Mini Normal 2044: Game over!

[skitter30]

hello all!

@mod

: i have regular v/la on fridays and saturdays!

VOTE: irrel

[skitter30]

May I join the game?

but in case you're still reading this, no you cannot; you must signup for a game in one of the queue threads before they start
here's the newbie queue; just make a post with to /in: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=72803
and the normal queue: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=76062

==

i have some early gut townpings on clemency

==

jeez, i guess i'll do the work

@everyone, what's your favourite book
lets talk about

something

at least

atm probably the elderling series by robin hobb; i'm on the last book in the series and i really enjoyed it

@everyone, what's your favourite book

Wheel of Time, by Robert Jordan.

Playing with you was fun too!

i read the first like five i think a few years back but i gave up somewhere around there and never finished it

==

Why are you acting so eager to talk but your answers to direct questions are so short?

this is pinging me the wrong way, but i don't know why

==

What about the scum play in your last game was really good?

what is the purpose of this question?

==

I'm here now too

I've played with Skitter and Flubber before and I think that's it. It's been a while since I've played though so I'm just going to pretend I don't know anybody and start fresh.

hi!

==

Anyone else notice the lack of coherency here?

Clemency first complains about potentially having to lead, then later says that he is looking to change his weak townie game, and then admits that leading is his worst townie trait.

Seems that if Clemency wanted to get better as townie and his worst townie trait was leadership, he wouldn't complain at the beginning about feeling like he has to lead. And if he was going to complain, it would probably be more along the lines of "i have to lead and leading is not my strong suit" than "i have to lead and leading is effort".

I hereby state that Clemency is scum playing a chatty opener.

VOTE: Clemency

i feel like you're looking for an inconsistency to push him for here
i don't know why anything you highlighted is indicative of 'scum playing a chatty opener'

and if he thinks leading is his worst townie trait it makes sense to me that he'd complain about being in that position

==

I'm just a townie taking a leadership role while being aggressive towards anything that seems off ... why you voting for your top town read Clemency?

i mean just because he thinks that those are townie traits doesn't mean that he thinks that you're exhibiting them rn
did he call you his top townread? i don't think he did, and this feels kinda like you're twisting his words a little bit to me

==

i think raya might be town?

==

i do think clemency's reaction is a little over the top tho imo, although from 75 i can understand why he's frustrated

==

[skitter30]

nah you're fine

i think the frustration was real but i think it was kinda stronger than the accusation brought against you, if that makes sense, and i'm not sure if you're more likely to have a reaction like that as town or scum

your explanation in 75 iirc makes some sense to me but this isn't something i want to strongly base a read on

[skitter30]

because it didn't look like it had any direct relevance to this game so it felt to me like busywork

[skitter30]

@sash and reaper
Either of you have any thoughts on the bji/clemency exchange?

I thought bji appeared a lot more scummy to me than Clemency
Tunneling over a single idea, so soon, appears a lot more scummy than Clemency's posting.
I must also say that I don't take what happens in RVS too seriously either. It's the time of the game when people get to know each other and when rookie scums vote their partner to distance each other

You're right
I sort of agree. I think bji might've been genuinely just trying to get us out of rvs plus it did work. But I do see where you're coming from. Could've been scum trying to put some early sus on a towny. Clemency's reaction as I said seemed genuine, I'm just not sure from which alignment. Both could react this way when frustrated imo.

this post feels kinda fence-sitty to me, on both bji and clemency

==

garmr maybe town?

==

-I think his playstyle makes him lynchbaity/easy to mislynch

why does clemency strike you as lynchbait-y?

-bji had a good point about him being a 'chatty opener'. It is possible for scum to open chatty so they can easily get a town leading role and it is possible he was faking reluctancy ot taking this role. This is when I started to hesitate on him being town for sure but alone this is a weak reason to scum read someone.

yeah but he said he doesn't like the town-leading role so i still don't get why he'd purposefully put himself in that position

Bji:
-Seemed to be putting in a genuine effort to get us out of rvs (town points)
-His 'attack' on clemency was weak but it was good for the start of the game and did bring out some interesting reactions (town points)
-did have a good point about him being a 'chatty opener'
-Like Clemency seemed intent on starting the game. Something scum would likely not do as I explained above. (Town points)
-I also did consider he could've been trying to put some sus on clemency but I'm not convinced this is the case

what's your holistic read on bji?

==

garmr/skitter definitely town
clemency/bji/sashaddin prob town
VOTE: raya

why am i town? why do you think sashaddin is prob town?
why do you think clemency v bji is tvt?

==

garmr/skitter definitely town
clemency/bji/sashaddin prob town
VOTE: raya

Terrible entrance, non effort reads. Scum or worthless town, kill it either way.

UNVOTE: Clemency
VOTE: Irrelephant11

a) why are these reads non-effort?
b) why are you basically proposing a pl on this - 'scum or worthless town', you don't seem to care which it is? (i don't inherently believe that this has to come from scum or worthless town)

==

I fell justified in calling that a "fairly safe read list", in that it didn't express any opinion that anyone had indicated any likelihood of disagreeing on.

i wouldn't really call it safe - imo most of those reads hadn't been stated anywhere so he was being original; usually when i hear 'safe readslist' it's because someone's reads conform to thread consensus but that consensus hasn't happened yet

altought reading more i think you're not using it in that sense - you're using 'safe' to mean 'unexplained and can thus be changed easily without being called out on walking back on reasoning', yeah?

i think at least part of this argument might stem from the fact that you haven't played super recently and might not be familiar with the connotation current players associate with the term 'safe reads' - reads that match thread consensus

yeah ok that's what i think upon reading more from you

i don't really think the safe v consensus reads thing means much; it's a difference in terminilony that led to confusion imo

i do think that you calling him 'scum or worthless town' and pushing for a lynch on him feels a little policy-y to me and that i didn't really like

I never stated a read, was quite clear to say that the player was either scum or incompetent town.

ie this ^^^^^ i don't like that you want to lynch him irregardless of which he is

==

I am now completely losing in my fight against walling

it's a fight i manage to lose each and every game

==

The following players have not posted since the last votecount and will be prodded if they have not posted before the next one, unless they are V/LA: Skitter30 (V/LA)

sorry, was traveling; i shold be around more now besides for weekends (fridays and saturdays)

==

UNVOTE: Clemency

Removing RVS vote.

you feel like you're active lurking; you have like no original thoughts

==

Seems like you only want to approach this game from a "I don't make mistakes, and scum will out themselves by interacting with me" which is honestly *not* an ideal playstyles imo but probably doesn't deserve a scumread on its own

i think he has a prickly/confusing playstyle but i don't find most of what he said scummy besides for the pl thing i raised above
just a little hard to parse what he's actually getting at
i think he's played not-in-recent games so he has slightly different terminiology that is confusing people slightly, but pretty much everything he's said is internally consistent once he's explained it more

[skitter30]

kinda think bji is town actually

[skitter30]

idk yet

you aren't i'm pretty sure; garmr prob isn't either; also prob not clemency (least confident on clemency)

raya i keep flipflopping back and forth between liking and not

i'm really bad at reading irrel but i'm thinking maybe town here? i'm a little paranoid that he townread me too easily (ie i think scum!him prob just townreads me most of the time; i don't really think he considers me a super viable mislynch) but his explanation was ok for this stage i think

i don't have significant thoughts on anyone else really, although i do think reaper is active lurking

[skitter30]

Spoiler:

VOTE: Clemency

Not that it matters to anyone, but just for accuracy's sake, this is actually my 8th game. I just counted.

Over what period of time? Games in one specific section of the forums?

yeah, i liked you but when i see stuff like #56 my eyes go red and i just /replace out of everything because i dont wanna deal with that crap

And leave a mess for whoever replaces you...

Aren't we all lol

I would agree with bji being a townlean as of now. I have mixed feelings on your slot as I mentioned before.

@sash and reaper
Either of you have any thoughts on the bji/clemency exchange?

More than likely T v T. I think Clemency has a play style that sometimes leads to just what happened earlier. Not an indictment, just an observation.

Would have been interesting to lynch him up tho. Would that be a first?

its gonna be one of these games huh

Getting the strong impression that this happens virtually every game you are in?

UNVOTE: Clemency

Removing RVS vote.

^^^^^ entire iso

only actual game-related content is in 94

i particularly didn't like the last post, where he removes the rvs vote; like there's actual content now and he completely glosses over it; like just popping in to remove the rvs vote without talking about, say, the bji/irrel thing feels entirely underwhelming

[skitter30]

@skitter @irrelephant (and anyone else)
Why are you both leaning away from scumreading bji now?

i mean i think i explained already why i don't find much of what he did to be scum-indicative; what part of that do you disagree with?

also i find the following to be kinda townie:

I was hoping to see how things played out a bit further before saying this but I think now is probably most appropriate: I am not sure my reads on Garmr can ever be trusted. I want Garmr to be scum and I want to lynch him. Garmr is the only player in this game that I have ever knowingly played with before, and I do not want to create bad blood here so early in the game, but it was not a pleasant experience.

that he acknowledges that he wants garmr to be scum and that he is biased but that he is aware of the bias and that he can't super trust his read on him

i'm not super liking that you put bji at l-1 at this stage tbh, where flubber has done nothing and sash and reaper haven't really either; it feels a little early and opportunistic to me tbh

i also feel like the above question to me was a little busy-work-y given that i talked about him *a lot* on the previous page imo

VOTE: raya

i think i'd like to go here for now

[skitter30]

@clemency want to vote raya with me? Personally I think L-1'ing Bji does not match the strength of the case raya is making/reads sorta agenda-y. Agree y/n?

oh i hadn't even gotten this far when i wrote my last post, yeah i agree with this tbh

[skitter30]

@Skitter Going through walls it ta bit hard Since it's so unfocused I'd rather if you did a wall that focus's on one player per post. Keeps my thoughts on track and is easier to digest. That's personal bias through...

sorry, i try to make them readable (i disagree that they're unfocused tho)

i usually use '==' to signify that i'm talking about something else, and quote the post that i'm responding to

[skitter30]

(also i'm a she btw)

[skitter30]

I disagree with him not doing much scummy. When I get an opportunity I'll look back over his iso though. I tend to get lost in wall posts and may have missed stuff.

This is a good point though. I see a post like that coming from town way before I see it coming from scum.

Ugh I need to reconsider again

UNVOTE:

explain again why you unvoted here?

==

Acknowledges playing with Flubber before but wants to start fresh - possibly doesn't want anyone to consider any interaction with Flubber from prior games when evaluating their relationship this round, which would be convenient if they were the scum team and Raya was sensitive to being judged in interactions this game with Flubber against interactions in previous games.

i actually played a game with both of them, where raya was scum (and repped out fairly early) and flubber was town

she rvs'd him and answered a question from him, but that was it before she repped out

there was an early argument between two players there that she called tvt (and was indeed tvt) - if she's scum she did something kinda similar with clem/bji and may have townspewed them imo

==

@raya: can you clarify your read on bji please?

[skitter30]

explain why you think it's lylo day4?

[skitter30]

I checked my 3 newbie games and they were a 7-2 split too, like I thought. Has anyone seen a very different ratio? I only played newbies and minis.
I'm not sure I'm ready for large. Are they harder?

ah ok i see what you're thinking
assuming 7:2, 5way lylo (ie 2 scum v 3 town) happens day3
if the slot gets modkilled and is town, 6way mylo (ie 2 scum v 4 town) happens day2 (ie tomorrow)

if one scum gets lynched before that, 3way lylo (ie 1 scum and two town) happens day4
and 4way mylo (ie 1 scum and 3 town) happens day3

all newbie games are 9 players, and are split 7:2

9player in the normal queue is pretty much always going to be 7:2 i think
but i think in the micro queue, they might be more relaxed and have something like 7T:1Scum:1Traitor or 7T:1Scum:1SK or something; i've played a game in the micro queue that was a specific 6:3 setup

i personally don't like larges super much; there's a little bit too much going on for me in such big games, and last too long irl for me too
minis are just about the perfect size for me

[skitter30]

I have thought about replacing out. But given this possibility, consider that possibility null and void. So that means I have to carve some time from somewhere to try and do my part.

maybe a little townie? not sure

[skitter30]

VOTE: skitter

???

[skitter30]

the setup of games in the normal queue is fairly regulated/undergoes a fair amount of oversight; there's rules that game designers must follow in order for the game to be ran in the normal queue

Now taking signups: Lady Angel's 9-player mini normal. Please /in for mini to sign up.
Note: Pre-designed setup, designed by Ircher.

this game wasn't designed by the mod, but rather by someone named Ircher who has a fair amount of experience designing games, and it's been checked by a reviewer to make sure it isn't too weird

i'm pretty sure that sk isn't considered normal for minis anymore; i don't remember if there's an explicit rule for traitor but i don't *think* that's a thing that would happen in a game this size either tbh

i think 7:2 is a safe assumption unless we see compelling evidence otherwise tbh

you can read more about normal roles/setups here: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=76192

[skitter30]

np

[skitter30]

???

so many questions ....

are you scumreading me? did you vote me for the lols? why did you think that would prevent boredom (ie did you think i was going to respond in a particular way)? why are you voting reaper now? what happened to your raya vote?

[skitter30]

fair enough, fair enough
i can help you in this endeavor i think for now

VOTE: reaper

[skitter30]

sash do you usually use excel to keep track of reads and such?

[skitter30]

TedoxesHalo replaces Flubbernugget.

hello!

[skitter30]

i think sash is more likely than not town

[skitter30]

3- We got to a L-1 for a very short time. Usually L-1 provokes a lot of discussions and idea, but it didn't last this time.

Garmr took the hammer off me pretty quickly. I think Garmr has been playing long enough to know that a hammer was not going to happen there. All of the players who had expressed any scum leaning on me were already on my wagon. The only players who hadn't expressed any real opinion were the lurker twins Reaper and Flubber.

So given that Garmr has me as one of his top, if not as his top, scum read, why do you think he'd remove the hammer from me?

i mean, i agree with you that a hammer there was *unlikely*, but i don't have much issue with the fact that he unvoted on like page7 or whatever in order to completely remove the possibility; having the day end with someone lolhammering would not be super helpful to the overall health of the game

==

So the chance of getting more info out of your top scum read, of getting reactions and interactions between your top scum read at L-1 and other players in the game, is not worth the very low chance of a scum self-hammer (which you'll have to explain to me how that could possibly be a bad thing at this point in the game) or a yolo town quick hammer of your top scum read?

do you think garmr is scummy for having this opinion wrt the proper way to play L-1?

==

Sure seems like you're posturing as if I am your top scum read but in fact you know that I'm not scum

so you can't actually bring yourself to care about my being hammered.

I'm just another townie in your eyes, and you have so many more to kill anyway before you can win the game.

i mean the fact that he unvoted to me indicates that he cares about whether or not you're hammered
and like if he's scum there why doesn't he just keep the l-1 on in order to facilitate a possible yolo-hammer and/or quickhammer?

tbh the main suspicion i have with him unvoting is if he's scum with you

==

ok i read 269 like three times but i think i'm too tired to process it so i'll pick up from there in the morning

[skitter30]

I'd just like to point out to everyone what just happened here so that town can be crystal clear on this:

I asked Sashaddin for his opinion of something that Garmr had done, and Garmr jumped out of the woodwork to defend himself against a question not even asked of him. He didn't wait to see what Sash had to say -- one would think that would be interesting detail that Garmr might want to know right? I mean Garmr would want to know that if he actually needed this "information" that is so important to him that he can't keep the hammer on me for fear of losing out on it ... but information about another player's viewpoint on his own play ... nope, he can't be bothered to wait to get it. He'd rather jump in and proactively defend himself.

Someone help me out here ... does Garmr actually want information or doesn't he?

this feels a little disingenuous to me; i'm not sure if removing the possibility of a lolhammer is at all the same thing as responding to a question asked about you to someone else (nor do i particularly have a problem with the fact that he responded before sash could? like it would have been nice if he did but like i don't think it's scummy or bad that he didn't)

==

I'll say quite frankly that as far as the smell test goes, Garmr passes it. I just don't see him being scum here. His actions and reactions feel very town to me. I reserve the right to change my mind later though, if some compelling connection comes up between things that have already happened and things yet to happen

that make a good case to call him scum.

ngl this sounds a little bit like you're looking out for things that you can use to case him
like your'e framing this as: 'if i find things that i can case him over i might change my mind'
vs 'i reserve the right to change my read if i think he's scummy later'

i think it's specifically the fact that you're using phrases like 'case' and 'call him scum' -> like you don't think or believe he's scum (which is how townies push a scumcase), but rather you're calling him scum (which is how scum push a scum case since they know they aren't actually scum, but must still call them that to get that mislynch through)

[skitter30]

i'm not entirely sure how well i explained that last bit; if i didn't make sense lmk and i'll try to explain it again

[skitter30]

also tex not positng is +scum imo

[skitter30]

It is "I reserve the right to change my read if I think he's scummy later". I shouldn't even have to write that disclaimer since it should be patently obvious to everyone that that true for everyone at all points in the game, but with the way people have been nitpicking my play style I feel like I had to say it.

i mean i agree that you reserve the right to change your mind whenever, but i feel like the way you framed the statement stems more from a scum mindset than a townie one

==

Why are people voting for me! I just wanna have fun man!!!

i mean you repped in and you've done literally nothing in two days
if you're town here it's kinda hard to tell given that you've not done anything
tbf it's hard to tell if you've done anything actively scummy either, but a slot doing nothing over like an entire week is +scum imo

it might be a good idea to like read the game (or, if you've read it already, talk about it) if you don't want to be lynched for being a lurker

==

VOTE: TexdoesHalo

Was unsure of Flubber and Tex hasn't done anything to ease mind.

this vote makes me a little ???? about tex being scum
reaper voting for a lurker seems like he found an easy place to stick his vote given that he's not really doing anything either

[skitter30]

i get nervous when people i find scummy vote other people i find scummy

especially since if tex is actually town here it's really easy for scum to vote for a lurker

[skitter30]

idk what you're trying to say

[skitter30]

yes, and i find it worrying that you voted tex

[skitter30]

that's fair

my point is that you're not doing anything and tex (who, if town, is like the epitome lynchbait) is a really, really, really easy place for you to vote and it makes me worried

i mentined this earlier - there's *very* little actual content in your iso - voting a lurker feels to me like a way to avoid pushing people or taking a stance

[skitter30]

yeah i've played a few games offsite
but i mainly play here

[skitter30]

yeah i've played a few games offsite
but i mainly play here

Well I played years ago. Not here. This is my 2nd or 3rd game. Both in progress. So that's all I can say about that. One completed. Think of it like this, compared to ones I am use to it's like going back to school and being dropped into graduate level classes when you've been out of school for 30 years. Gonna take a lil to get the hang of it.

ok, i understand why it might be hard for you to get back into the swing of things but i'm not sure why you aren't sharing what you think about the game?

like you're following along to some degree given that we're having this conversation so can you talk about what you think is happening in this game?

[skitter30]

hey creature

[skitter30]

i have like nothing new to say; hard to play when like half the game is lurking

if creature doesn't post in like a day i'll be voting him prob

[skitter30]

pretty sure that was an l-2 vote actually, according to the vc at pagetop

[skitter30]

- I didn't like how Raya volunteered that she had already played with Skitter and Flubber (post 55) after RVS voting Skitter without having mentioned it until I asked someone (Sash, Clemency? Can't remember, and I neglected to write it down in my notes and am too lazy to go look it up) about who they had played with before. She popped in to volunteer this info.

Something about volunteering to answer a question not asked of her as an opportunity to volunteer that she had already played with those two and to make a point that she would be "starting fresh" so as to reduce interest in her association with them, doesn't sit well with me.

I will repeat that the Flubber slot ended up being a lurker, which also fits into my general gut feel that we have at most one active scum playing - and Flubber could easily be the other scum. Tex replaced in and replaced right out. The slot is very dirty.

idk the bolded feels a little reach-y to me; i'm not sure if they were ever svs together
i do agree that tex not doing anytihng (i don't think they've formally asked to rep-out) is very scum-indicative

- She town read me for my initial push on Clemency, then switched to using the same push on Clemency as a reason for a scum read on me, and then when challenged on it, just changed her mind. At every step of the way she appears to be trying to avoid confrontation/criticism much more so than actually scumhunting or holding any conviction on her previously stated point of view.

agree with this point; don't particularly agree with the point about 108
(i'm trying to minimize the amount that i'm directly quoting)

- Skitter post 221 says that Raya played a scum game with him where she did pretty much exactly what she did this game -- call a TvT argument (which she knew was TvT because she was scum) and then replace out early. How much of a coincidence can this possibly be?

(i'm a she btw)

i think that when she plays scum she has trouble finding people to push and that she tends to call tvt arguments tvt

she did replace -out early there but iirc she has a history of flaking as both alignments; i'm not sure if this particular piece of evidence is much ai; if you check the replacements thread you'll see she repped out of another game, and also outed from a game in the mini queu; the replacing-out could just be because she's busy irl or whatever; i'm not sure it actually has anything to do with this game in particular

[skitter30]

i agree with most of bji's readslist, except that

a) i don't really know how to read irrel although on balance i think he's prob townie? idk if he's out of scumrange

b) clemency i have more as nulltown than as an outright townread

c) bji i'm kinda conflicted on? i like the effort + attempt to move the game along and push his scumreads, but from how he describes how he expects scum!raya to be playing, i think he tries to approach the game as scum this way too so i'm not sure

d) i don't townread creature which is low-key worrying

==

i don't really love clemency's sheeping

==

Yeah the game is lurky and usually it's easier for scum to taje control by being the first to blame others

who is this talking about?

==

i don't really want to talk about politics in a mafia game tbh

[skitter30]

i feel largely underwhelming

[skitter30]

*underwhelmed

[skitter30]

Yeah the game is lurky and usually it's easier for scum to taje control by being the first to blame others

who is this talking about?

also i'm waiting for a response to this

[skitter30]

i'm not sure who creature is talking about in the post that i quoted, but it was just after bji made a case against his slot, so it reads to me like he's responding to bji's case against raya and saying that bji is scum taking advantage of a lurk-y gamestate

i thought that was kinda incongruous with calling bji town and kinda read to me like he was trying to discredit bji's raya case

it's possible that he was talking about clemency tho? that reading doesn't make as much as sense to me; idk that's why i'm asking

[skitter30]

are you talking about someone in particular in this game or just making a general observation (and if the latter, why mention it?)

[skitter30]

I don't have someone particular in mind, and I make any post I want.

ok, and i can scumread you for making them
that post read to me like you were shading bji for pushing your slot
you're saying it wasn't made for any particular purpose, which seems kinda odd to me, and the context looks scummy to me

==

i don't really want to talk about politics in a mafia game tbh

Well, I don't want to talk about politics in the us politics thread

if i wanted to talk about politics i'd post in the us politics thread

==

Do you actually want to lynch Tex? Because it doesn't sound like you do. If you wanted to lynch him, a modkill should be just as good from your perspective; maybe even better. Because:

i don't really want a slot to be modkilled; it kinda ruins the integrity of the game imo

==

OK, thanks, I really did not understand your initial post -- I actually thought you might be throwing the game out of frustration with the mod.

No. And I know no one knows me on this site. But that is one of my biggest peeves. I honestly just needed a few days to take care of the things that I needed to do in real life without having to worry about possibly fighting off a wagon. I don't want to be a distraction for anyone let alone the players with my alignment. I havent had an issue except in this game. And it really seems like from one player. Just seems like to push when someone is known to be gone isn't very townish. Now I have to get some sleep. There are things I need to do in the am in preparation of the most beautiful girl in the world coming home for the first time.

i think that's fair; i think you can be pushed a little more so that you give some more reads/thoughts on the game
but i don't think it needs to happen *right now*; it can wait a few irl days until you have more time for this imo

i think i'm voting you?
UNVOTE:

also congrats!!!!!!!!!

==

You can if you want. Your vote would be L-1

That's why I asked. Pressure is good. But I didn't want it set up for someone to quick hammer them. Sorry I don't remember off hand the term that is used on this site.

yes, let's not end the day yet; ther's a slot that's literally done nothing

==

congratulations reaper!

the AtE is working, I'll VOTE: creature and see how that goes

i thought you were townreading him yesterday?

==

congratulations reaper!

the AtE is working, I'll VOTE: creature and see how that goes

What are you expecting to happen?

For the mod to confirm my alignment out of nowhere?

???
this feels like shade?
voting someone can prompt them to act in ai ways, making them easier to read
and how other people respond provides info both then and later in the game

like why are you saying the bolded? you know how wagoning people works and why other players may want to do that ...?

==

d) i don't townread creature which is low-key worrying

Then there's this crappy shade

that's not shade; that's comparing your play here o the last time you repped into a game i was in
there i was able to townread you pretty much immediately (or at least after you caught up)
here i'm not, and i find this worrying given last time

==

Okay great this is town creature
VOTE: bji

why is this town!creature?
why are you voting bji?

==

I sense that some players are just waiting to sheep Creature because he's Creature? Like I've never played with this person before or even heard of him, there's no way I'm doing that personally. Even if I did know him, I still wouldn't do it. That's just stupid because whatever town feel you think you are reading from his play could easily be faked.

not sheep him really
he has a rep of being really good at obvtowning when he's town

irrel seems to think he's met that threshold? i don't think he has yet

[skitter30]

that's not shade; that's comparing your play here o the last time you repped into a game i was in
there i was able to townread you pretty much immediately (or at least after you caught up)
here i'm not, and i find this worrying given last time

Maybe because I was since the start there? Maybe because it had more players there? Maybe because the players were more fun there?

it was a 9player micro that you replaced into on page7 that also had a fair amount of lurking

[skitter30]

like why are you saying the bolded? you know how wagoning people works and why other players may want to do that ...?

As far as I know voting someone and saying "let's see where it goes" isn't that effective.

sometimes it is

i didn't like the followup question of 'do you expect the mod to confirm my alignment' because you and he both know that's not how it works and you're kinda like undermining the notion of pressure votes

[skitter30]

Did it have Ausuka and Umlaut?

yes

[skitter30]

and you're kinda like undermining the notion of pressure votes

Garmr wanted to hammer me

you said it in response to irrel's vote

Did it have Ausuka and Umlaut?

yes

That's right

There were plenty of readable players there and I easily pegged scumteam + 1 town D1.

and? why does that explain why i was able to townread you there but i'm not townreading you here?

[skitter30]

Also it's impossible for someone to be so easily town read just on style unless their scum game is terrible. Because then one could easily know when creature was scum because he wouldn't be playing this easy to read town style. Of course if he could then fake that easy to read town style, then my point above would be proven.

he has a reputation for having an awful scumgame
(although in recent months it's gotten better; i think he just won 3way lylo as scum)

==

and? why does that explain why i was able to townread you there but i'm not townreading you here?

Because I didn't need much effort to solve the game there?

so you're saying i was able to townread easily there because you didn't need to effort to solve that game, but since this game requires more effort you aren't able to towntell as easily here?

[skitter30]

so you're saying i was able to townread easily there because you didn't need to effort to solve that game, but since this game requires more effort you aren't able to towntell as easily here?

[skitter30]

I probably won't mind lynching Tex, but I feel like some other players haven't been town enough.

who hasn't been town enough?

[skitter30]

I probably won't mind lynching Tex, but I feel like some other players haven't been town enough.

who hasn't been town enough?

I think the correct question is: who has been town enough?

i mean by saying 'i feel like some other players haven't been town enough' it sounds like you have someone specific in mind

[skitter30]

None of the votes on me feel jumpy (including skitter's "creature is not obvtowning" and Garmr's "i don't mind hammering")?

what does 'jumpy' mean?

[skitter30]

Seeking a replacement for TexdoesHalo. If I do not have one within 72 hours, the game will be paused until I find a replacement or have to modkill the slot.

i think it's incredibly scum-indicative for this slot to have flaked out twice, especially since tex was so interested in playing that he posted without even being in the player-list but then flaked once he actually got a role pm

VOTE: tex-slot

[skitter30]

VOTE: tex
why not

i feel like you're just willing to sheep any wagon

==

We screwed

why?

==

Wow, I'm really freaking curious to see how Tex, who has one post consisting of 12 words, has generated so many votes. Looking forward to my next read...

i think i explained why i'm a little sketchy on your slot:

Seeking a replacement for TexdoesHalo. If I do not have one within 72 hours, the game will be paused until I find a replacement or have to modkill the slot.

i think it's incredibly scum-indicative for this slot to have flaked out twice, especially since tex was so interested in playing that he posted without even being in the player-list but then flaked once he actually got a role pm

VOTE: tex-slot

or, in other words - i don't particularly have a problem with the one post he did make so much as i find *the absence* of other posts scummy after he indicated he was eager to play this game

what do you think of my voting your slot?
(ie why are you pushing clemency in 510 and not, say, me?

[skitter30]

sometimes the answer really is as simple as: it's just the lurkers

i've had three games recently where the entire scumteam lurked (or, more accurately, two where the entire scumteam lurked and a third where the surviving two members lurked for the four dayphases after the first scum got lynched and they were both lurking the first two days too)

i don't think flubber's rep-out was particularly ai, but i do think that tex was scummy for having indicated he wanted to play (posting on page 1; i'm pretty sure the mod didn't post a replacement request in the replacement thread after flubber repped out, which indicates he indicated to her he was interested in repping in) but disappearing after he got his role pm

like he indicated he wanted to play; i'm not sure why he didn't actually play when he got the oppurtunity to do so and i feel flaking in that circumstance is scum-indicative

talk to me more about why you don't like creature?

[skitter30]

i mean my point is that he indicated more than the usual amount of interest denoted by typing /in by asking to replace in imo

and i meant why is creature at the bottom of your readslist in this game, not why you don't like him in general

[skitter30]

and i meant why is creature at the bottom of your readslist in this game, not why you don't like him in general

Apparently the player you hate = scum

i mean i understand that he doesn't like you (and that you don't seem to like him either?)

but i'm wondering if you're at the bottom of his readlist just because he doesn't like you or if he thinks you've actually been scummy here

lolskitter

? not sure what this is referring to

==

ok you can maybe be town?

i'm feeling better about persivul compared to the previous inhabitants of his slot but not enough to remove the overall scummy feeling from the slot

i think garmr is pretty townie
i'm conflicted on bji; not entirely sure how to read him

i have sash as a townlean but like not super strongly or anything

[skitter30]

i mean my point is that he indicated more than the usual amount of interest denoted by typing /in by asking to replace in imo

My point is that I disagree that that's a significant didstinction at all, and comes across as an excuse to scum read someone who's not around to defend anyway.

and i meant why is creature at the bottom of your readslist in this game, not why you don't like him in general

What has he done to advance the game? Nothing that I can see.

wrt to the first - i think it's a significant distinction, and i voted him *because* he wasn't around

wrt to the second - i mean, i can you say that about your slot till you repped in, clem for the most part, reaper for the most part too, even sash a little bit? like what's special about creature here for you?

what did you think of raya?
==

Seriously, as scum you would try to mislynch this person today?

Scum!persivul would want to take this person to end game.

eh this is the first you've said that i actually liked

==

i feel pretty good about town!garmr

[skitter30]

UNVOTE: Persivul
The slot is active and won't be mod-killed, and the guy seems towny for the time I've to catch up.

sash, how likely did it seem to you that the slot would be mod-killed?

[skitter30]

sash, how likely did it seem to you that the slot would be mod-killed?

At that time, a lot. Normal 2030 ended with a few double replacements and I had heard that the mod had been very patient, so I kinda flipped I guess. I just wanted to try to keep that option off the table.

i didn't think it was very likely that the slot would be mod-killed; that's usually used for extenuating circumstances, like the slot being empty for like a week and the mod being unable to get a replacement

i feel voting someone because the mod said she might mod-kill it if she couldn't get a replacement is a little ... idk the right word- oppurtunistic? lazy? sticking your vote somewhere for a meh reason of 'well it's better to lynch instead of mod-killing it'

idk if it's scummy per se that you did this, but it feels a little bit like a simplistic way of approaching the situation to me

==

bji is maybe town? not sure really?

==

Hi Garmr and Persivul, join me on my Creature wagon. Then we can get a claim and see who is willing to hammer.

Yuck.

Wagons are good for town for several reasons, but forcing claims isn't one of them. That's a scum mindset.

i mean imo i think we're coming close to wanting to figure out how to end the day, and claims/hammer is part of that process

==

I buy these reads
This sort of throwaway townread on Sashaddin sounds like the kind of throwaway townread I've seen you accidentally give scum, I think you should want Sashaddin to work for it more before you give the townread tbh

you mean like enigma?

idk i low-key townread him
but i don't know how much of it is for playstyle? it isn't very strong and i don't have a good reasoning for it
the more i think of it the more i think it's like the enigma read which prob isn't a good indicator

also he feels kinda newbtownie to me? but i'm not sure how much experience he has or if he's playing that up a bit?

==

i'm not particularly good at reading irrel but i'm tending town on him rn

==

This was a weird and misreppy way to summarize the Bji post here

i don't know how to like explain this well / can't super articulate it
but persivul's posts feel a little off tonally? like stilted? or responding to the wrong things sort of, or focusing on the wrong things when responding a post. like nitpicky maybe?

Suppose he's cop. What's the claim that's best for town?

like this is an example of a post that feels that way to me
like it feels like he's trying to get bji into a discussion about what's optimal to claim in that situation and it feels a little bit like drawing convo away from the topics at hand and into mafia theory more, if that makes sense

yeah idk how well i explained that and i don't think i can articulate this much better rn but it's like a holistic gut-vibe thing i'm getting from his posts

==

hey irrel can you talk a little bit about your clemency?

==

i think creature's irritation at the wagon on him is kinda townie tbh

[skitter30]

I'm not sure I like the hedge-y vibe the post is full of. Mental note to revisit this if I'm in lylo with skitter

honestly i've been having a tough few days and i don't really have the energy/motivation necessary rn to go back and check my feels/vibes against previous posts so i was just kinda posting whatever i thought without really going back to substantiate it the way i usually do if that makes sense

but it's more feels-based than i usually play and i feel less confident giving strong/concrete/definitive opinions without having gone back to do the legwork

like i just said 'i think x is kinda townie?' without actually going back to figure out where/why i'm getting that from or how that compared to prior posts

yeah idk how well i explained my current mindset/approach but i don't have it in me to play like that today, maybe i will in a few irl days

==

Yes, like enigma. Also like porkens, and maybe like errantparabola? Haven't thought the last example through, but definitely the first two

yeah i agree with enigma
porkens to a certain extent too but i was rethinking it but didn't really know how to sort him in that gamestate so i was kinda stuck with that read
ep was more because he had a few moments of incredibly towniness (how he distanced with tw) than because he kinda had a holistically townie playstyle like enigma did

but i can see myself finding into that sort of pitfall with scum!sash - i'll need to go back and check his iso at some point

==

I think I get what you're saying regarding Persivul. Do you think it's playstyle or scummy?

scummy but i'm aware that it could be playstyle which is why i didn't pounce on it
i need to back and kinda look through his posting more holistically to see when/where he's doing it, but again, idk when i'll get around to that

==

A question to the more experienced players: is there a role (town or scum or other) that would make only voting but not talking much a valuable play? I almost think I remember reading something about a role that can only post a certain amount ... it's so weird that Clem just sheeps votes and then pops in to say that nothing is happening (apparently only votes to sheep is "something happening?").

honestly i think that's more a playstyle thing than anything

==

also he feels kinda newbtownie to me? but i'm not sure how much experience he has or if he's playing that up a bit?

also I agreed with this so I went and looked - Sashaddin has five completed games, and in his first game, he had lots of questions, like heknew nothing about forum mafia. I might buy that she has those same type of questions here (all but one of his completed games are newbie games) but this ISO from the completed normal game had more game solving early on imo. Eh, this is not as clear-cut as I previously thought. Still don't think Sashaddin deserves townreads, though. I bet at least one player who has called Sashaddin town is scum, regardless of his alignment

yeah i had checked this last week but i didn't really get anything conclusive out of it
i don't think the way he's playing is an impossible progression as town compared to his newbie game, nor do i think it's impossible for him to fake as scum

[skitter30]

not really feeling scum!creature rn; i'm not very interested in voting him today

[skitter30]

not really feeling scum!creature rn; i'm not very interested in voting him today

Who are you interested in voting? You've been wishy-washy on everyone.

i think irrel, garmr, and creature are town
i'm tending town on you but not as strongly as i'd like, same with clemency, although he's been growing on me
i don't have a read on reaper
persivul's on the scummier side of null
i don't know where to put sash rn and i'm trying to work that out rn

i wouldn't vote any of irrel/garmr/creature today
probably not clemency either, or even you
i'm fine with my persivul vote rn
i would probably compromise on any of {reaper/sash}

[skitter30]

i feel voting someone because the mod said she might mod-kill it if she couldn't get a replacement is a little ... idk the right word- oppurtunistic? lazy? sticking your vote somewhere for a meh reason of 'well it's better to lynch instead of mod-killing it'

Ah, I immediately thought that the town would have an even number so we'd lose a day. I see it exactly the opposite way of you for mechanical reasons, I think it was a good vote to make at that moment to preserve "time". But I can see why you would think the opposite of me.

Otoh, a scum would have rooted for the modkill, no? One less lynch to worry about...

yeah that's the thing so in context of that other game you cited your response makes a little more sense to me

but like ... modkills are very extenuating and like in the gamestate we were in it's not like that was imminently happening (and i feel like if it were, the mod would announce her intent to do so?) so working around that felt a little weird to me

like yeah a modkill would put it on evens which isn't optimal but i didn't think it was very likely that would even happen; like i didn't feel like i needed to go out of my way to preserve 'time' right then

also if the slot is scum the partner wouldn't want it to be modkilled

yeah idk. like i said i'm not sure if it's scummy but it felt a little weird/out-of-tune-of-the-gamestate to me that you were voting based on preventing that from happening

[skitter30]

i mean i know that you're newer to the game

that's why i'm approaching this as: talk to me about why you think the slot would actually be modkilled (ie to try to hear if you had some sort of past experience that would explain your approach)

and not: it's scummy to push on an empty slot to prevent it from being mod-killed; if you're scum you're using a vague threat of the slot being mod-killed to find a safe place to vote and push and (maybe?) get in a lynch

[skitter30]

Yeah, except skitter has you as town now.

Still, felt like skitter expected me to get lynched anyway

?
do tell

[skitter30]

uh so i think you read too much into that cop thing
but i'm pretty sure that pretty much always comes from town lol

[skitter30]

/le sigh

That was an awful lynch and hammer ngl

[skitter30]

I mean he given intent or a chance to claim or anything

[skitter30]

Was not

[skitter30]

ugh, I guess don't lynch bji either
and probably not skitter (even though she did nothing to defend a townread)

I mean i wasnt exactly expecting you to be quickhmmered here

[skitter30]

skitter should know I don't explain very well my reads yet my accuracy is usually better than average

^^^ he has good reads, is awful at explaining them

He's town here, scum!him never shows up in twilight like this here

[skitter30]

Good job bji for figuring out!

Sash, i thought you played pretty well, especially yesterday, when you were like on nobody's radar

[skitter30]

@Mod

Thank you for modding! It is much appreciated! I hope you enjoyed your experience.

^^^^^

[skitter30]

Good job bji for figuring out!

Sash, i thought you played pretty well, especially yesterday, when you were like on nobody's radar

Thanks. It wasn't easy though.

I'm sure playing scum can be hard. Yesterday it did look like you had bji nicely pocketed, and like you were probably going to win