Mini Normal 2044: Game over!

[bji]

Hey ho. My goal this game is not to wall. It will be a challenge.

Clemency -- have you played with any other players in this game before?

[bji]

Did you like playing with Sash?

[bji]

So you liked the game or you liked Sash? Or both?

[bji]

Why are you acting so eager to talk but your answers to direct questions are so short?

[bji]

Pale Fire, by Vladimir Nabokov. If I were braver, I'd probably say Lolita though. But these days you can't really admit something like that.

Clemency, was Sash scum in your game with him?

[bji]

What does playing really well as town look like from your perspective?

[bji]

If you are not good as town, are you good as scum?

Which aspect of good town play are you specifically not good at? a) Being trustworthy, b) leading, or c) being aggressive towards anything that seems off?

[bji]

@everyone, what's your favourite book

Wheel of Time, by Robert Jordan.

The first paragraph of wikipedia on that title sounds interesting. Thanks for the tip.

Playing with you was fun too!

Do you think that Clemency has a weak town game?

[bji]

Do you think that Clemency has a weak town game?

This is my 7th game only, so take my word for it's worth. I don't see her play as weak, because those scums were really good in last game. In fact I've seen weak players and Clem is not one of them.

7 games since May? Wow you play alot. You must be playing more than one game at a time at that rate no?

This is my 7th game too I think, but I only play once or twice a year at most.

What about the scum play in your last game was really good?

[bji]

Clemency -- is your pronoun 'he' or 'she'? Does it matter to you?

[bji]

Not that it matters to anyone, but just for accuracy's sake, this is actually my 8th game. I just counted.

[bji]

Not that it matters to anyone, but just for accuracy's sake, this is actually my 8th game. I just counted.

Over what period of time? Games in one specific section of the forums?

Since December 2014 so about 4 years now.

I found that I enjoyed the more limited structure of smaller games with more well defined roles so I have stuck with that. I believe that aside from my newbie game, I have only played mini normal games.

Around the holiday season I get a hankering for Mafia for some reason. The season just reminds me of the game I guess since the first game I played was over Christmas break 2014.

Usually I get really enthusiastic about Mafia and play a game, then am reminded about the parts that usually suck (lurkers and people who just go awol and waiting for replacements, also people who get really insulting and terrible) and don't play for a long time again. Then the cycle repeats.

And here we are.

[bji]

Urgh ... resist urge to wall ... must resist ...

[bji]

come on lets get some activity going
i can't be the most active person here
that means

i have to lead
and leading is effort

hm, well, i meant that they had a clutch moment where they almost threw but then 180 saved the game but;

i guess playing well as town is simply being trustworthy and leading while being aggressive towards anything that seems off

i'm not very good at town myself

so i tend to play for self-preservation but

i'm looking to change that somewhat

If you are not good as town, are you good as scum?

wouldn't know, haven't gotten enough scum games in yet

Which aspect of good town play are you specifically not good at? a) Being trustworthy, b) leading, or c) being aggressive towards anything that seems off?

tempted to say all of the above but i'm gonna go with b

)

Anyone else notice the lack of coherency here?

Clemency first complains about potentially having to lead, then later says that he is looking to change his weak townie game, and then admits that leading is his worst townie trait.

Seems that if Clemency wanted to get better as townie and his worst townie trait was leadership, he wouldn't complain at the beginning about feeling like he has to lead. And if he was going to complain, it would probably be more along the lines of "i have to lead and leading is not my strong suit" than "i have to lead and leading is effort".

I hereby state that Clemency is scum playing a chatty opener.

VOTE: Clemency

[bji]

By the way according to my reading that's 3 votes for Clemency, so next vote puts him at L-1.

[bji]

OMGUS already, scum?

[bji]

I'm just a townie taking a leadership role while being aggressive towards anything that seems off ... why you voting for your top town read Clemency?

[bji]

sorry i'm just pissed off since this shit happens every game
i don't believe anything in rvs or near it is a scumtell ever

What shit happens every game?

Scumhunting? You might want to play a different game then ...

For what it's worth, I think that rvs is generally to be ignored but I have definitely seen chatty scum openers and called them in the past. In my limited experience it comes mostly from newbie scum though, those who haven't played scum much or ever and for whom the concept of having to open a game as scum leads to nervous chatter.

[bji]

Sash -- is this how you would expect a scummy Clemency to react? What about a townie Clemency?

yet you're so sure about it you're willing to put me to l-2

L-2 this early in the game is meaningless, no one is going to hammer you at this point. I pointed it out just so that no one makes the accidental mistake of hammering because that can happen when people are not vote counting carefully.

[bji]

If you are not scum, don't worry about it; there is alot of game left. I feel that we are going to be besties by the end of this.

[bji]

What about the scum play in your last game was really good?

what is the purpose of this question?

I believe that making scum explain scum behavior creates a difficult situation in their mind where they want to come off sounding honest but don't want to give away their techniques. So I think it's a useful question to ask to make scum uncomfortable, and making scum uncomfortable should be every townie's priority #1.

Now ... what was the purpose of you asking me what the purpose was of my question?

[bji]

garmr/skitter definitely town
clemency/bji/sashaddin prob town
VOTE: raya

Terrible entrance, non effort reads. Scum or worthless town, kill it either way.

UNVOTE: Clemency
VOTE: Irrelephant11

[bji]

aggressive

Do you disagree?

[bji]

I disagree
how about talking to me?

OK. Given that Raya and Garmr are bending over backwards to explain themselves to each other, why did you pick Raya as scum over Garmr? Those slots are looking very similar to me at the moment, I would like to know your justification in picking one not the other.

Also, why did you come in with a "oh hey look I'm not even paying attention I'm so casual" post and then one minute later quote a post that had occurred one minute before you got here?

I mean you're typing into a text box that would show the Garmr's post directly above it, yet you write a post a minute later saying 'lol handn't seen this yet' and apparently *something* in that post was enough to pull you to a vote on Raya?

Are you actually this lazy or are you just trying to pretend to be? I mean playing scum is hard, I know, I have done it before and it is a sh*t ton of work to do well. So I can see just throwing up your hands and deciding to play as a lazy incompetent doesn't bother to read anything townie as an easier way to try to slide through.

[bji]

The text box I typed into was on the first page (you know they have those on every page, right?) and then it brought me to my post on the last page, where garmr's post sat
then I read the game

I had the same thoughts as Garmr re:Raya involving herself in the early argument (mindmeld this early is reason enough to lightly townread garmr). raya's early play seemed like an easy way to get townread, by playing peacemaker, and I think her explanation since then has been overly long because she's making it up as she goes
that's my whole read on both of them
not sure why providing reads on almost the entire playerlist counts as "so lazy it deserves a lynch either way" (when there's, say, flubber who just *isn't playing* atm), so that's not a good look from you

Well those are interesting thoughts. I do not know what 'mindmeld' means though. Why did it take being challenged on your play before you divulged those thoughts?

OK so here is what I saw at first:

- You posted some fluff whose purpose I cannot fathom except to posture as not really caring about the game
- Then you immediately quote a Garmr/Raya36 interaction with another very casual 'lol hand't seen this yet' comment
- Then you post a fairly safe read list that just kind of echoes common sentiment
- Then you vote Raya

However now that you explained how you got there, I do admit that it makes a bit more sense, especially given that I finally understand after the 10th read through exactly what you were referring to when you said "lol hadn't seen this yet". I had been reading it over and over thinking that what you "handn't seen" was some nugget that supposedly gave you a clear scum read on raya which is why you ended up voting her. But now I actually realize you are lol'ing over having first posted "anyone caught scum yet" and then immediately noticing that in the post right before yours Garmr had said "I thought caught scum early on", which I guess you saw as a funny coincidence?

I still don't like the smell of your play but I admit that your justifications are at least sensible.

Flubber isn't playing so there is no need to even discuss that slot atm.

Oops. I walled.

[bji]

idk when this game started

two days ago, so yeah I feel like my entrance was reasonable. Don't you?

Nah man, that's not how I'd play it, I mean I don't think I'd waste people's time with that first post but whatever, play style and all. I'm not explicitly trying to beat you up about it, just trying to let you know how I read it.

Then you post a fairly safe read list that just kind of echoes common sentiment

Talk to me more about this
I don't really remember reads on skitter, garmr, or sashaddin? Can you provide examples of whose reads you think I was copying?

Nobody had even expressed any scum leanings towards garmr/skitter so you're not rocking the boat by calling those "definitely town".

Clemency and myself were definitely the 'hot topics' for a while there of people trying to decide what our interactions indicated about our alignment, and I felt that most of the conclusions were wishy-washy "it's probably TvT" statements, so "prob town" is another consensus-matching call.

Sashaddin, nobody had much opinion on.

I fell justified in calling that a "fairly safe read list", in that it didn't express any opinion that anyone had indicated any likelihood of disagreeing on.

The vote on Raya is the only novel idea in the read list, and at the time I posted the quoted text, I hadn't figured out what your "lol" was in reference to, still thought it was you trying to justify the vote but with very little ("non effort") evidence.

[bji]

eh
those are fine responses
though I definitely don't think you can handwave my reads as "safe consensus reads" when I was the first to give a read for 3/5 of them? Like?? And landing on hard townreads means it's something you can hold me accountable to. Scumread the next person to townread skitter or garmr, not me. Kinda reads like you TMIing their alignments ("townreading town is too easy", is kind of how it's coming across), because the other option is you somehow magically know what everyone else's reads will be when they return to the thread and can tell that my reads match that future consensus. Wish I had that kind of foresight.

A simple reads list with no other text that puts a town read on someone is about as safe as you can get. You can walk back from that so easily it's not even funny, any time you want to. That's a pretty safe list to throw out there. My point is still valid. My statements were rational given what you had posted up to that point.

Also I didn't ask if my first post is "how you'd play it", I asked if it's reasonable. Is it reasonable?

What a weird thing to push on. Your first post was fluff, and could have no purpose as town, and little purpose as scum other than to try to establish a play style for the game that would let you slide through. If you are scum, I took that away from you though by challenging you on it. So if you are scum, point to me no?

If you are town, it is not a reasonable post for helping the town agenda in any way. But like I said, it could just be a non-play. Not what I would do, I don't really post non-play posts if I can help it, but like I said, if that's your play style, then OK.

[bji]

My point there was that it's too early to scumread me for "consensus reads", since I was the first to state most of them
If you want to scumread someone for "consensus reads", scumread the next person to townread skitter or garmr, not me

If you'll notice, I said you were either scum or worthless town. That is a null read. Your narrative is based on the complete fabrication of me scumreading you.

I feel quite comfortable with where my vote is right now.

[bji]

I agree it's a weird thing to push on, and accept you labeling it as such. It just feels like you want to include my first post as a reason to scumread me, which I think is plainly ridiculous. I just gave you the town purpose (sidenote: it would also be the scum purpose) for my post - that I wanted to explain why I wasn't itt for the first 2 days of the game. If my explanation for the post is reasonable, why assume any other description for the reasoning behind my post is more true than what I've said?

That was a calculated attempt to take away your ability to slide through on little effort as scum if that's what you were trying to do. I'd say it succeeded given that if you are scum you've now had to explain yourself numerous times and also been forced to take an offensive against me to deflect any suspicion away from yourself. Of course, if you're town then you're not trying to deflect anything and are genuinely annoyed at having to defend yourself in this way. Who knows. Only time will tell. My job here is not to give townies warm fuzzy feelings (especially no-effort ones or lurkers who I will be brutal on because I hate that kind of player) but to make scum uncomfortable and force them to explain themselves, to put down text that they may regret later as it may paint them into a corner. I will do that early and often.

If you are changing your point from "your reads are consensus reads" to "your reads are safe reads", then yes, your new point is valid-ish (though it's contradicted by you being surprised by my raya vote). Your statement that my reads were "consensus" is not valid, though, and I'm frustrated by your insistence that it is. I'm getting too annoyed by you at this point to determine if my scumread on you makes sense anymore, so I'm gonna wait for outside commentary before discussing this with you further.

This is a pointless debate. I have been consistent in describing how I arrived at my descriptions of your initial reads list. It was all predicated on a low-activity Irrelepant11 which is not true any longer, and on some confusion I had about what you meant in your 'lol handn't seen this yet' post. Whether you want to categorize my initial opinion of your reads list as "safe" or "consensus based" or whatever, it's all partially true because my evaluation was not wholly based on either of those concepts, but partially on both. And of course it was somewhat over-stated because my goal was mostly to prod you into greater action, which I have done, and to analyze your responses, which I have also done.

Re: being annoyed with me, I guess I just don't get some of the players in this game. Are we playing Mafia here or did I join the wrong forum?

pedit: ?? "scum or worthless town" is how you describe a nullread?
You voted me after saying "either scum or worthless", and I'm supposed to assume you're nullreading me?

Well I don't play Mafia very often (once or twice a year at most), so my vernacular may not be as nuanced as some. I meant 'null read' in the sense that it was not committal either way, I said either scum or worthless town, so there is no reason to assume that I meant one was more likely than the other. I only said that if either is the case, then we should lynch it.

I am now completely losing in my fight against walling

[bji]

Yeah I'm not liking bji either now. One reach was excusable, but this second one seems even more forced. Especially how he ended it with "irrelphant being a null read but worthless if town so should lynch anyway."

Ended with? That's what I started with. You should pay closer attention.

What are the two reaches? Do you mean the two instances where I actually tried to progress the game instead of sitting back and playing safe?

[bji]

You know what
VOTE: BJI

I got lots of reactions from Clemency and Irrelephant so I feel like I'm getting quite a bit done here.

I leave it up to my fellow townies to decide if they think that this game will be won by applying pressure and forcing reactions or by sitting back and making unconvincing passive judgements.

[bji]

That being said
-You are conscious of your appearance and you are constantly trying to push that your aggressiveness makes you town.

Mischaracterization. My statements were an accurate description of the tact I have taken in response to your insinuation that there was something disingenuous about the "reaching" positions I had taken previously.

-You jumped from a scum read to a null read while shading the fuck out the null read slot.

This is just patently false. I never stated a read, was quite clear to say that the player was either scum or incompetent town. I have never stated a clear read on irrelephant one way or another, and certainly not flip flopped on it. And one man's 'shading' is another man's 'scumhunting' so ...

-You ignored the point above when I mentioned it and pushed even harder that you are winning the game for town painting a picture.

Which point was that again?

-Your points are reacy.

At this point in the game, *every* argument is going to look reachy because there is so little evidence for anything to be based on. Everyone playing this game should be aware of this. You should be aware of this.

All

of your points, including this one, are reachy for the same reason.

[bji]

If your points are reachy, then his point [that you are reachy] is not reachy, correct?

It is the use of the claim that my cases were 'reachy' as evidence for a scum lean that is reachy, not his statement that my points were reachy.

Don't love how anyone who interacts with you is clearly supposed to come out looking scummier than you.

Well get used to it, I guess, because I'm not going to stop challenging people just because you don't like my style.

Also it should be obvious that "either scum or incompetent town, let's lynch" comes across as a scum read, because I'm not going to assume you think I'm incompetent/worthless town???

Do you honestly think I was making a serious claim there? You really think I expected everyone to believe that within three posts you had already been nailed as scum and should be lynched?

As I said before, it was because I thought you might be scum trying to slide by with a certain play style, I wanted to interfere with that play style. If you are scum then I think it's good to have challenged you. If you are town it as at the very least neutral; maybe it gets you to be more talkative, or maybe you would have ended up being that way anyway.

I don't know how to read you, but you sure are riling up townies (we can't all be scum), which I'm not loving personally. Which is to say, I'm back to thinking you might be town, but I don't personally like interacting with you at all so far. Seems like you only want to approach this game from a "I don't make mistakes, and scum will out themselves by interacting with me" which is honestly *not* an ideal playstyles imo but probably doesn't deserve a scumread on its own

The two who seem riled up are you and Garmr. You could both be the scum, that's within the realm of possibility.

I've done pretty well with my play style in the past. You are projecting when you claim that I would think "I don't make mistakes", I never said that and do not believe it. But I do believe that scum will 'out' themselves in a sense due to interactions with town, it won't be obvious and it's very unlikely to happen on Day 1, but it will happen eventually. I mean that's the only way we win I think. How else are we going to spot the scum? Random guesswork and passing judgements on people's play styles?

[bji]

Clemency was also riled up / almost replaced out.

I don't think of him as being 'riled up' in the same sense that you and Garmr have been because he basically just shut down, whereas you guys are actively posting and still being interactive.

I get the feeling that Clemency was hoping for a very casual game where people would make jokes and talk about literature and stuff. People are still welcome to do that, it's not my intention to turn this game into something that people don't enjoy. But they'll have to actually post if they want that to happen because when I'm one of the only active people, the game is going to be more serious, because that's how I play it.

So to be clear here: I have a town read on Clemency after our interaction. I think that if he really were scum he would have worked harder to defend himself and stay active in the game instead of turtling there.

How do you feel about Garmr piggy-backing on my frustration with you? If I'm town, how do you read him?

I was hoping to see how things played out a bit further before saying this but I think now is probably most appropriate: I am not sure my reads on Garmr can ever be trusted. I

want

Garmr to be scum and I want to lynch him. Garmr is the only player in this game that I have ever knowingly played with before, and I do not want to create bad blood here so early in the game, but it was not a pleasant experience.

That being said, I don't have a strong opinion on Garmr's alignment yet. Of course I don't like our interaction, because I don't like being accused of being scum, and I really don't like the reasoning he used, but town can easily do that as well as scum.

[bji]

garmr/skitter definitely town
clemency/bji/sashaddin prob town
VOTE: raya

Terrible entrance, non effort reads. Scum or worthless town, kill it either way.

UNVOTE: Clemency
VOTE: Irrelephant11

a) why are these reads non-effort?

I think you basically answered the question yourself later in your post, but the categorization of "non-effort" was based on two concepts: 1) that the reads were not explained at all, which is pretty non-effort, and 2) the reads could, as I have stated before, be described to a degree as just echoing reads that had already been made in the thread (with regards to me and Clemency) and that would likely not cause alot of controversy, thus not *inviting* the effort that is required for defending unusual reads. I also mentioned that I just plain didn't understand the raya read/vote but that I figured it had something to do with the 'lol' post that I didn't understand until later.

But really, more importantly, I wasn't trying to make a super coherent argument there, I was just trying to probe Irrelephant for reaction and prevent him from playing a low effort scum game if that was in fact his game plan.

b) why are you basically proposing a pl on this - 'scum or worthless town', you don't seem to care which it is? (i don't inherently believe that this has to come from scum or worthless town)

Two reasons: like I said, to create a reaction, both from irrelephant, and from others; and also, because I really genuinely do think that town is better played actively and with consensus-building text, rather than just short read lists and little communication, so while I would not lynch a town irrelephant just because he was not being super communicative, I wanted to make a clear statement that I personally want to see more from town.

OK now is the point where I need to take a step back from this game because I am starting to overwhelm the post count, which is not good for anybody.

[bji]

Oh I remember you now your that guy who talked shit to me and piskop, while being utterly wrong in game. Despite me fake claiming cop that game on town, my fake claim made it kinda obvious who scum were after that point and put town in a postion to win.

Let's not get into the details, they are irrelevant here.

[bji]

kinda think bji is town actually

But who is scum?

[bji]

@bji did you know it was L-1?

I did not know it until I read it just now.

PEDIT: I've caught further up and I'm no longer L-1.

@clemency want to vote raya with me? Personally I think L-1'ing Bji does not match the strength of the case raya is making/reads sorta agenda-y. Agree y/n?

I propose a scenario where Raya is scum with either ReaperOfSouls or Flubbernugget. A few reasons:

1. The feeling I get from Raya is that she's playing kind of solo right now. Like she's out there on her own trying to carry the scum team while her partner in crime is lurking, either intentionally (game plan) or unintentionally (real life reasons? Just don't care that they're dragging the game down?). Some evidence:

I've played with Skitter and Flubber before and I think that's it. It's been a while since I've played though so I'm just going to pretend I don't know anybody and start fresh.

Acknowledges playing with Flubber before but wants to start fresh - possibly doesn't want anyone to consider any interaction with Flubber from prior games when evaluating their relationship this round, which would be convenient if they were the scum team and Raya was sensitive to being judged in interactions this game with Flubber against interactions in previous games.

2. First post is "Hey Everyone!" and voted skitter. OK presumably she is voting a player she's already played with before for laughs but ... why pick skitter over flubber? Skitter happened to end up being an active player, flubber not. If my theory is correct then it would be quite the coincidence that for skitter and flubber, only flubber has ended up being a non-player.

3. I genuinely believe that scum is more likely to lurk and replace out than town. I have played scum before and in my opinion it is much more work than town. It is not fun to spend an entire game with the feeling that you are being hunted (not for me at least), you have the added pressure of feeling like one slip up from you will cost the entire game whereas town doesn't get that generally until very late in the game when in LYLO or close to it. Also for me at least, lying doesn't feel good, at least until I get used to it within the first day or two of a scum game. And I think that playing scum well takes alot of careful work to ensure that you do not say anything that can be shown to be contradictory or unusually inconsistent later (which is why I like to pressure people because I want that tangled web to be even more tangly for the scum to make their job even harder and more likely to slip up). And finally, in my actual experience, scum does replace out more frequently (although I only have like 7 games evidence and so the data set is small). So for these reasons I think it's more likely for a casual player just looking for a "fun game" to decide it's not worth it to have to play scum. And hey presto, flubber is currently the least contributory player and most likely to replace out.

4. I sense super inconsistency on how her reads are being applied. When my push was on Clemency she wrote alot of text giving great detail about why she would call it TvT with careful analysis of several points for and against a scum leaning for both me and Clemency (post 132). But then later, when I applied a very similar push style against Irrelephant, she was immediately suspicious (post 201) and suddenly my early push which was in her initial evaluation "a good attempt at getting out of RVS and thus town" is lumped in the category of "2 incredibly reachy pushes". And she switches to a vote on me. My play style did not change between my first and second pushes -- but what did change was that Garmr was suddenly attacking me for them, and it feels opportunistic for Raya to change her evaluation of my first push just so that she could follow Garmr on a wagon against me.

Sorry I am at work and I have alot to catch up on in thread so give me a minute ...

[bji]

And before anyone says it, YES some/all of those reasons are reachy. At this point in the game it would be fairly impossible for them not to be.

[bji]

I think an L-2 on Raya is the right thing at this point in the game. Her post 216 has confirmed this for me.

UNVOTE: Irrelephant
VOTE: Raya

[bji]

I'm confused. Is Tedoxeshalo the same person as Texdoeshalo from page 1? Has the mod mispelled the player name both in the announcement and in the player list on page 1?

Ted/Tex ... a question for you ... how many games of Mafia have you played?

[bji]

This game is definitely the slowest I've played so far.

Does that suggest anything to you?

[bji]

Does that suggest anything to you?

If you were implying that I wasn't

personally

making much and shouldn't cry about it, well mea culpa. When it was summertime I was on vacation so I could take a lot of time for this, but since school has begun again, I can only spend so much time on thinking about this. I come here 2 or 3 times a day though. I like the game and want to continue playing despite having less time for it. Now I'm not the guy who posts big walls I prefer to discuss a few posts at a time. Like this.

I was just asking because I think that it

can

suggest something meaningful about the players involved and I wanted to know if you were seeing anything. My question wasn't pertaining to you specifically -- I see your approach to the game as being pretty consistent throughout - unlike some players here.

I think that what Texdoeshalo does now might be quite elucidating.

[bji]

3- We got to a L-1 for a very short time. Usually L-1 provokes a lot of discussions and idea, but it didn't last this time.

Garmr took the hammer off me pretty quickly. I think Garmr has been playing long enough to know that a hammer was not going to happen there. All of the players who had expressed any scum leaning on me were already on my wagon. The only players who hadn't expressed any real opinion were the lurker twins Reaper and Flubber.

So given that Garmr has me as one of his top, if not as his top, scum read, why do you think he'd remove the hammer from me?

[bji]

3- We got to a L-1 for a very short time. Usually L-1 provokes a lot of discussions and idea, but it didn't last this time.

Garmr took the hammer off me pretty quickly. I think Garmr has been playing long enough to know that a hammer was not going to happen there. All of the players who had expressed any scum leaning on me were already on my wagon. The only players who hadn't expressed any real opinion were the lurker twins Reaper and Flubber.

So given that Garmr has me as one of his top, if not as his top, scum read, why do you think he'd remove the hammer from me?

You can go jump off a cliff with that comment

Comment? It was a question. What exactly is your problem?

Do you actually get offended when someone asks questions about you? If so you may be emotionally unfit for this game and you might want to consider quitting.

I been in this game long enough to know that scum can self hammer when at l-1 to deny information. I also know that town can yolo quick hammer(I've done that myself). Is it likely to happen no, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

So the chance of getting more info out of your top scum read, of getting reactions and interactions between your top scum read at L-1 and other players in the game, is not worth the very low chance of a scum self-hammer (which you'll have to explain to me how that could possibly be a bad thing at this point in the game) or a yolo town quick hammer of your top scum read?

Sure seems like you're posturing as if I am your top scum read but in fact you know that I'm not scum so you can't actually bring yourself to care about my being hammered. I'm just another townie in your eyes, and you have so many more to kill anyway before you can win the game.

Also that's scummy as fuck instead of bringing it to me to see my reaction or making a case. You bring it to another player. You pretty much avoided calling me scum. If you think you will avoid conflict with me that way you are fucking wrong.

It's scummy to care more about gauging Sashaddin's reaction to that question than it is to take the question to you directly? Why?

Sorry my game is a little more complex than just asking people direct questions.

[bji]

I'd just like to point out to everyone what just happened here so that town can be crystal clear on this:

I asked Sashaddin for his opinion of something that Garmr had done, and Garmr jumped out of the woodwork to defend himself against a question not even asked of him. He didn't wait to see what Sash had to say -- one would think that would be interesting detail that Garmr might want to know right? I mean Garmr would want to know that if he actually needed this "information" that is so important to him that he can't keep the hammer on me for fear of losing out on it ... but information about another player's viewpoint on his own play ... nope, he can't be bothered to wait to get it. He'd rather jump in and proactively defend himself.

Someone help me out here ... does Garmr actually want information or doesn't he?

[bji]

So feeding narrative isn't useful? What if I am trying to gauge how readily Sashaddin agrees with a certain conclusion?

But what do I know ... I'm just out here trying to get information ...

[bji]

1.Can I ask you what information did you hope to get by asking a loaded question

When Sash lamented that the game was slow, I wondered if he'd even given any thought to the idea that the game being slow might say something about how comfortable scum was with the way the day was playing out. There are numerous arguments for and against this idea, but I think it's an interesting idea, and I was curious to know whether Sash had even considered them ...

Then he posted his list of reasons, and (1) and (2) were obvious and I agreed to them, I saw little of interest in those points. But (3) was interesting because he noticed something inconsistent between this game and his other games, which was that the hammer didn't last long at all this game and so the opportunity for discussion and ideas was lost. Which made me think back to when the hammer was taken away -- I didn't even have time to post an answer to the question "do you know the hammer is on you" before the hammer was back off again. I also thought this was odd because I was expecting more intense discussion of my play given that there had been so much active interest in my slot in days prior; if I were another townie I'd be frustrated that the opportunity to put some pressure on my slot was taken away. And I sensed a little of that frustration in Sash from that comment.

But I couldn't understand why he would not have then suspected something of you for taking the hammer away -- not even asked you why you did it.

So I decided to ask him a question about it -- to see what he thought might be your reasons for doing that. And yes, it was framed in a way to invite his suspicion because I wanted to see if he would resist something that I think should have naturally made him suspicious. It's reaction testing and basically just trying to get him to put down meaningful opinions about you that can be examined later in the game.

2.If someone asked another person a loaded question framing you in a negative light. Would you wait while letting them be manipulated or call it out while the topic is hot?

Depends on the situation, but generally I'd let it slide. Certainly I would have let that question to Sash slide, you've got no votes and plenty of time to defend yourself.

3.Why did you ignore the fact you asked a loaded question?

Huh? How did I ignore it? I acknowledged your categorization of the question in post 270 by re-using your terminology of "feeding narrative". Feeding narrative implies loaded question.

4.Why are you trying to appeal to everyone else?

I am making people I think are interesting make statements and express opinions about other people I think are interesting.

Is our interaction going to turn into a broken record where you keep asking me why I am doing stuff and I keep asking you why you are doing nothing?

I doubt that you would be gauging how readily he accepts that otherwise you would of said it when I called you out. Instead of throwing a accusation straight away. Sounds like to me you were caught out. This sounds more like a rushed defence you thought up after the fact.

You are creating a narrative based on your guesses about what I would have done.

I'll let town decide who is more likely to have been caught out here, me or you.

[bji]

That's it your doing it again trying to cut the conversation short by to appeal to third parties. Your temperament is slightly different when you are the one getting pressured. If you are pressuring and in the dominant position your fine with 1v1 and continuing the argument on a personal level. But when I'm dominant and pressuring you try to cut it short and appeal to others instead of engaging in personal debate. Which makes me feel this is the right path of pushing

I'm trying to spare everyone having to listen to you and me make the same points over and over again because I don't think we're going to get anywhere. You have your opinion about what happened and I have mine.

I happen to have faith that town will get this right, so I don't need to keep justifying myself to you.

[bji]

i mean, i agree with you that a hammer there was *unlikely*, but i don't have much issue with the fact that he unvoted on like page7 or whatever in order to completely remove the possibility; having the day end with someone lolhammering would not be super helpful to the overall health of the game

OK I wrote a huge wall in response to your post here but I deleted it. Nobody wants to read that, it's just not helping.

I like to think my points were clear already in my discussion with Garmr. I'm going to bore everyone if I restate them.

To answer the spirit of your questions though -- is this my third weak case? Yes it is. I will say again that all cases at this point in the game are weak. Every single thing that happens has both a scum and town justification and they are nearly impossible to tell apart. Everyone who tries to make a case will have this fact used by both town and scum to tear the case down. It's how this game always works.

However, I will continue to try to make interesting things happen. I genuinely believe that at some point

something

will happen that will allow an actual strong case to be built up out of fragments of evidence in all of these weak cases. The fragments may not come from any of my interactions here in which case I sincerely apologize for wasting people's time. But I gotta try ...

I'll say quite frankly that as far as the smell test goes, Garmr passes it. I just don't see him being scum here. His actions and reactions feel very town to me. I reserve the right to change my mind later though, if some compelling connection comes up between things that have already happened and things yet to happen that make a good case to call him scum.

I feel the same way about Sash. I felt that way about Clemency at first but something about his turtling concerns me a bit. It feels more like a scum motivation of not wanting to be the focus of attention so early than town genuinely not wanting to play just because he got some early heat. Again, it's just the faintest whiff. But it's there.

Raya I am still deciding about and I still have a scum lean on her. My theory of one active scum and one lurking scum just feels right to me right now. I am hoping that we can quickly sniff this new guy out if he really is a scum.

The others ... I am too tired to think about right now. It's late and I need to go to bed.

[bji]

Yeah that was a wall too but it is smaller than my deleted one, I swear!

[bji]

I'd just like to point out to everyone what just happened here so that town can be crystal clear on this:

I asked Sashaddin for his opinion of something that Garmr had done, and Garmr jumped out of the woodwork to defend himself against a question not even asked of him. He didn't wait to see what Sash had to say -- one would think that would be interesting detail that Garmr might want to know right? I mean Garmr would want to know that if he actually needed this "information" that is so important to him that he can't keep the hammer on me for fear of losing out on it ... but information about another player's viewpoint on his own play ... nope, he can't be bothered to wait to get it. He'd rather jump in and proactively defend himself.

Someone help me out here ... does Garmr actually want information or doesn't he?

this feels a little disingenuous to me; i'm not sure if removing the possibility of a lolhammer is at all the same thing as responding to a question asked about you to someone else (nor do i particularly have a problem with the fact that he responded before sash could? like it would have been nice if he did but like i don't think it's scummy or bad that he didn't)

I'm doing the same thing everyone else is doing. I'm noting inconsistencies even when they are marginal.

That being said, I really and genuinely do think there is an inconsistency in approach to the game in first quickly taking a player off L-1 with the explanation that an unlikely quickhammer is undesirable because it means a lost chance of getting information, and later not letting questions that could provide information stand, and furthermore, not doing anything active to try to get information after ending the L-1. Is it just town inconsistency or could there be real scum motivation there? I was kinda hoping to trump the case up and get people talking about it to see what people thought, but that's mostly been defeated by my arguing with Garmr about it and subsequently explaining my reasoning instead of just letting it stand to see responses. I should be more patient and let the responses come in.

I'll say quite frankly that as far as the smell test goes, Garmr passes it. I just don't see him being scum here. His actions and reactions feel very town to me. I reserve the right to change my mind later though, if some compelling connection comes up between things that have already happened and things yet to happen

that make a good case to call him scum.

ngl this sounds a little bit like you're looking out for things that you can use to case him
like your'e framing this as: 'if i find things that i can case him over i might change my mind'
vs 'i reserve the right to change my read if i think he's scummy later'

It is "I reserve the right to change my read if I think he's scummy later". I shouldn't even have to write that disclaimer since it should be patently obvious to everyone that that true for everyone at all points in the game, but with the way people have been nitpicking my play style I feel like I had to say it.

i think it's specifically the fact that you're using phrases like 'case' and 'call him scum' -> like you don't think or believe he's scum (which is how townies push a scumcase), but rather you're calling him scum (which is how scum push a scum case since they know they aren't actually scum, but must still call them that to get that mislynch through)

I don't think he's scum right now. But that doesn't mean that he isn't or that I won't change my mind later. I don't know how else to say it.

I have never found a scum in a game of Mafia by nitpicking word choices like that, for what it's worth. I've noticed posting patterns and caught scum that way; I've noticed a difference in attitude from certain players towards certain aspects of the game than others and found scum that way; I've seen inconsistencies between actual votes versus earlier statements about players and found scum that way; and I've found scum just by being lucky. But I've never found scum by looking at word choices. If you can find scum that way, then more power to you. But I think it's pretty weak sauce personally.

[bji]

Argument reads not-TvS

Can you unpack that for me?

[bji]

UNVOTE: Raya
VOTE: Texdoeshalo

This slot needs to come up with some content fast. I have no problem lynching this slot based on all the reasons I gave already.

[bji]

VOTE: TexdoesHalo

Was unsure of Flubber and Tex hasn't done anything to ease mind.

this vote makes me a little ???? about tex being scum
reaper voting for a lurker seems like he found an easy place to stick his vote given that he's not really doing anything either

Under what circumstances would a vote by Reaper on Flubber/Tex be evidence that Flubber/Tex is not scum?

[bji]

Seeking a replacement for Raya36. If I do not have one within 72 hours, the game will be paused until I find a replacement or have to modkill the slot.

Surely not because of inactivity? She posted yesterday didn't she?

[bji]

Votecount 1.8:

Bji: 2 (Clemency, Garmr)
Texdoeshalo: 3 (bji, Sashaddin, ReaperOfSouls)

L-2

ReaperOfSouls: 2 (Irrelephant11, Skitter30)

Not voting: TexdoesHalo, Creature

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 will end on December 1st, 2018 at 3:30 PM PST or 11 days, 22 hours, and 20 minutes from this post.

The following players have not posted since the last votecount and will be prodded if they have not posted before the next one, unless they are V/LA: bji, Texdoeshalo, ReaperOfSouls (V/LA)

This vote count is not correct.

I am going to re-read the game and do some analysis of Day 1. Will be posting sometime later tonight.

[bji]

OK I've re-read the game as critically as I can. I can only do this as a wall because there is alot of evidence to present. Sorry.

I see consistency from everyone except Raya in this game. Of course there are marginal inconsistencies from everyone (myself included) except the lurkers who have had so little content as to not even be readable. But Raya is head and shoulders above the rest. I would like to convince town to run a Raya slot wagon please.

I will start it off with my vote:

UNVOTE: Reaper
VOTE: Creature

My reasoning:

- I didn't like how Raya volunteered that she had already played with Skitter and Flubber (post 55) after RVS voting Skitter without having mentioned it until I asked someone (Sash, Clemency? Can't remember, and I neglected to write it down in my notes and am too lazy to go look it up) about who they had played with before. She popped in to volunteer this info. Something about volunteering to answer a question not asked of her as an opportunity to volunteer that she had already played with those two and to make a point that she would be "starting fresh" so as to reduce interest in her association with them, doesn't sit well with me. I will repeat that the Flubber slot ended up being a lurker, which also fits into my general gut feel that we have at most one active scum playing - and Flubber could easily be the other scum. Tex replaced in and replaced right out. The slot is very dirty.

- Raya's sequence from post 60 to post 79 seems a little off to me. Clemency and I had almost no exchange before her post 50 where she said she had some thoughts but wanted to hear his defense first. Then post 79 included conclusions that only could have been drawn

after

all the stuff that happened between Clemency and I (and to some degree, her) in between post 60 and post 79. This suggests to me that she already had a position she wanted to state (Clemency and I being TvT) at the time she posted 60 and then it just happened that the posts from 61 to 79 supported that position; I didn't see her appear to change her viewpoint on either me or Clemency any time in the middle or to ask any questions that indicated that she was waffling on a viewpoint. So how could she already know at post 60 that she was going to declare me and Clemency TvT by post 79 unless she already knew we were both town?

- She town read me for my initial push on Clemency, then switched to using the same push on Clemency as a reason for a scum read on me, and then when challenged on it, just changed her mind. At every step of the way she appears to be trying to avoid confrontation/criticism much more so than actually scumhunting or holding any conviction on her previously stated point of view.

- Post 108 has some very artificial-sounding logic in it: "Clemency's reaction as I said seemed genuine, I'm just not sure from which alignment". This makes no sense: Clemency's reaction was frustration at being the target of an early push. This frustration can only be genuine if from town - because town can be frustrated by feeling like they are going to be mislynched early, especially when they feel that other town are the ones driving the mislynch. But if you're a scum!Clemency, then why would you be frustrated at being the target of a push? You're playing a game where you expect to be a target since you

are

the scum, I wouldn't be frustrated by town suspicion, but I would certainly be trying hard to allay it. So I just don't think that the argument that "Clemency's frustration was real but I can't tell which alignment it is coming from" is plausable. Raya sounds more like scum trying not to be committal; to be seen as expressing opinions and ostensibly "trying to figure out the game" but actually not realizing the way that waffling on that opinion doesn't make sense when argued from a town point of view.

- Raya post 216 tries to back up some of her reasoning by claiming that Clemency would be easy to get a mislynch on, and that "his reactions in general could easily be interpreted as scummy". At no point did I see even Raya claiming that any of Clemency's reactions could be "easily" interpreted as scummy (at most, some of his reactions left question marks for her), so I don't see where this conclusion comes from. There is no justification for any of this given that Clemency was mostly town read and the worst that people had were slight scum leanings on him. I don't think anyone else would have argued that Clemency's reactions could easily be interpreted as scummy or saw him as an easy mislynch target. The logic here just doesn't make any sense and doesn't even seem like it could have come from Raya who had previously devoted so much attention to Clemency and me. Had she already lost interest in the game and couldn't put forth the effort necessary to put forth a believable town position here?

- Skitter post 221 says that Raya played a scum game with him where she did pretty much exactly what she did this game -- call a TvT argument (which she knew was TvT because she was scum) and then replace out early. How much of a coincidence can this possibly be?

Every one of those points could have some town motivation too, obviously, but when put all together I just think there is too much evidence of questionable play from Raya.

[bji]

My position on other players:

- I am naturally suspicious of lurkers in this game -- I can totally see Raya replacing out because she felt like she was getting no support from her scum partner. I have seen exactly this same thing before. So Reaper and Texdoeshalo are right now just mired in that suspicion for me.

- Clemency feels town. Every bit of his play makes sense from the perspective of a town player who just wanted to have a fun/easy game, he harked back to his previous game a few times with descriptions that make me believe that it was very low on confrontation (especially for him!) and that this is the kind of game he is seeking. And since some people - especially me - are making this game more serious/confrontational than he was hoping for, he's probably just lost interest.

- skitter30 feels very town. Lots of well reasoned and patient analysis of the game.

- Sashaddin feels kind of town. Seems a little too noncommittal to me, and doesn't seem to want to get involved in any contentious issues. My suspicions are based mostly on his lack of any apparent scum hunting effort. Could just be play style. He came from the same game that Clemency liked so maybe he was another player who prefers the "no confrontation, no serious pushes, just keep reading the game and making guesses" play style.

- Irrelephant seems very town to me. Feels alot like skitter30 - well reasoned, thoughtful, genuinely looks to be trying to figure out the game.

- Garmr's exchanges with me and others look pretty town. I notice that his attitude towards me seemed to shift after I reminded him of our previous game, and now he is just looking for reasons to pick fights with me and call me scum. I think he wants me to be lynched regardless of whether or not I am scum. To be honest I feel the same way but I think I am trying harder to play to a town win for this game than to exercise a grudge. Yeah I know everything I just said is going to piss Garmr off to no end and he's probably going to swear at me some more, but I'm just calling it like I see it here.

Aside from his interactions with me, I think Garmr has used reasonable analysis when discussing other people's positions.

Raya/Creature I already talked about in my previous post.

So that's everyone.

[bji]

I don't feel like we are likely to lynch town this game day
Bji I don't understand voting creature over reaper rn
I think creature has basically played nai, and raya was hard to read, too
I think reaper has been active lurking and actively scummy

I see your case on someone who has maybe overplayed in a scummy way and raise you a slot that *isn't playing*

For two reasons:

1. Because I think my points against Raya are better than "lynch a lurker" in terms of likelihood to catch scum.
2. Because votes against Raya, and especially a lynch of Raya, will be more meaningful going forward in terms of analysis of remaining players than votes/lynch of Reaper, who is basically being targeted just because he's lurking.

[bji]

I'm happy this game is picking up pace again!

What I'm thinking about right now:

1. We haven't heard of the TexdoesHalo slot for the entire game
2. I like jumping on wagons but I have to have a reason to do it.
3. I don't find Creature that scummy (nor that towny either) to wagon him.
4. If Creature is town, I think he will be a great asset to town. If he's scum, we'll just get him later,

So... for those four points, I think I'm going to stick with Tex for now. I could give Creature a vote if someone can convince me so.

*Poke TexdoesHalo* bc we don't want a modkill.

Do you actually want to lynch Tex? Because it doesn't sound like you do. If you wanted to lynch him, a modkill should be just as good from your perspective; maybe even better. Because:

a. If Tex is modkilled and flips scum then this is just a good result. We want to lynch scum!
b. If Tex is modkilled and flips town, then:
- We still have more time in Day 1 to discuss and select another Day 1 lynch
- We will at least have one fewer town to mislynch, making the odds of hitting scum that much better on Day 1

I just can't see how, if you really do want to lynch Tex, you'd be so worried about mod kill.

And if you actually want Tex lynched, then it is I think a net positive from your position because you get what is tantamount to

two

lynches before the scum get a night kill. Unless you think that a NK is more valuable to town for info than another lynch; but even if you do think that, you can just vote for no lynch after the modkill and the effect is the same as if Tex had been lynched. instead of modkilled.

Did you not realize this?

[bji]

Votecount 1.9:

Bji: 1 (Garmr)
Texdoeshalo: 2 (Sashaddin, ReaperOfSouls)
ReaperOfSouls: 2 (Irrelephant11, Skitter30)
Creature: 2 (bji, Clemency)

If this is incorrect please notify me as to what needs to be changed. I write these by hand and thus mistakes are inevitable.

Not voting: TexdoesHalo, Creature

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 will end on December 1st, 2018 at 3:30 PM PST or 10 days, 23 hours, and 46 minutes from this post.

The following players have not posted since the last votecount and will be prodded if they have not posted before the next one, unless they are V/LA: ReaperOfSouls (V/LA, will be prodded if he does not post before the next votecount)

Texdoeshalo has been prodded. He will be forcibly replaced out if he does not post within 24 hours or gets prodded again.

Then replace me. I thought thats what the v/la was for. Been at hospital for 3 days. Family>mafia any day. And the elephants scum game isnt very good.

Are you playing against your win condition or are you just calling Irrelephant scum?

Also, sorry that you have to be at the hospital, but no need to be an ass about it.

[bji]

Votecount 1.9:

Bji: 1 (Garmr)
Texdoeshalo: 2 (Sashaddin, ReaperOfSouls)
ReaperOfSouls: 2 (Irrelephant11, Skitter30)
Creature: 2 (bji, Clemency)

If this is incorrect please notify me as to what needs to be changed. I write these by hand and thus mistakes are inevitable.

Not voting: TexdoesHalo, Creature

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 will end on December 1st, 2018 at 3:30 PM PST or 10 days, 23 hours, and 46 minutes from this post.

The following players have not posted since the last votecount and will be prodded if they have not posted before the next one, unless they are V/LA: ReaperOfSouls (V/LA, will be prodded if he does not post before the next votecount)

Texdoeshalo has been prodded. He will be forcibly replaced out if he does not post within 24 hours or gets prodded again.

Then replace me. I thought thats what the v/la was for. Been at hospital for 3 days. Family>mafia any day. And the elephants scum game isnt very good.

Are you playing against your win condition or are you just calling Irrelephant scum?

Also, sorry that you have to be at the hospital, but no need to be an ass about it.

By which I meant, acting like the mod is being so unreasonable, which is how your post came off. Because the mod hasn't said you'll be replaced, just prodded.

[bji]

OK, thanks, I really did not understand your initial post -- I actually thought you might be throwing the game out of frustration with the mod.

[bji]

There are things I need to do in the am in preparation of the most beautiful girl in the world coming home for the first time.

Oh wow, congratulations! I am so happy for you!

[bji]

yeah this game is way too quiet
Garmr who's never scum here? Maybe we just PoE the lynch

Sorry, someone please remind me what AtE and PoE mean?

Creature comes in and basically just writes that no one knows what they are doing, with very little evidence except a few quotes cherry picked from here or there, and people start unvoting?

I sense that some players are just waiting to sheep Creature because he's Creature? Like I've never played with this person before or even heard of him, there's no way I'm doing that personally. Even if I did know him, I still wouldn't do it. That's just stupid because whatever town feel you think you are reading from his play could easily be faked.

[bji]

Also if you aren't familiar with his play how do you know that the town feel I get from his posts could be easily faked

Because any posting style that would lead you to a conclusion that he is town in like 10 posts is easily faked. It only takes 10 posts' worth of work apparently.

Also it's impossible for someone to be so easily town read just on style unless their scum game is terrible. Because then one could easily know when creature was scum because he wouldn't be playing this easy to read town style. Of course if he could then fake that easy to read town style, then my point above would be proven.

[bji]

What exactly is the difference between 15 sentences scattered over 15 posts and a 15 sentence wall? I can't see any ...

[bji]

I will withhold my Creature thoughts for a bit

I'm voting Bji for a reason

I disagree
how about talking to me?

[bji]

Do you actually want to lynch Tex? Because it doesn't sound like you do. If you wanted to lynch him, a modkill should be just as good from your perspective; maybe even better. Because:

i don't really want a slot to be modkilled; it kinda ruins the integrity of the game imo

Fair enough; one of my only two losses came from a modkill, and I guess I'm ambivalent about them now as a result. If I'm going to lose to them, then I don't mind if they help me out either. This is assuming that a Tex death would be good for town; and I think it would.

[bji]

Oh right, you think I have a decent chance of flipping scum, but others don't.

Others don't have a decent chance of flipping scum?

Or others don't think you have a decent chance of flipping scum?

Which did you mean?

Also my lynch won't give any info if everybody goes like "let's lynch creature for info"

But not

everybody

will say that. I've never once seen a unanimous wagon. The dissention itself will provide info won't it?

[bji]

Also if you've seen consistency from everybody but Raya when there are like two scum, doesn't that mean scum can easily have consistency?

Not when the other is lurking, which is my thesis here. So let's kill Tex. Then if he flips scum, you're next. Seems like a game plan to me.

[bji]

Most of my reaction tests don't - how does anyone do those well?

I think most people in this game would say I am exactly the wrong person to answer this, but I think you just try to find places where you can invoke reactions from both your target and from other people, and then you bank them for later. They do not have to do anything on the day that you force the reaction, because they'll just be one small bit of evidence in the end that accumulates with and intertwines with other evidence that comes up later.

So yeah, Creature didn't follow your vote on me, but Creature is playing like he believes I am town, and I think he's aware of it, so I don't think he was likely to place a vote on me regardless of his alignment.

[bji]

creature why is sashaddin obvtown? The more they post the less I feel they're town

Sashaddin is the only player I absolutely will not lynch today.

[bji]

creature why is sashaddin obvtown? The more they post the less I feel they're town

Sashaddin is the only player I absolutely will not lynch today.

Please towncase the slot, quotes and all
I even would prefer a wall from you in this case

Later. I am at work right now and don't have the time to wall, believe it or not ...

[bji]

creature why is sashaddin obvtown? The more they post the less I feel they're town

Sashaddin is the only player I absolutely will not lynch today.

Please towncase the slot, quotes and all
I even would prefer a wall from you in this case

Later. I am at work right now and don't have the time to wall, believe it or not ...

Well actually I don't have any wall to post on this. I was going to try to draw something convincing up from his ISO but after re-reading it a few times I don't think I can. I just generally find him to be the least scummy player here, his approach is consistent and rational. His posts seem to be in three general categories: factual observations about the game, casual votes based on those observations, and discussions of game mechanics. If he is scum, he's not trying very hard. He hasn't tried to cast any unjustified doubt on any slots that I saw, and I liked his evidence in scum casing other players.

[bji]

sometimes the answer really is as simple as: it's just the lurkers

Sure - but that's what cops, vigs etc. are for.

Interesting. Why don't we just let the cops, vigs, etc, find all the scum for us then?

I agree with Skitter30, there is a good argument against the Tex slot based on the replace outs from that slot. Every bit of in-game evidence is just speculation because the scum are lying through their teeth all the time here, and spotting that is hard. But you can't lie about a replace out. It happens and is factual evidence. I wouldn't mind basing my Day 1 vote on such factual evidence when the alternative is all WIFOM.

And the fact that you replaced into that slot and immediately went after Clemency, doesn't really clean the slot in my opinion.

Post 510: the very first thing you do after entering the game is focus on Clem.

the poor soul that has to play the tex slot

Why do you say that?

I think it's obvious to anybody why Clem would write that. He obviously thinks that the slot is highly suspected because it's been twice replaced out on Day 1 and will have a hard time redeeming itself. Also given Clem's play style it's an expected thing for him to say -- he doesn't really make cases, just fluffy observations.

It looks like you're trying to pick an argument with Clemency; there is no good reason for starting a back-and-forth with him on his throwaway comment otherwise.

I would venture a guess that from your position, Clemency is possibly the easiest person to a) get to move off of your wagon with some pressure given that he's capitulated to just about every counterpoint in this game thus far, and b) get some momentum towards as a mislynch vote given that he hasn't shown the ability or interest in defending himself. Under pressure he's acted like he's defeated before the argument even starts and is expecting to be lynched (from my first exchange with him). That would probably be a good player to try to turn the attention to, especially if you think that you're likely to be able to make him look bad in every exchange, which it appears you try to do (post 513, post 514).

or, in other words - i don't particularly have a problem with the one post he did make so much as i find *the absence* of other posts scummy after he indicated he was eager to play this game

what do you think of my voting your slot?
(ie why are you pushing clemency in 510 and not, say, me?

I think your vote is lazy af. Flubber's been arounf the block, so his replace out is NAI. This guy didn't even know how to get in a game. When he came in he was overwhlemed and flaked. Again, NAI. But, I have you as a town lean on your overall activity.

So when Clemency votes your slot for its replace-outs, he's scummy? But when Skitter does it, it's just because she's lazy?

[bji]

Post 550 checks out. I'm very conflicted on this slot.

[bji]

[

I agree with Skitter30, there is a good argument against the Tex slot based on the replace outs from that slot. Every bit of in-game evidence is just speculation because the scum are lying through their teeth all the time here, and spotting that is hard. But you can't lie about a replace out. It happens and is factual evidence. I wouldn't mind basing my Day 1 vote on such factual evidence when the alternative is all WIFOM.

Yes, a replace out is an objective fact. No, it's not factual evidence of scum, as townies replace out all the time.

I do agree with alot of what you say but this doesn't quite ring true to me. First, my personal experience is that scum replaces more frequently. It is a sucky part of the game because it reduces the fidelity of the game that there can be this objective fact that takes non-gameplay information and affects the game, but it is true in my experience. Second, it makes more sense that Tex would replace out because he didn't want to play scum than anything else. He did express interest in joining, and he did pretty much noped out as soon as he saw his role PM and then saw how the game was going. This all seems so much more likely to come from scum than town.

You seem like a very good player though, if you are town and get lynched because of Tex then it will be a big blow to town.

Of course, if you are scum then I think we'll be lucky to get you on the Tex slot dirtiness. So your skill is null obviously when it comes to evaluating the value of lynching the slot.

[bji]

That's interesting, what are the numbers? How many town and scum replace outs have you seen? That's something I've thought about doing myself but never got around to.

I checked my 7 previous games, just going by slots there were 8/18 scum replaces and 21/60 town replaces. I didn't count multiple replaces to a slot, that was just too much work to count, but I don't recall seeing any particular disparity there between scum and town for that metric.

That's 44.4% scum slot replaces and 35.0% town slot replaces. So in my games, scum slots have replaced about 25% more often than town slots.

To be honest I expected an even larger difference before I did the math, but that's probably because I have replaced into three games and twice it was into a scum slot, so I think that fact made me feel like scum slot replaces were even more likely than they are.

[bji]

Do you think that Clemency has a weak town game?

This is my 7th game only, so take my word for it's worth. I don't see her play as weak, because those scums were really good in last game. In fact I've seen weak players and Clem is not one of them.

Sashaddin - when you wrote the above, did you expect Clem to play the game as he has played it?

Has he played it like you would expect him to if he were town?

[bji]

To be honest I expected an even larger difference before I did the math, but that's probably because I have replaced into three games and twice it was into a scum slot

, so I think that fact made me feel like scum slot replaces were even more likely than they are.

Exactly. People tend to make sweeping statements on such items as if they're fact, when really it's mostly confirmation bias from their own very limited experience.[/quote]

The numbers still show a 25% difference in my games. I'm not even certain that my read on Raya is 25% more likely to be correct than random chance.

[bji]

Sorry I screwed up that quote. Still waking up ...

[bji]

Hi Garmr and Persivul, join me on my Creature wagon. Then we can get a claim and see who is willing to hammer.

Alternately, I will be willing to lynch Clem depending on what Sash has to say.

[bji]

Did Reaper do anything lately?

He killed a deer.

[bji]

Sashaddin - when you wrote the above, did you expect Clem to play the game as he has played it?

Has he played it like you would expect him to if he were town?

Well yeah, when people want to experiment other play styles here they create another account to preserve their meta. Or sorry if I didn't understand the question well.

I don't get what you are saying here. Are you saying that when you played Clem previously he was using a different account? And that the Clem account is using a different play style than his other account?

He's playing as I expect from him: quick one or two-liners, fluff, never a wall. Good opinions though.

Can you point out some good opinions?

[bji]

Can you point out some good opinions?

I like: 62, 75, 140 in a special way. The whole series of 342 to 356 is what strikes me the most though, I don't think a scum would act and speak this way.
434 is... confusing.

I was basing myself on my Excel file because I remember next to nothing because of the pace of the game. I must admit Clemency hasn't produced much else than fluff since 356, which was some tome ago.

OK so this makes it very clear that you are simply emotionally reading Clem's posts to decide if he is town. I find that a very unsatisfying approach. Why are you so sure that Clem can't fake emotion?

This conflicts with your approach to Reaper in post 213 where you explicitly state that posts that are not scumhunting posts from Reaper cannot be used to get a read on him (Clemency gets to be read emotionally, but Reaper gets judged by his scum hunting?).

In post 225 you evaluate Raya on a different set of criteria - whether or not her arguments and counterpoints made sense to you.

While I admit that it is possible that you really are just applying what you think are the best evaluation criteria for each player separately, I do find it very odd that you give Clemency such a pass and don't really evaluate his play using the same or similar rules that you use for other players.

I am also still a bit miffed that you noted so clearly that Garmr's refusal to keep a hammer on me was inconsistent with your other games but you made no effort to explore that.

You have said some things in this game that had me convinced that you were a good guy, or at least that it was worth giving you one night to prove it, but rereading your posts in the light of your recent responses is just eroding my confidence away.

[bji]

I am also still a bit miffed that you noted so clearly that Garmr's refusal to keep a hammer on me was inconsistent with your other games but you made no effort to explore that.

No offence Bji but I never played with sash before so this strikes me as odd you would say this. So I went and looked through sash's posts and he never actually said my refusal to hammer is inconstant with my other games ( If you did check my other finished games you would find i'm not consistent on that anyway and do how I feel at the time.)

So can you show me a post you mixed up with or got this impression from?

Sure it was this quote from post 257:

"3- We got to a L-1 for a very short time. Usually L-1 provokes a lot of discussions and idea, but it didn't last this time."

[bji]

I am also still a bit miffed that you noted so clearly that Garmr's refusal to keep a hammer on me was inconsistent with your other games but you made no effort to explore that.

No offence Bji but I never played with sash before so this strikes me as odd you would say this. So I went and looked through sash's posts and he never actually said my refusal to hammer is inconstant with my other games ( If you did check my other finished games you would find i'm not consistent on that anyway and do how I feel at the time.)

So can you show me a post you mixed up with or got this impression from?

Sure it was this quote from post 257:

"3- We got to a L-1 for a very short time. Usually L-1 provokes a lot of discussions and idea, but it didn't last this time."

To clarify: I'm not suggesting he said that your removing the hammer was inconsistent with

your

previous games, that was never the point; it's that it's inconsistent with other games he's played previously, meaning that your behavior could be considered anomolous with his experience of the game in general; I don't know nor do I expect he knows whether or not it's consistent with your particular previous play nor whether that play in your previous games was town or scum at the time.

[bji]

Hi Garmr and Persivul, join me on my Creature wagon. Then we can get a claim and see who is willing to hammer.

Yuck.

Wagons are good for town for several reasons, but forcing claims isn't one of them. That's a scum mindset.

Sorry, I haven't played in quite some time, I thought it was the expected outcome of an L-1 position.

I thought everyone was so hot for "information". Why doesn't a claim qualify?

[bji]

Sorry, I haven't played in quite some time, I thought it was the expected outcome of an L-1 position.

I thought everyone was so hot for "information". Why doesn't a claim qualify?

The main info town is looking for is the person's reaction, who gets on the wagon, and whether a counter wagon forms.

Scum like to find roles.

So you actually believe the claim will be factual just because the person is at L-1?

If Raya/Creature is scum (which I think is more likely true than anything else I've seen this game) then the claim doesn't matter as it's a lie anyway - and if it's a lie that gets the slot off the hook today, it will almost certainly bury it later on. If Creature is town, then I'm assuming that he will be smart enough to make the claim that is best for town.

It's all information, man! And in my experience (which is limited and sparse, I admit), its real value can only be known as we approach the final days of the game and we can look back and see which players did things that were subtly contradictory in a way that would have scum motivation -- that's the only way that I haver personally ever actually identified scum beyond lucky guesswork.

[bji]

Please quote me one or more for each of the following categories:
-Factual observations about the game

Post 245: "This game is definitely the slowest I've played so far. "
Post 257: The entirety of post 257.
Post 292: "We need the lurkers to come out!!"
Post 295: "bji was voting twice here. Trump was right about voter fraud! "
Post 378: "1. We haven't heard of the TexdoesHalo slot for the entire game"
Post 594: "The slot is active and won't be mod-killed"
etc.

-Casual votes based on those observations

Post 291: "I'm with bji on this one. I personally prefer to see that guy lynched than modkilled, per 228. Poor reason to lynch but better than the contrary.
VOTE: TexdoesHalo"
Post 594: "UNVOTE: Persivul
The slot is active and won't be mod-killed, and the guy seems towny for the time I've to catch up."

(NOTE: this post came after my post which you are questioning, so it's not direct evidence for my explanation of my town read of Sash at that time; and it's also not a vote, but an unvote; but I am presenting it because it is consistent with my read of Sash handling his votes pretty casually - which to me means, they don't seem like they have much conviction or are meant to be very convincing to other players)

-Discussions of game mechanics

Post 226: "Killing the slot gives us one less lynch by putting us in Mylo Day 3 instead of Lylo Day 4. Can someone confirm this? I wanna know if I got it right."
Post 228: The entirety of post 228.
Post 229: The entirety of post 229.
Post 236: The entirety of post 236.
Post 238: The entirety of post 238.
etc.

-Evidence in scum casing other players

Post 99: "I thought bji appeared a lot more scummy to me than Clemency
Tunneling over a single idea, so soon, appears a lot more scummy than Clemency's posting."

(NOTE: this is against me, but I don't think it was an unreasonable way to view the Clemency/bji early exchange)

Post 264: "Before post 56, I was thinking bji to be town-ish, casual and pleasant. At 56 he's building a case on thin air. At the bottom of that post, he says: "I hereby state that Clemency is scum playing a chatty opener." Well it's bji I feel, sense, imagine as a wolf in sheep's clothing, chatting us away."

(NOTE: again against me, but it seems like rational town paranoia)

Post 264: "138 and 139 were equally bad for both protagonists. The discussion between them continues for a some posts and looks like an early SvS to me, engaging a lot but without real force:"

(NOTE: AGAIN against me but he walks back from it a little bit later)

And then also explain why the first and third of those are town-indicative.

I guess I don't see why scum would bother posting all of that; in my mind I envision a much more evil scum game plan than just making factual observations and discussing game mechanics. But now that I've gone through this exercise I do admit that my initial strong townread was based to some degree on just gut feels about how scum would behave, which is not so convincing after all. Obviously, however, eventually I should consider other positions.

I mean, I need to consider the fact that looking this townie because it evokes such a nonthreatening position could in fact be exactly the scum!Sashaddin game plan.

[bji]

Suppose he's cop. What's the claim that's best for town?

I don't know really. I could venture some guesses -- buy why would you want me to do that?

It is my assumption that those with power roles will know how to protect them and that an L-1 claim will not endanger them. If that is not the case, then I guess town sucks and we will probably lose.

[bji]

and now I think Reaper is scum

Why Irrelephant town? Why reaper scum? Why make me ask why instead of just explaining yourself at the start?

[bji]

VOTE: sashaddin
Seems very *I'm here and talking, which is towny, right?* and based on others' "hmm probably town but the read doesn't hold if I really think about it" I'd put my money on this slot being scum over the two lurker-y slots (which is not to say I townread either of those slots)

I am agreeing with you - see my previous post - that Sash's play does seem like that, and that it did draw me in until you made me explain it but -- why is it more likely to be scum than town? If you can't draw the conclusion that this play style is town because it "looks so town", why can you draw the conclusion that it is scum because it "looks so town"?

Reaper can still be busy-IRL scum

This is true, but I am increasingly frustrated that this slot is getting such a free pass. We are almost at the end of Day 1 and there is almost nothing to evaluate here.

Persivul can still be scum playing hard to avoid a wagon

This is true.

If bji or creature are scum I doubt I'll catch them out this game day

But creature isn't the only player to have generated content for that slot. I'm just glancing at your ISO and I notice that your first vote was for Raya and that you had reasons ... but you don't seem to be too concerned with those reasons any more, and aren't even paying close attention to what others have had to say about Raya (you asked Persivul about his Raya read as if he hadn't given a read, after he had already posted about Raya two or three times). Odd.

[bji]

I am quite convinced that in post game discussion I am either going to look like a genius or a complete idiot. Probably the latter

[bji]

Are you townreading anyone else for not getting their hands dirty (maybe you are but shame on you if so)?

Yes, Clemency, to a large degree. Shame on me!

[bji]

does not read to me like "casual voting based on factual observations"
it looks like careful voting coming from someone who doesn't know how to vote for town without getting attention for it

Well we just read that stuff differently I guess.

[bji]

If there's another consensus scumread besides me, it's obviously not getting pushed at all.

Why do you call my scumread on your slot a "consensus scumread"?

[bji]

cool, be paranoid about me after creature flips red
till then my read has just changed. *shrug*

Why? You wouldn't find it odd if you were someone else reading this game?

[bji]

If there's another consensus scumread besides me, it's obviously not getting pushed at all.

Why do you call my scumread on your slot a "consensus scumread"?

because it's not just you, it's Persivul (who most hates my playstyle than actually reads me scum), Garmr (who already misread me in some other game) and Clemency (who isn't even taking the game serious).

But Persivul thinks your wagon is two-thirds crap.

[bji]

And what makes those positions "consensus scumreads" instead of just "scumreads"? They're all for different reasons. What's the consensus?

[bji]

I don't do PbPA

Do it for town.

[bji]

Clemency, similarly, is using his vote to grow wagons and increase pressure on slots when others provide strong scumcases.

"Why not?" isn't a reaction to a strong scum case.

Why can't you "why not" a vote intended to grow wagons and increase pressure on slots when others provide strong scumcases?

[bji]

it's just that a bunch of nothing is happening

I think you are not reading hard enough. Is there going to be a point in the game where you do start reading hard enough? Just give us a warning when it's about to happen ... so I don't go into cardiac arrest from the shock ...

[bji]

A question to the more experienced players: is there a role (town or scum or other) that would make only voting but not talking much a valuable play? I almost think I remember reading something about a role that can only post a certain amount ... it's so weird that Clem just sheeps votes and then pops in to say that nothing is happening (apparently only votes to sheep is "something happening?").

[bji]

Of course Sash has basically confirmed that this is how Clem plays so ... meh ...

[bji]

UNVOTE:

I checked prior games of Clem, 2 town and 1 scum. Scum game he posted very infrequently and then replaced out. Town games read much like this one, including one very specific item.

So you think he's incapable of changing his style? Or of faking his style to fool the other player(s) who have played with him previously (Sash is the only one I know of).

Your reasons for joining the Clem wagon were bad and your reasons for getting off of it are even worse ...

Not AI btw, just an observation.

[bji]

Are you against meta in general, or just this particular case?

I am against certain kinds of meta in general. I do not find evidence that some player behaved a certain way in a certain game, especially when the impetus to draw that conclusion was looking for evidence to support an already questionable position, as compelling or worthwhile. It also takes more work than just reading the current game which I don't think is a fair burden to place on someone, to go and verify your argument by reading other games.

However, I do allow my own personal experience not with players, but with play states, to influence my judgement and set my direction in scum hunting. Things that have worked for me in the past I will do, even though my only evidence that this thing works is meta since it came from other games. But I don't expect these things to be particularly convincing to other players because of what I wrote in my previous paragraph.

[bji]

Yep. Creature gives thoughts, but the way he does it is really easy for scum to fake, and easy to reverse later.

Faking a long PbPA post isn't also easy to do?

Faking a long PbPA post as scum isn't any easier or harder than genuine-ing a long PbPA post as town. Which means that the ease is not the point.

The point is that you need to prove to the rest of town that you are town, if you are town. Persivul's request was game relevant and gives you an opportunity to do that (of course it will never be full proof but it will be evidence ...). So do it.

[bji]

not really feeling scum!creature rn; i'm not very interested in voting him today

Who are you interested in voting? You've been wishy-washy on everyone.

[bji]

Do you still scum read me Sashaddin?

[bji]

Plus it looks like you are trying to white knight (?) me, which I find odd... but thanks!

OK well then I give up. I thought we had something going but I guess not, I cannot see how you post that if we were on the same page that I thought we were on.

In post 379, you said (to me):

"If we were two cops interrogating a suspect, you'd be the one in his face asking the questions while I'd be the one standing in the corner observing and analyzing the exchange."

I thought this was a soft claim of cop and also a signal to me that you thought we are both town (or wanted me to think that you thought we are both town). In fact I came into this game thinking, "OK I'm vanilla town, one thing I could do that would be useful is try to make stuff happen, even if its controversial, so that the real cop, if there is one, doesn't have to dirty their hands, but can stay away from the fray and make observations that help with the targeting." Then you posted that and I thought you were recognizing exactly that scenario and transmitting to me that you were cop. When I said later that I would not lynch you under any circumstances that was me trying to signal to you that I got the message.

Of course, I did not know whether or not your soft claim was real as town or fake as scum just trying to buddy me. I intended to decide that tomorrow depending on whether or not you made any signals then indicating that you had a guilty and if so deciding whether that guilty was more likely to be a true town guilty or a fake scum guilty (hoping that I'd be able to tell the difference).

At this point though, if you're going to just openly accuse me of white knighting you, then I guess our little understanding was all in my head and in fact I am an idiot and not a genius.

Bonus: I thought that Irrelephant had figured this out and this is why he was pushing me to explain my read on you, which would be scummy because if he perceived this understanding then as town he really would just watch it and not try to interfere. And then when he decided to start scum reading you, I was convinced that if you really were a cop then Irrelephant would have to be scum.

But screw all that. I'm back to square zero with you and Irrelephant now.

[bji]

wow we out here playing mafia in 2018 while bji's out here playing 4d chess in 3062

pedit: also true lololol

Yeah I even crumbed it too, twice.

[bji]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi-RaaG-yx4

VOTE: Creature

Wait is that a kill? Let me check ...

[bji]

OK I think that's hammer: { bji, ReaperOfSouls, Clemency, Garmr, Persivul }

[bji]

I don't think there is any hammer today that would not have frustrated/annoyed some people.

[bji]

I mean he given intent or a chance to claim or anything

Well not to defend Persivul but Creature did say pretty clearly that he would not claim.

With regards to announcing intent, yeah that was odd.

[bji]

Well, since I am dying:

bji, your consistency tell is complete garbage

What's a consistency tell?

[bji]

I see consistency from everyone except Raya in this game.

Oh well; I meant that.

Word of advice: probably better to make your points before you die than after, if you think they might save your life.

[bji]

I see consistency from everyone except Raya in this game.

Oh well; I meant that.

Word of advice: probably better to make your points before you die than after, if you think they might save your life.

The problem is if I called your case shitty you'd just say it's another reason I'm scum

That's Mafia (TM)!!!

Anyway why wouldn't you want to do that? If I am scum then wouldn't you want me to be putting down bad cases left and right?

[bji]

I mean he given intent or a chance to claim or anything

He simply should not have hammered because it was pretty obvious no one wanted to end the day (besides Garmr who's actually scum)

Why is Garmr scum?

If you really want to be useful in twilight then please make some cases that we can use, not just accusations. Perhaps we're not all as smart as you and haven't seen everything you've seen.

[bji]

I don't do PbPA, but I can point out something you should watch for

But if you do, scum can just not do it so ... probably better not to say, and let us figure it out.

[bji]

like, I expect you atleast to try pushing my scumreads tomorrow rather than just discarding them as townreads/ignore them.

I know how frustrating it is to be mislynched and then have everyone forget/ignore your reads. So I promise that if you flip town I will carry your torch as best I can, as long as it makes sense ...

[bji]

Cool, do you agree that Reaper's vote on me seems bad and he has been coasting?

Well now we're getting into an area where I start to worry about being manipulated if you do not flip town.

However, that being said, yes I do, and I thought that before you said it.

[bji]

It was, in fact, the singular reason that I had to possibly jump off the wagon. But I was just playing odds -- odds that the things I found suspicious about Raya were balanced against odds that Reaper is just coasting and happy to leave his vote on a mislynch while he took care of his IRL stuff.

But then I also had to consider that maybe he didn't think your lynch would ever happen and if he was going to leave his vote parked while taking care of IRL, he might as well leave it on a scum partner for distancing purposes.

[bji]

OK so you can just call me Creature's Conscience today.

VOTE: ReaperOfSouls

Skitter did not target me.

[bji]

OK so you can just call me Creature's Conscience today.

VOTE: ReaperOfSouls

Skitter did not target me.

Nah, there are better targets than Reaper.

VOTE: Sashaddin

Well Creature thought you were town, skitter who was town thought Creature has good town reads, and Creature who skitter thinks has good town reads read you as town in the end despite your quickhammering him.

So ... I'm willing to accept you as town without significant evidence to the contrary.

That being said, why would you go after Sash now?

[bji]

I'm calling it Garmr/Reaper with a smaller chance of Sash being scum

Like you said about Creature. I'm pretty sure it's not Reaper, so could go with Garmr or Sash. Since a push on Sash was beginning at end of day, she's a better candidate.

Reaper hasn't really done alot to deflect suspicion though. I can see Creature calling Reaper scum because of Reaper's slot on his wagon and his coasting. I can't see why you would, with the same evidence, call Reaper town. So what's the reasoning there?

As I said before, I am not sure my reads on Garmr can be trusted. But soon enough I may have to just start trusting them.

Sash is a 'he' I think.

The player who quickhammered and stopped the push on Sash was you though. So by the logic of 'a push on Sash was beginning at end of day', going after Sash for that reason means you sort of created your own reason for going after Sash. That's odd.

[bji]

That's odd.

That's actually really odd.

UNVOTE: ReaperOfSouls
VOTE: Persivul

[bji]

That being said I dislike the position of people being in a rush to sheep creature read an to be creatures conscience it's weird and doesn't have any town motivation. Both bji and Percival are guilty of this somewhat. But bji is somewhat more open about it while Percival is not trying openly portray himself but doing it anyway. I wouldn't do these actions as town or scum because it's poor play. but I don't really see the town motivation behind them while the scum motivation is a excuse to vote someone with out your own reasoning. Bji has his own opinion in there so it's less likely a excuse to vote.

OK well I think it's good play, so whatever. Creature was definitively town and also recognized by another player who was definitively town as having likely good reads. So I think his reads deserve some attention.

Also, town will win because all of town worked together to win. Working with your dead partners by taking their reads seriously would seem to be a part of that. The alternative is that we all just think we're the awesome ones who will win because our own evaluations are so much better than everyone else's. Maybe that's the game your playing? Or maybe you're not town so you don't care either way?

[bji]

@ bji:
Ah, sorry I messed up your mind about that cop thing, I wasn't soft claiming anything, this was like something I've seen in the movies (good cop-bad cop). I don't have your rhetoric and English is not my first language so I can't have your style.

English is not your first language? Could have fooled me!

[bji]

UNVOTE: Persival

Just got to the claim. Still catching up.

[bji]

Town loud cop seems like it would be fun to play. Why would two players replace out of it?

I only drew cop once and was super excited to play it. Unfortunately the game ended because a town player threw the game by intentionally getting modkilled, right when I had the scum lined up and ready to shoot.

[bji]

I think bji's town and he has a vote on me. With two scum and 4 to lynch, it was too dangerous to leave it like that.

My vote wasn't going to stand, I was just reaction testing you and others. As you saw just a few posts before I said I was willing to call you town lacking further evidence. Just about any explanation for why you picked Sash after quickhammer would have probably satisfied me.

If you really are cop then thanks for what you've done, but I think it's not super cool to think you finished your job and just claim and leave. You should work harder with the power given to you.

@Mod

We need Reaper's participation now more than ever. Please be as brutal on him as necessary to ensure that. Thank you.

[bji]

As this is my first game other than a newbie one. Rule set? Where can I find it?

I have never seen a "rule set" on here, but maybe there is one. Someone with more experience could point it out if it exists.

I didn't even know there were such things as Loud Cop and Loud Doctor. You kinda learn new stuff every time you play ...

[bji]

I'm not scum if I claimed scum I would be banned and that would be silly but just lynch me anyway.

Yeah, there's no way I believe that town!Garmr gets this salty

without even a single vote

on him. Sounds like scum trying to fake town frustration, but not doing it well.

You don't know town garmr then because it's part of my reputation.

I would think that repeatedly self-voting as town, i.e. playing against wincon, would get you banned.

It doesn't

I feel that I honestly could find 10 instances today where Garmr has used contradictory or illogical positions to try to prevent his lynch, this is just one of them.

Lots of comments that seem more concerned about not being lynched than scum hunting or helping town win the game from his lynch.

I am now deciding between { Garmr, Sash } and { Garmr, Clem }. Irrelephant's recent postings seem very unnecessary and thus unlikely for a Garmr partner.

[bji]

I am now deciding between { Garmr, Sash } and { Garmr, Clem }. Irrelephant's recent postings seem very unnecessary and thus unlikely for a Garmr partner.

Sorry to be a bit clearer because that was poorly phrased:

Irrelephant's recent postings seem very unnecessary for a Garmr partner, and thus unlikely for a Garmr partner.

[bji]

Creature thought it was { Garmr, Reaper } with a smaller chance of { Garmr, Sash }.

Skitter didn't think Garmr was scum and would have voted { Reaper, Sash }.

So out of respect for my predecessors, I'll tend towards { Garmr, Sash }.

Garmr is a lame duck at this point?

[bji]

I agree he's worth ignoring
Just to be clear before we move on, is there any chance Persivul is scum here? No, right? I can't think of a way he's scum (especially if garmr does indeed flip motion detector) unless town was way outgunned here

I thought it through very heavily, and I can't find any scenario where Persivul's play at the beginning of Day 2 is scum. It would require one of two things: a) I'm scum and he and I cooperated on how I would pretend to force his hand by voting him, or b) I am town and he was very good at reacting to my vote to allow him to fake claim with near perfect reasoning. I know I'm not scum, so from my perspective it must be (b). You will have to decide for yourself if it's (a) or (b) (or something else I didn't think of). It is certainly possible that he had it all planned out, there were two days to think of it after all.

If Persivul is scum I don't mind losing to him. I know it's kinda crappy but I find losing to certain players not much worse than winning, and I find losing to certain other players alot worse than that. Mostly lurkers. I hate losing to lurkers.

Honest question: is there any value in Perivul saying who he would target tonight? Is there any value in us playing a sub-game of voting on who Persivul should target? It hedges a little bit against him being scum, I would think.

[bji]

I agree he's worth ignoring
Just to be clear before we move on, is there any chance Persivul is scum here? No, right? I can't think of a way he's scum (especially if garmr does indeed flip motion detector) unless town was way outgunned here

I thought it through very heavily, and I can't find any scenario where Persivul's play at the beginning of Day 2 is scum. It would require one of two things: a) I'm scum and he and I cooperated on how I would pretend to force his hand by voting him, or b) I am town and he was very good at reacting to my vote to allow him to fake claim with near perfect reasoning. I know I'm not scum, so from my perspective it must be (b). You will have to decide for yourself if it's (a) or (b) (or something else I didn't think of). It is certainly possible that he had it all planned out, there were two days to think of it after all.

Again my wall was confusing, sorry. I meant that if he is scum, from my perspective it would have to be the (b) scenario. And so from my perspective, either he is town or he played me. I think he's town.

[bji]

It should resolve tomorrow. Unless scum have a RB, they have to kill me tonight. If garmr's a scum MD, it's doubtful they also have a RB.

From a game solving perspective, you could still be scum. I mean, if you are scum then of course you'd just claim there was a RB tomorrow even if there wasn't. If you are still alive tomorrow your alignment isn't really any more certain than it was today.

I draw my final read on you from what I saw at the beginning of Day 2, and from Reaper's confirmation of your target. The possibility of Reaper being scum and lying about your target seems like a very distant possibility. The possibility of Day 2 starting the way it did if you were scum seems nearly as remote.

Again, do we vote on your target? Does it even matter? Never been in this position and I don't know what the groupthink is on how this is supposed to proceed.

[bji]

I don't think there's a point to voting on his target. He will either get a useful result or he won't. The only reason it would matter who he targeted is if there was an ascetic townie or something

If he's town he's going to die anyway, so it doesn't matter who he targets, so in that scenario it won't help or hurt anything, and the votes are, you know, more "information".

If he's scum, then I'd rather let the majority choose his target since he will live to tomorrow and it will take away some of his ability to cleverly craft his outcome. If we force him to target town, then he'd have to either townfirm a townie for us, or fake a scum result that would then at least let that townie know that he is definitively scum.

All that being said, I have on other occasions tried to manage a sub-vote game and people tend to just ignore it or not do it. But I am willing to try.

[bji]

Of course if he is alive, he will probably just claim roleblocked.

Given that all confirmed roles thus far are Loud, would it be likely for a roleblocker, if one exists, to also be Loud?

[bji]

garmr will be dying today so he will be the only scum if he is scum, so he can only target town if he is scum, so it doesn't matter who he targets
If scum leave him alive for the wifom or because they can roleblock him, it also doesn't matter who he targets
If he dies, it also doesn't matter who he targets

Well I don't agree that "it doesn't matter who he targets" if he is scum. Persivul seems clever enough to maximize the value of a faked target.

But I guess this is a dead end, so I will stop here.

VOTE: Garmr

I believe, but am not certain, that this is L - 1:

Garmr: { Garmr, Clemency, bji }

[bji]

Reaper could be godfather, but with Loud Cop and Loud Doctor in the mix I do not know whether or not this would be considered balanced.

[bji]

Neither, though I have many finished games onsite. A godfather in a micro with a cop and no other investigative roles is basically a setup where "if the cop checks the godfather, town loses" which isn't a setup that would get approved unless I'm just pants-on-head when it comes to how roles work.

In Mini Normal 1744 I was godfather and town had only Town Doctor, Town Roleblocker, and Ascetic Town Cop. And yes, the town cop got exactly one target and it was me, so town did lose.

I agree it's a crappy setup.

Godfather with Loud Doctor and Loud Cop would be especially bad because the godfather would know who inno'd him or protected him so he'd have the advantage both of being godfather and of knowing who on town has power roles when he got targeted.

[bji]

Clemency:
post 895 tells me to lych him regardless of alignment

But you've played with him. You said so yourself several times. You rated his town game as good. It makes no sense that you would consider his own admission of being bad in lylo over any of your own person evaluations of his game.

This entire time you've acted like you knew clem was town from the get-go. Just nothing about any way you've treated him or talked about him has had any hint of suspicion. Even when your words say you are suspicious they are generally pretty shallow and don't seem very committal, example:

"his vote/unvote/vote makes think think he could be bussing a scum!garmr"

860 is ugh.

I mean I agree with that, but what is AI about it?

Irrrelephant:
either town a a very good scum game. I could go on more if needed.

In Day 1 you made all this noise about not being able to make Day 1 reads and needing flips to make real evaluations. And

this

is what we get?

I don't think you ever had real reads to begin with and were coasting.

At some point today I am going to do a deep analysis of Sash/Garmr interactions.

[bji]

I mean I agree with that, but what is AI about it?

What does AI mean again?

AI means "alignment indicative". I see Clem's post as bad from scum as well as bad from town. I'm asking you why you think it's more likely to come from scum just because it's bad.

In response to 892

Irrrelephant:
either town

*OR

a very good scum game. I could go on more if needed.

Post 826. Irrelephant defends the rep of Garmr. Could be a team, but I agree that's first-level thinking. So he could be town or WIFOMing as scum in a risky move. Also, claiming to have been visited by a nightkilled guy is a weird coincidence.

Hey Irrelephant, would you categorize your post as 'defending the rep of Garmr'? I wouldn't.

But the nightkilled doctor targeted

someone

. So are you saying that any player who would have claimed to have been targeted by Skitter was the subject of a coincidence? Or just Irrelephant?

Same in 845 and 851 and 887.

I just see town paranoia. The only risk to town at this point is that Persivul is somehow scum which would pretty much lose the game for town. So I think it's natural to want to feel confident that Persivul is not scum and that Garmr really is scum and I see Irrelephant following alot of the same thought processes I have as I have been reading today's events. Just kind of double-checking to make sure that we're not missing something obvious that would let us be beaten by a scum!Persivul.

In 890, his premise is that Skitter's protection was true, if it isn't the whole post is worth zero. Again some wifom.

And why is Irrelephant creating this fictitous result from Skitter? Skitter's not around to confirm it, so ... what does it buy Irrelephant to lie about being targeted? Yes he did say that skitter's target should be +town for him, but he knows that this is weak stuff (and says it) and it's not really going to convince anyone of anything. Nobody seems to be too excited to use Creature or Skitter's reads, besides me, so who is Irrelephant supposed to be appealing to with a fake target claim from skitter? Me?

910 is where the sparks fly all around, targeting many people. Are those true reads or clever scum at work? I don't like walls for this.

I liked 910 and it points the finger at me several times. It's a good post.


So, bji, that's why I still can't tell if he's green or red. I'm not elephantshitting you. [/quote][/quote]

[bji]

Whoops screwed up the editing, the last line of post 991 wasn't meant to be there, it's a floating quote from Sash.

[bji]

Go for it. I will follow your game plan, with one minor exception: I prefer to lynch Clem over Irrelephant if Sash isn't scum. If you want to talk more about that we can before you lynch. I don't have really great reasons except that I personally don't read Irrelephant's play on D2 as defending Garmr, and I don't like losing to scum who rely on not posting content as a way to slip through, which is what Clem would be if scum. But I would of course heavily re-read and make more significant analysis if the choice actually does present itself.

[bji]

i came here to have a good time and i am honestly feeling so attacked right now
they ask you how you are and you have to say you're fine but you're not fine

JOJO

Arc 5 is my fave arc I been waiting for so long to see it animated.

Clem was posturing as feeling under attack and instead of pressing the attack Garmr defused the pressure by starting to talk about anime or whatever that was. It was RVS though so maybe means nothing.

I dislike how she calls this interaction a town vs town but proceeds to call clemecy's reaction null and over mutiple posts. As seen in posts 93 and post 95. If it's a town vs town you wouldn't be calling the slot null. She then never gives any reason to think why clemency slot may be town. I have a theory the reason she said it was town vs town was because

she wanted to avoid conflict with clemency because his the type of player that will drag you into the spot light.

I found this comment odd at the time but I let it slide because I thought maybe Garmr knew something about Clem that I didn't. At the time Clem did not seem anything like a player that would drag anyone into the spot light. This has proven true for the rest of the game as well.

It's a very odd opinion for Garmr to express. Doesn't sit right with me, like Garmr felt like he needed to say something about his scum partner and made this up completely. Just a feeling though, obviously Garmr could have just been making stuff up to make stuff up.

I had the same thoughts as Garmr re:Raya involving herself in the early argument (mindmeld this early is reason enough to lightly townread garmr)

. raya's early play seemed like an easy way to get townread, by playing peacemaker, and I think her explanation since then has been overly long because she's making it up as she goes
that's my whole read on both of them

This would be a pretty ballsy way to open the game, claiming to have the same thoughts as your scum partner. It's an early post too and very easy to spot in ISO.

As a general observation, the only part of this game that Clemency seemed the least bit involved in was when I pressured him early. His reaction was pretty over the top. Other players noticed this (Garmr noted it too, not sure what that means). While defending himself he

never

called me or my motivations scummy, so why get so upset over someone you don't even perceive as scummy putting pressure on you early in the game?

Post 98 - 101 and beyond, Clem and Garmr have lots of interactions but really none of it is meaningful. Look at their ISOs together, you will see lots of talking back and forth but they never really talk about anything significant. They talk like they've already been talking to each other for a while (like in scum chat) and are comfortable just going casually back and forth ...

I'll keep my thought on irrelphant to myself .

?

???

I'll admit this made me laugh, but why keep your thoughts about me to yourself?

Because I'm still deciding things and don't want it to affect your play to much.

I didn't like this at the time. I didn't see what you would laugh at there. Just because Garmr made three question marks and Irrelephant made one? Then Garmr's explanation is I'm still deciding things, Irrelephant accepts it and ... never returns to it later to ask "so have you decided anything yet". Something does feel off about this interaction.

You’re both too angry
Either planned theater or genuine on both ends

This feels like a set-up against me. Irrelephant either wants Garmr to be town read (if I flip town) or me to be scum read (when Garmr flips scum). Doesn't really follow up on it though so could just be a passing thought?

not gonna lie i'm with the 'phant on this one
VOTE: Reaper

not gonna lie i'm with the 'phant on this one
VOTE: Reaper

l-1

oh jesus nvm UNVOTE:
i'm not leaving my vote on l-1 right before sleeping

I called Garmr scummy previous to this because his fear of keeping the hammer on me (one of his top scum reads) seemed off. Now Clem is sort of backing Garmr's position by also acting like it's a big deal to leave someone on L-1.

either way i want him to have to talk more

Clemency never before or since seemed to care about Reaper talking. This post and the few before it by Clem feel like trying to act like he really voted Reaper for a reason. Feels fake.

welp i'm just gonna keep sheeping the confident players
i can't really refute #353
UNVOTE: Reaper
VOTE: Creature

Just a few posts before he had sheeped irrelephant to get on the Reaper wagon, supposedly got all freaked out because the vote was L-1 (which it turns out it wasn't even) and then unvoted and a little while later decided to sheep me onto Creature's wagon. Seems to have completely forgotten about Reaper.

Post 413 to 429 Garmr and Irrelephant are working at cross purposes. Garmr is setting up a hammer on Creature and Irrelephant is concluding Creature is town.

Post 505 I feel like Garmr is casting shade on Irrelephant.

Also if I had reads like yours and with the cases you presented I would be personally voting creature over clemency but that's me.

I'm getting very tired of reading ISO. Let me just say that Clem doesn't say alot this game but something about his interactions with Garmr feel alot weirder to me than Irrelephant's interactions with Garmr.

[bji]

But my main point is: what did Clemency do better than I did?

Interacted naturally with Garmr.

You and I seem to have opposing viewpoints on this; I don't think Clem's interactions with Garmr were very natural, as I posted above.

What about Garmr getting so angry when I asked Sash what he thought of Garmr? That doesn't seem like the kind of thing that Garmr, as scum, would want to be seen as having done later after flipping scum.

OTOH, as a mark against Sash:

sorry i'm just pissed off since this shit happens every game
i don't believe anything in rvs or near it is a scumtell ever

Sash had just played a game with Clemency and never even found Clem's statement here interesting or worthy of comment. Clem seems to have expressed the sentiment earlier that his last game was won by his town team and he liked the game. Here he says that he's pissed off because he gets pressured early "every game". Sash doesn't even bother to comment. I looked at the game that Clem and Sash played together (Mini Normal 2040) and Clem has no votes on him in any vote count up to his NK. So from Sash's perspective Clem's attitude must have seemed forced. But no reaction from Sash.

Also there's the thing I pointed out Day 1, where Sash noticed that Garmr dropped the L-1 really quickly and that this was contrary to what he thought would happen, but again, he doesn't explore it.

Sash has been playing like he doesn't really care who is scum. Which is why he is a top scumread.

OK so I know I'm all over the place here in my explanations, but all of the above is why my reads go:

Scum { Sashaddin, Clemency, Irrelephant } Town

[bji]

I think you expect me to do what you would do yourself.

I expect you if you are town to play the game like a town player would. If you do not, you don't get a free pass.

I didn't give much attention to that "feel pressured early" comment, so I didn't go back to that previous game to read it like you did. You seem to like to put a lot of energy in this. I wish I had your time.

I did not go back to read that game until last night when I examined ISOs to try to solidify my opinions. In terms of putting time into the game, I certainly did not want to do an ISO re-read, it is tiring, but I feel I owe it to the integrity of the game to put the effort in.

But hey, Clemency saying he's pressured when he's not gives ME scum points? That's...weird...

Like I said, it is just more evidence that you weren't really scum hunting.

Also, Creature and Skitter both scum read you. That means something to me.

[bji]

Yeah, if elephant is scum, from that reads list we'd expect partner to be in:
{bji, creature}
{reaper, persivul}

But the only one left there is bji.

So, scum looks like irrel/bji or garmr/sash.

Do you see any other possibilities?

Bji, sash. Sash,Clem if Is possible but highly unlikely, That's why don't mind lynching sash right now If i'm wrong I get to clear my name pretty much.

Could be distancing from Clem, calling him scum, but clearly angling to lynch Sash.

(Could be distancing from me too, but I'm not scum so ...)

Sash - if you are town, being mislynched is not the worst thing so stop acting like it is. Start trying to contribute to figuring out who the other scum besides Garmr is so that if you flip town tomorrow we can win in LYLO.

[bji]

Btw Just going to claim I'm a motion detector I motion detected Ele there was no movement which is why ele is low on my list to lynch.

Garmr's feeling pressure. He fakes a detection on irrel. Assuming garmr's scum, why does he choose irrel?

I'm not sure I'm thinking this through properly, but if he's going to fake being motion detector, if he chose a town then he might accidentally choose a power role that targeted and then he'd be caught lying, at least by that player?

[bji]

so stop acting like it is

The only thing that got me salty so far is when you said" and this is all we get" when it was clear I was typing in a hurry. I must admit that since that moment, I have tried to decide if I'd OMGUS you or let it pass I like I did.

It's not a character judgement; don't take it so personally. It's a comment about how you were playing the game. Sliding through Day 1 saying that you can't really make reads over and over again and that you need a flip before you can really start analyzing, and then not analyzing on Day 2, anyone can and ought to recognize that could be scummy play.

[bji]

I meant faking the target. Assume that he actually is a MD.

Why would be be an actual MD? He's a lying scum. Who knows what power role he has, if any.

[bji]

That's lynch: { Garmr, bji, Persivul, ReaperOfSouls }

[bji]

Persivul, why would Sash kill Reaper instead of you? Even if he were roleblocker, I think your level of play is higher than everyone else's here so I would expect Sash to want to get rid of you instead of a player (Reaper) who wasn't really contributing anything to town's chances of winning other than being a warm body.

Furthermore, you are I were both agreeing to vote Sash today. So Sash could predict that he would already have two firm votes today, and only needing one more to be lynched, it seems that his only hope would be to eliminate you and hope that two other town besides me wouldn't vote him.

Additionally, your elimination was expected and so wouldn't really give much info about who the scum was.

The question then becomes, is Sash really ballsy enough to count on the above conclusions and do the opposite to throw us off his track? No offense Sash, but I don't think so.

In my opinion scum is either Clem or Irrelephant.

I need to read more to see which player was more likely to kill Reaper than you. Again, busy with work, not sure when I will be able to do this, probably tonight.

[bji]

I guess I have to consider that Persivul's continual shade-throwing in my direction could potentially come from scum trying to save the easier mislynch for lylo

How does scum!Persivul arrange a loud target of Reaper and a fake claim as loud cop? The only way scum!Persivul could safely claim any loud target of Reaper is if his role is loud. So what loud scum role do you think that scum!Persivul actually has?

Furthermore, why do you think that scum!Persivul would fake a loud cop claim? That's a gutsy move, there could have been a real cop (and if he really was faking the loud cop claim, then there

still could

be a real cop).

Keep in mind also that by faking the loud cop claim, scum!Persivul would also be eliminating his ability to use whatever actual targeting role he has.

[bji]

bji, your turn.

I'm Vanilla Town.

[bji]

Or, obviously, someone (or some ones) from town lied, because they want to protect their true role.

[bji]

yeah but I'm pretty sure town would tell the truth here, unless their hidden PR is somehow gamewinning in a way that hasn't come up yet. Can't think of anything.

A factual counterclaim to Persivul wins for town, but only if claimed today. Because we just lynch the claimer and then when they flip town, we lynch Persivul tomorrow for the win.

So until someone counterclaims, Persivul is confirmed cop.

Sorry I am thinking through all of this out loud. I am sure Persivul understood all of this before he even asked for claims, which is why he asked for them.

[bji]

I targeted Irrel last night. I wanted the claims because there are some roles other than RB that would explain my lack of result.

I thought you thought cop roles were for sorting lurkers?

[bji]

Sorry guys I am suddenly the logjam here as I have been kinda busy IRL for the past few days. I still intend to do another ISO re-read before making any vote committment. If Clem is scum and he wins, then oh well. I hardly consider a loss against someone who doesn't really interact with the game much to be a loss. Before a re-read my gut feel is:

Scum

Irrelephant

Sash

Clem

Town

[bji]

i mean i'm just really wondering on why garmr would lie about his motion detect target when he actually was a scum motion detector
was that like a bus attempt or what

That does deserve some closer inspection. On first blush it just reads like a complete mistake by Garmr whose motivation was to give some actual reasoning for his read on Irrelephant -- motivation could be trying not to be too suspicious for town reading his partner:

Btw Just going to claim I'm a motion detector I motion detected Ele there was no movement

which is why ele is low on my list to lynch.

I think the following needs some investigation too:

Tbh in the game state the way it is we won anyway so it doesn't really matter if I slipped to much.

[bji]

Sorry guys I am suddenly the logjam here as I have been kinda busy IRL for the past few days. I still intend to do another ISO re-read before making any vote committment. If Clem is scum and he wins, then oh well. I hardly consider a loss against someone who doesn't really interact with the game much to be a loss. Before a re-read my gut feel is:

Scum

Irrelephant

Sash

Clem

Town

WTF, a day ago you said Irrel or clem. I reread and came to agree with that. Now you're saying sash before clem?

Sorry I keep flip flopping in my mind on Clem vs. Sash. I guess there is some laziness involved because I keep hoping that we don't have to make that choice. And as I said that list was just a gut feel. I will give proper reads soon.

[bji]

There is alot to reread but I did notice something very interesting:

Garmr and Irrelephant talk to each other *alot*.
Garmr and Clem talk to each other *some*.
Garmr and Sash talk to each other *never*.

Still reading ...

[bji]

Meta reading Bji and realizing he endgames as scum in his most recent game (2016) makes me more wary of him than I was previously

It's worse than that. I've endgamed in

every

scum game I've ever played, and never lost as scum. Of course, the sample size is small (3 games) ...

FWIW, I've only lost as town once, and I was NK'd early that game.

So full disclosure: I've never been to LYLO as town, and I've always been to LYLO as scum.

[bji]

There is alot to reread but I did notice something very interesting:

Garmr and Irrelephant talk to each other *alot*.
Garmr and Clem talk to each other *some*.
Garmr and Sash talk to each other *never*.

Still reading ...

This is something I’ve noticed but switch my name with bji’s
Maybe it’s still just sash???
Paranoia is real

Yes my plan was to go back and qualify Garmr's interactions with all players using that same metric, but ostensibly I am supposed to be

working

right now, and I keep getting interrupted, and I can't focus well ...

[bji]

Bji can you explain again why you were so intent on asking NAI questions of multiple players at gamestart?
And why you were townreading Garmr D1?

I only play once or twice a year at most, so every time I play I only kind of have a vague recollection of what worked and didn't work in previous games. My play skill may not be advancing very quickly because of this, and I may not be making optimum plays as a result.

I started a long wall here explaining myself but I know no one wants to read it. To summarize though (still a wall though, meh):

- I do think that getting people to talk about each other, and to defend against attacks (even really reachy ones), etc, is what town should be doing

- I do think that making scum feel like they need to be careful because their every play is going to be scrutinized is valuable, as I think it can lead to the kind of paranoia that you want scum to have because it could lead to them making mistakes. Of course not knowing who is scum and who is town, I have to apply that to every player equally, which does lead to attacks on town but ... even those can provide clues later in the game.

- Early on I was mostly trying to get Clem to talk about Sash and Sash to talk about Clem because I just thought it could be useful to get people talking, especially about each other. I also went on the offensive against Clem to test his reaction and others' reactions.

- My push on you was honestly calculated just as I said it. I wanted to make you uncomfortable if you were scum so that you couldn't play an easy game of it, I wanted you to be paranoid.

- I asked Sash about Garmr partially to try to make Garmr feel like he was on the outside of a discussion about his play, i.e. making him paranoid if he was scum, and to be honest in hindsight it looked like it worked. His reaction in real time did give me a town lean on him, because I didn't expect a scum to defend himself with such an obvious display of scum paranoia. So either he faked it to throw me off, which worked, or it was real and I just thought it was so over the top that I misread it as town paranoia.

That being said, because I wanted Garmr to be scum so bad because of our previous game together, I genuinely was very self-doubting of my evaluations of him.

In all cases I didn't have a clearly defined game plan; I was to a large degree just throwing stuff at the wall to see what stuck.

[bji]

VOTE: Irrelephant

That's hammer, right?

If you're town Irrelephant, then genuinely sorry. But on re-read of your ISO with Garmr's, there are just way too many associations:

- You talk to each other quite a bit, in a very kid-gloves way. Like no apparent suspicion directed between you two. It's almost too obvious, which starts my self-doubt; but then, Garmr was clearly playing a very risk-taking scum style, after all he fake claimed a target without even reading carefully about his target to see that the claim would obviously out him. So I could see a brazen "let's just talk to each other and agree with each other all the time, totally buddy it up" strategy fitting with that.

- I felt on numerous occasions that you too quickly backed down from your suspicion of me. I won't quote them all, but there were several times you said essentially "yeah bji is reading more towny now" (I'm paraphrasing) and in real time I was thinking, "huh, I wonder how he drew that conclusion". It became a pattern. I can cite post 642 as an example, where I totally made up my evidence for my town read on Sash just in response to your pressing me to give them. In fact at that time the only reason I was town reading Sash was because I thought we were secretly communicating about the cop thing; and the reasons I gave were made up and weak. And you acted like they were great reads. There are other examples of that, I can look them up if you want ...

- Garmr picked you for his fake target, and the whole reason was to justify his town read on you. That's just too suspicious.

- Persivul thinks you're scum. I won't lie -- there is some sheeping here. I trust Persivul completely and believe his reads are very likely better than mine.

[bji]

If you are town then points to Garmr because he really buddied you up nicely.

I hammered because you were my top scum read because of the reasons I gave, and having you keep asking other players leading questions just didn't seem like a good strategy. I gave myself one more opportunitey to re-read your and Garmr's ISOs together and it didn't change my mind.

[bji]

Also I hammered because I do believe that town will make the right call in LYLO, and any further discussion is only going to reduce the likelihood of that. So from my perspective it didn't matter if you or me got hammered because the scum is in { Clem, Sash } and will lose in LYLO.

[bji]

Good luck lynching scum, occan’s razor should have told y’all my interactions with Garmr made me obvtown who got pocketed so I’m annoyed

Don't be annoyed. Just blame WIFOM. There is no such thing as "obvtown" and you know it. If your interactions really could have been expected to make you "obvtown" then scum could have employed them for exactly that purpose.

[bji]

Also if it was supposed to be so obvious to us, why wasn't it obvious to you? Why didn't you call Garmr out at any point before he was lynched for trying to pocket you?

[bji]

Obvious in retrospect
Like what is that question? “Why didn’t you call out Garmr for successfully pocketing you”

The question is, how can you write this:

"Good luck lynching scum, occan’s razor should have told y’all my interactions with Garmr made me obvtown who got pocketed so I’m annoyed"

If it was obvious, you should have noticed that he was trying to pocket you earlier, even before he outed himself, you should have been suspicious if someone was so obviously trying to pocket you. But you never said anything. And after he flipped scum, you never mentioned it either.

Why didn't you point it out so that any town who didn't see the obvious pocketing could at least have been alerted to it and thus possibly avoided your mislynch?

[bji]

I get the frustration Irrelephant. I am not trying to pin the blame of your mislynch on you. Just trying not to get blamed myself for not seeing "obvtown".

[bji]

Persivul, why don't you care for Irrelephant? I like him so far. I liked you so far too but ... I don't like how you're treating him now ...

[bji]

Who’s scum? @bji

I'm not answering this. I'll answer if Persivul asks, but only if Persivul asks.

[bji]

Who’s scum? @bji

I'm not answering this. I'll answer if Persivul asks, but only if Persivul asks.

OK. Who's scum?

It's Clem. I am not interested in reading anything else or discussing anything about it. It's Clem and that's who I am voting tomorrow. Full stop.

[bji]

I already said who I was going to vote. So Clem -- defend yourself. Are you going to vote for me or vote for Sash?

[bji]

By the way Clem, you get exactly one post and them I am voting you. So make it count.

[bji]

Clem is my choice too. I can't imagine scum!bji now even though you were my first read.

OK well here are my reasons for voting Clem:

- Only ever really got excited/involved when I pushed on him Day 1
- Made lots of noise about being pissed that he wasn't going to get to
play because he was sure he was going to be tunnelled to death, but
then once the tunnel was done he didn't actually play. Conclusion:
emotion was faked
- Garmr seemed to purposefully trying hard *not* to read Clem as scum;
waffling with post 98
- Garmr post 101 gives an oblique reason why Clem's play would be town.
- Garmr post 118 says Clemency is they type of player that will drag you
into the spotlight. No justification for that before or since.
- I had attacked Clem and voted Raya, Garmr had to consider a bji vs. Clem
fight and a bji vs. Raya fight, he stayed out of the bji vs. Clem fight
and chose to vote me early and vote Raya late. Seemed to be avoiding
conflict with Clem.
- Post 349 says he wants Reaper to talk more but never again seems to care
about reaper talking. This is right after putting reaper at L-2, believing
it was L-1 and quickly unvoting. In context this seems like trying to
come up for a reason for the unvote, and a hastily made up one that
according to further evidence in the game was not true.
- Post 446 Garmr is asked who is never scum, he says Clemency but gives
weak wishy washy reasons (same for Sash though).
- Post 549 "inb4 buddying" he is worried about how he looks buddying
- Post 573 Garmr doesn't like Clem's reason for voting Creature but still
never questions Clem. Garmr is resisting changing his "slight town"
lead on Clem.
- Post 600 Clem answer's my question to Sash to let us know that he's
acting like his last game (where he was town). Seems interested in
ensuring that he is not perceived as scum.
- Post 1173, apparently noticed the mod vote error but never pointed it
out?
- Post 819 Garmr says scum is bji, Sash, irrelephant, then later after his
scumslip in post 870 he changes it to bji, Sash, Clem. Why add Clem
and not just drop irrelephant? Looking for some post-scumslip distancing
maybe?
- Both Persivul and I ended Day 2 saying that we wanted to lynch Sash.
Yet Sash didn't kill Persivul or me. Persivul would have been an easy
kill to try to deflate the wagon on Sash - not even suspicious, as the
overriding reason to kill Persivul would be becuse he is cop. So Sash
could kill him, and take pressure away, without any chance of being
suspected. Instead the scum killed Reaper and roleblocked Persivul.
So Sash would have killed Persivul, not Reaper. And Clem might have
thought that keeping Persivul alive would get a mislynch of Sash.
- End of Day 3 both Persivul and I were angling towards Clem (me hard,
Persivul soft). Clem's best play is to kill Persivul. Sash's best
play cannot be known and is WIFOM.
- The only big thing against scum!Clem is that both Skitter and Creature
scum read Sash and town read Clem. However ... Persivul and irrelephant
scum read Clem in the end so ...


Do you disagree with any of those?

[bji]

I have a list for reasons to lynch you too Sash but it is like 1/10 as long ... do you want to see them?

[bji]

Points against Sash:

- Garmr post 787 where he says he's not opposed to a Sash lynch even though
he has never said anything about Sash before. Feels like distancing.
- Garmr post 825 has a weird typo -- indicates that Garmr deleted and
rewrote that. Scum is in there. So what was he trying to trick us
with here? I think it might have been something like:
"bji, sash. Sash, clem if bji flips town" -- but then he realized
that he had recently said sash so he had to say sash again and
double down on his distancing
- Garmr and Sash literally *never* interact. That is weird. But Sash did
not interact with most players, but then, many of them weren't very
interactive themselves. Garmr had significant interaction with many
players, and some interaction with Clem, but none with Sash
- Discussion about mylo/lylo confusion and opinion about the possibility of
a modkill do not seem genuine to me. Sash has 1 fewer game than I do and
should know these things by now. I have definitely used the 'act like
you don't quite know the rules' approach as scum before, and it often works.
- Garmr around post 419 might be distancing by saying he wouldn't mind
voting Sash at a time when Sash didn't look likely to be lynched; in fact
Sash has never really looked likely to be lynched except at the end of
Day 2.
- Says repeatedly early that he needs flips and info to make reads and I was
expecting him to become more active as a result but he never did ... that's
not consistent.

[bji]

In essence, Sash has played a pretty clean game. There is not alot to go on in terms of scum associations with Garmr or even posting patterns that give any clear scum lean for me. Just about everything I didn't like about Sash's play could be explained by play style and time committment.

As fr Clem, the long list of reasons I gave a few posts ago are I think enough to call him the remaining scum. Some are a bit reachy/wifom-y, but taken as a whole I think the evidence is just too strong.

I'm going to give Clem until tomorrow some time to post, just in case he has some fantastic explanation that requires consideration. But barring that, that's where I will be voting tomorrow.

Sash -- if you do get the urge to vote me, please at least give me some time to respond before you hammer. If Clem votes you, I promise that I will give you time to defend yourself.

[bji]

No, I'm not a lawyer. I'm a computer programmer. I argue with computers all day.

[bji]

Wow what an interesting situation. I have never made it to LYLO as town before. Every other time I've been to LYLO I've been scum trying to play dumb and get town to vote each other.

Here i have two players who won't even defend themselves to choose between. Feels like a coin flip to be honest. Yes the preponderance of evidence belongs to the scum!Clem case but I can't shake the feeling that the player most likely to be acting here is Sash.

I guess I will do yet one more read through ... the hammer will drop within the hour boys.

[bji]

I re-read the ISO (again). I won't claim that I can make any clear decision, neither player really scumhunted this game. Also he relaxed in a very odd way today when I pointed the finger so hard at Clem.

So, Clem's play seemed real and Sash's seemed like acting.

VOTE: Sashaddin

See Clem, I told you we'd be besties by the end.

[bji]

"Also he relaxed in a very odd way" I meant to say "Also Sash relaxed in a very odd way".

Sorry if I fucked up the choice everyone. It was a hard choice.

[bji]

hey nice we won
unless you're scum
but you wouldn't have any need to act this out if you were so
hey nice we won

Please don't troll me if you're really scum!

[bji]

Hey Creature, your opinion really did weigh on my decision so ... I hope we won it together for town. It's a team game you know!

[bji]

I kinda suck as town. My scum game is much better I think. But the sample size is small (8 games now) so maybe I just suck in general and am regressing to the mean ...

[bji]

Clemency, were you scum or town? I need to know!

[bji]

Also Clem what was post 904? I almost lynched you for that. Read like a scum slip, meant to be posted in the scum daytalk thread but accidentally posted in the game thread. But I decided to ignore it.

[bji]

Also why the fuck did Clem and Sash complain all game about not having time to play or energy to play and then go off and join another game two weeks ago?

[bji]

Here I am imagining that you guys were waiting with baited breath for my vote and then it turns out you didn't even give a shit ... explains a lot!

[bji]

@Mod

Can you *please* be sure to open up and post all other threads related to this game? Like Scum thread, dead thread, etc?

You don't need to ask people for permission, they implicitly agree by playing the game.

I find reading these threads very important for my full enjoyment of the game. Thank you!