Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[IcemanCh]

I'm not missing!!! I'm driving home from Utah. It's a 36 hour drive. The wife and I have been taking turns driving.

Anyways. Never not vote formerfish.

VOTE: FormerFish

[IcemanCh]

could you explain what transparency is?[/spoiler]

So like, imagine you've got a curtain, and behind the curtain is a big fat messy glob of brainjuice containing all your thoughts about the game. Everyone has their own special and unique glob of brainjuice, is part of being human. When you talk about things in the game, you're extracting stuff from your brainjuices and presenting them to rest of the game, basically by parting the curtain a little and sharing a little sample.

In it's most extreme form, you just make the curtain entirely see-through and everyone can just see all of your brainjuice, it's spilling out everywhere and it's kind of disgusting and no one really wants to look at it but it's also sorta compelling and they can't help but look. Practically speaking, though, it's kinda helpful to form your thoughts about things in a coherent way so that other people don't have to do a lot of work to figure out what the heck all that juice shit is that's happening. That would be, like, making a big ol' soup and when you come out the curtain parts and everyone can take a bit of a look at the big messy yucky glob and then they're given this delicious soup to eat and drink and they kinda get the best of both worlds. A bit of a view of the messy shit behind the curtain and a nice taste of coherency, and they can tell that that soup came from that glob because they can see that both have the same qualities, child like mother.

Thing is, if you're mafia, your brainjuice isn't like everyone else's. Your brainjuice is all contained in a neat little vat and there's nothing messy about it. It has air bubbles and shit, it's basically curated. So when you're bringing out your soup and ladle, people will see the vat behind the curtain and they'll be like, what? Who are you? And like, mafia can dress up their brainjuice and try to make it all messy, they can have these delicious soup recipes to feed everyone, but when it comes down to it, when they're doing the "transparent" thing and showing everyone what they think, there's no foundation to it, all they have is a silly-looking vat, they had to invent everything to make it seem like other people's ugly crap, they can't really part the curtain because if they do then people will notice that there's a disconnect between the soup and what's behind. And they're kinda smug about it, too, more often than not, you know. Power and secrecy does things to people.

Makey sense?

This is..... I think.... the most beautiful post I've ever seen. The use of brain juice is amazing.

Also, you are either the best scum player ever or you are town. I'm going to lean town but I think ICs should always be lynched before LYLO.


I'm catching up and I really like your display of reads. I think it is a bit complicated and I need something to decipher it but the concept is cool.

[IcemanCh]

1) What sort of activity can we expect from you this game? My goal is to be very active. So far I'm failing. I want to try to do be in the mix as much as possible.
2) Have you played forum mafia before, and if so, where, and how has that informed your play? I've played three games here and several TOS games on another non-mafia centric site.
3) Do you prefer hunting mafia or manipulating town, and why? I prefer manipulating town. Mostly cause I'm bad at it and want to get better.

[IcemanCh]

UNVOTE:


I'm shocked that no one pointed out that FF was at L-2 from RVS. It took 2 pages?

So far I'm leaning Town on trinity. I've seen her scum game..... this game she feels more natural.

[IcemanCh]

but do you policy lynch ics?

Trying to pull up a bunch of other stuff but I'll answer this now since you've asked twice.

On D1 or D2 no. After that I think you should yes. Here is why.

As a town player and IC is just a more experienced player to help find scum. To me they only have a slight advantage although most of that is lost because new players can be a pain in the ass.

As a scum player they are like a super heros. They can easily sway new players into confusion and mislynches. There is a much bigger advantage to a scum!IC.

I also feel like scum is going to night kill the active/most experienced players first. So it brings in the whole..... why is the IC still alive after a few nights?


I just think that a town!IC makes LYLO super difficult.


Of course if we have a strong read on someone other then the IC we would lynch them instead.

Tldr..... If we have no super strong roads then IC should be lynched before LYLO.

[IcemanCh]

1) What sort of activity can we expect from you this game? My goal is to be very active. So far I'm failing. I want to try to do be in the mix as much as possible.
2) Have you played forum mafia before, and if so, where, and how has that informed your play? I've played three games here and several TOS games on another non-mafia centric site.
3) Do you prefer hunting mafia or manipulating town, and why? I prefer manipulating town. Mostly cause I'm bad at it and want to get better.

oh your homesite is ToS?

No.....

I'm a super nerd that plays EVE. My alliance has a forum and we play TOS in the a sub forum. Lots of fun but they are usually super gimmicky with a ton of PRs.

[IcemanCh]

or as a scum player they can do exactly what you are doing, leading an inexperienced town to have extreme paranoia against an ic and get a free mislynch

I think you are stretching what I'm saying.

[IcemanCh]

Meh. I've said something similar in every game I've played so far.

[IcemanCh]

Let me clarify one more time becuae this is getting silly and distracting from finding scum.


Right now I believe that Nancy is town
Nancy would have to be an amazing scum player to not be town. To me Nancy is my first pick for town.

I made my comment about the IC because in the odd event that we have zero reads before a lylo that is where I would go. I don't see that happening though because Nancy is coming off so strongly as town.


For now we should set the issue aside and look for scum. Here is what I have so far.

Strong town: Nancy
Town Trinity FormerFish
Lean Town Erogon
Nuetral Okta Stanley Sarge
Scum Lean Flick

[IcemanCh]

What I like about oka is the hunting of separate leads and not just sheepping others reads. I always feel like I come across as scum when I just sheep and when other people do it it seems scummy. So can appreciate that view point and it gives oka town points.

What I dont like is the insistence that the game go fast. On this forum that is a super scum read for me.

I also dont like the lazy read. Picking on the people who haven't posted in the first bit of the game or snagging a weak straw seems scummy to me. It to easy to brush off a mislynch the next day as the fault of the lynchee for not being more involved.

Eventually we need to push lurkers and lynch them but I dont think we are there.

Oka do you think I'm wrong for feeling like rushing a game on D1 is scummy?

[IcemanCh]

UNVOTE:


I'm shocked that no one pointed out that FF was at L-2 from RVS. It took 2 pages?

So far I'm leaning Town on trinity. I've seen her scum game..... this game she feels more natural.

I don’t understand the big deal about being L-2. I thought L-1 was the important one, as then it just takes one more to lynch. Why would you be shocked?

Maybe shocked is the wrong word. It's more an etiquette thing especially when its obvious that there wasn't supposed to be an actual wagon.

I'm not saying you did anything wrong. Just odd others didnt point it out.

[IcemanCh]

well, even so we have plenty of time.

im used to 96 hour days(4 days RL) at the maximum and we have double that plus one day.

these daylengths feel abnormally long to me, but I know I have plenty of time

This was a HUGE adjustment for me at first. I was used to 48 hours.

The nights are the worst. 48 hours..... really? We do 24 or when all actions are received. Usually with 20 PRs sending in actions.

[IcemanCh]

Iceman, who do you think Oka's insistence that the game go fast is scummy?

On this forum it's generally regarded as scummy. I kind of agree. The downfall of town is chaos, lack of information, or rushing things. All of our power is in the day when we can discuss and review comments. Speeding that up creates chaos and causes town to make mistakes, miss information, or not have a chance to review past comments for accuracy.

Basically speed only benefits scum.

Scum lurks in order to starve the town of information.
Scum creates and appeals to emotional responses in order to create chaos.
Scum insists on speed I'm order to force people to make mistakes.

[IcemanCh]

Sorry typing in phone.


I'm going to bed so there won't be any more responses from me for a bit.

[IcemanCh]

I always feel like I come across as scum when I just sheep

Are you talking about this game or in general

In general. I feel sheeping can be lazy and is anti-town at best and scummy at worst. I feel like if I'm voting or someone else is voting they should always give a contributive reason. Never vote because someone else voted that way.

[IcemanCh]

The votes moved from FF to Flicker and who FF and Flicker are voting for.

FF might have gotten caught early and then talked his way out of things. That said, I have known him to be lynchbait, but a really good player, so I have a Null read on that dynamic of the game, however, because both Flicker and FF are voting the same person who seems to have produced a wagon out of nowhere seems pretty suspect to me.

Also, Nacy's post on this page seem to have Town tone and I know Nancy to be a pretty good Town player and they are voting for Flicker. I need to look into Stan1ey's progression and vote on Flicker more, but that is where I am at atm.

I feel like you didn't really read the thread at all and just skimmed. That's kind of scummy. Everyone knew/agreed that the wagon on FF was RVS.

[IcemanCh]

Quick, read game pls thx

Don't really want to. I usually don't even replace into games with 200+ posts, so you're lucky to have me as it is.

This is horrible.....

[IcemanCh]

Soo....... I feel like OKa is a bad or scum. Not sure which.

I also think Trinity is town. She's new and clunky but, I've played a few games with her and nothing seems scummy so far. I've seen her play scum and.... well you'd know.

I really want to vote quick and get quick lynched. To me only scum would come in and throw up their hands and say I'm not reading anything. Here's a vote count. Here's my reads. Don't worry those cause my reads are garbage because I didn't actually read anything. If town came in and refused to read the game they wouldn't then turn around and give reads.

I also think Oka is pushing mis-lynches. Trying to snag the easiest ones. Weird that he's not jumping on Quick as that seems the easiest to me at the moment.

[IcemanCh]

I think I'm a bit lost at the moment. I've lost my town read on Nancy..... Please Nancy come back to town. I wanna believe. She seems to have just faded a bit and is just poking holes in everything. Not necessarily a bad thing but, doesn't seem like the way things started at first.

Trinity, Go take a look at some of FFs other games. His play this game seems exactly like his town play. I'll go looking for one of his scum games and compare though because I've only played with town!FF.

Quick, I'm not sure what to ask you..... Have your reads changed? Not sure if the answer is worth it.

Oka, I don't mean to restate this but, you really seem to be looking for the easiest lynches instead of looking for scum. I don't like it. Also, what do you think about quick?

FF, do you think that Oka is a better lynch then Quick and why?

[IcemanCh]

Iceman lmao, I've made 135 posts, we're not even 1/4th of the way through the dayphase, I've said I'm waiting for 1-2 specific things to happen before I spew more reads, I feel good about where I'm at with the game and I'm trying to get a feel for the slots that I don't have much of a read on, I'm not sure what more you expect from me lmao

You should talk to me about your FF read in a way that isn't just meta, because meta sucks

Also your Trinity read. Please don't tell me that's also just meta or I think I might cry

They are both meta.

Hold on I'll go through and read more.

[IcemanCh]

Soo....... I feel like OKa is a bad or scum. Not sure which.

I also think Trinity is town. She's new and clunky but, I've played a few games with her and nothing seems scummy so far. I've seen her play scum and.... well you'd know.

I really want to vote quick and get quick lynched. To me only scum would come in and throw up their hands and say I'm not reading anything. Here's a vote count. Here's my reads. Don't worry those cause my reads are garbage because I didn't actually read anything. If town came in and refused to read the game they wouldn't then turn around and give reads.

I also think Oka is pushing mis-lynches. Trying to snag the easiest ones. Weird that he's not jumping on Quick as that seems the easiest to me at the moment.

SRing me because I am not caught up is a horrible reason to SR someone. Like, seriously?

I think I'm a bit lost at the moment. I've lost my town read on Nancy..... Please Nancy come back to town. I wanna believe. She seems to have just faded a bit and is just poking holes in everything. Not necessarily a bad thing but, doesn't seem like the way things started at first.

Trinity, Go take a look at some of FFs other games. His play this game seems exactly like his town play. I'll go looking for one of his scum games and compare though because I've only played with town!FF.

Quick, I'm not sure what to ask you..... Have your reads changed? Not sure if the answer is worth it.

Oka, I don't mean to restate this but, you really seem to be looking for the easiest lynches instead of looking for scum. I don't like it. Also, what do you think about quick?

FF, do you think that Oka is a better lynch then Quick and why?

I am still developing reads. I probably will not get fully caught up and you saying that is Scummy is odd to me.

I'm SR you because you refuse to get caught up. That triggers me as a scum thing to do. Even if you are being obvious in announcing that you won't be catching up.

[IcemanCh]

Rip.

Well any way at all that you're able to articulate the reads would be helpful I guess. Kinda feel like if I can get a handle on FF and Trinity then the game is pretty much solved, so I could use as much input as possible even if it's horrible evil meta stuff. And if you're able to talk about them in a way that isn't meta then even better. We can talk more later as well when I go over my own reads on them.

Am sleeping now, goodnight!

So if I look at just this game and ignore meta then.... I have to be honest in that I would struggle to place Trinity as town. I would put a scum lean on her either though. In isolation to this game she reads mostly neutral to me.

For FF looking at just this game I would say he's a town lean. Actively engaging, pushing people until he's satisfied, and giving clear reasoning behind his reads. This to me is town.

Adding in meta for both trinity and FF just gives them a bump into more towniness.

Is meta really that wrong to look at?

[IcemanCh]

is anyone else scumreading trinity? I feel a bit lonely. i know ice has made an indication.

In isolation to this game the best I could do so far is neutral. So far my scale is below.


Town - nancy Formerfish
Lean Town - Ergon
Nuetral - Trinity Flicker Stanley
Lean Scum - Oka
Scum - Quick

[IcemanCh]

is anyone else scumreading trinity? I feel a bit lonely. i know ice has made an indication.

In isolation to this game the best I could do so far is neutral. So far my scale is below.


Town - nancy Formerfish
Lean Town - Ergon
Nuetral - Trinity Flicker Stanley
Lean Scum - Oka
Scum - Quick

why aren't you voting tho

I did.... didn't I?

[IcemanCh]

I guess I hadn't voted.

VOTE: Quick

I'm putting my vote here for now. I don't like what's happened so far. I will change my opinion after Quick has made some solid reads/effort that is at least not anti-town.

[IcemanCh]

As far as other things I don't like about Ice, his case on me is pretty bad if I am being honest. It's basically just one thing he is SRing me for and it's something that I don't think is AI.

I mean it's not though.... It's not conf!scum but, it's enough for me to feel comfortable pushing on you. The fact that you keep twisting it into something it's not and that you're so defensive about the entire thing makes me feel that I'm right about it.

The basic fact is that only scum or anti-town just throws votes/reads out there with ZERO to back it up. Your entire first read was based on a completely bad analysis of the vote counts and everyone called you on it. The fact that you didn't read in and of it self is just anti-town. The fact that you attempted a bad read and then just shrugged your shoulders is what makes me think scum.

PLing is reserved for play that is blatately Anti-Town and it's been demonstraighted that there is a pattern of this. Ice is basically making the argument that IC's have a BoP, which is asanine since I don't think anyone has a BoP and secondly he is assuming ALL IC's opperate this way, which is kinda disgusting. You should vote people based on if they are Scummy or not, not because they just happen to still be in the game. It's completely backwards logic.

I'm not sure why you're trying to consistently twist what I say. I'm not for a policy lynch on the IC. What I am for in the lack of any good leads putting extra scrutiny on the IC as the most experienced player and one that can easily sway the game as scum. The key part here is the LACK OF ANY GOOD LEADS. If the current game state was right before LYLO I wouldn't lynch Nancy since I'm fairly confident she is town and that is a lead. In the first game that I played we went to LyLo with the IC. The IC was town. I had a scum read on them the entire time. I'm very aware that not everything fits into nice little rules that can be used to sort people.

ONLY Scum do that? Orly? I think I pointed out to someone that just because I haven't caught up doesn't mean that that is Scummy, it just means that people haven't seen Town do that before, or they are just trying to push that as Scummy. I have seen lots of Town not catch up after replacing in.. It's not Scummy at all. Some people make a that their regular way of replacing in, Titus being one example. Also, I didn't say nor imply any of what Ice is pushing on me.

Yea, that's nice that you can find some obscure reference for a different player that did the same thing you did. Totally means you're not scum /eyeroll

Why is that Scummy? It's not, you've just never come across anyone who doesn't catch up as Town. In fact, it sounds like this whole read is based on the theory of what YOU would do as Town Scum instead of actually looking at why I have taken this course of action. Theory reads don't get you that far actually, and I've known Scum to use them more than Town, so...

This was never answered. Instead, we see the following two posts where Ice goes Straight to putting me as his biggest SR to promply voting for me shortly after that.

It's not the act it's the motivation. I suspect that you replaced into a scum slot, thought you could throw something super scummy out there and get away with it. Cause everyone would say..... no way would scum come in and do something so scummy. Must be lazy town.

Town's motivation is to find scum. In order to do that you have to put the work in. You have to understand the current game state. You have to understand the history generated so far.
Scum's motivation is to sow confusion and convince everyone to lynch town. You don't HAVE to have an understanding of the current game state to do that.

So you have three options as scum.

1. Read and catch up. Put the effort in and jump in to mix in with everyone.
2. Don't read and wing it. Maybe you can get by maybe you can't.
3. Don't read but, announce you won't read. That way any bad reads or mistakes can easily be brushed off as... oh I didn't know about that history.

Sorry..... Not catching up is the most Anti-Town thing I can think of. You're basically asking everyone to start over.

His case is so weak I can't even believe it's a thing, let alone something to make someone a top SR.

VOTE: Ice

Saying it's weak doesn't actually make it weak.

Every post since from you has just confirmed my suspicion of you being scum. The last time I saw this from someone they were just about to be lynched. They threw and absolute tantrum over it. Thrashing about and swinging at everyone. It worked cause they scared everyone off through emotional appeal. Made the game an absolute toxic mess. And it worked. He was scum, he got all the PRs revealed the next day before he finally got lynched. It took two power role claims to finally get him lynched. So I don't think what you're doing is unreasonable but, it is 100% scum.

[IcemanCh]

Here is your OMGUS, bud.

VOTE: FF

tbh I feel like you are just trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake. Plus that excuse about trying to catch up when you were pretty much already there was pretty bad.

Someone remind me how this isn't a scummy thing...

Tantrums and toxicity are Scum calling cards when they are caught.

[IcemanCh]

Like, I don't think this is an accurate take on FF at all? He hasn't been satisfied in his push on anyone, has he? And he's barely given reasoning for his reads at all, so my response to that is, uhhh????

No, I don't think he's been satisfied but, he can speak to that. I'm more talking about how he's not really jumping all over the place. He's pretty consistently pushing OKA right now. I don't think the current game state is allowing for him to push on Oka as much as he would like.

Definitely would like him to run me through his FF read in as much detail as possible because that's very strange to me and one of the few things that's really concerning me about his ISO here. Would sorta like to see a lot more of him, too, since he said that he was interested in being pretty active this game and I just haven't seen huge levels of engagement from him so far. Am also a very little bit concerned about how bare his ISO is in terms of showing the work he's done to arrive at the reads he has, so a bit more of that rather than just posting readslists would be pretty great.

Oh... this makes me feel bad lol. I feel like I've been WAY more active and engaged compared to other games. It might just be that this is one of the fastest paced games I've been in. We're filling several pages everyday.

One my struggles with this game is "showing my work". That's why it's been me posting readlists and then answering questions. I'm not good at the wall posts like everyone else is. I'll try to get into more details around my reads when I can instead of relying on Q&As.

I also base a lot of my reads off of theory. Basically I view the game as trying to match peoples comments to behaviors that scum/town would exhibit. I then push on the scum reads to see if they continue to conform to scum behaviors or if they don't. I know quick thinks that's a bad play but, I'm struggling to see why. If you don't have a list of likely scum/town behaviors then how else do you scum hunt?

[IcemanCh]

@Nancy thanks for the info about meta. I'll try to back out of my meta reads and use more information from just this game.

My read on FF so far is probably tainted TBH because I've played the last two games with him. The first one he came in as SUPER aggressive but, he came in when there was a ton of toxic play and pretty much when in throwing swings at who he thought was scum. He ended up as town but, I had a scum read on him. The second game I played with him was much more like this game.

Anyways, I'll try to reform my thoughts around FF and come up with a new read in isolation to this game.

[IcemanCh]

@Nancy thanks for the info about meta. I'll try to back out of my meta reads and use more information from just this game.

My read on FF so far is probably tainted TBH because I've played the last two games with him. The first one he came in as SUPER aggressive but, he came in when there was a ton of toxic play and pretty much when in throwing swings at who he thought was scum. He ended up as town but, I had a scum read on him. The second game I played with him was much more like this game.

Anyways, I'll try to reform my thoughts around FF and come up with a new read in isolation to this game.

Hey it's super cool that you're so receptive, and I'm really glad you read the whole thing. I kinda feel like it was a bit much to read and I probably should have just posted the four dot points and left the examples out.

Anyway it's great that you're trying to be aware of his playstyle, I think this fits pretty neatly under what I mentioned as a good way to use meta. Like, you have an understanding of how he /can/ play as town, in a way that you found scummy, so now you know that that specific behavior from him isn't necessarily scummy. Doesn't mean that he's mafia for not playing that way or that he's town if he plays in the same way, just means you have a better feel for what level to read him on.

What was his alignment in the second game?

He's been town in all the games I've played. So I guess I'm missing what his scum play looks like.

[IcemanCh]

I am having second thoughts on Ice. Reason I was SRing him before is because a lot of his thought process in terms of reads is just plain wrong, but maybe he is actually just a newb and doesn't know any better.

Ex. Him saying nancy poking holes in everything is Scummy... That's actually pretty damn Townie IMO. His Thought process is overly black and white which is not something I would expect from someone playing in games with 20 PRs. I can explain this, but don't feel like it. I have a lot of experience all over the web so just trust me on this. Still, he has this kind of ignorance that I can't help comes from Town.

Seen this twice. I play TOS style mafia on a website dedicated to an MMORPG..... so... I dont feel like a newb. I consider my self somewhat decent there because I do actual reads where as the rest of the players rely mostly on night actions and TIs.

So I guess I am somewhat new but not totally new.... but everyone calls me a newb.

[IcemanCh]

VOTE: Oka

I'm hoping on the Oka wagon.

I'm revising my read on Trinity to town. So Trinity, and FF are both my town players along with Nancy.

Come on Nancy, get on the wagon.

I also think Eragon and Why_Mafia have a town lean.

Sooo.... That leaves Flicker, Oka, and Quick.


Quick has moved slightly less scummy. Flicker is for all intents and purposes null to me.

So..... Time to push Oka.

I don't get the constant "Tell me why you think I'm scum so I can debunk" posts from Oka. Does that not seem like a good way to learn how to post to avoid specific peoples scumdars? I also don't like how defensive Oka is. For me a Townie is completely ok with being lynched as long as it provides a path to winning for town. So I would think a town player would be scum hunting and ignoring most of the stuff sent their way from fellow town player. To me the only time to address other peoples scum reads on me are a quick clarification to any questions/concerns and then move on. Don't bring it up again unless the person's reasons are scummy.

[IcemanCh]

@flicker i think formerfish has a decent chance at being scum, but I'm townreading quick right now.

@trinity, okay, how about you point to specific pieces of evidence in which you think im scumymy? i still want you to interact with me.

@iceman the point is its how i interact with people, so point to some specific pieces of evidence, tell me why im scum so i can debunk.

Honestly, I don't care or want to know about you debunking anything about my scum read on you. If I think you're scum why would you say anything truthful to me?

What I do care about is how everyone else reacts to my reads and debunks or proves it. I also care about your reads on other people and how you prove them.

[IcemanCh]

So if you want to talk about my reads on others or your reads on others let's do it.

[IcemanCh]

u have a pretty good gut then

hey if you and then everyone else refuses to interact with me im not going to be developing good reads, it's just going to be like nancy who talks to me and i dont need developing on that read

It's not gut it's just that if I think you're scum then I have to assume that you'll say anything to get out of the rope.


Sooo......

Why do you think Quick is Town? Also, I'm seeing Flicker as null. Is there something I'm missing there?

[IcemanCh]

I'm super swamped at work. I'm on page 29. I will catch up later today and post comments.

[IcemanCh]

Honestly, I don't care or want to know about you debunking anything about my scum read on you. If I think you're scum why would you say anything truthful to me?

What I do care about is how everyone else reacts to my reads and debunks or proves it. I also care about your reads on other people and how you prove them.

I really strongly agree with this approach, as long as you don't let confirmation bias bleed into your read and start assuming that you're right and that everything that your scumread is saying and doing is a lie. Always keep an open mind and be ready to reassess if something happens to challenge your worlds.

Of course but, you don't really say that directly to someone when you're scum reading them do you?

[IcemanCh]

I don't think I could possibly disagree with this sentiment more than I do.

Your most important job as town, the number 1 thing on your to-do list, your first and highest priority, if you do one thing and absolutely nothing else in the game, should be to clear yourself as town to the rest of town.

You don't have to catch all the mafia. You don't have to catch ANY mafia. If you clear yourself as town, if the rest of town is able to see you as town, you've done your job, that's good enough.

[

I don't know if it matter but, for the record I disagree. I know.... a newb telling and experienced player they disagree. My first priority is to lynch scum. If that requires that I get lynched so that town can get valuable information so be it. I'm totally down with getting lynched as long as it results in exposing scum. That is my goal.

[IcemanCh]

I can't make heads or tails of the Flicker post. I can't tell if it's just that she's a newb and is reading into things in a really strange way or if it's that she has a ton of TMI and I don't think I'm in the right frame of mind to try right now.

@Flicker I really need you to be more present. You have less posts than the mod right now and that's really not okay. I really need more from you here because I think you might be mafia and there's just enough for me to go off to see that you're town if you are here. You don't have to make wallposts. Your posts don't have to be truthbombs or full of gems. Just a bit of thread presence and sharing your thoughts on things that are happening would go a long way.


Kinda want to move my vote onto WhyMafia but I do need to go over FF properly and figure out my read on him and I'm super wiped and can't do it now.

It's funny you point that out... I didn't even notice that Flicker had only a few posts. Usually I pick up on that. Is that scum playing? Post big enough content to look active but, actually skating under radar?

[IcemanCh]

From my perspective, I don't care that much about being town read, either. I mean, it sucks to be scum read, but if I get mislynched, my alignment will be revealed and people will look back over my posts, and if I've hunted well enough, maybe I can still help solve the game. I also feel like trying so hard to be town read can be a little scummy, because I feel like scum have even more motivation to be town read than town - if they can get locktowned, they've basically won the game (I would know, this is basically how town lost my first newbie game). So, yeah, it's important to be town read, but some people have a hard time being town read and are better at hunting.

Rather than trying to funnel everyone into doing this one thing, why not encourage people to play the best version of their own games? I mean, there's no one right way to play mafia, right?

I really like this post. It's exactly how I think town should play. Not defensive. We don't care if we get lynched as long as scum get's it in the end. Town should be open, honest, and straight forward in order to help everyone town read them and find scum. Scum have to lie and make things up and pretend. Eventually they will screw up. A town doesn't have to lie and so has nothing to screw up on.

[IcemanCh]

I'm gonna be honest, the first time I read this it really hurt my feelings. I said in my intro post that I'm lower activity and tend towards wallposts, and I feel like you're just attacking me based on my play style and the fact that I can't post when you're around (which is basically 100% when I'm asleep). I'm also not trying to post "truthbombs" or anything like that, I'm just trying to be as transparent as possible.

FWIW, my posting window right now is between 10 AM CDT and 2 PM CDT, and the only person who's been around during that time is Oka, whom I've engaged with a little - clearly not enough for you, but I am trying. I guess I could also try posting in the evening, when Formerfish and Quick seem to always get on, but usually I'm busy or I've depleted my energy for playing mafia earlier in the day. I can make more of an effort to break up my wall posts into more manageable chunks, but I'm not gonna upend my life for this, so if you just wanna policy lynch me for not playing well enough or whatever, go ahead.

Now, I feel bad.

If you're town keep doing you. No worries will figure it out.

I do think it's kind of messed up to bring in the sad face. To me that feels like a scummy thing to do. I always relate emotional appeals to scum and logic to town. So to me this is hey back off cause if you look deep I'm scum. So..... if you're town keep posting the way you are. I like wall posts and TBH we all have to post when we can.

[IcemanCh]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

Its going to be hard for me to read trinity this game. She only has 1 in and it was a scum game. I just dont remember her speaking like this last game and in the back of my mind im thinking she is going overboard acting townie because she thinks its going to hide her when it just makes her stick out.

You have a point. She wasn't as confident or flippant about things. I don't know though cause it kind of makes me want to say trinity is town.

[IcemanCh]

@iceman read on trinity?

I go back and forth. It's difficult cause I've played with her in my last game so it's kind of tainted you know.

In isolation to this game I would have serious concerns about her being scum. She snagged on to FF as scum and tunneled him without giving anyone a real reason as to why. It's like she just picked someone and went with it.

However, it would be super gutsy for a scum to go after someone so active and in the mix of things. It would be a super difficult mislynch. There's way easier lynches.

Also, bringing the other game experience into it and I would say this is probably her town play. If it's not she's being coached really well from behind the scenes.

Does that make sense?

Basically, I'm stuck with a slight town read on Trinity and I'm not sure how to see it as more town or less town at the moment.

[IcemanCh]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

Its going to be hard for me to read trinity this game. She only has 1 in and it was a scum game. I just dont remember her speaking like this last game and in the back of my mind im thinking she is going overboard acting townie because she thinks its going to hide her when it just makes her stick out.

You have a point. She wasn't as confident or flippant about things. I don't know though cause it kind of makes me want to say trinity is town.

Im saying that we cant say this is her town game because this isnt her scum game. Right now her scum game is anything because of how her first game went. She isnt going to be doing the same thing that got her killed day 2. It just feels like it went to far in the direction of trying to look town.

Ninja Oka- Thats what I am trying to say, we cant say that just because this is different that it is her town game.

I get what you're saying.

I was more agreeing that her play is different here.

[IcemanCh]

How is it that we have no wagons? Everyone has a vote...... this is a nutso game. Scum is pulling a fast one on us.

So who's been convincing us to move our votes around and reassess our read so that we don't form wagons?

There's more town here then scum we should be able to start coming to a decision.

[IcemanCh]

@iceman read on trinity?

I go back and forth. It's difficult cause I've played with her in my last game so it's kind of tainted you know.

In isolation to this game I would have serious concerns about her being scum. She snagged on to FF as scum and tunneled him without giving anyone a real reason as to why. It's like she just picked someone and went with it.

However, it would be super gutsy for a scum to go after someone so active and in the mix of things. It would be a super difficult mislynch. There's way easier lynches.

Also, bringing the other game experience into it and I would say this is probably her town play. If it's not she's being coached really well from behind the scenes.

Does that make sense?



Basically, I'm stuck with a slight town read on Trinity and I'm not sure how to see it as more town or less town at the moment.

Is it gutsy though? She kinda voiced her opinion, and solidified her vote supporting anyone else who did the same.

But when pressed for evidence she said she did an iso and decided FF was town.

It would be gutsy if she produced evidence and went ham at FF but she didn't, she kinda skated by with a scumread.

I meant it was gutsy in that she went after him at all.

[IcemanCh]

If we look at pure name recogintion and participation. Would anyone disagree that Eragon, Flicker, and WhyMafia float to the top as possible scum?

FF has been super engaged and consistent.
Trinity has been floating around but, in the mix with everyone else.
Oka has been crazy invovled even if I have a feeling he's scum.
Nancy.... I mean do we need more?
Quick.... well I don't like him for town. I think he's scum but, he's engaged a lot.


So does it seem odd that if I had to award participation awards I wouldn't give them to Eragon, Flicker, and WhyMafia?

They appear long enough to give reads and then gone.


Maybe, I'm nuts.

[IcemanCh]

I'm saying its not gutsy to say "you are scum!" and then not push it or really do anything much about it.

I dunno.... If I were scum I would be pushing someone everyone else is pushing or finding the weakest one to push on. I"m lazy. I'll go for easy everyday.

[IcemanCh]

Except my point is Trinity's participation is superficial and ultimately fake.

I dunno. I don't see it.

I see her as newb and hard to read because of it.

[IcemanCh]

Look at her posts. Bunch of them are compliments and supporting others, bunch of them are clarification about herself, and her questions seem to have no possible development for reads.

I don't think I'm going to be able to change my view on here without a major scum slip. Something would have to happen on D2. I'm fairly convinced she's a mislynch.

[IcemanCh]

I 100% get that I'm letting the last game bleed into this one.

[IcemanCh]

Look at her posts. Bunch of them are compliments and supporting others, bunch of them are clarification about herself, and her questions seem to have no possible development for reads.

I don't think I'm going to be able to change my view on here without a major scum slip. Something would have to happen on D2. I'm fairly convinced she's a mislynch.

Um.

Talk to me about how you went from saying that you had a slight townread on her a few posts ago to being fairly convinced she's a mislynch now?

Maybe, I'm stating it wrong. I have a slight townread on her so that would mean she's a mislynch to me if we lynched her. Why else would I lean her town if I didn't think she should not be lynched?

[IcemanCh]

No? Iceman was saying that we should policy lynch the IC the day before lylo.

Wrong that's what several people misconstrued it into.

I reiterated my point several times in that its very easy for new players to completely trust the IC by mistake. The IC can easily manipulate the new players and sometimes do it on accident.

My statement was that if the IC is still around by day 3 there should be some extra scrutiny placed on them. More so then a non-ic.

[IcemanCh]

I'm going to unvote so that I don't have to watch thread carefully to make sure people don't get overexcited and hammer him when have ~5 days until deadline.

Unvote

No... this is not normal. What's up with thay.

[IcemanCh]

K fine.

As of now you are my top scum pick

[IcemanCh]

I'm going to unvote so that I don't have to watch thread carefully to make sure people don't get overexcited and hammer him when have ~5 days until deadline.

Unvote

I'll be honest this is super sus to me.

Oka has been all over the place and not in a good way. He's swinging around and grasping at straws. He's being super defensive and irrational. HE IS SCUM. Why on earth would you jump off a wagon that's at L-2? That makes zero sense. Even if he was at L-1 you shouldn't be jumping off. If someone LOLhammers then we got a another scum out of it. Either way we get a scum.

I'm seriously starting to wonder about the town read on you.

My town read is 100% based on the amount of posting, the detail to the posts, and the searching for scum. But, as I look back at it there seems to be more playing to each person. Like the way you've won Trinity over.... it just seems odd.

[IcemanCh]

I'm also starting to wonder about FF. What's with the coasting. Where's your super strong Scum reads. Where's your stands being taken? You jumped off a wagon to hit Quick be never went anywhere after that?

[IcemanCh]

Come on TOWN we need to start working together towards SOMETHING.

Throw me up on the block for all I care. At least then we'll start getting somewhere. We have 45 pages of content and in that we haven't been able to get a good wagon going. WTF?

[IcemanCh]

We haven't even gotten anyone to L-1. Scum is just trying to wear us all out and make us forget anything that's already happened.

[IcemanCh]

@Iceman your stated philosophical inclination is that mafia games should go slow, so why do you find it suspicious that I might want to slow down the gamestate rather than risk someone ending the day early at a point where we still have a third of the day phase left? Why would you be happy with a lolhammer? Even if Oka is scum, that's bad play. Half the game hasn't taken a stance on his lynch right now.

@Oka if I didn't lynch you, I would lynch Quick, because he seems very intent on doing exactly nothing.

I'll say some words about wagons and such later. People need to check in.

This seems like you're misconstruing what I'm saying on purpose. Maybe, I'm just getting cabin fever.

I don't want the game to speed up. I want it to have direction. At the moment town is floundering about. Nothing useful is being done and no one is really learning or trying to learn anything. Everyone is just kind of sitting back.

Also, you taking your vote off doesn't slow down the game. It just chockes it for information. A wagon isn't successful unless it makes it to at least L-1 for a while and even then a good announcement for a hammer is super helpful. It forces people to take stands and get their hands dirty. What you've done is let everyone off the hook and stopped anyone getting their hands dirty.

Now you're just sitting their with no vote. Why? What are you waiting for? Who's your best scum read and why are you not voting them?

[IcemanCh]

Formerfish is a strong player who strongarms lynches.

He attacks, picks, and essentially bullies his target whether he is right or wrong until others can see his way and get his target lynched.

But he doesn't stir the pot, Formerfish does not openly challenge others to a 1v1. More likely if you piss him off he just ignores you and tries to get others to vote his target.

This is what I've seen of FF as well.

[IcemanCh]

Everyone in the game needs to take a stance on the Trinity lynch. I personally don't think there's almost ever a world where she's town here after her readflip on Oka. I think her flip clears Oka and probably Quick. I think her FF read is weird but I have 100 eyes emoji at 569 and don't think I would clear him as a partner just because she was scumreading him and buddying people who were voting for him.

pedit FF, why are you completely ignoring Trinity's post?

pedit Quick cut it out. I am reporting your posts.

Lynching Trinity would be a mislynch in my opinion.

[IcemanCh]

Unvote

Kinda don't want to risk a hammer before WhyMafia has a chance to get back to me.

This is 1000% a scummy thing to do. Again.

[IcemanCh]

Formerfish is a strong player who strongarms lynches.

He attacks, picks, and essentially bullies his target whether he is right or wrong until others can see his way and get his target lynched.

But he doesn't stir the pot, Formerfish does not openly challenge others to a 1v1. More likely if you piss him off he just ignores you and tries to get others to vote his target.

This is what I've seen of FF as well.

You've seen me in two games and we haven't had a player like quick in either of them.

Right..... but that doesn't make my comment wrong.

[IcemanCh]

Either way. For whatever reason. Your game is different in this game.

[IcemanCh]

Unvote

Kinda don't want to risk a hammer before WhyMafia has a chance to get back to me.

This is 1000% a scummy thing to do. Again.

I disagree. I can see how it can seem scummy, but think about it this way. If you think Nancy is scum for this then it'd only be scummy if she was bussing and pulled off her partners wagon like that. You've pointed out that she's done it twice now to different people. She can't be partnered with them both.

Now town is going to want to run people up, get some info and then regroup. It sounds like she is trying to get a read on WM and doesn't want the day to end before she can get those answers in case they end up being important.

I know that in a game recently I was cut off by the mod closing the thread for night. I had been working on this big post to explain where I thought the game was if I died. I never got a chance to post it because I was the nk. So I can understand why town!Nancy would pull off in those cases. She's not saying she isn't interested in the lynch anymore, just that we have a bit of time to look for some more answers.

It's not the association that makes me feel like it's scummy. It's the insistence on controlling the thread and what information the town has. It wouldn't come as such a shock if she did it when the intent to hammer was announced or after a claim has been made. The entire thing to me feels like a way to stunt the growth of town. We've been forced twice to stop a wagon and then get scattered again. To me scum is trying to run out the clock . I can tell you I'm 100% fatigued at this point. I don't want to look at the tread and try and reassess anything. Scum is winning.

[IcemanCh]

I still think Nancy is town I just don't like this controlling nature of the town wagons.

I also think it's a big mistake to lynch Trinity. I know I'll regret this if she does flip Scum but, I"m going to call it now. She's town.

[IcemanCh]

I still think Nancy is town I just don't like this controlling nature of the town wagons.

I also think it's a big mistake to lynch Trinity. I know I'll regret this if she does flip Scum but, I"m going to call it now. She's town.

Is this the same confidence that made you hop off the 2.8 train last game?

That was me being indecisive. I had him as scum and then second guessed it. Hopped off and was wrong. I'm trying to stick with my reads more unless something comes up to shatter it. I haven't seen anything to change either my scum read of Oka or my town read of trinity.

[IcemanCh]

If we look at pure name recogintion and participation. Would anyone disagree that Eragon, Flicker, and WhyMafia float to the top as possible scum?

FF has been super engaged and consistent.
Trinity has been floating around but, in the mix with everyone else.
Oka has been crazy invovled even if I have a feeling he's scum.
Nancy.... I mean do we need more?
Quick.... well I don't like him for town. I think he's scum but, he's engaged a lot.


So does it seem odd that if I had to award participation awards I wouldn't give them to Eragon, Flicker, and WhyMafia?

They appear long enough to give reads and then gone.


Maybe, I'm nuts.

I don't think you are nuts. Players lurking hurts Town... a lot. but sometimes people have a lot of other stuff going on while playing. It's not always the same on other sites which I am sure you are aware of having played a few 48/24 games. Sometimes I feel like games move at a snail's pace on this site. I've actually tried not to post as much as I usually do, because usually I get SR for that because people can't keep up but I am actually only a mid-activity player on most other sites, site depending.

Is this still more or less where you are with reads? I should probably do a final Reads List before I (or someone else) hammers.

If I had to do an order from town to scum I think it would go like this. I don't think they've changed much.

Nancy - Town
Trinity FF - Somewhat town
Eregon Flicker - Null
Why Mafia Quick lean scum
OKta - Scum

[IcemanCh]

I'm sorta wanting to agree with Nancy and go with it. What do you all think?

[IcemanCh]

I'm sorta wanting to agree with Nancy and go with it. What do you all think?

Why do you need to hear other people's opinions, though? Also why don't you find it scummy that I'm doing this when you've been scumreading me whenever I move my vote before?

It wasn't that you were moving you're vote it was your reasons for moving the your vote.

You kept taking off your vote so no one would hammer and it prevented pressure from being applied.

This is different because you're moving for good reasons that kind make sense to me.

[IcemanCh]

why does iceman want to leave someone he marks scum to someone he marks null is the real question

Because there's more then 1 scum right?

Also, her reasoning and logic just resonate and make sense to me..... Does that make sense?

[IcemanCh]

Anyway I'm out, I'll be keeping up and stuff but I have laid out my reasoning, y'all can agree/disagree as you please. I'm not interested in muscling anything through or dictating where the lynch goes with the holy powers of persuasion. Think for yourselves and don't be sheep.

Pull pin, throw grenade, walk away.

[IcemanCh]

I don't agree that pressure is no longer there when I take off my vote. I think you can push people very effectively and apply a ton of pressure without ever voting them.

@WM I don't have an issue with that post from Oka.

That's just not true and I'm not 100% sure why you keep saying it. I might be new but, I know effective pressure only really comes from intents to hammer. Which you've made sure we've avoided at all costs.

[IcemanCh]

We can add Flicker to the list of need to be sorted tomorrow.

Trinity is at L-1 right?

[IcemanCh]

Well make that a double intent.

I don't think she's scum. I think I've lost interest in pursing Oka as scum. For now. I think I have other questions.

UNVOTE:

[IcemanCh]

I don't agree that pressure is no longer there when I take off my vote. I think you can push people very effectively and apply a ton of pressure without ever voting them.

@WM I don't have an issue with that post from Oka.

That's just not true and I'm not 100% sure why you keep saying it. I might be new but, I know effective pressure only really comes from intents to hammer. Which you've made sure we've avoided at all costs.

One of my best friends who plays mafia almost never uses her vote. She has been playing way longer than I have, she is one of the best scumhunters I know, and she has pushed through more lynches without ever even voting the person than I have pushed through while voting them. Believe me, your vote is important but you don't need it to apply pressure to someone or even to lynch them. Not that I'm saying you should play like her... just have an open mind.

\
I have an open mind but, I haven't seen any actual pressure from the way you're doing this. It's just the rug being pulled out from under town.

[IcemanCh]

Everytime town get's their footing BAM it's gone.

[IcemanCh]

Well make that a double intent.

I don't think she's scum. I think I've lost interest in pursing Oka as scum. For now. I think I have other questions.

UNVOTE:

Why have you lost interest in Oka? Now would be the time as we’re so close to this mislynch on me.

It's probably better worded that I'm shelving my scum read on him at the moment. I'm tunneling him and it's not letting me push anywhere. We are not going to get him lynched today and I think for towns sake you have to be lynched. It is a mislynch but it's the only thing that will allow town to move on. I'll be very interested to see what he does tonight.

[IcemanCh]

I'm going to hammer in an hour after I've had coffee

[IcemanCh]

If you think Trinity is a mislynch, then don't hammer her, Iceman. Jeez. What the heckie.

That is silly. She is town but, getting her flip will help reveal scum.

Odd that quick hasn't hammered like he said he would and he's letting me do it.......

VOTE: trinity

[IcemanCh]

It'll be interesting to see what scum does tonight.

[IcemanCh]

I am coming around on Trinity. Feeling more and more like that is Scum.

Going to consolidate the wagons at this point, hate unvoting FF, but we need stances on stuff.

(was going to vote Trinity here). No longer going to because Trinity is at L-1.

Consider this an intent to hammer.

This was over 24 hours ago.

[IcemanCh]

I'm not really sure where to go from here. I have suspicions of Nancy... bet you could all predict that. I also still suspect Oka still. I really hate D2 because it's the day that everyone starts to look like scum to me.

VOTE: Oka

[IcemanCh]

VOTE: Eragon

[IcemanCh]

@nancy why the unvote if eragon is no longer at l1?

Because she HAS to control the direction of town. Pull it around by the nose hairs. We're gonna have another month long day.

[IcemanCh]

iceman? why the l1 and naked vote?

Sorry, I know it's taboo to do naked votes. I didn't have time to do a full post and put all my thoughts down.

So..... all my reads are jacked up. This is the point in the game where EVERYONE seems bad to me and I second guess everything. Plus, I'm a little fatigued having 60 pages and not much actual actionable info from it all. You guys are much better and extracting data to use from 60 posts then I am.

Anyways, I switched my vote to eragon because of your post. It makes a lot of sense. I kind of feel that when you look at everything that happened Eragon refused to put his vote on anyone because he was trying (IMO) to see where town was headed. To me the not voting thing was a scum player waiting to see where everything went.

I'm taking my vote off of Oka cause I see less scum there.

[IcemanCh]

Also, I did check to make sure it wasn't a lol hammer and I knew it was L-1. I should have announced it. Sorry.

[IcemanCh]

and why is having a long day bad?

The long day isn't so bad but, we're on page 63 with (what I feel is) very little actual information. Maybe, I'm just a bit frustrated but, I'll get over it.

[IcemanCh]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating or asking for things to go faster.

What I want is for us to work towards a clear direction on getting scum and not being so scattered. I'm also tired of being led around. If you think someone is scum put your vote there and leave it there until you decide otherwise. Pulling your vote because L-1 is just frustrating. There's no intent to hammer. We're all paying attention. This isn't a lylo.

[IcemanCh]

Here are my horriable reads at the moment.

Oka - Town. Blew my mind too but yea. I'm feeling oka as town right now. I don't know why but, the post about Eragon just made sense to me and things like that tend to make me think town.
Eragon - Scum. It's pretty scummy IMO to not vote until everyone else does. Get in there and get messy. Stop sitting on the sidelines. Scum sits on sidelines.
FF - Scum. I always get suspicious of people defending me. Sorry, I tried not to feel scummy about it but now I do. Plus while I get what you're saying about your play from previous games you have to understand that it's all I have to go on.
Nancy - Scum. Leading town around even subconsciously is pretty scummy. I will say this. Anyone who uses my entire spiel about the IC being suspicious had better drop it. I don't care what read I have on Nancy. If scum takes me to LyLo I'm going to be sheeping her 100%. No questions. Whatever she votes I vote. So don't you dare take me to LyLo.
WhyMafia - Town. This one is harder to explain. Call it gut. I hate calling it gut though cause as a townie I should be able to logically explain where I'm at. I can't though.....
Quick - Town. I want to say scum but I can't. I think Quick's approach is so different from my own that I want to call him scum for it but he's been 100% consistent with it and I have to sit back and say that there isn't actually anything scummy there.

[IcemanCh]

I feel bad putting FF in the scum bucket. Does that make it right?

Sorry, man.

[IcemanCh]

Why do you want others to talk before you?

also note the new deadline, hesitation isn't going to do town any favors.

Because it helps me sort them better.

Am not really planning on making too many posts this day phase, mostly interested to see who does stuff without me and who sits on their ass.

Am not really planning on making too many posts this day phase, mostly interested to see who does stuff without me and who sits on their ass.

thats my case

I support this but, I'm not moving my vote yet.

[IcemanCh]

I feel bad putting FF in the scum bucket. Does that make it right?

Sorry, man.

For these reasons?

FF - Scum. I always get suspicious of people defending me. Sorry, I tried not to feel scummy about it but now I do. Plus while I get what you're saying about your play from previous games you have to understand that it's all I have to go on.

Not even a little bit, but you do you, ill do me. Didnt i defend you last game as well though, and I was right to because you were town getting talked up for some bullshit, just like here?

Yea you did. And I scum read you in that game to lol

[IcemanCh]

Oh, iceman, I didn't say anything before but you literally don't get to say anything about people being in control and not hammering early after your hammer at EOD yesterday. Kindly take your ideas home and burn them.

[IcemanCh]

I didn't hammer early. I stated my intention. I gave more then enough time for anyone to say stop or do something differnt. When it came down to the final moments I again announced and made my intentions very clear.

You can't misconstrue that into a LOLhammer.

[IcemanCh]

VOTE: Nancy

[IcemanCh]

I think Scum is either Nancy and FF or Nancy and Eragon. Either way I want the question around Nancy cleared up today.

[IcemanCh]

I didn't hammer early. I stated my intention. I gave more then enough time for anyone to say stop or do something differnt. When it came down to the final moments I again announced and made my intentions very clear.

You can't misconstrue that into a LOLhammer.

I said way before that I wanted flicker and eragon to catch up before hammer. Which they had just started doing, when you hammered. Right after I said don't hammer and you told me to go fuck myself.

Jesus I hate this site.

This is a straight lie.

[IcemanCh]

That was hyperbole, Oka, lol. If someone asks you not to hammer and you ignore their request and hammer, that's a pretty big fuck you gesture

This is also not true.

[IcemanCh]

Like, Oka, do you understand how incredibly frustrating your play is for me right now? You tunneled on my strongest town read yesterday and convinced everyone that she was mafia to the point that even I doubted my read and started to wonder if I was being stupid. And then with WM's help I realized that no, I wasn't being stupid, but it was too late, you had already trashed her and there was nothing I could do. And then today you start pushing on me, of all people, and for nonsense reasons. After everything you did to trash day 1 for me. After I put more effort into the game than anyone else. Did more to solve than anyone else. Went through the trouble of getting to town on you. Are you actually trying to drive me insane, or what?

Pedit no dude. I don't get tilted as scum. I nearly replaced out during the night phase, my girlfriend tried to convince me to do it but I refused to because I have a stupid sense of obligation. I cried when trinity was getting lynched because I knew she was going to flip town and I was helpless to stop it and it's against my process to hard defend people on day 1. I lost my mind and started pushing on flicker, because i just couldn't deal. I am 100% done with this site and I'm leaving after this game because even newbie games aren't safe anymore. Like yeah I shouldn't be posting this because it's a bad example to set as IC and I'm supposed to the one in control but emotions are part of the game and it's incredibly insensitive of you to push on me after everything that's happened and then say that it's scummy that I'm frustrated

Not trying to be harsh or mean. Cause, talking about real life stuff is good and this a game and we shouldn't get frustrated over it but......

You're AN IC. You know how games are played. You know how everyone has to assume anything said in the game is just the game. Nothing in this game is personal. This is a complete scum post. You're doing an emotional appeal to get a town read. This is wrong and you know it. If the game really is a stress for you then I'm not sure why you're an IC and I'm sorry for being harsh. But, as a town player I have to assume post like this are coming from scum. It's just how the game is. I have to assume anyone can lie and that anything can be used. There is no rule on this site that you can't give a sob story as scum.

IF it's a real situation I am truly sorry that you feel that way. This is after all a game. I do however as a town game player have to take this post as fake.

[IcemanCh]

No, quick, I'm leaving because the site is so toxic it makes me toxic. I'm leaving because the only people who are left play like RC. I'm leaving because even newbies are toxic now and there's nothing good or safe left on the site.

What in the world does "doing it on purpose or something" mean?

It's depressing because WM is a friend, I love the way he plays and he was my rock this game.

HA. funny you mention RC. I HATE HIS GAME. It's the worst.

[IcemanCh]

So I don't get it. We've a melt down because why? I'm seriously not trying to be harsh but..... I'm struggling to understand how two players voting someone means the sky is falling. Maybe, I'm just being insensitive but, I'm really trying to understand.

I'm down for a Nancy lynch or an Eragon lynch. I'm not convinced on Quick yet.

[IcemanCh]

on a side note im thinking about a formerfish lynch, what about everyone else?

I don't think I'm anywhere near supporting an FF lynch.

[IcemanCh]

I think most of us agree on Eragon so maybe that's where we should focus and then sort the rest out tomorrow.

[IcemanCh]

Oh hey, iceman still didn't talk about what scum got revealed from his hammer. Fancy that

I mean.... What do I say. For me no.... it did not help or at least it hasn't yet. I guess it did in that there are two less players to read meaning a random selection of someone would have a higher probability of hitting scum?

I was hoping that it would bring clarity and maybe help poke out a few people. It hasn't and most of my reads have just been turned around.

[IcemanCh]

VOTE: eragon

I have three possible scums at the moment. Eragon, FF, Nancy. I don't think Quick is Scum and I'm not really sure where my head is at with Nancy and FF. I feel fairly comfortable with a vote on Eragon.

[IcemanCh]

That's L-1

[IcemanCh]

VOTE: eragon

I have three possible scums at the moment. Eragon, FF, Nancy. I don't think Quick is Scum and I'm not really sure where my head is at with Nancy and FF. I feel fairly comfortable with a vote on Eragon.

What has you thinking nancy is Scum again?

Tin-Foil mostly.

To me what I see is that every time town starts to gain steam and go in a particular direction it is immediately derailed by Nancy. It's almost predictable that when we all start moving in one direction there's a Nancy post tearing it apart and forcing us in a different direction. Now, normally this isn't bad. We need to be right when we lynch. It just seems too coincidental every time though.

Like even right now she say Ice is town and then a few post later makes it seem like I'm 100% conf scum to her. I think it might just be joking around but, it's still there.

The entire vote thing super rubbed me wrong too. Town's greatest tool is the lynch and threat of lynch. A wagon only kind of has meaning before a threat to hammer. Most of the games I've been in so far the most valuable information comes from the intent to hammer. That's when everyone on the wagon has to either affirm their conviction or give a damn good reason to get off the wagon. It's also the point where very real pressure is being applied to the person being wagoned. It's when claims are made and mistakes are either made by scum or not. Every time we got close to getting real pressure put on someone Nancy jumped off. That's fine .... if you have a good reason. And, I'm sorry but, jumping off only because you don't want to lynch yet is just straight up wrong. Maybe, do it once... fine but, she's done it what? four times. That to me is a scum trying to get town to go bonkers and second guess everything. It's worked too. Look at our Day 1. Town was EVERYWHERE. They should be at first but, as the day wears on things should start to salitify and town should start somewhat working together.

[IcemanCh]

He thinks I'm scum because I unvoted when I thought eragon was at L-1.

Also, eragon isn't at l-1 iceman.

Wrong/right.

Not that one action in and of itself. It's all of the actions of pulling town around by the nose hairs and jumping off any wagon that starts to gain any steam whatsoever.


So far you can pretty much guarantee that once a wagon with Nancy on it starts to get momentum she'll jump off because "we shouldn't lynch".

[IcemanCh]

He thinks I'm scum because I unvoted when I thought eragon was at L-1.

Also, eragon isn't at l-1 iceman.

So apparently I can't count.

[IcemanCh]

Ice, do you think scum-nancy would bus scum-eragon rather than go for a quick lynch (pardon the pun) in this game state?

(that's not a leading question, I'm genuinely curious and want to see your thought process)

I'm not really sure how to answer that to be honest. I struggle sometimes with understanding how those types of reads are made. The only thing that I could even attempt to do is tell what I would do.

The answer is no. If I was Nancy and Eragon was my scum buddy I wouldn't at this point bus him. By bus I mean go through with a lynch and get everyone else on board. I also wouldn't' push Quick. It's too obvious. Let town simmer and stew of awhile. If they land on Eragon then I'm already on Eragon and it wouldn't be an obvious bus but I would get towncred for it. If the wagon stays on Quick for a while maybe I could jump on it but, it would be really difficult because I (Nancy) have been steady town reading him through out the game. So I would have to come up with a good reason for it. Also, worth noting is that most everyone has a scum read on Eragon right now. So it makes sense for her vote to be there in case town get's tired of playing with other and decides to finish a lynch on Eragon.

I think the better lynch (if I was Nancy and scum and Eragon was my partner) would be FF.

Does that make sense?

TLDR: If Nancy and Eragon are scum then it makes sense for her vote to be on him right now instead of one of the other wagons. I don't see her ever lynching Quick. The only real option would be FF. I don't see her letting Eragon get lynched just yet either unless town really picked up steam on scum reading him and getting on it.

[IcemanCh]

I can only think of a few things that are possible

1) he pre-determined to SR me and just never really looked at any of my posts because he is scum and thought I would be an easy mis-lynch
2) he has strong TR’s on everyone else and I’m just PoE, but that’s not the case because
2a) he said he loses confidence in TR’s D2
2b) he only had 3 TR’s and 3 SR’s, so I’m the scummiest of the 3
3) he keeps all his progression to himself and didn’t post about it, which is probably what he is going to say but I still think hats scummy, because it shows no progression and doesn’t allow discussion, which is what he advocates for.
3)

Mostly two.

[IcemanCh]

I guess to expand on it more. I have given reasons. Mostly around the way D1 voting went down. But Poe is also part of it.

[IcemanCh]

I guess to expand on it more. I have given reasons. Mostly around the way D1 voting went down. But Poe is also part of it.

Yes, you really do.

your reasons are only D1 voting, which ive already explained is the way I play.
PoE isnt really a reason, its more a process

The way you play pings me as scummy. Sorry?

[IcemanCh]

so im guessing FF isn't a possibility today?

I think for me as of now it's not. Things change but I want to see the Eragon thing through first

[IcemanCh]

And POE does apply. I see Oka as town. I see Quick as maybe town. I see sky as maybe town. That leaves Eragon Nancy and FF. FF and Nancy are the weakest scum read by a long shot. So that leaves Eragon. Maybe it better put that Eragon is my weakest read out of everyone so he is the one I'm voting for.

[IcemanCh]

And POE does apply. I see Oka as town. I see Quick as maybe town. I see sky as maybe town. That leaves Eragon Nancy and FF. FF and Nancy are the weakest scum read by a long shot. So that leaves Eragon. Maybe it better put that Eragon is my weakest read out of everyone so he is the one I'm voting for.

why sky good guy?

Not sure yet. When I come up with a compelling reason I'll let you know?

[IcemanCh]

I guess to expand on it more. I have given reasons. Mostly around the way D1 voting went down. But Poe is also part of it.

Yes, you really do.

your reasons are only D1 voting, which ive already explained is the way I play.
PoE isnt really a reason, its more a process

The way you play pings me as scummy. Sorry?

uhm...

ive already explained me not dropping votes every 5 posts is just my play-style, and I have proof of it as town as ive already proven before when both Nancy and WhyMafia pushed me about the voting. and I showed that me not voting is not a scum-tell

Yea, I totally have this scummy thing that I do but, I can explain it because it's my town play so you should ignore it because it's how play town.... no, no, I understand you think it's scummy but, I've explained it that it's not so you should stop thinking that it is.


- Eragon

I know that Nancy and Quick have both told me that there is no such thing as a "scummy" behavior and that you have to read everything individually. I'm glad that works for them but, it doesn't work for me. In society there are rules that people follow and if they are not followed then people label them as bad people. The same thing applies to the game off mafia. Sure, those rules change from site to site much like cultural norms change from locale to locale. My interpretation of someone holding back their vote is that they are a scum planning their move and unwilling to get their hands dirty and show any conviction. Just like my interpretation of not talking would be to label someone scum or not participating in town, or not helping town. It just how things work. If you play outside of the rules you'll end up looking scummy to some.

[IcemanCh]

I don't mean that post to sound as snippy as it might be coming across. I'm trying to paraphrase what you're saying and what it sounds like in my head. I'm trying to be open with you and show you my side of the fence.

[IcemanCh]

I'm not trying to be mean.

[IcemanCh]

Yo mr iceman i totally agree with how you scumread, thats how i scumread too

but i feel like skygazer is doing that more than eragon and arguably formerfish too

read skygazer for me and see if you come to same conclusion

I'll read sky and get a fresh read. You should consider putting Eragon at L-1 so that we can have a real wagon. Let's twist his arm a bit and see how he reacts.

[IcemanCh]

I think you're right that I'm ignoring Sky for the most part at the moment. But, that's because I want to sort Eragon 100% before I move on.

[IcemanCh]

Meh, no l1 on eragon until I hear a good case on Eragon (from nancy hopefully)

Sounds good to me. I'll reread sky and post something tomorrow. I said early that it's a gut read and that's mostly cause I have not delved into their posts. For the most part Sky's slot has flown under the radar.

[IcemanCh]

Eragon, where are you getting this "I proved my town meta" stuff? I read the game you linked and immediately pointed out that you made a serious vote early in the game in like your 5th post.

Oka, I'm probably going to put FF to L-1 if he doesn't talk about his reads and such in the way that he said he would. You can't just soft PR and expect people to leave you alone because of it.

He made a soft claim?

[IcemanCh]

Quick. Read this very carefully.

As scum I would have more reason to stay out of nancys way when she started in on you. As scum I would have sat on the sideline of that with a tub of popcorn and watched you swan dive off the high board into an empty pool.

I feel like to matter what happens today you guys arent going to even pretend to look other places.

Should I just claim here so we can all be on our merry ways?

i think this is the soft claim in question, now that nancy is going to talk about it

Ohhh..... That changes things I think? If we were town reading it we should let it slide but, since we're not it is something we should push. Right?

[IcemanCh]

i dunno about that one nancy, formerfish basically soft claimed cop before and told us who was inno and we had a page of being awkward and scum didn't end up noticing so yeah

Wow I really am bad at this game. I missed it. How are you deducing cop?

[IcemanCh]

It explains why he's quiet and different.

[IcemanCh]

I have no response to his claim at this moment.

[IcemanCh]

I have no response to his claim at this moment.

Implying you might at a later moment?

Yea, but not specifically around his claim. I need to redo my reads list with the assumption he's town until he's not. So until we have a CC or someone flips something that makes a doc impossible then I should assume town and redo my reads.

[IcemanCh]

Intent to hammer.

Eragon, please claim.

Do you not have any input into what's currently going on?

UNVOTE:

[IcemanCh]

VOTE: Quick


I don't like the complete skirting of the current topic and declaring an intent to hammer

[IcemanCh]

then what if we flip skygazer first

Why not quick?

[IcemanCh]

Hes at L-1 by the way. Unless I can't count.

[IcemanCh]

I think we should flip quick or Eragon to be tbh.

[IcemanCh]

but im a selfish ass and i dont see a good case on quick yet

Ok well. What are the town things that he's done?

[IcemanCh]

@eragon @quick you both need to claim asap

Also, anyone hammering please make sure that everyone is okay with a hammer before dropping it

I'd personally rather wait until as close to deadline as possible

I was just getting ready to point out that Eragon slipped by.

Also, I'm good with the hammer.

Also, it feels like towns working together. I"m very happy about this.

[IcemanCh]

@eragon @quick you both need to claim asap

Also, anyone hammering please make sure that everyone is okay with a hammer before dropping it

I'd personally rather wait until as close to deadline as possible

I was just getting ready to point out that Eragon slipped by.

Also, I'm good with the hammer.

Also, it feels like towns working together. I"m very happy about this.

Heh, and here I thought you'd be hating me for moving off the l-1 eragon wagon

Your reasons made sense.

[IcemanCh]

@eragon @quick you both need to claim asap

Also, anyone hammering please make sure that everyone is okay with a hammer before dropping it

I'd personally rather wait until as close to deadline as possible

I was just getting ready to point out that Eragon slipped by.

Also, I'm good with the hammer.

Also, it feels like towns working together. I"m very happy about this.

Heh, and here I thought you'd be hating me for moving off the l-1 eragon wagon

Your reasons made sense.

You are so creepy

What did I do to be creepy?

[IcemanCh]

Now we await eragon claim

Wanna just massclaim or no

No mass claim. That just gives scum a target list.

[IcemanCh]

@eragon @quick you both need to claim asap

Also, anyone hammering please make sure that everyone is okay with a hammer before dropping it

I'd personally rather wait until as close to deadline as possible

I was just getting ready to point out that Eragon slipped by.

Also, I'm good with the hammer.

Also, it feels like towns working together. I"m very happy about this.

Heh, and here I thought you'd be hating me for moving off the l-1 eragon wagon

Your reasons made sense.

You are so creepy

What did I do to be creepy?

Emoticons lmao

Also you've been way more chilled out about everything in the past 24 hours or so. Which is nice, but... Creepy

I feel like emoticons help convey what is sometimes lost in just typed responses.

Also, yea I feel like town is working better. The game is going good. It's easier to keep energy up when it's that way.

[IcemanCh]

Emoticons convey I'm fake btw to me

Depends on context and the environment. I've found that things are often loss in typing. Emoticons can kind of help bring some of it back.

Like hey.... I'm saying something that could be construed as mean but, if we were face to face you would see my face smiling because I'm totally just playing around with you.

That's completely lost when typed. So there are times when it's appropriate.

[IcemanCh]

ALso, Mass claiming is a HORRIBLE idea. Let's not.

[IcemanCh]

Well, we clearly don't have a guilty, or else we would have heard about it already.

I don't get how this is what you're posting when you're on the verge of being lynched

Wouldn't defending yourself be considered scum though?

[IcemanCh]

But that wasn't a hammer?

[IcemanCh]

No it wasn't.

[IcemanCh]

Votecount 2.09

Quick (3) -

Formerfish, nancy, IcemanCh

Formerfish (2) -

Quick, Eragon

Eragon (1) -

Skygazer

Skygazer (1) -

OkaPoka

Not Voting (1) -

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2018-07-31 17:20:00).

VOTE: Eragon

Nah fuck that

VOTE: Quick

[IcemanCh]

I'm pretty sure I can count.

[IcemanCh]

And, that FF can't count when drunk.

And, that Oka can't count when.... not drunk.

[IcemanCh]

as you can see there were 3 before and now there are 4 therefore quick is dead

Are you having a piss?

[IcemanCh]

sometimes i ask myself

is making this post really necessary?

You fucking make my head hurt.

[IcemanCh]

Quick's dead. It's official. Come on Quick tell us if we got it right or not. We don't need to wait for Micc to wake up.

[IcemanCh]

I'm Town.

That is EXACTLY what a scum would say.

[IcemanCh]

BTW, did someone claim intent before I claimed? I wasn't paying attention really, just assumed I was. If not, what Oka did was pretty Scummy.

Yes, Oka is planning on hammering.

[IcemanCh]

God damit. I hate you both.

[IcemanCh]

UNVOTE:

[IcemanCh]

NOW WHAT

WHO HAS THE POWER NOW FOOLS

[IcemanCh]

I have intent to hammer Quick. I hammered Trinity I should be allowed to make it up on quick.

[IcemanCh]

i dont like this confidence

Put your vote on quick and let me do the needful.

[IcemanCh]

Time for bed. You're no fun.


VOTE: quick

[IcemanCh]

VOTE: Eragon


By the way. For everyone who said behaviors are NAI and fused at me for calling Quick not reading the thread a scum tell.....


WhO WAS RIGHT

[IcemanCh]

I'm VT

[IcemanCh]

Sorry didnt mean to lolhammer. Guess it worked though

[IcemanCh]

GG.

I hate quick hammers lol.

damnit oka ;_;

I had a plan.

also iceman, you were right, but for all the wrong reasons.
I didnt vote not because I was scum, but because thats how I play
quick didnt catch up not because he was scum, but because he didnt feel like it/want to

But as town he wouldn't have had the option to not read up because he would have to scum hunt.


You can say its how you play all you want. It's one of the things that got you labeled a scum

[IcemanCh]

Nancy hope you dont really leave. Part of the game was stressful but overall it was fun. D2 felt way better.

[IcemanCh]

I wonder if the better move would have been to NK me or Nancy.

[IcemanCh]

I still would have voted for eragon so I guess it depends on where sky and FF would have gone

[IcemanCh]

Nancy would've been the worst move, and you would've been a bad move

Why? You would have knocked out the neo. That would have left oka and sky unconfirmed.