Mini Normal 2044: Game over!

[Persivul]

Hello. Thanksgiving, so will look at it tomorrow.

[Persivul]

Caught up through page 11. Two people that I don't care for at this point are on my slot's wagon. Go figure.

[Persivul]

Wow, I'm really freaking curious to see how Tex, who has one post consisting of 12 words, has generated so many votes. Looking forward to my next read...

[Persivul]

VOTE: tex
why not

Because voting an inactive slot does nothing to advance the game.

You can't possibly have a scum read on Tex. So, by voting him, you're saying you don't have any scum reads at all. Otherwise you'd be, you know, voting one of them. Scum have difficulty developing scum reads because they don't really have any in a normal. But, they know they're expected to place votes...

[Persivul]

the poor soul that has to play the tex slot

Why do you say that?

[Persivul]

I think reaper has been active lurking

Did you check his activity in other threads?

[Persivul]

Because voting an inactive slot does nothing to advance the game.

You can't possibly have a scum read on Tex. So, by voting him, you're saying you don't have any scum reads at all. Otherwise you'd be, you know, voting one of them. Scum have difficulty developing scum reads because they don't really have any in a normal. But, they know they're expected to place votes...

I just called you scum. No reaction?

because tex was a replacement himself for another inactive player

Yet you do respond to this one...

[Persivul]

I've read the full thread, but haven't done ISOs yet except for clem. At this point:

{garmr, irrelephant (neat name BTW)}
{bji, skitter, sashadin}
{reaper}
{clemency, creature*}

* - I'm biased against creature from past experience and I hate his playstyle, so take that FWIW.

VOTE: Clemency

Read his ISO. He has the highest post count in the game, but practically no original thought. Frequently when a person gets heat on them early in D1 and gets out of it, people have a difficult time getting back to examining that person. Seems to be the case here. Yes, his frustration felt genuine, but both town and scum can get frustrated in that situation, so that's NAI.

[Persivul]

well the first one seems like you're quite sure of your point even though it's fairly reachy, and the people in this game should know how i feel about reaches

First, as has been noted multiple times, cases on D1 are necessarily reachy. So, you're technically responding, while actually saying nothing.

Second...what SPECIFICALLY is bad about it? Here it is again:

Because voting an inactive slot does nothing to advance the game.

Do you dispute this?

You can't possibly have a scum read on Tex. So, by voting him, you're saying you don't have any scum reads at all. Otherwise you'd be, you know, voting one of them. Scum have difficulty developing scum reads because they don't really have any in a normal. But, they know they're expected to place votes...

Examine it piece by piece and explain what's wrong with it.

[Persivul]

i'm very open about the fact that i'm way too spammy and produce no real content, while it's not intentional i try to be transparent about it

Being transparent about it doesn't change the fact that it's an anti-town playstyle. Absent EXTENSIVE (I mean years) playstyle meta, we can't sort people if they don't produce real content.

i'm open to any pushes towards me though, i'd love to hear out your points and refute them as i see fit
i'm ready to actually play now thanks

I thought you'd be ready to actually play around post 300, but better late than never I suppose...

[Persivul]

or, in other words - i don't particularly have a problem with the one post he did make so much as i find *the absence* of other posts scummy after he indicated he was eager to play this game

what do you think of my voting your slot?
(ie why are you pushing clemency in 510 and not, say, me?

I think your vote is lazy af. Flubber's been arounf the block, so his replace out is NAI. This guy didn't even know how to get in a game. When he came in he was overwhlemed and flaked. Again, NAI. But, I have you as a town lean on your overall activity.

[Persivul]

sometimes the answer really is as simple as: it's just the lurkers

Sure - but that's what cops, vigs etc. are for.

i don't think flubber's rep-out was particularly ai, but i do think that tex was scummy for having indicated he wanted to play (posting on page 1; i'm pretty sure the mod didn't post a replacement request in the replacement thread after flubber repped out, which indicates he indicated to her he was interested in repping in) but disappearing after he got his role pm

like he indicated he wanted to play; i'm not sure why he didn't actually play when he got the oppurtunity to do so and i feel flaking in that circumstance is scum-indicative

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that everyone who posts /in has indicated they wanted to play. Yet, a lot of them replace out, and a lot of those are town.

talk to me more about why you don't like creature?

Because he spams games with a ton of fluff in a thousand one-line posts. You do NOT want to be in lylo with him.

[Persivul]

i mean my point is that he indicated more than the usual amount of interest denoted by typing /in by asking to replace in imo

My point is that I disagree that that's a significant didstinction at all, and comes across as an excuse to scum read someone who's not around to defend anyway.

and i meant why is creature at the bottom of your readslist in this game, not why you don't like him in general

What has he done to advance the game? Nothing that I can see.

[Persivul]

Interesting. Why don't we just let the cops, vigs, etc, find all the scum for us then?

Easy - because we can theoretically find the scum ourselves when those scum are providing content. That's the whole point of playing the game. Power roles are best used to sort the people who aren't providing content.

I agree with Skitter30, there is a good argument against the Tex slot based on the replace outs from that slot. Every bit of in-game evidence is just speculation because the scum are lying through their teeth all the time here, and spotting that is hard. But you can't lie about a replace out. It happens and is factual evidence. I wouldn't mind basing my Day 1 vote on such factual evidence when the alternative is all WIFOM.

Yes, a replace out is an objective fact. No, it's not factual evidence of scum, as townies replace out all the time.

Yes, spotting scum who are lying through their teeth is hard, but again, that's the whole point of playing the game.

And the fact that you replaced into that slot and immediately went after Clemency, doesn't really clean the slot in my opinion.

I agree. I never said it should. No slot is clean at this point.

I think it's obvious to anybody why Clem would write that. He obviously thinks that the slot is highly suspected because it's been twice replaced out on Day 1 and will have a hard time redeeming itself. Also given Clem's play style it's an expected thing for him to say -- he doesn't really make cases, just fluffy observations.

It looks like you're trying to pick an argument with Clemency; there is no good reason for starting a back-and-forth with him on his throwaway comment otherwise.

Er, yes, that's exactly what I was doing. I can get information that way. You're pointing out that I'm actually playing the game instead of voting lurkers, but saying it in a disparaging way. I don't get that - unless you're doing the same with me now in order to get info from my response.

I would venture a guess that from your position, Clemency is possibly the easiest person to a) get to move off of your wagon with some pressure given that he's capitulated to just about every counterpoint in this game thus far,

Wrong. I'm not concerned about my wagon.

b) get some momentum towards as a mislynch vote given that he hasn't shown the ability or interest in defending himself. Under pressure he's acted like he's defeated before the argument even starts and is expecting to be lynched (from my first exchange with him). That would probably be a good player to try to turn the attention to, especially if you think that you're likely to be able to make him look bad in every exchange, which it appears you try to do (post 513, post 514).

Seriously, as scum you would try to mislynch this person today?

Scum!persivul would want to take this person to end game.

So when Clemency votes your slot for its replace-outs, he's scummy? But when Skitter does it, it's just because she's lazy?

I voted Clemency for having no original thought, not for voting my slot.

[Persivul]

So I got Three things I want to ask to help sort you.

-what do you think of creatures predecessor?

Scummy. That's mainly where the read comes from. Creature is too fluffy to really analyze. Some people might be able to read him based on meta. I can't. For me, VCA/NKA would be the only way to get a scum read on Creature.

-what made you push clemency over creature?

See above.

-You said you should let power roles sort out low content players but your reads list has all of them on the bottom to lynch straight away. Is that intentional or coincidence?

They have plenty of content. I believe they're the top two posters. What I don't see is any scum hunting in that content.

[Persivul]

@persivul post 555

Why didn't you bring up the scum read of raya earlier if you thought creature play so far was null when given reasons to scum read the slot?

Because I don't have time to write every thought that goes through my head, particularly when I'm replacing in and catching up.

Tbh it looks kinda bad in retrospect.

So want to explain the case or is more or less the same points as irrelephant and I made.

Declaring another interaction as TvT is super easy scum play. Worse, when pressured, her story changed.

And no, I don't do preflip associatives, so don't ask.

[Persivul]

I do agree with alot of what you say but this doesn't quite ring true to me. First, my personal experience is that scum replaces more frequently. It is a sucky part of the game because it reduces the fidelity of the game that there can be this objective fact that takes non-gameplay information and affects the game, but it is true in my experience. Second, it makes more sense that Tex would replace out because he didn't want to play scum than anything else. He did express interest in joining, and he did pretty much noped out as soon as he saw his role PM and then saw how the game was going. This all seems so much more likely to come from scum than town.

That's interesting, what are the numbers? How many town and scum replace outs have you seen? That's something I've thought about doing myself but never got around to.

[Persivul]

@persivul post 555

Why didn't you bring up the scum read of raya earlier if you thought creature play so far was null when given reasons to scum read the slot?

Because I don't have time to write every thought that goes through my head, particularly when I'm replacing in and catching up.

Tbh it looks kinda bad in retrospect.

So want to explain the case or is more or less the same points as irrelephant and I made.

Declaring another interaction as TvT is super easy scum play. Worse, when pressured, her story changed.

And no, I don't do preflip associative, so don't ask.

1.It helps me understand through, because if I didn't ask I would of thought you were calling creature scummy because of a null playstyle alone.

2.I meant mine or irrelphants points on raya not our vs. Like did you have a different opinion to why raya/creature may be scum or sheeping?

I don't recall what your or irrelephant's points were.

[Persivul]

I checked my 7 previous games, just going by slots there were 8/18 scum replaces and 21/60 town replaces. I didn't count multiple replaces to a slot, that was just too much work to count, but I don't recall seeing any particular disparity there between scum and town for that metric.

That's 44.4% scum slot replaces and 35.0% town slot replaces. So in my games, scum slots have replaced about 25% more often than town slots.

To be honest I expected an even larger difference before I did the math, but that's probably because I have replaced into three games and twice it was into a scum slot

, so I think that fact made me feel like scum slot replaces were even more likely than they are.

Exactly. People tend to make sweeping statements on such items as if they're fact, when really it's mostly confirmation bias from their own very limited experience.

[Persivul]

I already did: "Declaring another interaction as TvT is super easy scum play. Worse, when pressured, her story changed."

[Persivul]

79 - "I think this is a TvT interaction." Easy for scum to say as they know alignments.

130 - "To explain this a little more clearly I found the interaction to be likely TvT overall as an initial and not thought. It was nothing I felt confident about. It's too early to look at an interaction and settle on the players' alignments. The player I would find more likely to be scum in this interaction is clemency if I'm wrong about it being TvT." Oh fuck, I was way too confident earlier and we need mislynches, better dial back that read.

[Persivul]

Oh ok so if I try to step in your shoes, I can assume from this post you think it's unlikely that clemency and Creature/raya slot are a scum team together despite individual reads. So from your perspective who if one flips scum who do you think the partners of each one could be?

And no, I don't do preflip associatives, so don't ask.

[Persivul]

Preflip associatives are a waste of time. There are other ways to get into someone's head.

BTW do you know why you're focusing on me rn?

[Persivul]

3.I agree and disagree with you on certain things but your reasoning seems to be a bit guarded, I wanted to pry open your shell a bit.

My reasoning isn't guarded. Rather, it's in its infancy. I haven't analyzed the game nearly as much as you seem to have.

[Persivul]

wrt to the first - i think it's a significant distinction, and i voted him *because* he wasn't around

And that's lazy at best.

wrt to the second - i mean, i can you say that about your slot till you repped in, clem for the most part, reaper for the most part too, even sash a little bit? like what's special about creature here for you?

I'm not sure why I'm having trouble getting this point through. There's a big difference between someone who just isn't posting, and someone who's posting a lot without really saying anything.

what did you think of raya?

I addressed this already.

[Persivul]

Hi Garmr and Persivul, join me on my Creature wagon. Then we can get a claim and see who is willing to hammer.

Yuck.

Wagons are good for town for several reasons, but forcing claims isn't one of them. That's a scum mindset.

[Persivul]

Sorry, I haven't played in quite some time, I thought it was the expected outcome of an L-1 position.

I thought everyone was so hot for "information". Why doesn't a claim qualify?

The main info town is looking for is the person's reaction, who gets on the wagon, and whether a counter wagon forms.

Scum like to find roles.

[Persivul]

Thanks! I like my name too
Not sure how to came to townread me so strongly, though. Could you go into that?

First, you don't know how strong that read is. Those are relative brackets - note no labels.

Second - no, I don't do PBPA on town reads unless they're being wagoned.

[Persivul]

Are we all just voting PoE?

Seems like no matter who's voted, people come in to say why they're townie, but then don't make serious pushes themselves.

Are you still scum reading bji? As no one buys Clem, I could go to bji since my two towniest reads are on him. We need some wagons or VCA later won't be worth much.

[Persivul]

I didn't ask for PBPA, I just asked for *any* explanation for your read on me
It could be one word long tbh

Uh...you're scum hunting.

Also the fact that I'm above all other players but Garmr means it's "relatively" pretty strong, even if you don't feel it that strongly
How strong is your read on me, though? I'll let you put words in your own mouth, if you object to mine

Lean town is the strongest I'll put anyone rn.

Garmr yeah readslist and maybe a new vote coming in a minute or two

Damn, just as I'm coming around on bji.

[Persivul]

The main info town is looking for is the person's reaction, who gets on the wagon, and whether a counter wagon forms.

Scum like to find roles.

So you actually believe the claim will be factual just because the person is at L-1?

If Raya/Creature is scum (which I think is more likely true than anything else I've seen this game) then the claim doesn't matter as it's a lie anyway - and if it's a lie that gets the slot off the hook today, it will almost certainly bury it later on.

If Creature is town, then I'm assuming that he will be smart enough to make the claim that is best for town.

It's all information, man! And in my experience (which is limited and sparse, I admit), its real value can only be known as we approach the final days of the game and we can look back and see which players did things that were subtly contradictory in a way that would have scum motivation -- that's the only way that I haver personally ever actually identified scum beyond lucky guesswork.[/quote]

Suppose he's cop. What's the claim that's best for town?

[Persivul]

EBWOP for quote tags

So you actually believe the claim will be factual just because the person is at L-1?

If Raya/Creature is scum (which I think is more likely true than anything else I've seen this game) then the claim doesn't matter as it's a lie anyway - and if it's a lie that gets the slot off the hook today, it will almost certainly bury it later on.

If Creature is town, then I'm assuming that he will be smart enough to make the claim that is best for town.

It's all information, man! And in my experience (which is limited and sparse, I admit), its real value can only be known as we approach the final days of the game and we can look back and see which players did things that were subtly contradictory in a way that would have scum motivation -- that's the only way that I haver personally ever actually identified scum beyond lucky guesswork.

Suppose he's cop. What's the claim that's best for town?

[Persivul]

As for Sashaddin, it's scummy because it only "looks so town" on first pass. It isn't content made to scumhunt; it's content made to avoid attention while seeming active.

Fair point. But, I'd say the same about clem and creature, and you have them in your first and second tiers.

[Persivul]

If there's another consensus scumread besides me, it's obviously not getting pushed at all.

I'd vote you too based on your slot's activity, but unfortunately, your wagon is two-thirds crap.

[Persivul]

Clemency, similarly, is using his vote to grow wagons and increase pressure on slots when others provide strong scumcases.

"Why not?" isn't a reaction to a strong scum case.

Clem's voting strikes me as someone who was told in a newbie that it's scummy to not move your vote around D1.

That said, Sash's ISO

is

devoid of content, and 291 is horrible.

[Persivul]

I'd vote you too based on your slot's activity

Because I posted too much?

I'll make you a deal. Do a PBPA on raya and convince me she was town. Do that and I'll move you to my top tier.

[Persivul]

I don't do PbPA

Do it for town.

[Persivul]

I don't do PbPA

Why not?

It's 24 posts. It won't take long.

[Persivul]

I guess you could, but that wasn't a strong scum case anyway.

[Persivul]

Post by post analysis

[Persivul]

Yep. Creature gives thoughts, but the way he does it is really easy for scum to fake, and easy to reverse later.

[Persivul]

UNVOTE:

I checked prior games of Clem, 2 town and 1 scum. Scum game he posted very infrequently and then replaced out. Town games read much like this one, including one very specific item.

[Persivul]

So you think he's incapable of changing his style? Or of faking his style to fool the other player(s) who have played with him previously (Sash is the only one I know of).

Yes, I do. If he were capable, he would have done so in that scum game. Playing scum correctly takes practice.

Your reasons for joining the Clem wagon were bad and your reasons for getting off of it are even worse ...

Not AI btw, just an observation.

Are you against meta in general, or just this particular case?

[Persivul]

hey best buddy could you specify what that item is so i can absorb it into my gameplay

LMAO. Uh, no, I'll keep that to myself.

[Persivul]

Faking a long PbPA post isn't also easy to do?

No, it isn't easy to fake real analysis. There's a set of objective facts. Some conclusions are better supported by those facts than others. You can't just fake logical connections.

[Persivul]

I still feel the push on me is majorly scum-motivated

By whom?

[Persivul]

Yeah, except skitter has you as town now.

[Persivul]

And what don't you like about Garmr's L-1?

[Persivul]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi-RaaG-yx4

VOTE: Creature

[Persivul]

OK so you can just call me Creature's Conscience today.

VOTE: ReaperOfSouls

Skitter did not target me.

Nah, there are better targets than Reaper.

VOTE: Sashaddin

[Persivul]

I'm calling it Garmr/Reaper with a smaller chance of Sash being scum

Like you said about Creature. I'm pretty sure it's not Reaper, so could go with Garmr or Sash. Since a push on Sash was beginning at end of day, she's a better candidate.

[Persivul]

I read skitter's ISO. I don't see softing, so probably not killed due to the role. She had me, reaper, and sash as scummy, but wasn't strong about any of her reads. That's another point against sash.

She was probably killed just because she wouldn't be an easy mislynch, but wasn't so towny as to be protected.

[Persivul]

I was hoping for some more activity and a chance to town it up and avoid this, but after my unannounced hammer on Creature, and with just 4 needed to lynch and 1 vote on me already, I think it's best that I claim. Plus, with the modifier, it was likely to come out anyway.

I'm

Town Loud Cop

. I have an innocent on Reaper.

[Persivul]

@ Persivul:
I was puzzled by the hammer, I

usually

see someone announcing "intent" before doing it. Was there a reason for doing it right away?

**I'm a He, please

I was satisfied he wasn't a town PR. So, either he was scum, or he was lynchbait (as evidenced by the L-1) and needed to go anyway. I was also (necessarily) lynchbait but will likely need to be killed tonight (unless there's a RB), and my flip will conftown Reaper, the other lynchbait. That should make the game solvable.

[Persivul]

Oh good that will help my vote analysis if reaper confirms. You should of just crumbed at the start of day 2

I did.

then see who would voted you through then announced it.

Would have loved to, but I have to go. I think bji's town and he has a vote on me. With two scum and 4 to lynch, it was too dangerous to leave it like that. On this site, a quickhammer justifies a quicklynch. You were setting up a vote on me, and sash appeared. You two are my scum team, so that seemed like more than coincidence. If I were scum, I would have planned to show up early and try to quicklynch me.

Anyway, good night!

[Persivul]

@persivual
Also that's bullshit reasoning the person who posted after you must be your scum partner wtf is that shit.

First, you're paraphrasing to cast shade.

Second - you don't discuss potential mislynch strategy for the next day when you're scum?

@Bji
I trust my own reads over someone else's I have also seen that mentality sheeping others lead to mislynches.

Maybe if you had sheeped elephant or someone else instead of trusting your own reads, Creature would be alive and scum would be dead.

Personally, I know I'm not particularly good at catching scum until D3 when there's more hard facts to work with. So, sheeping town reads (or actual flipped town) until then is logical to an extent.

[Persivul]

Town loud cop seems like it would be fun to play. Why would two players replace out of it?

Because life. Kept telling you that replacing out isn't significantly alignment indicative. I've site flaked twice in my time here, neither was because of scum draws.

[Persivul]

I'll just sheep then lynch me tomorrow I can't be bothered finding scum if I'm going to be mislynched because of creatures shitty read on me.

AtE

[Persivul]

768 and 770? I'm just reading you saying "Not Reaper". Was that it?

Yes. When someone flips cop, it's customary to go back to their first few posts of each new day and look for things like that.

[Persivul]

As this is my first game other than a newbie one. Rule set? Where can I find it?

Sitewide rules:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6470
This game's rules:
0

[Persivul]

My vote wasn't going to stand, I was just reaction testing you and others. As you saw just a few posts before I said I was willing to call you town lacking further evidence. Just about any explanation for why you picked Sash after quickhammer would have probably satisfied me.

Yeah, I figured as much, but I couldn't risk going to bed with a likely town vote on me already and my top scum team active. I've seen people quicklynched before for doing a quickhammer the previous day. That's acceptable in site meta. If I were scum, I would have wanted to try it - easy lynch and deprive town of a day of talk.

If you really are cop then thanks for what you've done, but I think it's not super cool to think you finished your job and just claim and leave. You should work harder with the power given to you.

I just meant leave unclaimed for the night.

[Persivul]

I'll just sheep then lynch me tomorrow I can't be bothered finding scum if I'm going to be mislynched because of creatures shitty read on me.

If that's your attitude, why don't you want lynched today? Why do you want to hang around another day...and night?

VOTE: Garmr

[Persivul]

I didn't even know there were such things as Loud Cop and Loud Doctor. You kinda learn new stuff every time you play ...

Yeah, Loud is an interesting modifier. I had seen it before while designing games but didn't understand the use. Now I see the possibilities.

The proper play for someone who's told they were visited is to really examine the person who visited them and get a read. If the read is town, keep the info to yourself. If the read is scum, then raise the issue for discussion.

But, on this site, people have a hard time keeping a secret. I'd guess that 80% or more of people told they were visited are going to blurt it out at some point the next day. Then the cop has to decide whether to make a true claim or fake claim. Either way scum now know that the cop has a PR of some sort.

So, it's kind of like putting a 1X limit on the role, BUT if the cop and the targets play well, you can get more out of it.

Coming into this game I had an interesting dilemma. I came in at L-2. If I were forced to claim, scum kill or block me and I don't get a result. So, I had to town it up to take some heat off. OTOH, if I'm too towny, scum kill me, and we don't get a result. So, after towning it up to avoid an L-1, I had to scum it up a bit to avoid a NK.

And again, it goes to show you - don't read too much into replace outs. I think Tex told the truth - he wanted to play and have some fun, but when he came in he was immediately under pressure, and that's not fun for a newbie.

[Persivul]

Yeah, there's no way I believe that town!Garmr gets this salty

without even a single vote

on him. Sounds like scum trying to fake town frustration, but not doing it well.

[Persivul]

Yep.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Loud

For most roles and game setups, and a lot of terminology, just google "mafiascum ______" and if there's a wiki page on it you'll find it.

[Persivul]

Yeah, there's no way I believe that town!Garmr gets this salty

without even a single vote

on him. Sounds like scum trying to fake town frustration, but not doing it well.

You don't know town garmr then because it's part of my reputation.

I would think that repeatedly self-voting as town, i.e. playing against wincon, would get you banned.

[Persivul]

Just checked Mini 2027 and yeah, you self hammered as town. Problem now is that since you're aware of it and pointed out the meta yourself, it doesn't mean much.

Also, you're in absolutely no place to tell other people to learn how to play the game.

[Persivul]

Why don't you just quit acting like a 2-year-old and accept that townies getting scum read is part of the game?

[Persivul]

VOTE: Creature
l-1

I wanted to see how a couple of things resolved before I did this now they have.

What things resolved?

Why didn't you explain those things at the time?

[Persivul]

But i'm not getting scum read for a proper reason. I'm getting scum read because people are following a content less player who has got me wrong in the past who can't even read me correctly who never provided a real reason and I'm going to get mislynched because of it.

Is PoE a proper reason?

Living players:
1. Clemency
3. ReaperOfSouls
4. Sashaddin
5. Irrelephant11
6. Garmr
7. Flubbernugget TexdoesHalo Persivul
8. bji

From my claim and result:
1. Clemency
4. Sashaddin
5. Irrelephant11
6. Garmr
8. bji

2 out of 5 are scum. If you're not one, who is?

[Persivul]

But i'm not getting scum read for a proper reason. I'm getting scum read because people are following a content less player

If he's contentless, how did you scum read him?

[Persivul]

{Garmr, skitter, clemency}
{bji, creature}
{reaper, persivul}
{sashaddin}

VOTE: sashaddin
Seems very *I'm here and talking, which is towny, right?* and based on others' "hmm probably town but the read doesn't hold if I really think about it" I'd put my money on this slot being scum over the two lurker-y slots (which is not to say I townread either of those slots)
Reaper can still be busy-IRL scum
Persivul can still be scum playing hard to avoid a wagon
If bji or creature are scum I doubt I'll catch them out this game day
Feel good with my top row, or at least, as good as I can given skitter and garmr both have strong scumgames iirc (definitely skitter, maybe I made that up about garmr? lol). Strength of the read? I would defend any of these three from a lynch, probably

There's the reads list. What did you conclude from it?

[Persivul]

The slot before him raya was scummy to me or aren't you able to read?

I'm well aware of it - said it myself. Just wanted to see what you would say.

[Persivul]

Yeah, if elephant is scum, from that reads list we'd expect partner to be in:
{bji, creature}
{reaper, persivul}

But the only one left there is bji.

So, scum looks like irrel/bji or garmr/sash.

Do you see any other possibilities?

[Persivul]

okay great you're townreading him

What do you mean by that?

[Persivul]

Yeah, if elephant is scum, from that reads list we'd expect partner to be in:
{bji, creature}
{reaper, persivul}

But the only one left there is bji.

So, scum looks like irrel/bji or garmr/sash.

Do you see any other possibilities?

Bji, sash. Sash,Clem if Is possible but highly unlikely, That's why don't mind lynching sash right now If i'm wrong I get to clear my name pretty much.

irrel/bji
garmr/sash
bji/sash
clem/sash

Forget about the aspect of clearing your own name. Can you rank these from most likely to least likely?

[Persivul]

persivul did you crumb

No. Crumbing roles is stupid. Scum can do it as easily as town.

[Persivul]

"quit acting like a 2-year-old and accept that townies getting scum read is part of the game" isn't something you say to a scumread

Did you consider that it could be a general comment, rather than specific to this game?

[Persivul]

lol sorry to upset you,

Casting shade.

[Persivul]

it would resolve some of my "his scum action is loud and he didn't decide what he'd claim until the night phase" paranoia

How about the fact that scum!pers wouldn't clear an easy potential mislynch like Reaper? That should resolve your paranoia. Surprised you didn't think of that yourself.

[Persivul]

I think you're angry

Why?

[Persivul]

TBF that's entering the territory of wifom.

TBF 3/4 of what we do here are in or border on the territory of wifom.

[Persivul]

Can you respond to 830?

[Persivul]

persivul did you crumb

No. Crumbing roles is stupid. Scum can do it as easily as town.

the tone of this felt angry

Why? Because I said "stupid" instead of "counterproductive" or something?

Like I said, casting shade.

[Persivul]

Btw Just going to claim I'm a motion detector I motion detected Ele there was no movement which is why ele is low on my list to lynch.

oh good this is a fake claim

A Motion Detector is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. A Motion Detector should receive the same result if they see an action being performed by their target as they would if they see an action being performed on their target (and the same if they see both).

LOL, I was waiting to see if you'd try to cover for his slip. Didn't know if you two were the team or you were just buddying him.

[Persivul]

okay two people gave me a slap on the hands i'm retracting my vote
UNVOTE:

It was a good vote. He slipped on his claim. Partner is probably irrelephant.

[Persivul]

I'm not scum if I claimed scum I would be banned and that would be silly but just lynch me anyway.

No, caught scum can self-vote in an attempt to shut down town discussion. There's no action taken on that.

[Persivul]

UNVOTE:

No rush.

[Persivul]

but I got skitter's protection?
I'm just gonna

@mod

about this situation just in case there was a mistake in night action resolving (if we don't hear anything I'll assume it's a no)

Town reaction is more likely

but I got skitter's protection, so you're scum.

[Persivul]

So does this still hold?

Now I'd say it's:

garmr/irrel
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
garmr/sash

[Persivul]

difference?*

I arrived where you're saying I should have arrived like two posts later. I don't see why it's unreasonable that my immediate reaction comes from town!me who townreads garmr strongly up to that point

IOW...you screwed up, then tried to salvage it.

Before he slipped you looked either like scum partners, or you were scum buddying up to town. As soon as he slipped I typed up a gotcha! post, but then scrapped it to see if you'd try to defend him.

[Persivul]

So, talking out the play out:

Game was highly likely 7:2 to start.

Day 2 starts 5:2.

Assuming garmr is scum, his lynch makes it 5:1.

Further assuming he really is a scum MD, the other scum is likely goon.

So, they need to lynch me tonight. Reaper is then 100% conftown.

Day 3 starts 4:1.

Lynch irrel. If he's scum, game over. If he's town, that makes it 3:1.

N3 they presumably kill Reaper since he's conftown.

D4 is lylo with clem, sash, and bji.

So, question is: which of {clem, sash, bji} is most likely scum with garmr?

[Persivul]

skitter protecting me is +town for me, too (she's played with me a number of times), but me saying this probably will make you feel like that's not true, esp. given a tunnel on me

Yeah, plus the fact that I was reading other games of yours earlier today, and in one you said that you tend to be town read whether you're town or scum.

[Persivul]

I don't think he'd forget skitter targeted me if that result was discussed in the scumchat

When did you get that info from mod?

[Persivul]

nm, scum have daytalk.

[Persivul]

I don't think he'd forget skitter targeted me if that result was discussed in the scumchat

Fair point.

[Persivul]

So, we need to eventually pick two out of {clem/sash/irrel/bji}.

[Persivul]

Tip for our newer players. You've probably learned how to hit the ISO button and see all of someone's posts. You can also go to the bottom of the screen, in drop-down by Display posts by user: select a player (e.g. garmr), then click the + beside that and select another player(s). Then you get a multi-player ISO.

[Persivul]

It's obviously a pretty good tool after a scum flip to find/rule out partners.

[Persivul]

I would like Sash and Bji to show up now and take it away

Yep. I really don't want to say much more until sash/bji/clem offer some analysis. Reaper would be nice too but since he's cleared not absolutely necessary.

[Persivul]

[Persivul]

Yeah just ignore garmr. Don't engage. It's all wifom. That's the downside of keeping phase open.

[Persivul]

It should resolve tomorrow. Unless scum have a RB, they have to kill me tonight. If garmr's a scum MD, it's doubtful they also have a RB.

[Persivul]

Could someone unvote? I'd like to look at this closer over the weekend.

In case a hammer happens: right now I'd say lynch sash tomorrow, if that doesn't end it lynch irrelephant the next day. But again there's still some things I'd like to look into.

[Persivul]

Can you talk more about why I should be lynched over Clemency in lylo?

Probably not today, but I'll get into it in more detail (or possibly change my mind) tomorrow or Sunday.

[Persivul]

I agree Sash is more likely scum than Clemency, but I obviously disagree that I'm more likely scum than Clemency

Does this mean you've pretty much ruled out bji?

[Persivul]

Just looked at Garmr/bji since I thought that would be easiest and I'm at work. If they're a team they deserve to win. Ruling out bji.

[Persivul]

I've read what I wanted and have no changes. IMO:

Lynch garmr today.

Lynch sash tomorrow. I'll be surprised if this doesn't end it. From a partners view, these two talked a little bit ABOUT each other, but they had almost no talk TO each other. From an individual view, I checked recent town games of sash. In those he's more active and makes cases. Here he's less active, did a lot of IIOA in the beginning/middle of D1, and only made some weak analysis toward the end of D1.

If that doesn't end it, lynch Irrelephant. On D1, both irrel and clem had natural interactions with garmr. On D2, clem's attitude toward garmr, his votes and unvotes, his excitement at seeing scum caught - that all looks natural and townie. OTOH, Irrel was way too defensive for garmr when I started pushing him; was casting shade toward me without directly challenging me; and had a horrible reaction to garm's slip (see 857 and following). I think it will turn out that it's sash and irrel was just really highly townreading garm, but between irrel and clem, clem's D2 play is much townier.

I'm ready to lynch if everyone else is.

[Persivul]

I will follow your game plan, with one minor exception: I prefer to lynch Clem over Irrelephant if Sash isn't scum. If you want to talk more about that we can before you lynch.

No, that's not a minor exception. Yes, I'd like to here details.

[Persivul]

*hear

[Persivul]

But my main point is: what did Clemency do better than I did?

Interacted naturally with Garmr.

[Persivul]

i have to admit i don't see why you're picking sash over me either

Why, what's the case against you?

[Persivul]

My position on clem is based partly on meta. In his last scum game, he made 7 posts, then dropped out. However, I've looked at all of his games now, and he does have an older scum game in which he sounds pretty much like he does here. Not that I'm saying he sounds scummy. He sounds like this in his town games, too. Unfortunately another player on site who's just conversational and so difficult to read.

Anyway, finding the older game puts clem pretty null for me.

[Persivul]

Btw Just going to claim I'm a motion detector I motion detected Ele there was no movement which is why ele is low on my list to lynch.

Garmr's feeling pressure. He fakes a detection on irrel. Assuming garmr's scum, why does he choose irrel?

[Persivul]

I'm feeling warmer and fuzzier regarding Irrel. When a scum buddy slips, the logical move isn't to defend, but rather to bus hard and fast.

[Persivul]

I meant faking the target. Assume that he actually is a MD.

[Persivul]

Lynch sash tomorrow. That should take care of things. Good luck!

VOTE: Garmr

[Persivul]

Sash is defending himself from what might happen on D3, instead of trying to lynch scum in the here and now.

[Persivul]

Plot twist: I was blocked last night.
VOTE: sash

[Persivul]

Who did you target?

That info isn't free.

Why is this a twist? What did you think would happen?

967

[Persivul]

That info isn't free.

What do you want, need... and from whom?

Claims, preferably in the order:

Sash
Irrel
Clem
bji

[Persivul]

It should resolve tomorrow. Unless scum have a RB, they have to kill me tonight. If garmr's a scum MD, it's doubtful they also have a RB.

It was doubtful to you, yet you predicted what happened. What is there to think about this?

No, the opposite of what I said happened. Hence, twist.

[Persivul]

@Irrel - trial balloons are scummy af.

[Persivul]

I don't know what that sentence means

It means that, instead of making a point with your first two posts today, you were purposely vague - floating a trial balloon to see if someone might guess at your point and take it up. If no one does, you just let it die.
UNVOTE:

[Persivul]

Persivul, why would Sash kill Reaper instead of you? Even if he were roleblocker, I think your level of play is higher than everyone else's here so I would expect Sash to want to get rid of you instead of a player (Reaper) who wasn't really contributing anything to town's chances of winning other than being a warm body.

Furthermore, you are I were both agreeing to vote Sash today. So Sash could predict that he would already have two firm votes today, and only needing one more to be lynched, it seems that his only hope would be to eliminate you and hope that two other town besides me wouldn't vote him.

Additionally, your elimination was expected and so wouldn't really give much info about who the scum was.

The question then becomes, is Sash really ballsy enough to count on the above conclusions and do the opposite to throw us off his track? No offense Sash, but I don't think so.

I largely agree with this. I didn't necessarily vote Sash because he's still my top scum read. But, two considerations:

- Garmr may have given NK instructions in scum chat. A point interestingly made by Irrel.
- A lot of scum are too fond of wifom in NK selection.

But yeah, I largely agree with you.

In my opinion scum is either Clem or Irrelephant.

I need to read more to see which player was more likely to kill Reaper than you. Again, busy with work, not sure when I will be able to do this, probably tonight.

I also need to do some re-reading and meta reading, but rn I'd say Irrel is more likely than Clem.

[Persivul]

Clem, your turn to claim.

[Persivul]

I guess I have to consider that Persivul's continual shade-throwing in my direction could potentially come from scum trying to save the easier mislynch for lylo

I'm not casting shade at you. I'm outright saying you're scummy. I said "scummy af" actually. You've been the one casting shade at me. You still are - "could potentially." You're testing the waters but not committing. If you want to push me, push me.

[Persivul]

bji, your turn.

[Persivul]

vt

Thanks.

Who's the last scum?

[Persivul]

dumb

dumb

What is?

Plot twist: I was blocked last night.
VOTE: sash

That entrance was as transparent as a brick wall.

[Persivul]

Who's scum?

[Persivul]

bji do you have a claim?

[Persivul]

Those are all great points.

I don't think persivul is scum, he is the last person I would like to lynch
That said, he is not 100% mechanically clear. "I was roleblocked" has been done by scum making a fakeclaim before.
I have lost mafia games by not considering that the person who I have most reason to townread *could* still be scum, and I am acknowledging that I have enough paranoia about the gamestate to consider it.

Obviously not 100% clear. Maybe 99?

Now that everyone has claimed VT, for me to be scum, the setup would be:

Town

Loud doctor

Scum

Loud _____ (Reaper confirmed my visit and flipped green)
Motion Detector

Which would be pretty damn unbalanced.

p-edit: you beat me to it.

[Persivul]

persivul, let me know if you want me to towncase myself/

No thanks.

who you want me to focus on sorting, etc.

Your biggest scum read.

It seems I am at the bottom of your PoE,

No, you're at the top of my scum list. Spin like this is part of the reason why.

[Persivul]

I'm sorry to report you're overtunneled.

I will sort after clemency posts thoughts (if you haven't caught on by now, they're my biggest scumread)

So make a case now. It's D3. He has 123 posts already. Saying you need him to post more is a copout.

[Persivul]

I targeted Irrel last night. I wanted the claims because there are some roles other than RB that would explain my lack of result.

[Persivul]

I targeted Irrel last night. I wanted the claims because there are some roles other than RB that would explain my lack of result.

I thought you thought cop roles were for sorting lurkers?

They are. I didn't expect to be here anyway so I went with my gut.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Irrelephant

I really want this.

[Persivul]

I really want this.

Because of his Day 3 so far, right?

And rereading D2.

[Persivul]

Do you think that Clemency has a weak town game?

This is my 7th game only, so take my word for it's worth. I don't see her play as weak, because those scums were really good in last game. In fact I've seen weak players and Clem is not one of them.

What game are you referencing?

[Persivul]

Persivul, why would Sash kill Reaper instead of you? Even if he were roleblocker, I think your level of play is higher than everyone else's here so I would expect Sash to want to get rid of you instead of a player (Reaper) who wasn't really contributing anything to town's chances of winning other than being a warm body.

Furthermore, you are I were both agreeing to vote Sash today. So Sash could predict that he would already have two firm votes today, and only needing one more to be lynched, it seems that his only hope would be to eliminate you and hope that two other town besides me wouldn't vote him.

Additionally, your elimination was expected and so wouldn't really give much info about who the scum was.

The question then becomes, is Sash really ballsy enough to count on the above conclusions and do the opposite to throw us off his track? No offense Sash, but I don't think so.

In my opinion scum is either Clem or Irrelephant.

I need to read more to see which player was more likely to kill Reaper than you. Again, busy with work, not sure when I will be able to do this, probably tonight.

I read sash's D1 ISO and it's pretty damn townie. He's no longer in my scum pool. I had him scummy due to Creature's read (which was right on Garmr) and Garmr's lack of interaction with him, but he looks good on his own.

Sash - what's your scum pool currently?

[Persivul]

i'm here
i'm queer
i'm ready to play
what do y'all need

Required - give reads and reasons for all players
Optional - vote Irrel

[Persivul]

I can find small breaks for posting today yay!

Scummy

Clemency
Irrelephant

bji
town

Perfect. You, me, and bji are in agreement. We lynch one of {Clem, Irrel} today. If that doesn't end it, whichever two of us are alive tomorrow lynch the other one. I strongly prefer Irrel today but if you guys both pledge to abide by this plan, and both want to lynch Clem today, I'll go along with it. Let me know if you agree.

bji, do you agree?

UNVOTE:

[Persivul]

that's not a very good idea brotherman

You agree on irrel.

Regarding sash, take a look at your ISO vs. his. Try to consider an objective townie reading both of those. If you're honest, you know Sash looks better.

You just like to fuck around and fluff post. That's your choice. I understand it, and bear you no ill will because of it. But don't complain when people can't town read you. That style is lynchbait. Look at Creature. He had a good read on Garmr, but he got lynched, because he posts the same as you.

[Persivul]

i play like this because i'm 10x worse at playing full serious

Maybe now, but it's like anything else - practice at it and you'll get better. Analyze failures. Ask for tips in post game. Hydra with someone you respect.

[Persivul]

i mean i'm just really wondering on why garmr would lie about his motion detect target when he actually was a scum motion detector
was that like a bus attempt or what

That does deserve some closer inspection. On first blush it just reads like a complete mistake by Garmr whose motivation was to give some actual reasoning for his read on Irrelephant -- motivation could be trying not to be too suspicious for town reading his partner:

Btw Just going to claim I'm a motion detector I motion detected Ele there was no movement

which is why ele is low on my list to lynch.

Yep.

I think the following needs some investigation too:

Tbh in the game state the way it is we won anyway so it doesn't really matter if I slipped to much.

Absolutely not. Don't go down the wifom path. It only leads to madness.

[Persivul]

Sorry guys I am suddenly the logjam here as I have been kinda busy IRL for the past few days. I still intend to do another ISO re-read before making any vote committment. If Clem is scum and he wins, then oh well. I hardly consider a loss against someone who doesn't really interact with the game much to be a loss. Before a re-read my gut feel is:

Scum

Irrelephant

Sash

Clem

Town

WTF, a day ago you said Irrel or clem. I reread and came to agree with that. Now you're saying sash before clem?

[Persivul]

Bji what made me your acummiest read this gameday?

This is part of why I scum read you.

[Persivul]

You keep asking for reasons that you're being scum read. You'd rather be defending than attacking.

[Persivul]

There is alot to reread but I did notice something very interesting:

Garmr and Irrelephant talk to each other *alot*.
Garmr and Clem talk to each other *some*.
Garmr and Sash talk to each other *never*.

Still reading ...

This is something I’ve noticed but switch my name with bji’s
Maybe it’s still just sash???
Paranoia is real

But I’m like extremely paranoid of scum!bji

More paranoia tell.

[Persivul]

persivul, let me know if you want me to towncase myself

/who you want me to focus on sorting, etc.
It seems I am at the bottom of your PoE, which I personally think I can fix, but I'll let you lead from here. I still think Clem should provide more in-depth thoughts before much else happens

Wasn't just to bji though.

[Persivul]

More paranoia tell.

Actually I'll retract this. You use the word a lot.

[Persivul]

I offered to help you not tunnel on me. Your answer showed that it would not help. I have not towncased myself since.

Now if you'd just pick someone to push...

[Persivul]

I’m literally townreading everyone alive, where have I gone wrong

You haven't. Everyone alive but you is town.

Irrel is using a pretty good tactic for caught scum. The nature of mafia is change over time. So, he's dragging the day out, without committing to anything himself, and just waiting for you guys to change.

@mod: I unvoted earlier - the VC's off.

VOTE: Irrelephant

I'm done until this is lynched.

[Persivul]

@mod - it appears to me that Clem has a vote on Irrel, putting him at L-1

I want the guy lynched, bot not on a mod error.

[Persivul]

Good luck lynching scum,

Thanks!

occan’s razor should have told y’all my interactions with Garmr made me obvtown who got pocketed

Maybe if you had made that case in detail you'd still be alive.

so I’m annoyed

I don't really care for you so I'm glad you're annoyed.

I don’t have time to reread more right now so hope y’all can puzzle this out

It's day 3, there's already 48 pages of material...and you had all town reads. WTF?

[Persivul]

Hey Persivul, remember when I said “let me know if you want me to towncase myself”?

When I'm town and need to defend myself...I defend myself. I don't ask for permission.

[Persivul]

Classy, kind, funny, and helpful!
Thanks for this comment!

Seriously, you come across as condescending to me, and I don't like it. Examples: telling me what I'm thinking subconsciously; telling me you're offering me an opportunity to get out of a tunnel. I try to separate that dislike from my reads, but I'm only human.

[Persivul]

persivul you more than anyone should be providing reads here

I already have. If I'm alive tomorrow, I'll reread and do my due diligence, and if warranted change my reads. But I

have

given them.

[Persivul]

Okay
You two made the wrong decision here (or one of you did it intentionally in which case get out of the thread you already mislynched me stop pissing me off), so rationalize it all you want

Relax. It's just a game.

[Persivul]

I am not trying to pin the blame of your mislynch on you.

I'll pin it on him. It's D3, near 50 pages of activity...and he can't give a single scum read? He's reading everyone as town? That's messed up.

[Persivul]

Persivul, why don't you care for Irrelephant?

See 1213 above.

I like him so far.

Good! Maybe I'll like him in the future. I don't hold grudges.

I liked you so far too but ... I don't like how you're treating him now ...

I don't play a game where you have to lie and stab people in the back in order to make friends...

[Persivul]

loud doctor
loud cop
5 vts w/ maybe a less impressive PR
mafia goon
mafia 1-shot roleblocker??

cop + doctor is uncommon, maybe the "loud" is the way of counteracting - bad aim and scum knows you're a PR? but it's a micro... I'm bad at setup spec, but still paranoid about the loud cop

pedit: I mean I've considered that you could be town who *wants* to scumread Garmr but at the very least

your subconscious acknowledges Garmr's anger is town-indicative

He could be performing in theory, yes, but in that case I don't think he will "quit acting like a 2-year-old" at your request anyway, so...
pedit2: no it's not? I'm in the middle of towncasing Garmr for anger, and now I think you're angry, why assume I'm calling you "angry scum"?

[Persivul]

Who’s scum? @bji

I'm not answering this. I'll answer if Persivul asks, but only if Persivul asks.

OK. Who's scum?

[Persivul]

Persivul if you’re confident everyone knows your reads, great. I don’t feel like I do, but I won’t be in lylo anyway, so *shrug*

I think this was pretty clear:

Perfect. You, me, and bji are in agreement. We lynch one of {Clem, Irrel} today. If that doesn't end it, whichever two of us are alive tomorrow lynch the other one.

Pedit: “messed up”? Lol. Every player other than me *has been towny*. That’s why you mislynched me, remember? So it’s not messed up, it’s where your head would be at if you were in my shoes

I managed to say you AND clem, so no, that's not accurate.

[Persivul]

Being paranoid in this situation is a major towntell for me, and could have been discovered by reading any game where I reached or nearly reached lylo.

Yes, I read a town game of yours and saw that you used the word a lot. That's why I retracted the charge:

More paranoia tell.

Actually I'll retract this. You use the word a lot.

[Persivul]

Pedit: well, sorry I said that, I guess. I think I was scumreading you at the time -> trying to get in your head, so it’s not personal, I just thought I’d found a TMI moment from scum

No problem.

[Persivul]

FTR, I also scum read you because I have a solid claim, but you threw shade at it several times. Eventually you came to a good analysis, but at that point it seemed like you had given up on the shade because no one was biting, and were just trying to get some town points by buying into it.

[Persivul]

Oh wow I thought it was gonna be clem lynched. Nice job!