Once more, a mastina 13-player pre-designed setup

[implosion]

13p mini:

TOWN:
Mason x2
Neighbor x2
Neighborizer
VT x5

vs.

SCUM:
PT Cop
Goon x2

All PTs have daytalk.

Note:

This setup can be viewed as one of two ways: neighbors as basically-VT, or neighbors as if they are PRs.
By the latter definition, the town shouldn't need anything; by the former, they MAY be a bit light on power, and if so, the role I'd default to adding is a fruit vendor. Something to give just that

small

extra push.
I want to avoid a big info-getter, e.g. cop, gunsmith, neapolitan, tracker, watcher, follower, (dis)loyal modifier, weak modifier; I want to avoid adding killstopping power to the town, beit protectives, blocking, or kill immunity. So if the town needs something more than what they have, it needs to be something SMALL.

If the scum are considered weak, I can buff them slightly by making the PT Cop Multitasking, but it shouldn't be necessary given three members.

[mastina]

Yo.

[schadd_]

yo

[schadd_]

in my memory neighbors haven't been great town utility - site culture has a lot of people that specifically enjoy and put a lot of effort into pocketing specific people and i have seen scum on several occasions make very effective use out of neighborhoods or even like specifically gameplan around them

the hood between town i think will be a bit of a positive utility (people just innately townread ppl they are hooded with a little bit) and the neighborizer can probably interact with the masons decently. i still think it needs a little bit more power - town odd-night rolecop maybe? i like it when neighborizer can try to hit an informed role like that and also rolecop is kind of weak in that people will think pt cop is a town role i think

[implosion]

What do you think is the overall utility/power level of neighbors? I personally consider them nil or very close to nil from a balance perspective, and I'd consider neighborizers very weak positive utility. So I glance at this and I think that there are 2 "real" power roles in the town in the masons, and that they need significantly more, but I'm open to persuasion on that. I like schadd's idea of some kind of rolecop as a possibility though even a full rolecop is ultimately not really that strong here (neighbors are going to claim eventually anyway, masons are a nice find but not strictly the most useful thing in the world, and it has no real guilties unless the pt cop fakeclaims).

[schadd_]

ooh how about odd rc even motion detector to make use of the new exciting hybrid role change

[implosion]

that's actually kind of a neat role in isolation too since it can find out someone doesn't have a power role then motion detect them the next night.

[schadd_]

yeah

also make it multitasking for funzies even though that doesn't have an effect

wanna push against the natural tendency of setup design to not include things where they don't have a use

something like a loud townie is something i'd also want for example

[implosion]

how about a ninja odd-night cop even-night psychologist traitor?

[schadd_]

you say that but i think a town ninja would be apt

[schadd_]

like pre-designed setups are the nrg's way of saying "here are things you should perhaps be doing in your normal setups" and i think a garbage festival of false positive townroles is something i think would push the normal queue towards where i want it

[mastina]

What do you think is the overall utility/power level of neighbors? I personally consider them nil or very close to nil from a balance perspective, and I'd consider neighborizers very weak positive utility. So I glance at this and I think that there are 2 "real" power roles in the town in the masons, and that they need significantly more, but I'm open to persuasion on that. I like schadd's idea of some kind of rolecop as a possibility though even a full rolecop is ultimately not really that strong here (neighbors are going to claim eventually anyway, masons are a nice find but not strictly the most useful thing in the world, and it has no real guilties unless the pt cop fakeclaims).

I view them as situational. They add very little on their own, but provide a high level of potential synergy when the setup becomes more clear.

By that, I mean: this is a game where half the town holds a role. They are all the same kind of role. This is not something that is immediately apparent, but when made evident, is RIDICULOUSLY easy to figure out.

What I mean by that, is: while there will be suspicion on the neighbors initially, when it becomes clear that the setup has no other power, it isn't hard to deduce that they are a second masonry.

In other words.

The setup, with a massclaim, is reasonably easy to figure out.

My concern about adding extra is both veering dangerously close to role madness, AND, that the town can break the setup with ease if too much is added.

That's why I said absolutely no protectives or investigatives. The town, if it needs more, needs just a small push, a little extra like a fruit vendor. If we give them any more than that, we are literally hand holding them to victory.

Towns need a little hand holding, sure, but as bad as they may be, they don't need THAT much extra.

[implosion]

I'm skeptical that it can be predicted that towns will definitely react with "Oh, the neighbors must be a second masonry." I could easily see reactions of "Oh, the neighbors are contrasted with the masons, so one might be scum", or "Well, there's masons and probably two town neighbors, so it would make sense if the neighborizer was scum" or "if the PT cop claim is fake, then the town has no real power at all, and this game was reviewed, right? So it must be real."

Basically I'm just skeptical of design where we assume people will see a set of claimed information and react to it in a given way.

[schadd_]

disagree that massclaim makes neighbors seem town, maybe the neighborizer

there could be a traitor if 2 scum are left

town neighbor + scum neighbor can be seen as positive town utility as there is another way for that town to sort someone (doesnt apply to scum neighborizer as much)

i have modded a game where two entire ass town PRs claimed VT in lylo

scum can potentially notice that gap and claim PRs themselves

with rare exceptions that mastina is the designer of the setup, most people aren't going to ask "is the mod trying to tell us something?" if PR strength doesnt add up, nor will they be that confident about PR strength to begin with

people also i think tend to look for interruptions in the pattern rather than assume it holds, like, "which of these neighborhood roles is scum? there's gotta be at least one"

[schadd_]

implo this is why ninja should be blacklisted

[mastina]

Basically I'm just skeptical of design where we assume people will see a set of claimed information and react to it in a given way.

The problem isn't that they'll react that way for sure, as much as it is, that by adding too much it becomes too easy for them to react that way for sure.

What I mean by that is that I fully recognize that the setup as it is isn't going to allow them to do that with any significant level of chance--but that if you add anything too powerful to the town, that they WILL be able to do it.

That's why I'd shy away from even an Odd-night rolecop. The rolecop can confirm the masons as town; the rolecop can get a result on the PT Cop and when it's known that the game has a town neighborizer, town masons, and town neighbors the PT Cop would stand out as a guilty result (admittedly, yes, it does require both town neighbors and the town neighborizer dead); the rolecop can reveal the neighborizer and from that it's usually not that hard to deduce that the neighborizer is town (town neighborizers may not add much to the town, but scum neighborizers are one of the strongest scum roles around); the rolecop can reveal that the neighbors are in fact just neighbors, not PRs, not traitors, just vanilla, therefore, VT or Goon.

Give the town a role which works too well with what roles they already have, and that role suddenly makes a tremendous difference. (Especially since the fact that I designed the setup may not be hidden from scummers. Even if the mod doesn't state it explicitly, if a member of the NRG is a player in the game, they have access to that insider information and can leak the fact it was designed by me to the town. Which honestly shouldn't happen, but can and has happened in the past, and there's no rule forbidding it from happening again. The 13p mini modded by Psyche was as far as I know not publicly disclosed anywhere to be designed by me, but during the game Ircher as a NRG member knew it was designed by me and told the town this fact.)

A motion detector would probably be okay to use. It's technically an investigative, yes, but it's also an incredibly difficult one to get a meaningful result by using, and it's an investigative that doesn't break the game in favor of the town. But that's the level of power I feel the town would need to not be overpowered, here.

[schadd_]

something i'm considering is adding some informed role that tips the balance towards figuring out what you want. something kind of obvious but might be useful is having the neighborizer be informed that one of the neighbors is town, or one of the neighbors knowing the other is town, or one of the neighbors knowing the neighborizer is town, etc. it's only one piece of information but it sorta like, puts the idea in people's heads? like if one neighbor knows the other is town it's easy to conclude they're essentially just masons, also if the neighborhood knows the neighborizer is town it reflects well on whomever the informed one is

i don't think that a town pt cop is impossible here (you could make the argument that it's already strong for town and a role that can only get a few innocents is still strong esp. with a lot of other possibly town power), however i think the converse is true, that a PT cop flip looks really good for all town roles with PTs

rolecop result on a neighborizer is trivial because a townie that gets neighborized essentially receives that result

something like an even-night motion detector, alternately, is enough for me to be fine with the balance

i think it should be public who designed the setup, that's a kind of important norm of the rest of the queue and is a nonzero part of most games. it's also yucky that nrg players would just know this, although not many of us regularly play in the normal queue

[schadd_]

novice 1-shot rolecop 2-shot motion detector???????????????????????????????????

[mastina]

something i'm considering is adding some informed role that tips the balance towards figuring out what you want.

That's not what I want.

What I want is for the town to not, from roleclaims alone, be almost guaranteed a win.

Their current power level doesn't allow them to, from roleclaims alone, be almost guaranteed a win, but it also has them as underpowered.

What we need is to fix the problem of them being underpowered, but not overshoot it so that, from roleclaims alone, they are guaranteed a win.

Which is what I'm getting at. The fine line between giving the town extra, but not having the extra be so OP that the town wins with no problem.

something like an even-night motion detector, alternately, is enough for me to be fine with the balance

I actually think an even night motion detector is a little underpowered.

What we could do, though, is combine your idea of a combination role with the motion detector and my original suggestion.
What do you think of an odd-night fruit vendor, even-night motion detector?

[schadd_]

loud odd-night fv even night md?

just bc loud fruit vendor has only appeared twice and been a scum role which i think is silly

[mastina]

loud odd-night fv even night md?
just bc loud fruit vendor has only appeared twice and been a scum role which i think is silly

Not quite the word order I'd use, since with that, the motion detector would also be loud. (Which I suppose is okay, but I feel acts as a nerf to the investigative as it tips the scum off too early.)

Odd-night Loud Fruit Vendor, Even Night Motion Detector?

[schadd_]

i think it should be public who designed the setup, that's a kind of important norm of the rest of the queue and is a nonzero part of most games. it's also yucky that nrg players would just know this, although not many of us regularly play in the normal queue

probably ought to make a thread about this after this game ends

might not be an issue to make it now but might be leaky in some way

[schadd_]

loud odd-night fv even night md?
just bc loud fruit vendor has only appeared twice and been a scum role which i think is silly

Not quite the word order I'd use, since with that, the motion detector would also be loud. (Which I suppose is okay, but I feel acts as a nerf to the investigative as it tips the scum off too early.)

Odd-night Loud Fruit Vendor, Even Night Motion Detector?

oh huh i guess it does work like that

we should standardize whether modifiers interact with multi-roles; multitasking for example is a global modifier but it's not entirely clear why it differs from e.g. odd-night

[implosion]

hmmm i will just start listing the designer of pre-designed setups in the signup announcement. Probably should have been doing that, just an oversight.

[schadd_]

oh worm