seems exactly like his town play. I'll go looking for one of his scum games and compare though because I've only played with town!FF.

Quick, I'm not sure what to ask you..... Have your reads changed? Not sure if the answer is worth it.

Oka, I don't mean to restate this but, you really seem to be looking for the easiest lynches instead of looking for scum. I don't like it. Also, what do you think about quick?

FF, do you think that Oka is a better lynch then Quick and why?

I am still developing reads. I probably will not get fully caught up and you saying that is Scummy is odd to me.

I'm SR you because you refuse to get caught up. That triggers me as a scum thing to do. Even if you are being obvious in announcing that you won't be catching up.

Why is that Scummy? It's not, you've just never come across anyone who doesn't catch up as Town. In fact, it sounds like this whole read is based on the theory of what YOU would do as Town Scum instead of actually looking at why I have taken this course of action. Theory reads don't get you that far actually, and I've known Scum to use them more than Town, so...

[Quick]

people who haven't placed their votes down yet, why?

That's a good question. Who hasn't placed a vote yet? Will look that up.

[Quick]

I did a very light ISO of Eragon. He seems to have played before and doesn't seem like a newb to me. He hasn't posted in like 100 posts though and IDK why. He's probably had time to and he was talking bad about people who weren't active. His content is alright and nothing really immediately pings me, but I'll have to engage with them before I get a better read.

Going to ISO Ice now and see what I can find.

[Quick]

SRing me because I am not caught up is a horrible reason to SR someone. Like, seriously?

Lets not get things twisted here. No one is scum reading you because you arent "caught up." People are scum reading you because you said that you were not going to catch up.

That's the same fucking thing, brah.

I'll do ISOs but I'm not going to read 400 posts when probably at least half of them are RVS anyways. I'm engaged now. I don't see people bringing up stuff from 5 pages ago anyway so it's not like I am missing a whole lot.

I still need to look at Stan1ey's progression.

[Quick]

OK, I did a one over on Ice. he seems to be saying stuff without really saying much. Lot of talk about the IC. Didn't like that he would PL the IC if they were alive D3. That's probably the most notable thing I saw.

[Quick]

FF, you said ISOs are NAI. Is catching up AI?

[Quick]

is anyone else scumreading trinity? I feel a bit lonely. i know ice has made an indication.

In isolation to this game the best I could do so far is neutral. So far my scale is below.


Town - nancy Formerfish
Lean Town - Ergon
Nuetral - Trinity Flicker Stanley
Lean Scum - Oka
Scum - Quick

I really hope you have other reasons for SRing me besides "Quick isn't getting caught up!!1!!1!1one"

[Quick]

FF, you said ISOs are NAI. Is catching up AI?

It depends. Like the game I linked I SR Ceejay based on how he replaced into the game. I wouldnt say it would be a huge dent, but someone legit not catching up in a game this small would ping me. Making an attempt, or intimating that you are, is NAI to me because its optimal play from either side. And you don't even necessarily have to do it, you just would have to worry about slipping up later after saying you were caught up. If scum have day chat then they would have all the relevant info for you there.

You know, after thinking about it, this seems like a completely different kind of read that you are describing besides simply getting caught up. You are describing how Ceejay was inconsistent in a Scummy way, and I'd wager that this kind of thing actually has little to do with whether he was caught up or not. It's a Scummy contradiction that could happen whether he was getting caught up or not.. It's not specific to getting caught up necessarily.

[Quick]

sorry guys, I was sleeping, woke up early, and went to a golf tournament and am finally home.

I will be catching up but I saw someone say something about voting...


I will say this here and now, I am NOT a believer in pressure votes.
When I vote somebody it is because I have a strong belief they will flip scum.
yesterday, I felt like Oka and flicker were both scummy enough to warrant a vote, but me voting would've put them at L-2(iirc)
and I dont think L-2 is a good spot rn because it normally warrants a claim, and claiming this early into the game is bleh, and the game devolves into Neanderthals fighting over which claim people believe

Usually it's L-1 with an intent to hammer that necessitates a claim, not L-2. Where did you get that idea from anyway?

You are saying that you only vote with intent to lynch. How does changing your reads factor into that? AFAICT, playing without pressure votes is sub-optimal because like I just said, your reads are likely to change so if you are just voting to lynch then that takes away any kind of soft stance you might have on someone.

What is your read on Ice?

[Quick]

imo town wants to engage to develop reads on people while scum doesn't care about developing reads they just want to let others engage and argue while avoiding attention.

That's true, but also kinda basic. Why are you saying this/what are you addressing?

[Quick]

OK, I did a one over on Ice. he seems to be saying stuff without really saying much. Lot of talk about the IC. Didn't like that he would PL the IC if they were alive D3. That's probably the most notable thing I saw.

Explain saying stuff without saying much and what that means about his alignment for you? Why don't you like the PL thing?

Looking back on his ISO, I guess it wasn't so much that he was saying stuff without really saying anything, but more that he just has these kind of simple statements that people ask him about and that makes up a lot of his content. As far as saying stuff without really saying anything being Scummy, it's a way to pad your post count to make it look like you are contributing to the game more than you actually are. It's a tell common on my homesite, PerC.

As far as other things I don't like about Ice, his case on me is pretty bad if I am being honest. It's basically just one thing he is SRing me for and it's something that I don't think is AI.

but do you policy lynch ics?

Trying to pull up a bunch of other stuff but I'll answer this now since you've asked twice.

On D1 or D2 no. After that I think you should yes. Here is why.

As a town player and IC is just a more experienced player to help find scum. To me they only have a slight advantage although most of that is lost because new players can be a pain in the ass.

As a scum player they are like a super heros. They can easily sway new players into confusion and mislynches. There is a much bigger advantage to a scum!IC.

I also feel like scum is going to night kill the active/most experienced players first. So it brings in the whole..... why is the IC still alive after a few nights?


I just think that a town!IC makes LYLO super difficult.


Of course if we have a strong read on someone other then the IC we would lynch them instead.

Tldr..... If we have no super strong roads then IC should be lynched before LYLO.

PLing is reserved for play that is blatately Anti-Town and it's been demonstraighted that there is a pattern of this. Ice is basically making the argument that IC's have a BoP, which is asanine since I don't think anyone has a BoP and secondly he is assuming ALL IC's opperate this way, which is kinda disgusting. You should vote people based on if they are Scummy or not, not because they just happen to still be in the game. It's completely backwards logic.

The votes moved from FF to Flicker and who FF and Flicker are voting for.

FF might have gotten caught early and then talked his way out of things. That said, I have known him to be lynchbait, but a really good player, so I have a Null read on that dynamic of the game, however, because both Flicker and FF are voting the same person who seems to have produced a wagon out of nowhere seems pretty suspect to me.

Also, Nacy's post on this page seem to have Town tone and I know Nancy to be a pretty good Town player and they are voting for Flicker. I need to look into Stan1ey's progression and vote on Flicker more, but that is where I am at atm.

I feel like you didn't really read the thread at all and just skimmed. That's kind of scummy. Everyone knew/agreed that the wagon on FF was RVS.

Quick, read game pls thx

Don't really want to. I usually don't even replace into games with 200+ posts, so you're lucky to have me as it is.

This is horrible.....

Soo....... I feel like OKa is a bad or scum. Not sure which.

I also think Trinity is town. She's new and clunky but, I've played a few games with her and nothing seems scummy so far. I've seen her play scum and.... well you'd know.

I really want to vote quick and get quick lynched.

To me

only scum

would come in and throw up their hands and say I'm not reading anything. Here's a vote count. Here's my reads. Don't worry those cause my reads are garbage because I didn't actually read anything.

If town came in and refused to read the game they wouldn't then turn around and give reads.

I also think Oka is pushing mis-lynches. Trying to snag the easiest ones.

Weird that he's not jumping on Quick as that seems the easiest to me at the moment.

ONLY Scum do that? Orly? I think I pointed out to someone that just because I haven't caught up doesn't mean that that is Scummy, it just means that people haven't seen Town do that before, or they are just trying to push that as Scummy. I have seen lots of Town not catch up after replacing in.. It's not Scummy at all. Some people make a that their regular way of replacing in, Titus being one example. Also, I didn't say nor imply any of what Ice is pushing on me.

Soo....... I feel like OKa is a bad or scum. Not sure which.

I also think Trinity is town. She's new and clunky but, I've played a few games with her and nothing seems scummy so far. I've seen her play scum and.... well you'd know.

I really want to vote quick and get quick lynched. To me only scum would come in and throw up their hands and say I'm not reading anything. Here's a vote count. Here's my reads. Don't worry those cause my reads are garbage because I didn't actually read anything. If town came in and refused to read the game they wouldn't then turn around and give reads.

I also think Oka is pushing mis-lynches. Trying to snag the easiest ones. Weird that he's not jumping on Quick as that seems the easiest to me at the moment.

SRing me because I am not caught up is a horrible reason to SR someone. Like, seriously?

I think I'm a bit lost at the moment. I've lost my town read on Nancy..... Please Nancy come back to town. I wanna believe. She seems to have just faded a bit and is just poking holes in everything. Not necessarily a bad thing but, doesn't seem like the way things started at first.

Trinity, Go take a look at some of FFs other games. His play this game seems exactly like his town play. I'll go looking for one of his scum games and compare though because I've only played with town!FF.

Quick, I'm not sure what to ask you..... Have your reads changed? Not sure if the answer is worth it.

Oka, I don't mean to restate this but, you really seem to be looking for the easiest lynches instead of looking for scum. I don't like it. Also, what do you think about quick?

FF, do you think that Oka is a better lynch then Quick and why?

I am still developing reads. I probably will not get fully caught up and you saying that is Scummy is odd to me.

I'm SR you because you refuse to get caught up. That triggers me as a scum thing to do. Even if you are being obvious in announcing that you won't be catching up.

Why is that Scummy? It's not, you've just never come across anyone who doesn't catch up as Town. In fact, it sounds like this whole read is based on the theory of what YOU would do as Town Scum instead of actually looking at why I have taken this course of action. Theory reads don't get you that far actually, and I've known Scum to use them more than Town, so...

This was never answered. Instead, we see the following two posts where Ice goes Straight to putting me as his biggest SR to promply voting for me shortly after that.

is anyone else scumreading trinity? I feel a bit lonely. i know ice has made an indication.

In isolation to this game the best I could do so far is neutral. So far my scale is below.


Town - nancy Formerfish
Lean Town - Ergon
Nuetral - Trinity Flicker Stanley
Lean Scum - Oka
Scum - Quick

I really hope you have other reasons for SRing me besides "Quick isn't getting caught up!!1!!1!1one"

I guess I hadn't voted.

VOTE: Quick

I'm putting my vote here for now. I don't like what's happened so far. I will change my opinion after Quick has made some solid reads/effort that is at least not anti-town.

His case is so weak I can't even believe it's a thing, let alone something to make someone a top SR.

VOTE: Ice

[Quick]

Vote: Quick

I don't believe that your read on Iceman is real.

OK.

You're saying that you disagree with him or he is bad therefore he is mafia, which is nonsense.

No, I am not saying any of that. Reread my case on Ice. I said he's Scum for pushing something as Scummy that is NAI.

Your entire case on him feels like shade and I don't like it one bit. Please catch up and provide thoughts on the game.

Have you not seen someone make a case on someone before or what? What about my case on him is Shade as opposed to an actual read? Shade to me is where you try and make someone look like Scum without voting them in hopes of changing someone in the game's mind on them or just weakening people's read on them as Town. I'm not doing that considering I am actually voting him for his shit reasons for voting me.

Why the hell should I do what you say? Frankly, I don't give a shit if you don't think my read on Ice is "real" I'm voting a SR get over it. You've talked about how "tone reads mean nothing" well you saying my read on Ice isn't real is basically the same fucking thing. Unless you can actually point to examples about how my read on him is "fake" I don't want to hear it.

I feel like you are just SRing me because I made an abrupt change of vote on someone. That's not Scummy - especially when I am still developing reads.

I don't really feel like getting blackmailed by votes just because I haven't fully caught up. Clearly, you're one of those people who isn't experienced enough to know that some people just play from where they replace in. Yeah, I know I am not doing myself any favors by coming across as so abrasive, but I don't really care at this point since the only legitimate (and I use the term loosely) reason why anyone has said I am Scummy is because I haven't fully caught up yet.

[Quick]

@quick could you link me some games in which you replaced in and didn't go back and read?

No.

[Quick]

@nancy what are the point of these questions, especially question number 3

Now that nancy's responded, I want to know: What was the point of

this

question? You don't seem to have a problem with them, given you answered them (in post 18, although with less detail than basically everyone else). It also seems fairly obvious that at least one of the ways nancy uses them is for hunting, given how she'd already started sorting people based on their answers (12, 15). Plus, it seems a little off to me how it took you so long to wonder about them.

I sorta don't believe that these are things that bother you?

Feels a little more like you're looking for ways to dumpster him for not looking sexy than having legitimate concerns with what his motivations are. Particularly the way that you're kind of passive aggressively painting what he's doing as scummy without actually committing to a scumread.

I'd expect

that kind of approach when you've maybe had a scumread for a while and been stewing over it and there's just nothing about the person that you like, not in a super early game situation where first impressions are still being made pretty much.

So, uh, why is it scummy to you that he didn't ask me about the RQS thing right away? Why is it a bad thing that he asked me about something that you felt should be obvious? I don't necessarily agree that it should have been obvious and I don't think there's anything super harmful in asking that kind of question, so please help me see why you do?

I don't understand your approach here and I'd like to understand it so if you could talk more about what you're thinking / doing that would be super helpful.

Vote: Flicker

[Quick]

Funny you think I'm subtly shading Oka, because I felt like I was pretty explicitly scumreading him, based on him subtly shading

you

.

Wow, ok.

[Quick]

but do you policy lynch ics?

Trying to pull up a bunch of other stuff but I'll answer this now since you've asked twice.

On D1 or D2 no. After that I think you should yes. Here is why.

As a town player and IC is just a more experienced player to help find scum. To me they only have a slight advantage although most of that is lost because new players can be a pain in the ass.

As a scum player they are like a super heros. They can easily sway new players into confusion and mislynches. There is a much bigger advantage to a scum!IC.

I also feel like scum is going to night kill the active/most experienced players first. So it brings in the whole..... why is the IC still alive after a few nights?


I just think that a town!IC makes LYLO super difficult.


Of course if we have a strong read on someone other then the IC we would lynch them instead.

Tldr..... If we have no super strong roads then IC should be lynched before LYLO.

nancy, if you haven't yet, I'd like your thoughts on this.

[Quick]

This is..... I think.... the most beautiful post I've ever seen. The use of brain juice is amazing.

Also, you are either the best scum player ever or you are town. I'm going to lean town but I think ICs should always be lynched before LYLO.


I'm catching up and I really like your display of reads. I think it is a bit complicated and I need something to decipher it but the concept is cool.

Making me blush. Also, lmao at lynching IC's before lylo. Iceman pls.

God I'm having too much fun.

What exactly is this? you can write 400 words on describing transparency but say so little about this?

[Quick]

huh?

Your unvote is weird.

Why was it weird? He just pointed out that trinity voting brought me to l-2, and his vote was on me as well. Since his vote on me was in rvs and we are clearly out of it, it would make sense to move or at least remove a rvs vote which is currently the leading wagon based solely off of rvs votes.

Naked unvotes are wolfy.

It's slightly a meme.

Are you always this... logical?

Why no mention of FF using 2 games as Meta here?

[Quick]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

Let's be honest here.. Probably both yourself and I have more experience than nancy.

[Quick]

it feels like it was phrased in a way that allows iceman to build upon it later to attack nancy w/o really needing to build a legitimate in game case on her

like instead of saying something about nancy feels off, feels like she is controlling town he goes with the proposition that cannot really be argued against

I don't think you're insane for thinking this.

But like, lmao, it doesn't feel very intuitive for mafia to come in the way he did and talk in detail about his idea that we should lynch the IC in lylo. He has to know that will look bad and if he's mafia he has to already be feeling like he wants me very dead with the way my thread presence is, so it's like, not a thing that he's ever actually going to cash in on and he would know that. I also kind of feel like it would take a bit more of an experienced player to try to use that as a way to break down trust, and kinda think he'd be intimidated by me given how he's a newb and newbscum generally suck up to the IC.

This kinda bugs me. IDK why people keep saying Ice is a newb when he's not.

[Quick]

well, even so we have plenty of time.

im used to 96 hour days(4 days RL) at the maximum and we have double that plus one day.

these daylengths feel abnormally long to me, but I know I have plenty of time

This was a HUGE adjustment for me at first. I was used to 48 hours.

The nights are the worst. 48 hours..... really? We do 24 or when all actions are received. Usually with 20 PRs sending in actions.

Yeah, this was the post I saw in Ice's ISO that told me he wasn't a newb.

[Quick]

OK, I'm caught up, AMA

/S

Seriously though I really hate being blackmailed to catch up in a game. Shit is just not right.

In other news, not sold on FF being Town. He got early TRs from people and that seems to have stuck for not very good reasons I don't think. FF is a good player, not ready to clear them just based on... Whatever people were TRing him for, because from what I saw, didn't see a whole lot of Town tells and def felt like I was strongly disagreeing with some of the stuff he's said so far.

[Quick]

is the /s to the AMA or the being caught up

It's to the AMA. I already did that one.

[Quick]

Vote: Quick

I don't believe that your read on Iceman is real. You're saying that you disagree with him or he is bad therefore he is mafia, which is nonsense. Your entire case on him feels like shade and I don't like it one bit. Please catch up and provide thoughts on the game.

Are you getting a scum caught for reasons they dont believe they should have been caught kinda vibe coming off of Quick right now?

Uh-huh. It looks like you like that argument.

[Quick]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

Let's be honest here.. Probably both yourself and I have more experience than nancy.

Ok, and is scum are newbies they still have a higher chance, imo, to kill the IC early because they are going to be perceived as their biggest threat.

And are you an Alt to someone I am unaware of?

I have one alt: LQ.

[Quick]

Well, technically LQ is my main and Quick is my alt, but whatever.

[Quick]

@quick could you link me some games in which you replaced in and didn't go back and read?

No.

No because you dont want to link us to those games?

Or no because those games dont exist?

No, I don't think I have done it before. I was trying to take a break from Mafia, but I couldn't help myself.

[Quick]

it feels like it was phrased in a way that allows iceman to build upon it later to attack nancy w/o really needing to build a legitimate in game case on her

like instead of saying something about nancy feels off, feels like she is controlling town he goes with the proposition that cannot really be argued against

I don't think you're insane for thinking this.

But like, lmao, it doesn't feel very intuitive for mafia to come in the way he did and talk in detail about his idea that we should lynch the IC in lylo. He has to know that will look bad and if he's mafia he has to already be feeling like he wants me very dead with the way my thread presence is, so it's like, not a thing that he's ever actually going to cash in on and he would know that. I also kind of feel like it would take a bit more of an experienced player to try to use that as a way to break down trust, and kinda think he'd be intimidated by me given how he's a newb and newbscum generally suck up to the IC.

This kinda bugs me. IDK why people keep saying Ice is a newb when he's not.

How is not a newbie? He has finished 3 newbie games, is in his 4th and is playing in his first non-newbie game concurrently.

If he isn't a newbie then he is like a half step above being one. Not sure why you feel the need to try and bolster your SRs position there, maybe you think it gives your case on him more weight. Your case is bad by the way. It basically comes down to the fact that you dont personally think what you did was scummy. You fail to take into account that the way you think is not the way everyone thinks. Some people think in ways completely different from you. If I also found the way you came in scummy, as well as a few others in this game it appears, dont you think that maybe, just fucking maybe, that they have experience where scum does just what you did. And I know you responded that what Ceejay did, in the game I used as an example, is different from what you did/are doing, but that misses the point.

The point is that people can get scum read for the fucking flimsiest of reasons. When scum get caught by reasons they think they shouldnt be caught for they usually act the way you are right now.

Which is how?

I didn't see that Ice had only played 3-4 games, what I saw is that he was playing in games with 20 PRs. Those kinds of games are generally reserved for people who completely know what they are doing or completely have no idea what they are doing and I assumed the former.

It's nice that you know people think in different ways, but that's not why I am SRing Ice.

They (in general, which is how you are phrasing this) could have had the experience where a Scum person didn't catch up, but that wasn't my impression of Ice's reason for voting me. It seemed theory based. As far as nanacy's vote is concerned, I've already addressed that.

I do have a question though. Are you going to actually vote me or are you just gunna shade me?

[Quick]

OK, I'm caught up, AMA

/S

Seriously though I really hate being blackmailed to catch up in a game. Shit is just not right.

(1)

In other news, not sold on FF being Town. He got early TRs from people

(2)

and that seems to have stuck for not very good reasons I don't think. FF is a good player

(3)

, not ready to clear them just based on... Whatever people were TRing him for, because from what I saw, didn't see a whole lot of Town tells and def felt like I was strongly disagreeing with some of the stuff he's said so far.

(4)

1. Womp Womp. You didnt have to listen to us, you made a choice to. You could have stuck to your guns and probably would have backfired on you. Why did you decide to actually participate with the class?
2. Examples?
3. Ooooo... did you meta dive me? I love when I get doven into. What are you basing this statement off of?
4. More examples? Was it so hard to click that little Q button to focus on posts of mine you didnt like?

Quit trying to get under my skin, thanks. You already know I am pissed for being forced to do something I don't want to do. Is the attitude really necessary?

[Quick]

@formerfish your vote is still on me it appears, so talk to me, why am I scum still?

for visibility

Didnt we do this dance last game we were in as well. I dont really interact with scum reads like that. I kinda dont trust actions made by people directly after I make it known that I think they are scum. Especially when its players that I have played with a few times before. There is just to much ability for people to switch metas or play to someones expectations after that point. Right now my vote is on you because I think you have a higher chance of being scum at this very point in the game. All that is going to change that is someone else popping the top of their scum tree just a head above the rest to get seen.

Quick is doing a good job of getting there for me right now. inb4 omgus read.

ninja- Oka, seriously bro? You can clearly see that I am catching up to the current posts and just responded to a post like 7 before this one... have some fucking patience that shit will get done in the time it should.

Well, that was a quick catch up.

[Quick]

Here is your OMGUS, bud.

VOTE: FF

tbh I feel like you are just trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake. Plus that excuse about trying to catch up when you were pretty much already there was pretty bad.

[Quick]

Quick, if you don't want to read a game, don't replace into a game. You need to cut out the attitude because it doesn't belong in a newbie game and you straight up don't belong here either if you're going to be like this.

Thanks IC.

[Quick]

I'm gunna take a break.

[Quick]

I am having second thoughts on Ice. Reason I was SRing him before is because a lot of his thought process in terms of reads is just plain wrong, but maybe he is actually just a newb and doesn't know any better.

Ex. Him saying nancy poking holes in everything is Scummy... That's actually pretty damn Townie IMO. His Thought process is overly black and white which is not something I would expect from someone playing in games with 20 PRs. I can explain this, but don't feel like it. I have a lot of experience all over the web so just trust me on this. Still, he has this kind of ignorance that I can't help comes from Town.

[Quick]

I don't really have a read on Oka. I think something they are doing is Scummy and other things they are doing is incredibly Townie. Overall, I'd say Null Town (which is weaker than Town Lean for me).

[Quick]

I don't think Oka is a good choice for lynching this phase. I'd rather PRs deal with him.

[Quick]

I don't really have a read on Oka. I think something they are doing is Scummy and other things they are doing is incredibly Townie. Overall, I'd say Null Town (which is weaker than Town Lean for me).

What has he done that’s incredibly towny and what’s been scummy?

Some of the questions Oka has asked have seemed very Town motivated. But what they are pushing is a bit suspect.

[Quick]

I don't really have a read on Oka. I think something they are doing is Scummy and other things they are doing is incredibly Townie. Overall, I'd say Null Town (which is weaker than Town Lean for me).

What has he done that’s incredibly towny and what’s been scummy?

Some of the questions Oka has asked have seemed very Town motivated. But what they are pushing is a bit suspect.

Can you give examples?

This might sound Scummy or stupid to you, but I have to ask why you need examples.

[Quick]

I don't really have a read on Oka. I think something they are doing is Scummy and other things they are doing is incredibly Townie. Overall, I'd say Null Town (which is weaker than Town Lean for me).

What has he done that’s incredibly towny and what’s been scummy?

Some of the questions Oka has asked have seemed very Town motivated. But what they are pushing is a bit suspect.

Can you give examples?

This might sound Scummy or stupid to you, but I have to ask why you need examples.

Because I want to know your thought process and how you're drawing those conclusions

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?

Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

[Quick]

Dammit you stole the page-top

You will regret this!

Literal LOL. IDEK why I thought that was so funny, but it was.

[Quick]

While this is all going on can people tell me what they think of Eragon? Curious to see where everyone stands on that slot

I have him as pretty solidly Null atm. His content isn't bad, but he seems a bit disengaged.

[Quick]

I saw someone talkign about my tone, well take this as you will, but im trying to be nicer and calmer playing FM

on my Home site i can get a bit riled up and sarcastic and jerky and annoying, and this annoys me as well.
Coming to a new site, a fresh start, i am trying to be calmer. I can see where this can seem like im trying to avoid conflict/stay under the radar, so i suppose i cant have both worlds be perfect. Im still gonna try to be calm, but i will also push and prod people to help me soldiify my reads

Catching up now

Have you given a read on Oka? They've been a player under much contention for the majority of the game and I would like to see a stance there.

[Quick]

I saw someone talkign about my tone, well take this as you will, but im trying to be nicer and calmer playing FM

on my Home site i can get a bit riled up and sarcastic and jerky and annoying, and this annoys me as well.
Coming to a new site, a fresh start, i am trying to be calmer. I can see where this can seem like im trying to avoid conflict/stay under the radar, so i suppose i cant have both worlds be perfect. Im still gonna try to be calm, but i will also push and prod people to help me soldiify my reads

Catching up now

Have you given a read on Oka? They've been a player under much contention for the majority of the game and I would like to see a stance there.

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

[Quick]

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I completely fail to see what you are trying to point out here.

[Quick]

Because quick ended up catching up and even when he was getting put at the stake by FF he still found time to interact with others

TBH, this is not a very good reason to TR me.

[Quick]

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I completely fail to see what you are trying to point out here.

Seriously man? Like 10 posts before WM asked you to show work on your read and you told him to iso the guy and think for himself. Then you ask someone else to show the reasons they have come up with a read.

Why should they if you refuse to show your work?

Its hypocritical.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

[Quick]

I don't really have a read on Oka. I think something they are doing is Scummy and other things they are doing is incredibly Townie. Overall, I'd say Null Town (which is weaker than Town Lean for me).

What has he done that’s incredibly towny and what’s been scummy?

Some of the questions Oka has asked have seemed very Town motivated. But what they are pushing is a bit suspect.

Can you give examples?

This might sound Scummy or stupid to you, but I have to ask why you need examples.

Because I want to know your thought process and how you're drawing those conclusions

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?

Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I want to know how

you

are reaching your conclusions.

I am going off the assumption that you want to make sure I am not full of shit in what I am saying. I don't need to provide examples for that if you can figure it out yourself if what I am saying has merit or not.

[Quick]

FF seems to be doing an awful lot of self-meta recently which is kinda questionable after him being a main wagon.

[Quick]

Sarge, how much to you is too much posting or too little posting?

you seemed somewhat convinced.

why aren't you voting flicker up?

You said you had the risk of making a random vote and getting the scrutinized for that versus getting scrutinized for not voting at all which makes me think that getting scrutinized is at the forefront of your mind.

trinity is town because i don't see a new player interact that much and be scum

nancy ur town because i don't see you interacting that much to be scum

stanley feels like a rational town player

---

i thought trinity might have been scum with the rvs vote thing she did on FF but i don't think so anymore, mainly because i think her not understanding it was l2 seems genuine

flicker seems a bit defensive but nothing concrete yet

former is town because reasons

---
unvoted because we are out of rvs

and ill read that eragon post later

Two examples of each that I found in like 2 min.

[Quick]

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

How do you expect him to explain his scum read on Oka? Hes going to have to show the posts that made him feel icky inside and then explain them to you to see if you feel icky as well. If we all just automatically felt the same way about posts then this game would be a lot easier than it is. Asking why someone is scum inherently is asking the other person to give examples.

I am going off the assumption that you want to make sure I am not full of shit in what I am saying. I don't need to provide examples for that if you can figure it out yourself if what I am saying has merit or not.

Like listen man. I'm not going to tell you how to play, you do you. Heres the thing though, when I see anti-town play, I say something. WM asked you a legit question in response to something you said. Your response to his question was to go reread himself with your vague statement in mind and to see what post pinged him and then you would let him know if those were the right ones?

And you claim that that is the simple way of doing it. Simple to me would be you quoting a few posts where Oka exemplified the behaviors you spoke to him exhibiting as evidence to the group to further your own read.

How is that Anti-Town? Just because YOU don't play that way doesn't mean it's Anti-Town. As far as "how is he supposed to explain?" You don't really need to give examples to do that - in fact, he could pretty much just do exactly what I did, which is give a rundown of how things have gone in general. Maybe it's that I am more big picture than you are. Having an overall understanding is better than specifics anyways.

[Quick]

@formerfish what are your reads on trinity/iceman/eragon?

Scum lean, town lean, null town.

Something in her post just seem desperate to me. I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me. The push on me is a bad one since she is using meta for the most part and the meta isnt accurate.

I like the way Iceman plays, it reminds me a lot of myself as a younger town player. He says whats on his mind and lays in the bed he makes when he has to answer for something. I also see a progression in him from the games weve played. This is where I see his town game now from the last 2, I dont see him as scum here.

Eragon, a lot of what he posts seems perfunctory. Other things show good signs. Wouldnt lynch here today.

Holy Fuck, you're so full of shit!

When asked about how you are reading someone you go straight to overall play, not examples. This is a pretty blatant contradiction of play, bud.

[Quick]

@quick, current read on trinity/iceman/eragon?

Trinity is *probably* Town. I sense newb Townness a lot there. Trinity has stuck to their guns when it hasn't been optimal to do so and, no offence to them, but I don't think they have the experience to play this way as Scum.

Ice is a tentative Town Lean. I think his process for getting reads is mostly wrong, but that doesn't mean he is Scum. Instead, I am leaning that he's just new to trying to come up with Reads. This is exemplified by the fact that he is used to playing in big games with lots of roles, which would make play based reads a weak point for him.

Eragon is probably Null/Null Scum for me atm. Not a high priority for me rn. I haven't had a lot of opportunities to engage with him in real time, and that's kinda what I am waiting for to get a better read on him. WhyMafia makes some good points on Eragon, but at the same time, that could just be playstyle.

[Quick]

Two examples of each that I found in like 2 min.

Holy shit this is like pulling teeth with you. Which ones are examples of ones you liked and which are the ones you didnt. Why to both?

It's like you are not even paying attention at this point. WhyMafia asked why I was reading Oka the way I was. I said I felt some of their questions seemed really Town motivated but that I thought some of their pushes were suspect. Pretty sure you can figure out the rest. Pretty sure you are just being this difficult because Oka is who you want to lynch, which is incredibly Scummy if correct.

The constant defensiveness and your tone add to the whole ensemble. I might be misreading your posts though and you dont have a tone, dont know you well enough to figure between the two right now.

Since when is defensiveness a Scum tell? It's not, you're just trying to push this narrative because I disagree with you.

[Quick]

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

[Quick]

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

Im pretty sure there is nothing I can do with you right now that you wouldnt scum read. But if you want to act like what you are saying is right then go for it. I see how you twice failed to acknowledge that the thing you are "getting me" for in that post isnt even a thing. Oka asking me for reads and me not giving specific posts to back up each one is not the same an WM asking you to explain a specific read you had. But keep pushing your narrative, I get it. Rolling scum in a game you replace into sucks, but this is nothing personal, if it werent you another body would be in that scumseat.

LOL, you are such Scum.

How is that not a contradiction?

[Quick]

Here's another contradiction in FF's play: They say I am confbiasing him as Scum.. Even if I am (I'm not) He's doing the same fucking thing to me!

[Quick]

And there's a difference between pressure and confbias so let's just settle that rn. So far, FF isn't doing anything to change my mind that he is Scum.

[Quick]

Because Oka hasnt asked for it yet. Its not that you didnt do it, its that you wouldnt do it when someone asked. If Oka needs more info from me on hose reads to satisfy his curiosity then he can ask. If I refuse then itd be like you and scummy. However that situation hasnt taken place yet so...

Also legit question. When you find out im town, where do you go from there?

Ninja- naw bro, using confbias to add to my scum read of you is not the same.

You are the one who was pushing me for not giving examples. So what makes you think who asked you what would be satisfied without examples? On the one hand, you are arguing that I am Scummy for not providing examples, which shows that you agree examples are necessary, otherwise there is no reason to bring it up in the first place. On the other hand, you are not providing examples yourself and basically representing that an overview of play is how you personally operate. So then why am I Scummy for operating in the same way that you are? You are looking for EXCUSES to SR me.

[Quick]

I have too many TRs I think

[Quick]

Reads

Town

nanacy, Trinity

Town Lean

Ice, Oka

Null

Flicker, WhyMafia, Eragon

Scum Lean

FF

I guess I can't really justify giving a Town Lean to WhyMafia. Flicker fits the same category, so out of my Nulls, Eragon is probably the Scummiest.

[Quick]

I like Iceman as a lean town

Why?

[Quick]

@nancy opinion on defensive tells?

I think tells are things that shouldn't be things.

What do you mean by "defensive tells", specifically, though?

There are things that are tells. I know from experience.

[Quick]

@Flicker,

If you had to give the difference(s) between your Town game and Scum game, what would they be?

[Quick]

Hey Quick, could you give me a consolidated and updated post on what makes you feel so strongly about FF with quotes and explanation and stuff? I know its a lot to ask but I'm doing some revisiting of reads and want to see what you think.

I might be able to get to that tomorrow. RN, I am spent because I didn't get any sleep and intellectual stuff like that rn seems like a GD chore (which is not my usual - usually I love doing that shit).

[Quick]

Because Oka hasnt asked for it yet. Its not that you didnt do it, its that you wouldnt do it when someone asked. If Oka needs more info from me on hose reads to satisfy his curiosity then he can ask. If I refuse then itd be like you and scummy. However that situation hasnt taken place yet so...

Also legit question. When you find out im town, where do you go from there?

Ninja- naw bro, using confbias to add to my scum read of you is not the same.

You are the one who was pushing me for not giving examples. So what makes you think who asked you what would be satisfied without examples? On the one hand, you are arguing that I am Scummy for not providing examples, which shows that you agree examples are necessary, otherwise there is no reason to bring it up in the first place. On the other hand, you are not providing examples yourself and basically representing that an overview of play is how you personally operate. So then why am I Scummy for operating in the same way that you are? You are looking for EXCUSES to SR me.

Bro. Stop acting like what happened is the same. Its not. Your insistence here is starting to tell a story thats not going to be able to be untold.

You said a thing about someone. Someone else asked you to expand on it. You declined.
Someone asked me a question. I answered it. They have yet to say if that answer was satisfactory to them or not. Once they do then the conversation Oka and I are having will go from there.

See the difference?

And I really would love to not see scum in your play so that I can get away from you for a bit, but unfortunately the way you

are

playing is scummy to me and I am going to push that here.

It's a difference in play.

[Quick]

@nancy opinion on defensive tells?

Is this a legit question? Are you asking nancy the player or nancy the IC?

Yes and this is directed towards nancy the player.

as for FF im pretty sure he is town because interactions and the fact that he left my wagon for a pretty low potential wagon but I have still have a running theory on reading him that is going to need more time to resolve itself

i guess i dont really make sense, at that time i was thinking ff had a good chance of being scum, then i thought to myself there are more scummy people ahead of him so meh probably not

You had mentioned something that either was playing out or could play out that would have helped you figure out my alignment. Care to talk about that more?

It is still a work in progress.

I thought you said FF and I was TvT, unless that was someone else.

[Quick]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

Its going to be hard for me to read trinity this game. She only has 1 in and it was a scum game. I just dont remember her speaking like this last game and in the back of my mind im thinking she is going overboard acting townie because she thinks its going to hide her when it just makes her stick out.

What did it for me with the townread was how honest/genuine she felt when responding to concerns on her.

Meta and stuff.

[Quick]

873

There is some ideas I agree with here, but the point of the game is completely missed. Rather than detail in a pbpa, I'm just going to give a simple statement and let people ponder that.

Playing as Scum is about lynching X amount of Townies. Playing as Town is 75% creating content and 25% solving.

[Quick]

Scum don't need lynches to win, town does.

You are sorely mistaken.

Playing as Town is about being process oriented, not results oriented. Scum, on the other hand, is about being results oriented and not process oriented. Why? Because Town cannot win by luck i.e. Random chance. To back this up with something very substantial, games are balanced around the idea that Town does better than Rand. Without any PRs it takes 11 Town and 2 (or 1, I forget) Scum for Town to break even lynching randomly. The fundamental rule of thumb for this social deduction game is that it is Scum's game to lose. Scum

should

have a much better record than Town with the kind of setups that are traditionally played, but, site depending, it usually breaks even or within, I want to say, a 10% spread. MS has typically been known for Poor Town Play/Good Scum Play because the win rates for Scum on this site I want to say are between 57.5% and 65%. That's pretty horrendous for Town. The cause of this is due to PR's being too heavily favored on this site which causes an overreliance on them and detracts away from good old-fashioned Scumhunting. You see, Scumhunting is the Process that needs to be correct in order for Town to win. Results don't come quickly for Town and Scumhunting is a game of diminishing returns. Therefore, you need more content then solving ability in games otherwise Town would never figure out anything.

IMHO, this site is in a very very bad way in terms of Town pay. It's people that think this game is about solving that is the problem. There are always going to be people in the game who can solve. Having players who create meaningful content is a lot more difficult to come by. I have my own theories on what I think content is and I'm not going to get into it now, but basically, creating content is about stirring the pot and giving people something to chew on. That's something that a lot of players have no idea of the significance of. One only needs to look at this game to see the positive effects of Scumhunting.. Look no further than nancy. There's a reason I pointed out that Ice's process was wrong saying nancy was Scummy for pushing every which direction. In fact, that is the definition of what you need to see from Town members in a game for Town to win.

/class dismissed

[Quick]

DAMMIT YOU STOLE MY PAGE TOP
that's definitely evidence that you are scum *points finger*

Reusing the same joke is kinda Scummy.

Discuss.

[Quick]

Because if you are scum, we lynch me today, you can nk one of those two and worst case scenario the other person is scum, nobody here is going to have the guts to oppose you and your bloc.

I didn't realize I was on the Town block...

[Quick]

No? Iceman was saying that we should policy lynch the IC the day before lylo.

Wrong that's what several people misconstrued it into.

I reiterated my point several times in that its very easy for new players to completely trust the IC by mistake. The IC can easily manipulate the new players and sometimes do it on accident.

My statement was that if the IC is still around by day 3 there should be some extra scrutiny placed on them. More so then a non-ic.

You said not to look at the IC until D3 at which point, we should heavily consider lynching them if they are still alive. I am not construing anything. Sure, you didn't actually say Policy Lynch, but that's still basically what you were implying.

[Quick]

Do you just not have reads this game, Quick?

IDK what gives you that idea. Look at the previous post to this one I quoted, for example.

[Quick]

So you're just going to acquiesce to an Oka lynch?

Wut?

[Quick]

So you're just going to acquiesce to an Oka lynch?

Actually, now that I think about it, I have to ask where exactly is the resistance to lynching Oka here? Seems no one is really that concerned that Oka is getting lynched, which makes me think Oka had a good shot at being Town here.

[Quick]

You can't say there's a possibility for him being town

bc

there's a lack of resistance to this wagon

Yes, you can. I've seen it happen a ton.

[Quick]

There's been multiple times his wagon has died too /shrug

This is true, yes.

[Quick]

yeah but now that its coalesced onto me its bad

Why?

[Quick]

because lynching town is generally bad and its looking apparent that it might happen as we approach the deadline

We don't know you are Town though, and you framing things from the perspective that you are Town shouldn't actually change anyone's mind about anything.

[Quick]

But it doesn't change the fact that I don't like the gamestate right now?

You can not like it all you want but just because you are saying you are Town (which is the reason you don't like the game state IIRC) then no one has any incentive to just believe you at your word. People can say they are Town all day long and it doesn't make it any more or less true. Scum has just as much incentive to use the narrative that you are using, so it's not something that should convince anyone. For us to believe you that you don't like the game state, we FIRST have to believe that you are Town and we can't assume that you are Town.

[Quick]

@quick, are you still sold on FF as scum for the moment? Do you have any other scumreads?

These were the last Reads I gave and they are pretty much the same rn.

Reads

Town

nanacy, Trinity

Town Lean

Ice, Oka

Null

Flicker, WhyMafia, Eragon

Scum Lean

FF

I guess I can't really justify giving a Town Lean to WhyMafia. Flicker fits the same category, so out of my Nulls, Eragon is probably the Scummiest.

Yeah I understand that.

Can I have your FF case soon?

My reasons for SRing FF should be pretty apparent at this point; I'd rather not ISO FF to come up with stuff.

[Quick]

Trinity is creeping up on me as being Scummy now. It seems whenever Trinity is asked something, they completely disappear. Very suspect.

@nancy, what do you mean when you say I am not doing anything? I feel like I have been pushing my SRs just fine, offering my reasoning on why I TR the people I do. What do you want from me?

[Quick]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

Ugh. I hate this post. The idea put forth in this post is so very very bad. You don't lynch people because of their title, you lynch them because they are Scum, period.

[Quick]

it's not the pagecount and number of posts that makes it slow its the lack of scumhunting and wagon forming which im at fault for but nonetheless its giving a slow impression

Lack of scum hunting? Its day 1 and we are on page, what, 8? We are still very much in the feeling each other out stage for anyone to have really strong feelings about wanting to hang anyone. Shit we can have hunches and we can have inklings, but if you are looking for a full blown case this early then you are scum and need to die.

Also, at you talking about the lack of wagons forming when you commented on not wanting to join the one on flicker and would rather do your own thing over there.

So many things wrong with this post...

You should be Scum hunting regardless of what Day it is, for one.

Wanting wagons to form and not wanting to be on ANY wagon isn't a contradiction, seriously.

[Quick]

Trinity is creeping up on me as being Scummy now. It seems whenever Trinity is asked something, they completely disappear. Very suspect.

@nancy, what do you mean when you say I am not doing anything? I feel like I have been pushing my SRs just fine, offering my reasoning on why I TR the people I do. What do you want from me?

Point to a question that Trinity hasn't answered and explain why activity is alignment indicative.

It's not my point that Trinity isn't answering questions, it's when. Though Flicker has the same problem IIRC, I believe Flicker is just busy with irl things. It's a kind of soft tell I have for people. IDK though, I could be misremembering and if I am it's because I have difficulty remembering what happens 3-4 days ago. I've played more games with like 48/36 hour Day Phases so that's sorta the benchmark I try to use. I know it's wrong to do that but I can't help it. 72/24 is actually my preferred in case you care.

I don't think you have been doing those things. Your push on FF, moreover, is basically just you saying that FF is full of shit and calling him scummy.

I've pushed multiple people and still am. I am poking things, I guess you can't see it for some reason.

[Quick]

@Flicker,

If you had to give the difference(s) between your Town game and Scum game, what would they be?

I've only rolled scum once (in Micro 805.1), but I wouldn't say I really got the opportunity to

play

as scum, so I don't know [what the difference is].

Why do you ask?

@Quick

I still want an answer to this.

I wanted to know because you talked about your Town game a fair bit and I was wondering what would be different about your Scum game. Seems you don't actually know, which seems odd to talk about your Town game like you know it so well when you don't really know how it contrasts to your Scum game. That's all.

[Quick]

@Trinity I dunno what to say honestly, it's not really good enough to just list names in an order, you have to be able to talk about why those names are ordered the way they are. Like, you were able to talk about FF and Oka at least to some degree, that fact that you're completely unable to articulate any form of a scumread on anyone else at this point is super super worrying. You've also got FF in your lynch pool which is ???, you have stated a townread on FF, please explain how that makes sense.

Trinity seems to be an odd player/has an odd playstyle, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I think Trinity is just really new to Mafia which is probably what is contributing to the OMGUS reads Trinity has mostly done (but tbh I cba to look at what Trinities reads were throughout the game, just feels like here reads are OMGUSsy).

[Quick]

About the wagon stuff people were mentioning earlier...

If a wagon on one player continually dies, it can be a sign that they're mafia because their partners may be pushing against the lynch, and because mafia are more likely to support town lynches, making it easier for them to go through. This is why you should look for mafia on the wagon of a mafia lynch if the lynch seems to go through too easily.

If the thread dies when there is a consensus lynch, it can often mean that the lynch is a miss because if it weren't a miss then mafia would be actively trying to save their partner. This isn't always the case, because mafia may be bussing, mafia may simply not know what to do, mafia may be inactive, or other more contextual things. It's also less of a thing when there are only 2 mafia.

People were talking about no one defending Oka, but that's not really how you should look at it. Mafia defend town lynches too. And they don't always defend their partners. If no one is defending OkaPoka, then you have to look at who is pushing on him, who is simply abstaining, and why. Are any of the people pushing him bussing? Are any of the people abstaining acting like they know he's a mislynch? Are any of the people off wagon doing anything to try to dismantle the wagon?

That's kind of what I've been looking at and I think the way FF jumped on deserves a look in the world where Oka is town because it was a kind of slimy thing where he built up to it by arguing with Oka then, when he had the fuel, he pounced. There wasn't a natural progression there from his previous read on Oka, I don't think. I think the way that Quick has been idly sitting in thread and doing things like throwing shade on Trinity makes sense in a world where Oka/Trinity is v/v and he wants to capitalize on Oka's townflip by pushing a Trinity lynch. I think Iceman's treatment of the wagon is just super town all around, and I think WhyMafia's treatment of the wagon has been pretty good too.

You didn't say anything about Aragorn, why not?

[Quick]

Vote: Quick

You gotta start spewing reads and actually putting time into this game if you're town.


pedit because he's been V/LA, as has Flicker.

Pfft. Whatever.

IDK what you mean by Spewing reads, but I've given plenty of them.

[Quick]

Oops I forgot to post my reads.

nancy ~ )) - Iceman, Flicker --- )) -- Trinity ) -- WhyMafia -- % )) > -- Eragon ) ---- FF, Quick )) ---------- OkaPoka )) ~

I don't typically do this, but I think voting up quick is going down the wrong path and we don't really have time to go down the wrong path when we are approaching the deadline.

I am pretty sure Quick has put time into this game and he has given us some form of reads, it's distributed over a wide number of posts.
More specifically he is actively scumreading Formerfish and has interacted with him, but Formerfish hasn't shown up for about two days so Quick can't do much there. Quick is also expressing doubt and seems to be poking around with Trinity on the side, so there is that.

We can continue to sort Quick, but I don't think that we should lynch him today.

This is extremely out of character for you. It's particularly strange considering Quick's stance on you is that we should just sort you with night actions.

Quick isn't expressing doubt on Trinity, he's shading her. And he's posturing, too, because on this page he goes back to say that she's probably just a newbie, which just spews her town if he is mafia. And his "scumread" on FF consists of "lol you're scum", "you're scummy", "you're wrong", "you're bad", "you're a liar" and various repetitions of the same.

Yup, got me...

[Quick]

Spoiler: Reasons I think FF is Scum

FF, you said ISOs are NAI. Is catching up AI?

It depends. Like the game I linked I SR Ceejay based on how he replaced into the game. I wouldnt say it would be a huge dent, but someone legit not catching up in a game this small would ping me. Making an attempt, or intimating that you are, is NAI to me because its optimal play from either side. And you don't even necessarily have to do it, you just would have to worry about slipping up later after saying you were caught up. If scum have day chat then they would have all the relevant info for you there.

You know, after thinking about it, this seems like a completely different kind of read that you are describing besides simply getting caught up. You are describing how Ceejay was inconsistent in a Scummy way, and I'd wager that this kind of thing actually has little to do with whether he was caught up or not. It's a Scummy contradiction that could happen whether he was getting caught up or not.. It's not specific to getting caught up necessarily.

Vote: Quick

I don't believe that your read on Iceman is real. You're saying that you disagree with him or he is bad therefore he is mafia, which is nonsense. Your entire case on him feels like shade and I don't like it one bit. Please catch up and provide thoughts on the game.

Are you getting a scum caught for reasons they dont believe they should have been caught kinda vibe coming off of Quick right now?

Uh-huh. It looks like you like that argument.

it feels like it was phrased in a way that allows iceman to build upon it later to attack nancy w/o really needing to build a legitimate in game case on her

like instead of saying something about nancy feels off, feels like she is controlling town he goes with the proposition that cannot really be argued against

I don't think you're insane for thinking this.

But like, lmao, it doesn't feel very intuitive for mafia to come in the way he did and talk in detail about his idea that we should lynch the IC in lylo. He has to know that will look bad and if he's mafia he has to already be feeling like he wants me very dead with the way my thread presence is, so it's like, not a thing that he's ever actually going to cash in on and he would know that. I also kind of feel like it would take a bit more of an experienced player to try to use that as a way to break down trust, and kinda think he'd be intimidated by me given how he's a newb and newbscum generally suck up to the IC.

This kinda bugs me. IDK why people keep saying Ice is a newb when he's not.

How is not a newbie? He has finished 3 newbie games, is in his 4th and is playing in his first non-newbie game concurrently.

If he isn't a newbie then he is like a half step above being one. Not sure why you feel the need to try and bolster your SRs position there, maybe you think it gives your case on him more weight. Your case is bad by the way. It basically comes down to the fact that you dont personally think what you did was scummy. You fail to take into account that the way you think is not the way everyone thinks. Some people think in ways completely different from you. If I also found the way you came in scummy, as well as a few others in this game it appears, dont you think that maybe, just fucking maybe, that they have experience where scum does just what you did. And I know you responded that what Ceejay did, in the game I used as an example, is different from what you did/are doing, but that misses the point.

The point is that people can get scum read for the fucking flimsiest of reasons. When scum get caught by reasons they think they shouldnt be caught for they usually act the way you are right now.

Which is how?

I didn't see that Ice had only played 3-4 games, what I saw is that he was playing in games with 20 PRs. Those kinds of games are generally reserved for people who completely know what they are doing or completely have no idea what they are doing and I assumed the former.

It's nice that you know people think in different ways, but that's not why I am SRing Ice.

They (in general, which is how you are phrasing this) could have had the experience where a Scum person didn't catch up, but that wasn't my impression of Ice's reason for voting me. It seemed theory based. As far as nanacy's vote is concerned, I've already addressed that.

I do have a question though. Are you going to actually vote me or are you just gunna shade me?

Here is your OMGUS, bud.

VOTE: FF

tbh I feel like you are just trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake. Plus that excuse about trying to catch up when you were pretty much already there was pretty bad.

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I completely fail to see what you are trying to point out here.

Seriously man? Like 10 posts before WM asked you to show work on your read and you told him to iso the guy and think for himself. Then you ask someone else to show the reasons they have come up with a read.

Why should they if you refuse to show your work?

Its hypocritical.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

How do you expect him to explain his scum read on Oka? Hes going to have to show the posts that made him feel icky inside and then explain them to you to see if you feel icky as well. If we all just automatically felt the same way about posts then this game would be a lot easier than it is. Asking why someone is scum inherently is asking the other person to give examples.

I am going off the assumption that you want to make sure I am not full of shit in what I am saying. I don't need to provide examples for that if you can figure it out yourself if what I am saying has merit or not.

Like listen man. I'm not going to tell you how to play, you do you. Heres the thing though, when I see anti-town play, I say something. WM asked you a legit question in response to something you said. Your response to his question was to go reread himself with your vague statement in mind and to see what post pinged him and then you would let him know if those were the right ones?

And you claim that that is the simple way of doing it. Simple to me would be you quoting a few posts where Oka exemplified the behaviors you spoke to him exhibiting as evidence to the group to further your own read.

How is that Anti-Town? Just because YOU don't play that way doesn't mean it's Anti-Town. As far as "how is he supposed to explain?" You don't really need to give examples to do that - in fact, he could pretty much just do exactly what I did, which is give a rundown of how things have gone in general. Maybe it's that I am more big picture than you are. Having an overall understanding is better than specifics anyways.

@formerfish what are your reads on trinity/iceman/eragon?

Scum lean, town lean, null town.

Something in her post just seem desperate to me. I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me. The push on me is a bad one since she is using meta for the most part and the meta isnt accurate.

I like the way Iceman plays, it reminds me a lot of myself as a younger town player. He says whats on his mind and lays in the bed he makes when he has to answer for something. I also see a progression in him from the games weve played. This is where I see his town game now from the last 2, I dont see him as scum here.

Eragon, a lot of what he posts seems perfunctory. Other things show good signs. Wouldnt lynch here today.

Holy Fuck, you're so full of shit!

When asked about how you are reading someone you go straight to overall play, not examples. This is a pretty blatant contradiction of play, bud.

Two examples of each that I found in like 2 min.

Holy shit this is like pulling teeth with you. Which ones are examples of ones you liked and which are the ones you didnt. Why to both?

It's like you are not even paying attention at this point. WhyMafia asked why I was reading Oka the way I was. I said I felt some of their questions seemed really Town motivated but that I thought some of their pushes were suspect. Pretty sure you can figure out the rest. Pretty sure you are just being this difficult because Oka is who you want to lynch, which is incredibly Scummy if correct.

The constant defensiveness and your tone add to the whole ensemble. I might be misreading your posts though and you dont have a tone, dont know you well enough to figure between the two right now.

Since when is defensiveness a Scum tell? It's not, you're just trying to push this narrative because I disagree with you.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

Im pretty sure there is nothing I can do with you right now that you wouldnt scum read. But if you want to act like what you are saying is right then go for it. I see how you twice failed to acknowledge that the thing you are "getting me" for in that post isnt even a thing. Oka asking me for reads and me not giving specific posts to back up each one is not the same an WM asking you to explain a specific read you had. But keep pushing your narrative, I get it. Rolling scum in a game you replace into sucks, but this is nothing personal, if it werent you another body would be in that scumseat.

LOL, you are such Scum.

How is that not a contradiction?

Here's another contradiction in FF's play: They say I am confbiasing him as Scum.. Even if I am (I'm not) He's doing the same fucking thing to me!

Because Oka hasnt asked for it yet. Its not that you didnt do it, its that you wouldnt do it when someone asked. If Oka needs more info from me on hose reads to satisfy his curiosity then he can ask. If I refuse then itd be like you and scummy. However that situation hasnt taken place yet so...

Also legit question. When you find out im town, where do you go from there?

Ninja- naw bro, using confbias to add to my scum read of you is not the same.

You are the one who was pushing me for not giving examples. So what makes you think who asked you what would be satisfied without examples? On the one hand, you are arguing that I am Scummy for not providing examples, which shows that you agree examples are necessary, otherwise there is no reason to bring it up in the first place. On the other hand, you are not providing examples yourself and basically representing that an overview of play is how you personally operate. So then why am I Scummy for operating in the same way that you are? You are looking for EXCUSES to SR me.

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

Ugh. I hate this post. The idea put forth in this post is so very very bad. You don't lynch people because of their title, you lynch them because they are Scum, period.

it's not the pagecount and number of posts that makes it slow its the lack of scumhunting and wagon forming which im at fault for but nonetheless its giving a slow impression

Lack of scum hunting? Its day 1 and we are on page, what, 8? We are still very much in the feeling each other out stage for anyone to have really strong feelings about wanting to hang anyone. Shit we can have hunches and we can have inklings, but if you are looking for a full blown case this early then you are scum and need to die.

Also, at you talking about the lack of wagons forming when you commented on not wanting to join the one on flicker and would rather do your own thing over there.

So many things wrong with this post...

You should be Scum hunting regardless of what Day it is, for one.

Wanting wagons to form and not wanting to be on ANY wagon isn't a contradiction, seriously.

So no, my case on FF doesn't amount to simply repeating he is Scum over an over, @nancy.

Also, I see you are letting FF off the hook for doing meta (based on very few games) but telling everyone else not to do that. Is there a reason you feel FF is exempt from this?

[Quick]

And as we approach the deadline, the chances of a successful counterwagon to my own are going to be diminishing pretty rapidly.

We are going to need a spike in scumhunting, hoping I can get Formerfish's reaction to my post on Iceman even if he blows up on me. And I'm also hoping I can get trinity to get me some actual examples of my responses to questions.

I think that there is nothing to gain from going after Ice because of the IC thing. I get what he is saying and if you are choosing not to then thats on you. Iceman is not scum here.

But you are SRing Oka for that, so let's talk about it???

[Quick]

Spoiler: @Quick

FF, you said ISOs are NAI. Is catching up AI?

It depends. Like the game I linked I SR Ceejay based on how he replaced into the game. I wouldnt say it would be a huge dent, but someone legit not catching up in a game this small would ping me. Making an attempt, or intimating that you are, is NAI to me because its optimal play from either side. And you don't even necessarily have to do it, you just would have to worry about slipping up later after saying you were caught up. If scum have day chat then they would have all the relevant info for you there.

You know, after thinking about it, this seems like a completely different kind of read that you are describing besides simply getting caught up. You are describing how Ceejay was inconsistent in a Scummy way, and I'd wager that this kind of thing actually has little to do with whether he was caught up or not. It's a Scummy contradiction that could happen whether he was getting caught up or not.. It's not specific to getting caught up necessarily.

This quote contains no reasoning about why FF is mafia. You asked him a theory question, and he answered.

Vote: Quick

I don't believe that your read on Iceman is real. You're saying that you disagree with him or he is bad therefore he is mafia, which is nonsense. Your entire case on him feels like shade and I don't like it one bit. Please catch up and provide thoughts on the game.

Are you getting a scum caught for reasons they dont believe they should have been caught kinda vibe coming off of Quick right now?

Uh-huh. It looks like you like that argument.

This is shade/doubtcasting, by you, which is scummy. I happen to think that the post you quoted is scummy, but again, no reasoning from you why FF is mafia in this quote.

it feels like it was phrased in a way that allows iceman to build upon it later to attack nancy w/o really needing to build a legitimate in game case on her

like instead of saying something about nancy feels off, feels like she is controlling town he goes with the proposition that cannot really be argued against

I don't think you're insane for thinking this.

But like, lmao, it doesn't feel very intuitive for mafia to come in the way he did and talk in detail about his idea that we should lynch the IC in lylo. He has to know that will look bad and if he's mafia he has to already be feeling like he wants me very dead with the way my thread presence is, so it's like, not a thing that he's ever actually going to cash in on and he would know that. I also kind of feel like it would take a bit more of an experienced player to try to use that as a way to break down trust, and kinda think he'd be intimidated by me given how he's a newb and newbscum generally suck up to the IC.

This kinda bugs me. IDK why people keep saying Ice is a newb when he's not.

How is not a newbie? He has finished 3 newbie games, is in his 4th and is playing in his first non-newbie game concurrently.

If he isn't a newbie then he is like a half step above being one. Not sure why you feel the need to try and bolster your SRs position there, maybe you think it gives your case on him more weight. Your case is bad by the way. It basically comes down to the fact that you dont personally think what you did was scummy. You fail to take into account that the way you think is not the way everyone thinks. Some people think in ways completely different from you. If I also found the way you came in scummy, as well as a few others in this game it appears, dont you think that maybe, just fucking maybe, that they have experience where scum does just what you did. And I know you responded that what Ceejay did, in the game I used as an example, is different from what you did/are doing, but that misses the point.

The point is that people can get scum read for the fucking flimsiest of reasons. When scum get caught by reasons they think they shouldnt be caught for they usually act the way you are right now.

Which is how?

I didn't see that Ice had only played 3-4 games, what I saw is that he was playing in games with 20 PRs. Those kinds of games are generally reserved for people who completely know what they are doing or completely have no idea what they are doing and I assumed the former.

It's nice that you know people think in different ways, but that's not why I am SRing Ice.

They (in general, which is how you are phrasing this) could have had the experience where a Scum person didn't catch up, but that wasn't my impression of Ice's reason for voting me. It seemed theory based. As far as nanacy's vote is concerned, I've already addressed that.

I do have a question though. Are you going to actually vote me or are you just gunna shade me?

No reasoning from you. This isn't a read. The way you're taunting him is gross.

Here is your OMGUS, bud.

VOTE: FF

tbh I feel like you are just trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake. Plus that excuse about trying to catch up when you were pretty much already there was pretty bad.

Okay. Explain how the second thing is scummy?

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I completely fail to see what you are trying to point out here.

Seriously man? Like 10 posts before WM asked you to show work on your read and you told him to iso the guy and think for himself. Then you ask someone else to show the reasons they have come up with a read.

Why should they if you refuse to show your work?

Its hypocritical.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

Where did he say that to WM? I can't find it. I also side with FF on this one and think you were misunderstanding.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

How do you expect him to explain his scum read on Oka? Hes going to have to show the posts that made him feel icky inside and then explain them to you to see if you feel icky as well. If we all just automatically felt the same way about posts then this game would be a lot easier than it is. Asking why someone is scum inherently is asking the other person to give examples.

I am going off the assumption that you want to make sure I am not full of shit in what I am saying. I don't need to provide examples for that if you can figure it out yourself if what I am saying has merit or not.

Like listen man. I'm not going to tell you how to play, you do you. Heres the thing though, when I see anti-town play, I say something. WM asked you a legit question in response to something you said. Your response to his question was to go reread himself with your vague statement in mind and to see what post pinged him and then you would let him know if those were the right ones?

And you claim that that is the simple way of doing it. Simple to me would be you quoting a few posts where Oka exemplified the behaviors you spoke to him exhibiting as evidence to the group to further your own read.

How is that Anti-Town? Just because YOU don't play that way doesn't mean it's Anti-Town. As far as "how is he supposed to explain?" You don't really need to give examples to do that - in fact, he could pretty much just do exactly what I did, which is give a rundown of how things have gone in general. Maybe it's that I am more big picture than you are. Having an overall understanding is better than specifics anyways.

So, you were being anti-town, FF called you on that, and this makes him mafia because _______.

@formerfish what are your reads on trinity/iceman/eragon?

Scum lean, town lean, null town.

Something in her post just seem desperate to me. I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me. The push on me is a bad one since she is using meta for the most part and the meta isnt accurate.

I like the way Iceman plays, it reminds me a lot of myself as a younger town player. He says whats on his mind and lays in the bed he makes when he has to answer for something. I also see a progression in him from the games weve played. This is where I see his town game now from the last 2, I dont see him as scum here.

Eragon, a lot of what he posts seems perfunctory. Other things show good signs. Wouldnt lynch here today.

Holy Fuck, you're so full of shit!

When asked about how you are reading someone you go straight to overall play, not examples. This is a pretty blatant contradiction of play, bud.

This is a legalistic interpretation of FF's earlier statements and basically equivalent a strawman argument. Not scummy, and even if he were contradicting himself, you haven't shown why that's scummy.

Two examples of each that I found in like 2 min.

Holy shit this is like pulling teeth with you. Which ones are examples of ones you liked and which are the ones you didnt. Why to both?

It's like you are not even paying attention at this point. WhyMafia asked why I was reading Oka the way I was. I said I felt some of their questions seemed really Town motivated but that I thought some of their pushes were suspect. Pretty sure you can figure out the rest. Pretty sure you are just being this difficult because Oka is who you want to lynch, which is incredibly Scummy if correct.

The constant defensiveness and your tone add to the whole ensemble. I might be misreading your posts though and you dont have a tone, dont know you well enough to figure between the two right now.

Since when is defensiveness a Scum tell? It's not, you're just trying to push this narrative because I disagree with you.

I'm assuming the last sentence is the only part of this that you mean to be relevant? I don't think it's insane that FF would think to read into your defensiveness. I think you're trying to portray FF as an insane person and I think it's stupid.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

So, FF thinks something is scummy that you don't think is scummy and this makes him mafia because _______.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

Im pretty sure there is nothing I can do with you right now that you wouldnt scum read. But if you want to act like what you are saying is right then go for it. I see how you twice failed to acknowledge that the thing you are "getting me" for in that post isnt even a thing. Oka asking me for reads and me not giving specific posts to back up each one is not the same an WM asking you to explain a specific read you had. But keep pushing your narrative, I get it. Rolling scum in a game you replace into sucks, but this is nothing personal, if it werent you another body would be in that scumseat.

LOL, you are such Scum.

How is that not a contradiction?

There are reasons why this post from FF is scummy and none of them have to do with the contradiction that you claim he made. There's no reasoning in this quote.

Here's another contradiction in FF's play: They say I am confbiasing him as Scum.. Even if I am (I'm not) He's doing the same fucking thing to me!

This makes him mafia because _____.

Because Oka hasnt asked for it yet. Its not that you didnt do it, its that you wouldnt do it when someone asked. If Oka needs more info from me on hose reads to satisfy his curiosity then he can ask. If I refuse then itd be like you and scummy. However that situation hasnt taken place yet so...

Also legit question. When you find out im town, where do you go from there?

Ninja- naw bro, using confbias to add to my scum read of you is not the same.

You are the one who was pushing me for not giving examples. So what makes you think who asked you what would be satisfied without examples? On the one hand, you are arguing that I am Scummy for not providing examples, which shows that you agree examples are necessary, otherwise there is no reason to bring it up in the first place. On the other hand, you are not providing examples yourself and basically representing that an overview of play is how you personally operate. So then why am I Scummy for operating in the same way that you are? You are looking for EXCUSES to SR me.

I think it's pretty valid for FF to scumread you for not talking about your reads. You're trying to make it about the specific way in which you or he talks about reads, which is irrelevant. You bogged the discussion down in inanities then scumread him for being bogged down in inanities. It's a neat rhetorical trick, but it's stupid.

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

Ugh. I hate this post. The idea put forth in this post is so very very bad. You don't lynch people because of their title, you lynch them because they are Scum, period.

FF is bad, which makes him mafia because _______.

FF's point is actually that it's not unreasonable for Iceman to have the idea that he had, and that he dislikes Oka's vote as a result. You're misconstruing his argument. Sure, make the argument that this is scummy of FF because something something TMI reads, but don't pretend that he's saying it's okay to PL the IC and scumread for that, that's just wrong.

it's not the pagecount and number of posts that makes it slow its the lack of scumhunting and wagon forming which im at fault for but nonetheless its giving a slow impression

Lack of scum hunting? Its day 1 and we are on page, what, 8? We are still very much in the feeling each other out stage for anyone to have really strong feelings about wanting to hang anyone. Shit we can have hunches and we can have inklings, but if you are looking for a full blown case this early then you are scum and need to die.

Also, at you talking about the lack of wagons forming when you commented on not wanting to join the one on flicker and would rather do your own thing over there.

So many things wrong with this post...

You should be Scum hunting regardless of what Day it is, for one.

Wanting wagons to form and not wanting to be on ANY wagon isn't a contradiction, seriously.

FF had been scumhunting. He was only saying that Oka didn't need to try to rev the game up, and that he thought it would be unrealistic for anyone to have a case-worthy scumread that early in the game. Why is this post scummy, Quick? You haven't put forth any reasoning, you're just saying that FF is wrong/bad/scummy.

Sure, I think a lot of the stuff you quoted from FF is pretty scummy, and guess what? I'm scumreading FF. But I think your reasons for thinking he's scum are pretty drab at best, horrific at worst, mostly nonexistent as far as what you have put into this thread, and I think you can do better.

Also, I see you are letting FF off the hook for doing meta (based on very few games) but telling everyone else not to do that. Is there a reason you feel FF is exempt from this?

I'm not. Why do you think that I am?

First off, I'm not having a quote war with you, I'm just not. Secondly, you are confbiasing me HARD right now. You realize pretty much everything I said about FF being Scummy you COMPLETELY dismissed right? Like WTAF is this? I cannot see you actually thinking this.

As far as you not having a problem with FF doing meta in such a shallow way, I can search your ISO for "Meta" if you want, but I am pretty sure you have just let FF go to town on that for no apparent reason whatsoever. If I am wrong about this, please quote where you told FF not to do that in this game or something similar at least.

[Quick]

Votecount 1.20

OkaPoka (3) -

IcemanCh, WhyMafia, Formerfish

TrinityNZ (2) -

OkaPoka, Flicker

Formerfish (1) -

Quick

Not Voting (3) -

Eragon, TrinityNZ, nancy

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

Prodding Formerfish.

So Trinity. Is the main reason you switched on Oka is because of his relentless push on you? That he wouldn't risk it as town? Because by that logic, as scum, couldn't he do that, and undertake that defense? That's just WIFOM (Hope I used that correctly ;P ). Knowing that you'd town read him bc no scum would be that brazen sounds like a wonderful idea for scum to just do it anyway

Yes, you could be right, this is one reason why I’m feeling so confused right now, the longer this day goes on, the more confused I get.

After more thinking about this, I’m going to vote for Oka. I have flip flopped a couple of times with Oka. I started off thinking he was scum because of his tenacious and strong (and what I saw as unfounded) push on me, as an easy target. Then I thought that he wouldn’t do that as scum, because it would look too obvious. But yes, I agree this could be WIFOM, and it makes sense, so I’m putting my vote back on him.

I’m also having similar doubts about FormerFish. Again, I started off thinking he was mafia, and then changed my mind. Now I’m leaning back towards him being scum as he’s not feeling to me like he’s really in the game as much as he should be, and taking a bit of back seat and letting others do the scum hunt work, which doesn’t seem like him.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: OkaPoka I think that’s L-1

Coincidence or no? Not sure at this point.

Let's try this:

(was going to vote Trinity here but looks like nancy beat me to it.

And see what happens...

[Quick]

And as we approach the deadline, the chances of a successful counterwagon to my own are going to be diminishing pretty rapidly.

We are going to need a spike in scumhunting, hoping I can get Formerfish's reaction to my post on Iceman even if he blows up on me. And I'm also hoping I can get trinity to get me some actual examples of my responses to questions.

I think that there is nothing to gain from going after Ice because of the IC thing. I get what he is saying and if you are choosing not to then thats on you. Iceman is not scum here.

But you are SRing Oka for that, so let's talk about it???

Ok, what would you like to talk about? I have a strong enough town read on Ice to think that someone pushing him off some bullshit is scummy. Questions?

How is the fact that someone disagrees with the stance Ice has made/Thinking it's Scummy to put the idea forward to lynch the IC only after 2 Days have passed, in which case, you should seriously be considering lynching the IC just because they are alive, actually Scummy? Explain that to me because I am not sure I have that nailed down at this point.

[Quick]

I was skimming through Trinity’s ISO, because I wanted to see their progression on me being their top scum…

In 671 they said they had me as an original townlean, but then moved down to null because my activity tapered off

On top of this, they have talked a lot about their activity being down and that they need time, but then they move me down to null because I lost activity…

Also, in 1157 they mark me as MOST LIKELY to flip mafia, without talking about me ONCE from 671 until 1157

I dont understand this progression at all and it irks me that someone moves me from town > Null because activity, then moves me to top scum without talking about me once.




I am likely gonna do an oka ISO skim, unless there is something else important, i ahve precisely 45 minutes to be active

You should probably ISO either me or FF and give thoughts there, Plz and thank you.

[Quick]

First off, I'm not having a quote war with you, I'm just not. Secondly, you are confbiasing me HARD right now. You realize pretty much everything I said about FF being Scummy you COMPLETELY dismissed right? Like WTAF is this? I cannot see you actually thinking this.

As far as you not having a problem with FF doing meta in such a shallow way, I can search your ISO for "Meta" if you want, but I am pretty sure you have just let FF go to town on that for no apparent reason whatsoever. If I am wrong about this, please quote where you told FF not to do that in this game or something similar at least.

This is a legit question: Do you just want to 1v1 me? I know Oka already propositioned nancy with the same ask, but I think we might just have to. I don't mind being scumread, but something about you or your posting makes me want to

I am more than willing to make this about just you and I so that one of us is out of the game today.

Dude, I already know what you are doing and I am not going to let it bother me. I think you are so full of shit it's not even funny and I think that because you are saying I am trying to make this just between us so fucking wrong it's honestly unfucking believable.

Like I really REALLY can't see the shit you are doing as a legit thought. It just so SOOO looks like you are trying to get under my skin and piss me off. I am not pissed at the moment, but I might get there if you keep this kind of shit up where you are saying I am trying to just make this about me and you. I am NOT just trying to make this about me and I can just sense the ooze of bull shit coming from you for saying this.

[Quick]

So, no?

WTF are you even talking about?!?!?

[Quick]

Okay there is no way town!formerfish wants to stir the pot this much.

I don't really understand this. Explain please.

[Quick]

Can you both please stop. I don't care what either of your alignments are, just stop. If you can't interact civilly with each other, stop interacting.

Relax, the insults haven't even started from FF yet.

[Quick]

VOTE: Quick

ninja- but scum!fish actively gladiates on day 1?

nancy, I would love if you stopped making it seem like I am attacking him. His attitude towards me the entire game has been off. I really think the only way we have forward is for one of us to go. He thinks I am scum and I think he is. So best way to settle this and move on is to lynch one of us.

Holy

Fuck

,

dude are you for real right now?

[Quick]

VOTE: Quick

ninja- but scum!fish actively gladiates on day 1?

nancy, I would love if you stopped making it seem like I am attacking him. His attitude towards me the entire game has been off. I really think the only way we have forward is for one of us to go. He thinks I am scum and I think he is. So best way to settle this and move on is to lynch one of us.

Holy

Fuck

,

dude are you for real right now?

Very much so.

Look, bro... I am trying to prevent a fucking meltdown here.
What you are suggesting is exactly what I am trying to PREVENT...
I don't think a fucking 1v1 with you at this point is at all productive.
IDK why you are insisting on pissing me off, but I am so done engaging with you.

@Formerfish

How can you be an accurate judge of my day 1 meta then?

How am I misrepping Iceman?

Answer the man's question, k thanks!

And that's probably all I have to say to/about FF for a while.

[Quick]

Everyone in the game needs to take a stance on the Trinity lynch. I personally don't think there's almost ever a world where she's town here after her readflip on Oka. I think her flip clears Oka and probably Quick. I think her FF read is weird but I have 100 eyes emoji at 569 and don't think I would clear him as a partner just because she was scumreading him and buddying people who were voting for him.

pedit FF, why are you completely ignoring Trinity's post?

pedit Quick cut it out. I am reporting your posts.

What the fuck are you reporting my post for? Anger? Pretty sure that's not breaking any rules.

[Quick]

What the fuck are you reporting my post for? Anger? Pretty sure that's not breaking any rules.

You are making the word "fuck" size 40 or whatever and are being abusive. It's not okay to treat people like this.

How am I being abusive!!!!

Really, how??? I don't understand how on earth you can think this!!! It's insane! I haven't used a single ad hominem, I haven't told anyone to fuck off even. All I have done is use the word fuck. That's NOT breaking any rules as far as I can see. Really? You want me to get banned for saying fuck? Why?

[Quick]

Look, bro... I am trying to prevent a fucking meltdown here.
What you are suggesting is exactly what I am trying to PREVENT...
I don't think a fucking 1v1 with you at this point is at all productive.
IDK why you are insisting on pissing me off, but I am so done engaging with you.

Do you think I am scum?
Cause if you do and you are town then why not 1v1 me? We obviously are not going to be able to coexist in this game.
Im not trying to piss you off, that is just where you seem to reside when it comes to me apparently.

nancy, are you seeing this rn?

And you are reporting MY posts for being abusive? Wut?

[Quick]

What the fuck are you reporting my post for? Anger? Pretty sure that's not breaking any rules.

You are making the word "fuck" size 40 or whatever and are being abusive. It's not okay to treat people like this.

How am I being abusive!!!!

Really, how??? I don't understand how on earth you can think this!!! It's insane! I haven't used a single ad hominem, I haven't told anyone to fuck off even. All I have done is use the word fuck. That's NOT breaking any rules as far as I can see. Really? You want me to get banned for saying fuck? Why?

Would you shout at someone, asking how the fuck they believe or think the things that they do? I really don't think so.

If you don't understand that it's not okay to treat people this way, I don't know what to tell you.

He's intentionally trying to piss me off!?!?! Do you not see that?

[Quick]

What the fuck are you reporting my post for? Anger? Pretty sure that's not breaking any rules.

You are making the word "fuck" size 40 or whatever and are being abusive. It's not okay to treat people like this.

How am I being abusive!!!!

Really, how??? I don't understand how on earth you can think this!!! It's insane! I haven't used a single ad hominem, I haven't told anyone to fuck off even. All I have done is use the word fuck. That's NOT breaking any rules as far as I can see. Really? You want me to get banned for saying fuck? Why?

I didnt take anything he said as abusive. I think that he is scum and is trying to push his wincon forward, im not going to fault him for that. I think that his overly antagonistic stance towards me is evidence of his agenda.

I've gone through a lot of therapy to learn how NOT to go over the edge. I am someone who tends to get heated in the game. Clearly, you know this or you wouldn't be antagonizing me like this.

I think it's kind of rotten of you anyways to try and get under my skin to form a read on me. I used to do that too, until I saw that people actually don't like that too much, *shock*

[Quick]

He's intentionally trying to piss me off!?!?! Do you not see that?

Not really? Even if he is, you don't have to respond the way you are.

People have emotions nancy. IDK why you don't get that, it's pretty simple.

[Quick]

@Mod

, Can we get a VC, please?

[Quick]

Soo....... I feel like OKa is a bad or scum. Not sure which.

I also think Trinity is town. She's new and clunky but, I've played a few games with her and nothing seems scummy so far. I've seen her play scum and.... well you'd know.

I really want to vote quick and get quick lynched. To me only scum would come in and throw up their hands and say I'm not reading anything. Here's a vote count. Here's my reads. Don't worry those cause my reads are garbage because I didn't actually read anything. If town came in and refused to read the game they wouldn't then turn around and give reads.

I also think Oka is pushing mis-lynches. Trying to snag the easiest ones. Weird that he's not jumping on Quick as that seems the easiest to me at the moment.

SRing me because I am not caught up is a horrible reason to SR someone. Like, seriously?

I think I'm a bit lost at the moment. I've lost my town read on Nancy..... Please Nancy come back to town. I wanna believe. She seems to have just faded a bit and is just poking holes in everything. Not necessarily a bad thing but, doesn't seem like the way things started at first.

Trinity, Go take a look at some of FFs other games. His play this game seems exactly like his town play. I'll go looking for one of his scum games and compare though because I've only played with town!FF.

Quick, I'm not sure what to ask you..... Have your reads changed? Not sure if the answer is worth it.

Oka, I don't mean to restate this but, you really seem to be looking for the easiest lynches instead of looking for scum. I don't like it. Also, what do you think about quick?

FF, do you think that Oka is a better lynch then Quick and why?

I am still developing reads. I probably will not get fully caught up and you saying that is Scummy is odd to me.

I agree with not-catching up being NAI, and that Iceman way over-reacted, but it kinda seemed like new-town perspective.
I’d say the whole interaction is likely NAI

I'm not a newbie....

SRing me because I am not caught up is a horrible reason to SR someone. Like, seriously?

Lets not get things twisted here. No one is scum reading you because you arent "caught up." People are scum reading you because you said that you were not going to catch up.

That's the same fucking thing, brah.

I'll do ISOs but I'm not going to read 400 posts when probably at least half of them are RVS anyways. I'm engaged now. I don't see people bringing up stuff from 5 pages ago anyway so it's not like I am missing a whole lot.

I still need to look at Stan1ey's progression.

I posted this as an overall of FF/Quick’s spat and shit
I am not gonna read it because its irritating, but I can easily say its never S v S, but T v S and T v T are possibilites.
I think T v S is the strongest possbility, but its not 100% for me

Oh, I agree it's not TvT. Clearly, it's TvS.

FF, you said ISOs are NAI. Is catching up AI?

Good point.

No one else said anything about this...

Vote: Quick

I don't believe that your read on Iceman is real.

OK.

You're saying that you disagree with him or he is bad therefore he is mafia, which is nonsense.

No, I am not saying any of that. Reread my case on Ice. I said he's Scum for pushing something as Scummy that is NAI.

Your entire case on him feels like shade and I don't like it one bit. Please catch up and provide thoughts on the game.

Have you not seen someone make a case on someone before or what? What about my case on him is Shade as opposed to an actual read? Shade to me is where you try and make someone look like Scum without voting them in hopes of changing someone in the game's mind on them or just weakening people's read on them as Town. I'm not doing that considering I am actually voting him for his shit reasons for voting me.

Why the hell should I do what you say? Frankly, I don't give a shit if you don't think my read on Ice is "real" I'm voting a SR get over it. You've talked about how "tone reads mean nothing" well you saying my read on Ice isn't real is basically the same fucking thing. Unless you can actually point to examples about how my read on him is "fake" I don't want to hear it.

I feel like you are just SRing me because I made an abrupt change of vote on someone. That's not Scummy - especially when I am still developing reads.

I don't really feel like getting blackmailed by votes just because I haven't fully caught up. Clearly, you're one of those people who isn't experienced enough to know that some people just play from where they replace in. Yeah, I know I am not doing myself any favors by coming across as so abrasive, but I don't really care at this point since the only legitimate (and I use the term loosely) reason why anyone has said I am Scummy is because I haven't fully caught up yet.

I can’t place my finger on it but this vote pings me

Try. Why does it ping you?

OK, I'm caught up, AMA

/S

Seriously though I really hate being blackmailed to catch up in a game. Shit is just not right.

In other news, not sold on FF being Town. He got early TRs from people and that seems to have stuck for not very good reasons I don't think. FF is a good player, not ready to clear them just based on... Whatever people were TRing him for, because from what I saw, didn't see a whole lot of Town tells and def felt like I was strongly disagreeing with some of the stuff he's said so far.

Disagreeing /=/ scum
And thinking anyone that disagrees with you is scum, is scummy

That wasn't my poit at all.

I am having second thoughts on Ice. Reason I was SRing him before is because a lot of his thought process in terms of reads is just plain wrong, but maybe he is actually just a newb and doesn't know any better.

Ex. Him saying nancy poking holes in everything is Scummy... That's actually pretty damn Townie IMO. His Thought process is overly black and white which is not something I would expect from someone playing in games with 20 PRs. I can explain this, but don't feel like it. I have a lot of experience all over the web so just trust me on this. Still, he has this kind of ignorance that I can't help comes from Town.

I think Quick was trying to find a way to back out of the ice SR, because calling someone towny because “ignorance that comes from town” is one of the weakest things I can see.

Quick Had been strongly SR’ing Ice, and could be seen as a hard OMGUS and trying to Lynch a newbie, in which case would throw considerable suspicion on Quick if Ice flipped town, so Quick backed off the read a bit with an easy read.

Uhh... So I can't reevaluate people? What's your read on Ice and what's my Scum motivation for changing the read?

I don't think Oka is a good choice for lynching this phase. I'd rather PRs deal with him.

>translation
Either: Oka is town and his Lynch will spew scum from pushes and stuff

Or: Oka is my scum buddy and we need time to kill and/or find the PR’s before my buddy is lynched.

I say this because only mafia and the PR’s have some indication of what the true role-list is, and its possible for their to be either,
Weak PR’s or
Only 1 town PR or
Im not sure on this but maybe non-invest PR
Meaning oka would be safer than being lynched D1

I don't see how being aware there are PRs in the game is AI.. I made an unconventionaly stance, sure, but why is that Scummy?

Reads

Town

nanacy, Trinity

Town Lean

Ice, Oka

Null

Flicker, WhyMafia, Eragon

Scum Lean

FF

I guess I can't really justify giving a Town Lean to WhyMafia. Flicker fits the same category, so out of my Nulls, Eragon is probably the Scummiest.

Fair

Not sure what you are saying "Fair" to.

DAMMIT YOU STOLE MY PAGE TOP
that's definitely evidence that you are scum *points finger*

Reusing the same joke is kinda Scummy.

Discuss.

No

It kinda is tho...

Because if you are scum, we lynch me today, you can nk one of those two and worst case scenario the other person is scum, nobody here is going to have the guts to oppose you and your bloc.

I didn't realize I was on the Town block…

This post pinged me a bit, seems like scum surprised that they are being TR’d by someone

What happened to the SvS theory between me and Oka?

Trinity is creeping up on me as being Scummy now. It seems whenever Trinity is asked something, they completely disappear. Very suspect.

@nancy, what do you mean when you say I am not doing anything? I feel like I have been pushing my SRs just fine, offering my reasoning on why I TR the people I do. What do you want from me?

Slight SR for someone’s activity, yuck.

It's not about how much activity, it's about when.

About the wagon stuff people were mentioning earlier...

If a wagon on one player continually dies, it can be a sign that they're mafia because their partners may be pushing against the lynch, and because mafia are more likely to support town lynches, making it easier for them to go through. This is why you should look for mafia on the wagon of a mafia lynch if the lynch seems to go through too easily.

If the thread dies when there is a consensus lynch, it can often mean that the lynch is a miss because if it weren't a miss then mafia would be actively trying to save their partner. This isn't always the case, because mafia may be bussing, mafia may simply not know what to do, mafia may be inactive, or other more contextual things. It's also less of a thing when there are only 2 mafia.

People were talking about no one defending Oka, but that's not really how you should look at it. Mafia defend town lynches too. And they don't always defend their partners. If no one is defending OkaPoka, then you have to look at who is pushing on him, who is simply abstaining, and why. Are any of the people pushing him bussing? Are any of the people abstaining acting like they know he's a mislynch? Are any of the people off wagon doing anything to try to dismantle the wagon?

That's kind of what I've been looking at and I think the way FF jumped on deserves a look in the world where Oka is town because it was a kind of slimy thing where he built up to it by arguing with Oka then, when he had the fuel, he pounced. There wasn't a natural progression there from his previous read on Oka, I don't think. I think the way that Quick has been idly sitting in thread and doing things like throwing shade on Trinity makes sense in a world where Oka/Trinity is v/v and he wants to capitalize on Oka's townflip by pushing a Trinity lynch. I think Iceman's treatment of the wagon is just super town all around, and I think WhyMafia's treatment of the wagon has been pretty good too.

You didn't say anything about Aragorn, why not?

GRRRR… you got my name wrong, you must be scum(joke)

But seriously, why only me out of anyone else that wasn’t mentioned

Because you were the only one I thought of who was so... outside of combat???

overall conclusion: Slight scum
i dont like the 180 backing off of some people
Wanting to engage with me yet not asking me questions is ???
as i read it, slight buddying of Oka,
all the shit with FF that i never read
OMGUS'ing because of being SR for not-catching up(while i agree with the sentiment, a strong OMGUS, especially on a noob, is wolfy, and i think you realized this and is why you backed off.)
and a few other individual pingy posts

You gave 1 example of me making a 180 (I think).
You are never around. I can't help that and neither can you. I am engaging with you now.
How does the buddying fit in with the SvS read between us?
I don't understand how it makes sense that an OMGUS is Scummy only against a newbie? Have you never SR a person who made a bad push on you before?

[Quick]

I have him unaligned with Iceman for the way he's incessantly picked apart Iceman's PL thing and the way Iceman has been pushing him.

What makes you think that isn't distancing? I don't do Pre-Flip, cuz it's really really bad and stuff, but if you ARE going to go that route (clearly I can't tell you how to play), then what exactly is stopping that from being SvS?

In any case, this is the EXACT reason why I generally HATE talking about SvS without a flip - because it's all pretty much WIFOM anyways and it doesn't mean shit until we actually get a Scum flip, so why bother talking about it now?

[Quick]

I am coming around on Trinity. Feeling more and more like that is Scum.

Going to consolidate the wagons at this point, hate unvoting FF, but we need stances on stuff.

(was going to vote Trinity here). No longer going to because Trinity is at L-1.

Consider this an intent to hammer.

[Quick]

nancy, it kinda seems like you have a stronger scum read on trinity, i could be wrong though. Am I?

My read on her is a big question mark at the moment. I think she's always town if Oka is mafia but if he's town then I just go back to the way she moved onto the wagon and there's a lot of scum motivation there I think. I think WhyMafia is probably right that it's not impossible for her to have had that readflip as town (I don't think the TWTBAW thing is anything), so no I don't scumread her more than Oka at all and the wagons also line up more with scum Oka worlds since I'm townreading everyone on the Oka wagon (except ?Trinity?) and I scumread both Oka/Eragon, who are pushing Trinity.

Your reads have changed... a lot... you need to work on that a bit. Pick a point of reference to work with and probably take notes.

[Quick]

Your reads have changed... a lot... you need to work on that a bit. Pick a point of reference to work with and probably take notes.

Reads changing is a bad thing because ______.

It makes you NOT dependable.

[Quick]

I have him unaligned with Iceman for the way he's incessantly picked apart Iceman's PL thing and the way Iceman has been pushing him.

What makes you think that isn't distancing? I don't do Pre-Flip, cuz it's really really bad and stuff, but if you ARE going to go that route (clearly I can't tell you how to play), then what exactly is stopping that from being SvS?

In any case, this is the EXACT reason why I generally HATE talking about SvS without a flip - because it's all pretty much WIFOM anyways and it doesn't mean shit until we actually get a Scum flip, so why bother talking about it now?

?

Nothing that I posted is preflip.

I don't think the manner in which he pushed Oka when I unvoted to give the game space is something he does if they're partners. When mafia bus each other they tend to do it in a way that doesn't really get their partner lynched so much as make them look good in case their partner does get lynched. Like, Iceman is explicitly trying to get Oka lynched and frustrated that people aren't lynching him and it's pretty unlikely for that to be his play as Oka's partner. Added to that, I don't think Oka would try to drag his partner through the mud all game by picking apart his PL post. It brings a lot of negative attention to Iceman and it trashes his credibility and that's just not the way partners usually do things. Put those two things together and I feel pretty comfortable calling them unaligned. Would I bet the game on it? Probably not. But I townread Iceman on top of this and I just don't think it's a likely world by any stretch.

@nancy, here's the post:

Oka antialignments.

I've ruled out Trinity, WhyMafia, FF, Iceman, and Quick as Oka partners, in that order of strength.

The way he's been egging on the 1v1 between FF/Quick is just something you only really see when it's a TvT, and I think the way that Oka has interacted with Quick and FF doesn't happen if they're partners.

He definitely doesn't egg on Quick when FF is his scumbud

and I don't think the way he townread Quick happens too often if they're partners. I don't think he can't ever be scum with Quick but I think it's unlikely. I have him unaligned with Iceman for the way he's incessantly picked apart Iceman's PL thing and the way Iceman has been pushing him.

He's not with Trinity for obvious reasons, and I don't think WhyMafia treats his wagon or Trinity this way if they're partners basically ever.

I have him as weakly unaligned with Flicker because of the way Flicker has treated him. Most likely partner is Eragon.

You totally were talking about Pre-Flip here... I don't have a problem ruling out who isn't teamed with whom, but that's not the only thing you are doing here. You are kinda playing this mix and match type of thing where you are taking some from unaligned and some from SvS it looks like to me, correct me if I am wrong.

[Quick]

OK, I misread that, sorry.

[Quick]

IIRC, Trinity is usually around at this time? Where is she? Why hasn't she claimed?

[Quick]

@Quick what are your reads right now? What happened the townread you stated on Trinity in 419/740/753? You also implied you thought she was town in 1178, what changed exactly? Why are you even willing to hammer? "Feel more and more like that is Scum"? What does that even mean?

Do you want a reads list or just something off the top of my head?

Believe it or not, a lot of my change on Trinity was because of what other people were saying about her. Also, although you might think me saying Trinity's reads being OMGUSsy is Town motivated, that's not necessarily the case. IMO it can go both ways and I tend to think, in this case, Trinity is breaking that pattern of giving OMGUS reads to voting opportunistically. Not sure on the exact details of Trinity's reads/votes because I haven't been paying much attention to her, but off the cuff, it seems like Trinity is breaking a lot of their own rules in favor of voting opportunistically - or at least that is the feeling that I get from their vote on Oka.

[Quick]

@Quick please do not hammer, I have IC things that I need to post before lynch and I don't have time right now. I would also like to give Eragon and Flicker time to catch up now that they are both off V/LA. Please also run me through why you're fine hammering Trinity when FF is on the wagon. Do you think he's bussing, or what? My other questions also need answering.

Believe it or not (you probably don't) but I try and play this game with some sense of dignity. As such, I am not going to hammer until your request has been fulfilled, BUT if I see votes all the sudden starting to look like they are moving for little/no reason, I'm gonna take that as a sign that I should probably strike while the iron is hot, so to speak.

As far as me hammering when FF is on the wagon, I don't do Pre-Flip. That's the long and short of it. Yes, FF is my prefered lynch, but that isn't happening D1 so I have to go elsewhere. I'd rather NOT lynch Oka at this point and the wagons are pretty well consolidated so it's pretty much up to me to decide who is lynched. I tried voting Trinity earlier, but that was another spot where I would have hammered without a claim (when you voted Trinity IIRC), so I didn't do that. So actually, I would've/should've been there before FF anyways I think. (Will go back and check this).

[Quick]

Votecount 1.20

OkaPoka (3) -

IcemanCh, WhyMafia, Formerfish

TrinityNZ (2) -

OkaPoka, Flicker

Formerfish (1) -

Quick

Not Voting (3) -

Eragon, TrinityNZ, nancy

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

Prodding Formerfish.

So Trinity. Is the main reason you switched on Oka is because of his relentless push on you? That he wouldn't risk it as town? Because by that logic, as scum, couldn't he do that, and undertake that defense? That's just WIFOM (Hope I used that correctly ;P ). Knowing that you'd town read him bc no scum would be that brazen sounds like a wonderful idea for scum to just do it anyway

Yes, you could be right, this is one reason why I’m feeling so confused right now, the longer this day goes on, the more confused I get.

After more thinking about this, I’m going to vote for Oka. I have flip flopped a couple of times with Oka. I started off thinking he was scum because of his tenacious and strong (and what I saw as unfounded) push on me, as an easy target. Then I thought that he wouldn’t do that as scum, because it would look too obvious. But yes, I agree this could be WIFOM, and it makes sense, so I’m putting my vote back on him.

I’m also having similar doubts about FormerFish. Again, I started off thinking he was mafia, and then changed my mind. Now I’m leaning back towards him being scum as he’s not feeling to me like he’s really in the game as much as he should be, and taking a bit of back seat and letting others do the scum hunt work, which doesn’t seem like him.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: OkaPoka I think that’s L-1

Coincidence or no? Not sure at this point.

Let's try this:

(was going to vote Trinity here but looks like nancy beat me to it.)

And see what happens...

OK, yeah. Here is where I was going to vote Trinity but I didn't because I thought you voted for Trinity. Obviously, it looks (to me) like FF picked up on this and decided to try and get to Trinity before I did. Makes not much difference to me that FF tried to get there before me. He's either Scum with Trinity and looking for Town cred on Trinity's flip, OR he's pushing a Townie as Scum (nothing I can do about that at this point) or by some miracle FF is Town here and wasn't actually trying to pre-empt vote Trinity before me.

[Quick]

Quick, preflip associations happen when person C says that person B is mafia because person A is mafia and they seem like partners, but person A has not flipped, C is just convinced that A is mafia. Looking at a wagon and noticing that your scumreads are on the wagon and deciding that you're not comfortable helping someone who you explicitly

do not trust to the point that you want to kill them

to kill someone else has exactly nothing to do with that.

How on earth are you okay with lynching someone when you don't even have a good idea of what they have done this game? This is literally way too late to be thinking about the game "off the cuff". You are lynching someone. That means they're dead. Forever.

Why can't Trinity be voting Oka because she thinks he's mafia? "Opportunistic" is just a buzzword. It doesn't mean anything. What does "breaking the pattern of OMGUS reads" mean and how is that mafia indicative?

What do you think about her claim?

Well, that's how I play. I don't "count" on my SRs being correct before a lynch. I've said my prefered lynch, not much more I can do about it.

Newbs are generally pretty easy for me to read so I don't feel the need to pour hours into ISOing them.

Opportunistic isn't a buzzword to me. It a legit thought process. Voting opportunistically is when someone votes in a way that looks like there is a good chance for either a wagon to form on that person or there is a good chance of a lynch on that person.. It's about getting to the vote quickly without much reason given. I don't come from a place where "buzzwords" are a thing. As far as "breaking the pattern of OMGUS reads" goes, part of my reads come from what I call narrative that people set the tone of for their play. When they do something that is out of alignment with that narrative, it's Scummy. For example, if you were to all the sudden say you are never changing your reads for the rest of the game, that would be Scummy af to me because you have already changed your reads a million times. This does tie into my read on Trinity in that, I feel previously, Trinity's reads were very much OMGUSsy in nature. Where I am getting this from is their read on me and how it developed. It developed because I SR her. That was the reason for her SR on me. I didn't get that same feel for Trinity's vote on Oka. Instead, what I saw was a VC with Oka at like L-2 at the time and Trinity coming out of the woodwork to put Oka at L-1. My read on Trinity is what I call an Occam's Razor read. I have developed a system for categorizing players into 4 different types with 2 different options of 2 things. I can share it if you want, but not inclined to atm unless asked. Traditionally when people think of Occam's Razor they think of the rule of thumb that the simplest explanation is the correct one. The way I think about it is the process to which people develop reads. In this case I am using some concrete data (that isn't open to interpretation) to inform me of the motivation behind Trinity's play. The information I am looking at is what I just described.. There was a VC, then Trinity voted to put someone at L-1. And that is what I am using to inform my read on Trinity.

[Quick]

What you're trying to say is that you believe Trinity deviated from her villager process.

Sure.

[Quick]

IDK how that last comment was taken...

In any case, I just feel like I have sorta explained things fairly well??? at least my recent case on Trinity??? Let me know if I haven't :/

[Quick]

I still think Nancy is town I just don't like this controlling nature of the town wagons.

I also think it's a big mistake to lynch Trinity. I know I'll regret this if she does flip Scum but, I"m going to call it now. She's town.

In nancy's defense... Yes, she jumps around... a lot... but guess what? Pushing anything that moves is generally a very good thing. If you generally have the mindset going into a game that you are going to play like you are going into a Mosh Pit (I don't mosh, far too introverted, but I consider this my Moshing) where you are essentially trying to hit anyone and everyone, that gives a shit ton of content for Town to look at. Even if you are not going at it from an analytical PoV, pushing stuff works very very well in terms of win rate over a large sample size. So while nancy could be a bit more... controlled(?) in her pushes, I think on the whole what she is doing is very very much a plus for Town's win con. I would be shocked if nancy wasn't NKed (given I know very little of nancy's Scum game, but I am not quite ready to WIFOM that beast yet).

[Quick]

Either way. For whatever reason. Your game is different in this game.

A good part of why I'm primarily playing newbie games is to improve my own game. I am taking the bits that have been successful for me from previous games, meshing them together and trying some other shit. Every single one of my games since I've been back have been different to some degree, it's called evolution.

Ninja- I mean I guess since I see her as town I don't see it as controlling the thread in a bad way. And none of the wagons have dispersed, they are still there. You could always compromise your read for the benefit of town gaining info by voting Trinity.

I thought you more or less said you were coming in somewhat "fresh"?

[Quick]

Point out the post you are talking about? I remember saying I took a break because of outside influences. That was the Lions share of the reason. The other is that I figured out I had no good process to take from game to game and really do well with, that's why I'm in newbie games right now. To refine my own play.

Well, pretty sure you would have a better idea of what to look at than me... Mind digging up your post so we can discuss it? I just feel you could find it faster, that's all.

[Quick]

@Flicker, you are here now. Do you have any questions for me?

[Quick]

Do you have a read on me? I am sorry for being a brute this game, I have tried/am trying to not get so worked up.

[Quick]

If we look at pure name recogintion and participation. Would anyone disagree that Eragon, Flicker, and WhyMafia float to the top as possible scum?

FF has been super engaged and consistent.
Trinity has been floating around but, in the mix with everyone else.
Oka has been crazy invovled even if I have a feeling he's scum.
Nancy.... I mean do we need more?
Quick.... well I don't like him for town. I think he's scum but, he's engaged a lot.


So does it seem odd that if I had to award participation awards I wouldn't give them to Eragon, Flicker, and WhyMafia?

They appear long enough to give reads and then gone.


Maybe, I'm nuts.

I don't think you are nuts. Players lurking hurts Town... a lot. but sometimes people have a lot of other stuff going on while playing. It's not always the same on other sites which I am sure you are aware of having played a few 48/24 games. Sometimes I feel like games move at a snail's pace on this site. I've actually tried not to post as much as I usually do, because usually I get SR for that because people can't keep up but I am actually only a mid-activity player on most other sites, site depending.

Is this still more or less where you are with reads? I should probably do a final Reads List before I (or someone else) hammers.

[Quick]

Reads:

Town to Scum (PoE based on indivudual play):

Town

nancy - Just Town unless I want to WIFOM myself into oblivion.

Town Lean

Oka - Feeling better and better about Oka, simply because I just am not seeing any Scum motive behind their posts and no one is really defending them (I guess barring me??? :not sure:).
Ice - I just get a lot of Town feels. What I mean by that is I can feel his apathy and I don't think he would be feeling that if he was Scum at this point. Could he be lurking? I suppose? Town until something jumps out at me as a conflicting Narrative.
WM - I think WM has asked some good questions, which, I typically associate good questions with Town play. Overall, seems to be "to the point" and while not necessarily AI, still like him poking different places.

Null

Aragon - He's made some good points. I am not sure how new or not he is to the game, but feeling he might not be making some of the points he has made as Scum. Mostly deferring to see what he does later because I don't think he's done much at all.
Flicker - Hard to get a read here. Not knocking anything here, just hard to get a solid read. Busy life, I get it, but that doesn't make you easier to read.
Trinity - Probably my most controversial read I have atm considering I haven't really had a good lead up to a good read here. That said, I think nancy has made some pretty solid points against Trinity - so has Oka - and I guess I feel like though there have been some things that make me question this as a hard SR, but I can't help feeling some things are just lacking here, which I think most people are agreeing with.

Scum Lean

FF - Don't like his play at all. I feel like he's been extremely manipulative towards me/my slot. People are reading him as Town because he has some good tone, I guess. Not seeing it personally and I highly highly doubt this game ends without one of us dying. That should be relatively telling in what the alignment of the others is, I think. Not really scared of that, pretty confident this flips Scum.

[Quick]

For clarity.

Town: Nancy (Not that Oka's seeds of doubt haven't affected me, but I don't have anything strong to reevaluate this read with, and probably won't until D2.)
Town-lean: Formerfish (same reasons as before), IcemanCh (same reasons as before), Oka (I don't necessarily like who Oka's pushing, but I like the pushes themselves, if that makes sense?)
Town/null: Eragon, TrinityNZ (basically the same reasons as before for both)
Null: N/A
Scum/null: WhyMafia (see next post), Quick (agree with FF's observations/pushes)
Scum-lean: N/A
Scum: N/A

P-edit:

@Eragon

Gun to your head, who would you vote for now?

First off, I don't know if this is an IC question or just an experienced MS player question, but in my first newbie game, after we ran a VT up to L-1 and they claimed, one player said/strongly implied that since there'd already been a claim, we should go ahead and lynch them rather than running up someone else and having them claim. Otherwise, if their claims were true, we'd be helping scum PR hunt. I disagreed with this logic because I think it's most important to lynch scum, and if you really think someone is town you shouldn't vote for them.

@Everyone, but especially experienced MS players

What do you think about the above? Both in general and in relation to Oka in this game?

Sorry missed this the first time around. I most definitely think you were correct. Don't lynch PR's they will sort themselves out. If Mafia doesn't kill them, then they can give us info. That's the long and short of it.

[Quick]

I probably will not be on later tonight because I have to sleep...

[Quick]

If you think Trinity is a mislynch, then don't hammer her, Iceman. Jeez. What the heckie.

That is silly. She is town but, getting her flip will help reveal scum.

Odd that quick hasn't hammered like he said he would and he's letting me do it.......

VOTE: trinity

I haven't even been online tbh. Had other things I had to do.

[Quick]

I am coming around on Trinity. Feeling more and more like that is Scum.

Going to consolidate the wagons at this point, hate unvoting FF, but we need stances on stuff.

(was going to vote Trinity here). No longer going to because Trinity is at L-1.

Consider this an intent to hammer.

This was over 24 hours ago.

And?

Nanacy wanted me to wait so I did. Then life got busy and I wasn't even online at all.

[Quick]

@nancy, explain this push on Flicker plz.

[Quick]

@nancy, can you please explain why you went after Flicker at EoD?

[Quick]

You never answered my question @Nancy.

Why should I do what you want if you can't answer a simple question?

Will address Eragon's case on me later.

[Quick]

Oka, scum could easily have been afraid to scumread you because you were so busy in thread and willing to go up against anyone.

I'll talk about the nk after Quick does.

Vote: Eragon

Maybe?

And you are basing this off what?

[Quick]

what on earth is that kill lol

This is Scummy IMO.

In my experience Scum are more likely to draw attention to weird NKs than Town.

[Quick]

@nancy, I pretty much never analyze NKs, so I don't know what you are expecting me to say about this one...

Can you please answer what that push on Flicker was now?

So For me, my PoE from most likely to least is this:

[WM, FF] WM hasn't really made an impact on this game as far as I can tell. His arguments are very generic (pretty much any argument he makes I feel is pretty generic) and full of buzzwords. FF still manipulative as shit. He might be saying he wasn't deliberately trying to piss me off, but I def think he was and the fact he is trying to cover that up is really really bad to me.
[Eragon, Oka] Eragon also hasn't made an impact on the game, but I view him as doing more than WM because he seems to have some solid observations on some things. Oka I am reevaluating atm. I feel like Oka has been kinda all over the place in terms of direction. That's something that in my experience more often comes from Town, however, I feel like Oka is the type of person who would try and play as Scum by creating chaos ITT. It's a feel I have based on their high energy. All that being said about Oka, I am solidly Null reading him because, on the other hand, some of the things he is saying/doing don't seem to have much of any Scum motive.
[Ice, nancy] The only thing that bothers me about Ice is that, generally, his approach to what he looks at for Town/Scum motive just seems completely off to me - that includes the recent naked vote. I might just chalk it up to inexperience, however. nancy pushing all the angles and not really seeing any Scum intent and she's pulled some Town moves I think. Blatantly shifting gears in who she is attacking - without any regard for any kind of progression at all - seems a bit too brazen for Scum of nancy's caliber. (And yeah, I def wasn't giving nancy enough credit as a player until I saw Mafia451 took what nancy said with more than a grain of salt so she's got to be on to something.)

[Quick]

eragon did it too

Just looked at that post and yeah, it looks pretty bad at first glace. I don't think it quite fits the same category as WM's post though because there was a lot more that went with that post than just "OMG I am SOOOOO surprised by that kill!!!"

[Quick]

dude three people were surprised by that kill, we cant all be scum. think you are reading too much into it

I don't think I am.

[Quick]

I expressed surprise Quick because I expected Nancy or iceman to be killed

Flicker wasn't even on my thoughts to die so ... how exactly is that scummy? You think it's a tell?

I don't think being surprised is a tell, but I think drawing attention to being surprised about the kill very well could be.

[Quick]

@quick, what im saying is that there is an extremely sizeable chance that this scumread direction is wrong since there are three people doing your scumtell and only two of us have a chance at being scum.

But whatever, could you elaborate why drawing attention to the nk is scummy?

Pretty simple really. If you make a post that all it says is "I am so surprised by the NK" and nothing else, that's the distinction I am trying to make here. Both you and Eragon said some other content related thing besides just that you were surprised by the NK. Making a sole post all on its own saying you are surprised by the NK without any other content in the post shows you are intending to show your surprise for the NK and nothing more.

Eragon said more than "Oh I am surprised" and you had a vote with the comment, which you explained later. Because of this, I feel what NM did was much more Scummy than what either of you did regarding the NK.

[Quick]

@quick, what im saying is that there is an extremely sizeable chance that this scumread direction is wrong since there are three people doing your scumtell and only two of us have a chance at being scum.

But whatever, could you elaborate why drawing attention to the nk is scummy?

Pretty simple really. If you make a post that all it says is "I am so surprised by the NK" and nothing else, that's the distinction I am trying to make here. Both you and Eragon said some other content related thing besides just that you were surprised by the NK. Making a sole post all on its own saying you are surprised by the NK without any other content in the post shows you are intending to show your surprise for the NK and nothing more.

Eragon said more than "Oh I am surprised" and you had a vote with the comment, which you explained later. Because of this, I feel what

WM

did was much more Scummy than what either of you did regarding the NK.

WM, not NM

EBWOP

[Quick]

BUT THEN

you completely change after you begin being a serious contender for a Lynch. You start asking questions, following up, leading. Why wasn't any of this prevalent before??? And when Nancy, who you considered pretty solid town with pretty solid influence, you go full on crazy and basically take Ice's viewpoint and go on an extreme, and really don't bring that kind of stuff after she unvotes you


I have to go now : (

...you are wrong, i pushed ice early, before town pressured me. i would disagree on your comment of my lack of proactivity, it is proactive to attack iceman early for his comments....

in fact i got grilled early for being aggro and attacking people. the second vote on me was from formerfish who said he didn't like my aggro play. so either you are wrong or formerfish is wrong.

Clearly, someone is lying here (going to read up, I guess). What I initially think of this is that WM is a bit too strong here on Oka in that it's really God Damn easy to poke things that you weren't around for because you had no real involvement in the game at the time. Overall, WM's case on Oka is still mostly just a lot of buzzwords. Yes, he has some decent points about Oka, but only if they are true and things aren't open to interpretation. My gut tells me this is a Scum case WM is pulling and he's trying to distract from the pressure I put on him.

Also, I think it's pretty safe to assume WM and Oka are not SvS.

[Quick]

I'm not really sure where to go from here. I have suspicions of Nancy... bet you could all predict that. I also still suspect Oka still. I really hate D2 because it's the day that everyone starts to look like scum to me.

VOTE: Oka

VOTE: Eragon

what happened here Ice?

you go from voting Oka, then without any progression you vote me directly after Nancy votes, and put me to L-1.

What do you actually think of the points made against you made by other people? I feel like you are not addressing them, just like WM is doing against me, just like nancy is doing against me, just like I am doing to you... OK this game is kinda fucked up rn...

I'll get to addressing my case on you shortly.

P-Edit: Ninja'd I guess.

[Quick]

God this is such a chore to respond to...

your point?

Just thought it was interesting that you were agreeing with me there. People don't usually "agree" with others reasoning. It's usually just taken into account passively. This is probably NAI.

*side not* I meant post, not vote
{bolded points in post}
basically an OMGUS
A bit of shade

from a bit of experience, when people say "there isnt a legitimate reason to SR me" I more often find that flips scum than town

I agree that most of the time that when people say "I am not Scummy and you can't prove I am" (or something to that effect) it comes from Scum. I am not everyone and my mind works differently than other people's and I have said basically that exact thing many times as Town because I want to keep Town honest and keep them from naked voting (like Ice is doing RN) or just not providing good reasons for much of anything at all. Going to give this a Null/Town read for this comment.

then whats that

I think you missed the part about me saying FF hasn't really hit any Town tells.

I guess I did jump the gun there a bit, I just overall didnt like the feel of the progression off the SR.

My read on Ice is noob town and your scum motivation for changing the read is so that you dont get pushed if he flips town

I'm reading this as a Scum Lean comment. IDK why you think I am planning on Ice flipping at this point.

I dont like it b/c mafia probably has a pretty good idea of what the role list is, so they know if they are pretty much safe from being caught by a PR.

in that case, you would say "Let pr's deal with him" to make sure that he will live for another few days, while you can possibly kill the PRs

Wut? AFAIK, Scum can't only be certain of the setup once a PR has been lynched. Also not getting how I am planning to kill the PR's without knowing who they are???

This part leaves me really fucking confused because I legit have no idea how you got from point A to point B.

just a passing thought. put your readlist here to mark it down, and commented "fair" because the last sentence.
Cant justify, flicker category, Eragon scummiest. etc...

So are you reading that as Townie or Scummy?

so angleshooting? Also yuck

As far as I am concerned, if it's public info, it's fair game as long as you are not talking about other ongoing games.

does it matter how many? Do I need to find 2 + wolfy 180's before you'll admit to being scum?

You said "some people." Some people isn't one, it's more than one. Scum lean on this.

buddying = S v S no?

No, buddying is Pocketing or trying to cozy up to a Town member as Scum so they TR you back

its not Scummy ONLY against a newbie...

Well then WTF is your point?

No.

I am actually really surprised you said this. I almost want to call Bull Shit.

Overall, Lean Scum here. I still think WM is Scummier, but going to watch Eragon more closely now.

[Quick]

is it safe to assume that nancy is a rational and optimal player?

This is a very good question and I am not sure of the answer. Probably a bit of both emotional and optimal.

[Quick]

Like, Oka, do you understand how incredibly frustrating your play is for me right now? You tunneled on my strongest town read yesterday and convinced everyone that she was mafia to the point that even I doubted my read and started to wonder if I was being stupid. And then with WM's help I realized that no, I wasn't being stupid, but it was too late, you had already trashed her and there was nothing I could do. And then today you start pushing on me, of all people, and for nonsense reasons. After everything you did to trash day 1 for me. After I put more effort into the game than anyone else. Did more to solve than anyone else. Went through the trouble of getting to town on you. Are you actually trying to drive me insane, or what?

Pedit no dude. I don't get tilted as scum. I nearly replaced out during the night phase, my girlfriend tried to convince me to do it but I refused to because I have a stupid sense of obligation. I cried when trinity was getting lynched because I knew she was going to flip town and I was helpless to stop it and it's against my process to hard defend people on day 1. I lost my mind and started pushing on flicker, because i just couldn't deal. I am 100% done with this site and I'm leaving after this game because even newbie games aren't safe anymore. Like yeah I shouldn't be posting this because it's a bad example to set as IC and I'm supposed to the one in control but emotions are part of the game and it's incredibly insensitive of you to push on me after everything that's happened and then say that it's scummy that I'm frustrated

I think quitting the site just because your Town Read got lynched is pretty ??? tbh.

[Quick]

I hate nancy right now because i cant get a fucking read on her. I hated the way she played the end of day 1 especially in light of how much I loved some of her posts early and mid day.

I was Strongly TRing nancy for pushing anything and everything but it almost seems a bit OTT to me at this point - like she is doing it on purpose or something.

Quick is ignoring any post from me that he cant twist into me being his personal attacker. In fact im pretty sure only nancy has even spoke up about the way that he has been confbiased towards me the whole game.

I am trying to reevaluate you atm. That's why I have been quiet - because I am trying to work through whether you were actually being manipulative or not.

[Quick]

Trinity flipping town should put you in a different light because she was technically your counter wagon. Her town could = you scum. The push you are making right out of the gate seems forced, like you hatched the plan over night to kill flicker and pin it on eragon.

I dont like doing nk analysis, theres too much wifom in it.

Not sure I like this too much. On the one hand, you are saying you don't like doing NKA, on the other, you are doing it with some pretty tin-foily thoughts on the subject. IDK, maybe I just expect a bit of conviction in the second thing because you're not a newb so I would assume you have some of these kind of things nailed down at this point and part of that would be just not talking about NKA if you don't like doing it/don't find it helpful.

[Quick]

Bleh. WM subbing out is really depressing

Why? This kind of thing happens all the time, what makes this particular case depressing?

[Quick]

No, quick, I'm leaving because the site is so toxic it makes me toxic. I'm leaving because the only people who are left play like RC. I'm leaving because even newbies are toxic now and there's nothing good or safe left on the site.

What in the world does "doing it on purpose or something" mean?

It's depressing because WM is a friend, I love the way he plays and he was my rock this game.

To be brutally honest here, the toxicity on this site probably has a lot to do with the leadership on this site. The meta they are trying to form is not really concerned with "hurt feeling" IMO. I find a lot of the people on this site to be kinda elitist pricks who are always reminiscing of the good old days, but I digress. It's too bad you have to leave. I think you have probably made this site more than it actually is. It's a site devoted to a game where people argue about stuff. Well, that's probably a pretty crude simplification of what some of the people on this site would say, but whatever.

By doing it on purpose, I feel like you are pushing a lot of different people intentionally. Like it's not just based on how you are feeling about things, but more like you are going into the game telling yourself it's some sort of goal to push anywhere and everywhere. Like it's a conscious effort rather than it happening naturally, for a very much lack of a better term.

Sorry WM left, it was probably him taking what I said about his game as me criticizing him. Sorry about that.

[Quick]

No, quick, I'm leaving because the site is so toxic it makes me toxic. I'm leaving because the only people who are left play like RC. I'm leaving because even newbies are toxic now and there's nothing good or safe left on the site.

What in the world does "doing it on purpose or something" mean?

It's depressing because WM is a friend, I love the way he plays and he was my rock this game.

To be brutally honest here, the toxicity on this site probably has a lot to do with the leadership on this site. The meta they are trying to form is not really concerned with "hurt feeling" IMO. I find a lot of the people on this site to be kinda elitist pricks who are always reminiscing of the good old days, but I digress. It's too bad you have to leave. I think you have probably made this site more than it actually is. It's a site devoted to a game where people argue about stuff. Well, that's probably a pretty crude simplification of what some of the people on this site would say, but whatever.

By doing it on purpose, I feel like you are pushing a lot of different people intentionally. Like it's not just based on how you are feeling about things, but more like you are going into the game telling yourself it's some sort of goal to push anywhere and everywhere. Like it's a conscious effort rather than it happening naturally, for a very much lack of a better term.

Sorry WM left, it was probably him taking what I said about his game as me criticizing him. Sorry about that.

I mean, you're describing my day 1 town process. I push on everything to generate content. Day 1 is the most important phase of the game and is where you draw from to solve the game. If I still have question marks day 2 then I'll push more, sure, but at this point it's about using the content that's already in the game and clearing up the last of the question marks.

Interesting approach. I typically just play the same game regardless of what phase it is. I typically have good reads at the beginning and the end of the game and not so much in the middle. Hopefully, when the site get's updated, they can make having on-site notes a thing. I find MU to be far superior when it comes to the software of the site. Funnily enough, I remember saying this site had the best site for Mafia, but that was quite a while ago before I knew MU existed. In any case, I hope I run into you elsewhere on the net, like Mafia451 or MU.

[Quick]

on a side note im thinking about a formerfish lynch, what about everyone else?

Uh, yas?

VOTE: FF

[Quick]

I would say

nancy
Ice
Oka
FF
Quick
Eragon

With nancy locktown for myself, and oka/ice pretty close together in terms of towniness level

No offence, but it's a pet peeve of mine when people say someone is lock Town when they are not. You might think this is semantics, but I just don't like people misapplying the meaning to things..

[Quick]

@nancy- i like iceman for town, and you.

I feel like Sky could be scum just based off her reads list, but only for the slightest and most convoluted reason, so it doesnt even really play yet.

I think that Quick is scum and has been trying to play up the AtE and sympathy angles when it comes to me. Says hes trying to re-evaluate me, but doesnt really want to interact with me.

Eragon could be but that would mean that im definitely seeing a town!Oka which im just not 100% on board with yet.

So I guess I'm here

VOTE: Quick

Not really sure what gives you the indication that I am avoiding you when you've made like... how many posts between thinking I should be interacting with you and when I said I was trying to reevaluate you? It's almost as if you are trying to operate under some pre-cognition of what I am going to do or something, which I don't really like.

[Quick]

@nancy,

Is this how you want us to play? To point out how we are Town? Sorta seems somewhat semantical to say "I am Town for XYZ reasons.." *shrug*

[Quick]

Totally not game related (or probably it is [anyways]), but I am actually really happy to see nancy do a "lmao." That actually made me happy.

[Quick]

So if you are wondering why I am "not doing anything" it's because I feel pretty good about the way things are going rn. I feel good about a FF vs Eragon flip.

[Quick]

also quick i finally understnad you when you said you voted iceman for the stupid read...

And i get it...

Hmm? What are you referring to? I can't even remember what I had for breakfast, let alone an argument I made a while ago.

[Quick]

OK, so I actually think Eragon's catchup wasn't too bad. I'd rather flip FF personally, but I won't condemn an Eragon wagon at this point, simply due to PoE. I would feel better if Sky was a wagon as well, but that would be a bit too perfect, so just going to be glad about the flip either way.

BTW, nancy, what's your read on Sky atm? Any updates in your reads at all?

[Quick]

mr quick

me confused why you no talk more when me and iceman no likey nancy? or you likey nancy dead?

Like... My read on nancy hasn't really changed much. I feel like I can either tin-foil myself into oblivion thinking about whether nancy is Scum or not, but on a fundamental level, I guess I just think nancy is Town. *shrug* would really dislike a nancy lynch at this point.

[Quick]

no not what i mean mr quick

when me and ice go at ms nancy

why u no talk more and be like no no no dont do dat

I generally don't hard core defend TRs. I just don't. Feel free to look me up on this, but it would probably be a pretty arduous task considering you would be looking for false positives instead of actual mentions.

[Quick]

So if you are wondering why I am "not doing anything" it's because I feel pretty good about the way things are going rn. I feel good about a FF vs Eragon flip.

so u no do thing now because u content

but u no do thing before because too hard

when u do thing

I got done with the MC a while ago for the second year in a row. It seems shortly after it ends for me I sorta stop giving so much of a fuck about games and am generally a lot more laid back. That's what I remember at least. It's kinda like a weight has been lifted off me so I can just sorta relax for a while. IDK kinda hard to explain.

[Quick]

whats mc


bye mr eragon

Mafia Championships. It's something I thought was a lot more competitive that it really is so it's kinda a let down in that way.

[Quick]

@nancy- i like iceman for town, and you.

I feel like Sky could be scum just based off her reads list, but only for the slightest and most convoluted reason, so it doesnt even really play yet.

I think that Quick is scum and has been trying to play up the AtE and sympathy angles when it comes to me. Says hes trying to re-evaluate me, but doesnt really want to interact with me.

Eragon could be but that would mean that im definitely seeing a town!Oka which im just not 100% on board with yet.

So I guess I'm here

VOTE: Quick

Not really sure what gives you the indication that I am avoiding you when you've made like... how many posts between thinking I should be interacting with you and when I said I was trying to reevaluate you? It's almost as if you are trying to operate under some pre-cognition of what I am going to do or something, which I don't really like.

I guess its more so the fact that I have mentioned a few times now that me defending you to nancy when she was saying you were being abusive is very contrary to what you are trying to push, that I was trying to manipulate you through that entire thing. If I were doing what you think I was wouldnt it make more sense for me as scum to let her really dig into you and let you spiral out of control? Why would I stop that from happening if that was my endgame in your opinion?

That's NAI.

[Quick]

@nancy- i like iceman for town, and you.

I feel like Sky could be scum just based off her reads list, but only for the slightest and most convoluted reason, so it doesnt even really play yet.

I think that Quick is scum and has been trying to play up the AtE and sympathy angles when it comes to me. Says hes trying to re-evaluate me, but doesnt really want to interact with me.

Eragon could be but that would mean that im definitely seeing a town!Oka which im just not 100% on board with yet.

So I guess I'm here

VOTE: Quick

Not really sure what gives you the indication that I am avoiding you when you've made like... how many posts between thinking I should be interacting with you and when I said I was trying to reevaluate you? It's almost as if you are trying to operate under some pre-cognition of what I am going to do or something, which I don't really like.

I guess its more so the fact that I have mentioned a few times now that me defending you to nancy when she was saying you were being abusive is very contrary to what you are trying to push, that I was trying to manipulate you through that entire thing. If I were doing what you think I was wouldnt it make more sense for me as scum to let her really dig into you and let you spiral out of control? Why would I stop that from happening if that was my endgame in your opinion?

That's NAI.

So you think that as scum I would step in and stop you and nancy from going at it for .... what reason? Its not like i was trying to pocket you, ive been continuously calling you scum.

Why should I give you credit for calling a spade a spade?

[Quick]

And im not looking for credit quick, i am looking for you to take an actual look at the motivation i would have to do that as town vs. as scum. Which one makes more sense to come from? You say you are looking to re-evaluate me but it doesnt look like you are doing much of that at all.

Oka, you could just follow me onto quick since we have more time today and that was your reasoning for it not being viable day 1.

You are expecting me to TR you for saying something that is objectively true. Say that out loud to yourself. I'm not even saying it's Scummy I'm saying it's NAI.

[Quick]

Quick. Read this very carefully.

As scum I would have more reason to stay out of nancys way when she started in on you. As scum I would have sat on the sideline of that with a tub of popcorn and watched you swan dive off the high board into an empty pool.

I feel like to matter what happens today you guys arent going to even pretend to look other places.

Should I just claim here so we can all be on our merry ways?

Well, that would assume you wouldn't care about being TR as Scum. I do that kind of thing all the time as Scum, why wouldn't you do that? I mean basically, saying true things as Scum is one of the best ways to get TR.

[Quick]

So IMO there is just as much Scum motive for saying true things to look like you are being "helpful" as Scum as there is about being truthful as Town.

Besides, did you read like, at all change on me? What's your explicit Town motivation to pointing that out?

[Quick]

But you think I just did it for town cred, ok.

I didn't say that, don't put words in my mouth.

[Quick]

saying true things as Scum is one of the best ways to get TR.

Did i paraphrase this wrong?

OMG stop.

[Quick]

Im not sure how thats an answer to a reasonable question. That is a quote from you. You think im scum. Those arent hard pieces to put together there quick.

I provided a counterexample of how it could be interpreted as something Scummy. I didn't actually disagree with what you said about the Town motivation, I just provided a counterexample of how it could be interpreted as Scummy, hence, it's NAI.

[Quick]

VOTE: eragon

I have three possible scums at the moment. Eragon, FF, Nancy. I don't think Quick is Scum and I'm not really sure where my head is at with Nancy and FF. I feel fairly comfortable with a vote on Eragon.

What has you thinking nancy is Scum again?

[Quick]

VOTE: eragon

I have three possible scums at the moment. Eragon, FF, Nancy. I don't think Quick is Scum and I'm not really sure where my head is at with Nancy and FF. I feel fairly comfortable with a vote on Eragon.

What has you thinking nancy is Scum again?

Tin-Foil mostly.

To me what I see is that every time town starts to gain steam and go in a particular direction it is immediately derailed by Nancy. It's almost predictable that when we all start moving in one direction there's a Nancy post tearing it apart and forcing us in a different direction. Now, normally this isn't bad. We need to be right when we lynch. It just seems too coincidental every time though.

Like even right now she say Ice is town and then a few post later makes it seem like I'm 100% conf scum to her. I think it might just be joking around but, it's still there.

The entire vote thing super rubbed me wrong too. Town's greatest tool is the lynch and threat of lynch. A wagon only kind of has meaning before a threat to hammer. Most of the games I've been in so far the most valuable information comes from the intent to hammer. That's when everyone on the wagon has to either affirm their conviction or give a damn good reason to get off the wagon. It's also the point where very real pressure is being applied to the person being wagoned. It's when claims are made and mistakes are either made by scum or not. Every time we got close to getting real pressure put on someone Nancy jumped off. That's fine .... if you have a good reason. And, I'm sorry but, jumping off only because you don't want to lynch yet is just straight up wrong. Maybe, do it once... fine but, she's done it what? four times. That to me is a scum trying to get town to go bonkers and second guess everything. It's worked too. Look at our Day 1. Town was EVERYWHERE. They should be at first but, as the day wears on things should start to salitify and town should start somewhat working together.

Well, I guess we put that to the test with Eragon...

[Quick]

TLDR: If Nancy and Eragon are scum then it makes sense for her vote to be on him right now instead of one of the other wagons. I don't see her ever lynching Quick. The only real option would be FF. I don't see her letting Eragon get lynched just yet either unless town really picked up steam on scum reading him and getting on it.

The only problem with your nancy going after FF theory is that nancy has been hard Town reading FF pretty much all game.

[Quick]

Intent to hammer.

Eragon, please claim.

[Quick]

VOTE: Quick


I don't like the complete skirting of the current topic and declaring an intent to hammer

Why not?

What exactly do I need to actually say about it?

Should be pretty obvious that FF resolves itself at this point. What should I be saying about it that need be said?

[Quick]

I am just VT.

[Quick]

VOTE: Eragon