Mini Normal 2041 [Game Over]

[Sephiroth]

BECAUSE YOURE IN IT WITH ME HOMIE

[Sephiroth]

There are three players from survivormeet II in this game and gamma is the sneakiest of the three so VOTE: gamma

[Sephiroth]

Disclaimer: Seph, PP and Radja are exempted from the duties described above. Seph has a short temper and I don't wish to upset him. Radja hasn't played me enough yet (neither did Seph, but his experience with me was most recent). PP -of course- runs the two most important queue threads on the planet and I don't want him missing me signing up to a game by mere chance.

I'm not sure that I have a short temper in a general sense, but if you plan on being purposefully obtuse throughout this game like you did last game then sure.

I'm excited for another game of you doing anti-town things then acting like you are the literal christ returned to the rest of the players in the game

[Sephiroth]

VOTE: DVa

also this is hilarious

[Sephiroth]

Unrelated but I keep thinking your avatar is gollum and getting disappointed that it isn't

[Sephiroth]

I by far enjoy playing scum more than town. I try to keep my scum and town game similar, employing a poke and prod style as both and throwing my vote around to a lot of different wagons trying to generate discussion. I'm more likely to lurk and flake out as town historically but I feel like I've fixed that recently by actively challenging myself to improve at that aspect of my game.

[Sephiroth]

I’m not Gammagooey

o.

Well I'm gonna leave my vote for having a survivor title and having almost the same name as him.

[Sephiroth]

I by far enjoy playing scum more than town. I try to keep my scum and town game similar, employing a poke and prod style as both and throwing my vote around to a lot of different wagons trying to generate discussion. I'm more likely to lurk and flake out as town historically but I feel like I've fixed that recently by actively challenging myself to improve at that aspect of my game.

What do you mean by "a poke and prod" style?

I pick up on something someone posts, and I ask little questions about it, testing whether it seems like they're being truthful or not. Then I push on things if they don't smell right or the person seems like they're BSing. Read my play in mini 2038 (just finished) for an idea of what I mean by poking and prodding.

[Sephiroth]

what's that list above, Oka?

Doesn't really matter, why do you ask?

It kinda does, because it makes no sense unless you explain it?

I'll explain it when I think it's relevant?

Why do you need to know what it means?

VOTE: nako

[Sephiroth]

Oh whoops. That quoting is entirely unrelated to that vote. Misclicked at some point I guess

[Sephiroth]

Why did you nakedly vote me?

Partially because I wanted a wagon to form and partially because I thought naked vote nako sounded funny in my head.

[Sephiroth]

Can someone explain to me the 'kokichi is a liability' thing?

I think the numbers from oka are completely NAI. Its not hard to throw some numbers up as scum if you're being so vague about it. Not sure why anyone is tr-ing him for that.

[Sephiroth]

Is it really over that post that was pretty obviously a joke? Are we serious right now?

[Sephiroth]

Would you be willing to use my username instead of your nickname? I know its a thing you like to do but it bothers me

[Sephiroth]

Just seph is fine also. That way you can still in your head say sephora.

[Sephiroth]

I'm here.

Town pile: { Tchill, Radja, Kokichi, Joey }

Null Pile: { BEF, PP, A50, nako }

Scummy Pile: { okapoka, drdoolittle, dva }

No reason to put the -1 on unless Drdoolittle doesnt post tonight as promised so VOTE: okapoka[/b] instead.

[Sephiroth]

whoops.

VOTE: okapoka

[Sephiroth]

I will be V/LA until Tuesday.

I will still try to post but I will be attending my sister's wedding and also need to take part in the dress rehearsal.

[Sephiroth]

VOTE: dva

Good stuff okapoka. Although I believe Nako is just as likely to be scum due to just outright lack of effort in his posts tbh.

I'm not sure what about okapokas vote is good stuff...his justification seemed completely NAI to me. Can you elaborate on what was good about Okas reasoning here?

[Sephiroth]

Gamma: Sorry I missed you in my reads. You are in my null pile with town pile upside.

[Sephiroth]

I think BEF looks pretty damn town by comparison to my last game with him. Could be NAI but I don't get scum vibes from him.

[Sephiroth]

I will reread and post my thoughts tomorrow evening.

[Sephiroth]

Sorry for no post last night, was too tired to do anything after my 6 hour drive. Promise to really get caught up tonight.

[Sephiroth]

Implying good scum don't active lurk when presented the opportunity? Lol.

[Sephiroth]

A little bit, yeah, considering I've been posting but not contributing to the discussion since yesterday evening. But also I was still V/LA last night and now I'm at work. Its more like, I just don't think your reason for townreading me makes much sense. Good scum play isn't always pretty, its about winning the game. I think your definition of 'good scum play' is rigid and my scum game could very much include how I'm playing here. Its just noteworthy because its possible you're trying to white knight me. It seemed especially out of place since you seemed to have a sense of urgency to asking me to post as if I'm under pressure when I'm under none.

[Sephiroth]

Active lurking: Posting without content. You've been explicitly VLA and then have yet to post anything meaningful after that.

I feel like this answers the question pretty thoroughly, no?

[Sephiroth]

Well again, I've been V/LA for a long time. I was posting fairly regularly before that happened, unless I'm getting my wires crossed here.

[Sephiroth]

Reread is in progress, as is biting my nails watching election results. I'm on page 19ish right now.

[Sephiroth]

{ Kokichi, Joey }
Gamma
dva, mew/radja, okapoka, almost50, drdoolittle
PP, TChill, BEF, Nako

[Sephiroth]

I'm not sure I understand the most reasoning behind the start of current PP wagon but I'm okay joining it.

VOTE: PP

[Sephiroth]

What an interesting list.

You believe that I am hard townreading one scum buddy, voting another, and that one more potential is bussing me.

How do you think read lists work? Because that isn't how my read lists work. My 4 top srs on D1 are under no requirement of being scum together. In fact my reads change quite a bit come D2 most of the time.

Why am I scum?

Oh that's -1,

unvote

poe. I don't think you've been doing anything to move the game forward in recent memory whereas the other slots have done more or made posts that ping me as town. I don't think the reaction to your wagon of just posting images helps your case. Not that it hurts it.

I don't understand the start of your wagon because I don't know your meta. Like the whole explaining vs saying reexplain thing seems kind of arbitrary but those who do have your meta feel it pretty strongly.

[Sephiroth]

Oh wait no its not VOTE: PP

[Sephiroth]

I'm voting you because you're the current wagon and I wagoning is always a good thing to do

[Sephiroth]

I think*

[Sephiroth]

Like, should I create a counterwagon against one of my srs for a random different one? I'm not sure why anyone would actively undermine a wagon on a sr. I'm not sure what about this is hard to understand.

[Sephiroth]

Yeah I should have waited for you to post again my b.

[Sephiroth]

Man this game is all the fuck over the place I love it.

I do think that post from A50 was pretty rolefishy but now we actually do have intent so now I no longer disagree

[Sephiroth]

That is a good point.

[Sephiroth]

The more I think about it the more 988 bothers me.

[Sephiroth]

I also find seph post ungenuine tone wise

I get that a lot.

[Sephiroth]

He's not at -1 anymore doe.

[Sephiroth]

I think the way you aproached penguin, the wagon and his reaction all coherent with a scum mentality and wincon

weird fetish but ok

[Sephiroth]

Why should I value a clear's opinion if it contradicts my role PM?

[Sephiroth]

I did catch up. And I posted my read list. You're wrong about my entrance and vote.

Is that what you wanted me to say? Like I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do other than dismiss a read that I know is wrong and doesn't make any specific accusations as to what shows scum mentality and wincon. I think you're tunneling me because you don't like my tone and don't understand my meta. So I'm just going to ignore it until you wise up.

[Sephiroth]

On the other hand, I have witnessed a LOT of games where we ended up lynching scum by being active and aggressive way before the dead line. You know deadlines were meant to be as "if necessary" and not "must use" kind of thing.

People do tend to forget this.

[Sephiroth]

Indeed, im a tone reader and i might be biased. The reason why i havent been precise is because im on my cell

That's fair but you should understand why I might dismiss your initial post *shrug*

[Sephiroth]

to justify a pp vote even though he is making it clear he isn't paying much attention

The thing is I don't see that as AI given tchills established view of D1.

[Sephiroth]

Like I 100% agree with him that 40 pages is too fucking long for D1

[Sephiroth]

can you link me some tchill town games where he doesnt read the thread

No, I don't really feel like looking and my sr on him comes mostly from the way he started coasting about ~10 ISO posts ago. I'm just saying his desire to end D1 in a general sense is something I see town!tchill doing given what I know about his feelings towards D1. It gives me weird vibes that Nako used that post as justification to place their vote bc I disagree completely.

[Sephiroth]

I just want the highest chance of flipping scum D1, I couldn't give a hoot about associatives or meeting some quota of lynching somebody everyone else scumreads but yes that's why I said Seph is mayyybe not the best idea to push rn because there's just not enough content there to analyse after flip

If there's not enough content to analyze after flip, how the hell is there enough content to consider me the best chance at hitting scum today? I was here for like 15 pages then missed 25 on v/la.

[Sephiroth]

The tchill wagon was actually pretty bad. The justification of 'hes not going to play the game' is completely ignoring that his meta is to not do shit til D2, when he becomes pretty easily sortable.

[Sephiroth]

Speed and counterwagon
Though the composition actually looks alright
Idk what deadline has to do with it

I'm not so sure now. My top 2 scum reads are on my 3rd scum read's wagon. Maybe they are trying to help PP.
I don't know, but maybe a little L-1 can push us along further.

VOTE: PenguinPower

Blatant rolefishing + trying too hard to be consistent. BEF is scum.

Are you serious? How is this possibly role fishing compared to A50s 988? Especially when you consider he keeps reiterating that he thinks PP is a common mislynch and keeps saying lets get a claim so we can NOT lynch you? This random post from BEF is what you decide is blatant rolefishing? lolwut?

[Sephiroth]

@Seph: Are you scum in this game, bud? What even??

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Your post 988 was clearly rolefishing especially since you implied the entire time you 'just wanted to clear his slot and move on'. Trying to get a claim with that belief is 100% rolefishing. What BEF said was much less rolefishy and Nako's vote makes no sense if you look at the context of BEfs post and your post. Care to elaborate? Because at the moment it seems like you're trying v hard to buddy me and then periodically getting suspicious when I don't do exactly what you want/expect. Your indignation makes no sense given how clearly you were rolefishing and your stated reason for doing so.

[Sephiroth]

VOTE: BEF

Let's not split the votes PLEASE. We need to get a serious wagon going, and even the PP wagon (whom I believe is Town) doesn't look serious enough.

@Seph: We're going to have yet another post-game conversation I guess.. unless you ARE scum (because then I will understand your play).

I will be impressed if anyone ever understands my play because I actually don't understand my play. Has more to do with my day to day head state than anything else. Can you explain what makes Tchill scum, or explain why it made sense to try and drag a claim from someone you thought and currently think is town? Like please stop acting detached from what I'm asking you, answer the questions rather than trying to address my meta please. We can have that convo after the game, I want us to have a game related convo now. Is that possible?

[Sephiroth]

Tchill is a bad lynch for today.

[Sephiroth]

@Seph: Seriously now, what IS the purpose of your vote on PP? You don't want him to claim, and you don't want to move off him. You do agree that we don't have to use the full deadline, but you won't do anything to change the fact that we are indeed exhausting all the time we have for no good reason and with no real revenue. What's your plan here? Are you hoping for a lol!hammer w.o. a claim, so you can accuse the poor player who inadvertently placed it of being scum, perhaps? Or maybe you are waiting for a scum partner to lay the hammer and then you will protect them by saying they didn't realize it was hammer and still accuse >me< of rolefishing???

See? too many possibilities, none of them is good. And you're not even explaining your stance (about being on PP wagon but not wanting him to claim). So I ask again: WHAT is the purpose of your vote being on PP??

@PP: Intent to bloody HAMMER. CLAIM PLEASE.

Wagons are good for information and he's one of my scum reads. I don't need any further reason to have my vote on him and I don't think any of the conjecture you threw at the wall above changes that for me. I agree that we don't have to use the full deadline but that doesn't mean I want to do what you are doing, which appears to be trying to rush any wagon towards a claim even if you think the player is town. You know damn well its anti town as fuck to be calling intent to hammer and demanding a claim from one of your town reads. The fact that you need to paint this as black and white, like we can only lynch someone immediately or we can wait til the end of deadline and get a lolhammer is absurd. Is there no world in which you think its possible for an organic lynch to appear within the four days we have remaining? Is there no world in which the wagon on PP actually gives us valid information about other slots, outside of demanding a premature claim? Stop trying to paint this as a dichotomy between deadline lynch and lolhammer. Thats just not reality and you know it.

My point is that YOUR stance is extremely scummy since you consider him to be town. Why do you want to force a claim from someone you think is town? Why would you vote him and give intent to hammer if you think he is town rather than trying to move us towards a different wagon WITHOUT him claiming? There is no world in which your stance towards PP and his wagon comes from a town mindset.

[Sephiroth]

And further, why does Nako view BEFs vote as rolefishing but say nothing about your very prominent rolefishing? I would at least like Nako to acknowledge the question and say whether they do or don't agree that you are blatantly rolefishing much worse than BEF is.

[Sephiroth]

unvote

A50s anger here is fake. He spent like 6 posts answering my one and then each one he got progressively more upset over what's a very reasonable post. I'm perfectly happy to not interact with you anymore because you're throwing a temper tantrum over nothing right now.

VOTE: A50

[Sephiroth]

Like I literally IMMEDIATELY answered why I'm voting PP. It was the literal first sentence in my reply. You're either very blind or, as I said, faking this whole episode.

[Sephiroth]

And its unfathomably stupid to say you consider someone town then literally become the force behind forcing them to claim. The only reason YOUR town read was anywhere close to being lynched or needing to claim was YOUR choice to vote them and state intent. There is no town motivation to do that rather than argue against the wagon or start a counter one. You're not town this game, sorry.

[Sephiroth]

well agree to disagree. I'm familiar with AP anger and although they try to differentiate their play I don't think they do it as well as they would like. That anger is performative, that's he needed roughly 15000 posts to address 1.

[Sephiroth]

Did I or did I not say agree to disagree? Its 100% performative but I'm happy to let Gamma think something different based on their anecdotal experience specifically with you.

[Sephiroth]

I will literally never cave to an appeal to authority on meta. You could play hundreds of games with someone and still be completely fucking wrong about them on any given day. I know performative anger when I see it. Maybe I'm wrong and you're town overstating your anger here but I know you're not being genuine in the way you're responding to my positions, and that is always going to be enough for you to fail my smell test on D1.

[Sephiroth]

And its really interesting to hear you say that since just a second ago you were making claims about knowing my play and suddenly needing to reevaluate. You literally were just giving credence to a 1 game meta in your last fucking breath. Gimme a break dude.

[Sephiroth]

If you are that angry over this exchange I am actually kind of concerned that you take this game too seriously and maybe you should take a break or cut down your number of games.

[Sephiroth]

Like I've totally been enraged by mafia but position is really not unreasonable, it seems like you feel like I've disrespected you by disagreeing which is like, why the fuck would I agree with you? We established last game that I find your general way of playing to be anti-town as hell.

[Sephiroth]

And at the end of the day my vote for you has more to do with you lacking any reasonable pro-town reason to try to get PP to claim there given that you town read him. The performative anger when I scumread you for it is just icing.

[Sephiroth]

Do you not consider Gamma's push legit? Thats what I felt you implied when you acknowledged the point about explaining yourself, but was that kind of a joke?

[Sephiroth]

Or is the gamma read independent of the push?

[Sephiroth]

What makes you think my vote isn’t serious

Apart from my love of gifs, why is your vote serious?

The meta point against you felt semi-valid, plus you reacted like typical caught scum when you saw that point (hence why the gifs/pics are a scum thing)

Just curious, what about it seems 'caught scum' instead of 'ignoring the wagon bc it doesnt seem that serious'? I read it as the second more than anything else which to me is NAI.

[Sephiroth]

^^ also related to why I think that A50 is scummy AF for trying to draw a claim from that wagon prematurely. He literally MADE it a situation where a claim was likely when it was initially not (and no longer is) a very serious chance of lynching.

[Sephiroth]

Not for nothin PP but I can see how gamma would get that idea from your reaction to the wagon. I kind of remember it that way as well but maybe you were just posting more after not posting for a while.

[Sephiroth]

By that way I mean an influx of gifs.

[Sephiroth]

Yeah no I get that. I'm just saying its feasible to misremember your response as posting more gifs suddenly.

[Sephiroth]

Okay here's where I am right now...

---

Townreads:

Kokichi
Joey
--
Gamma
PP
Mew

Can't sort:

Okapoka
Dva
DrDooLittle

Scumreads:

BEF
Tchill
Nako
A50

I town read Kokichi and Joey for obvious reasons, I town read both gamma and PP now based on thinking their exchange over the last few pages is TvT. I also liked PPs part of our exchange when I voted him. Maybe he slightly buddied me but I'm willing to figure that out D2. I don't have any strong reason to town read Mew but they are activ, look to be sorting, and I generally find their logic to be solid so definitely better than null.

Can't really sort Dva or okapoka. Between the two of them I feel slightly worse about dva based on our interaction when I came out of V/LA, it just seemed like a pointless thing to push me on especially once I admitted to not having caught up yet. I view them both as making arguments I strongly disagree with often, but I can see it coming from a real place

most

of the time.
I'm a little frustrated about DDL pretty much coasting. I don't think 855 was that good honestly. I'm okay with them in the null pile for now since we already wagoned him and nothing really came of it but he is the closest of these 3 to being a scumlean.

Nako is posting frequently enough but not engaging with the game beyond surface level imo (is that their meta?). This coincides with her completely inexplicable choice to vote BEF for rolefishing in the face of A50's much more blatant rolefishing (fishing against someone he called a tr) I don't think BEF's level of engagement with the game is particularly different from the last game we played in which he was correctly called as scum based on this meta. Also don't feel too bad lynching him generally has he hasn't made much effort to solve the game imo. A50 I feel like I've discussed plenty, but mostly because the only thing they could think of to stop a wagon on their tr was to add their vote, give intent, and ask for a claim. Don't see any town mindset there. Tchill would be a compromise lynch for me bc while I have a scum lean from some of his more coasty posts I feel confident that he will actually play D2 and become more readable then. Desire to end day at 40 pages I consider NAI for him.

[Sephiroth]

can you point me to which posts you're talking about here?

Fuck no I can't. I think you may know why. Let's not speak of this again...

[Sephiroth]

I asked if it was your meta, not said it was your meta.

[Sephiroth]

Thanks!

[Sephiroth]

Man, you really don't like me scumreading you huh.

[Sephiroth]

It seems like you're having trouble grasping how d1 scumreads don't need to make sense from an associative standpoint. I reevaluate after the flip. I don't give a fuck if one of my scumreads votes another one of my scumreads lol

[Sephiroth]

It seems like someone who plays as often as you would know this and not try to make such a bs defense =/

[Sephiroth]

Also you are scumreading me but at the same time you called this my meta haha.

Can we talk about this blatant misrep nako?

[Sephiroth]

gif incoming in 3...2...

[Sephiroth]

That's my meta btw.

Well i wasn't really asking you but fair enough. I'm more concerned with ignoring A50's rolefish to attack what was arguably not even a rolefish by BEF and placing your vote there.

[Sephiroth]

I also wanna say that I used to think PP was a lazy person, but posting gifs is not that easy. Kudos to PP.

hot take, anything seems hard by comparison to lurking and NO U-ing anyone who scum reads you.

[Sephiroth]

wait can someone give me a tldr on why PP is scum other than too many gifs. I waded through pages and pages and realized I never got a case.

Gamma lead the charge based on some meta about not explaining himself or something. I didn't really take it seriously I just wanted a PP wagon at the time.

[Sephiroth]

I scum read PP on poe at the time which was why I joined the wagon. I acknowledged when I made my vote that I didn't understand the reason his wagon started, and was questioned by PP about this when I did vote him. This interaction with PP is what started me to lean town on him. Feel free to find all this in my ISO.

[Sephiroth]

@nako ^^

[Sephiroth]

bro I've been voting A50 since 1141 what are you smoking

[Sephiroth]

I don't think his response to being wagoned was AI. But his interactions with me, particularly his ability to acknowledge and back off his initial inquiry into my reasons for voting him, struck me as something town would do in that situation more than scum. I also felt that his posts were genuine from a tone/gut level.

[Sephiroth]

I really hope that you follow that up with something that matters or a strong argument.

[Sephiroth]

So that's a no, then.

[Sephiroth]

Do you still want to lynch PP, Dva?

[Sephiroth]

Oka just shut up and let the people trying to do something do something okay? okay.

@dva, I disagree completely that he was misrepping tchills meta, and I think thats a weak reason to lynch him. Who is your next highest scum read?

[Sephiroth]

>Tyrion is not really playing to his town meta imo, and if he is, then he should be lynched so he starts playing d1s again. I would accept a mislynch on a town Tyrion based on his play here, and I would be pissed if he was scum and we gave him a free pass.

Imo this is his town meta stretched to the point of absurdity. Its par for the course for him to be low engagement and not really care about D1 but this is certainly I think beyond his norm. Its also why I don't think PP is misrepping Tyrion's meta, though I will grant that he's being more forgiving than I think is actually backed up by chills post history.

I'll read those games really quick. I'm pretty confident that PP is town at this point but I don't have any meta on him.

[Sephiroth]

Yeah, I like this plan. By far our best chance at consensus, I think.

VOTE: BEF

[Sephiroth]

Also, Dva, I honestly think that PP's initial response to me voting him showed a bit of that aggressive counterpush until he realized that my reasons made sense and weren't actually very serious. I'm not sure I think there was any real threat of him being the lynch, and I think he shows his aggression when he gets indignant at A50 asking him to claim. He also seems to think that Gamma's push wasn't very serious up until their most recent back and forth. I dunno, I think I see aggressive indignant PP enough here to say this particular meta point is NAI. Agree/Disagree?

[Sephiroth]

It seems like how I would respond if I didn't think a wagon really warranted a response because it wasn't that serious. It also seems like how I might respond if I wanted people to think I wasn't taking the wagon that seriously. Thus NAI. Now you go.

[Sephiroth]

I think he also seems less engages as scum out of the two you posted, so thats a point against in my books. Not definitive by any means, though.

[Sephiroth]

I have an idea for a 4-headed hydra with Sephiroth but I’d need two others to join

you do know you couldn't stop me from hydraing with you?

I'm honored to be included and would be happy to. I've never played a hydra before tho, just fair warning.

[Sephiroth]

It seems like how I would respond if I didn't think a wagon really warranted a response because it wasn't that serious. It also seems like how I might respond if I wanted people to think I wasn't taking the wagon that seriously. Thus NAI. Now you go.

I wasn’t asking about whether he thought it was serious, I can see your point there
I’m asking about what about his play looked like he was ignoring the wagon

I guess we're having a miscommunication in terminology. The above is what I meant by ignoring the wagon. Not like literally ignore it happening, just not really respond to it in a way that gives it any credence. Sorry if that was a confusing turn of phrase.

[Sephiroth]

I guess we're having a miscommunication in terminology. The above is what I meant by ignoring the wagon. Not like literally ignore it happening, just not really respond to it in a way that gives it any credence. Sorry if that was a confusing turn of phrase.

I should have said, acting like he doesn't care. Not ignoring.

[Sephiroth]

Oh, I was pre-posted. Twice!

Re PP:

Yes I see your point as well. I think the reaction itself is NAI but I tr him for other reasons. I tr you both atm. I'm still curious what gives you the whole caught scum vibe, though.

Re BEF:

Combination of a strong sense of this being his scum meta and also believing even if it isn't he won't contribute much as town. But really I'm fairly confident in this being his scum game after playing 2038 with him. Read Nics ISO and check his meta case on BEF, which was 100% spot on, and compare it to this game then to some other BEF town games. Its a pretty strong correlation.

[Sephiroth]

To BEF's credit his wife was expecting during our last game together so he's probably got a lot going on at the moment. That being said, its generally --

Town BEF: engages with game, posts reads, attempts to sort people. generally higher activity
Scum BEF: active lurks, actually lurks

[Sephiroth]

Tchill and BEF are both fine by me. I will not vote for PP today.

[Sephiroth]

I would rather not DrD but could be convinced.

[Sephiroth]

I'll give intent but I would prefer to wait for a claim at least a few hours.

[Sephiroth]

Hosting can be expensive.

[Sephiroth]

Its about the source. Get a better source for your gifs.

[Sephiroth]

Well sure, but its still customary to ask for claim before lynching.

My response to the claim depends on what it is and whether I think it makes sense.

[Sephiroth]

I'm also not gonna wait forever. If he still hasn't claimed by the time I've got home and cooked and ate my dinner I'll drop the hammer.

[Sephiroth]

I'm not sure I expect him to show up if he doesn't do so soon. Like alternatively he may get replaced which is like kind of ugh tbh. Replacement and another 20 pages or so for D1 doesn't sound fun.

[Sephiroth]

There's actually quite a bit of useful content, imo. Especially in the last 15 pages or so.

[Sephiroth]

I think you can understand that the degree to which you're lurking is worse than your usual. I understand your frustration but its also understandable that we don't want to let you just skip a day of the game cuz you don't like it or whatever.

[Sephiroth]

I would be into an Oka wagon.

[Sephiroth]

But I'm not sure if I'm gonna let the "I won't claim but lynching me = bad" slide

[Sephiroth]

Basically everything you've been doing or saying since 1239, and to a slighter extent since you started tunneling tchill and only tchill super hard.

[Sephiroth]

I dunno. I'm conflicted.

[Sephiroth]

oka: specifically I find the attempts to control the town when we had a good bit of day left feel out of place and like potentially scum knowing that either candidate is a mislynch. Like I literally had to tell you to shut up and let us do things, and the next few pages helped me sort several people. I don't understand your motivation for doing that as town there.

[Sephiroth]

Meh.

[Sephiroth]

oka: specifically I find the attempts to control the town when we had a good bit of day left feel out of place and like potentially scum knowing that either candidate is a mislynch. Like I literally had to tell you to shut up and let us do things, and the next few pages helped me sort several people. I don't understand your motivation for doing that as town there.

so you are into my wagon by operating under the assumption that these other wagons are town? you know something that we don't?

I think your push onto Tchill is scummy under the assumption that tchill is town, I thought that much was obvious. I feel like you're showing a weird focus on only lynching 1 of 2 people with no legit town reason to do so.

[Sephiroth]

Tchill placed his vote to replace -1. His vote was already on you.

But I don't completely buy you didn't know that tbh.

[Sephiroth]

Sorry, *oka* placed his vote.

[Sephiroth]

He's saying that he was spiteful enough to not full claim

[Sephiroth]

Not gonna lie I'm confused as fuck right now.

[Sephiroth]

Is he at -1 again?

[Sephiroth]

Yeah like honestly tchill your stance here is just not reasonable to me. Even if you're town you deserve to be lynched this game based on how you played.

[Sephiroth]

VOTE: tchill13

I'm done with this.

[Sephiroth]

Pretty sure I pre-hammered you bub.

[Sephiroth]

Meh. If that's true its your own fault you got lynched for walking back the claim initially.

[Sephiroth]

And doubling down on not being an investigative.

[Sephiroth]

I read like the five posts that tchill13 posted, and I'm ready to call high scum equity in {DVa, Nako, A50}. Kk thx

Thoughts on Oka tho

[Sephiroth]

1239, 1245

[Sephiroth]

My read on Dva is in the air I'm already sring nako tbh

[Sephiroth]

I think A50 pretty much always flips scum, so thats a good place to start

I like the way you think.

[Sephiroth]

More notes:

Don't do meta reads unless you have actually played with the person multiple times. Meta is easy to manipulate, watch out for people who flanderize their own meta.
There exists no such thing as an interaction or many interactions that can't be SvS. Wifom exists.
Don't hammer test ever.

Stop shitposting

, you degrade the quality of the entire game and let people get away with AtE rather than content.
preflip associations should not be attempted without mechanical clears.

[Sephiroth]

Also, truthfully, i fully expected one of us to die and not such a suboptimal kill. So the vg/save theory makes sens imo, people should claim their actions if relevant

That seems like a dangerous move imo

[Sephiroth]

I also don't think mass claim makes sense here tbh

[Sephiroth]

Yeah I dunno I don't really care about a wagon on me that seems like people are just like eh we need to wagon somebody. I'm looking hardest at A50 for his rolefishing on BEF yesterday and then Oka for his weird insistence that we need to settle down and lynch one of the two leading wagons (we had 5 days left) and both of those wagons flipped town.

[Sephiroth]

I really don't think Oka is playing very well at all and I don't understand where you get that sentiment based off his behavior at the end of the day yesterday. It was a mix of lurking, doing nothing, and actually complaining that people were still trying to develop reads.

I also don't really think the Dva townread is particularly well deserved. She made one kind of 'balanced' post and PP and everyone town read her for that but you could easily interpret that post as just being fencesitty. Why else could Dva only be good scum here, Joey?

[Sephiroth]

Also don't see Nako as town either, and I don't actually think its feasible that the BEF kill came from scum so I don't see why you would town read Nako based on the NK. His behavior yesterday was NAI at best and at worst he went on a crusade against me without even knowing where my vote was.

In my opinion, the scum pool is

{ A50, Nako, Oka } with a dark horse candidate of Dva.

I see Gamma as the only non-conf townread that I feel strongly about, but I also don't see PP as scum here. If he is, I'm upset at him for being lurky and lazy and coasting to a win. I still feel his reaction to my vote on his wagon yesterday is a strong town indicator.

[Sephiroth]

What the fuck is hypoclaiming and whats the point?

[Sephiroth]

Joey, I'm like very concerned at how all your reads are the opposite of mine. Are we reading the same game?

[Sephiroth]

A50 I care literally zero about your reads. You know this. Stop spamming the thread with useless quips.

[Sephiroth]

I cared about your reads earlier in the game, not sure why I would care about them now when they're so obviously based on nothing lol

[Sephiroth]

The only problem is thats how you always are so I can't independently sr you on how shit your reads are.

[Sephiroth]

I can't independently sr you

on how shit your reads are.

I literally said I scum read you based on your rolefishing yesterday. You're such a disingenuous piece of shit sometimes you know that? Like honestly the quote doctoring you just did goes beyond scum vs town, its literally just being a shitty person and shitty mafia player.

Get your shit together. For real.

[Sephiroth]

Like you commented on it. You know DAMN WELL what I meant and you know DAMN WELL that you just misrepped me for now reason.

[Sephiroth]

Like honestly A50/AP, you are the 'youtube comments' of mafia players.

[Sephiroth]

I'm not mad in a general sense, I'm just saying you're clearly disingenuous use of quote doctoring makes you completely unreliable as a source of information, and not worth arguing with since you live in the world of stupidity and in the absence of reason or good faith. Its like arguing in the youtube comments. Much like youtube comments I'm just going to ignore you the rest of the game.

[Sephiroth]

your*

[Sephiroth]

Can you not put me at -1 because our reads differ? Holy shit

[Sephiroth]

Thats not why I'm shading you, and I also never lurker, I was on V/LA the entirety of that time. I wasn't just lurking I was driving 14 hours and attending my sister's wedding. This narrative (started by A50 D1) is absolute trash.

[Sephiroth]

Hey people on useless wagons.

Cut the crap and vote someone that matters already. We have 50 pages of content and obviously your wagon isn't taking off with the given information so I'd either suggest you introduce new content or get behind a wagon that'll move the gamestate forward. All these arguments are getting circular and repetitive and they don't do much at all except give more opportunities at town cred grabbing. now i get if you want to stand up for your beliefs and push who you think is most scummy, but the fact that people aren't being exactly swayed to your position means that its not going to happen with the given gamestate and thus we need to move the game forward. vote someone that matters or actually make a strong argument.

thanks.

^^ This post, combined with both the leading wagons at the time flipping town, combined with it being 5 days prior to deadline, combined with your utter lack of attempts to scum hunt during the rest of that day phase, is why I am SCUMREADING you. Shade means a different thing entirely, you know that.

[Sephiroth]

Oka if it makes you feel better take out the 'lurking' and replace it with coasting or active lurking. I honestly do think you were lurking but thats not at all the bulk of my reason for suspecting you and your insistence on splitting hairs on that point and then try to WIFOM your way out of my real point reads poorly.


As for the quoted post, are you saying that you approve of A50 doctoring my quote to misrepresent me or are you saying its a mess to call someone out when they do that?

[Sephiroth]

I'm a toxic player historically, and I have a history with AP/A50 from our last game.

[Sephiroth]

I'm working on being less toxic but when someone purposefully cuts off part of my quote to misrep me when he even commented on my actual reason for sring him earlier, it makes me toxic.

Any other questions?

[Sephiroth]

When did I said I had a right to? You asked why, I answered. I even said I'm working on it. I really don't think my last exchange with A50 was that toxic compared to many of my older games.

[Sephiroth]

Like Oka wtf are you getting at? Do you toxicity is scummy or are you just trying to make me see jesus?

[Sephiroth]

Does it matter Iif I think toxicity is scummy ?

...you know we're playing a game of mafia right now right? This entire conversation is a waste of time and space unless you think toxicity is AI. So lets get it out on the table instead of going round in circles. Do you or do you not think that my 'toxicity' has any bearing on my alignment or anyone elses?

[Sephiroth]

My updated scum pool from D1 is:
{Oka, A50, DVa} and Nako as a faraway pick

this flips scum every time

The rest of this post never explains the above. Please do. Making a case on poe or mechanics is fine, but why does this flip scum every time?

[Sephiroth]

All three people in his PoE are town and his comment about Nako being a "faraway pick" is scummy af

That scum pool is identical to mine except you and Nako are swapped. Am I flipping scum every time?

What is with people just voting for people with different reads than them? How the fuck is that indicative of anything other than two people reading the game differently? Unless you can show in some way that these reads hint at being made up that isn't just 'different than mine' then I don't see how this is a valid reason to vote someone. Both you and Kokichi, I just don't understand. Its almost enough to make me doubt the masons since kokichi dropped me to -1 on just that. Seriously thats just lazy stupid reading.

[Sephiroth]

Its also worth noting that everyone started tring dva almost simultaneously on the basis of one post about PP, which imo could either be reasonable/balanced or fencesitty depending on how you look at it. I don't think theres any world in which Dva deserves to be townread.

[Sephiroth]

You're gonna lose a lot of games as town if you just try to lynch people whose reads don't match your own. I actually think you doing that makes sense from a town slot or scum slot based on what I've observed in your play.

[Sephiroth]

We're gonna need PP and DrD to start posting. I don't have a strong read on either slot and neither is making an effort to fix that. Its very possible we have lurker scum among those two slots.

[Sephiroth]

Also can one of the people townreading Nako tell me why? Where does that come from?

[Sephiroth]

Also Dva if you're gonna be willing to lynch someone because their scum reads are your town reads you better feel pretty strongly about those townreads and you better have an explanation for them being town. Why are those scum reads actually town?

[Sephiroth]

Does it matter Iif I think toxicity is scummy ?

...you know we're playing a game of mafia right now right? This entire conversation is a waste of time and space unless you think toxicity is AI. So lets get it out on the table instead of going round in circles. Do you or do you not think that my 'toxicity' has any bearing on my alignment or anyone elses?

[Sephiroth]

Does the second sentence not answer your question? Not sure what you're getting at. It is almost always relevant to have a sense of what players consider scumtells as it allows you to gauge the authenticity and plausibility of things they do throughout the game.

[Sephiroth]

So, I don't understand your opinions 99% of the time. But the difference between you and A50 is that you're not purposefully editing my quotes to knowingly and purposefully misrepresent things I say. The only reason I consider that behavior as NAI and not scummy is I saw AP act the same way in our last game together where he flipped town. So I feel like at this point AP/A50 just troll in a general sense and most things they say should either be disregarded or considered lacking any real substance.

I scumread you and disagree with a lot of things you've said, but I certainly don't feel like your opinions are meaningless like I do about A50.

[Sephiroth]

odds?

[Sephiroth]

I'm waiting for dva to explain her town reads, I don't think gamma is scum, and I have a town lean on PP but worry that its colored too much by one interaction.

[Sephiroth]

I don't have numbers for you I don't really work that way

[Sephiroth]

I'm kind of caught between scumreading and townreading mew. I feel a little bit buddied today but maybe he and I just think similarly.

[Sephiroth]

ok thx for that I need to digest it

[Sephiroth]

Down with oka wagon VOTE: okapoka

I need to think about the claims. I'm not gonna lie, I can 100% see A50 faking this gunsmith claim. He puts a shit town of prep into his meme-y posts and its totally within his scumrange to post this absurdly long breadcrumb just so he has it lined up for the fake claim later.

Mew, why did you wait so long to claim non-ascetic? Any reason you didn't say so almost immediately?

[Sephiroth]

In fact I'm surprised people are taking A50s claim this seriously.

[Sephiroth]

The claim was not voluntary.

It was forced.

How do you figure? Its more like he slowly softclaimed and then worked his way around to full claiming. I don't see any way in which you could say A50 was forced into claiming. He even acknowledges that it wasn't an optimal play and that he did it because he was annoyed at Dva nagging him. Prompted maybe but forced seems like an oddly inaccurate way of describing how that went down unless I'm just misreading things.

[Sephiroth]

I must be dumb because I still don't follow. I thought you claimed non-ascetic, and that you didn't claim anything until just recently. Still not understanding your 'ascetic claim' forcing A50 claim when you didn't claim ascetic...?

[Sephiroth]

I really hope the masons are masons and not just pulling a gambit. As has been noted they haven't really been shining stars of town play since claiming.

[Sephiroth]

Like I get where you're coming from but if they aren't actually masons and we do have a vig, you just fast laned us to losing the game with that strategy.

[Sephiroth]

Yo where the fuck is PP

[Sephiroth]

I feel like hes gonna flake out based on his claims of catching up yesterday and now nothing almost 2 full days later =/

[Sephiroth]

Dva how does your opinion of Oka as active and engaged gel with his posts at the end of the day yesterday and general lack of activity and engagement around that time? I personally don't see anything at all telling in that game you linked for him that should give you a non-scum read. The tone reads to me very similar to here.

As for A50, I don't see any reason in what you said to town read him. He has a meta, and its being a troll. I think all the shit you said for him is completely NAI and in no way a strong reason to hard town read him to the extent of scum reading people who town read him. Like even if you do truly believe in your heart of hearts that A50 is town here, I just don't see the expectation of other players sharing that read as a reasonable expectation. Same goes for Oka.

Those two reads being held strongly and in a way that is reasonable to expect from others is the only way that I see your response to Mew's list as genuine. Like if his read list was 3 obvtown players I would understand but if its 3 players that you consider obvtown for not obvious reasons than I honestly don't see where your suspicion comes from here.

I also don't think your focus on setup analysis at this point in the game fits within my sense of your meta so far, which seems to be much more focused on dayplay by default. It seems out of character for you to be throwing all this emphasis on solving the game design on D2.

[Sephiroth]

Also, I really don't like Nako's "Ha scum is bad" post regarding the BEF killed followed up almost immediately with requesting a massclaim. Lots of scum motivation to make those posts back to back if you happened to know for sure you didn't try to kill BEF.

I currently want to lynch within {Nako Oka Dva} pretty sure.

[Sephiroth]

I'm not.

[Sephiroth]

mews ISO gives me weird vibes tho =/

[Sephiroth]

Oka is obvscum =/

[Sephiroth]

@DVA

can you please answer this or at least the first part as it relates to Oka thanks.

Dva how does your opinion of Oka as active and engaged gel with his posts at the end of the day yesterday and general lack of activity and engagement around that time? I personally don't see anything at all telling in that game you linked for him that should give you a non-scum read. The tone reads to me very similar to here.

As for A50, I don't see any reason in what you said to town read him. He has a meta, and its being a troll. I think all the shit you said for him is completely NAI and in no way a strong reason to hard town read him to the extent of scum reading people who town read him. Like even if you do truly believe in your heart of hearts that A50 is town here, I just don't see the expectation of other players sharing that read as a reasonable expectation. Same goes for Oka.

Those two reads being held strongly and in a way that is reasonable to expect from others is the only way that I see your response to Mew's list as genuine. Like if his read list was 3 obvtown players I would understand but if its 3 players that you consider obvtown for not obvious reasons than I honestly don't see where your suspicion comes from here.

I also don't think your focus on setup analysis at this point in the game fits within my sense of your meta so far, which seems to be much more focused on dayplay by default. It seems out of character for you to be throwing all this emphasis on solving the game design on D2.

[Sephiroth]

Like if you townread someone based on activity/engagement that needs to change as that behavior changes. Oka sat out almost everything leading up to the end of D1, made some weird cryptic attempt to curtail all discussion or other wagons (basically completely shutting off any chance of PP or A50 wagon), and sheep the largest wagon til lynch (as long as it fits one of BEF/Tchill). How is that town read still intact after that?

[Sephiroth]

Ugh I get such bad vibes every time Mew sheeps me though.

[Sephiroth]

Because when I was voting Oka he was driving the game so it was wiser to vote the one I perceived as a danger to Town, now I’m just feeling more confident on PP

What makes you confident on PP?

[Sephiroth]

And further what do you mean by 'driving the game' specifically, and why is that protown?

[Sephiroth]

You can frame my stance on you however you like, but I don't like your ISO and feel buddied by you today. Also agree that your 'I'm gonna not talk much' post is contradictory. I don't see it as something town would say unless it were accompanied by some sort of pressure towards a specific inactive slot. 'keep setting up an easy intent to hammer on me like you did on tchill' is a very very specific interpretation of my play and one that kind of came out of left field. Where was that sentiment yesterday or earlier today? Why was I suddenly 'setting up an easy intent to hammer' yesterday?

[Sephiroth]

As I said, you're welcome to frame it however you want. Thats not what's happening though, and I've consistently not felt good about your slot for a while now. Basically you're scumreading me for not being sure about your alignment?

[Sephiroth]

Yikes is a great way to throw shade without engaging in the meat of what you're talking about. Funny that you decide to have a little outburst towards me after I've expressed suspicion from you buddying/sheeping me.

[Sephiroth]

Why exactly does this needs to be accompanied by a push on an inactive player when my word has little sway in terms of actually making a wagon rather than people WIFOMing whoever I vote (like you have been doing for the entire day phase).

Please explain how this isn't you just talking out of your ass. I haven't WIFOMd your votes at all, just said that I don't feel good about you sheeping me. Are you just going to start making shit up now?

[Sephiroth]

Actually why do you keep setting up an easy intent to hammer on me like you did on tchill >_>
UNVOTE:

Dude this is not seeking clarification. Its an implicit accusation of not only my behavior today, but also my behavior yesterday. Clarification would be asking me what my stance on you is. And the answer would probably sound like fencesitting because as I said I'm undecided on your slot. I have scum reads and then I also have you whose ISO feels gross and whose decision to sheep me today feels bad. If you truly were of the opinion that I was setting up an easy intent to hammer on tchill theres no fucking way you would be repeatedly sheeping me today.

[Sephiroth]

Also don't try to act like you aren't equally guilty of not committing. You claim to have a tr on me but when questioned about the strength by oka earlier in the day decided that out of a pool the scum was probably me and voted there. If you have a townread as you're claiming, or even if you're claiming that now you're switching off of that tr, that flip onto me when questioned by Oka makes no sense. You need to get your story straight, or stop fencesitting then turning around and calling me scum for the same.

[Sephiroth]

Maybe you could just acknowledge that this is currently a confusing game state and its perfectly reasonable for me to have scum reads but also feel wary about your slot given how you're sheeping and seeming to buddy me.