Once more, a mastina 13-player pre-designed setup

[mastina]

Yo.

[mastina]

What do you think is the overall utility/power level of neighbors? I personally consider them nil or very close to nil from a balance perspective, and I'd consider neighborizers very weak positive utility. So I glance at this and I think that there are 2 "real" power roles in the town in the masons, and that they need significantly more, but I'm open to persuasion on that. I like schadd's idea of some kind of rolecop as a possibility though even a full rolecop is ultimately not really that strong here (neighbors are going to claim eventually anyway, masons are a nice find but not strictly the most useful thing in the world, and it has no real guilties unless the pt cop fakeclaims).

I view them as situational. They add very little on their own, but provide a high level of potential synergy when the setup becomes more clear.

By that, I mean: this is a game where half the town holds a role. They are all the same kind of role. This is not something that is immediately apparent, but when made evident, is RIDICULOUSLY easy to figure out.

What I mean by that, is: while there will be suspicion on the neighbors initially, when it becomes clear that the setup has no other power, it isn't hard to deduce that they are a second masonry.

In other words.

The setup, with a massclaim, is reasonably easy to figure out.

My concern about adding extra is both veering dangerously close to role madness, AND, that the town can break the setup with ease if too much is added.

That's why I said absolutely no protectives or investigatives. The town, if it needs more, needs just a small push, a little extra like a fruit vendor. If we give them any more than that, we are literally hand holding them to victory.

Towns need a little hand holding, sure, but as bad as they may be, they don't need THAT much extra.

[mastina]

Basically I'm just skeptical of design where we assume people will see a set of claimed information and react to it in a given way.

The problem isn't that they'll react that way for sure, as much as it is, that by adding too much it becomes too easy for them to react that way for sure.

What I mean by that is that I fully recognize that the setup as it is isn't going to allow them to do that with any significant level of chance--but that if you add anything too powerful to the town, that they WILL be able to do it.

That's why I'd shy away from even an Odd-night rolecop. The rolecop can confirm the masons as town; the rolecop can get a result on the PT Cop and when it's known that the game has a town neighborizer, town masons, and town neighbors the PT Cop would stand out as a guilty result (admittedly, yes, it does require both town neighbors and the town neighborizer dead); the rolecop can reveal the neighborizer and from that it's usually not that hard to deduce that the neighborizer is town (town neighborizers may not add much to the town, but scum neighborizers are one of the strongest scum roles around); the rolecop can reveal that the neighbors are in fact just neighbors, not PRs, not traitors, just vanilla, therefore, VT or Goon.

Give the town a role which works too well with what roles they already have, and that role suddenly makes a tremendous difference. (Especially since the fact that I designed the setup may not be hidden from scummers. Even if the mod doesn't state it explicitly, if a member of the NRG is a player in the game, they have access to that insider information and can leak the fact it was designed by me to the town. Which honestly shouldn't happen, but can and has happened in the past, and there's no rule forbidding it from happening again. The 13p mini modded by Psyche was as far as I know not publicly disclosed anywhere to be designed by me, but during the game Ircher as a NRG member knew it was designed by me and told the town this fact.)

A motion detector would probably be okay to use. It's technically an investigative, yes, but it's also an incredibly difficult one to get a meaningful result by using, and it's an investigative that doesn't break the game in favor of the town. But that's the level of power I feel the town would need to not be overpowered, here.

[mastina]

something i'm considering is adding some informed role that tips the balance towards figuring out what you want.

That's not what I want.

What I want is for the town to not, from roleclaims alone, be almost guaranteed a win.

Their current power level doesn't allow them to, from roleclaims alone, be almost guaranteed a win, but it also has them as underpowered.

What we need is to fix the problem of them being underpowered, but not overshoot it so that, from roleclaims alone, they are guaranteed a win.

Which is what I'm getting at. The fine line between giving the town extra, but not having the extra be so OP that the town wins with no problem.

something like an even-night motion detector, alternately, is enough for me to be fine with the balance

I actually think an even night motion detector is a little underpowered.

What we could do, though, is combine your idea of a combination role with the motion detector and my original suggestion.
What do you think of an odd-night fruit vendor, even-night motion detector?

[mastina]

loud odd-night fv even night md?
just bc loud fruit vendor has only appeared twice and been a scum role which i think is silly

Not quite the word order I'd use, since with that, the motion detector would also be loud. (Which I suppose is okay, but I feel acts as a nerf to the investigative as it tips the scum off too early.)

Odd-night Loud Fruit Vendor, Even Night Motion Detector?

[mastina]

Good chance this will go into signups pretty soon - can we get role PMs?

Once I'm home, yes!

[mastina]

Town Mason

Welcome,

Playername

.
You are a

Town

Mason

.

You know that your masonry, comprised of

X

, is confirmed to be town-aligned.

At any time, you may talk with your masonry in this private topic.

You win if all threats to

the

town

are eliminated, and at least one

town

player lives.

Confirm via PM.

Game thread is here.

Town Neighbor

Welcome,

Playername

.
You are a

Town

Neighbor

.

At any time, you may talk with your neighborhood in this private topic.

You win if all threats to

the

town

are eliminated, and at least one

town

player lives.

Confirm via PM.

Game thread is here.

Town Neighborizer

Welcome,

Playername

.
You are a

Town

Neighborizer

.

During the night, you may target a player. Should your action succeed, they will be added to your neighborhood.

At any time, you may talk with your neighborhood in this private topic.

You win if all threats to

the

town

are eliminated, and at least one

town

player lives.

Confirm via PM.

Game thread is here.

Recruitment Message

You have been recruited to this neighborhood by

playername

.

Town Odd-Night Loud Fruit Vendor, Even-Night Motion Detector

Welcome,

Playername

.
You are a

Town

Odd-night

Loud

Fruit Vendor

,

Even-night

Motion Detector

.

During the night, on odd nights, you may target a player. Should your action succeed, they will be told "you have received a piece of fruit!".
They will also be told "

[Your name]

visited you last night".

During the night, on even nights, you may target a player. You will receive results in the form of "You sensed motion", "You did not sense motion", or "

[No Result]

".

You win if all threats to

the

town

are eliminated, and at least one

town

player lives.

Confirm via PM.

Game thread is here.

Vanilla Townie

Welcome,

Playername

.
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Your only weapons are your voice and vote.

You win if all threats to

the

town

are eliminated, and at least one

town

player lives.

Confirm via PM.

Game thread is here.

Mafia Goon

Welcome,

Playername

.
You are a

Mafia

Goon

.

Your only weapons are your voice and vote.

Your team is comprised of

X

(

Goon

) and

Y

(

PT Cop

).

At any time, you may talk with your scumteam in this private topic.

During the night, your faction may name one of your members, and target a player. Should they succeed, they will attempt to nightkill that player. The person performing the nightkill may not both action and kill.

You win if nothing prevents

the

Mafia

from holding majority, and at least one

mafia

player lives.

Confirm via PM.

Game thread is here.

Mafia PT Cop

Welcome,

Playername

.
You are a

Mafia

PT Cop

.

During the night, you may target a player. You will receive results in the form of, "

Has No PT Access

",

Has PT Access

", or "

[No Result]

".

Your team is comprised of

X

and

Y

, both

Goons

.

At any time, you may talk with your scumteam in this private topic.

During the night, your faction may name one of your members, and target a player. Should they succeed, they will attempt to nightkill that player. The person performing the nightkill may not both action and kill.

You win if nothing prevents

the

Mafia

from holding majority, and at least one

mafia

player lives.

Confirm via PM.

Game thread is here.

Spoiler: Code

Code: Select all

[area=Town Mason]Welcome, [b]Playername[/b].
You are a [b][color=green]Town[/color] [wiki=Mason][color=green]Mason[/color][/wiki][/b].

You know that your masonry, comprised of [b]X[/b], is confirmed to be town-aligned.

At any time, you may talk with your masonry in [url=link]this private topic[/url].

You win if all threats to [color=green]the [b]town[/b][/color] are eliminated, and at least one [color=green][b]town[/b][/color] player lives.

Confirm via PM.

Game thread is [url=link]here[/url].[/area]

[area=Town Neighbor]Welcome, [b]Playername[/b].
You are a [b][color=green]Town[/color] [wiki=Neighbor][color=green]Neighbor[/color][/wiki][/b].

At any time, you may talk with your neighborhood in [url=link]this private topic[/url].

You win if all threats to [color=green]the [b]town[/b][/color] are eliminated, and at least one [color=green][b]town[/b][/color] player lives.

Confirm via PM.

Game thread is [url=link]here[/url].[/area]

[area=Town Neighborizer]Welcome, [b]Playername[/b].
You are a [b][color=green]Town[/color] [wiki=Neighborizer][color=green]Neighborizer[/color][/wiki][/b].

During the night, you may target a player. Should your action succeed, they will be added to your neighborhood.

At any time, you may talk with your neighborhood in [url=link]this private topic[/url].

You win if all threats to [color=green]the [b]town[/b][/color] are eliminated, and at least one [color=green][b]town[/b][/color] player lives.

Confirm via PM.

Game thread is [url=link]here[/url].[/area][mech=Recruitment Message]You have been recruited to [url=link]this neighborhood[/url] by [b]playername[/b].[/mech]

[area=Town Odd-Night Loud Fruit Vendor, Even-Night Motion Detector]Welcome, [b]Playername[/b].
You are a [b][color=green]Town[/color] [wiki=Even/Odd Night][color=green]Odd-night[/color][/wiki] [wiki=Loud][color=green]Loud[/color][/wiki] [wiki=Fruit Vendor][color=green]Fruit Vendor[/color][/wiki], [wiki=Even/Odd Night][color=green]Even-night[/color][/wiki] [wiki=Motion Detector][color=green]Motion Detector[/color][/wiki][/b].

During the night, on odd nights, you may target a player. Should your action succeed, they will be told "you have received a piece of fruit!".
They will also be told "[b][Your name][/b] visited you last night".

During the night, on even nights, you may target a player. You will receive results in the form of "You sensed motion", "You did not sense motion", or "[b][No Result][/b]".

You win if all threats to [color=green]the [b]town[/b][/color] are eliminated, and at least one [color=green][b]town[/b][/color] player lives.

Confirm via PM.

Game thread is [url=link]here[/url].[/area]

[area=Vanilla Townie]Welcome, [b]Playername[/b].
You are a [b][color=green]Vanilla Townie[/color][/b].

Your only weapons are your voice and vote.

You win if all threats to [color=green]the [b]town[/b][/color] are eliminated, and at least one [color=green][b]town[/b][/color] player lives.

Confirm via PM.

Game thread is [url=link]here[/url].[/area]

[area=Mafia Goon]Welcome, [b]Playername[/b].
You are a [b][color=red]Mafia[/color] [wiki=Goon][color=red]Goon[/color][/wiki][/b].

Your only weapons are your voice and vote.

Your team is comprised of [b]X[/b] ([wiki=Goon][color=red]Goon[/color][/wiki]) and [b]Y[/b] ([wiki=PT Cop][color=red]PT Cop[/color][/wiki]).

At any time, you may talk with your scumteam in [url=link]this private topic[/url].

During the night, your faction may name one of your members, and target a player. Should they succeed, they will attempt to [wiki=Nightkill]nightkill[/wiki] that player. The person performing the nightkill may not both action and kill.

You win if nothing prevents [color=red]the [b]Mafia[/b][/color] from holding majority, and at least one [color=red][b]mafia[/b][/color] player lives.

Confirm via PM.

Game thread is [url=link]here[/url].[/area]

[area=Mafia PT Cop]Welcome, [b]Playername[/b].
You are a [b][color=red]Mafia[/color] [wiki=PT Cop][color=red]PT Cop[/color][/wiki][/b].

During the night, you may target a player. You will receive results in the form of, "[b][color=green]Has No PT Access[/color][/b]", [b][color=red]Has PT Access[/color][/b]", or "[b][No Result][/b]".

Your team is comprised of [b]X[/b] and [b]Y[/b], both [wiki=Goon][color=red]Goons[/color][/wiki].

At any time, you may talk with your scumteam in [url=link]this private topic[/url].

During the night, your faction may name one of your members, and target a player. Should they succeed, they will attempt to [wiki=Nightkill]nightkill[/wiki] that player. The person performing the nightkill may not both action and kill.

You win if nothing prevents [color=red]the [b]Mafia[/b][/color] from holding majority, and at least one [color=red][b]mafia[/b][/color] player lives.

Confirm via PM.

Game thread is [url=link]here[/url].[/area]

[mastina]

The final setup is:
Mason x2
Neighbor x2
Neighborizer
Odd Night Loud Fruit Vendor, Even Night Motion Detector
VT x4

Vs.
Mafia PT cop
Goon x2.

The role pm formatting can be found in 31 inside the Code spoiler.

[mastina]

More when I get home from work; don't send roles before I can verify that you got them all, since it seems that you missed one.

[mastina]

First off, saving a lot of time: read This page.

It lists the action priority. So yes.
Neighborizer is shot? Target's still added to the neighborhood.
Neighborizer targets someone not in a PT, PT cop targets that player? Positive on "has a pt".

[mastina]

what i would do is one pm called "night 1 results" with:
-you have received fruit!
-[player] has visited you last night
in randomized order. i think its reasonably clear that they're separate things with that, and like people will probably think "oh loud fruit vendor" either way

incidentally in the past i have given this message except it was from two different roles and also i told the player his results in person

This is also what I do, although I personally always list the Loud part last, regardless.

I gave formatting in the role pm list I believe, but the way I'd do it is indeed,
"You have received a piece of fruit!
You know that Playername targeted you last night."

[mastina]

Also, a personal golden rule of mine when resolving night actions: when in doubt, read the written wording of the role PMs in question.

In this case, if you verbatim use the roles I wrote, the Loud Fruit Vendor PM tells you how to give the result:
They're told, "You have received a piece of fruit!"
They are also told (also, in this case, implying in addition to, which I would interpret as being added on, thus, after, but in the same PM), "[Name of fruit vendor player] visited you last night."