A Story Revisited (Anything uPick): Day 6

[Shoshin]

I'm in the game?

[Shoshin]

RC confirmed that I'm in the game! Hello all! I was reading along until about page 10... so I have a lot of stuff to catch up on...

Based on my early notes (as written in a PM with RC), I had Vax, Chick, random, Gamma, and Nancy's hydra as town... and Lady Angel as my top suspect...

No idea what has happened since then, so that's probably not worth much... it was so long ago that I'll have to reread everything from the start anyway. I'm going out of town next week for Thanksgiving, so I probably won't finish reading this until after. But if anyone wants to give me a summary to help me play along in the meanwhile, that'd be appreciated, too.

[Shoshin]

The scumteam of Labyrinth Mafia quake in fear, as Shoshin has entered the game.

What huh?

It's my role.

[Shoshin]

So let's lynch Nico?

[Shoshin]

To be clear, I didn't replace anyone.

I signed up for the game originally and got a role PM back when the game started. My role was delayed entrance townie, because it fit with my character as myself from Labyrinth Mafia where my reads were ignored for most of the game. RC gave me a PM so that I could make notes while the game went on, and I did that for the first 10 pages or so, but not being in the game really killed my motivation to keep up, so I'm reading through now.

[Shoshin]

Uuuuuh

you aren't on any signup lists

I should be, unless RC edited me out. That'd be cruel of him.

[Shoshin]

I'm in the list of signed up players... I was a pre-in because RC asked me to sign up after Labyrinth.

[Shoshin]

Anyway, doesn't matter.

jjh927, what're your reads?

[Shoshin]

I'm not the kind of player to follow games if I'm not playing in them. Like, I barely read some of the games I'm in if I stop caring about it...

[Shoshin]

Anyway, be happy to have a fresh set of eyes for the game. It's a good thing.

[Shoshin]

Why would you lynch me? What kind of logic is that?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Nero

For suggesting that I should be lynched when I just joined the game and haven't even had a chance to post anything remotely indicative of alignment, plus my entrance itself was strongly town indicative because of RC's specific word choice...

[Shoshin]

The condition for posting was D4...

[Shoshin]

Lynching town is the scum motivation behind suggesting that I'm scum or suggesting that I should be lynched. Maybe Nero is town, but it's a place to start for me while I read through the game.

Gamma's suggestion that I be gladiated because I haven't done anything yet is also terrible. Yes, I haven't done anything. But that doesn't mean I won't.

[Shoshin]

I see.

And someone claimed a guilty on Mastina?

[Shoshin]

The condition for posting was D4...

This was explicitly told to you pregame?

It's in my role PM. It says I can't post until D4 because town is "ignoring" me... Yes, it's part of my theme: myself, from the Labyrinth Mafia game. For context, in that game I called scum on D2 but town ignored my reads until LYLO. So my role is Ignored (Delayed Entrance).

[Shoshin]

Any particular reason your entrance comes across as confused that you're able to post?

I forgot about this game until RC messaged me about it. So there was a sense of confusion, not that I could post (obviously I could, or I wouldn't have...), but at the existence of my role as a thing. I was empathetically mirroring what the rest of my fellow townies surely feel at seeing me randomly enter the game... a wtf feeling toward RC...

[Shoshin]

Jingle is strong town so far.

[Shoshin]

Hey Jingle, what are your reads at this point?

[Shoshin]

You're positive Mastina is town? Why?

[Shoshin]

Creature's feeling town to me so far. Can you explain that read as well, Jingle?

[Shoshin]

What's the problem with those posts?

[Shoshin]

Creature is town, 99% sure on that.

Jingle is back to null because his reads are really bad and poorly explained.

[Shoshin]

Where is NSG? Has she done anything useful?

[Shoshin]

What was the source of the townread in the first place?

You were actively leading the game when it felt unlikely for scum to do.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: NSG

[Shoshin]

Yep.

Porkens is town, though. For sure.

[Shoshin]

Nice! What are your other reads?

I've got Creature, Porkens, jjh, and Jingle as town so far.

[Shoshin]

NSG replaced Nancy's slot? Hmm, why'd Nancy replace out the game? I feel like she's more likely to do that as scum than town.

[Shoshin]

Though to be fair, Nancy's play felt pretty town in the early part of the game.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, Jingle's my weakest by far. I really don't like the way he's reading Mastina vs Creature.

Why Aristophanes?

[Shoshin]

He replaced random? I had random as town in the early game.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, just checked my notes. Random's town, so Aristophanes is as well.

[Shoshin]

Can you explain the townreads on Fire, Wheme, and Vecna? If we can narrow this game down to poe, we'll be in a pretty good position to win.

[Shoshin]

Lady, why townread Nero? Why scumread Nico?

[Shoshin]

I don't know, Jingle.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Nero

Back to this. Because NSG's probably town.

[Shoshin]

Nero, can you talk to me about your reads on Fire & Jingle?

[Shoshin]

Also, why are you reading Lady Angel as town?

[Shoshin]

What's this "hurt" thing?

[Shoshin]

I don't need pretty formatting, though pointing me to specific posts would be helpful.

I reread the first 10 pages or so, then decided to read the game non-linearly to get into things quicker.

[Shoshin]

I tried to read your ISO, it's filled with all these really annoying vote counts...

[Shoshin]

Yeah I voted Varsoon

I'm having trouble believing this based on what you said about Varsoon's slot previously. Why'd you vote him?

[Shoshin]

Are you town, Invis? If you're replacing out, at least do us one last favor and tell us your partners if you're scum?

[Shoshin]

The use of his ability there was a literal scumclaim which I could go into more detail on but see no reason to

Please go into detail. Your explanation for voting Varsoon over Nico still doesn't make sense to me.

VOTE: jjh

[Shoshin]

What's acceptable for you, Nero, isn't necessarily acceptable for others. I understand why some players would find Varsoon's behavior scummy, but I don't think it fits with jjh's personality or play up to that point in the game. It's a large shift in thinking, so it needs to be explained. If it's genuine, then it shouldn't be any trouble for him to explain his thought process.

[Shoshin]

Are you townreading jjh, Nero?

[Shoshin]

Thanks for the explanation, that's helpful. Can you also explain why Mastina is town, jjh?

[Shoshin]

Still waiting for you to explain why you are asking me about Fire and Jingle.

To help me sort you at the same time I sort them.

[Shoshin]

What's the difference between your towngame and scumgame?

[Shoshin]

Still waiting for you to explain why you are asking me about Fire and Jingle.

To help me sort you at the same time I sort them.

I mean they were both on my willing to lynch or gladiate. What does that tell you?

Not enough to sort you or them.

[Shoshin]

Didn't Creature say that Mastina is scum, though?

[Shoshin]

NSG's town.

[Shoshin]

I don't really overtly scumread anyone except NicoRobin, although Firebringer's a bit up there that might just be because of his adamance to lynch Mastina.

Can you talk to me about this Fire read? You think he's scum because he wants to lynch Mastina?

[Shoshin]

I agree on lynching Fire.

[Shoshin]

I feel like jingle is scum

Yeah, maybe.

[Shoshin]

I feel like jingle is scum

Yeah, maybe.

When are you going to do anything?

D6.

[Shoshin]

I am advocating for a Firebringer gladiate

Please do this.

[Shoshin]

If you call the game, RC, can I have a chance to guess the scumteam and if I'm right can town just win?

[Shoshin]

Can we just lynch Fire?

[Shoshin]

Why not Fire?

[Shoshin]

How many scum do you think this game started with?

[Shoshin]

I'm a protective role, actually. A bodyguard.

[Shoshin]

Fire, if you had to guess the entire scumteam at this exact moment, who would it be?

[Shoshin]

Meme Men, would targeting Firebringer/Adalbert Steiner + Another player be functionally the same as a regular cop with your role?

If it is, could you use your role like that tonight, please? Then you could clear/damn people a lot quicker.

I like this idea.

[Shoshin]

Why wasn't there a kill last night? Anyone have an explanation for that?

[Shoshin]

I know you're town, Fire. And so I'd like to start a conversation with you in hopes of working together to refine reads.

At the moment, I've got you, Adelbert, Pork, Creature, NSG, Gamma, Jjh, Vecna, Meme, and Lady Angel as town. The rest are null, leaning towards scum.

I'm also hoping that whoever stopped the nightkill can confirm townies outside my townreads, making the rest of the scum very obvious. And I think whoever stopped the nightkill should claim today to help with poe and also to make my targeting as a bodyguard easier.

[Shoshin]

I'm probably wrong about some of my townreads, so I need to figure that out, too.

[Shoshin]

Well, I understand your paranoia. But actually, I'm just trying to get a better grasp on the game, and I do a lot better when I can talk through my thinking with someone I trust.

[Shoshin]

Pork's strong town because I just played with him as scum and this is NOT his scum game. Not even close. As scum, he's blatantly pro-scum. He doesn't bus. He defends his partners blatantly and pushes lynches on town blatantly. He doesn't seem to care enough about the game as either alignment to actually try hiding his alignment as scum. He's also sort of trollish enough that he can actually get away with this as scum. But trust me, Pork is town. And anyone else who was in that recent scum game of Pork's (Gamma, NSG, Creature) can speak to this as well. If any of those three aren't townreading Pork (something to check), then I'd say there's a problem with one of those three before I ever suspect Pork here.

As for Lady Angel, I think her play around Mastina and analysis of the wagon afterwards feels very townie. I didn't like her play earlier in the game, but there's actually a lot of depth to her thought process that I don't think is easy for scum to fake. I don't know her that well, but my impression is that she wouldn't be strong enough to fake this level of thought as scum. I could be wrong on her, though. My weakest townread by far.

[Shoshin]

What are your reads on the other players?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Porkens

Why would you do this?

[Shoshin]

I also think the majority of scum bussed Mastina, since they needed her out of the game to have any fighting chance at winning this. Most the players who weren't voting Mastina are likely town.

[Shoshin]

A lynch has been achieved!

A Story Revisited

Votecount 4.241:

Mastina (9): Creature, Nicorobin, Gamma Emerald, Firebringer, Aristophanes, Whemestar, Shiro, Sora, Porkens
Firebringer (0):

No lynch (2): Lady Angel, Jingle

Not Voting: Northsidegal, Mastina, Adelbert Steiner, Invisibility, jjh927, Nero Cain, Vecna, Shoshin

With 18 alive it's 10 to lynch

The day will end in (expired on 2018-11-26 19:00:00)

Looking at this, I'd say maybe one of NSG, Invis, JJH, Nero, Vecna, Jingle, and Lady Angel is scum, with distant possibility that there's two scum in this group.

Most of the scum is in the group of Creature, Nico, Gamma, Aristophanes, Wheme, Shiro, or Sora.

Pork, again, is town.

[Shoshin]

I'm a bit confused. Who is Shiro & Sora?

[Shoshin]

If I had to call the scum right now, I'd guess between Nico, Invis, Wheme, Aristophanes, and Creature, with a distant possibility of Meme, Jingle, Nero, or Lady Angel if the scumreads flip town.

But it also depends on how many scum the game has? Despite people seeming to dislike my question, I think knowing how many scum there are is very relevant to sorting associations between all these players. I think we can narrow it down further if we work with a specific number, as that really influences how I read things.

[Shoshin]

Meme, what are your reads at the moment?

[Shoshin]

I'd lynch Meme before I lynched NSG.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, I saw the parity cop. Nico's scummy, as a general matter, but I don't see any reason to trust Meme's results even if Meme's town.

[Shoshin]

I'm a protective role, actually. A bodyguard.

And this matters how?

I dunno if it matters. But upon reflection, I think the right play as bodyguard is to claim it. Because I think it messes with scum's night actions in a way that benefits town.

[Shoshin]

Who have you bodyguarded so far?

I didn't bodyguard yet. Forgot to.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, I saw the parity cop. Nico's scummy, as a general matter, but I don't see any reason to trust Meme's results even if Meme's town.

Why not if Meme is town, ew?

Because these kinds of results haven't been trustworthy in my games... and I don't know what scum have to mess with it?

[Shoshin]

I didn't enter the game until D4 so no bodyguards... also I probably wouldn't have used the role until now anyway, since there wasn't anyone worth bodyguarding. But now that Fire's confirmed town, I actually have a decent bodyguard target.

Part of me suspects Invis as scum, since Mastina wanted to delay gladiating him until after Fire.

[Shoshin]

i guess i wrote that kind of poorly. i doubt that they are scum who just made random stuff up, but if meme men

are

scum just flat out lying, i think they will die very quickly if nicorobin were to flip town. i should hope that it wouldn't take my town flip to realize that, but that might be wishful thinking. either way eventually the truth would be revealed.

I'm not as confident about this. Seems to be a pattern in my games that scum fake results...

[Shoshin]

Did Nico claim yet?

[Shoshin]

NSG, if you had to guess the scumteam off the bat right now, who would it be?

[Shoshin]

Gamma, what are your reads?

[Shoshin]

Why is Wheme town?

[Shoshin]

I also heavily doubt that town has three protective roles and would advise looking in there after we sort the Meme Men/Nico/NSG situation out.

Why?

So far, all we've seen from scum is a role that is blatantly only useful for town and a role that forces a lynch, which backfired. While this can obviously be proven false the more scum roles we've seen, none of the claimed roles or roles we've heard about so far really would balance out town having three protective roles yet.

Strongman would easily balance any number of protectives.

[Shoshin]

I think Labyrinth had three protectives, with a scum 1-shot strongman.

[Shoshin]

Based on what you've seen, what's the difference betweeen Wheme's town/scum games?

[Shoshin]

Hey Fire, can you neighbor me?

[Shoshin]

What can I do for you to trust me?

I have a reason for you to neighbor me. There's a conversation (including information) that I'd like to have with you and only you.

[Shoshin]

I should be obvious town, so I don't get why anyone would suspect me.

I have a role that is likely town. RC's words when I entered the game all but confirm me as town. My behavior is far beyond anything I'm capable of as scum. And yes, I wasn't active for a bit because it was Thanksgiving (notice the drop in activity in all my games, including the other one you were in). But I am here, I'm reading through the game, and I'm putting way more effort than I'd ever put into this as scum.

Please trust me.

[Shoshin]

Well, I understand your paranoia. But actually, I'm just trying to get a better grasp on the game, and I do a lot better when I can talk through my thinking with someone I trust.

We already had a confirmed town in Steiner. Why didn't you try to talk to him earlier?

I don't understand how this question helps you sort my alignment. What would my answer tell you about my alignment?

[Shoshin]

I'd lynch Meme before I lynched NSG.

Can you explain this strong read on NSG some more?

Having recently played with both town NSG and scum NSG, I feel fairly confident that this is her town game. If you're curious, take a look at her play in Pokemon vs her play in TAZ. This feels closer to Pokemon. Like, there's a level of engagement with this game that's just completely absent from her scum game. Feels like she has actually thought about her reads. There's a few specific posts that I could bring up as well if need be.

That said, I'm not 100% on her. In the back of my mind, there's a inkling suspicion that she could be partnered with Lady Angel & Invis. But in either case, I'd lynch those two before I ever lynch her.

[Shoshin]

I think Shoshin is *kinda* scummy. Like, idk the impression I get is that she thinks she's super good player so I never really understood why she'd lurk and not do things. The whole "Nero is voting me b/c he's scum that wants to lynch me." was so fucking stupid and seemed a little scummy to me and I didn't like how Jingle was saying she was more likely to be 3p than mafia and that appeal where she used the mods words to try to argue that she was mod confirmed town BUT BUT given her role I think she's very unlikely to be in the original 5 scum. Let's hunt the remaining confirmed 3 scum and if the game isn't over we can come back.

I'm not lurking.

[Shoshin]

i am neighboring jingle for the rest of the game.

I am not at all confident about that. Can you explain this read?

[Shoshin]

i was thinking more disloyal realclaim

This seems to be inside knowledge on the part of Invis.

[Shoshin]

I strongly hope that Invis gets modkilled. Expecting that slot to flip scum.

[Shoshin]

At the moment, I'm calling the mafia as Nico, Invis, and Nero, with a chance that it's one or two of Jingle or Gamma.

[Shoshin]

If it's 6 mafia, then it's Nico, Invis, Nero, and one of Jingle, Gamma, or Lady Angel.

[Shoshin]

or even pay everyone in this game $10 through paypal if i was wrong.

I'm holding you to this.

[Shoshin]

Fire, what's your read on Nero?

[Shoshin]

Jjh is definitely town. Besides just being town from his play (especially early on), there's no way scum defends Mastina the way he did, just very very unlikely.

[Shoshin]

Nero's just probably scum, NSG. So don't worry too much about convincing him. The guy thinks I'm scum lol...

[Shoshin]

Hey Jingle, how are things going on your end? Any update on your reads?

[Shoshin]

probably nothing. I mean, you want to talk to fire b/c he's conftown. We had a conftowm before Fire that you never tried to work with. So I kinda agree with Fire in that in looks like you are buddying him but I'm not going to lynch you until we lynch the other 3 scum and the game is still going on.

btw this is a good example of why Nero's scum. Like, Fire understandably got paranoid that I was trying to buddy up to him... and I said as much. But Nero goes a step further and starts stoking Fire's paranoia with questions that Nero himself admits don't have any scumhunting direction or intent... he's just trying to make Fire more paranoid of me, which is a really scummy thing to do because that's how scum get town to mislynch townies...

[Shoshin]

Nero's reads suck throughout the game... he's constantly looking for townies to mislynch... and his reasoning doesn't make any sense from the perspective of a townie who actually wants to figure things out, he's just pointing out ways that townies could be scum in the hopes of getting those townies mislynched, he's done it thorughout the game (look at his read on Chick, for example), and he's doing it now on me and jjh.

[Shoshin]

It's long-term planning, Fire. He's been setting up mislynches since the start of this game.

[Shoshin]

Nero's also scum via poe. So, like, it's both behavior and the simple fact that everyone else (except Nico & Invis) is townier.

[Shoshin]

I'm certainly not "scummy," Nero's choice of word to describe me.

[Shoshin]

Meh, I'm going to try dying but who knows if that will happen? Last time I was a bodyguard (Labyrinth), scum left me alive all the way to LYLO. And I was able to bring a confirmed townie to LYLO as a result. So, like, who knows? Scum might think they can frame me (it's what they thought in Labyrinth) and ultimately I don't have much say in whether I'm alive.

[Shoshin]

Also, Nero was calling me scummy before I claimed bodyguard... and once scum start pushing someone as scum, they sometimes struggle to change how they approach a player in a fluid and natural way.

[Shoshin]

Meh, I'm going to try dying but who knows if that will happen? Last time I was a bodyguard (Labyrinth), scum left me alive all the way to LYLO. And I was able to bring a confirmed townie to LYLO as a result. So, like, who knows? Scum might think they can frame me (it's what they thought in Labyrinth) and ultimately I don't have much say in whether I'm alive.

who knows if u will die?
u have 2 conf town to BG.

they have to kill the conf town. wtf are u talking about

Scum don't have to do what town thinks they should do... again, see Labyrinth where scum intentionally tried to avoid killing me because they thought I was a mislynch...

[Shoshin]

Not sure why shoshin thought we were scum and now doesn't think we are, didn't see explanation for the leap.

When did I say that?

[Shoshin]

the other 3 confirmed scum.

Who are these confirmed scum?

[Shoshin]

I didn't know who Shiro/Sora was and it was poe based on just not knowing.

[Shoshin]

Fire's been pushing town this whole game. He pushed my strongest townreads early in the game (Vax, and Chick), as well as countless other townies throughout. Sure, maybe he pushed some scum at various points, but never with the conviction or passion that he pushed town with.

[Shoshin]

Nero

been pushing town this whole game. He pushed my strongest townreads early in the game (Vax, and Chick), as well as countless other townies throughout. Sure, maybe he pushed some scum at various points, but never with the conviction or passion that he pushed town with.

I mean Nero. Not Fire.

[Shoshin]

Hmm, I guess I could check meta...

[Shoshin]

Fire, why is Nero town?

[Shoshin]

Why is Meme more suspicious?

[Shoshin]

The Meme Men
Nero Cain
Gamma Emerald
Aristophanes
Lady Angel
Whemestar

Can you talk to me about these reads? Why is Nero/Gamma above Arisophanes/Lady?

[Shoshin]

Hey RC, ask Irrelephant to replace Adel please. I think he will be happy to replace a conf town slot and then just sheep me to the free win.

[Shoshin]

I’m only on 269 but why the nico votes

One of nico and nsg is scum right

So why nico and not nsg

Only reason why people are saying nico is because she was so sure mastina was scum like what??

NSG's probably town, so it's likely Nico?

[Shoshin]

Wheme's scum, though. 6758 settles that.

[Shoshin]

Tell me what I need to know/need to read please

Me, you, Fire, Creature, NSG, JJH, Pork, and Vecna are town.

Nico & Wheme are scum.

And then there's a bunch of nullish among Lady Angel, Meme, Aristophanes, Gamma, Jingle, and Nero. I'd say best place to start would be sorting these players to figure out the last scum.

[Shoshin]

NSG's probably town, so it's likely Nico?

Well NSG has to be scum if Nico is town unless you think Meme is scum and just why? Like you are saying that RC makes a role that powers scum and I just don't think that's a thing. I could see Nico hyper bussing Mastin and mainly ignoring the rest of the game.

I don't care what roles anyone claims to have. I care about behaviors. And as I said, I'd lynch Meme before I lynch NSG.

Why are you trying to outguess what RC would do in his games? He likes to do wacky things, in case you haven't realized yet.

[Shoshin]

I feel like Wheme's sharper than this as town. Anyone disagree?

[Shoshin]

Well, you don't seem to really go in depth about why you are reading the way you do or how you feel about things. It seems like you've mostly thrown a hissy fit when I was scumreading you and thrown out some random unexplained reads. I mean there could be more but that's really what I remember.

I'm telling you that my reads are based on behaviors, not what people claim or the investigative results they claim to have.

As for the why behind my reads, I've talked about them quite a bit? I've definitely talked about NSG & Pork, and I'm happy to talk about others if there's a particular one you're confused about.

[Shoshin]

Well, you don't seem to really go in depth about why you are reading the way you do or how you feel about things. It seems like you've mostly thrown a hissy fit when I was scumreading you and thrown out some random unexplained reads. I mean there could be more but that's really what I remember.

This feels like a very unfair characterization of my play so far. Can someone else weigh in on this? I need an outsider's view, please.

[Shoshin]

I think you think you're more obvtown than you are. Nero is naturally aggressive though, so don't take any of his wording too personally.

I don't take it personally. I'm more concerned with sorting Nero. He's trying to make it seem like all I've done is "throw a hissy fit" (where?) and "thrown out some random unexplained reads" (why are the reads automatically "random"?), but I've done a lot more than just that. Maybe the amount of time I've spent on this game doesn't show since I had to read 200+ pages but I've also been spent a fair amount of time interacting with players.

[Shoshin]

ok but I'm saying that you haven't really explained these behaviors.

I've left lots of my analysis unspoken. Is there some reason you think I can't weigh behaviors over roles unless I explain every single piece of behavioral analysis that I engage in?

You start out the game mostly defending yourself b/c there were some players that felt your late entrence in the game was scummy or something. I then vote you for ~reasons~ and you go batshit crazy.

I went "batshit crazy"? Where?

Hard scum reads Jingle. Hard scum reads Creature. Said you town read Jingle b/c he was "leading". Back to null on Jingle. Votes NSG. Town reads NSG. Town reading Jingle again and JJ is town. Jingle is your weakest town read. Ari is a town read. Drops the town read on JJH b/c you think his voting for Varsson made no sense.

You make it sound like there's something wrong with these changes... What's scummy about changing reads?

So I feel that my saying you have alot of unexplained and unexplained read changes is fairly accurate.

Yes, that's true. Is that all I've done? And even if it's all I've done, why is leaving things "unexplained" scummy to you? I feel like you should know better than to suspect players for leaving reads unexplained, since large numbers of townies don't explain reads and many don't even explain reads when directly asked to explain.

And the one's you have explained (JJ, NSG, Pork) it seems like its just "this is thier town game."

I'd like to hear words about Creature, why LA is no longer a town read, Vecna, and why Gamma is no longer a town read.

I said a lot more about those reads than "this is their town game." I went pretty in-depth on NSG & Pork, including discussion of their meta.

Creature replaced someone (forgot who). I remember townreading whoever Creature replaced, and then when I read Creature's post, that confirmed my townread on the slot. I have some tells on Creature that I don't think others have (it's not the typical ones of "how engaged oro awkward is he" that people usually point to), and this is clearly his town game.

As I said before, LA was initially a scumread in my notes based on the way she was reacting to the early dayvig thing and Vax. I strongly townread Vax in the first few pages of the game, and thought her response around that felt awkward and unnatural. I started reevaluating LA when NSG said she was town. I had NSG as strong town, so I took another look at LA. Despite some early awkwardness, she had more nuance in her analysis that I would have expected from her as scum, so I started thinking she was townish. I'm not convinced because there's still a part of me that feels some her reactions are unnatural, so she's sort of nullish at the moment, in my pile of potential scum but not at the absolute bottom.

Gamma was a townread earlier in the game because of his post about letting the game breathe. I thought that came from a town mindset of trying to let others weigh in and to prevent the game from clogging up too much with unhelpful posts. But none of his follow-up posts have felt great to me. He's just sort of there, not doing much. In my recent town games with Gamma, he ranges from just there (American Presidents) to actively thinking about the game a lot more (parts of TAZ, Pokemon), so it's hard to say his alignment. He's in precisely that nullish spot where I think scum tend to hide, since he's really managed to avoid too much pressure. I don't have clear thoughts on his slot at this moment.

Vecna obviously played with a post restriction early, so in my notes I had him as leaning town. I tend to view post restriction roles as more likely to be town than scum. It was a weak read. Then he started posting, and I think his analysis has a certain level of depth and nuance that I don't think scum produce easily. He could have continued posting simpler posts, especially after establishing his slot as one that would be difficult to sort, but instead he started really getting into the game in a way that felt very town.

[Shoshin]

I decided to quickly look back and I see lots of "explanation" for my reads and changes:

VOTE: Nero

For suggesting that I should be lynched when I just joined the game and haven't even had a chance to post anything remotely indicative of alignment, plus my entrance itself was strongly town indicative because of RC's specific word choice...

Explanation on voting Nero.

Lynching town is the scum motivation behind suggesting that I'm scum or suggesting that I should be lynched. Maybe Nero is town, but it's a place to start for me while I read through the game.

Gamma's suggestion that I be gladiated because I haven't done anything yet is also terrible. Yes, I haven't done anything. But that doesn't mean I won't.

Further explantaion on voting Nero, as well as analysis on Gamma's behavior.

Creature is town, 99% sure on that.

Jingle is back to null because his reads are really bad and poorly explained.

Explanation on changing read.

Yeah, Jingle's my weakest by far. I really don't like the way he's reading Mastina vs Creature.

Why Aristophanes?

Further explantaion on Jingle.

Like, this idea that I haven't been explaining anything is actually just wrong.

[Shoshin]

Nero's entire approach to sorting me feels fake and incredibly superficial. I don't get the sense that he's actually interested in figuring out my alignment here, and that is a massive scum-tell in my experience.

[Shoshin]

You're positive Mastina is town? Why?

Can you also explain why Mastina is town, jjh?

I'm also a little worried that these are the things scum say we they know their scumbuddy is getting misread.

Are you town, Invis? If you're replacing out, at least do us one last favor and tell us your partners if you're scum?

Also thought this was p scummy.

I do like these reasons for being susp of Shoshin btw.

What's scummy about any of this?

Also, in terms of Invis, keep in mind that I had just finished playing a game with Invis where he, as town who knew the player at L-1 was town because he was INFORMED of that fact at the start of the game, quick hammered that townie. Now, think about that. If Invis is willing to turn on his town team like that, then why wouldn't I try getting him to turn on his scumteam?

[Shoshin]

He tries to find ways in which a scum shoshin is trying to gather towncred.

That sounds like how scum think.

Town thought process = is this person town or scum?

Scum thought process = how can I find ways to make this townie look like scum?

I feel like Nero's doing the latter. How are you seeing the former?

[Shoshin]

town thought process should be; is this person thinking as a town person or as a scum person trying to look good.

my point is that his thought process actually seemed to follow towb thought patterns, since it was slightly beyond superficial how does it look

That seems like an unnecessarily convoluted distinction with no actual difference.

Consider: "Shoshin is trying to look good, which looks bad" vs "Shoshin looks bad." The former ascribes an intent that has no evidentiary basis and then uses that to argue the player looks bad; the latter simply calls the play what it is. In general, I associate the former with scum play and the latter with town.

[Shoshin]

I think Nero's paranoia about my questions to jjh is understandable, as an emotional response, but that doesn't make them legit reasons to suspect me. Vecna's response looks bad, trying to stoke paranoia about me, and his follow-up feels like he's at a loss to explain what he was thinking in 6847.

[Shoshin]

I'd prefer this day phase to last as long as possible.

[Shoshin]

profii, I'd love to discuss the game with you when you have a chance.

[Shoshin]

I have reason to extend day.

[Shoshin]

I'd like to give time to profii to get into the game, as well as to discuss the game with him a bit. Yes, it seems odd, but I'm making a decision between him and Fire about who I think is more valuable to save, and so I care about getting a sense of profii's take on the game.

[Shoshin]

It certainly won't hurt anyone to allow me to discuss the game with profii a bit. That's all I ask, please.

[Shoshin]

You do know that Proffi has a role that doesn't die right?

Really? I haven't looked at the claims much. What's his role?

[Shoshin]

wheme's scum AND town meta is similar to not_mafia's. Super bare and hard to read.

I tend to find Not_Mafia pretty easy to read. Not enough experience with Wheme to know, but in general I do pretty well at reading these "super bare" players. Wheme's definitely looking like scum here.

[Shoshin]

Why not Gamma?

[Shoshin]

Jingle, what're your reads atm?

[Shoshin]

Gamma feels like a pretty good lynch for today.

[Shoshin]

Currents reads (most towny to most scummy):

Profii
NSG
Creature
Jjh
Jingle
Meme
Vecna
Lady Angel
Nero
Porkens
Aristophanes
Gamma

I'm very strong town on everyone above Meme and can't imagine any of those players ever flipping scum. Happy to lynch between the bottom two today.

[Shoshin]

I should probably be lynched/confirmed/shot prior to LYLO, because I am the center of a lot of these unconfirmed roles. I'd like the opportunity to put my tracker role to the test until then, though.

I will bodyguard you tonight. Please use your role wisely.

[Shoshin]

I'd bodyguard one of Meme/Profii.

I thought Profii didn't need protection? And Meme is significantly less towny than you. I'm on you, NSG, or Creature.

[Shoshin]

Wait, so are we null or sr to you ?

You're a townread, but not nearly as confident as I am in my reads on NSG/Creature/Jingle, who I'm never lynching.

[Shoshin]

I agree that Wheme was killed. Whoever did the kill should claim, since it's basically town confirmation.

[Shoshin]

I have not. My only regret is not shooting Mastina.

Why'd you shoot Wheme? I got the sense you weren't really scumreading him yesterday? Or at least you were questioning my scumread on the slot.

[Shoshin]

You told Meme not to target? Okay... Why'd you question my scumread on Wheme?

[Shoshin]

Or am I confusing you with someone else? I thought it was you.

[Shoshin]

part of me feels like a scumWheme doesn't go to bat for their dying buddy or maybe that's the whole point, to make Wheme and Nico not look like scum together.

This post. Doesn't seem like you were going to shoot Wheme on scum Nico flip. What changed?

[Shoshin]

What if Jingle is right and the last two scum are Ari + JJ. Ari is the roleblocker that blatantly claimed his targets and JJ is the scums limited self protection role.

I doubt JJ is scum. Possible, but unlikely.

Ari/Gamma is more likely imo.

[Shoshin]

Who did you BG last night and why did you claim like right out of the blue?

I already said I claimed bodyguard because I've seen scum get thrown off by it. There's not much harm to claiming the role, and there's always a chance that scum change their nightkill from their preferred choice to someone else because they don't want to see me dying instead of a higher priority target.

I'm not going to say who I was on yesterday, lest scum try to predict my target tonight. Needless to say, I wasn't on Fire, which was probably a mistake, but I was trying to outplay the scum and thought they would shoot someone else.

[Shoshin]

Jingle is town.

[Shoshin]

So Vecna is scum?

[Shoshin]

Makes sense.

[Shoshin]

We're not lynching Jingle, wtf.

Jingle is town.

[Shoshin]

Actually, if there's two scum remaining, then Jingle could be scum. It's possible.

[Shoshin]

Jingle, or anyone who has kept up -- can you summarize in a single post all the night actions that we know about or that have been claimed by players?

[Shoshin]

Jingle, I was hoping you could give not just roles but what people have claimed as their night actions throughout the game. Have you kept track of that?

[Shoshin]

For some people. I didn't really care about others. Anyone in specific you're interested in?

All actions that you have would be helfpul. Not sure how you can expect to try solving the game through roles/actions when you don't have all the information in front of you. It'd be very helpful imo

[Shoshin]

Thanks for 7669, Jingle. That is very helpful.

[Shoshin]

Missing roles: Roleblocker -> confirmed to exist.
Redirection role?
Profii needs to corroborate loud actions.

Why must there be an indepenent roleblocker? It can't be Vecna's jailkeeper? Has Profii corroborated anything yet?

Is there any reason to believe scum have both roleblocker/redirector, or could it be a single player with both abilities?

[Shoshin]

Unless there's two scum left, Jingle's town.

[Shoshin]

Can Jingle, Profii, and Creature confirm they were targeted by Gamma?

[Shoshin]

Nero probably shouldn't shoot anyone tonight if there's a scum redirector.

[Shoshin]

Why are we lynching Jingle?

[Shoshin]

It's a very bad idea because I'm town and I'll probably die before LYLO through role. But I'm glad you're suggesting my lynch, because that's how we got confirmed town to LYLO in Labyrinth.

[Shoshin]

Spoiler:

Vote Titus

-Right Head, Shiro

If no one wants to join on Titus but we want to lynch someone who basically isn't here, then can I interest anyone in a randomidget lynch?

Mastina's anger about her role in the early game seemed relatively consistent with how she is as town killing roles. Also I don't think mastina lurks out as scum, I've seen her get really engaged. I think she's legitimately busy. I know if Mastina is town and she comes back she might actually be useful.

vs.

Randomidget hasn't posted anything since Saturday and his entire iso is basically empty of content so if we're lynching a lurk out null then I'd rather do that slot.

Vote Randomidget

-RH, Shiro

Also, this game is stalled because of the gladiate and the promise of this freeze now. I'm just getting bored of waiting. It fees like there's nothing to do since the game will sort itself out anyway.

So get it going with me by voting Varsoon.

See it's easy like this VOTE: Varsoon -Shiro

In theory, it could work.

In practice, it is killing the game.

If Mastina was willing to do her guilty after like 72 hours or something every time, then I wouldn't have minded blowing through day phases.

But spending *weeks* on dayphases that end on no lynching is so dull and uninformative it is extremely difficult to retain interest in the game.

She was being told to declare her guilty early on. She could have done so after everyone had checked in. There was no mindblowing cases being made. There was no proactive sorting. Everything was basically at a standstill, but she still just keeps dragging out the days because she's pretending that day *length* is somehow way more important than *momentum*

If I literally cannot remember who I'm scumreading anymore because I'm so disengaged from the game, that is *not good for my ability to solve the game*

Things need to actually happen every now and then.

So yeah, mastina had her chance. Now she either gladiates and gets lynched, or she gets lynched. But we are not keeping her in the game for another dayphase.

VOTE: Mastina -shiro

-RH

I actually scumread mastina

VOTE: mastina -shiro

-rh

Huh who is Sora?

We are

VOTE: Mastina - Shiro and Sora

-rh

VOTE: Nicorobin
That's the hammer.


-Shiro & Sora

Worried about the nihilism targeted claim but Gamma doesn't smell like last scum standing atm

VOTE: Ari -Shiro

-RH

I think the thing with porkens is that he seemed way diff than in children of hurin but I haven't actually read him at all outside that game

I never really liked randomidget slot even tho some people thought he was townie for reasons I didn't get

Ari's claim was like really bad

>Ari claimed rb'ed 2 nights ago, but it's hard to understand why scum would rb him that night
>Ari claims he would never not rb as scum, but I haven't meta'd him to evaluate this claim
>Ari seems like a nice guy, maybe he'd be happier leaving this mess of a game?

I think claiming he was the subject of a rb is the main point in his favor but I also kinda don't believe it?

maybe VOTE: Ari -Shiro

gonna taste this one out


can also do porkens slot

-rh

VOTE: mastina

Kurio and I are now confirmed town

No more discussion let’s go into night

kurio is confirmed town now because of the loyal modifier

we have to lynch mastina now

and mastina as town said im conf time so Im conf town

thats it

Martina said I’m town so

hmm is this ever s/s

ginngie sure is an interesting short iso considering her total fixation on mastina

I think I'm back here again

VOTE: Ari -shiro

-rh

I mean the thought occurs

Nihilism is odd-night only maybe?

in which case, Ari's team forgot that random claimed roleblocked?

Like would RC actually let Ari think that Random FORGOT to send a night action a night he received a rb?

HOW. How does ARI GET CONFUSED ABOUT SO MUCH OF HIS ROLE?

gdi

VOTE: Ari -Shiro

-RH

dirty ego post

This was you? Interesting.

In the name of calming the ego, your slot tried talking me out of scumreading Wheme, hehe.

[Shoshin]

It was a pleasure solving a large theme again with you tho Sho :3

Always pleasant when we're both on the same team

I did offer you the final hammer

Hehe, I just read back to see that! I wasn't around for the hammer. And yes, always a pleasure! In the future, I think I'll just read you based on whether we're winning/losing the game.

[Shoshin]

Vecna, Jingle, Lady Angel, jjh, nice meeting you all this game. Definitely appreciated all the work you did in sorting the crazy night actions Jingle

I second this. Fun to play with you all. And Jingle, the work you did with the night actions was amazing and I hope you're in all my future games, as someone who didn't read half the game (and I know I'm not the only one) I cannot stress how helpful that was. You really kept this game from falling apart imo.

[Shoshin]

Who was the other hydra player?

[Shoshin]

Yeah if a town openly starts asking for their pinball machine to be repaired,

my enthusiasm for solving the game grew after more scum were lynched....I think the same could be said for right head lol. Once I got more organized and more enthusiastic about keeping up with the game, it was easier to coordinate with Krazy to game solve no matter how much insanity was being posted (JJH I'm LOOKING AT YOU , as well as creat + shos LOL see below). Good times.

Huge thanks to invis for repairing us before he left.
Not sure why scum refused to kill us when we explicitly posted at least 1 major clue that we were a powerful role.
Not sure what Creat / Shos were doing at eod 6 not voting aris.
Jingle surprised me a lot - very pleasant player who was highly meticulous.

I wasn't posting "insanity." All of my townreads were correct, and by the start of D5 my reads were basically enough to win the game (called Nico/Wheme as scum on D5 with Ari in my poe, and then on D6 I expressly said multiple times that we shouldn't vote Jingle when people were pushing his lynch and I had Ari in my top two suspects who I said I would lynch). But sure, lots of "insanity"...

[Shoshin]

i thought porkens' whole interactive story and his colored readslist were pretty towny

Pork was towny for sure. I think we had the advantage of seeing his recent scum game because nobody else was really seeing it lol

[Shoshin]

I agree that scum had strong powers. I think Mastina's role could have easily been used to push a strategic mislynch without her slot getting lynched afterwards, if she had towned the slot enough. Varsoon's role was quite powerful. Strongman countered the protective roles. Town barely had any investigative powers. This seems fairly balanced to me. Town just rolled over the scum, which happens sometimes.

[Shoshin]

Plus a potential triple voter? That's super powerful imo.

[Shoshin]

I was town...