Mini 2032: TAZ Mafia: Murder on the Rockport Limited [over]

[Varsoon]

I was in the last game.
I don't remember how it went, really. I think town won, though?
Gacha was not so important, but people acted like it was. Dunno this time though, so I wouldn't make assumptions.

[Varsoon]

Those good good boys got into Trolls 2.
Speaking of Trolls
Hey, Porkens, are you town?

[Varsoon]

Those good good boys got into Trolls 2.
Speaking of Trolls
Hey, Porkens, are you town?

as if you don't know

I really don't!
You throwing shade instead of being upfront, well, I dunno how to take that.
Humho.

[Varsoon]

Gachapon vote: xRECKONERx

Now that that's out of the way.
VOTE: Kokichi Oma
I don't like you asking for gacha votes.

[Varsoon]

i would assume that there's a doctor to protect the fantasy gazpacho winner or w/e and that makes me want it so i don't get shot

Please don't spec like this.
You know better.

[Varsoon]

Hated's a trash modifier that indicates design-flaw and should probably be lynched regardless, as I'm reading hated as more likely scum than town in this setup.
But also I don't like Kokichi's main focus being on getting Gacha and mentions of himself as town/townread.
255, 232, 43, 30
Firstpost far too much tips at the role PM being red (thinking he was scum) that it strikes me as scum trying to manufacture a 'townslip' based on how peculiar they thought the sample role/their fakeclaim was in looks. Need to go back to the previous game, though, and see if the different color formatting/fakeclaims is in the mod meta, though, otherwise regardless it just bothers me.

[Varsoon]

And I didn't ask, I demanded. To someone who says they think I'm town. If they think I'm town, they shouldn't mind voting me for gacha votes. Why are you trying to mispaint the picture here?

Cool, glad you could find a means of publicly testing a pocket, unless you're buddies, then it's distancing maybe
Regardless it just doesn't sit well with me.

[Varsoon]

Hey Varsoon, are you going to vote Shoshin for saying he should get Gacha votes?

'cus Shoshin doesn't strike me as scum, just gullible.

I think Gacha should be me, but if not me, then it should be Radiant. It should not be Kokichi, and it definitely shouldn't be Reck who isn't even reading the game.

Reck's reading--if you think he's not, you've been duped.

[Varsoon]

A+ retort, my guy.

[Varsoon]

Really burning down my case here

[Varsoon]

[Varsoon]

Hated's a trash modifier that indicates design-flaw and should probably be lynched regardless, as I'm reading hated as more likely scum than town in this setup.

So you're saying that because the mod put hated in the game, that it should automatically be lynched? What sense does that make at all. And how are you reading it more likely scum than town? Unless you have more info than we have? Because we don't have much info about the setup right now.

You've got an entire site meta of how the modifier has been used, an entire mod meta of how the modifier has been used, and the public bits of the setup itself.
Your hated and your ambling for the gacha--that's not good news.

[Varsoon]

Reck's my choice. I don't care if it's a good choice. The fact that my choice doesn't seem like a good choice to you makes me that much more sure that I want to go with my choice.

[Varsoon]

'cus I saw my role PM was red-fonted and thought it was a scum PM at first, myself.
You insisting that's the mod color and all that feels like a weird justification.

[Varsoon]

If your approach to the game is RC wants something therefore it's bad then I'm prolly just gonna sheep Shoshin here.

It's not that you want something and I'm going to bust your chops at every turn, it's this specific gacha vote for reckoner, especially given the current gacha situation.

[Varsoon]

Spoiler: A pretty clear case of Kokichi trying to look town by discussing best practices for a public mechanic while also pushing himself for the public mechanic powerup because he's the only one he knows is town amirite

What does everyone think about my gacha idea of tying?

@mod does gacha winner get announced in thread in the event of a tie

Well that ruins the tie thought I had.

vote: kokichi for gacha

I only trust myself so far.

Great, vote me to receive gacha

And I didn't ask, I demanded. To someone who says they think I'm town. If they think I'm town, they shouldn't mind voting me for gacha votes. Why are you trying to mispaint the picture here?

[Varsoon]

@Skitter: I have a hard townread on Reck. Furthermore, I didn't like the way the gacha votes were going and wanted to throw a wrench in that. Even furthermore, I knew the positions re: Reckoner and Gatcha and knew if I came in with a starkly different opinion that it would create discussion and game momentum. It's the best way for me to get involved in the game, too, because before these last few posts I haven't really been engaged.

I read the whole game when it happened but have not since returned to it.

I'm not saying you are pocketed, just that it stinks of testing a pocket--like seeing how far you'd townread a claimed townread.

Shoshin's rhetoric (both in explaining their own play and convincing others) has been very straightforward--I 100% believe that Shoshin saw Reck write that he wasn't reading and took that to be literally true. Shoshin did not push Reck for further game engagement or read the 'not reading' thing as a strat to not engage with a few pages of content; Shoshin seems to, again, have just taken it literally.

[Varsoon]

why do you have a hard townread on reck for anything they've done in this game.

Doublevoter claim in face of hated claim, disengaged play
Also re: the gacha situation when I came in just a bit earlier.

[Varsoon]

I have a hard townread on Reck. Furthermore, I didn't like the way the gacha votes were going and wanted to throw a wrench in that. Even furthermore, I knew the positions re: Reckoner and Gatcha and knew if I came in with a starkly different opinion that it would create discussion and game momentum.

This is kind of a contradiciton? Because you're saying that you townread him. So why should it matter why you put the gacha vote. But, then you state later you just voted him for it to create a discussion. But, you still aren't even explaining why you townread reck

The fuck I gotta explain a townread for?
And it's hardly a contradiction to townread someone and gacha vote someone and say that I did it all to also create discussion.
I don't ever have to claim any of my reads and I could've held my gacha vote, too.
C'mon, step it up senpai. You're too busy tryin'a poke holes in me that you're just looking desperate.

[Varsoon]

VArsoon's posting is so bad. Him trying to case me is hilarious cause it's so bad. I can't tell if it's just cause it's early game and he's just grasping at whatever he can or if it's because he's scum. What do you think RC?

Also don't like this jockeying up to RC.
It's obvious RC is present and will offer thoughts if they are worth posting, you don't need that last line.

[Varsoon]

The difference is that you're acting like it's some scum thing not to explain why you townread someone any time you come out and say you believe someone is town
Radiant looked like they actually wanted to know my position re:Reck, you just look like you're trying to paint me in a negative light
There's a hard line between:
"why do you have a hard townread on reck"
and
"you still aren't even explaining why you townread reck"

P-EDIT:
Why do you care about building interactions?
RC has some of the most content in the game so far, why do you want to build an interaction there, what does it get you?

[Varsoon]

Varsoon's scum because he thinks that Kokichi's faking a townslip when the natural interpretation of Kokichi's beahvior is that he's just commenting on the color, which isn't indicative either way. Varsoon's logic comes from the scum perspective of someone who himself wanted to fake a townslip by commenting on the red color, then saw that someone else already commented on the red color, and so interpreted that behavior as scummy because it was something he himself wanted to do as scum. No townie would ever interpret Kokichi's behavior as a "scummy fake townslip," it just doesn't make any sense unless Varsoon himself is scum who had that instinct himself.

The Reck townread is crap, too.

So if you've figured all this out, why didn't I mention any of that in my first several posts?
It's a minor part of my case, regardless.
Also, I don't care what you think of my reads, keep incendiary opinions to yourself.
Don't take being gullible so personally, either--as town, I know you're extra gullible how much you're playing into this 'varsoon is scum' rubbish

[Varsoon]

@Skitter: Oh! You meant this game! I thought you meant the previous game with the Adventure Zone flavor. Yes--I've also been reading this entire game as it's been posted.

I guess that I've played the 'lets discuss this mechanic's best use' card a lot as scum (see: Color Mafia games) and I've seen scum do it a lot early-game in my own public-mechanic heavy games, so it's a strategy I tend to associate with scum.

Shoshin is for sure sincere, but I feel like they're not looking beyond what people are saying at face-value.

Sorry if my tone is weird--I'm probably gonna be really weird this game in general since I'm working full time which is usually not something I've done while playing mafia. So we'll see how it goes.

[Varsoon]

It's honest play coming from the slot, and honesty is something I tend to townread more often than not.

[Varsoon]

@skitter: 'cus you're engaging me more--it's easier to discuss stuff with you 'cus you're not at my throat regardless of your read on me.

Anyway, I'm gonna watch Die Hard and go to sleep.
I gotta wake up really early.

[Varsoon]

Die Hard is better than I remember it being when I watched it as a kid.
I would really appreciate it if people would stop calling me and my play bad and actually engage with me.
It's really, really disheartening to read.

[Varsoon]

I'm still going to Gatcha vote for Reck's slot regardless of IRL circumstances, RC.
I think it's fucked up of you to act like a slot is essentially out of game just because the player has limited access--it undermines the game a ton as well as the moderation.
Really, I'm fucking sick of you and Kokichi ganging up on me with insults. It's incredibly depressing to make a return to the site and on my first real day of engagement to be hit with a gaggle of people saying that I'm game throwing, untoppably awful, bad, etc.
I'm legitimately losing sleep over it, so I would appreciate it if you would stop.
On a non-personal level, I really think that it doesn't fit a narrative where you're scumreading me to insult me this much.
So I'm also really dubious of both of you for that.

[Varsoon]

My hope is that people will actually see the exchange we had as fruitful for reading our slots.
I would appreciate it if you don't try to act like our exchange was personal (even though I have taken lots of these insults to heart) and that the back and forth since my votes is all worthwhile game content rather than personal tiff to be avoided.
I see it happen in games a lot and I don't want it to happen here.

[Varsoon]

Does anyone else have meta experience with Kokichi?
How does Kokichi handle taking early game pressure?
It's hard to see the reaction as coming from town.

[Varsoon]

You do realize that repeatedly calling someone awful is not a substitute for worthwhile engagement with their play, right?

@Kokichi: I doubt anything that I write will make sense to you if you're town and if you're scum, anything you disagree with will be nonsensical anyway, but here goes;
I'm not sure what to make of Porkens because I feel town Porkens would be straightforward with me about his alignment. This is a little thing. I also don't like how little of a game presence Porkens has had given my recent meta experience with the player. It's suspect, but suspect =/= scum.
Sir Cakes coming with a townread out of hand on me when I was taking a lot of heat is an important move for a few reasons and will be the deciding factor when it comes time to look at associative tells, but I'm unsure of the slot itself. I townlean it.
Shoshin is a pretty confident townread of mine, but I haven't played with honest scum in a long time so I'm not gonna call it lock town.
RC really frustrates me so it's difficult for me to make an accurate read based on content, but it also bothers me that I don't have an accurate read despite RC's depth of content in this game--RC's playing dishonestly, imo.
Skitter's agreeable but I don't wanna be quick to townread that, either. Based on play, the most by-the-books-town, but I don't know if their scumgame is just that polished or what.

But yeah that's basically everyone I have a read worth mentioning on. I haven't really engaged with anyone else and there's a lot of players who haven't been around today for me to really sink in to.

P-EDIT:
You don't have to act like a cool guy who doesn't sweat when someone calls you out early game.
I really don't like how much you keep aligning yourself with other people like this, constantly posturing with "other people agreed with everything I've been saying" and "more people have said they think I might be town".
It feels really disingenuous.

[Varsoon]

Like especially if you're supposedly not feeling pressure--why scrape to say others stand with you?
It doesn't make sense as town play to me.

P-EDIT:
@RC: I asked nicely, I would really appreciate if you don't push me, figuratively. It's hardly 'clean lynching' for you to have a back and forth you did in 384.
I'm doing a lot right now not to respond in a way that is unbecoming, please understand.
I'm not 'trying to portray' myself as anything. I am literally grinding my teeth and backspacing several sentences of hateful, violent responses.
I haven't called either of you 'horrible assholes'. I've just said that the constant ragging on me/my play has gotten to be disheartening and I would appreciate actual engagement from your slots.
You've done far, far less to engage than Kokichi, who has at least driven the game into game-related territory.

VOTE: Radiant Cowbells

If anything, the insistence you have to framing our exchange like this shows you want to control the narrative.
I'm not going to let that happen.

[Varsoon]

@Skitter: Nah, you're cool, no worries.
I guess the question you gotta ask yourself is--would scum give themselves obvious backtracks or present more confident reads, especially when they know they could do so and just be seen as inane for it?
Real talk, those are my reads and I'm working to build more confidence one way or another here.

[Varsoon]

Spoiler: Not Game Related

I've got an 8 hour shift that starts in 5 hours.
My job isn't particularly taxing--it's a desk job, which does make it a little easy to nod off at sometimes, but I can do coffee or whatever.
I'm wide awake right now, though.
Should I try to get 3 hours of sleep in and just make due or should I forego sleep altogether?

[Varsoon]

So regarding Porkens its worth noting that Varsoon's first person he chose to interact with was Porkens and their communication could pretty easily be cheeky svs

Guess everyone who votes you must be scum, amirite?
It's not like I was playing a very specific meta angle with Porkens or that I've been forthright with exactly how I felt about his response
Moreover, in what world do you see scum-Varsoon's first posts in a game as interacting that directly with a scumbuddy?
What really bothers me is that you seem to be doing one of
1. Undermining me because you're scum and you know you need to off me
2. You legitimately have this little respect for my play but instead of pushing a case on me you're more pre-occupied with trash talk

Maybe both?

[Varsoon]

I just don't see EITHER coming from town RC.

[Varsoon]

He calls me town and tries to pocket me, when it doesn't work he comes up with this 'oh I can't townread RC when he's doing x' rationale

Where do I do any of this?
Also now that you've called reck scum you're literally OMGUS'ing your whole wagon.
I know the way you play and you're very, very dishonest this game, and it bothers the fuck out of me.
Also--is it really 'opportunistic' to explain a scum read that's clearly developed over the course of several clear interactions and then vote there, aligning my vote with one of my most confident townreads?
It sounds like you're just trying to discredit your wagon and you're literally making up fiction to do so.

@Irrelephant:

What would you like me to answer?
It's weird that you're voting me and simultaneously all "Oh, this is where I would see scum jumping on this wagon."

Also, damn, apologies for being the first person to drop an ACTUAL CASE on a player this game, it blows my mind that so many people think it's bad but don't spend any fucking time detailing

why

.

[Varsoon]

I'm also very happy that Reckoner came in to reaffirm his vote, it does a lot to minimize RC's whole "Reck's in a hurricane he isn't a part of the game lol disregard that I am the leading wagon" discrediting."

[Varsoon]

@Irrelephant:

Initially, I felt they were just taking Reck at face value--I read Reck's "I am not reading the game" post as a means of lying low and avoiding having to engage with the last 4 pages he had claimed not to read.
After that, though, when the wagon started rolling on me, Shoshin was pretty forthright with why they were scumreading me and a lot of it seemed influenced by the huge response I got from Kokichi and others.
It's not so much of a 'gullible' as in 'will believe anything, is being duped', but more like 'this player is sincere and is assuming sincerity from others', if that makes sense?

There's setup-spec reasons that are somewhat weak, role-related reasons that are a bit stronger, but the biggest things are that Reck has a lot of confidence in his vote, has reaffirmed that confidence, and has played a pretty safe/disengaged game despite calling some people out on scummy play. It comes together to make me feel that he's a town player that's taking calculated risks.

Shoshin read Reck's post about not reading, believed it, and didn't attack it/wasn't super critical of it--that play is very reflective of Shoshin's game approach and, likely, their alignment.

My tone seems to have been giving skitter issues with read clarity on my slot, and I know that my infrequent schedule is likely to add to that. I was apologizing mostly for not being able to be here consistently, though, since I feel like consistent play is one of the best means of producing content that'll get you read clearly.

It's weird that you aren't more critical of people that jumped on at that point and are instead complicit in wagoning me. If you really think that's where scum would be jumping on, who do you see as scum jumping on at that point and why? I understand the focus on me--you don't have a townread on me and want to push me for that, but it feels a little at odds with the statement about seeing me as a player scum would jump on re:my case on Kokichi. It's like "Oh this is where scum would jump on Varsoon. Time to vote Varsoon." I'm not saying you're scum for doing it, but that it is a weird thing to say.

I don't know that it says I'm wrong on Kokichi as much as it indicates that people want to discredit my voice in this game. It seems like something that's easy to parrot a bunch and build a wagon out of because then town players who didn't like the casing could also vote there because apparently bad/awful play/reasoning = scum reasoning and the more people lean on it being 'bad' without critiquing

why

the more people are likely to see it as bad for any given reason. I initially thought Kokichi was scum for perpetuating it, but Kokichi actually did a lot of trying to engage with my points and explain why they didn't make sense to him, which is why I put my vote on RadiantCowbells, who wasn't doing any of that engagement but was still drumming up the 'worst play of all time' 'gamethrower varsoon' situation.

@RadiantCowbells:

I'll take the third option. I keep my vote on you because you're my highest confidence scum read. I don't negotiate with terrorists.

@SirCakez:

In my experience, Porkens is far more madcap and frustrating.

@Skitter:

See my comment at SirCakez about Porkens play and my history there. I've faked guilties against him because I wanted his slot lynched so much due to frustration/perceived trolling. I was trying to see how Porkens would respond to a straightforward question about alignment--I felt a 'trolling' sort of answer or a straightforward response would be more likely to come from town-Porkens. Mostly, I was hoping to find a point of engagement with a player I had a stark memory of recently playing with, not just to inform my own reads, but also to start to get engaged with the game.

[Varsoon]

Idrc what you think is an accurate representation.

This is not a town response to multiple players calling out a false narrative.

[Varsoon]

RC replacing out over this is lame af, I've been in far worse situations then this and stayed in.

It's a scummy move, imo.

[Varsoon]

@Skitter: In my experience, Porkens reads but doesn't engage a lot and tends to kinda do his own thing. Explosive when pushed though.
If you want content out of Porkens, push a serious case on him. That said, it can be like opening a can of worms sometimes, so be prepared.
It seems sort of like you're going for that already so I'd just be more forward with it if you want more from the slot.

[Varsoon]

i was continuing a bit anyway so this doesnt matter to me to begin with

VOTE: nsg

Can you give some more explanation on this push/read of nsg?

[Varsoon]

Oh man guess I should never voice a townread on Reck ever again in any game because it's

obviously

pocketing.
You really shouldn't take the gullible thing so seriously/personally, Shoshin.
I am surprised by how stubborn you are, though.
Would you like to actually interact with me at some point, though?

[Varsoon]

I'm super wary of the RC flip on reads: On one hand, it strikes me as someone who did have to take a step back, breathe, assess the content, and come to a more informed position. On the other, though, that's NAI because it'd have to happen for scum-RC to ensure some deal of survivability just as much as it'd need to come from town RC for the same reasons. I DO like the content there more than before, but I'm still sussing through it.

Varsoon, why would you be surprised at how "stubborn" I am when I literally said I was going to "death tunnel" anyone who pushed Creature's lynch? Like, stubbornness shouldn't be surprising at all after that.

...so why aren't you death-tunneling Nosferatu?

[Varsoon]

Your problem here is thinking that you would threaten me at all as scum.

Good thing I don't need to worry about that at all, given that I'm town and pushing you.

[Varsoon]

Really really not enjoying the whole "Oh I couuuuld lynch someone or someone else but uh I'll leave those decisions up to oooother players" kinda play that a lot of people are exhibiting. It's baiting and trash.

Kokichi, stop being petty over the fact I scumread you early and made a case--regardless of the quality of it, you need to move on. If you're town, you being hung up on it is keeping you from engaging elsewhere and forming worthwhile reads and moving the game forward.

Shoshin, stop pushing the line that I'm scumreading Kokichi for play I was making--that's a gross misrepresentation of both my reasons for having an early scumread there, my reasons for loudly pushing it, and the reality of my situation not even being the same as Kokichi's. You getting hung up on a lie of a detail is clouding your judgment and keeping you from moving on to form much better reads than an incorrect scumread on me.

Unless either of you guys are scum, I really need you both to step it up.

[Varsoon]

Remember what I just said about older players coming into newer games and being trash?
Kokichi and Shoshin are trying to solve the game with me while you flounder and get pissy at people for scumreading you for justifiable reasons.
You are the one who needs to play better, not them.

Nice projecting, homedog.

[Varsoon]

How close are ya'll to 'solving' the game?
Still think that obvious town people are scum?
Last handful of pages have been a ton of misgivings because you specifically employed rhetoric that involved someone's IRL situation, my guy. I don't care how you feel to spin that biz, but all you've been doing is putting up a stink.

@Porkens:

Why the earlier hop-off and now return to RC?

[Varsoon]

Kokichi's over hear publicly theorycrafting that the dude who enters D1 loud and making enemies might be scum with a powerful role.
That's cool, I majored in fiction, I get it, but can you give me a reads list, Kokichi?
Or, like, something? Anything?

[Varsoon]

Shoshin, stop pushing the line that I'm scumreading Kokichi for play I was making--that's a gross misrepresentation of both my reasons for having an early scumread there, my reasons for loudly pushing it, and the reality of my situation not even being the same as Kokichi's. You getting hung up on a lie of a detail is clouding your judgment and keeping you from moving on to form much better reads than an incorrect scumread on me.

I thought I was "honest town" but now I'm a liar? And you're still not scumeading me?

RC, please lynch this.

Oh no, I do believe that you honestly believe in something that isn't true.
That's the problem.
And here you are
Choosing to be hung up on this
Instead of doing anything else.

[Varsoon]

Kokichi's over hear publicly theorycrafting that the dude who enters D1 loud and making enemies might be scum with a powerful role.
That's cool, I majored in fiction, I get it, but can you give me a reads list, Kokichi?
Or, like, something? Anything?

This post is so fake.

Cool readslist.
Quality 10/10 engagement.

[Varsoon]

Feels like good scum would just glide through this D1 while letting the rather thoughtless wagoning of me be the focal point with lots of noise and little content.

@Gamma:

If RC's slot isn't worth pushing despite RC's scummy (literally and figuratively) play, then who is the better lynch/push for today/right now and why?

[Varsoon]

Kokichi's over hear publicly theorycrafting that the dude who enters D1 loud and making enemies might be scum with a powerful role.
That's cool, I majored in fiction, I get it, but can you give me a reads list, Kokichi?
Or, like, something? Anything?

This post is so fake.

Cool readslist.
Quality 10/10 engagement.

I already engaged with you enough and have determined you are scum. I gave you multiple chances to explain your reads and they all feel fabricated.

So when I explain them and it's not somehow good enough for you, what am I to do? Lie? Make up bullshit? Fuck off.
I want YOUR reads.

[Varsoon]

I'd really like if we could talk about other things, but, obviously, I'm a bit biased when it comes to that.

That said, Cakez, who do you think is a good lynch? What are your general thoughts on the game?
I haven't really heard much from you that's stuck with me.

[Varsoon]

Serious, though, what's up with this wack game momentum?
We've been playing a whole week and the largest thing to happen so far was my push and the interactions that came out of that.
Why isn't anyone else making waves?
I know scum are very likely to try to sit back and play their cards close to their chest due to the mechanical systems at play and because I'm town but damn

[Varsoon]

If you target scum then you're unkillable and unlynchable.

[Varsoon]

But if the person you target is scum, then scum can never mislynch you because a lynch on you will just lynch your target.
If people start to push out a lynch on your target, you can just claim the switcheroo and if people WANT to actually lynch your target, they can just lynch you instead

[Varsoon]

But if you DON'T claim the switcheroo and you get run up to lynch and you targeted scum, it's a free lynch on scum and buys you a day.

[Varsoon]

I also have a theory it might have cute interactions with self-targeting effects, but that's kinda NAI.

[Varsoon]

I'd really like if we could talk about other things, but, obviously, I'm a bit biased when it comes to that.

That said, Cakez, who do you think is a good lynch? What are your general thoughts on the game?
I haven't really heard much from you that's stuck with me.

I have a big pool of null and then a few townreads (RC slot, you, Shoshin, Irrel) and a few scumreads (Gammagooery and Porkens). P much everyone else null. I guess Reck is a little scummy but it could also just be anger at RC that I'm reading wrong.

But who do you think is a

good lynch

?
Not just in terms of likeliness to flip scum, but also in terms of information it'd provide.

Also I'm curious about your general thoughts on the

game

, not just the playerlist.
What do you make of the initial setup talk and jockeying for Gacha?
What do you think of the exchanges between me, RC, Kokichi, Reck, etc.? I can kinda parse what reads you've come to but not entirely how you've come to them.
What do you think is keeping people from being more proactive/engaged?

To be real, I seriously expected a lot more content from you and NSG when I first looked at this playerlist.

[Varsoon]

I have no clue what your reads are and maybe that's my fault but I feel like it's yours?
I just ISO'd you to see if that statement was fair and my analysis is "mostly, yeah" though I did forget your very clearly stated scumread of RC
But like, who's town? You've referenced "obvious town" that others "still think are scum". Who's that?

Reck's town and people are still leaning him scum even in the last 5 pages.
I've waffled a lot on Porkens, though he seems like a low-hanging scumread that's easy to get away with which is why I feel he's in that position in a lot of people's reads.
Shoshin's also town but I don't really see many people scumreading that slot.

There's also clearly me, and people are pretty outspoken about how I must be scum, but I've got a bit of bias when it comes to how obvious my alignment is.

[Varsoon]

I'm receiving townreads too easily.

If you wanna be fair, I don't have a read on you at all because you're such a non-presence in this game that I think I'll just vig you when I get the chance.
Seriously, though, you better start getting to be like EA Sports--in the game.
Who's the scum townreading you?

Not crazy about GammaEmerald--they've done nothing with their entrance so far and haven't made me any less suspicious of their slot.

Skitter's posts in the last few pages strike me as way more likely to come from town and are driving the game in a healthy direction, imo.

I think Porkens is just bottom of the barrel, regardless, and should really be held more accountable.

[Varsoon]

So...
Why'd ya make the statement?
Like you're reading and going
"Oh man these people townreading me for nothing, probably scum in there. Let me not remember any of their names or look into it any more at all or pressure them."

I just don't get it.

[Varsoon]

Go back right now.
Find the post.

[Varsoon]

Hoping this is true. I am townreading creature

So follow this up.

[Varsoon]

First I need inspiration.

I've threatened you with a vig. Play the game you signed up for.

[Varsoon]

Misunderstanding? No. Varsoon is scum who got caught early and now is trying to make up for it with lots of meanignless activity that hasn't actually got us any closer to finding scum and none of which actually contains anything towny. His ISO is empty of meaningful scumhunting.

So what should a townie you've decided is scum do?
Roll over and go, "Fuck this game"?
I'm not RC.

[Varsoon]

I've come to much more informed reads based on the interactions I've had.
I've pressured several players for content and both you and Kokichi continue to let me down.
Why is that?

[Varsoon]

I'm actually getting really sick of you misrepresenting every single play I make. You're confbiased and nothing I ever do will be good enough, even if I single-handedly lynch the whole scum team and win this game for us.

[Varsoon]

If I lead a lynch on scum?
Oh, Varsoon must be bussing, he's obviously scum

[Varsoon]

If I push the game to be more involved?
Oh Varsoon is doing nothing, useless busywork posts that aren't towny at all

[Varsoon]

If I push my scum-suspects while cultivating my reads and answer literally every post directed at me while being critical of people who are skimming by?

Empty ISO! Empty ISO!

DESPITE THE FACT THAT RADIANT COWBELLS HAS MORE THAN DOUBLE MY POSTCOUNT AND NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT
BUT YEAH
SCUMREAD ME AND DO NOTHING ELSE
FUCKING AMAZING

[Varsoon]

In fact, Shoshin, you've got nearly double the posts I do.

Explain to me what you've done this game.
Give me your reads that 'get us closer to finding scum'.

[Varsoon]

Well, take a look at Varsoon.

I'm town, buckaroo.
Try again.

I was a part of the town victory in Yume's Cutsie U-Pick. Radiant Cowbells replaced out of that game, too, and we mislynched the slot D2: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=72865
I was scum in Civ 5. I played like shit and we lost: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75314


I also played in some very oddball games like Echo Bay Grits CEO (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76118) and Worst Game Ever Run (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=75352).

[Varsoon]

Actually, more accurately, RC was force-replaced.
So that's two for two that I'm town and RC gets forced out of a game I'm in.
Hm. I still don't think RC's slot is town in this game, though.

[Varsoon]

I actually was pretty responsible for that town win and for that scum loss, so you can see directly how my play (both mechanically and rhetorically, because I was offed super early in the scum game) had direct impacts on the game.

[Varsoon]

Also worth noting:
I played WAY MORE close to my chest in that Yume Cutsie game because I knew my role was very potentially busted and I needed to survive in order to confirm a strong towncore in order to maximize our chances of success.
It's safe to say that I don't have a role in this game that can confirm multiple players as town, so I've been a lot more straightforward.

[Varsoon]

@Varsoon - what's your strongest scumread aside from RC atm?

Kokichi, then Irrelephant, who's on par out of whoever the scum is between Nos, NSG, and Cakez. If I had to take a blind shot in that last pool, I'd shoot NSG.

[Varsoon]

More game links would be helpful. I also don't want your commentary, please don't provide.

If you just want to see games I've been in, you can go to my profile and browse all my topics. I don't post at all on the social side of the site.

Anyway.
Behind the Mask: Town, Town Win.
Gunner Mafia: Town, Town Win.
Rocky Horror Picture Show: Town, Game Abandoned.
Just Play the Hits: Town, Scum Win.
House in the Woods: Town, Won with Non-Town.
Tarot U-Pick: Scum, Town Win.
Paint Mania: Scum, Other Scum Win.
Maplewood Village: Town, Town Win.

Everything after those is more than a year old.
Damn, haven't won as scum in over a year.
I do suck at this game.

[Varsoon]

Replacing out and being forced to replace out should both be read entirely as NAI regardless of player--to do anything else compromises the integrity of the game more than a replace-out does.
RC's slot should be read with RC's content considered. A replace-out should not buy a slot a free ticket to ride. The alignment of the slot did not change with the replacement.

varsoon, this might be a weird question, but how well do you remember games you played six months ago? like are you the sort of player who remembers details of things they pushed in games gone by?

I remember most of my games pretty well, though more the highlights than even if it was a win or a loss. My memory is fickle like that.
Like, I could give you direct quotes from some of my favorite moments modding and playing in games over three years ago, but I legitimately could not tell you even which games were wins and losses and which roles I had in the games I just linked without having to check first.
Why, what's up?

[Varsoon]

Now that you bring it up, I do remember that push.
I haven't really heard a good rationale for a townread on Kokichi--it's come off as a lot of people who are scumreading me just yes-manning Kokichi because they never liked me from the get-go.
I've waffled a bit in my confidence on the Kokichi scumread but Kokichi's persistence in doing nothing else has reaffirmed me leaning him harder into the scum camp.

[Varsoon]

No one stays angry that long.
Dude's capable of doing more.

[Varsoon]

I'm actually getting really sick of you misrepresenting every single play I make. You're confbiased and nothing I ever do will be good enough, even if I single-handedly lynch the whole scum team and win this game for us.

Ehh this is ott
Like sure this is a mood
But if Shoshin's over-frustrating you, work on doing the "single-handedly lynching the whole scum team" rather than expressing your frustration over and over

If I lead a lynch on scum?
Oh, Varsoon must be bussing, he's obviously scum

No one has said this, no one has flipped. ??

I have been working, if you haven't been paying attention. I've served up RC on a plate. If you think my responses to Shoshin are purely frustration and not critique of a slot that I am losing a townread on, reconsider.

Fairly certain that folks have already drawn tons of pre-flip associations from me, like, "Oh his push there might mean they are both scum" kinda shit. It's D1. People speculating on stuff being pocketing or bussing or distancing are either faking content generation (because they have NOTHING but reads to go on) or they're lying scum. Either way, it's bad play and people should be more critical of it.

[Varsoon]

It bothers me because it's not a feature of the game.
Replace outs:
1. Compromise the scope of a game because the intent of games is to have the same players engage with each other from start to finish. It'd be like holding a 500m race but one racer gets to run a relay with other people instead of having to do the whole 500m. Regardles of any possible advantage or disadvantage that might bring to the racer running the relay, it compromises the integrity of the entire event.
2. Are NOT intentional design aspects included by the moderator--replacing out is not an ability on your rolecard or a public mechanic to exploit. It's a courtesy of moderation in order to keep a game running despite out of game circumstances. However, when it becomes abused as an in-game tool to either flush negative reads off a slot, force people to engage with a different content creator than the original, or anything else, it is functioning in a way that is not an inherit part of the game design.

I'm here to play Mafia and to play this specific game of mafia, first and foremost. As a moderator who has dealt with replace-outs being a major factor in weakening/ruining two of his favorite games run on-site, I am more than a bit against them. Yes, in an ideal world, no one would ever have to replace out--but it is entirely our decision to treat replace-outs in the way we do and read the slot any differently for them.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Creature

Do Something.

[Varsoon]

Okay, tomorrow I do stuff

Been almost 24 hours now.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Irrelephant
Let's make it one then, huh?
Come at me booooy

[Varsoon]

Gammagooey wagon is garbar

[Varsoon]

To focus on Irrel.
Creature did create some content--I don't agree with or like it, but my vote served its purpose there. I don't I am capable of actually leading a creature wagon, not with the deadline as it is now.

[Varsoon]

Irrelephant's a bad vote. Very bad.

Would flip Varsoon as info lynch at this point too

Wtf No, never do an info lynch, this is terrible. Man, Irrel, you're making me doubt you're town, ugh.

Ahuh.

[Varsoon]

How is Emerald solidifying a townread at all with that sparse posting and line towning?

I'm not crazy about the wagon makeup on GammaGoo. Obviously, given I'm voting Irrel.

[Varsoon]

Man, you guys SUCK at this game.

[Varsoon]

Irrel's willingness to just push ANYONE through while saying scummy shit like him loving last minute wagons warrants rope, tons of it.
Gammagoo coming at me with "I Won't mention the game but varsoon was scum in a game once!" is reaching so far it puts Jordan's dunk at the end of Space Jam to shame.

[Varsoon]

I'd take either of those right now. I think Irrel's more likely to flip scum but the combined force of Gamma's worst posts and RC's worst posts make that slot a dumpster fire for me.

[Varsoon]

Well shit then they're both awful.
What has Emerald even done?

[Varsoon]

And I realize now I got my gammas mixed up
Emerald is actually fine.

[Varsoon]

I'd take either of those right now. I think Irrel's more likely to flip scum but the combined force of Gamma's worst posts and RC's worst posts make that slot a dumpster fire for me.

Irrel's willingness to just push ANYONE through while saying scummy shit like him loving last minute wagons warrants rope, tons of it.
Gammagoo coming at me with "I Won't mention the game but varsoon was scum in a game once!" is reaching so far it puts Jordan's dunk at the end of Space Jam to shame.

I'm talking about Emerald in both these posts, should be obvious, sorry, I am literally stupid.

[Varsoon]

And I realize now I got my gammas mixed up
Emerald is actually fine.

Gooey* is actually fine
HolEEE shit

[Varsoon]

Sucking off globally read town who hasn't done anything in the game while lampshading it.

[Varsoon]

Haha not trying to pocket you just think you're great lol

[Varsoon]

^ that kinda shit.

[Varsoon]

Irrel's 886 is a massive town tell btw

Maybe explain how?



@Gooey: What I've mentioned before; Don't like how eager he is to go with anything that's popular. Lots of posting and words that don't inform much of anything.

[Varsoon]

I don't think you understand how a towntell works.
1050 can be wifom'd. It's not irrefutable proof. Scum can do anything.

[Varsoon]

tbh I feel like I could do anyone

Keep the creature in your pants.
Why are you eager for blood?

[Varsoon]

Could Irrel WIFOM 886 as scum? Yes. Is he likely to do so? No.

The fact you'd lean on logic like this to heavily inform a read means scum will dupe you time and time again. Stop that shit.

Furthermore, why the fuck you calling out 'WIFOM' when you're over here using 'shading' completely fucking wrong.
You just declare shit and never explain
How the fuck is 1067 'scummy logic' even?
That's what fucking shading is
You don't explain shit
you just say "LOOK AT THIS IT IS SCUMMY"
Like seriously holy shit
Please

[Varsoon]

this is xyzzy, your moderator, your best friend, and your Pokemon trainer. go, Reuniclus, kick everybody's ass!

...I also really like Reuniclus.
If this is some secret mod messenger header ability, hi.
If not, I have appreciated the mod messages.
And I remember.

[Varsoon]

When you just point at any given thing and go "I DON'T LIKE IT" or call it scummy, I have no means of
1. Really engaging with your post at all besides trying to get you to be more thorough
2. Read your slot because there's not transparent logic behind posts

Like do you understand how this is frustrating?
Please explain things when you write them.

[Varsoon]

Like when you say that one post is a towntell and the dude is town
That's a worthless post to me
All it tells me is "Shoshin sure does declare this"
And not why you'd write that or why it may even be a true thing
You're not engaging in a game of argument or presenting evidence, you're just making a thesis over and over and it doesn't do anything for the game, for making your slot easier to read, for anything.

[Varsoon]

As someone that you scumread, it makes it very very difficult to engage with you
I can't understand where at all you're coming from
I just get frustrated when you declare things and seemingly use common terminology in incorrect ways
And you get so defensive when I push you for more
And then you just keep making these straight declarations
Again further driving my frustration with your play

[Varsoon]

To mislynch a townie, scum must knowingly argue that towny behaviors"could" come from scum. Town, on the other hand, evaluate probability by weighing of it's more likely than not that a behavior is town or scum.

That's not true at all--scum don't even need to be on a wagon to make a mislynch happen. Town perceive other town as scum all the time--it's how town loses games. Scum can also just fake evaluation, it's pretty easy--and plenty of town don't do earnest evaluation either.

For example, I looked at 886 and evaluated probability - it's likely town.

Why

Varsoon, in contrast, looked at 886, looked at my explanation that it's town, and countered by saying it COULD be scum, even though the relevant inquiry for a townie isn't whether it could be scum, it's whether it's likely scum or likely town. Varsoon doesn't care about probability, and instead is reframing probability as possibility (i.e. reframing as WIFOM), and that's a very scummy way to think about the game.

This completely disregards the fact I ALREADY GAVE MY OPINIONS ON 866 AND HOW IT IS SCUMMY
The ACTUAL CONTEXT is that you responded to ME SAYING THAT by saying you saw it as A TOWN TELL
and when I asked you why you thought it was a TOWN TELL you said it was just 'more likely to come from town' WHICH IS NOT A TELL
I pointed out that the same argument could be made that BECAUSE people BELIEVE it's more likely to come from town, it'd be a behavior that SCUM would WANT TO display because it would MAKE THEM APPEAR more town
Like how is being CAUTIOUS of another player ATTEMPTING TO APPEAR TOWN IN A CALCULATED WAY a scummy way to approach the game?

[Varsoon]

To mislynch a townie, scum must knowingly argue that towny behaviors"could" come from scum. Town, on the other hand, evaluate probability by weighing of it's more likely than not that a behavior is town or scum.

That's not true at all--scum don't even need to be on a wagon to make a mislynch happen. Town perceive other town as scum all the time--it's how town loses games. Scum can also just fake evaluation, it's pretty easy--and plenty of town don't do earnest evaluation either.

For example, I looked at 886 and evaluated probability - it's likely town.

Why

Varsoon, in contrast, looked at 886, looked at my explanation that it's town, and countered by saying it COULD be scum, even though the relevant inquiry for a townie isn't whether it could be scum, it's whether it's likely scum or likely town. Varsoon doesn't care about probability, and instead is reframing probability as possibility (i.e. reframing as WIFOM), and that's a very scummy way to think about the game.

This completely disregards the fact I ALREADY GAVE MY OPINIONS ON 866 AND HOW IT IS SCUMMY
The ACTUAL CONTEXT is that you responded to ME SAYING THAT by saying you saw it as A TOWN TELL
and when I asked you why you thought it was a TOWN TELL you said it was just 'more likely to come from town' WHICH IS NOT A TELL
I pointed out that the same argument could be made that BECAUSE people BELIEVE it's more likely to come from town, it'd be a behavior that SCUM would WANT TO display because it would MAKE THEM APPEAR more town
Like how is being CAUTIOUS of another player ATTEMPTING TO APPEAR TOWN IN A CALCULATED WAY a scummy way to approach the game?

[Varsoon]

I tend to frustrate scum...

If I was scum, your ass would be dead tonight because I'm very sick of putting up with you.
I'm not fortunate enough to be blessed with a killing action, so I have to engage with you and actually sort your slot via rhetorical interaction.
Please stop being such a stubborn ass.

[Varsoon]

"The point is that scum act with the knowledge that a townie isn't acting scummy, so they must reframe behaviors they know aren't scummy as scummy."

Not true. Town will play in ways that are scummy all the time. Scum can easily latch onto those.


I'm not keen on responding to the rest of your post because it goes much further with treating me with no respect.

[Varsoon]

You're so self-righteous and 1079 is so infantilizing that I seriously do not want to continue this line of interaction. I really wish you'd just engage me as an equal within the game space.

1080 is my preferred mode.
If I assume Irrelephant is 100% town, then
TOWN
Irrelephant
xRECKONERx
Shoshin
Gammagooey
northsidegal
SirCakez
Nosferatu
Creature
Porkens
skitter30
Kokichi Oma
Gamma Emerald
SCUM

[Varsoon]

Shoshin, I think that we fundamentally disagree when it comes to how to approach the game of mafia.
It'll be okay, I think, but I do need to keep that in mind just as much as you should.
I don't think arguing over that kinda stuff is helpful for the game at all--and it doesn't do me any wonders, either.

There's about 50 hours left, as of this post.
I would appreciate it if people would start to post their reads and come to some sort of consolidation on a wagon or two.
My vote is where I want it to be right now. I am fine with voting for GammaEmerald as well. Barring any sort of revelation/damning evidence otherwise, that's it, though.

[Varsoon]

I just got them mixed up, dude.
It's really fucking obvious that

Gammagoo coming at me with "I Won't mention the game but varsoon was scum in a game once!" is reaching so far it puts Jordan's dunk at the end of Space Jam to shame.

is about GammaEmerald.

[Varsoon]

Like this post specifically.

Reck's my choice. I don't care if it's a good choice. The fact that my choice doesn't seem like a good choice to you makes me that much more sure that I want to go with my choice.

Yeah I think Varsoon is scum. He has a particular arrogance here that is similar to a past game I’ve played with him (no name drop because no one would get it). He seemed especially arrogant in pushing his mislynch of choice that game (drealmerz7).

[Varsoon]

My Gacha pick is still Recknoner.

[Varsoon]

varsoon why are you voting me for gacha

You're a townread and, due to being a double voter, less likely to have another power that the Gacha ability would conflict with.

[Varsoon]

I believe the claim as well.

UNVOTE:

But I really dont wanna be on the same wagon as varsoon and creature.

Yeah 'cus compromising on a lynch in the last 24 hours sure would suck, wouldn't it?

[Varsoon]

@Skitter: It's not a town tell for that player unless Shoshin can provide hard evidence from previous games that puts that play into towntell territory. As far as I am concerned, it's not even a towntell at all. I wrote the book when it comes to manipulating tells, too, so even if it was an actual town tell at all and a town tell for Irrel, I still wouldn't believe that 886 alone makes Irrel town. What we're arguing about is how to read 886 and that Shoshin thinks that if you doubt anything you're scum, apparently.

[Varsoon]

I think all those things about Shoshin, too, which is why I dropped that topic of conversation.

I do think it's still worth reading and informs both of our approaches to this game.

[Varsoon]

Normally, I'd be throwing down on Gammagoo for that hammer, but I'm actually pretty sure of scum that isn't him.
So right now, I'm gonna sit on that, though, 'cus I am interested in what everyone else has to think.
Gooey, do you have anything you want to share?

[Varsoon]

Irrel, if you're still reading, sorry for being insistent on your wagon. When you straight up disappeared under pressure, I thought you were caught scum not trying to throw up associative tells.

[Varsoon]

yeah check dead thread for how huge a disappointment this was.

[Varsoon]

Props to Xyzzy for running it, though! I did like the flavor/theme, too.
Please never run another setup where scum can get multiple daykills T_T

[Varsoon]

Also RC has lost 100% of his nsg-reading authority fmpov

RC tends to be a real braggart about the accuracy of their reads.
I'd never give 'em that authority even if they were right more often than not.

[Varsoon]

A ton of players took your reads as law (foolishly) and scum let that go on because those reads were wrong.
Yes, town doesn't owe it's failure to your reads, but you should still accept that when you wield influence in games, as town, you need to temper that influence with plausible doubt.

[Varsoon]

Radical, Xyzz

@RC: If you can't see why you're at fault in the Reckoner exchange, I'm sorry. You really need to take a more objective look at that.
It's not your fault the game was lost--Nos and Shoshin spent a lot of the game driving away from scum lynches and trusting Porkens for no good reason.
You are responsible, however, for heavily influencing town in a direction that was not useful for their wincon. It doesn't matter if 100% of your reads are right, what matters is how you interact with others and the direction you give townies.

@Shoshin: You can't really act vindicated here in any way--'voted scum D2'?! You mean the OUTED SCUM WHO SHOT THE TOWNIE WITH A GUILTY? Voting for scum or not being on mislynches doesn't matter, Shoshin. What matters is lynching scum. You constantly undermined town voices, including mine. You didn't insist upon the NSG lynch as hard as you should've when it become obvious NSG was scum. You allowed the Gacha to go to Porkens multiple times. You were complicit in a No Lynch in a setup where scum WERE PROVEN TO HAVE DAYKILL ACCESS and could have gotten another one via Gacha. I'm not saying you're the sole reason that town lost, but you played a huge role in keeping town from winning and a large part of why I suspect you were kept alive is due to that role.

[Varsoon]

Maybe my understanding is flawed, but I will never, ever forget the following:

I did in fact scumread NSG since D3, in case that wasn't clear (notice the jailkeep on her, as well as basically calling her scum on D3). So I dunno. How the hell wasn't she lynched? Beyond my understanding.

VOTE: nsg

I don't get why we're voting nsg instead of no lynching but if this is what we're doing, I want to be on this for the gold.

I've been supporting a no lynch from the start of this day phase.

It's like I said at the start of this day phase. The scum are NSG & Skitter. And the correct move for today, just to be safe, is no lynching.

No lynching in a closed setup is always, always, always against town's interests.

[Varsoon]

Shoshin, you can scramble to justify your play in this loss as much as you like but
In a setup where it was proven that scum have access to extra kills
Where the gacha literally could have given an extra kill to scum
You allowed the Gacha to go to scum
and no lynched going into LYLO.

You can point the finger any way you want and say that all the evidence pointed to NSG, but you still rallied for a no lynch over an NSG lynch when it mattered most.

[Varsoon]

Yes, you argued for a no lynch
INSTEAD OF A LYNCH ON CONFIRMED SCUM
IN A SETUP
WHERE SCUM COULD HAVE HAD TWO KILLS IN LYLO

[Varsoon]

It is LITERALLY what cost you the game

[Varsoon]

In most games you don't get such an obvious arc of where town lost the game but it's so damn clear right here:
Literally the ONLY players to resist an NSG lynch here are PORKENS, NSG, and SHOSHIN.
And then BASED ON SHOSHIN'S SUGGESTION
TOWN NO LYNCHES
DESPITE HAVING SCUM AT L-1

N

ormally, I'd be throwing down on Gammagoo for that hammer, but I'm actually pretty sure of scum that isn't him.

S

o right now, I'm gonna sit on that, though, 'cus I am interested in what everyone else has to think.

G

ooey, do you have anything you want to share?

uh maybe i'm overlooking things but look at the bolded, first letter of each sentence

I don't see a good case for nsg lynch

I still think the correct move is to no lynch today so that we can use gacha and items.

I kinda want to lynch scum

VOTE: nsg
I don't get why we're voting nsg instead of no lynching but if this is what we're doing, I want to be on this for the gold.

VOTE: no lynch

[Varsoon]

Nos played horribly but he's not sitting around in post trying to say his play is somehow vindicated.

[Varsoon]

You no lynched when scum could've ended the game with 2 kills in LYLO
I don't want to hear your attempts at justifying that play.

[Varsoon]

I want you to accept that you laid down poor play and try to grow from this.

[Varsoon]

Gacha could've gotten them an extra kill and Porkens got the Gacha.
Furthermore, you had no clue if scum had an extra kill, but this is a closed setup and it was PROVEN scum had an extra kill already.
Why would you assume a no lynch was fine?

[Varsoon]

You see the quotes I made above?
How town had scum at L-1 and because of your frequent suggestions of a no-lynch INSTEAD OF LYNCHING CONFIRMED SCUM, town doubted and went with the no lynch?

Yes, you didn't SINGLE HANDEDLY LOSE THE GAME FOR TOWN, but you sure did PLAY A HUGE ROLE IN IT

[Varsoon]

Varsoon, skitter and nos aren't just the left and right hands of shoshin. Both of them had the opportunity to vote scum and didn't take it. Shoshin's loss of interest and incorrect read on skitter made it hard for skitter and shoshin to get on the same page, but that doesn't mean skitter and nos's play are shoshin's fault.

tbf I think nsg upped the quality of her play jsut enough when she needed to the most, and though no one played *impressively* this game I do want to shout out nsg for that moment in mylo that may have been game-winning in retrospect

Trust, I think Skitter and Nos were also equally complicit in the game turning out this way--Nos more than skitter, but it takes a town to lose as a town, y'know?

I don't think that's a shout-out worthy moment. NSG was dead to rights and the blatant showing-up-just-to-defend-herself after a whole game of being absent shouldn't have bought her anything. It worked, and for that, yeah, good stuff, but eeeugh. It makes my skin crawl thinking that town let that skirt by.

[Varsoon]

Shoshin you did good

You're being attacked by a group who wants to assert moral superiority as opposed to wanting to make a meaningful comment.

Get off your high horse, you peasant.
Shoshin should learn here that a no lynch in a closed setup is nearly always the worst play town can make, and the more you insist Shoshin should just blindly think their play is 'good' without taking any criticism, the more you reveal the base of your inability to grow as a player.

[Varsoon]

You helped keep town from mislynching but that doesn't mean you drove lynches on scum, which is what wins town the game.

Next time please focus on getting scum lynched.

[Varsoon]

I just really, really want Shoshin to focus more on lynching scum and never no-lynching in a closed setup again.

[Varsoon]

Sorry if that comes as accusatory. Obviously, I'm more than a bit sore that I played mechanically well but still lost game despite that.

[Varsoon]

I should've claimed the block outright at daystart but I thought that I'd have a better chance of catching more scum if I crumbed it and waited to see who was scumreading/townreading NSG before I dropped a hard guilty there.

This did work out in that we caught Gammagooey, but it backfired in that even when my NSG crumb got picked up, town went with a No Lynch over it.

I'm not saying NEVER NO LYNCH AT MYLO. I'm saying NEVER NO LYNCH IN A CLOSED SETUP.
As for potential risks, scum could have gotten another kill--that's not 'really really low'. That's literally 'game over'.
Yes, you shouldn't have trusted Nos, especially given how fickle they'd proven earlier in the game, but you had more leeway on Nos fucking around while in MYLO whereas you had none in LYLO.

I've been designing closed setups for 5 years now, Shoshin.
Can you just take my advice on that?

[Varsoon]

Shoshin, I think you just need to reconsider your reads and be more critical of certain play. When it comes to unpredictable players like Nos, you want to keep them far from lylo or engage with them enough that you know they'll be voting with you/sticking to a plan. I think your plan would've been fine (no lynch then lynch NSG) but it overlooked a ton of potential issues in the setup (like scum gacha'ing into something that wins game or scum using that night to buy something game-winning or scum having roles that are game-winning with that extra night or in LYLO). That's the problem with closed setups. Even then, you should've established your plan a bit more and made sure everyone was for sure on-board with it. This day should've started with all of town voting NSG, and it didn't.


Porkens has no excuse for being globally townread in this game and I'm confident that Porkens would be dead to rights with a scum flip from NSG given how hard he defended her.

[Varsoon]

I think a lot of what you're saying about no lynching, Varsoon, comes from the mindset of avoiding any risk of a scum win, whereas my viewpoint is that it's okay to take calculated risks. A no lynch at MYLO is a calculated risk. So is faking an innocent result on someone who you think is town, which I did effectively in this game.

In past games, I've taken a number of calculated risks, and the vast majority of the time, those risks have led to town wins. As I said, this is my first town loss in a very long time. I'm obviously going to learn from it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop taking calculated risks altogether.

Calculating risks is fine but in closed setups you don't have enough data to calculate all the risks.
For instance, here, you didn't know what the gacha would be and you didn't insist it be given to you. That alone was a huge risk. I'd also argue that any results players got from items should have been negligible because scum would lie with incriminating results in a lylo that wasn't going their way, right?

[Varsoon]

You no lynched when scum could've ended the game with 2 kills in LYLO
I don't want to hear your attempts at justifying that play.

How was Shoshin supposed to know that wasn’t optimal play without cheating
Get off her case with your exclusive knowledge

I should specify in closed non-normal setups.
It's not even fucking exclusive knowledge
You're in a setup where
1. The Gacha reward is NOT SOMETHING YOU KNOW
2. The scum roles are NOT SOMETHING YOU KNOW
3. Scum has already confirmed to have had kills outside of their regular NK

There's no reason to no lynch in this MYLO situation considering those three points, period, ever.
You can hard defend Shoshin all you want but this is literally the truth.

[Varsoon]

You helped keep town from mislynching but that doesn't mean you drove lynches on scum, which is what wins town the game.

Next time please focus on getting scum lynched.

That’s what she did.
Step the fuck off.

Driving the lynch on Gamma after he scumclaimed with his daykill doesn't really count.
Pushing hard for a no lynch over a lynch on confirmed scum is literally one of the factors that contributed to the scum win.
So I won't 'step the fuck off' because I'm not wrong here.
Shoshin should have had more confidence in the NSG scumread and pushed that over the no lynch.
That's what I'm saying here.

Apologies for coming down too hard about it.

[Varsoon]

@Shoshin: You never would've had to worry about getting into that Lylo situation where Nos throws, though, if you had just lynched NSG in MYLO. Like, yes, the reality is that scum didn't get/have an extra kill, but as a player you couldn't have known that and it wasn't safe to assume that. I'd say "don't ever assume a no lynch is the best plan for town in games I run" but I've recently made no lynching literally not an option because it makes it easier to balance/design games around mechanics like gold-gain, role growth, end-of-day rewards, etc. This game should have not had a no lynch option, imo--there's already the 'randomized' swing of the gacha and what its rewards were, so compounding that atop no lynch mechanics introduced a potential for way too much swing in this setup.

I actually shouldn't play any more games for a while.

looking back I actually hate myself for just fucking over everyone like that because I was upset.

I shouldn't have let myself do that.

So long as you promise to not do it moving forward, I wouldn't give you a hard time over it.
Like, yeah, I'm frustrated for being this invested in a game that was, in the end, largely lost due to your play, but it's just a game.
So long as you accept ya done goofed and you work towards doing better in the future, it should be fine.

[Varsoon]

I am excited for whatever games you run in the future, xyzzy, regardless of the beef I had with this setup. I feel invested in your growth as a moderator and I enjoy the whimsical flavor that you write.

[Varsoon]

There literally no way you could know if scum had a killing power after Gooey's or not because this is a closed non-normal setup.
You're willing to believe a moderator would design a setup where scum gets a day-vig but it's somehow unbelievable that they may have a way to get another kill up their sleeve?

I love taking huge risks in games, but I think the risk you really should've taken here was over lynching NSG/losing versus No-lynching/Dealing with another night in this setup.

Anyway.
You are aware one of the gacha prizes was literally a vigilante shot, right?

[Varsoon]

It never occured to you that someone might fake a guilty or even have a false-guilty on a town player, claim that, and then one town votes there, leading to both scum to hammer?
For instance
Let's say Porkens faked a guilty on Nos
And Gamma votes Nos in that situation
Loss
Easy.

[Varsoon]

This is a game that has public role redirection mechanics, too.
Let's say you got the cop.
Let's say your cop results gave a false guilty on Nos.
What keeps you from voting Nos in that situation and losing game over voting NSG?

[Varsoon]

Nevermind that you know for a fact that Switcheroo is a thing in this game.
Let's say that scum has a factional mechanic to gain some gold every night.
Scum get just enough gold for a switcheroo because you gave them an extra night.
You lynch on NSG but it switcheroo's out to you.
Game over, scum win.

[Varsoon]

Let's say scum has any one of several hypothetical roles that could exist in a non-normal setup.
Let's say that this role is superior to the ones town had left over.
This role somehow wins them the game in LYLO.
It's not great design
Doesn't mean it's not something that might exist.

[Varsoon]

Scum numbers were never confirmed to town.
Let's say that Nos is a scum traitor but doesn't know his allies.
No lynch lets scum narrow it down to enough for them to have an assured voting majority so long as Nos votes town.
Traitor-Nos votes town in LYLO.
You lose again.

[Varsoon]

This setup was confirmed to have only have two factions.
Were you considering that when you went into your lylo calculations?
Many setups don't make such a confirmation, however.
Let's say this setup had a survivor.
You've now lost in LYLO again.

[Varsoon]

There's dozens of possibilities that are both ACTUAL OUTCOMES IN THIS GAME as well as potentials that you could not have possibly known the chances of existing in this game or not.
The point I'm trying to make here is this; you lynching the player you are sure is scum is always a better play in a closed non-normal setup than going with a no lynch.
Here, it would have literally lead to you winning the game.
Yes, skitter was the first to drop off and vote for the no lynch, but you still proposed and were complicit in that plan. All of town was. This isn't just advice for you, this is advice for the four townies who all voted for a no lynch in MYLO in a closed non-normal setup that is confirmed to have role growth and extra kills available to scum.

[Varsoon]

Should be either instead of both in that first sentence but
yeah.

Gamma, why'd you vote for no lynch here?
Nos, I can get--he just wanted the game to be over.
Skitter already explained it--she was having second thoughts and doubting everything.

[Varsoon]

...but every single town player had either voiced a scumread of NSG or voted NSG with the exception of porkens.

[Varsoon]

Next time, please put in the effort.

[Varsoon]

If you want to talk facts, there are two hard facts:
1. You all went with a no lynch over a lynch on scum.
2. The gacha had a 1 out of 7 chance of giving Porkens a vigilante shot and a 2 out of 7 chance of giving him a ton of gold (enough to put him at 358 or 458, would have been enough for Switcheroo if Porkens handled his gold gain right)

If you somehow think that no lynching here didn't decrease town's chances of winning, you're literally wrong.
Even in the actual situation that played out, you're still wrong, because a no-lynch here still lowered the lynch threshold to 3 instead of 4, which made it so only one town had to vote wrong, and go figure, Nos voted wrong.

The potential benefits that you get from a no lynch in a closed non-normal setup, by design, will always be weaker than the risk posed. No lynching in MYLO just sets you up for scum to fake a guilty result off of some action and force a 1v1 if things are looking bad for them--and if things aren't looking bad for them, then they just win.

It is completely fine to say that No Lynching went hand in hand with Nos' game-throw vote because Nos would have never been able to make such a vote if you had simply kept the lynch threshold at 4 and evaluated the ENTIRE GAME OF EVIDENCE that you already have. If you are so incapable of catching scum with 100 pages of content and 5 nights of role interactions and a claimed roleblocker on scum that resulted in a no kill, I can't fathom how you think one more night of interactions behooves you.


There are games that reward no lynching and I'd highly argue that games designed for that (intentionally or not) are poorly designed games of mafia. That's neither here nor there, though.

[Varsoon]

If you're in a normal setup in MYLO, sure, no lynch.
If you're in an open or semi-open and it's clear the roles in play would give town better info to use, sure, no lynch.
But even then you run high risk of scum forcing a 1v1 with a fake claim.