Mini Normal 2044: Game over!

[Sashaddin]

VOTE: bji
Since bji is not as quick as we are, let them have one more vote.

[Sashaddin]

May I join the game?

Why is a rando here?

[Sashaddin]

Nice wagon!
VOTE: Tesdoeshalo

[Sashaddin]

guys i spilled soda all over myself someone get a towel

Don't forget to bring a towel!



Wanna get high?

[Sashaddin]

Yay Towelie for pagetop!

[Sashaddin]

@everyone, what's your favourite book

Wheel of Time, by Robert Jordan.

Playing with you was fun too!

[Sashaddin]

Do you think that Clemency has a weak town game?

This is my 7th game only, so take my word for it's worth. I don't see her play as weak, because those scums were really good in last game. In fact I've seen weak players and Clem is not one of them.

[Sashaddin]

7 games since May? Wow you play alot. You must be playing more than one game at a time at that rate no?

I always had a single game going at a time since I signed up. I must have been lucky with the queues.

[Sashaddin]

@sash and reaper
Either of you have any thoughts on the bji/clemency exchange?

I thought bji appeared a lot more scummy to me than Clemency
Tunneling over a single idea, so soon, appears a lot more scummy than Clemency's posting.
I must also say that I don't take what happens in RVS too seriously either. It's the time of the game when people get to know each other and when rookie scums vote their partner to distance each other

[Sashaddin]

I am procrastinating on this

On the Texdoeshalo lymch or on all Day1?
Seriously, do you have an opinion on the Clemency-bji friction?

[Sashaddin]

nah i'm just saying my last game felt a lot more laid back and everyone seemed to enjoy it more

Yeah, I had a lot of fun. This one can be too!

[Sashaddin]

Welcome Irrelephant, I must admit your entrance was unconventional.
In 138, there are two that I would like a little more juice about: bji and Raya.
Right now I'm voting bji but I wanna see if there is something I had missed about Raya.

[Sashaddin]

Scumread the next person to townread skitter or garmr, not me.

Why would you scumread someone who townreads your most towny slots?

[Sashaddin]

I actually have a secret read on those two

Ooooh!

[Sashaddin]

Sounds fair|

[Sashaddin]

penis

Oh I love that game!

Penis

[Sashaddin]

i'll buy y'all icecream

Oooh! Obvious crumbing?

[Sashaddin]

Or I could just vote sash for 196

I just camr from a game with Clemency where a guy used this. I don't think he would do it here... It was more of an inside joke.

[Sashaddin]

sashaddin what do you think of reaper

Of his seven posts? Well 4 is rvs. Posts 50, 80 and 112 , 121 are not scumhunting posts, so I'm not reading anything so far.
This leaves 94 and 166. In 94, I'm not sure I'd agree with TvT but Reaper seems to know Clemency for some time, so he might see more clearly than I do about this. He then removed his rvs vote, which is null to me because I do this myself.

In short: He's a lurking null read for me.

[Sashaddin]

I'm not going to jump on the Raya wagon, for now, she is a town lean for me. Post 132 is a good analysis that goes mostly along my views. Posts 201 and 216 are wall-ish-y but are great counterpoints to the quotes in the huge boxes, especially her answer to 139.
I also like the fact she's unvoting, I do that a lot between switching votes so it matches my playstyle.
Right now I'm sticking to bji.

[Sashaddin]

I hope Flubber gets replaced. Killing the slot gives us one less lynch by putting us in Mylo Day 3 instead of Lylo Day 4. Can someone confirm this? I wanna know if I got it right.

[Sashaddin]

I assume 7 townies 2 scums for 9 players, I come from a 10 player that was 8-2.
So if we're lucky to catch a scum in the first three days, it will be 2 vs 1 for Day 4?

Replaced
Day 1: 7-2
Day 2: 6-1 let's assume we're lucky right off the bat
Day 3: 4-1
Day 4: 2-1 <--- Lylo?

Modkilled
Day 1: 6-2
Day 2: 5-1 lucky on first day
Day 3: 3-1 <----Mylo?

I'm pretty sure I got the Lylo right, it's the Mylo I'm not sure about. Never happened to me so far.

[Sashaddin]

I checked my 3 newbie games and they were a 7-2 split too, like I thought. Has anyone seen a very different ratio? I only played newbies and minis.
I'm not sure I'm ready for large. Are they harder?

[Sashaddin]

but i think in the micro queue, they might be more relaxed and have something like 7T:1Scum:1Traitor or 7T:1Scum:1SK or something; i've played a game in the micro queue that was a specific 6:3 setup

I've never played with a traitor so... I couldn't take it into account. I had to look it up, kinda funky-looking rules to me. If there is one, this would be a nightmare to me.
The SK (serial killer I assume after a quick research) is considered

normal

too. That role is hard to win!
I've played only 6 games and never saw one or the other, so I didn't think those two roles possible, I assumed plain scum.
A 6-3 setup must have had a ton of town PR I guess.... that ratio is a bit low. I'll assume it is possible here, so we'reeither a 6-3, a 7-2 or some weird 7-1-1. This doesn't help me at all.

Sorry about the above, I'm a math teacher and I like to have a good canvas of the game.
Is our mod susceptible of putting one of those weird roles in, you think?

[Sashaddin]

you can read more about normal roles/setups here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=76192

Of those mentioned, I've only seen a vigilante (I got killed!) and multitasking. But it was very informative, as I realize I still don't know much about this game.
Thanks for taking the time to explain!

[Sashaddin]

Sashaddin ignored it, which is sorta odd but not that AI

I was at work at that time and focused on trying to learn new roles/structures of the game. My Excel sheet with all my arrows and matrixes is at home, so I didn't have your views available either to notice you were voting a townie of yours.
I must also say that I don't usually respond to an absence of idea... (is this what is called "naked voting"?)

[Sashaddin]

The gamestate felt dead, and I knew that voting someone I'd said was "definitely town" was likely to get some reactions going

I approve of your noble intentions!
This game is definitely the slowest I've played so far.

[Sashaddin]

@sash
Do you have any reads?

Not much, since it's slow. Here's what I got:
Town or town lean: Clemency Garmr Raya
Scum lean: bji
Irrelephant is in both of the above
Can't tell anything from the other slots. I'm never good on Day 1 anyways, I need to see who gets killed to get to solve the game. Last game, I had to go back to Day 2 to find what I wanted, and it was day 4. Made the right decision though!

[Sashaddin]

The above reads were over a day old, I was too high on the Excel sheet... Add Skitter to the town bunch.

[Sashaddin]

sash do you usually use excel to keep track of reads and such?

If

usually

is the last four games (out of 6), yes. I didn't do it for the two first, I was too newbie and unorganized. Plus, I'm a math teacher and I love Excel

[Sashaddin]

This game is definitely the slowest I've played so far.

Does that suggest anything to you?

1- Too many lurkers/unactive slots.
2- Lack of interest driving us into a downward spiral.
3- We got to a L-1 for a very short time. Usually L-1 provokes a lot of discussions and idea, but it didn't last this time.
4- I personally have less time than the previous months for this, so I guess some people might suffer from this too. We've had 1 player replaced and almost a second so far, and this is Day 1!

[Sashaddin]

Does that suggest anything to you?

If you were implying that I wasn't

personally

making much and shouldn't cry about it, well mea culpa. When it was summertime I was on vacation so I could take a lot of time for this, but since school has begun again, I can only spend so much time on thinking about this. I come here 2 or 3 times a day though. I like the game and want to continue playing despite having less time for it. Now I'm not the guy who posts big walls I prefer to discuss a few posts at a time. Like this.

[Sashaddin]

3. I genuinely believe that scum is more likely to lurk and replace out than town.

I am totally agreeing with this. Accordingly, I also expect you will roast our new rookie
I'm eager to see what will come out of this.

[Sashaddin]

Fair enough then. Want to talk a little about your bji scum lean? Also your mixed feelings on irrelephant?

"
Before post 56, I was thinking bji to be town-ish, casual and pleasant. At 56 he's building a case on thin air. At the bottom of that post, he says: "I hereby state that Clemency is scum playing a chatty opener." Well it's bji I feel, sense, imagine as a wolf in sheep's clothing, chatting us away.
138 and 139 were equally bad for both protagonists. The discussion between them continues for a some posts and looks like an early SvS to me, engaging a lot but without real force:

That was a

calculated

attempt to take away your ability to slide through on little effort as scum if that's what you were trying to do. I'd say it succeeded given that if you are scum you've now had to explain yourself numerous times and also been forced to take an offensive against me to deflect any suspicion away from yourself.

217 has redempted bji a little.
As for Irrelephant, his early interactions with bji and everything felt wrong. But I liked 232 and 242 and the justification that comes with it. I like to imagine myself at the place of the person to judge an action and this seemed coherent,

[Sashaddin]

I'm with bji on this one. I personally prefer to see that guy lynched than modkilled, per 228. Poor reason to lynch but better than the contrary.
VOTE: TexdoesHalo

[Sashaddin]

We need the lurkers to come out!!

[Sashaddin]

Votecount 1.6:

Bji: 3 (Clemency, Sashaddin, bji) L-2
Texdoeshalo: 1 (bji)

bji was voting twice here. Trump was right about voter fraud!

[Sashaddin]

Why are people voting for me! I just wanna have fun man!!!

Great! Did you begin reading a few pages?

[Sashaddin]

anyone not voting reaper, come vote reaper

Let's get some discussion going. Why Reaper? Why not Tex or Creature?

[Sashaddin]

I'm happy this game is picking up pace again!

What I'm thinking about right now:

1. We haven't heard of the TexdoesHalo slot for the entire game
2. I like jumping on wagons but I have to have a reason to do it.
3. I don't find Creature that scummy (nor that towny either) to wagon him.
4. If Creature is town, I think he will be a great asset to town. If he's scum, we'll just get him later,

So... for those four points, I think I'm going to stick with Tex for now. I could give Creature a vote if someone can convince me so.

*Poke TexdoesHalo* bc we don't want a modkill.

[Sashaddin]

- Sashaddin feels kind of town. Seems a little too noncommittal to me, and doesn't seem to want to get involved in any contentious issues. My suspicions are based mostly on his lack of any apparent scum hunting effort. Could just be play style. He came from the same game that Clemency liked so maybe he was another player who prefers the "no confrontation, no serious pushes, just keep reading the game and making guesses" play style.

You understand my playstyle a lot it seems. If we were two cops interrogating a suspect, you'd be the one in his face asking the questions while I'd be the one standing in the corner observing and analyzing the exchange.
It served me well in my last game though. But as I am not confrontational by nature, you won't see me pick up a small detail and make a mountain out of it. I pick my battles.

I also prefer Day 2 and later, so I can try to figure out who wanted those lynches and nightkills. Easier to draw links this way. For now it's only speculation and my rational brain can't do jack with this so far.

[Sashaddin]

Do you actually want to lynch Tex? Because it doesn't sound like you do. If you wanted to lynch him, a modkill should be just as good from your perspective; maybe even better. Because:

a. If Tex is modkilled and flips scum then this is just a good result. We want to lynch scum!
b. If Tex is modkilled and flips town, then:
- We still have more time in Day 1 to discuss and select another Day 1 lynch
- We will at least have one fewer town to mislynch, making the odds of hitting scum that much better on Day 1

I just can't see how, if you really do want to lynch Tex, you'd be so worried about mod kill.

And if you actually want Tex lynched, then it is I think a net positive from your position because you get what is tantamount to two lynches before the scum get a night kill. Unless you think that a NK is more valuable to town for info than another lynch; but even if you do think that, you can just vote for no lynch after the modkill and the effect is the same as if Tex had been lynched. instead of modkilled.

Did you not realize this?

I am the guy that needs info and to me a wagon is more informative than a nightkill, because you get to see who got on the wagon, in what order, how soon etc. You don't get any of this with the modkill. Plus it's still a kill, so that's 3 players gone on the first day. So if Tex and the lynched guy flip green, that's 3 townies less for Day 2 and one less lynch available. I think you prefer having a good (scum/town) ratio, but I prefer having an extra lynch. I posted in 228 exactly why. So to answer your question: yes, but I'd prefer not to do it.

I don't want to expressly lynch Tex, I'm just frustrated at his slot for being dormant. But that new wagon didn't seem better to me so I lazily stayed with Tex.

[Sashaddin]

...the most beautiful girl in the world coming home for the first time.

Gratz!

[Sashaddin]

Whatever, 9-players games are starting to be more horrible

Are large games more fun? I wondered if I was was to join another small or large one next game. Do you have to be much better?

[Sashaddin]

Hi everyone I'm not dead, just had an issue popping up. I asked the mod for a V/LA Wednesday but I guess she didn't give it to me because of the Thxgiving week-end. I'll be back over the week-end, right now I can't do much here.
Welcome to Percivul!

[Sashaddin]

Sashaddin - when you wrote the above, did you expect Clem to play the game as he has played it?

Has he played it like you would expect him to if he were town?

Well yeah, when people want to experiment other play styles here they create another account to preserve their meta. Or sorry if I didn't understand the question well.

He's playing as I expect from him: quick one or two-liners, fluff, never a wall. Good opinions though.
He's consistent here, except there are two posts I find weird: 122 and 179 sounds like he'll act different, but he doesn't seem to imho.
Still reads as town to me anyways for now.

[Sashaddin]

Declaring another interaction as TvT is super easy scum play. Worse, when pressured, her story changed.

And no, I don't do preflip associatives, so don't ask.

Nice observation. I see this often, I will try to keep an eye on this.

I totally agree. I hate Day 1 for this, you can only speculate. Having a few flips makes the game easier.

[Sashaddin]

UNVOTE: Persivul
The slot is active and won't be mod-killed, and the guy seems towny for the time I've to catch up.

[Sashaddin]

sash, how likely did it seem to you that the slot would be mod-killed?

At that time, a lot. Normal 2030 ended with a few double replacements and I had heard that the mod had been very patient, so I kinda flipped I guess. I just wanted to try to keep that option off the table.

[Sashaddin]

Can you point out some good opinions?

I like: 62, 75, 140 in a special way. The whole series of 342 to 356 is what strikes me the most though, I don't think a scum would act and speak this way.
434 is... confusing.

I was basing myself on my Excel file because I remember next to nothing because of the pace of the game. I must admit Clemency hasn't produced much else than fluff since 356, which was some tome ago.

[Sashaddin]

he means i'm playing similar to my last game

I should have only said this. He's the same.

I was pointing out that

in general

people have a second account to play like sh!t to preserve the reputation of their main account.

[Sashaddin]

OK so this makes it very clear that you are simply emotionally reading Clem's posts to decide if he is town. I find that a very unsatisfying approach. Why are you so sure that Clem can't fake emotion?

This conflicts with your approach to Reaper in post 213 where you explicitly state that posts that are not scumhunting posts from Reaper cannot be used to get a read on him (Clemency gets to be read emotionally, but Reaper gets judged by his scum hunting?).

In post 225 you evaluate Raya on a different set of criteria - whether or not her arguments and counterpoints made sense to you.

While I admit that it is possible that you really are just applying what you think are the best evaluation criteria for each player separately, I do find it very odd that you give Clemency such a pass and don't really evaluate his play using the same or similar rules that you use for other players.

I am also still a bit miffed that you noted so clearly that Garmr's refusal to keep a hammer on me was inconsistent with your other games but you made no effort to explore that.

You have said some things in this game that had me convinced that you were a good guy, or at least that it was worth giving you one night to prove it, but rereading your posts in the light of your recent responses is just eroding my confidence away.

Ok, here we go:`

1. While I see what you are speaking about, the emotion is all we have on Day 1 since there wasn't any flips yet. I try to place myself in other pple's minds to learn their playstyles and jusge them accordingly. It's a lot better than when I wans't doing much on Day 1, trust me. Clem could fake emotion, what I am telling you is that I don't feel he's cheating us. But I'm not the best player, so I accept that my approach and results can be flawed.

2. I have a previous experience on Clem, who has posted extensively, but I don't on Reaper.

3. She is the only one of the three we've mentioned so far who had given good content at this point. I couldn't do that with either Reaper or Clemency

4. I think you have to evaluate each player according to his style (have you ever played with Not_Mafia?). But you are totally right about the "pass". Probably because I've already played with him and "think " I know him...

5. Well if you are speaking about 207, garmr explained it all: He didn't want the day to end. I didn't think more of this. Is there something more to this?

6. Sorry dude, recalling exactly how I felt a week ago isn't easy for me right now, especially after the last 3 days I've had. I'll try to get back into the game.

[Sashaddin]

To clarify: I'm not suggesting he said that your removing the hammer was inconsistent with your previous games, that was never the point; it's that it's inconsistent with other games he's played previously, meaning that your behavior could be considered anomolous with his experience of the game in general; I don't know nor do I expect he knows whether or not it's consistent with your particular previous play nor whether that play in your previous games was town or scum at the time.

As I said, when someone says : "I don't want the day to end" I tend to believe them. Especially when it's good strategy, I've seen that a lot. This is why everyone but scum hates quickhammers.
As for garmr himself, I've never played with him but I like that he pulled off like he did. I won't meta the guy to know if it's consistent for him though.

[Sashaddin]

also he feels kinda newbtownie to me? but i'm not sure how much experience he has or if he's playing that up a bit?

also I agreed with this so I went and looked - Sashaddin has five completed games, and in his first game, he had lots of questions, like heknew nothing about forum mafia. I might buy that she has those same type of questions here (all but one of his completed games are newbie games) but this ISO from the completed normal game had more game solving early on imo. Eh, this is not as clear-cut as I previously thought. Still don't think Sashaddin deserves townreads, though. I bet at least one player who has called Sashaddin town is scum, regardless of his alignment

Hey, you are right, my first game here was my first mafia game ever, I didn't even know how to play the game when I signed up.
I have played two more normal games, 2040 and 2044 maybe you didn't find them. On Day 1, I struggle a lot because no one got killed yet, that's why I'm a bit lurky and passive. And since this game almost came to a halt I must admit I was putting it aside and stopped focusing on it.

I also must admit that this game has me puzzled, the only scum read I had is bji and his wagon didn't last long. Now the wagons are Clem and Creature and I don't find either scummy, so I'm not voting for now, which makes me appear even more passive. There is new stuff that got posted recently, I hope I'll be able to come up with a read or two.

[Sashaddin]

i feel voting someone because the mod said she might mod-kill it if she couldn't get a replacement is a little ... idk the right word- oppurtunistic? lazy? sticking your vote somewhere for a meh reason of 'well it's better to lynch instead of mod-killing it'

Ah, I immediately thought that the town would have an even number so we'd lose a day. I see it exactly the opposite way of you for mechanical reasons, I think it was a good vote to make at that moment to preserve "time". But I can see why you would think the opposite of me.

Otoh, a scum would have rooted for the modkill, no? One less lynch to worry about...

[Sashaddin]

Do you still scum read me Sashaddin?

Well you have changed your approach and became less "reachy", have made good posts, went into the corners, so not scum scum scum, but you're the most scummy one I can think of right now. Plus it looks like you are trying to white knight (?) me, which I find odd... but thanks!
Tbh, I'd say 55% scum 45% town if I had to place a bet. Not a strong scum lean.
It's hard to find scum on Day 1, for me at least.

[Sashaddin]

but it felt a little weird/out-of-tune-of-the-gamestate to me

You seem to have more experience than I do.
My previous game was 2 scum in a 10 player pool and I felt the game was short; now we are 9 players and I feared it would be even faster, so I didn't want to lose a day.
I didn't think about the " if the slot is scum" thing. It makes me look bad indeed.

[Sashaddin]

@ Persivul:
I was puzzled by the hammer, I

usually

see someone announcing "intent" before doing it. Was there a reason for doing it right away?

**I'm a He, please

[Sashaddin]

@ bji:
Ah, sorry I messed up your mind about that cop thing, I wasn't soft claiming anything, this was like something I've seen in the movies (good cop-bad cop). I don't have your rhetoric and English is not my first language so I can't have your style.

[Sashaddin]

I did.

768 and 770? I'm just reading you saying "Not Reaper". Was that it?

[Sashaddin]

I would like Sash and Bji to show up now and take it away

Right now I'm at work, in class, so I just skimmed over all those pages since I can't really focus on Mafia. When I'm home tonight, I'll sit down and try to sort through all this mess. This is the most active Day2 I've seen so far!

[Sashaddin]

Clemency:
post 895 tells me to lych him regardless of alignment
his vote/unvote/vote makes think think he could be bussing a scum!garmr
860 is ugh.

bji:
not yet fully redempted, I can still sense a bit of possible scum in his posts. Less reaching than Day 1 but now we're Day 2.
but I feel his mind going into all directions at once, it could be a confused town or a scum blurring his tracks. I could extract a few posts but I'm typing this quick because my wife can need me anytime.

Irrrelephant:
either town a a very good scum game. I could go on more if needed.

Reaper, Persivul, Garmr
being non-lethally targeted can come from many roles from what I've read. So I seee there's a triangle between Persivul, Garmr and Reaper. I can elaborate later. Garmr flipping will eliminate a few of the outcomes I see possible.

I'll post and elaborate more later when I have time.

[Sashaddin]

there's almost certainly no godfather in this game

Your join date makes me think you're an alt, or else you've played a lot before coming here to know about this.

[Sashaddin]

And this is what we get?

...but I'm typing this quick because my wife can need me anytime.


...I'll post and elaborate more later when I have time.

I shouldn't have contributed until I had full time to do it then. I wanted to give you a quick heads-up about what I felt. I coudnl't justify on the spot. My bad, I guess. Next game I'll only post once every 24 hours.
By the way, she really did need me 30 secs after I was done with this. My son turned 5 months old today (yay!).

[Sashaddin]

But you've played with him. You said so yourself several times. You rated his town game as good. It makes no sense that you would consider his own admission of being bad in lylo over any of your own person evaluations of his game.

He got nightkilled Night 2, he never got to lylo with me. But this post wants me to lynch anyone who would write it, Clem or not. I don't think you can draw something bad from this.

[Sashaddin]

Just nothing about any way you've treated him or talked about him has had any hint of suspicion. Even when your words say you are suspicious they are generally pretty shallow and don't seem very committal, example:

"his vote/unvote/vote makes think think he could be bussing a scum!garmr"

I'm reacting from what I've seen from Day 2 now. The reads I could have Day 1 are erased, not averaged (I hope you'll understand whatI mean here). I genuinely think this reaction (vote/unvote/vote) could be a change of heart at the last minute in the mafia thread, but I didn't have enough time to type it fully.

[Sashaddin]

In Day 1 you made all this noise about not being able to make Day 1 reads and needing flips to make real evaluations. And this is what we get?

I can't type much when I'm at work. I can read, but there were many many pages added; also being away from my notes at home made trying to solve the game difficult... yeah, I take notes.

[Sashaddin]

I don't think you ever had real reads to begin with and were coasting.

I was very active at the start of the game, remember? I got bored when it grinded to a halt. I agree I didn't do much when it started back though.

[Sashaddin]

I mean I agree with that, but what is AI about it?

What does AI mean again?

[Sashaddin]

In response to 892

Irrrelephant:
either town

*OR

a very good scum game. I could go on more if needed.

Post 826. Irrelephant defends the rep of Garmr. Could be a team, but I agree that's first-level thinking. So he could be town or WIFOMing as scum in a risky move. Also, claiming to have been visited by a nightkilled guy is a weird coincidence.
Same in 845 and 851 and 887.

In 890, his premise is that Skitter's protection was true, if it isn't the whole post is worth zero. Again some wifom.

910 is where the sparks fly all around, targeting many people. Are those true reads or clever scum at work? I don't like walls for this.

So, bji, that's why I still can't tell if he's green or red. I'm not elephantshitting you.

[Sashaddin]

I prefer to lynch Clem over Irrelephant if Sash isn't scum.

What I don't get is that at the beginning of the game, I was active and most of you guys were reading me as town. Then the game stalled, I posted way less because I was bored a bit. When Day 2 began, I couldn't immediately respond to all those pages. When I posted a brief summary of my thoughts, I got burned by bji

even though I had mentioned twice I was in a hurry.

I agree it made me look bad and I'm a bit angry about it. But my main point is: what did Clemency do better than I did? Stayed in style? I don't see much action in his ISO either, and 517 proves my point. He appears town a lot in a game like this one, but he could easily pass as scum as well.

So, why me over Clemency?

[Sashaddin]

I remember Garmr being very.... "engaged" with bji in the beginning. In my first newbie game, I learned that getting in the middle of an argument and taking a side is called a "chainsaw" move, and is seen as very scummy. I don't particularly like engaging this in-your-face type of player (nothing personal Garmr), so I guessed I stayed away from him naturally.

I won't speculate why he didn't interact with me. I might hurt my own feelings.

[Sashaddin]

Sash had just played a game with Clemency and never even found Clem's statement here interesting or worthy of comment. Clem seems to have expressed the sentiment earlier that his last game was won by his town team and he liked the game. Here he says that he's pissed off because he gets pressured early "every game". Sash doesn't even bother to comment. I looked at the game that Clem and Sash played together (Mini Normal 2040) and Clem has no votes on him in any vote count up to his NK. So from Sash's perspective Clem's attitude must have seemed forced. But no reaction from Sash.

I think you expect me to do what you would do yourself. I didn't give much attention to that "feel pressured early" comment, so I didn't go back to that previous game to read it like you did. You seem to like to put a lot of energy in this. I wish I had your time.

But hey, Clemency saying he's pressured when he's not gives ME scum points? That's...weird...

[Sashaddin]

Sash has been playing like he doesn't really care who is scum. Which is why he is a top scumread.

I was reading you as scum all Day 1. Now, Day2, I don't as much, but I haven't found a lot of scum material in thread yet. Garmr's case looks settled, but I can't really find a number 2. Percivul and Irrelephant have claimed, Reaper has been copped, so this leaves... Clemency. But I can't find anything in his ISO to argue with, or about.

[Sashaddin]

i have to admit i don't see why you're picking sash over me either

Ah, my impressions on bji on Day1 were good, and he's trying to mislynch me now since I look easy this game. He's seen how I picked right in lylo last game and don't want me so late in this one...
And, thanks Clem!

[Sashaddin]

I expect you if you are town to play the game like a town player would. If you do not, you don't get a free pass.

Don't you agree there are many types of players? If I don't have time enough and simply don't care much about the metagame, I won't dig older games to find if a boring comment matches what happened last game. That's it. Does EVERY player relies on meta here? I don't think so, yet most of those players who don't are probably very capable anyways. Life sucks man, I have two kids, a wife and a job. Those are time consuming in my life. So If you tell me I'm not doing enough I'll just quit with no hard feelings.

[Sashaddin]

Sash - if you are town, being mislynched is not the worst thing so stop acting like it is. Start trying to contribute to figuring out who the other scum besides Garmr is so that if you flip town tomorrow we can win in LYLO.

I don't care about being lynched... where did I say I was concerned? I was just trying to figure out why you were choosing another player over me. Trying to make some sense out of it. Now I know it's my participation that got lower. Alright. Got it.

[Sashaddin]

I meant faking the target. Assume that he actually is a MD.

A town one or a scum one? I'm confused here.

[Sashaddin]

so stop acting like it is

The only thing that got me salty so far is when you said" and this is all we get" when it was clear I was typing in a hurry. I must admit that since that moment, I have tried to decide if I'd OMGUS you or let it pass I like I did.

[Sashaddin]

I'm feeling warmer and fuzzier regarding Irrel. When a scum buddy slips, the logical move isn't to defend, but rather to bus hard and fast.

I know that's level 1 thinking, but I was watching for the same phenomenon, and I only saw people backing up. So much for level 1...

[Sashaddin]

Just looked at Garmr/bji since I thought that would be easiest and I'm at work. If they're a team they deserve to win. Ruling out bji.

Are you ruling out bji on his own or paired to garmr?

[Sashaddin]

Sash - if you are town, being mislynched is not the worst thing so stop acting like it is.

If this is in reaction to 1020, the 4 smileys should tell you how to read that idea.

[Sashaddin]

Who did you target?

Why is this a twist? What did you think would happen?

[Sashaddin]

dumb

What is?

[Sashaddin]

It should resolve tomorrow. Unless scum have a RB, they have to kill me tonight. If garmr's a scum MD, it's doubtful they also have a RB.

It was doubtful to you, yet you predicted what happened. What is there to think about this?

[Sashaddin]

That info isn't free.

What do you want, need... and from whom?

[Sashaddin]

Claims, preferably in the order:

Sash
Irrel
Clem
bji

I claim to be a normal towny. I probably won't be able to post until tonight. I really want to hear about the others too.

[Sashaddin]

Furthermore, you are I were both agreeing to vote Sash today. So Sash could predict that he would already have two firm votes today, and only needing one more to be lynched, it seems that his only hope would be to eliminate you and hope that two other town besides me wouldn't vote him.

Additionally, your elimination was expected and so wouldn't really give much info about who the scum was.

The question then becomes, is Sash really ballsy enough to count on the above conclusions and do the opposite to throw us off his track? No offense Sash, but I don't think so.

Putting on my scum pants, this is what I probably would have done. I agree with you, getting rid of the most vocal one sounds strategic.

Ballsy? No offense taken. I never claimed to be good at this.

[Sashaddin]

I tried crumbing that I was minor investigative to eat a nightkill, but that failed

Is it something you try often?

[Sashaddin]

yeah but I'm pretty sure town would tell the truth here, unless their hidden PR is somehow gamewinning in a way that hasn't come up yet. Can't think of anything.

A factual counterclaim to Persivul wins for town, but only if claimed today. Because we just lynch the claimer and then when they flip town, we lynch Persivul tomorrow for the win.

So until someone counterclaims, Persivul is confirmed cop.

Sorry I am thinking through all of this out loud. I am sure Persivul understood all of this before he even asked for claims, which is why he asked for them.

I did not think of this, thanks for typing it. I liked the "setup" proof from earlier, so with this strategic one I'm pretty convinced now.

[Sashaddin]

I really want this.

Because of his Day 3 so far, right?

[Sashaddin]

I can find small breaks for posting today yay!

Scummy
Clemency
Irrelephant
bji
town

[Sashaddin]

erfect. You, me, and bji are in agreement. We lynch one of {Clem, Irrel} today. If that doesn't end it, whichever two of us are alive tomorrow lynch the other one. I strongly prefer Irrel today but if you guys both pledge to abide by this plan, and both want to lynch Clem today, I'll go along with it. Let me know if you agree.

I can go with either Irrelephant or Clemency either. If I'm alive tomorrow I'll follow this game plan.

[Sashaddin]

Sashaddin can you explain further why you never once scumread Garmr? I realize the hypocrisy in asking this but want to hear your reasoning

I thought he was town until he made that comment that outed him. He had good opinions I thought but when you know who's who it can be easier to fake stuff up. But he was in my town reads early on.
For what it's worth I don't recall speaking to ReaperofSouls either. I'm not the type to engage a lot early in the game.
And since I didn't speak to them, they also haven't spoke to me.

[Sashaddin]

Wish Skitter were still here tbh

What would it change?

[Sashaddin]

In all cases I didn't have a clearly defined game plan; I was to a large degree just throwing stuff at the wall to see what stuck.

Clemency:

his vote/unvote/vote makes me think he could be bussing a scum!garmr

860 is ugh.

bji:
not yet fully redempted, I can still sense a bit of possible scum in his posts. Less reaching than Day 1 but now we're Day 2.

but I feel his mind going into all directions at once, it could be a confused town or a scum blurring his tracks.

Irrrelephant:

either

town a a very good scum game.

That's what I thought Day 2. Now:
1. I still find that voting thing fishy.
2. I was right about bji, he admits in post 1159
3. I still don't know dude, you're tight. You're having a bad Day 3 though.

After digging further, this is where I'm at now.

[Sashaddin]

I think we resolve claims before entering the wifom-territory of "why is persivul alive"

Is it time for this now?

[Sashaddin]

Sashaddin can you explain further why you never once scumread Garmr? I realize the hypocrisy in asking this but want to hear your reasoning

I thought he was town until he made that comment that outed him. He had good opinions I thought but when you know who's who it can be easier to fake stuff up. But he was in my town reads early on.
For what it's worth I don't recall speaking to ReaperofSouls either. I'm not the type to engage a lot early in the game.
And since I didn't speak to them, they also haven't spoke to me.

I'll add that going back to his early ISO I can't find much scum, and I had him as very townie on my Excel sheet at the time he "slipped".

[Sashaddin]

Post #839 (ISO) » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:04 am Vote 1
Post #856 (ISO) » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:18 am Unvote
Post #865 (ISO) » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:27 am "Derp" from garmr
Post #868 (ISO) » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:30 am Vote 2

The timing of this, all in 26 minutes, sounds fishy. They were both on at the same time. Between 865 and 868 there are only 3 minutes, I imagined them panicking in the private thread after the derp, and choosing the obvious solution while it was still looking good. Looking at this particular section of the thread, I can easily imagine garmr begging to be bussed, he voted himself after all.

[Sashaddin]

The above is a joke, btw. I don’t want to be lynched (before anyone claims it’s AtE)

Oh yeah, what's AtE?

[Sashaddin]

@Irrelephant first please, others can answer after

In 835 and 878 you speak of a one-shot PR or roleblocker. If I understand correctly, scum could kill but not block anymore tonight. Which means:
Percivul has a cop-read tomorrow or he's the nightkill.
If scum is more than a 1 shot PR, Percivul might survive the night without his last cop-read.

For each of the two scenarios, who's more likely to be scum?

[Sashaddin]

If my tantrum can make it easier to sort other players, I’ll take it.
VOTE: clemency

Scum!bji deserves the win

I'm totally lost by this comment. Are you saying the most obvious scum would be Clem but bji might have pulled an exraordinary scum game?

[Sashaddin]

I wanted this because I agreed with sash’s feeling that voting Garmr at start of d2 does look like bussing in retrospect

Good, I'm still not experienced enough to trust all my reads. I'm happy they be confirmed here.

[Sashaddin]

Bji i think you should answer it in case you’re nightkilled (not what I’m expecting but within the realm of possibility)

Any prediction on the outcome? I asked in an earlier post and didn't get an answer.

[Sashaddin]

Leaving work, I hope it's twilight again when I get home.

[Sashaddin]

Whoever is in lylo: give some slight town points to whoever votes first
(If scum votes first for the town points, all the better: it makes lylo a 1v1 and ensures town is in control of the hammer)
Town votes first more often than scum

Interesting. I'll observe carefully tomorrow if I'm alive (and even if I'm dead!).

[Sashaddin]

Clem is my choice too. I can't imagine scum!bji now even though you were my first read.

[Sashaddin]

Dude, are you a lawyer? If so, I know a family that might need guys like you soon.

Nice analysis.

[Sashaddin]

Oh yes, sure!

[Sashaddin]

welp, gg i guess
great scum game by bji, i can't really refute something like that

Nice try. You won't even vote. I'll give bji the hammer, I'll be busy today.

VOTE: Clemency

[Sashaddin]

Good job bji for figuring out!

Sash, i thought you played pretty well, especially yesterday, when you were like on nobody's radar

Thanks. It wasn't easy though.

[Sashaddin]

@sash did you vote first because I had said that the first to vote in lylo should get town points? I hope your answer is yes - I was hoping my “advice” would get scum to play lylo awkwardly and get into the 1v1, whether scum was you/Clem/bji

Yes and no, I really thought I was more busy than this today and felt it was a natural way to vote, especially after Clemency's posting.

[Sashaddin]

Re: Irrelephant's last post -- when Sash voted first I did recall that you said that town should vote first and so I did interpret Sash's vote as more acting. It helped with the decision.

But you can't say my vote was THAT early... or was it?

[Sashaddin]

I'm sure playing scum can be hard. Yesterday it did look like you had bji nicely pocketed, and like you were probably going to win

I should have ben more patient in retrospect. Sorry garmr, I dropped the ball.

[Sashaddin]

Persivul, why would Sash kill Reaper instead of you? Even if he were roleblocker, I think your level of play is higher than everyone else's here so I would expect Sash to want to get rid of you instead of a player (Reaper) who wasn't really contributing anything to town's chances of winning other than being a warm body.

Furthermore, you are I were both agreeing to vote Sash today. So Sash could predict that he would already have two firm votes today, and only needing one more to be lynched, it seems that his only hope would be to eliminate you and hope that two other town besides me wouldn't vote him.

Additionally, your elimination was expected and so wouldn't really give much info about who the scum was.

The question then becomes, is Sash really ballsy enough to count on the above conclusions and do the opposite to throw us off his track? No offense Sash, but I don't think so.

In my opinion scum is either Clem or Irrelephant.

I need to read more to see which player was more likely to kill Reaper than you. Again, busy with work, not sure when I will be able to do this, probably tonight.

- Both Persivul and I ended Day 2 saying that we wanted to lynch Sash.
Yet Sash didn't kill Persivul or me. Persivul would have been an easy
kill to try to deflate the wagon on Sash - not even suspicious, as the
overriding reason to kill Persivul would be becuse he is cop. So Sash
could kill him, and take pressure away, without any chance of being
suspected. Instead the scum killed Reaper and roleblocked Persivul.
So Sash would have killed Persivul, not Reaper. And Clem might have
thought that keeping Persivul alive would get a mislynch of Sash.
- End of Day 3 both Persivul and I were angling towards Clem (me hard,
Persivul soft). Clem's best play is to kill Persivul. Sash's best
play cannot be known and is WIFOM.

Day3 was my most fun mafia Day ever, and it was because of this

[Sashaddin]

And in Day 4 you just trusted your reads. This is why you got lynched ...

With way Clemency had just posted, I never thought you'd give him one cent of towniness.

[Sashaddin]

And in Day 4 you just trusted your reads. This is why you got lynched ...

With way Clemency had just posted, I never thought you'd give him one cent of towniness.