Mafiascum.net

Posted: **Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:02 pm**

Not Known 15 wrote:This is the setup.
If you dont have standardized rules yet I can give you rules, too.

8
Vanilla Townie

Spoiler:
Vanilla TownieAbilities:
You have no abilities other than your voice and your vote.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive
(or nothing can prevent the same)
.

1
Mafia Goon

Spoiler:
Mafia GoonAbilities:
Factional Communication: Each night phase, you may talk to your group here [Link].
Factional Kill: Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
Win Conditions:
You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

1
Town Night 9 Bulletproof Night 9 Vigilante

Spoiler:
Town Night 9 Bulletproof Night 9 VigilanteAbilities:You may attempt to kill another player.
Modifiers:Night 9:You can only use your role on Night 9.
Night 9 Bulletproof: You cannot be killed on Night 9.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive
(or nothing can prevent the same)
.

1
Town Ascetic Loyal Ninja 1-shot Fruit Vendor

Spoiler:
Town Ascetic Loyal Ninja 1-shot Fruit VendorAbilities:Fruit Vend:At night you may target a player in the game to attempt to give them a piece of fruit. The fruit does nothing
but they will notice its arrival
.
Modifiers:1-shot: You may only use your role once.
Ascetic: All visits to you except kills are prevented.
Loyal: Targeting those of a different alignment fails.
Ninja: Your visits are hidden.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive
(or nothing can prevent the same)
.

1
Town Ascetic Disloyal Ninja Babysitter

Spoiler:
Town Ascetic Disloyal Ninja BabysitterAbilities:
Babysit: Each night phase, you may target one player in the game to babysit them. They will be protected from a single kill. However, if you are killed, your target will die with you.
Modifiers: Ascetic: All visits to you except kills are prevented.
Disloyal: Targeting those of the same alignment fails.
Ninja: Your visits are hidden.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive
(or nothing can prevent the same)
.

1
Town JOAT(Commuter/Cop/Disloyal Vigilante)

Spoiler:
Town JOAT(Commuter/Cop/Disloyal Vigilante)You have multiple 1-shot abilities that can be used on different nights, each ability once in the game(factional abilities can be used more than once).
Abilities:Commute: You cannot be targeted by any means.
Investigate: Each night phase, you may target one player in the game to investigate them. You will receive a result of "Town", "Anti-town", or "No Result".
Targeting those of the same alignment fails.
Disloyal Kill:You may attempt to kill another player. Targeting those of the same alignment fails.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive
(or nothing can prevent the same)
.

2
Town Multitasking JOAT(Bodyguard/Jailkeeper/Motion Detector/Roleblocker/Tracker/Voyeur)

Spoiler:
Town Multitasking JOAT(Bodyguard/Jailkeeper/Motion Detector/Roleblocker/Tracker/Voyeur)You have multiple 1-shot abilities that can be used on different nights, each ability once in the game(factional abilities can be used more than once).
Abilities: Bodyguard:Sacrifice yourself to save your target from one attack, if it gets attacked.
Jailkeeper:You may jailkeep a player in the game by sending a PM to the mod. You will simultaneously roleblock that player, and protect that player from any number of nightkills.
Motion Detector: Determine if this is true or false: Your target was visited by others or visited others.
Roleblocker:You may target another player in the game to attempt to block them from performing any night actions.
Track:You may investigate one player in the game and you will discover which player they targeted (if any).
Voyeur:Determine which actions targeted your target tonight.
Modifiers:Multitasking:You may use all abilities you have access to simultaneously(but not the same ability more than once)
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive
(or nothing can prevent the same)
.

1
Town Innocent Child

Spoiler:
Town Innocent ChildRole:Innocent Child:You are confirmed to be town.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive
(or nothing can prevent the same)
.

1
Mafia Informed

Spoiler:
Mafia InformedAbilities:

Factional Communication: Each night phase, you may talk to your group here [Link].
Factional Kill: Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
Modifiers:Informed:You know that at least one other mafia power role(not Goon) is also present as town power role(without the factional abilities). You know that there is no Role Cop, Vanilla Cop or Neapolitan. These informations are redacted upon your flip.
Win Conditions:

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

1
Mafia Multitasking JOAT(Bodyguard/Jailkeeper/Motion Detector/Roleblocker/Tracker/Voyeur)

Spoiler:
Mafia Multitasking JOAT(Bodyguard/Jailkeeper/Motion Detector/Roleblocker/Tracker/Voyeur)You have multiple 1-shot abilities that can be used on different nights, each ability once in the game(factional abilities can be used more than once)
Abilities: Bodyguard:Sacrifice yourself to save your target from one attack, if it gets attacked.
Jailkeeper:You may jailkeep a player in the game by sending a PM to the mod. You will simultaneously roleblock that player, and protect that player from any number of nightkills.
Motion Detector: Determine if this is true or false: Your target was visited by others or visited others.
Roleblocker:You may target another player in the game to attempt to block them from performing any night actions.
Track:You may investigate one player in the game and you will discover which player they targeted (if any).
Voyeur:Determine which actions targeted your target tonight.
Modifiers:Multitasking:You may use all abilities you have access to simultaneously(but not the same ability more than once)
Factional Communication: Each night phase, you may talk to your group here [Link].
Factional Kill: Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
Win Conditions:
You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

1
Mafia (1-shot Ninja) Motion Detector

Spoiler:
Mafia (1-shot Ninja) Motion DetectorAbilities:
Factional Communication: Each night phase, you may talk to your group here [Link].
Factional Kill: Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
Motion Detector: Determine if this is true or false: Your target was visited by others or visited others.
Modifiers:1-shot Ninja:Your visits are hidden on the first night you visit someone.
Win Conditions:
You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Posted: **Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:03 pm**

Primary reviewer: Ircher
Secondary reviewer: RadiantCowbells

Posted: **Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:38 pm**

as the secondary reviewer I'll just come in and say this is a ridiculously complex setup for a normal

I leave it to ircher to determine what to do about that.

Posted: **Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:48 am**

Like Radiant, and like I said earlier when I first saw this setup, I do think that this setup is quite complex for a normal.

Ok, let's start from the top...

8 VTs in a 19p setup is on the lower side but generally okay.
The mafia goon and 4p mafia team is definitely fine numbers-wise.
What's the point of the N9 Bulletproof N9 Vigilante? Unless you give me a compelling reason otherwise, I think it's best just to convert that to VT.
Why is the fruit vendor ascetic and ninja?
Why is the babysitter Ascetic and ninja?
I don't really have a problem with either JOAT but they are complex enough to make it difficult to balance.
The Innocent Child is good.

Balance-wise, I think mafia are too strong and town too weak.

Suggestions:
1. Just drop the N9 Bulletproof N9 Vig. Make it a VT.
2. Drop Ascetic and Ninja from both the fruit vendor and babysitter.
3. Increase the town fruit vendor from 1-shot to 2-shot.
4. Replace the mafia motion detector with a goon.

I think that will bring it a lot closer to normal standards without destroying the setup's idea.

Posted: **Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:49 am**

Oh, I didn't notice there was two of the town multitasking JOAT. I'm gonna also request you replace that with something else, maybe a bit lower power.

Posted: **Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:34 am**

In post 3, Ircher wrote:Like Radiant, and like I said earlier when I first saw this setup, I do think that this setup is quite complex for a normal.

Ok, let's start from the top...

8 VTs in a 19p setup is on the lower side but generally okay.
The mafia goon and 4p mafia team is definitely fine numbers-wise.
What's the point of the N9 Bulletproof N9 Vigilante? Unless you give me a compelling reason otherwise, I think it's best just to convert that to VT.
Why is the fruit vendor ascetic and ninja?
Why is the babysitter Ascetic and ninja?
I don't really have a problem with either JOAT but they are complex enough to make it difficult to balance.
The Innocent Child is good.

Balance-wise, I think mafia are too strong and town too weak.

Suggestions:
1. Just drop the N9 Bulletproof N9 Vig. Make it a VT.
2. Drop Ascetic and Ninja from both the fruit vendor and babysitter.
3. Increase the town fruit vendor from 1-shot to 2-shot.
4. Replace the mafia motion detector with a goon.

I think that will bring it a lot closer to normal standards without destroying the setup's idea.

In post 4, Ircher wrote:Oh, I didn't notice there was two of the town multitasking JOAT. I'm gonna also request you replace that with something else, maybe a bit lower power.

Well, most of that isn't this simple.
First of all, the second JOAT you missed was obviously part of the balance.
Second:Dropping the Ascetic from the Babysitter is ok, that was a remnant of an old idea. Dropping the Ninja -I'd rather not; there is a reason for this: Paired with the Tracker+Voyeur it could be used to get unintended guilties, and it was designed to be invisible to the motion detector.
Removing Ascetic, yes. More shots, absolutely not. More importantly, the piece of fruit makes the Innocent result public, whenever it dies, because by then it is obvious that there isnt a second vendor. And it is still possible to fakeclaim yourself out of it, for a short time, if it hits early. At the same time town does not need, absolutely not, another shot on that. That's too much- town has the cop/disloyal vig JOAT, thats enough of powerful investigatives. The motion detector is 1. the ninja that evades a tracker 2.a power role seeker. ... but not 2 before 1. Decisions...

Third: The N9 is an outlier to fine balance the setup.... while not picking one more confirmable role in it; yet extremely horrible for Mafia if left alive.
Lategame balance, when the JOATs have used all their shots. Still a valid lynch target.
The Informed gets better if I remove the MD. But I want to keep the Informed as is....

Why should I remove one of the JOATS?
The balance seems fine to me, if I remove the Ascetic from the Babysitter, and from the vendor.
They will stick out early less.
I want to keep the Informed, but I don't want to make it clear that the big JOAT is the one that exists elsewhere.

So:

Ascetic

Ninja Disloyal Babysitter,

Ascetic

Ninja Loyal 1-shot Fruit Vendor; ok.
Keep JOAT's? Is that OK? Or if not, why replace one?
If you think mafia is still a bit powerful I could give the MD itself X-shot.

Posted: **Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:43 am**

Not Known 15's Setup: Power Analysis*

Key:

Overpowered = 17+
Very Strong = 14
Strong = 10
Moderately Strong = 7
Moderate = 5
Moderately Weak = 3
Weak = 2
Negligible = 0
-----

Basic Setup

: 15 Town v. 4 Mafia = -26.

This is fairly typical ratio. The guide points are that 7-2 requires one moderately strong pr, 10-3 requires two to three moderately strong prs, so 15-4 should require about the equivalent of two to three strong prs.
-----
8x VT = 8 * 0.02 = +0.16 : Having more VTs and town players in generally has a slight effect in allowing more mislynches.

1x Town N9 Bulletproof N9 Vigilante = +1 : This ability, while powerful, requires lasting so late in the game that the role's value is pretty negligible.

1x Loyal Ninja 1-Shot Fruit Vendor = +3 : Loyal is a huge plus. Being a fruit vendor is also a plus. Being 1-shot is a huge minus. And ninja practically defeats the purpose of the role by making it impossible for the fruit vendor to prove their claim if they get tracked. So, no, this isn't really a strong role. Oh I see, you want the claim to be proven AFTER death? Yeah, no, that's too risky/swingy and doesn't heavily increase the power factor.

1x Disloyal Ninja Babysitter = +5 : I don't see how this is really useful??? It can't be tracked --> How are you supposed to be able to tell if your action succeeded or not? Best case scenario is that it acts like a 1-shot vigilante of sorts, but even then, the role isn't that strong. Actually, removing disloyal from this makes this quite stronger due to the existence of an IC.

1x Town JOAT (Commuter, Cop, Disloyal Vigilante) = +7 : Okay, this is a pretty strong role. The major caveat though is that you only get two investigative shots, which really isn't that much in a game that seems to lack a vigilante.

2x Town Multitasking JOAT (Bodyguard, Jailkeeper, Motion Detector, Roleblocker, Tracker, Voyeur) = 2 * (0.5 + 6 + 0.5 + 4 + 3 + 1) / 6 - 2 + 0.5 = +3.5 : The role itself isn't all that weak. It's fairly strong, or at least some aspects are. The issue lies in that you have

two

three of them in the game. Town will lynch at least one of the claims, and most likely a town one the first time. Since the odds of there being 3 town duplicates of such a bizarre role like this, town will likely lynch within this group a seccond time. That could go poorly for town.

1x Town Innocent Child = +4 : This is actually a pretty good role, but it is hampered by auto-reveal at game start. Making it activated increases power, but may weaken the babysitter if disloyal is removed.

1x Mafia Goon = 1 * -0.02 = -0.02

1x Mafia Informed = -4.5 : This is actually some pretty valuable information for mafia.

1x Mafia Multitasking JOAT (Bodyguard/Jailkeeper/Motion Detector/Roleblocker/Tracker/Voyeur) = -(0 + 7 + 0.2 + 7 + 4 + 0.2) / 6 + 1 - 0.8 = -2.86 : This is stronger than the town variant actually, but we still have the multiclaim issue, but this is partially prepared for by having an informed member. Multitasking is also stronger here due to factional kill. Overall, while long-run, this role is fairly weak, it is actually really strong when it's needed.

1x Mafia (1-Shot Ninja) Motion Detector = -2 : The motion detector part isn't really great. They'll probably save the ninja shot for when they need it and ignore the motion detector part until then. Ninja though really isn't useful in this setup.

Town Power: 0.16 + 1 + 3 + 5 + 7 + 3.5 + 4 = 23.66
Scum Power: -0.02 - 4.5 - 2.86 - 2 = -9.38
Setup Power: -26
Adjustment Factor: +1.5
Total: -10.22

* - Note that all the values used here are somewhat arbitrary.

So, no, I don't really consider this setup all that close to balance. Town has like only one solid role, and a few moderate roles that are hampered by play shenigans. Meanwhile, scum obviously have way too much power and the motion detector ought to go for starters.

I'll pass the setup if all the following happen:
1. Disloyal OR Ninja is removed from the Babysitter. Both increase the babysitter's utility.
2. Ninja is removed from the town fruit vendor. It's just better off without it, and it leads to simpler gameplay.
3. The Fruit Vendor gains another shot.
4. You either drop or replace the N9 vigilante N9 bulletproof. It's too swingy and seems like a gimmick too be honest. Any power role or VT would probably do here, just something less gimicky and more practical.
5. You replace the mafia motion detector with a goon. Mafia doesn't need the extra power.

Further suggestions that are not binding:
1. You give the fruit vendor two more rather than one more shot.
2. You replace the second town multitasking JOAT with something else, preferably less complicated but not necessarily powerless.

I would like to point out mafia absolutely does not need a counter to everything, and you can't just cripple town with a bunch of weak roles and expect them to do fine.

Posted: **Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:59 am**

8

Vanilla Townie

Spoiler:

1

Mafia Goon

Spoiler:

1

Town Night 2+3 Rolestopper

Spoiler:

1

Town Loyal 3-shot Fruit Vendor

Spoiler:

1

Town Ascetic Disloyal Ninja Babysitter

Spoiler:

1

Town JOAT(Commuter/Cop/Disloyal Vigilante)

Spoiler:

2

Town Multitasking JOAT(Bodyguard/Jailkeeper/Motion Detector/Roleblocker/Tracker/Voyeur)

Spoiler:

1

Town Innocent Child

Spoiler:

1

Mafia Informed

Spoiler:

1

Mafia Multitasking JOAT(Bodyguard/Jailkeeper/Motion Detector/Roleblocker/Tracker/Voyeur)

Spoiler:

1

Mafia Night 1 Motion Detector

Spoiler:

Note: The purpose of the Disloyal Babysitter is not to confirm Mafia or protect town. It has one single job. Find Mafia, look towny, die, and take a mafia with you. As such I'd rather like the Ascetic to stay, however, now that I think of it. It makes the role more powerful.
I have nerfed the MD of Mafia to Night 1 to send Mafia, potentially, towards a false trail...
instead of confirming the JOAT as having equivalents, and given the fruit vendor the maximum shots I am ok with. I think loading any more investigative town power is a recipe for disaster. It is enough as is. As such, I have replaced the N9BPN9Vig with a far more powerful N2+3 Rolestopper; still limited to malleate protective loops; but very powerful because of its synergy with the IC. This is absolutely the maximum investigative power I can give town; 5 investigations can clear town outright, and with the trackers and the IC we will get 7 cleared town by circumstances on average, and a potential Mafia kill without any chance for Mafia to prevent it, if the Ascetic is presumed town, really powerful.

Posted: **Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:15 am**

I think I'd pass this.

I'll look at wording tomorrow.

Posted: **Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:55 pm**

Ummm, why do I have access here? I followed the link in the PM because I was assuming someone wanted an opinion on something, but you've got two competent reviewers who seem to have things well in hand.

Posted: **Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:24 pm**

Not Known 15 said he wanted you to have access as the backup mod.

Posted: **Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:37 pm**

OH RIGHT

I totally forgot about that, they asked a while back. Yeah, sounds good.

Posted: **Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:47 pm**

In post 8, Ircher wrote:I think I'd pass this.

I'll look at wording tomorrow.

You don't think that this has too much mechanical town confirmation?
After taking a night to think about it I don't feel really good with this amount of confirmation myself.

Posted: **Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:08 am**

No, not really. You saw my setup from last time--it had a lot of town clears. This one has less imo. If you are still wirried, I'd still pass it if the fruit vendor is 2-shot.

Posted: **Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:14 am**

Issues:

Fruit Vendor says 3-shot but role pm says 2-shot.
Innocent Child needs to specify that the confirmation happens at the game's beginning (for clarity).

Posted: **Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:40 am**

8

Vanilla Townie

Spoiler:

1

Mafia Goon

Spoiler:

1

Town Night 2+3 Rolestopper

Spoiler:

1

Town Loyal 2-shot Fruit Vendor

Spoiler:

1

Town Ascetic Disloyal Ninja Babysitter

Spoiler:

1

Town JOAT(Commuter/Cop/Disloyal Vigilante)

Spoiler:

2

Town Multitasking JOAT(Bodyguard/Jailkeeper/Motion Detector/Roleblocker/Tracker/Voyeur)

Spoiler:

1

Town Innocent Child

Spoiler:

1

Mafia Informed

Spoiler:

1

Mafia Multitasking JOAT(Bodyguard/Jailkeeper/Motion Detector/Roleblocker/Tracker/Voyeur)

Spoiler:

1

Mafia Night 1 Motion Detector

Spoiler:

Posted: **Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:38 am**

/pass.

Posted: **Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:39 am**

I love the ridiculous level of complexity

Posted: **Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:18 am**

I forgot to clarify and ask something. Meant to, then forgot.
The Voyeur gets its results from this table:
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ormal_Game
Under this guideline we have the new things missing, including Fruit Vendor and Babysitter.
Now, previously that wasn't a problem, because both were Ninjas and would not be detected.
This changed, and I now need a categorization of the Fruit Vendor(the Babysitter is still a Ninja).

Posted: **Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:03 pm**

In post 17, Pine wrote:I love the ridiculous level of complexity

welcome to the new NRG

Posted: **Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:28 pm**

In post 0, implosion wrote:Not Known 15 wrote:
This is the setup.
If you dont have standardized rules yet I can give you rules, too.

what about this?

Posted: **Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:46 am**

In post 17, Pine wrote:I love the ridiculous level of complexity

I'm going to say that while I'm passing this setup, I still think this setup is a bit complex compared to what's normally normal.

Pretty sure Fruit Vendor is either Miscellaneous or Informative --- Radiant or Implosion?

Babysitter I believe counts as protective.

As for rules, they aren't standardized, so technically, I'm supposed to see them.

Posted: **Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:48 am**

I don't think it matters which category fruit vendor is in? What interaction in this setup can't be resolved by the golden rule (pick an action that can't be affected by anything else and resolve it)?

That list of types of actions is only needed when the golden rule fails, e.g. a jailkeeper and a roleblocker targeting each other, which is extremely rare.

Posted: **Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:53 am**

Follower/Voyeur give the category not the actual action, so it does matter.

Posted: **Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:35 am**

In post 23, Ircher wrote:Follower/Voyeur give the category not the actual action, so it does matter.

Indeed, and the JOAT has a Voyeur shot.
Originally both new roles were Ninja(and a Ninja doesn't exist for Voyeur purposes).
And...

RULES.

Not Known 15 wrote:Welcome to my Large Normal.

Rules:
1.Follow the Site Rules. This includes not talking about ongoing games.
2.You may have access to private threads (e.g. Mafia factional chat); you can talk about this game there, but you may not quote anything there here. You may not quote any game-related PMs without express permission by your game mod.
3.Play to win this game.
4.Lurking: You will be prodded after 36 hours of no substantial contribution(no prod dodging). After 24 hours of an unanswered prod I will search for a replacement(unless V/LA). Four prods in total, or two prods in one day will result in an instant replacement. ASK FOR REPLACEMENT AND V/LA IN A PM.
5.Vacation/Limited Access: Tell me when you are going to have limited access. If you have limited access, you will still get a prod after 2 days, and you will be instantly replaced after 5 days in total.
6.Weekend: For the purposes of prods and nights, Sunday and Saturday count as 12 hours each.
7.CHEATING:Cheating(breaking site rules, posting while dead, quoting Role PM's without explicit permission, encrypting posts without explicit permission, editing/deleting posts without explicit permission) is forbidden. Don't do it.
Setup information:

8.Length of day phases: Day 1: 14 days
Day 2: 10 days
Day 3+: 7 days
9.Length of nights: 2 days

10. Lynching:A lynch necessiates more than 50% of all possible votes. You may vote for No Lynch. A No Lynch needs 50% of all possible votes.

11:Hammer:As soon as the required number of people for a Lynch or NoLynch is reached, the game descends into Twilight.
12:Twilight:Alive people, including the hammered lynch target, may continue to post until the flip.
13:Flip: After the flip, if there is no one to replace, the game descends into Night.
If there is a replacement, the game will be locked(do not post). The game descends into Night after the lynch.
14:Daychat: Every evil faction has daychat.
15:Natural Action Resolution applies. Same priority cycles are resolved by making all actions of the same priority fail(e.g.Roleblocker vs Roleblocker, only both roleblocks fail).
16:Color and Vanilla Role PM:

Vanilla TownieAbilities:
You have no abilities other than your voice and your vote.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive(or nothing can prevent the same).

This is my color
#BF8080). Do not use it.
17:Breaking rules can result in any kind of punishment. Do not break the rules.
In addition to what I asked you to provide you in your confirmation elsewhere you must add"People often forget to read the rules".
18:I may add additional rules at my discretion. I will tell everyone via PM if this happens.

Mafiascum.net

Not Known 15's Large Normal Review, September 2018

Not Known 15's Large Normal Review, September 2018