Overkill 2: A Blood-Thirsty Stallone Themed Game

[Reasonably Rational]

I feel like some of you missed the part where like 5 people in the signup thread asked for a chill game.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

We signed up for murder. It was promised.

I mean we could just like randomly quicklynch someone, get all that murder happening asap?

One sec, lemme go to a random number generator and see who we're gonna lynch today.

Came up with 21(naturally I removed myself, and I'm in the list prior to that point, so that's actually 22), so RIP hebichan.

I <3 you, you're adorable, but RNGesus, who is superior in scumhunting skill to this playerlist, has determined you should die.

VOTE: hebichan

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I have a riddle for y'all:

I am as old as Almost50 was when I was half the age I will be en 25 years from now.

The question is, who is the scumteam?

Based on site meta, a bunch of people who haven't posted yet and possibly one who has.

I like searching in the active poster pool.
Which one of us is actually scum?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Can I not be the day one lynch again? Please. I want to play a game one of these months.

VOTE: RCE

hebichan, who was Bandit, and Town Desperado, was killed in Night 2.
15. hebichan, Human Wiretapper, Lynched Day Four.
hebichan, an Aspiring Hero, was lynched Day 5

???

VOTE: hebichan harder for unwarranted AtE in response to a meaningless push, which she used a lie to support.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Can I not be the day one lynch again? Please. I want to play a game one of these months.

VOTE: RCE

hebichan, who was Bandit, and Town Desperado, was killed in Night 2.
15. hebichan, Human Wiretapper, Lynched Day Four.
hebichan, an Aspiring Hero, was lynched Day 5

???

VOTE: hebichan harder for unwarranted AtE in response to a meaningless push, which she used a lie to support.

-Cerb

The AtE that is, not the lynch. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Were those recently?

I looked at her games in the order they appear in her ego, excluding ongoing.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: DrippingGoofball
One of the l's failed to confirm.

@hebichan you think jokesters can't be scum? Especially those particular jokesters?

Where did I ever say that?

I said there was probably one active scum.

RR
Flavor Leaf
pituricchio
Varsoon
profii
RCEnigma
Malakitty
Chickadee

Hebichan, which of these is the scum you were referring to, or is most likely to be that scum, based on your knowledge of their play?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

We signed up for murder. It was promised.

Came up with 21(naturally I removed myself, and I'm in the list prior to that point, so that's actually 22), so RIP hebichan.

Nice try to look all random an casual

but you did what you did as scum.

Post 57 doesn’t help either.
I expected more from Profii, RCE, and FL at this stage, off in the scum bucket. You can get out when you say nice things about me.

Can I not be the day one lynch again? Please. I want to play a game one of these months.
VOTE: RCE

This post is towniness overload.

Let's go with the only reasonable and rational vote I can come up with right now:
VOTE: Reasonably Rational

1) I've never done anything randomly as scum. Actually, I've never done something randomly in a game of mafia, ever. At least, this head hasn't.
2) If I *had* done something randomly as scum, then my choice to do so now would have been specifically to see if people who I expected to catch it caught it(something I could do as either alignment, honestly.), as you'll see below.

Hey kid.
I didnt finish reading but I hope things won't be this active all game.
I forgot how spammy these games get from the word go.

Anyways so far I have a scum read on RR and cherkteeky.
RR typically cerb is the wise and much more thoughtful of the hydra. His random vote and rational for his vote comes across as fake.
Cheekteeky looks like surface scum hunting. Basically asking questions that give nothing and read as oh I'm going to ask this because i can, not because i want a response.

VOTE: RR

Like so. +1 to farside for, in spite of not having played with us in a good while, still immediately catching and pouncing on the change in playstyle, which Varsoon(and others, who should know better) did not do.

If *this* is detective work, and deserving of sheeping, and also deserving of (essentially) some degree of town credit(since otherwise you wouldn't be sheeping it)

So, there are 26 of us. Game started with 22 of us confirming our roles. Now everyone confirmed their role, but only 22 have commented in this thread. I'm almost sure the four players who confirmed last, meaning that the game started before they confirmed their roles, were Wisdom, BuJaber, BrightEyedFish and DrewVa. That means that DrewVa saw that the game already started, but didn't come to say hi. That's rude.

VOTE: DrewVa

Ohhhhhhh

The first little bit of detective work I've seen so far, keep it up. I want to join!
VOTE: DrewVa

How is *this* not?

Can I not be the day one lynch again? Please. I want to play a game one of these months.

VOTE: RCE

hebichan, who was Bandit, and Town Desperado, was killed in Night 2.
15. hebichan, Human Wiretapper, Lynched Day Four.
hebichan, an Aspiring Hero, was lynched Day 5

???

VOTE: hebichan harder for unwarranted AtE in response to a meaningless push, which she used a lie to support.


-Cerb

Please elaborate on the differences between the two points made regarding why one course of action is deserving of sheeping, while the other is the act of scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, BrightEyedFish, I've never played with you before under this name. If you're a public alt can you tell me who you are so I can figure out the experiences behind the points you're making?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You are right, usually RR hold their votes close to the chest.
Though I think I did recently (by which I mean in the last year or so) see a game where Cerb was way more vote-happy and it tripped me up
Though, thinking back, maybe that was Cerb out of hydra?
Cerb, do you know what game I'm taking about?

My memory is garbage though, so I could just be wrong. :/

We were very vote happy in our last overkill game(for us at least, lots of D1 wagon hopping to build momentum), which, if anyone actually read our PT, they would know was a deliberate change in playstyle to see what happened and who noticed. I'm unsure if there was another game where I/we were vote happy, but if so it wasn't a deliberate style change, more likely something about the game made it easier for us to reach the level of certainty we typically wait for before voting.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey kid.
I didnt finish reading but I hope things won't be this active all game.
I forgot how spammy these games get from the word go.

Anyways so far I have a scum read on RR and cherkteeky.
RR typically cerb is the wise and much more thoughtful of the hydra. His random vote and rational for his vote comes across as fake.
Cheekteeky looks like surface scum hunting. Basically asking questions that give nothing and read as oh I'm going to ask this because i can, not because i want a response.

VOTE: RR

Hi Farside. You should know that I actually agree with Cerb. The ATE that was also a blatant lie by Hebi in response to a legitimate random vote is pretty bad.

Also I think you were looking for "rationale" there. ;p

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey kid.
I didnt finish reading but I hope things won't be this active all game.
I forgot how spammy these games get from the word go.

Anyways so far I have a scum read on RR and cherkteeky.
RR typically cerb is the wise and much more thoughtful of the hydra. His random vote and rational for his vote comes across as fake.
Cheekteeky looks like surface scum hunting. Basically asking questions that give nothing and read as oh I'm going to ask this because i can, not because i want a response.

VOTE: RR

Hi Farside. You should know that I actually agree with Cerb. The ATE that was also a blatant lie by Hebi in response to a legitimate random vote is pretty bad.

Also I think you were looking for "rationale" there. ;p

~D

Also ... vendetta for saying Cerb is "The" wise "one". It's on.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I only read your PT in games I moderate. D:
I think it might've been Overkill but I remember going "Shit that's weird Cerb is vote hopping and voting like... a normal mafiascum player."

It's easy to verify. Go look at our overkill 1 PT and confirm we discussed changing things up and why. Don't just hand wave it away. Bad look buddy.

Also ... I second Cerb's questioning about why noting someone hasn't posted is "detective" work (and supposedly the first bit), but Cerb going through Hebi's ego and pointing out the last few completed games do NOT feature any day/night 1 deaths, nor a pattern of such deaths which would precipitate the response Hebi gave to an astonishingly small amount of pressure.

That was gross ATE and slipping all over the place.

Also ... just LOL @ Tails. I'm wondering if you rolled scum again this game and you're just milking the crap out of the last one for effect. Either way that "2" post was genius.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

It’s probably time I introduce myself to the group, just so people aren’t wondering and to give some general context.

Hi all! I’m Amz. As you may guess by the lack of history, the inability to navigate the forum, and the join date of this account, I’m new here.

But why would Almost let a completely new person into a game?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It probably has to do with RR. I’m dating the half of RR that isn’t married.

So hello!

Yay nepotism!

Though to be fair, I did vouch for you and your experience with mafia irl and forum games in general, so you kinda have to be at least semi-competent at whatever you ended up being.

Also, I highly recommend that everyone sheep whatever my read on this woman is, whenever I develop one. I've played exactly one social deduction game with her(Bang!), and determined she was the renegade from a single question she asked before the game properly started, so yeah! Sheep me!

@BEF: Care to share where you got the information you used to draw those conclusions about our slot then, if I at least have never played with you and you do not have any alts?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

This:

1) I've never done anything randomly as scum. Actually, I've never done something randomly in a game of mafia, ever. At least, this head hasn't.
2) If I *had* done something randomly as scum, then my choice to do so now would have been specifically to see if people who I expected to catch it caught it(something I could do as either alignment, honestly.), as you'll see below.

40 is a post where you talk about randomly selecting someone to lynch. I just pointed it out. So regardless of your alignment you said you used a random force to select your lynching target.

Also, I don't believe I have played with either of the heads before so my comment was based solely on the above mentioned post.

does not explain *this*:

We signed up for murder. It was promised.

Came up with 21(naturally I removed myself, and I'm in the list prior to that point, so that's actually 22), so RIP hebichan.

Nice try to look all random an casual

but you did what you did as scum.

Post 57 doesn’t help either.
I expected more from Profii, RCE, and FL at this stage, off in the scum bucket. You can get out when you say nice things about me.

Can I not be the day one lynch again? Please. I want to play a game one of these months.
VOTE: RCE

This post is towniness overload.

Let's go with the only reasonable and rational vote I can come up with right now:
VOTE: Reasonably Rational

You didn't just say "OH SUPER LITERALLY CLAIMED AS PURELY RANDOM VOTE IS SCUMMY BECAUSE OF PREEMPTIVE DEFENSE OF THE VOTE BY FRAMING IT AS RANDOM". No, you said that "you did what you did as scum". You CLEARLY had SOMETHING in mind, some behavior that we were duplicating, from a time we were scum.

So, explain.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I love how our decision to play macho Stallone is playing out.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I love how our decision to play macho Stallone is playing out.

~D

Aren't all Stallone's macho Stallone?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I love how our decision to play macho Stallone is playing out.

~D

Aren't all Stallone's macho Stallone?

-Cerb

Shit. You're right.

I feel like we're "arm wrestling to win a truck so we can take care of our kid" Stallone here.

And no ... that's not a crumb, lol.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I'll be back later. I gotta go find cash and my wife and I are taking 4 nieces to see Grindewald.

Have fun getting beat up by Creed, whomever got Rocky.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Can I not be the day one lynch again? Please. I want to play a game one of these months.

VOTE: RCE

How come you picked RCE out of all the people on this mini wagon - despite us messing around I assume you picked someone on wagon intentionally

We left RVS here, as soon as someone used one of those votes to question the motivation/reasoning someone else used.

No post or vote made after this point should be considered RVS, ESPECIALLY not votes that are supported with verbiage that certainly seems to indicate a real reason to suspect someone.

So no, you were not acting in RVS with that vote, and it *will* be considered as a significant vote where you failed to provide sufficient reasoning, and apparently lied about your experience with the meta of our slots.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR - can you tell me what each potential reaction to you "changing things up" would mean? I fail to see the benefit.

It sounds like you're creating an agenda for yourself without clear motive, which by default is nefarious.

For example, just from my experience with y'all in the last game, I am noticing a lot of unnecessary back and forth between your two heads in-thread, when I know that y'all usually converse -quite heavily- on discord. I didn't read your PT but I did scroll through it out of curiosity at how 2 halves of a hydra communicate.

What does someone noticing a change in your behavior tell you about them?

Unnecessary back and forth? You're certainly thinking of the ND39 hydrae, or another hydra. Drixx and I almost never have conversations in thread, or express dissonance in thread, for that exact reason. I believe my little exchange with him right now is the first time I've ever made a post specifically to address a silly, non-game related, thing he said. I've made posts before correcting mistakes, if it's critical and I don't think he'll be around to make the correction that I messaged him about in slack, but it's very rare, and it certainly didn't happen to any notable degree in Overkill 1.

To answer your actual question: It depends on the player, largely? We have different expectations for different individuals. There are some people who I would expect to notice a change without mentioning it, but it would change their behavior and how they react to us. There are others who it would be weird(like Varsoon/Farside) for them to not call us out on something as soon as they saw it. How they react, or fail to react, is not in and of itself a strong enough reason to identify someone as town or scum, but like any reaction test it can be used to supplement other evidence, or help guide where our focus and questioning should be directed towards.

So no, you were not acting in RVS with that vote, and it *will* be considered as a significant vote where you failed to provide sufficient reasoning, and apparently lied about your experience with the meta of our slots.

-Cerb

I was still in RVS because I had just started reading the thread. I can't help it you got a 7 hour head start on me and used up your RVS mentality before I had a chance to even dip my toes in.
Also, when did I lie about meta? I said you voted heb

as

scum because it was the first post that came across as scummy to me. I never mentioned anything about meta. I don't where you pulled that from.

So no, you were not acting in RVS with that vote, and it *will* be considered as a significant vote where you failed to provide sufficient reasoning, and apparently lied about your experience with the meta of our slots.

-Cerb

I was still in RVS because I had just started reading the thread. I can't help it you got a 7 hour head start on me and used up your RVS mentality before I had a chance to even dip my toes in.
Also, when did I lie about meta? I said you voted heb

as

scum because it was the first post that came across as scummy to me. I never mentioned anything about meta. I don't where you pulled that from.

Your wording... "you did x as scum" implies that you saw them do x previously in a game where they were scum.

What Bujaber said. Perhaps this is purely a situation where you phrased things poorly and created unintended implications, but it certainly read as though you were someone who had experience with us and had previously seen us use RNG to determine who scum was on D1, as scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I can see that RCE. Interesting.

Though I'm pretty sure RR read it like I did, and my intention was to get that across to BEF. He sounded believable to me but RR's point made more logical sense. Figured if they understood each other better the argument would be more fruitful.

Pedit - RR you misunderstood. I was referring to this little back and forth you just had here, which was not something you did in overkill 1. It was me giving an example of someone noticing a behavior and commenting on it.

Ah yes. *nods*

We don't have the experience with you necessary to really...attribute significance to the fact that you noticed that, but there is certainly significance to it. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also we're still voting Hebichan and you should feel bad if you're not voting Hebichan until Hebichan explains wtf she was talking about.

kthxbai.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Nope, not that. The part you already engaged with me about, where she AtE'd with a woe is me I keep dying D1 story when she hasn't been dying D1 lately.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Went right over your head bud.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I feel like we're "arm wrestling to win a truck so we can take care of our kid" Stallone here.

And no ... that's not a crumb, lol.

Whether or not true, that wouldn't even be a crumb but a full on claim of flavor anyways .

Just from my own assumption, I doubt flavor even matters since we are all incarnations of Stallone, which means that Lincoln Hawk could be mafia or town, or SK, or whatever else hell the mod decided to go with. However, if I were to be a mod with Lincoln Hawk as a flavor, it'd be perfect for a "Strongman" claim I think (or at least some kind of "Strong Arm" role) .
---

That notion above aside, I'm not really liking that R-Cerb-R patted someone on the back for good investigative journalism in pointing out that Cerb isn't acting like himself. Read like, "Oops, they noticed, but we'll cover our tracks."

Hurt: RR

For your enjoyment, Toogeloo, from our PT in Heroes Wanted:

Spoiler:

Subject: Firefly/Serenity: Reasonably Rational hydra PT

Also, just for you A50:

cerberus_v6.66 [11:12 AM]
Role PM
Hello Reasonably Rational

You are [full flavour will be revealed upon your flip or at the end of the game]. This ship is your home and the crew is your family. In an effort to protect them, each night you may target one other player to see if they've spent the night in their chamber and/or have been visited by someone.

Role: Modified Motion Detector (You get told whether the action detected was incoming or outgoing)

You win when all threats to Serenity and its crew have been eliminated.
Need to ask if we can see number of actions/if actions are differentiated
Will we just get a "an action was outgoing and incoming"
or "2 actions incoming, one outgoing"

etc.

drixx [11:47 AM]
Quick on the trigger

cerberus_v6.66 [12:05 PM]
So
who are we?
Like
Mr. Universe?
Booker?

drixx [12:06 PM]
Mr. Universe seems most likely

cerberus_v6.66 [12:10 PM]
Yeah
I can't really think of anyone else who makes sense
This feels like a very strong role for us
if it gives full information

drixx [12:14 PM]
So we need to avoid being killed
So we should play strong day one

cerberus_v6.66 [12:14 PM]
yeah
that's fine
I can do that
you can also do that
We might get ourselves shot at
but we can make sure we get protected
I believe

drixx [12:16 PM]
If we had a good role we would be expected to try and appear mislynchable

cerberus_v6.66 [12:17 PM]
Fair
Yeah
it'll be a good exercise to
let's play counter to form

The list is also familiar enough with us that the reactions to decisiveness and actual pushing early will be informative

drixx [12:20 PM]
Yep

-------------------------------------------

The beginnings of our conversation. We have started plotting. So you'll get to see us be different. This should be interesting

*shrug* View it however you want, but it's a thing we do.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I feel like we're "arm wrestling to win a truck so we can take care of our kid" Stallone here.

And no ... that's not a crumb, lol.

Whether or not true, that wouldn't even be a crumb but a full on claim of flavor anyways .

Just from my own assumption, I doubt flavor even matters since we are all incarnations of Stallone, which means that Lincoln Hawk could be mafia or town, or SK, or whatever else hell the mod decided to go with. However, if I were to be a mod with Lincoln Hawk as a flavor, it'd be perfect for a "Strongman" claim I think (or at least some kind of "Strong Arm" role) .
---

That notion above aside, I'm not really liking that R-Cerb-R patted someone on the back for good investigative journalism in pointing out that Cerb isn't acting like himself. Read like, "Oops, they noticed, but we'll cover our tracks."

Hurt: RR

For your enjoyment, Toogeloo, from our PT in Heroes Wanted:

Spoiler:

Subject: Firefly/Serenity: Reasonably Rational hydra PT

Also, just for you A50:

cerberus_v6.66 [11:12 AM]
Role PM
Hello Reasonably Rational

You are [full flavour will be revealed upon your flip or at the end of the game]. This ship is your home and the crew is your family. In an effort to protect them, each night you may target one other player to see if they've spent the night in their chamber and/or have been visited by someone.

Role: Modified Motion Detector (You get told whether the action detected was incoming or outgoing)

You win when all threats to Serenity and its crew have been eliminated.
Need to ask if we can see number of actions/if actions are differentiated
Will we just get a "an action was outgoing and incoming"
or "2 actions incoming, one outgoing"

etc.

drixx [11:47 AM]
Quick on the trigger

cerberus_v6.66 [12:05 PM]
So
who are we?
Like
Mr. Universe?
Booker?

drixx [12:06 PM]
Mr. Universe seems most likely

cerberus_v6.66 [12:10 PM]
Yeah
I can't really think of anyone else who makes sense
This feels like a very strong role for us
if it gives full information

drixx [12:14 PM]
So we need to avoid being killed
So we should play strong day one

cerberus_v6.66 [12:14 PM]
yeah
that's fine
I can do that
you can also do that
We might get ourselves shot at
but we can make sure we get protected
I believe

drixx [12:16 PM]
If we had a good role we would be expected to try and appear mislynchable

cerberus_v6.66 [12:17 PM]
Fair
Yeah
it'll be a good exercise to
let's play counter to form

The list is also familiar enough with us that the reactions to decisiveness and actual pushing early will be informative

drixx [12:20 PM]
Yep

-------------------------------------------

The beginnings of our conversation. We have started plotting. So you'll get to see us be different. This should be interesting

*shrug* View it however you want, but it's a thing we do.

-Cerb

PT in Firefly, not Heroes Wanted, sorry!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Nancy, you're clearly aware of your meta, so everything you're saying is NAI right now.

QFT.

Though with the caveat that she DOES have limited scum time on this site, so her ability to hide the minor differences between her groupscum and town metas might be limited...but she's definitely self aware enough to at least attempt to replicate her town meta as scum.

Fair warning though Nancy, blowing up whenever someone votes you as town is simply going to get you 1)vigged an unreasonable amount of the time, and 2) lynched D1 because who the fuck wants to deal with that?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I vomited up blood this morning!
Anyway I'll be fine, just have had a really painful cough and infection.
I dunno why people think I'm town based on what I've posted so far especially in light of BoR which was a setup with TONS OF KILLS where I intentionally kept a low profile to try to duck shots.
DrewVa--what makes me inactive garbage play here town compared to my inactive garbage play in BoR?
Also yeah I truly did forget

and screw up how desperado worked

like 4 times publicly in that setup so I should be ashamed of myself because it wasn't even a rhetorical ploy it was just me loud-derping.

This is disappointing Varsoon, and your shame is warranted. I still love you, but yeah.

So, can someone tell me why people actually trying to play the game makes them more likely to be town than scum, in an objective way where(like Alchemist21 with Farside, and with whoever liked our slot for the same thing) just the fact that they did it gives them town credit? It feels like something that's super meta based...not everyone who plays scum tries to let town fumble around for as long as possible before getting into the game, and assuming that moving the game out of RVS is a town thing to do is essentially assuming that all scum play that way.

-Cerb

pedit: Also yeah, dude, doctor plz k?

[Reasonably Rational]

I went doctor without insurance, just visiting cost 128 bucks.
I'll pick up my prescriptions tonight and let ya'll know the damage.
It wasn't like gallons of blood or anything and I've been coughing up blood in the morning too.
It's a really bad cough. I mean, bad enough to induce vomiting, which is pretty bad.

Anyway.

I think that it's mostly that this is a setup with a lot of potential kills in it so people don't wanna stick their neck out too far out of concern of catching a bullet. Given how A50's approached role design before, it's safe to say a lot of people are PRs that they feel could help solve the game--or they're literally a role that needs to survive--or they're scum. So it makes sense from a survival standpoint that people wanna kinda keep from dedicating to anything too hard in case they offend the wrong person and catch lead for it, but it's not like BoR where literally 2/3 the playerbase could day-shoot you so I don't agree with the hesitation to just town hard in the paint and not solvegame. I get it, like, people don't wanna die and, typically, not wanting to die is seen as a scum trait, but I disagree with it entirely.

This is a Stallone game. We're meant to jump into this guns blazing, right?

Fuck yeah.

So where's your conviction? Where are your pushes? Go go Varsoon, venture forth and catch the scum!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Farside: Amzela is my gf, not Drixxs, and I think I would rather let her answer any questions directed at her. With regards to the playstyle change, it's experimental, and recent.

I mean, Hebi is still questionable imo. Bef is town if we believe they weren't making a meta comment on our slot. All the thoughts I have!
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Farside: Amzela is my gf, not Drixxs, and I think I would rather let her answer any questions directed at her. With regards to the playstyle change, it's experimental, and recent.

I mean, Hebi is still questionable imo. Bef is town if we believe they weren't making a meta comment on our slot. All the thoughts I have!
-Cerb

I know they didn't. There vote read as serious.
If you disagree with that, explain to me how it wasn't a serious vote

It did read as serious, but I don't really see scum taking that line because it really does have terrible optics. Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit, but yeah.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm glad that both RR and RCE had nothing to say in response to me.
Wild.

Honestly, I read your posts and was like hmm, that's more substance than most d1 pushes, I'll look into it when I have time,and also damn I enjoy player Varsoons posting style.

The looking into it just hasn't happened yet.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR: How would you feel if I got Amzela lynched?

@Wisdom: Why are you townreading Amzela?

Still catching up on the overnight posts, but its early and I'll forget this if i don't respond now.

I would feel the same way i would if Varsoon, or Chickadee, or anyone else I've chatted with enough to grow fond of were to be lynched this early: sad that I don't get to play with them more, relieved that I won't have to deal with the mental strain of being objective about someone I actively want to remain in the game, but also disappointed in the survival skills of anyone who can't avoid being lynched on D1. Also a little guilty for throwing her into the deep end of this particular forum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The amount of people SK-reading people is staggering.

Why do you care? Without any scum flips anybody scummy is scum. Only when groupscum flips you can then say something like "This guy is scummy but because of reason x he is not groupscum with flipped scum, he might be scum of a different faction or SK"

Even if you are right about someone being SK you are helping scum by pointing out 3p. You shouldn't care about SK at this stage. Scumhunt.

I can give you at least two examples where scum v SK ended up helping town that I witnessed myself. I'm sure most of you have examples also.

@Cerb - how shy is amz? At what point should we consider inactivity to be AI?.

Well, I was going to say that I'm not going to speak with her with regards to her activity/play/what you should expect from her, but it seems she showed up to say things.

@RR and anyone else who thinks they know:

What is your scum range? How would you characterize the difference between your town meta and scum meta?

It occurs to me that for someone like you (someone whose posts are kinda emotionless) the line becomes rather blurry.

But tails here claims you're already out of your scum range.

Yeah, Tails shouldn't actually have any idea of what my scum range is....BUT that's not what he said, I don't believe. He seems more certain that we're in our town range, than out of our scum range, which is a position he can have given that he *has* seen us as town. With that said, the actual answer to your question is: I'm fairly unaware of any difference between town meta and scum meta. I'm hyper-self-aware of my posting as both town and scum. I'm more likely to be sloppy and say something that will stir up shit I don't want to stir up as scum(that is, I'll probably review a post more before making it, and/or run controversial things by my partners/other head if hydraing) than I will as town, but I am still pretty damn aware of those things. It's sort of like as town I'll notice something while posting, and post it anyways because fuck it...while as scum I will probably still post it, but I might tweak/polish it a bit depending on feedback. Scum!me does a lot to actively help town solve the game(which is why I've been quite successful in my limited time as 3p here I imagine), and comes up with plans and shit to solve the game, the same way town me does...but those plans don't work because of information only scum are privy to, or because of fundamental flaws in reasoning that town is making that I don't correct, which I would correct as town.

So, honestly: The best way to tell if I'm out of my town range is probably to massively BoP me(if i'm engaged and paying attention) with regards to mechanical gamesolving things. There's always subjective bits to such discussions, like the fundamental setup spec someone has might be flawed in my opinion, but if everything mechanically seems to go a certain direction, and I'm not agreeing with a guaranteed win type scenario, that doesn't require assuming unproven things are true(because I will never simply accept that a mason pair is a mason pair, for example, until one flips/mod confirmation comes in some way or another), or I'm resistant about the evident flaws in a plan...then you might be looking at a scum!me.

Of course, to find that you need to be at least as good at finding mechanically optimal solutions to games as I am, and as good at arguing in favor of your purely logical position as I am, because otherwise it's unlikely you'll actually realize the path I'm leading town down doesn't actually work if assumption x y or z is incorrect, and I'm too certain those things are true....and there really aren't very many people I've played with(if any) who pair those two things as well as I do.

@Amz: Real talk though, Wisdom asked you a specific question about your read on DrewVa, and you ignored it. Why no response at all ,not even a "i'm too busy to actually have an opinion on them yet." All you did was back off the vote on Wisdom, but gave no content.

I'm pretty sure you're really just a bit lost right now, but I don't know if it's because you're completely clueless town or newbscum too afraid to actually push anything.

-Cerb

pedit: Right, Drewva's majiffy case thing, and the wisdom thing: 1) your repeated apparent assertion that because Wisdom was scum in the game he was linking, his point that you can't keep using a single game and the fallout as a way to dodge all negative interactions with him, is bullshit. The fact that he was scum does not change the fact that no, you actually can't keep hiding behind that. With regards to the Majiffy thing: I don't think I've played with Majiffy much, I haven't read the game you posted, nor will I, unless he gets to like L-1 and I need to make a hammer decision, but I really doubt the content generated in what, 36 hours, is enough to establish a firm read on whether he's behaving abnormally. Give it a few more days and if that trend holds, I can see it(which is why you probably shouldn't have pushed this so hard so quickly,b ecause now he's alerted to it!), but right now there simply isn't enough evidence that whatever is different about his play, if there is a difference, it's just static.

[Reasonably Rational]

BEF, when you manage to get caught up, talk to me. I’m not discussing old posts.

Posts from 14 hours prior are "old posts"? You flew off the handle at like less than 25% of the votes needed to be lynched and demanded to be hard town read by people because you flew off the handle. Those will

NEVER

be "old posts" for as long as you remain alive in this game.

At this point if you actually

ARE

town, you should be trying to figure out how to get yourself night killed because you are a walking "Leave me till M/LYLO so you can win" sign for scum.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Im really sorry to do this but

mod please replace me

I joined this for selfish reasons and I realized today I'm using this as a crux to avoid doing things IRL.

<3 Farside, I hope things get better for you.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR made note that Thor was acting more like his scum self in that game, so maybe not? Also, I think we have a few more strong personalities in this game.

To be more exact, Drixx noted that Thor was being scummy because of some obvious insincere posting/BoP type posting on Thor's part, where he pushed things that he really should have known better than to push were he town. I haven't seen scum!thor outside of that game though, I don't believe, so this head at least can't say whether the rest of his play was in line with what we should expect from scum!thor.

With regards to having less presence than I did in Overkill 1...that might be accurate? I've been reading a lot while not at a PC, and haven't seen many things that needed to be commented on, so I just haven't bothered. *shrug*

-Cerb

pedit: If there's a mechanical way you can prove yourself as town, DrewVa, you shouldn't be hinting about it now. And if there ISN'T a mechanical way to prove yourself as town, there is no way to do so, which means by hinting at the existence of such a thing you've set expectations for your slot that you can't fulfill and guaranteed that you will be lynched at some point if the game goes on long enough.

[Reasonably Rational]

I expect more activity from creature,

thor, RR

, CT.

Both Thor and RR have posted every day. Was there more you were expecting there? Were you expecting uber posting?

They both took a commanding role in overkill 1.
Granted Thor was SK so perhaps not the best comparison but I assume he was playing similar to how he would as town. I've never been SK just seems like the right way to play it.

We always take a commanding role, regardless of alignment. We don't always do it in the early parts of day one in a very large game. We also don't always ignore relatives in town for major holidays (I've had family over for a week already, for example).

Also ... we've already put out at least two solid rationales for why Hebichan and Drewva are looking quite bad from things they posted this game. I'm not sure how much more other people are "commanding" the game atm? I see a lot of people ignoring or hand waving away Hebichan's lying and by some bizarre twist of reasoning, nearly everyone seems to think Nancy's histrionics and circular reasoning are a reason to town read the Drewva hydra.

Not sure what more you want here bud. Maybe be a bit more specific?

~D

Happy Thanksgiving to all the {Insert correct terminology here}™

[Reasonably Rational]

RR made note that Thor was acting more like his scum self in that game, so maybe not? Also, I think we have a few more strong personalities in this game.

LOL. No. I flat out told the game that Thor was scum and Thor was scum. All you need to read Thor is experience playing against him if you are scum and he isn't. Modding a game he plays in will probably help also since you get the outside view. He's terrifying if you're scum and he's town but he has some really deep grooves he tends to stick to as well.

Also maybe I'm giving everyone a really high BoP here because I think somehow nobody else really saw it in OK1? It seems pretty straightforward to me though. He's a bit less active this game than I'd like, but the early trend seems very much town on him, if you're wondering. I still have him in the null stack in my mind though. Waiting to see something specific in his posting.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

P.edit Drixx, I think you’re being kind of mean to me here. Please stop it. Thanks.

You're wrong. Mafia is a game of rhetoric. If you can't handle people

accurately

describing your posting/actions, then that's on you ... not on us/them. Only YOU can control your behavior. Trying to bully other people into pretending you are not doing the bad things you are doing is actually even

worse

than what you did in the first place. You need to engage in some self reflection, especially if you think that I, of all people, am having a personal go at you.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Awww this is the part that I didn't miss from this place. Shut the hell up both of you and

focus on the game.

@Nancy I believe you when you say you're not faking your emotions, that has nothing to do with the game itself, you could be frustrated either as town or as scum. But Drixx is not saying the opposite

That's what I'm doing mate. Nobody gets to make posts and then try and bully other people into ignoring those posts or pretending they don't exist. Nancy is basically saying this:

"I made bad posts. You aren't allowed to talk about them because it hurts my feelings."

That's just not acceptable. Trying to angle shoot and tell someone they are mean or bad or wrong for just talking about what exists is ridiculous and awful. I am not going out of my way to attack or even saying things unpleasantly here. At the same time, I'm simply not willing to pretend someone (anyone really; doesn't matter to me who it is) didn't do something because they drop ATE in the thread and threaten to replace out if I don't pretend they didn't say/do what they did.

I mean ... Tails waged a "You guys just hate me personally" campaign against Cerb and I in OK1 because he was dead to rights nailed as scum (and neither of us had any prior games with Tails, to our knowledge). People frequently try to make things "personal" on this site in order to try and claim that the person or people suspicious of them are really "out of bounds" because it's "personal" and "mean". It is also worth noting that I've been playing with scum!Nancy quite a lot in the past couple months (Hero's Wanted; Overkill 1 Serenity) and this kind of posting is spot on what she did in both those games.

Now ... as much as I abhor the idea of adults actually believing they are entitled to a "safe space" from WORDS ... and as much as I find that idea patently ridiculous in FORUM MAFIA, a game which gets notoriously heated and emotional at times and which can

ONLY BE PLAYED

through the use of words (formally: Rhetoric) ... I'm really not the type to go out of my way to poke at someone.


@Nancy - I assign a base line Burden of Proficiency to everyone. I also apply the same social contract to everyone. I'm not going to treat you any differently than someone else. This is a game, and if you cannot deal with the consequences of your posts and actions in the game, then I feel really bad about that but I'm not going to further handicap myself by trying to walk on egg shells with you. My sincere advice to you is that you find a way to avoid becoming that emotionally invested. Easier said than done, I know, but necessary not only for forum mafia, but also other endeavors. I sincerely hope you don't run yourself out of this game (because I see nobody else asking you to go or suggesting you should go or be forcibly removed or anything at all to do with you not continuing in fact), but I'm not going to just ignore your play. That is a short path to ruin for this kind of game. We might as well just roll dice and declare winners if we're going to ignore what people do when those same people then dislike the consequences of their words and actions.


That said: Nothing obligates you to keep being obsessed about it. Ignore it and post about other stuff. The only way you get beyond the impact of that earlier posting is to move on. I'm going to continue to be curious why so few people have engaged with it, either way, but that doesn't obligate you to obsess over it. You already responded to me pointing out that your earlier posts employed circular reasoning.

~D

P-Edit: The word histrionics means the following: "exaggerated dramatic behavior designed to attract attention." -- You certainly demonstrated exaggerated and dramatic behavior which attracted attention earlier when you were first at L-10 or so. Those words don't mean that you were not being genuine, and I haven't expressed any belief over whether or not you were. What I

did

do is point out that you employed circular reasoning; to wit:

P1: You should be able to hard townread me!
P2: I only overreact to votes when I'm town!

The problem is that you hadn't yet overreacted to the votes at the time the person you claimed should town read you for overreacting voted for you. It just goes in a circle. And you're quite smart enough to know that you have a reputation for dramatic posts when you are being voted ... so there's a legitimate concern when you employ circular reasoning demonstrating your clear awareness of your own meta.

[Reasonably Rational]

I know he’s not scumreading me based on that but that isn’t the point. I don’t appreciate him using terms like “histrionics” to describe my feelings. Yes, I am not suggesting that I should automatically be townread for that, only that my emotions are always genuine.

Maybe we understand differently the word "histrionic" in this context. What do you feel he's saying with that word? 'Cause, as far as I know, being histrionic is not intrinsically bad
p-edit: yeah RR defined histrionics as I know it is, and being dramatic is a personality treat, not a disorder or anything like that. My girlfriend is the most dramatic person I've ever known and it's fun, it's like living in a movie

He thinks just because this is a game, it somehow justifies him acting like a dick to me and it doesn’t. Scumreading me is a part of the game, abusing me isn’t and his most recent post is very close to bordering on that. If I wasn’t in a hydra, I would replace out over this but I made a commitment to DVa. A50 probably can’t do anything to stop it. I keep trying to as nicely as possible, to get through to him why his treatment of me is unacceptable and he just keeps doubling down and misconstruing what I’m saying. I never ever said, a single one of my posts were untouchable, only for him to stop being such a jerk to me.

Like there is a way to discuss my posts, without deliberately being an ass about it, is my point.

At this point, you had better damn well be town, because if you're pulling this shit AGAIN as scum, you are getting reported this time.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I know he’s not scumreading me based on that but that isn’t the point. I don’t appreciate him using terms like “histrionics” to describe my feelings. Yes, I am not suggesting that I should automatically be townread for that, only that my emotions are always genuine.

Maybe we understand differently the word "histrionic" in this context. What do you feel he's saying with that word? 'Cause, as far as I know, being histrionic is not intrinsically bad
p-edit: yeah RR defined histrionics as I know it is, and being dramatic is a personality treat, not a disorder or anything like that. My girlfriend is the most dramatic person I've ever known and it's fun, it's like living in a movie

He thinks just because this is a game, it somehow justifies him acting like a dick to me and it doesn’t. Scumreading me is a part of the game, abusing me isn’t and his most recent post is very close to bordering on that. If I wasn’t in a hydra, I would replace out over this but I made a commitment to DVa. A50 probably can’t do anything to stop it. I keep trying to as nicely as possible, to get through to him why his treatment of me is unacceptable and he just keeps doubling down and misconstruing what I’m saying. I never ever said, a single one of my posts were untouchable, only for him to stop being such a jerk to me.

Like there is a way to discuss my posts, without deliberately being an ass about it, is my point.

There's nothing inherently abusive in what my other head said, nor is he being a dick to you. He's certainly not being NICE to you, but he's not being a dick. There is nothing wrong or abusive with stating that he expects you, and everyone else ,to behave to a certain standard, and point out that you're not, in his opinion, living up to that standard. *shrug* If he were to say that there's something inherently flawed or otherwise wrong with you for not living up to that standard, I could see you viewing his statement as abusive, but given that he's expressing a fundamental opinion he has of your play in this game and not of your character, your reaction is out of proportion to the events that spurred it in you. I get that from your perspective, emotionally speaking, they are not, and he's treating you this way...but I'm informing you that from the perspective of at least *this* other person who isn't Drixx, you are taking things far too personally.

In addition, this entire exchange, except insofar as we find it more likely that you're engaging in scum theatre than being sincere, is irrelevant to the game of mafia. You obviously can't prove to us that you're being sincere, and thus your focus on attempting to do so is essentially a waste of your energy, while your expectation that we should automatically believe you while playing a game focused on uncovering deception is unreasonable.

With regards to the question of whether or not there is a way to discuss your posts without being a dick: Yes, there likely exists some way to do so, but considering how broad your definition of being a dick appears to be, I am uncertain if one could be critical of your posts without coming across as a dick to you.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also ... I find it amusing that I'm supposedly being awful by using words which mean what I mean to say and which are

also

an accurate description of your play ... but you see no problem in slinging names at me and presupposing that I have malicious intent. Pot ... meet Kettle. (In case it's not clear; we aren't kettles. Well ... can't speak for Cerb. I'm a tea cozy).

Also ... if I was actually trying to attack you personally you would certainly know it. Please trust me when I say this because if you push much further, I'm going to demonstrate. I don't pick fights in these games, but when someone starts attacking my personal character and slinging names at me, I

DO

take the gloves off and FINISH the fight. You have been warned. Continue with the name calling and personal attacks and you will find out what it looks like when I (Drixx) actually want to go after you.

I don't know any way to make myself more clear. Stop or don't cry when you provoke a response with intent.

~Drixx

P-Edit: A remarkably on spot post by Cerb there.

P-Edit^2: Are you serious? The word "Histrionic" is verboten because it's attached to some "radical political philosophy"? Or did you mean the NEXT post I made after you started calling me names and accusing me of attacking you personally because I used a word to describe your earlier ATE filled posts ... and that word was accurate ... and you tried to bully me and tell me that I can't have that opinion of your earlier posts ... because the WORD I used somehow hurt your feeling. I mean ... that's what "Safe Spaces" are right? A place where you get to tell someone they can't use certain words or have certain opinions because those words and opinions offend you? I haven't felt the need for such a space, so please feel free to tell me if I misunderstand the idea.

Because if I do NOT misunderstand the idea, I'm pretty sure it's a very accurate description of what you tried to do. You literally tried to bully me into ignoring bad play on your part because talking about it offended you.

I'm sorry you feel I was making some kind of political connection. That's on you. YOU made that comparison. I simply pointed out that trying to bully someone into silence is not okay and drew a comparison to make my point. I never mentioned politics. You did.

You are literally a thin thread away from me going back and quoting what I've already said and then posting how I would have said it if I want to have a go at you. Please stop.

[Reasonably Rational]

*blushes* senpai noticed me

We gotta find you an avatar.

Also ... please elaborate on your suspicion that Cerb and I are scum. I need to see this thought process written down.

~D

P-Edit: Nope. Nancy decided to wade further into troubled waters and suggest I was making political statements ... after the bullying and name calling didn't browbeat me into silence and obedience.

[Reasonably Rational]

RR made note that Thor was acting more like his scum self in that game, so maybe not? Also, I think we have a few more strong personalities in this game.

LOL. No. I flat out told the game that Thor was scum and Thor was scum. All you need to read Thor is experience playing against him if you are scum and he isn't. Modding a game he plays in will probably help also since you get the outside view. He's terrifying if you're scum and he's town but he has some really deep grooves he tends to stick to as well.

Also maybe I'm giving everyone a really high BoP here because I think somehow nobody else really saw it in OK1? It seems pretty straightforward to me though. He's a bit less active this game than I'd like, but the early trend seems very much town on him, if you're wondering. I still have him in the null stack in my mind though. Waiting to see something specific in his posting.

~D

@RR;Drixx, if we weren't in OK1, should we read OK1?

I know he’s not scumreading me based on that but that isn’t the point. I don’t appreciate him using terms like “histrionics” to describe my feelings. Yes, I am not suggesting that I should automatically be townread for that, only that my emotions are always genuine.

Maybe we understand differently the word "histrionic" in this context. What do you feel he's saying with that word? 'Cause, as far as I know, being histrionic is not intrinsically bad
p-edit: yeah RR defined histrionics as I know it is, and being dramatic is a personality treat, not a disorder or anything like that. My girlfriend is the most dramatic person I've ever known and it's fun, it's like living in a movie

He thinks just because this is a game, it somehow justifies him acting like a dick to me and it doesn’t. Scumreading me is a part of the game, abusing me isn’t and his most recent post is very close to bordering on that. If I wasn’t in a hydra, I would replace out over this but I made a commitment to DVa. A50 probably can’t do anything to stop it. I keep trying to as nicely as possible, to get through to him why his treatment of me is unacceptable and he just keeps doubling down and misconstruing what I’m saying. I never ever said, a single one of my posts were untouchable, only for him to stop being such a jerk to me.

Like there is a way to discuss my posts, without deliberately being an ass about it, is my point.

I personally don't read the abusiveness of the post, as Drixx was using histrionic in context of the descriptive word and he did make a point that we seem to be townreading you for those things. I don't think he was going after you necessarily but going after us for letting you all off the hook. And we have, to some extent.
(I don't trust you but the people you've both called out as Town/Scum are confusing me and I don't want to sort through that mess on Turkey Day.)
(Trust issues ftw)

Also RR;Drixx, this isn't just a game of rhetoric fite me.

That being said, I also heavily think that RR is scum, possibly due to knowing Cerb a little more and their original randomeness, and for you two to "seem to get into a genuine fight" is throwing me off and I am just confused. You do seem Town and I don't think scum would infight like that, unless this is an elaborate ploy to get us all confused.

Also @pintu I just realized that you're from Chile! Come up and eat turkey with us.

Also, I do not think this game is multiball and if so *throws hands up in the air and jumps out a window*.

I don't think you need to read OK1 if you weren't in it. People might keep referring to it though, given that a large part of this playerlist was in that game.

Okay Amzela, let's break down your reason for thinking we're scum.

1) We did a thing that you fail to see a town motivation for, in spite of us(or me, at least) explaining what the intent was.
2) ????
....

Does that about sum it up? If so, let's look at 1 then. Two lines here, we're either doing/did this change in play as a deliberate scum ploy, or a deliberate town one.

If it was a deliberate scum ploy, where's the scum motivation in changing our playstyle deliberately(you don't have experience with us, but you can ask Varsoon and...well, mainly Varsoon, I guess, how consistent our overall approach to the game has been historically regardless of alignment), ESPECIALLY considering that I(and we, together), have *NEVER* been lynched as scum prior to LYLO.

Never.

That is, our approach to the game, as scum, from our perspective, GUARANTEES we will make it to endgame.

Why change that?

Now, let's say it's a town ploy intended to do what we said we wanted it to do, namely, give us some reactions to use to gauge the alignment of those players who have experience with us in the game, but which you simply don't see as functioning that way.

Is it more likely that we chose to discard a very successful survival strategy as scum and draw this attention to ourselves, or that we sincerely believe that our methodology could help us in scumhunting?

-Cerb

@DrewVa: It inherently implies that what you're doing is *designed*. This is a game where people attempt AtE all the time. As a result, literally every time someone is emotional, there will be at least one person in the game who believes it's just AtE. That is something you will have to get used to if you want to continue playing mafia through this medium at least. It is unfortunate that people attempt emotional manipulation, but they do, and it prevents people from simply taking emotional displays at face value. Drixx's safe space comment was unnecessarily inflammatory, yes, but I believe it was a valid rhetorical tool to draw parallels between something those here would be familiar with, and what he perceived you to be doing: Attempting to insulate yourself from critical rhetoric through the use of an emotional outburst. One could do that as town to get some space to breathe, but it's more likely to be done *deliberately* by scum.

[Reasonably Rational]

Why is Thor scum here? I think I will probably anti-sheep any of your votes in this game.

~Nancy

Outside of this:

RR made note that Thor was acting more like his scum self in that game, so maybe not? Also, I think we have a few more strong personalities in this game.

It's coming from early posts and his defensiveness, which I do believe got called out by Cheeky.

--
Sidenote, not game related, histrionic is not inherently bad but has been used historically as a way to invalidate the concerns/feelings/treatment of women. This comes from the Renaissance and hysteria has typically been used as an excuse to mark women as irrational and, therefore, inferior as it was said to be only related to the uterus. I believe that might be the reason why Nancy doesn't like the usage of the word, and though it may not inherently be offensive, it could be argued that it implies something.

Further to the side note there is a lot of language in the posts that one could argue is obviously going to upset someone you have identified as “emotional about being scum read” or whatever

And I think it’s being masked under the guise of “I’m just being matter of fact about things”

I kinda think it’s a shading tactic tbh

So you believe that Drixx and I are "winding" DrewVa up? To what end?

And please don't say anything about spamming the game and distractions and all that shit. 1v1'ing Wisdom would be the absolute best way to accomplish that goal if we were scum.

-Cerb

pedit: AMZELA TRY TO LYNCH US IF YOU THINK WE'RE SCUM. That's just how the game should be played. I mean, you'll fail(I would expect us to top out at 8 votes at this stage in the day, 4 from people who have already expressed some inclination to be opposed to us, and 4 from people who don't care/are scum), but it could be a good exercise. <3

[Reasonably Rational]

So you believe that Drixx and I are "winding" DrewVa up? To what end?

you're either shading DrewVa up because she is pushing something that doesnt help your win con.

or if you are "winding DrewVa up" apparently to no end then it's just unpleasantness for unpleasantness' sake

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

Has DrewVa been successful at making anyone agree with them so far? No? So what would be the motivation for shading them, rather than letting them just continue digging the hole they were already busy with.

The second possiblity, of just winding her up for no reason, is, again, something that would be better accomplished by going after other individuals in the game; that is, if one assumes that we'd even do that, which we never have felt the urge to do in the past. *shrug* Obviously you can't assume that we're not doing it this time, but again, where's the scum motivation?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

How many times do I have to repeat that

I don’t expect to be townread for having genuine emotions

?

You find even one single town game of mine, where I haven’t freaked out at getting voted. You can’t because it doesn’t fucking exist.

Please do tell me how you saying that you

always

"freak out" at getting voted (and "freak out" certainly implies emotion, yes?) when town and going so far as to say there is no town game of yours in existence where you got voted but DID NOT "freak out" ... is compatible with the first quoted statement where you try to say you don't expect to be townread because of said earlier emotional "freak out"?

Because if I want to be pedantic I suppose I could carefully parse what you said in #341 as you

just pointing out

that you always do that when you are town but

not actually SAYING

you should be town read in this game for doing it ... but everyone who reads your ISO is going to realize you are making that point

BECAUSE

you "freaked out" in this game, emotionally, and you therefore are pointing at your own meta in order to get a town read.

Furthermore ... you should perhaps evaluate yourself a bit. You're walking pretty close to Trust Tell territory here. If you're not familiar: A Trust Tell comes in two parts. First ... you set up a behavior that you always do as one alignment (and generally one alignment only, which is what I think saves you from having pulled a Trust Tell in this case). Then ... you mention it in order to gain advantage in a game.

I said CLOSE to and not actually a TT (at least, not in my view). It's close though. I figured you'd want to be aware so you don't accidentally leverage meta too far.

~D

P.S. - Please go back and look at this exchange. The thing you are claiming to be most offended by didn't get said until

AFTER

you attempted to bully me and called me names. I think I'm okay in having employed rhetoric lightly back at you. I honestly don't know what else to say to you here. I could, I suppose, point you to some places where you could see what it looks like if I'm actually irritated at someone and want to attack them, so you can know for sure that what you're seeing in this game is NOT that. I don't know if that will help. LMK.


I'm going to go enjoy thanksgiving now. I hope everyone has an awesome day


@amzela - I don't believe in "gut". A "gut feeling" is just your brain notifying you that you missed something.


P-edit: Ooh ... Profii finally found some reason to vote us. That took awhile. LOL.

P-edit^2: I didn't edit this post Nancy ... but I did see your last couple posts. Hopefully we can just move on from here.

[Reasonably Rational]

So you believe that Drixx and I are "winding" DrewVa up? To what end?

you're either shading DrewVa up because she is pushing something that doesnt help your win con.

or if you are "winding DrewVa up" apparently to no end then it's just unpleasantness for unpleasantness' sake

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

Has DrewVa been successful at making anyone agree with them so far? No? So what would be the motivation for shading them, rather than letting them just continue digging the hole they were already busy with.

The second possiblity, of just winding her up for no reason, is, again, something that would be better accomplished by going after other individuals in the game; that is, if one assumes that we'd even do that, which we never have felt the urge to do in the past. *shrug* Obviously you can't assume that we're not doing it this time, but again, where's the scum motivation?

-Cerb

I'm trying to be polite here and say if there is no reason to this why is it dragging on. It's a bit lame.

No. You've been looking for an excuse to vote us all game. Jumping into a minor personal dispute to have an excuse is pretty bad man.

For the record (for the people who know us): I've been side eyeing Profii since that really bad "reads" list earlier. I wonder who else saw what I saw in the reactions to that. I suspect Thor, Varsoon and Tails all caught it.

VOTE: profii

I'm comfortable here. Too much baggage and noise on the DVA slot to have any certainty and nobody else seems to believe lying with ATE is indicative of anything so ... here we are.

~D

PS - really going to thanksgiving stuff now. Have fun storming the castle!

[Reasonably Rational]

So like, from Drixx's PoV your play is still rhetorical/game-based and him sticking to his convictions of a scumread isn't intended as disrespect
Which becomes more of an issue because he takes a harder rhetorical stance that feels like it invalidates your feelings or twists them in some way/makes you out as some emotional bully which, imo, you're not.

Agree to disagree I suppose. Telling someone that a large post (without any specifics) is "mean" and then putting emotional leverage ("I'll replace out if you don't stop") is definitely bullying. Any time someone tries to use his presence or participation for leverage, they are bullying the person whom they are attempting to leverage. It's one of the oldest tactics on both the internet and in the school yard. "Do what I say or else I take my marbles and go home" is a rough example.

P.edit Drixx, I think you’re being kind of mean to me here. Please stop it. Thanks.

If I'm reading correctly, the above ^ is a response to the below

I expect more activity from creature,

thor, RR

, CT.

Both Thor and RR have posted every day. Was there more you were expecting there? Were you expecting uber posting?

They both took a commanding role in overkill 1.
Granted Thor was SK so perhaps not the best comparison but I assume he was playing similar to how he would as town. I've never been SK just seems like the right way to play it.

We always take a commanding role, regardless of alignment. We don't always do it in the early parts of day one in a very large game. We also don't always ignore relatives in town for major holidays (I've had family over for a week already, for example).

Also ... we've already put out at least two solid rationales for why Hebichan and Drewva are looking quite bad from things they posted this game. I'm not sure how much more other people are "commanding" the game atm? I see a lot of people ignoring or hand waving away Hebichan's lying and by some bizarre twist of reasoning, nearly everyone seems to think Nancy's histrionics and circular reasoning are a reason to town read the Drewva hydra.

Not sure what more you want here bud. Maybe be a bit more specific?

~D

Happy Thanksgiving to all the {Insert correct terminology here}™

I don't really get what's mean about this post.

I didn’t appreciate the term, “histrionics”. I found it disrespectful. Again, overkill. Gamma’s “high strung” OTOH isn’t. Do you see my point yet?

Nope. I gave you the precise definition I have for the word. Your posting which I was referring to definitely fits that bill, with the only "grey area" being whether or not you are being honest. I believe the circular logic you used (and your continued denial that you tried to leverage meta into a town read, even when I went and dug it up for you) makes me believe that it is more likely that you are using your meta and posts here for leverage.

Like ... that's one of the main parts of this game. Figure out who is being sincere and who isn't. You are almost certainly genuinely upset but you can be genuinely upset and also be !town.

BTW - If someone quoted me and referred to an ATE post (which I do make from time to time, unlike Cerb) as "histrionics" ... I wouldn't be the least bit offended. That would be describing my play/actions/words and NOT labeling ME the person. On the other hand, if someone put a label on ME the person ... for example: "Drixx is really high strung" ... then I would be more likely to be irritated by that. That's the line in mafia. Go after play not people.

So you are taking a commentary about your play ... a THING you DID ... as offensive but don't seem to be bothered by someone giving you the real person a personal label based upon that play.

So yeah ... I don't see your point. One is against the spirit of the game and one is precisely the spirit of the game.

~D

P.S. - All prep done, Turkey is nearly done and the last sides are nearly done. It's time to go food coma.

[Reasonably Rational]

Also havin a laff that profii straight ghosted.
Probably to go tell scumbuddies what to do post-flip.

I'm really torn by this post Scat Man. Like ... I totally had my strongest scum read on profii and the only rational response to an apparent day kill is to say whatever you need to say and disappearing is generally the act of scum who don't trust themselves with WINE but ... man this is so much gloating on your part.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh god please let it just be this page that you people are garbaging with your irrelevant posts. Drewva needs to get over themselves and is probably scum because Nancy pulled the same AtE garbage on me last game. Anyway sifting through more isos now.

That is a complete lie. When did I ever threaten to replace out because of what you or anyone else said? Find me the quotes. I’m waiting.

Here you go:

If you won’t stop this particular line of criticism or let Cerb deal with me, I will replace out. I’m not going to continue to put up with that.

This is a pretty clear ultimatum by you. You threatened that if I didn't do the following things:

1.) Stop criticizing your earlier posts for being circular reasoning and appearing to attempt to leverage meta and emotion into a town read (And I proved this already by quoting you, so stop lying and forcing me to quote your own posts back to you please).

2.) Stop talking to you at all

With the penalty for me refusing to do those things given as: "I will replace out."

Nothing I've said to you has been anywhere even

close

to the line. I've consistently addressed what you are saying and doing and made no commentary about YOU except to call you friend and let you know that I am absolutely not going after you personally. I even offered to show you a place where someone provoked me into going after them which would be me bringing up something uncomfortable and unpleasant and bringing attention to it solely so that you can feel better knowing that I really and legitimately am just talking about what you are SAYING and DOING and making no statements about you personally.

Because ... Mafia is a game of rhetoric and, at least on this site, many people use emotion as a battering ram to leverage people. I simply don't try to make people feel bad and while a game goes on I'm not going to allow any appeals to emotion, no matter whether or not I believe they are completely genuine and sincere, impact me. Too many people have taken advantage of making things "personal" for gain.


And yes ... I do believe that making a scene and threatening to replace out absolutely is browbeating and bullying. You are putting social pressure on me to shut up and stop calling attention to your behavior. If I give in to that pressure, then the heat comes off you and you have successfully used some arbitrary "You offended me" statement to leverage your way out of the hole you dug for yourself. If I don't (which I simply don't submit to that kind of pressure; I think it's really bad form and so I will always always always double down when presented with it), then you make a further scene and replace out, which I view as an attempt to get people to take sides.

It's really quite dramatic. Which is ironic.

~D

P-Edit: You really think you're some kind of clean and innocent dove here Nancy? You've slung the following personal attacks, at the least: Jerk, ass(hole?), wrong-headed, obtuse. All of them are PERSONAL CHARACTER JUDGMENTS. In contrast, I've been very careful to interact with your behavior without casting stones at you. A large part of that is the benefit of the doubt. I've only really seen you as scum that I can recall, so I am basically just assuming you are scum here and you don't actually behave this way all the time.

I'm sorry but you're just flat out wrong. I'm well on the right side of the written rules and the spirit of those rules. You are the one who is way over the line and you need to stop. I'm seriously losing my patience with your behavior. This is three

consecutive

games now where you have pulled this kind of behavior. Furthermore ... you need to adult a bit and take ownership of your reactions. I have no control over how you take things and you are literally putting an absurd burden of politeness on me. I couldn't possibly be critical of your play and meet the standard you are trying to set.

I'm not trying to be mean here but you need to hear these two things badly:

1.) If you really cannot handle people suspecting you and being critical of your PLAY, then you probably need to work on that. I don't know any nicer way to say this and know that you'll understand.

2.) If your slot is scum, I am absolutely going to report you after this game. That would make 3 consecutive games that you were in with me where you were scum and used dirty emotional manipulation to further your win con, including personal attacks in each game. That's not okay.

[Reasonably Rational]

So I'm going to try this and hope it works. This is for you

Nancy

:

Fundamental Attribution Error:

I believe you are falling prey to this particular cognitive bias when it comes to interacting with me. (This is giving you a gigantic benefit of the doubt, but that seems reasonable to me at this juncture). I can provide you with links to studies and in depth evidence of this, but I'll start with a quote from a fantastic bit of writing which gives a fairly decent basic summary of the bias:

Suppose you come into work and see your colleague kicking his desk. You think, 'what an angry person he must be'. Your colleague is thinking about how someone bumped him into a wall on the way to work and then shouted at him.

Anyone

would be angry at that, he thinks. When we look at others we see personality traits that explain their behaviour, but when we look at ourselves we see circumstances that explain our behaviour. People's stories make internal sense to them, from the inside, but we don't see people's histories trailing behind them in the air. We only see them in one situation, and we don't see what they would be like in a different situation. So the fundamental attribution error is that we explain by permanent, enduring traits what would be better explained by circumstance and context.

Understanding this is one of the bedrock foundations of rationalism and interacting with other rational agents.

~Drixx

P.S. - Anyone interested in an entertaining and easy to understand introduction to the basic ideas of rationalism should definitely check out hpmor.com

[Reasonably Rational]

Btw I’m about to head off but if Varsoon is not a day vig then we should lynch him - will explain when I arrive and can get access to a keyboard... 110 miles to go do couple hours

This is a bad look man. Disappearing and then beetlejuiceing back in with this "just in case it was a reaction test" post. Eww.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Zzz. This is an exact repeat of last game. You misunderstand me, get nasty and make me back off just by flipping everything on me. I'm sorry you rolled scum/SK again.

VOTE: DrewVa

How am I being nasty? You shade me suspiciously and when I ask you to back that up, you freak out about it. You accused me of doing the exact same thing in this game as in the last one. If you find me proof, I’ll take my vote off of you. I’m not upset with you at all, I just think you might have rolled scum here.

Why is your read on her controlled by whether or not she finds prood that satisfies you?
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh god please let it just be this page that you people are garbaging with your irrelevant posts. Drewva needs to get over themselves and is probably scum because Nancy pulled the same AtE garbage on me last game. Anyway sifting through more isos now.

That is a complete lie. When did I ever threaten to replace out because of what you or anyone else said? Find me the quotes. I’m waiting.

Here you go:

If you won’t stop this particular line of criticism or let Cerb deal with me, I will replace out. I’m not going to continue to put up with that.

This is a pretty clear ultimatum by you. You threatened that if I didn't do the following things:

1.) Stop criticizing your earlier posts for being circular reasoning and appearing to attempt to leverage meta and emotion into a town read (And I proved this already by quoting you, so stop lying and forcing me to quote your own posts back to you please).

2.) Stop talking to you at all

With the penalty for me refusing to do those things given as: "I will replace out."

Nothing I've said to you has been anywhere even

close

to the line. I've consistently addressed what you are saying and doing and made no commentary about YOU except to call you friend and let you know that I am absolutely not going after you personally. I even offered to show you a place where someone provoked me into going after them which would be me bringing up something uncomfortable and unpleasant and bringing attention to it solely so that you can feel better knowing that I really and legitimately am just talking about what you are SAYING and DOING and making no statements about you personally.

Because ... Mafia is a game of rhetoric and, at least on this site, many people use emotion as a battering ram to leverage people. I simply don't try to make people feel bad and while a game goes on I'm not going to allow any appeals to emotion, no matter whether or not I believe they are completely genuine and sincere, impact me. Too many people have taken advantage of making things "personal" for gain.


And yes ... I do believe that making a scene and threatening to replace out absolutely is browbeating and bullying. You are putting social pressure on me to shut up and stop calling attention to your behavior. If I give in to that pressure, then the heat comes off you and you have successfully used some arbitrary "You offended me" statement to leverage your way out of the hole you dug for yourself. If I don't (which I simply don't submit to that kind of pressure; I think it's really bad form and so I will always always always double down when presented with it), then you make a further scene and replace out, which I view as an attempt to get people to take sides.

It's really quite dramatic. Which is ironic.

~D

P-Edit: You really think you're some kind of clean and innocent dove here Nancy? You've slung the following personal attacks, at the least: Jerk, ass(hole?), wrong-headed, obtuse. All of them are PERSONAL CHARACTER JUDGMENTS. In contrast, I've been very careful to interact with your behavior without casting stones at you. A large part of that is the benefit of the doubt. I've only really seen you as scum that I can recall, so I am basically just assuming you are scum here and you don't actually behave this way all the time.

I'm sorry but you're just flat out wrong. I'm well on the right side of the written rules and the spirit of those rules. You are the one who is way over the line and you need to stop. I'm seriously losing my patience with your behavior. This is three

consecutive

games now where you have pulled this kind of behavior. Furthermore ... you need to adult a bit and take ownership of your reactions. I have no control over how you take things and you are literally putting an absurd burden of politeness on me. I couldn't possibly be critical of your play and meet the standard you are trying to set.

I'm not trying to be mean here but you need to hear these two things badly:

1.) If you really cannot handle people suspecting you and being critical of your PLAY, then you probably need to work on that. I don't know any nicer way to say this and know that you'll understand.

2.) If your slot is scum, I am absolutely going to report you after this game. That would make 3 consecutive games that you were in with me where you were scum and used dirty emotional manipulation to further your win con, including personal attacks in each game. That's not okay.

Um Drixx, my response to Cheeky was requesting she back up her bs accusation from Overkill 1, not THIS game. I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings, I tried to get through to you and you wouldn’t listen. I am not scum and you were really freaking me out. When someone begs you to stop doing something that’s legit hurting them - irrespective whether or not you think their reaction makes sense to you, you need to stop and consider if there was a less upsetting way to get that same point across. If you want to discuss it sometime PRIVATELY post-game, I guarantee I can make you understand but it’s not something I care to get into here.

I'd be happy to talk after game. I'm sure A50 would make a PT for us and make sure we don't go off the rails.

What I really need you to understand in the time between now and then is this: You are setting way to wide and unreasonable an expectation. Sometimes people will say something that impacts you in an unusually hard manner which they cannot anticipate. You have said that's what happened here. Also please notice that I haven't gone back to the two specific things you pointed out since you pointed them out. The line, for me, is the actual things that I know will inflict hurt for no good reason (and there's few to no good reasons to hurt someone over a forum mafia game). That's the line. You can't block off entire portions of a game because something tangential to them was uncomfortable.

Obviously I don't go around trying to hurt people. Anyone who has played with me or talked to me at all will vouch. I view personal attacks as a measure of absolute last resort, and then only to get someone's attention. They serve no other useful function. Nobody gains a benefit from it.

Anyway ... I think we're reasonably well of the same viewpoint here. We understand one another and can continue and work it out after the game.

Now ... back to our regularly schedule massacre of the scums.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Drixx you're being a grade-A asshole here and it's definitely crossed from unintentional slight to willingly disrespectful and distracting to the game. Stand down on the attacks.

Winner, winner; chicken dinner!

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Ok prepare to be amazed:

{Farside/Alonzo, Fortain, Profii}
{Fish, Chick, Gamma, Hebichan, Pint, RCE, Tails, Varsoon, Wisdom, RR}
{Creature, Davesaz, Malakitty}
{BuJaber, Flavorleaf, Alchemist, Majiffy, Thor}
{Amzela, DrippingGoofball, DrewVa}

Actually Creature can be scum btw.

Qft atm, with notice to not be swayed if he suddenly starts posting and shit.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

FTR, everything is in Varsoons scum range

The man is insane.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I skipped the last 10 pages.

From skimming though, I'm thinking Creature is scum. I vaguely remember Tails (I think) saying Creature was in town range. Please clarify.

VOTE: Creature

Easiest read in the game. I mentioned it a while back and tried to give Creature time to redeem himself. Other people have mentioned it. Yet no one seemingly wants to vote there.

Why do you have him as a scum read. I don't necessarily disagree but is it just a gut read or what stood out to you?

Only people who haven't played a lot with Creature ask this question. As a general rule: is creature posting? If yes, town. If no, scum.

If Creature comes back and ups his game, I'll take back my vote. But this is textbook scum creature.

As I said, for the record, creature has been getting better at upping his game as scum, so you can't just disregard him because he did so. I would like you a recent game where he was scum and almost managed to win in 3p lylo because he came back and spent like 2 hours actively posting when people started suspecting him, but I'm way too lazy to actually do that.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Amzela, how good do you think you'd be at discerning Cerb as town or scum in forum based Mafia? Hopefully you don't talk about the game outside of the game, but do you get a sense that you can read him without actually seeing him? Is your only experience with Cerb in live versions of the game?

Also... you need an avatar.

pfft. Avatars are overrated!

Someone asked me what my read on amzela is, to which I say: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

^^ Honestly, I don't think she's faking being lost or the cute little newb that she is...and she hasn't done any of the obvious things that newbscum do, so maybe slightly more inclined to think she's town than scum, but there's very little behind that position.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Chickadee is probably flipping scum or 3P here but BuJ remains the ideal lynch today.

I feel that this statement warrants explanation.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ok so after digging through a few DGB games...

Town:

Mini 2020 Starts off similar to here but gets invested in sorting a few scum reads also. Intent becomes clearer as the game progresses.

Transformers Mafia Similar to here but we're again missing a "scum detected" post. Looks like DGB lurked themselves dead.

Mini 619 - House Mafia Constantly softs that they are a PR. Much more active and engaged, was the lylo mislynch.

Scum:

Steven Universe 2 Much more question orientated vs stating opinions. Phrases Town reads differently. Looks nothing like the other town games.

I think it's likely this game is more in line with DGB's town meta. I see they are often mislynched/left until lylo as town. Though we're missing the certain aggressive tunnels I saw in a couple of town games, I think the attitude of nonchalance is stil strongly town/3p indicative here.

VOTE: Thor

Very important to note that in SU2 DGB was a traitor and did not know their teammates; her play there was more like 3P survivor with a loss if certain other slots died than her play might be as pure groupscum, which is something I don't think I've seen her as.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also... you need an avatar.

and so does Cerberus

NEVER! Unless some other nice human being makes me a cool avatar like Chickadee did, then I'll use that avatar until I start a solo game, at which point I'll have to remove it because arguments about my lack of an avatar have been so common that they're now a viable interaction I can analyze for scumhunting. ^^

RR can probably recall this better than me but I am fairly certain I modded a game where scum made a late entry and did exactly this. We all laughed.

Sounds familiar, don't recall who it was(WAIT I DID IT WAS KLINGONCELT IN BLOODBORNE I'M PRETTY SURE); I was going ot say I was pretty sure they also had more votes on them when they did it, but since I remember the game now they actually didn't, and just kinda shat all over the thread.

On a side note, I really hope she's doing well, I don't think she's been on site for over a year now.

I have two comments to make about the way creature caught up.

1) If creature were to collect all his individual thoughts and reactions to posts into a single quote wall, it wouldn't be any more to read, so I don't understand why people are bitching about him doing it individually.

2) Creature, would it be so difficult for you to just open a quote in a new tab when you have a thought, type that thought, DON'T POST IT, then at the end copy and paste it all into a single post so people stop bitching? Yes, some will still bitch about quote walls, but fuck em. If you're not prepared to read don't play the fucking game, or at least don't BITCH ABOUT the need to read a text based game.

Yes people are busy, and your lives get in the way of stuff, so then play the game in a different way if spammy slots interfere too much. Pick people to read in iso and figure them out from there, instead of reading through all the spam.

Unrelated, I need Drixx to come back from his holiday stuff so he can tell me what to think.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

When there's too much to read, I usually just skip the posting and engage with someone.

I can read someone better with realtime interaction than through reading their posting.

It's just that this game I felt guilty I waited too much to actually start playing and so I brought a lot all at once.

I don't think I've ever seen you interact with someone in realtime.

Ever.

:-/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yes, some will still bitch about quote walls, but fuck em. If you're not prepared to read don't play the fucking game, or at least don't BITCH ABOUT the need to read a text based game.

Then stop bitching about creature's posts

???
Literally a post about how people shouldn't be bitching about Creatures posts.

...

Maybe you'd realize that if you hadn't taken a piece of the post out of context, which, btw, I'd recommend no one do to my posts again. Do not fucking chop my posts up for a quote without making it crystal fucking clear that you are cherrypicking from my words to support whatever statement you're about to make.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yes, some will still bitch about quote walls, but fuck em. If you're not prepared to read don't play the fucking game, or at least don't BITCH ABOUT the need to read a text based game.

Then stop bitching about creature's posts

???
Literally a post about how people shouldn't be bitching about Creatures posts.

...

Maybe you'd realize that if you hadn't taken a piece of the post out of context, which, btw, I'd recommend no one do to my posts again. Do not fucking chop my posts up for a quote without making it crystal fucking clear that you are cherrypicking from my words to support whatever statement you're about to make.

-Cerb

You were telling creature to quote wall and ignore the people who would bitch about said quote walls. You are the one who doesn't remember what you were posting.

Two independent statements were made in that post. In the first I asserted that the bitching about creature's number of posts was unwarranted, and in the second I suggested a way for him to avoid that particular bit of unwarranted criticism, while reiterating my belief that the proper response to those who bitch about reading in a text based game should be "fuck them". I can sort of see how someone incapable of reading subtext could conclude that I was bitching about Creature's posts (in spite of me explicitly stating that such complaints didn't make sense to me), but somehow everyone else who read that post correctly concluded that I was opposed to the Creature criticism.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Just to make this clear for those who may have difficulty with reading the intent of my posts:

I think Creature's way of catching up is perfectly fine, while also feeling that there are ways to accomplish the same goal without making lots of posts. *shrug*

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Cerb youre still misunderstanding
You said "Make quote walls and people should read them because text game"
Im saying "Then let him post like he is doing now, people should read them because text game"
More clear now?

Just to make this clear for those who may have difficulty with reading the intent of my posts:

I think Creature's way of catching up is perfectly fine

,while also feeling that there are ways to accomplish the same goal without making lots of posts. *shrug*

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

ok cerb you were right, i only read that part of that post and wrongly assumed you were also disliking his way.
See what long posts do? I tend to skim them for what catches my eye. Didnt happen with creature's posts.

Yeah, then don't fucking quote just the bit that supports your incorrect conclusions. Misrepresenting what someone else says is never acceptable.

-Cerb

Pedit: yeah, that's two of us whose posts you've fucked with to support your conclusions. Do not do it again.

[Reasonably Rational]

Hmm. Weird.

People who have played with Wisdom RECENTLY: is this conciliatory attitude in his current scum range? Last time I played with scum !Wisdom it almost certainly wasn't. I would expect both dave and I to be treated with the same attitude, yet he's being nicer to me, in spite of me using more inflammatory language.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Drixx you're being a grade-A asshole here and it's definitely crossed from unintentional slight to willingly disrespectful and distracting to the game. Stand down on the attacks.

look at jiffy buddying Nancy
Guess hes actually scum

and profii is town

VOTE: majiffy

Here's what I see. Buddying is the reason for this vote? Or is there more?

Pedit: I'm soapboxing that reasons are one of the better weapons that town have to win. If we force everyone to give reasons for everything, then scum can't hide in the herd of people who are naked voting all the time.

QF FUCKING T

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

if i'm the leading wagon promise you wont murderdeath me in my sleep so i can redeem my slot?

Your slot doesn't need redemption, though there is slightly more reasoning behind the push on you than most D1 pushes.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Amzela: Mafia me and RL me are very different in how we react to things. In mafia the entire point of the game is detecting deception, or evading said detection; that means that actions which normally wouldn't warrant a reaction from me(such as my words being used in a fashion that COULD be used to misrepresent me, or any inconsistency in someone's approach to things) require an immediate and strong reaction, so such things don't continue to happen if being done by town, and are brought to everyone's attention so they aren't mislead by such posts.

Drixx told me he'd dump some thoughts to me this morning, so I'm just waiting to hear his opinion on things before we make a move on anything. Stay tuned!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR why are you still voting Profii?

For the same reasons we were originally voting him?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Clemency’s posting has only kind of supported my scumread on Chickadee imo.

In the meantime, RR you worry me.

-DV

That's okay. It's when people who've played with us before aren't worried about us that we start to get concerned.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR, can you talk shop with me sometime this game
I feel directionless and I want my Bujab lynch but it's not winning.

Yeah man, what's up? Honestly, I'm just reading along, waiting to hear my othe rheads thoughts, because I'm also pretty directionless. I haven't seen any reason to feel differently about profii or hebichan, and I don't particularly agree with the original chickadee push stuff, but I also lack the motivation at the moment to really push hebi or profii given the lack of interest in those lynches. It's like starting from nothing, and there's not enough reason to actually suspect them over others to justify a hard push.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yeah that's basically what I feel like but it actually feels like if I could get into things then I could give the Bujaber wagon the push it needs cus it feels like it's at tipping point right now.
You lit a fire under my ass in the past, I dunno.
I tend to get overwhelmed in these really really large games like this and there's just too much info/content/interactions to focus on them all and I tend to just shut it out.

Do you think Profii's intentionally kinda sitting at where they're at in order to not compromise being a low-pushed wagon? Like how has profii's play from your read formation until now influenced your read?
'cus on my end Bujaber's play has just kinda adhered to the problems I've had with it all along. :/

Honestly, until this moment I completely forgot about the fact that profii was the target of your fake vig reaction test, but his entire reaction *wasn't* towntelling to me at all. Like, idk, maybe it's too low EV a play to actually make sense, but that post declaring that you must be scum for shooting him for in spite of his bad cop crumbs(they were bad, btw, because they were too obvious to actually take seriously) just rubbed me really wrong. I have no idea what scum!profii would have been trying to accomplish with that though, but idk, just doesn't feel right. As far as evolution of the read is concerned...more attention needs to be paid by me? His slot hasn't said anything that I actually remember since then, so there hasn't been a change.

It also bugs me that Clemency came in to decry their wagon and then kinda ghosted but I guess it hasn't been that long?
Or are they posting a bunch and I just didn't realize?

I don't think it's been that long at all, the game is just moving fast generally speaking I think? They're not posting all that much though...like more than Chickadee, but nothing super notable. Their content has been basically empty though. Pretty bad scum defense attempt if they are scum, and my standard BoP for strangers makes me feel that's more likely to come from town just not feeling like dealing with the shit their predecessor left for them.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm not wild about it and not confident that it'll flip scum.
If it happens to be the lynch, I'm alright with it as I don't think Clem's a slot I'd argue is town or even worth keeping alive and plenty of people have had interactions there so it's not the worst green flip ever,

it just doesn't excite me and I tend to avoid wagons/flips that don't excite me.

P-EDIT:
@RR: I thought profii looked REALLY BAD then, too, but then profii's responses after made me pretty sure profii was town.
Would you believe me if I told you that I forgot that I even faked the vig there?

Dude yeah that's it. It's more the fact that regardless of how the slot flips, I'll shrug. If it's town I'll be annoyed, but I'm not invested in it one way or the other enough that I'll have to reevaluate the game or be angry at everyone. If it's scum, yay, but i don't even really see the flip giving loads of associatives to solve the game with or anything. So yeah, not exciting; even less so when they're just...not fighting back, and not playing the game.

Fair. I just don't really see the towntelling there that's so evident to a few others. Anything more concrete than feelings about how those reactions made them town?

@everyone: Yes, my voice is super different in these posts with Varsoon, take that to mean what you will. I know what it means! ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Not comfortable with Hebi just sheeping people.
Hebi, whyyy

I have similar thoughts, but she’s actively bringing up that she’s just sheeping in a kill heavy game, so that’s kind of lean townie to me

I’ve been townreading her, ever since she referenced that Wisdom game. That read townie to me.

You keep saying that, but it's an incredible weak indicator either way; definitely not enough to base a read on.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@DrewVa: Why are you acting like we townread you?
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

All I'm seeing is that whenever anyone thinks you're scum, you either call them scum or a horrible person. You continue to attack them until they back off.
And when I just pointed that out, you then try to turn the subject around again by telling me I must have a low opinion of those you attacked. You seriously just blamed the victims!
I said, "Here's this pattern of behavior from you." Your response is "Well, then you must think very little of them then." Like, how does B come from C?

You obviously must, because if what you’re suggesting is to be believed , these experienced players, are just going to be this easily manipulated. Do you honestly believe this?, because I really don’t believe you do. And it’s posts like this one, is why I think you’re scum here. Wisdom has never played with scum!me but RR has - twice. I’ve only had 3 scumgames on this site - 5 in total but I’ve somehow managed to pull the wool over players’ eyes with a great deal more experience than me? I almost think you might be trolling me with this now.

This statement that its ridiculous thst you've managed to pull the wool over experienced players eyes implies that you're being townread by us, and are using that fact as a reason why others should be townreading you, when in fact we aren't townreading you. We resolved the earlier situation, but that just means we stopped weighting that interaction one way or the other. I've seen nothing outside of your scum range in your play today, and so have no reason to townread you.

@Tail: won't be happening except to ensure we don't no lynch. Far more informative to me to keep that extra vote open on all the wagons to see how people move around, and unlike Overkill 1 we've basically failed at voting like normal people instead of ourselves, so fuck it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You are correct Thor, I chose to not invest the time required to make even a semblance of an attempt at solving the game after the first 96 hours of this day phase or so. You're welcome to speculate about what that means in terms of my alignment.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Think the selfhammer attempt is a scum claim. Can someone vote Clemency in case Hebis misspelling vote doesn't count so we can actually move on here please. Also DV gets no credit for this scum lynch, dudes still a noob.

No, we should wait until the vote count.

It’s very important to let Toog hammer

. Trust me on this, A50 will count Hebi’s vote but sure on the extremely unlikely chance that I’m wrong about this.

Elaborate?

I need a convincing answer in the next 9 minutes or I'll be hammering.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Think the selfhammer attempt is a scum claim. Can someone vote Clemency in case Hebis misspelling vote doesn't count so we can actually move on here please. Also DV gets no credit for this scum lynch, dudes still a noob.

No, we should wait until the vote count.

It’s very important to let Toog hammer

. Trust me on this, A50 will count Hebi’s vote but sure on the extremely unlikely chance that I’m wrong about this.

Elaborate?

I need a convincing answer in the next 9 minutes or I'll be hammering.

-Cerb

Don’t you think it important to verify Toogeloo’s role?

No. It's not a test of anything. The only test of his claim is him actually voting someone prior to hammer, which he won't do.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Toog hammering doesn't matter, he can be any role any alignment and hammer.

Okay, maybe I’m confused then, because in Overkill 1, people wanted to confirm Flicker’s role by doing that iirc?

1) Confirming flickers role was stupid there, because all you could do was confirm the slot had that modifier, but not it's alignment or if it had any additional abilities.
2) Flickers role and toog's role's are different. That part of Flickers role WAS confirmable, because they were UNABLE to hammer(which, btw RCEnigma, is what priest is); Toog is ONLY able to hammer, and WILL BE MODKILLED IF THEY VOTE PRIOR TO HAMMER. That means we can't test the thing they are unable to do, which is what we were trying to do with Flicker in Overkill 1.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

How do you verify Toog without him getting modkilled

He doesn’t, so long as he’s the hammer, if I’m understanding his role correctly.

I suppose it’s fine for now but whenever we can confirm a slot, it’s always a good thing, no?

How does that confirm him though? That just means he can cast the hammer vote, not that he can’t cast any other votes.

Well, I just thought hammering would confirm him. \_0_/

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Seriously. Tell me what you thought Toog's role was, and what line of reasoning led you to that conclusion.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

How do you verify Toog without him getting modkilled

He doesn’t, so long as he’s the hammer, if I’m understanding his role correctly.

I suppose it’s fine for now but whenever we can confirm a slot, it’s always a good thing, no?

How does that confirm him though? That just means he can cast the hammer vote, not that he can’t cast any other votes.

Well, I just thought hammering would confirm him. \_0_/

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Seriously. Tell me what you thought Toog's role was, and what line of reasoning led you to that conclusion.

-Cerb

He’s an actor, right? So, hammering doesn’t confirm like with priest?

You're asking me questions. I'm not here to explain this to you. I'm here to figure out why/how you believed what you believed.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

How do you verify Toog without him getting modkilled

He doesn’t, so long as he’s the hammer, if I’m understanding his role correctly.

I suppose it’s fine for now but whenever we can confirm a slot, it’s always a good thing, no?

How does that confirm him though? That just means he can cast the hammer vote, not that he can’t cast any other votes.

Well, I just thought hammering would confirm him. \_0_/

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Seriously. Tell me what you thought Toog's role was, and what line of reasoning led you to that conclusion.

-Cerb

He’s an actor, right? So, hammering doesn’t confirm like with priest?

You're asking me questions. I'm not here to explain this to you. I'm here to figure out why/how you believed what you believed.

-Cerb

I obviously need those questions answered first.

If you didn't know the answer to those questions, how did you have such certainty that it was VERY IMPORTANT that the hammer be saved for Toog?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

GODDAMNIT A50 YOU PROMISED US FUCKING BLOOD WTF.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Anyways.

VOTE: Toogeloo

Chick, when you’re able, what is your read on Toog and why?

I'm town reading Toog. I think the way they initially claimed was genuine. I think it came from a place of wanting to be upfront about they wouldn't be voting. There hasn't been a lot of redeeming posts since then, but I understand the frustration.

I also don't hold it against anyone to find their "oh it exists" post scummy though.

Nuff said, and please don't just think we're auto-assigning scum to her town reads.

Drixx will probably regale you all with the reasoning used for this particular associative read whenever he shows up.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I feel like I was sold a canvas bag and got a nylon one instead with this game.

To be perfectly fair though,really nice canvas bags are like...70 bucks, so you were paying way too much anyways if the bag was the thing you cared about the most anyways.

This is in no way an endorsement of Bethesdas' fuckup, just saying that the people who wasted that money were doing a piss poor cost-benefit analysis even if they had received the promised bag.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Why would a scum self hammer to prevent his partner from hammering. That makes no sense

Because it makes you ask that question. There is now the appearance that scum was concerned about Toog's role claim. Others already inferred it might be a hammer powered role of some kind instead of specifically (or only) what Toog claimed.

Then there's Chick's post that Cerb quoted which is all kinds of bad. It's one of two things:

1.) An intentional red herring from Chickadee

OR

2.) Failed WiFoM by Chickadee

Raw probabilities vastly favor #2.

Since we've already gotten one person literally chainsawing Toog and attacking the idea that Chick accidentally linked to a partner (despite my intentional withholding of our reasoning for now) ... I think I'll see how much more hole gets dug.

Suffice it to say that I'm pretty sure Toog is scum here. The reasoning is sound. Nancy picked up on it and just needs to be more confident.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

If you guys are set in your hearts on lynching me, with a d1 scum lynch and not night deaths, I'm not gonna stop you.

Till then. VOTE: Nero

The thing about toog is

he could be an actual treestump and lying about the hammering thing.

Walk me through the assumptions that lead to this conclusion please?

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Having played with Toog b4 I think this lurky do nothing attitude more resembles his town play than his scum play. Of course, there is the possibility that could ACT like this as scum so *shrug* .

You might have just gotten a town read out of me Nero! Considering how little effort I've put into the game, using meta to define my playstyle couldn't have possibly been there to win my affections, and it might actually be genuine concern for my well being .

---

Davesaz is town if you think I'm town.

Masonry, or did you *hint-hint-wink-wink* them last night .

---

Okay, I'm actually having doubts about the Global Doctor part

I'm not about to abate your paranoia. You do what you think is best.

---

2. Is testable if toog votes right now.

No... no it's not. I will be

MODKILLED

if I vote and it's not the hammer. Nice try though.

---
No promises, but I'll 'try' to be a bit more helpful, but here's hoping that last night's death reprieve was more beneficial in regards to results people were hoping for (other than callous murderers).

So the real question is if you're town, and guaranteed to be the mislynch for today, why would you not make that vote so as to save your faction from spending a lynch on your slot?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Kinda wondering what's actually going to go down tbh.

Indeed.

Like, I just wanted the idea to be in his head so he'd go ask about it, and then if town and we got to like L-1 he could vote, get himself killed, and we'd have all the interactions to look over after getting his flip, and still have a lynch to use today.

This sequence is just ???? to me.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

(This is the silence of drixx and I furiously discussing where the fuck we went wrong)

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I need to be lynched anyway.

Any reason why you can't be useful before that happens?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: Reasonably Rational
I feel Reasonably tricked.

I really wish we were scum, because I'd be so fucking proud of getting a town slot to kill themselves with a single, one sentence post.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: Reasonably Rational
I feel Reasonably tricked.

I really wish we were scum, because I'd be so fucking proud of getting a town slot to kill themselves with a single, one sentence post.

-Cerb

I don't think you're scum.
I think you're third party.
Your play here has been reminding me really hard of how you played in SaGa Frontier.

You mean poorly, until a masterful D3 and on kept us just ahead of the noose?

I guess I can see that. My play, at least, has been shit so far.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Having played with Toog b4 I think this lurky do nothing attitude more resembles his town play than his scum play. Of course, there is the possibility that could ACT like this as scum so *shrug* .

You might have just gotten a town read out of me Nero! Considering how little effort I've put into the game, using meta to define my playstyle couldn't have possibly been there to win my affections, and it might actually be genuine concern for my well being .

---

Davesaz is town if you think I'm town.

Masonry, or did you *hint-hint-wink-wink* them last night .

---

Okay, I'm actually having doubts about the Global Doctor part

I'm not about to abate your paranoia. You do what you think is best.

---

2. Is testable if toog votes right now.

No... no it's not. I will be

MODKILLED

if I vote and it's not the hammer. Nice try though.

---
No promises, but I'll 'try' to be a bit more helpful, but here's hoping that last night's death reprieve was more beneficial in regards to results people were hoping for (other than callous murderers).

So the real question is if you're town, and guaranteed to be the mislynch for today, why would you not make that vote so as to save your faction from spending a lynch on your slot?

-Cerb

Kinda wondering what's actually going to go down tbh.

Indeed.

Like, I just wanted the idea to be in his head so he'd go ask about it, and then if town and we got to like L-1 he could vote, get himself killed, and we'd have all the interactions to look over after getting his flip, and still have a lynch to use today.

This sequence is just ???? to me.

-Cerb

But then why didn’t you just back me on him hammering today? The previous posts mentions nothing about him hammering, just voting.

You're misunderstanding.

I didn't care about him hammering/want him to hammer.

I wanted him to be aware that his optimal line of play with his claimed role as town, in the event that he found himself as the most likely lynch for the day(which was meant to be interpreted as "when you're at L-2/L-1 and nobody is listening to you" not "when you're at 4 votes"), was to vote and give town a second lynch for the day.

I still do not care about actions that don't confirm anything, as hammering wouldn't have done for Toog.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

(This is the silence of drixx and I furiously discussing where the fuck we went wrong)

-Cerb

Is this a lolcat type post?

This reads to me, like you’ve given up?

It was literally what was happening at that moment.

I went to slack, told Drixx we had been wrong about Toog, and asked him where he thought we should look instead/what we needed to reevaluate, and a conversation was happening.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The thing that I find baffling is that town!Cerb would NEVER push for Toog to self-vote/self-explode before getting to at least L-2, because Town!Cerb would be all about those wagon interactions.
Driving Toog to do that ASAP strikes me as pressuring Toog to make a poor decision for town while also trying to keep any other (possibly poor) associatives from hitting the table.

P-EDIT: See, that's the scramble, Cerb's changing the story.

Not at all. You're right that I definitely didn't make it clear that he should just vote for himself later, given that I was responding to a post where he was responding to someone asking him to vote immediately, but the intent was for him to be aware of the optimal line without explicitly stating that this wagon could be very valuable if you're town, and this is how you should use it...while also giving scum!Toog no real argument to make against that position.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

*shrug* Either you think town!me did what town!me does and found the best way to use a claimed role and was trying to share it while preserving the value of the role, or nottown!me found the best way to use a claimed role and a way to push someone to kill themselves while still having the ability to defend myself from the inevitable pushback.

I don't think either is more likely than the other in a void, though if we really want to continue down this line I could probably come up with reason why nottown!me wouldn't have approached that situation the way I did.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Flavor stop making empty posts
who is scum

Wisdom, would you be so kind as to grace us with at least 3 words about why those people you suspect of being scum are scum? 3 words each, that is? I know you aren't a reason giving person, but it helps me figure out if I've been missing shit or not.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

because i havent seen reason to townread them

Are you only looking for town right now then, and that's just a PoE list essentially?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Varsoon stahp it. You're giving me vibes of that one game where you parlayed a fake cop guilty into an absurd amount of crap ... while I literally told the game exactly who was scum and what you (scum) were doing and got ignored.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

If you find my previous post unsatisfying in the least, please imagine how unsatisfying it is for me to read you with a boner for a single game Cerb played in hydra with ... !me

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Four Words:

Hindsight Bias

Less Wrong (dot com)

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

DrewVa:How can you read my posts at the start of the day and conclude I was townreading Toog?

Majiffy tmi point by Tails is valid. Nero hasn't done a whole lot to make me think differently.

Bujaber wagon was senseless, but being the counter to scum is meaningless in multiball. We can say there's a good chance he's not on the same team as clem, bu that's it, and even that's weak given that in multiball there would be diffusion of scum force pushing for/against certain wagon, so how hard it was to get the hammer on a scum slot means less.

Whoever mentioned the chickadee post to me:Ignored because it didn't have any content and was....well, basically a post I'd expect her to make regardless of alignment given our past interactions out of game.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

How do you verify Toog without him getting modkilled

He doesn’t, so long as he’s the hammer, if I’m understanding his role correctly.

I suppose it’s fine for now but whenever we can confirm a slot, it’s always a good thing, no?

How does that confirm him though? That just means he can cast the hammer vote, not that he can’t cast any other votes.

Well, I just thought hammering would confirm him. \_0_/

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Seriously. Tell me what you thought Toog's role was, and what line of reasoning led you to that conclusion.

-Cerb

He’s an actor, right? So, hammering doesn’t confirm like with priest?

You're asking me questions. I'm not here to explain this to you. I'm here to figure out why/how you believed what you believed.

-Cerb

I obviously need those questions answered first.

If you didn't know the answer to those questions,

how did you have such certainty that it was VERY IMPORTANT that the hammer be saved for Toog?

-Cerb

Why would a scum self hammer to prevent his partner from hammering. That makes no sense

Because it makes you ask that question. There is now the appearance that scum was concerned about Toog's role claim. Others already inferred it might be a hammer powered role of some kind instead of specifically (or only) what Toog claimed.

Then there's Chick's post that Cerb quoted which is all kinds of bad. It's one of two things:

1.) An intentional red herring from Chickadee

OR

2.) Failed WiFoM by Chickadee

Raw probabilities vastly favor #2.

Since we've already gotten one person literally chainsawing Toog and attacking the idea that Chick accidentally linked to a partner (despite my intentional withholding of our reasoning for now) ... I think I'll see how much more hole gets dug.

Suffice it to say that I'm pretty sure Toog is scum here. The reasoning is sound.

Nancy picked up on it and just needs to be more confident.

~D

Re: the bolded. So,which is it? Am I over or underconfident with my reads?

Talking about two separate things(and from two different heads, but I hate that excuse)

In the first post I was checking for TMI/tracking your line of reasoning for the conclusion you had arrived at, since it didn't make sense for you to conclude that it was VERY IMPORTANT for Toog to hammer with the information we had.

In the second we've decided Toog is probscum, and Drixx is trying to push you to vote for them.

This is all completely separate from the interaction where I asked Toog about why they wouldn't vote and save town a mislynch if they were actually town. And no, I disagree that making sure that Toog was aware that doing so was a possibility, and almost certainly the optimal line of play to take, looks bad to anyone capable of evaluating the interaction objectively.

The part of it that looks bad is my omission of an explicit statement that he should take such action only when near lynch, though I did state that the situation described was one where he was sure to be lynched, which IMPLIES near lynch. That omission does not, however, make the play any less optimal given his role.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Cerb (I had to make a separate post because they’re were too many quotes in it).


Okay I realize that this was by 2 different heads and you were referencing different things. That said however, I think my question is still valid. In what world does it make a lick of sense for me to be too certain in scenario A but be too underconfident in situation B?

My point obviously being, that I perceive a clear difference on your slot’s temperament read on me and I have trouble seeing both as genuine. I’m leaning the latter read, is how your slot honestly views my temperament. Of course, the different heads saying these things might also account for it but I have trouble believing you really see me as a confident player, because you are well aware of my frustrating tendency to derp and usually don’t have strong scumreads in early game. You might not be aware of the latter though, because you have only played with me as pretty much clueless town and scum before. Undertale is town!me, when I’m not really sure wtf is happening in the game, because I didn’t read the first 100 pages. I typically am far more confident when I actually do have my head in a game. That is NAI for me btw. I have been frozen as both town and scum.

It didn't make any sense for you to be certain in the first scenario, which was the problem that I was addressing in my question to you.

This head sees you as a competent player who doesn't always think things through yes, and I think Drixx shares that opinion.

You can be confident in something without sufficient information in one scenario and not confident enough in another. To be fair though, you really need to be asking Drixx about situation B, because that particular piece of text where he mentioned you wasn't something he talked to me about, so I'm not really sure what he was trying to say. :-/

So looking at what Cerb is saying about trying to coach Toog into using his role wisely - I think it looks legit.

I think RR saying that was the objective of what he was doing and it was sincere so that's a consideration for me...

Now, I've not played much (if any? IDK) multiball on here before so like the point that !otherscum! team will likely been on Clemency wagon was like an adjustment in my thinking (I'm slow ok)

But that makes me reconsider the RR and Toog episode? I guess so because now we know Toog is town, that means !scum and !otherscum would have flocked to the wagon - I think this means that if RR was scum he'd have to be like "Guys wait and see who rushes this wagon to find the other team" - I think that would be tough to do without dropping your own team in it... so not really a scum lean on RR.

But

we have the serial killer potential aspect in this game too I think. The bit that you could probably argue is that RR was using Toog to serve his own purpose - obviously a SK can scum hunt like the rest of us and wants to remove all of us so helping a town is no skin off their nose - now the bit I think I have to consider is RR coached Toog into getting associatives going (this benefits all) but ALSO voted for Toog.

now this can be explained away as "yeah I wanted to coach him and demonstrate/accelerate the lesson" but it can also be explained as "I want to remove players by applying pressure/mind games"

It comes down to how devious you consider cerb to be I think - SK lean for me.

I have never played with either scum!RR or scum!Cerb myself but Nico was very pissed at RR for apparently fooling her in a game they won as scum. Take that for what it’s worth.

Correction: Nico played with Scum!RR in SU2(I think? Different alt? If so, I didn't even realize they were the same person), where we lost as scum in LYLO, but Nico was part of a 3p faction that was town aligned who we made lose with us, so only town won.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Varsoon is drawing parallels between my play here and my play as a malevolent 3p/sk varient in what I view as the most surprising 3p win on this site to justify pushing me over other individuals.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Some thoughts:

1.) I was the one who concluded that Toog was probably scum with Chick due to the post Cerb quoted where Chick gave a really fence sitty wishy washy "read" on Toog, which also was contradicted by other close posts. That kind of spew is (the vast majority of times) generally indicative of scum trying to WiFoM and screwing up and connecting themselves to a partner. If that post was made intentionally, then Chick was on top of it at least for that. It was the first thing I talked to Cerb about after the flip.

2.) Exploiting mechanics is kind of one of our signatures. Cerb behaving exactly as Cerb behaves shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. His reasoning for what he said and what he

didn't

say is spot on.

3.) Varsoon is really weirding me out. So far as I know, the role that won SaGa (incorrectly, since Albert B. Rampage had a killing ability) is unique. It didn't come from somewhere else and hasn't been replicated since. So ... what rationale is there to suppose we have a similar role?


@Nancy - You saw the same thing I did in regards to how Clemency acted in relation to Toog's claim. From the flip we know that Toog was more than just a hammer only role (which had to be modkilled if voted other than hammer or else the VC would "confirm" some part of the claim). Scum frequently fear that the unknown have a "worst case" ability. See Varsoon and KC in the game I referenced earlier. They were convinced I was a bomb. Without any reasoning. Similarly, it appeared that either scum wanted us to believe they were afraid of Toog (what I assumed was the case) or else really were (seems the case with updated info). That's what I said you needed to be more confidant about. You were on to that.

@Toog - Really well played. Would have been better to do that at L-2 or something but you got super high EV out of that role either way. Sorry I was wrong.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

@Amzela: come play mafia with me. Tell me your thoughts on anyone who you haven't already commented on. Reasons for reads are appreciated as well. Thanks! <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay okay.

I'm properly paying attention right now.

I would appreciate succinctly phrased justifications for Gamma and Nero, preferably from the progenitors of the wagons.

Thanks.

-Cerb

pedit: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=66230 I was cool cucumbers, a hydra with myself and wgeurts.

pedit x2: WHO I DIDN'T REALIZE WAS YUME UNTIL RECENTLY, SOMEHOW.

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay okay.

I'm properly paying attention right now.

I would appreciate succinctly phrased justifications for Gamma and Nero, preferably from the progenitors of the wagons.

Thanks.

-Cerb

pedit: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=66230 I was cool cucumbers, a hydra with myself and wgeurts.

pedit x2: WHO I DIDN'T REALIZE WAS YUME UNTIL RECENTLY, SOMEHOW.

Okay thanks. I’m legit surprised at this because of what happened in BoR, which you weren’t even in.

Surprised at what exactly? What happened in BoR(which is an acronym for what?)

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Right. Thanks Tails.

In terms of scumminess from what's presented here, Majiffy>Gamma.

(because there's a concrete action/lack thereof that objectively doesn't match up with their claimed reads)

will go read slack and remind myself if Drixx has said anything about Majiffy/NC, and will return!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I've changed my mind and I'm going to talk about my/our read on RR now.

Our townread on Nero is largely Regfan-lead, so he'd be much better off explaining that than me. We also both have concerns about Gamma despite an earlier townread on him.

However, it's Reasonably Rational that has my toes tingling.

It's Reasonably Rational that makes my palms all sweaty.

It's Reasonably Rational that inspires within me an insatiable lust for everyone's blood.

And here's why...

--

Part 1: Their Approach to Amzela

Now for this section, 207 is important. Cerb does talk about how he is amazing at reading Amz which... okay sure we get it. But the key thing in this post is that he reveals his belief that Amz actually has reasonable experience in mafia and is probably quite competent. Keep this in mind for later.

Next in this story, we get to 879 and 884, which I can only honestly describe as a bit of a freak-out. Cerb attempts to defend himself in an elaborate way that's honestly a bit belittling and feels like an effort to just throw a whole lot of smoke at the idea of lynching RR until that idea goes away.

"pedit: AMZELA TRY TO LYNCH US IF YOU THINK WE'RE SCUM. That's just how the game should be played. I mean, you'll fail(I would expect us to top out at 8 votes at this stage in the day, 4 from people who have already expressed some inclination to be opposed to us, and 4 from people who don't care/are scum), but it could be a good exercise. <3"

^What even is with this seriously?

Well I know what I think. I think it's scum bravado.

1155 again just looks like an attempt to undermine the validity of Amz's read on them rather than actually talk things through with Amz in a sensible way. And is very inconsistent with 207! There's also no need to undermine Amzela's read on them as town. However, if RR is scum, having Amz scumread them is actually a concern. People might think "Amzela is scumreading the person she's dating! That seems legit!" RR has to hope that he can discredit Amz enough that people don't listen to her scumread on them.

I also think 2972 comes across as very showy. I'm pretty sure town-Cerb here just lets Amz take her V/LA and asks her for thoughts when she's returned from V/LA. This post seems much more likely designed to make it really look like Cerb REALLY CARES about sorting the Amz slot because of course he would want to sort that slot right? But the post itself is pointless and honestly kind of annoying given that Amz has just said she's on V/LA until the 7th.

--

Part 2: Their Approach to Chickadee/Clemency

If I had to guess, I'd say that RR was scum with Chickadee/Clemency, but I wouldn't say that with much confidence. I am more confident in the fact that they are scum of some kind, whether it be with Chickadee/Clem or otherwise.

I think their approach to the Chick/Clem situation was pretty awkward. It could have been awkward because they were scum with Chick/Clem. It could have been awkward because they're just scum. Who knows? But it was pretty awkward.

Most concerning are posts like 1950 where he states he is waiting to hear Drixx's thoughts because he feels directionless, which honestly seems like an excuse to not engage with the Chick/Clem wagon in any kind of meaningful way. Particularly given that Cerb is not very hesitant to make thoughts/reads known during other periods of the game.

There is also 1954 where he gives a very half-hearted reason for not being excited about the Clem wagon.

"Pretty bad scum defense attempt if they are scum, and my standard BoP for strangers makes me feel that's more likely to come from town just not feeling like dealing with the shit their predecessor left for them."

... I am unconvinced.

Instead of doing anything useful or trying to actually work things out, the slot instead gets into an unproductive argument with DrewVa about why it was important for Toog to hammer. Sure, I agree, what DrewVa was saying didn't make complete sense. But DrewVa is someone that's a really easy pressure target for scum, because while DrewVa is veryveryvery likely town, if you argue with them in the right kind of way they will probably end up looking bad from it and you will look like you're doing ~stuff~. Win-win! My issue is that they didn't show nearly as much interest in actually working out whether the likely lynch was going to be on scum or not. Probably because they either didn't really care either way, or because they already knew.

--

Part 3: The Toogeloo Boogaloo

2581 conveniently completely misses the possibility that Chickadee wasn't actually trying to link herself to Toogeloo in the previously quoted post, which was always going to be the most likely possibility.

2614 is not good. I would be less concerned if RR just told Toogeloo to get himself modkilled. Instead we get this reasonable- and rational- sounding post that is pretty pointless because players are naturally not going to want to get themselves modkilled?

But the above things in isolation are not overly concerning. What is worse is the reaction afterwards.

2656 is a really over-detailed explanation and reeks of over-compensating for the fact that they are obviously going to look bad after what happened.

It also should be noted that no-where in toog's role PM did it actually state that the day would continue after he was modkilled, nor did we have any reason to believe that.

2660 again just seems like a show, and again over-compensation. 2614 implies they weren't sure what toog's alignment was. 2660 gives the impression that they had this massive scumread on toog and just absolutely can't believe that he was town. Which was it?

--

Please can we lynch them? It would be even more fun than lynching Chickadee/Clemency was. I promise!

-DV

ILU DV for giving me the opportunity to do the thing I love the most so early in the game! Working now, but just letting you know I did see this, and I will be going through every point you made to tell you why you're wrong, even though honestly, given that your words weren't followed by votes on me within the next two pages, the BEST thing to do to avoid being lynched would be to avoid legitimizing your case by responding to it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Sorry for saying 'he' instead of 'she', just noticed your pronouns.
Anyway
You'll probably get shot at then.
VOTE: REAsonabLy RATional

I love you Varsoon. Between the "third paRRty" vote, and the REAL RAT here...just. Man. <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Wait.

Are people...people admitting that we were right??????

RNGESUS AND THE POWER OF THE ANALYSIS OF THEIR REACTION IS SOMETHING THAT IS NO LONGER BEING DENIED!!!

VOTE: Hebichan

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Just 'cus you're right doesn't vindicate you.

Agreed, especially given that you think I'm 3p(that means, boys and girls, that literally *nothing* will actually vindicate me in Varsoon's eyes) I'm just going to find it hilarious if my literal pure random selection does actually flip scum. This is exciting for me!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

We signed up for murder. It was promised.

I mean we could just like randomly quicklynch someone, get all that murder happening asap?

One sec, lemme go to a random number generator and see who we're gonna lynch today.

Came up with 21(naturally I removed myself, and I'm in the list prior to that point, so that's actually 22), so RIP hebichan.

I <3 you, you're adorable, but RNGesus, who is superior in scumhunting skill to this playerlist, has determined you should die.

VOTE: hebichan

-Cerb

Can I not be the day one lynch again? Please. I want to play a game one of these months.

VOTE: RCE

hebichan, who was Bandit, and Town Desperado, was killed in Night 2.
15. hebichan, Human Wiretapper, Lynched Day Four.
hebichan, an Aspiring Hero, was lynched Day 5

???

VOTE: hebichan harder for unwarranted AtE in response to a meaningless push, which she used a lie to support.

-Cerb

That's all I've got Alchemist21. *shrug* There's probably more if I like...look.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So you're pushing me based on barely post RVS stuff from hundreds of pages ago? Huh.

Thought more people would be voting me based off my bad toog push there.


VOTE: RR


Honestly, Nah fuck your slot.

A hundred pages ago! And nothing you've done since then is actually interesting, so your bad reaction is *still* bad. *shrug*

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

We signed up for murder. It was promised.

I mean we could just like randomly quicklynch someone, get all that murder happening asap?

One sec, lemme go to a random number generator and see who we're gonna lynch today.

Came up with 21(naturally I removed myself, and I'm in the list prior to that point, so that's actually 22), so RIP hebichan.

I <3 you, you're adorable, but RNGesus, who is superior in scumhunting skill to this playerlist, has determined you should die.

VOTE: hebichan

-Cerb

Can I not be the day one lynch again? Please. I want to play a game one of these months.

VOTE: RCE

hebichan, who was Bandit, and Town Desperado, was killed in Night 2.
15. hebichan, Human Wiretapper, Lynched Day Four.
hebichan, an Aspiring Hero, was lynched Day 5

???

VOTE: hebichan harder for unwarranted AtE in response to a meaningless push, which she used a lie to support.

-Cerb

That's all I've got Alchemist21. *shrug* There's probably more if I like...look.

-Cerb

That’s not really convincing and with the way these votes have happened it kinda feels like either Nero or your slot are scum and Hebi’s the counterwagon. Either that or too many people think BEF is softing a guilty.

Naw, I don't make counterwagons to my own wagons. Counterwagons are a crutch for those who can't get out of a sticky situation without the aid of teammates. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

What happened to my beautiful gammawagon?

Honestly, I have no idea. I was shocked to see that Hebi suddenly had 5 votes on her.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I mean, if you had read his posts...it would be clear that he's realized that town!hebichan always irritates him, which, if true, is a reasonable reason to view a non-irritating hebichan as not!town.

I don't actually know if his reasoning actually makes sense or is true, but it's pretty clear that's where he's coming from. TBF, it might be just as bad as his reasons for scumreading our slot, but I'll take his support on a lynch I've never stopped wanting. <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Bake me some cinnamon rolls, I'm easy.
On the real, though, I'm voting you because you're scum.
It's that easy.

Just push RR after I flip because the slot is seriously bad.

Aight.

I mean, you were already pushing me, so this is a pretty empty promise.

Also...hebichan.

I'm pretty sure you've played with both Drixx and myself as scum(and you, Varsoon, have seen us as scum more intimately than basically anyone else)

Have we *ever* looked bad as scum?

I'll wait.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

1. My memory sucks, I don't remember.

2. You bringing up your scum meta makes me trust it less.

(posts like that are never meant for the people I'm responding to...they're meant for the other people in the game who I know are at least somewhat familiar with us)



That aside though, you should never trust the meta of a competent player. My very self-awareness about meta things is the reason why 1) Varsoon is being silly trying to draw a meta connection between my play here and my play...like...over a year ago...with a different hydra partner, and 2) ...Actually, I don't think I have a 2. Just a general warning about meta being crap alone, but having some value as an indicator of where to pay attention; acting out of character being more significant than acting IN CHARACTER with a certain alignment.

Oh right.

If anybody has any NU, they should claim it now. They should have claimed it yesterday, but I'll give you a pass because I was dumb and didn't crawl up everyone's ass about it.

I'm looking at you DGB, but anyone else should do so as well!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Third-party Cerb would bring that point up.
Inb4 Cerb accuses me again of saying Third Party Cerb would WIFOM anything.

Actually, AnyAlignmentCerb brings all these points up, but the way I bring them up might be a bit different.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh nvm, Clemency flipped goon

So we got the other scumteam's goon

Do you see what I see?

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh nvm, Clemency flipped goon

So we got the other scumteam's goon

Do you see what I see?

~D

Yeah yeah lemme go look at his ISO to see if he's said something else that statement might be referring to other than being a blatant scumslip.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So he's said "other scumteam" a bunch, but none of them were...well...phrased the way he just phrased that.

Looks like RNGesus wont' be getting his pound of flesh tonight, hebi!

VOTE: Creature

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Creature, I really hope that was an actual scumflip. If you somehow just did that as town...I'm going to be really sad.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Creature, I really hope that was an actual scumflip. If you somehow just did that as town...I'm going to be really sad.

-Cerb

*scumslip*

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

...

How can people be so quick to respond to me when I'm talking some random bullshit defense that's basically fucking of no value, but it takes people forever to respond to a blatant scumslip, when my other head(who, btw, has been INACTIVE AS FUCK) IMMEDIATELY responded to it.

You all disappoint me.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So you're pushing me based on barely post RVS stuff from hundreds of pages ago? Huh.

Thought more people would be voting me based off my bad toog push there.


VOTE: RR


Honestly, Nah fuck your slot.

A hundred pages ago! And nothing you've done since then is actually interesting, so your bad reaction is *still* bad. *shrug*

-Cerb

Which is why reaction tests are bullshit and I'm not going to police myself to react however the hell MS wants me to.

But I honestly think you're scum anyhow, so kay.

ALSO ALSO IT WASN'T A REACTION TEST.

btw.

It was a legit push based on literal RNG, which you responded poorly to. Like, if you view that as a reaction test, then literally anything anyone has done can be viewed as such.

Also also why wouldn't we trust BEF? Implied guilty(which, btw, I hadn't actually realized was what you were probably getting at, BEF, so you should probably work on actually putting together some sort of case, or at least(if you aren't going to put in the effort to get peopel to lynch your guilties, just park your vote on them all day so when you flip people correctly assume you had a guilty on them), correct course of action is to lynch it, right? Hmm. Someone should shoot whichever of Hebi/Creature we don't lynch today.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: Tails

can't really be bothered to catch up right now, so this is where my mind was before.

this is her buddy.

Why, Creature, RR?

Look at the second to last post in Creatures ISO. Look at his post immediately prior to that, and the posts in context of that second to last post.

Does it look like he's responding to someone /correcting something he's said in THIS thread?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh nvm, Clemency flipped goon

So we got the other scumteam's goon

...Really?

That post above, and what you got out of it was "Creature thinks someone else is going to flip not clem team goon", and not "Creature thought Clemency flipped a PR of some sort for the other scum team(note how he immediately posted the piece of the flip having to do with fake claims, which seems to imply that he thought that was actually Clemency's role and he posted it in the wrong place), and was noting to his TEAM that he was wrong about him being a PR"

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

What's more damning is that Creature posted that and just ghosted.
VOTE: Creature

yep yep. It's creature, I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because...it's Creature. He says weird shit, and had already used that phrase "other team" before...but, that plus not even saying anything else? Lynch yo.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

An hour late Creature.

@people talking about hinted guilties: Until BEF explicitly claims the guilty(which they could at this point, given that they've now lost all their anonymity), it's not a guilty. It's someone implying they have a guilty as a way to get someone they're suspicious of lynched.

@CheekyTeeky: It's the post as a whole. profii's posts weren't obvious snippets of a conversation that was meant to occur elsewhere. If he had said *anything* with no connection to what was being said/had been said, in teh form of him CORRECTING something he HAD NEVER SAID here, then even without the "other scumteam" bit I'd still consider it a slip.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Varsoon:

We would be well off with a heb lynch today. How many times do I have to hint at it?

All anti-Town players have been provided with proper fake claims.

Hmm, is it really?

Oh nvm, Clemency flipped goon

So we got the other scumteam's goon

Just in case you need a fake claim at any point; you may claim "Gabe Walker" (from: Cliffhanger 1993). You may claim your role to be a Vanilla Townie OR a Motion Detector

Creature, please explain how the last three posts of this set of quotes relate to anything that was said in close proximity to them. That is, how any of them are in any way an organic part of the posting occurring in this thread.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hmm.

Actually. I sort of see a way it could be a legit not scum slip, when I put them all in a quote together like that.

:-/.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Like, if creature is literally just talking to himself, and not actually completing any of his thoughts? :-/ I guess it could be a not-scum thing. *sigh*

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Varsoon:

We would be well off with a heb lynch today. How many times do I have to hint at it?

All anti-Town players have been provided with proper fake claims.

Hmm, is it really?

Oh nvm, Clemency flipped goon

So we got the other scumteam's goon

Just in case you need a fake claim at any point; you may claim "Gabe Walker" (from: Cliffhanger 1993). You may claim your role to be a Vanilla Townie OR a Motion Detector

Creature, please explain how the last three posts of this set of quotes relate to anything that was said in close proximity to them. That is, how any of them are in any way an organic part of the posting occurring in this thread.

-Cerb

First one is pointing a softclaim

Second one I was looking for some rule saying there were no VTs, but then I stumbled into that rule (therefore scum would've had something better to claim)

Third one I pointed the fact one scumteam had their goon flipped and thus that made me believe hebi could be the other scumteam's goon

Fourth one is directly quoting Clemency's fakeclaim

So why would you believe hebi would be the other team's goon? I see how you just...latched right onto the interpretation Nero made, but it doesn't make any sense.

Why goon over other roles?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

...is it really a role madness game if you're a VT, though?

inb4 Cheeky Godfather

...is it really a role madness game if you're a VT, though?

TBF, token VTs in a role madness are a thing. Not that I believe Hebi but with as much modding exp. as you have I'm surprised you'd think this.

All of my games don't.
I think VT's a bum role to give someone in a game full of other roles.
Hell, even in my Varsoon Mafia game, the VT was informed that they were the only VT in setup.

Nah, it was an informed-anti-fake-claim role.

So what if we were to tell you that if Hebichan is actually a VT then there are at least TWO VT's this game?

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Umm.

Yeah, alch v bef 1v1 is clearly in alchs favor. BEF as scum pgo(perhaps with a protective) sorta explains the cop claim scenario? Draw the enemy teams fire, draw town vigs fire if wrong. Not sure if that's actually worth it, but the math isn't as bad as a standard scum fake guilty 1 for 1.

Consider my vote there in spirit, but I'm reticent to end the day without hearinf whwt anyone else might have to share.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

BEF: I highly recommend EXPLICIT statements, not vague warnings.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, also I'm very willing to hammer. Fucking hate games without flips.

-Cerb

Pedit:repeat it, and this time say the words that make you think what you think. Run it by the mod, get as close to your role pm as is allowed.

[Reasonably Rational]

For example, state the fucking role that can kill you. State the role that causes others to die. If you don't have that information, tell us what you BELIEVE those roles to be, and why.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Elaborate on your fucking theories BEF. You have two posts and an arbitrarily small amount of time to do so. If youve posted twice more or take too long you obviously don't have any actual fucking theories.

-Cerb

Pedit: and the rest?

[Reasonably Rational]

Is "can only be lynched by real hammer" text from your role pm?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

But that's the meaning? You're claiming to have a modifier that keeps you from being lynched by anything other than a "real" hammer. Now elaborate on the part about what can happen to the rest of the wagon.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: Unvote

I’m just going to try killing him tonight. People (scum) can try to stop me, but they’ll likely die in the process.

I have a feeling he’s a scum role that can kill a lot of people , and that he isn’t necessarily lying about that.

I just realized your sig claims your boonskies.

Is this true???
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

lynch is still on btw
dont let him terrorize you
If he was scum and he could kill all those people he wouldnt tell us

I feel like you're arguing against him being scum.

Also, thoughts on risk mitigation? (because it could totally be true and him still be scum btw)

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

why would he tell us about it if it's true

1) If he's also a PGO and wants to get a free guaranteed vig kill
2) To give his teammates cover for not being on his wagon(since we'll naturally immediately search for those who weren't on the wagon as teammates)
3) If he has a protective passive and is just buying time

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

This is silly. If he does have the ability to kill odds/evens, then it just bumps up against the max kill per day/night rule right?

No reason to let that almost certainly empty threat stall this.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm your huckleberry Pintouricchio!

VOTE: BrightEyedFish

Not sure if BuJaber's vote will count on the auto thing or not.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: gamma

VOTE: Tails

A Ginger Ninja

[/quote]

Alonzo's two votes at the start of D2 and D3, best indicators(imo) of who his targets were. He didn't keep voting for either the whole day, but he did vote for gamma until it was clear hebi was going to be the lynch. No other posts from him seemed notable on a glance. Did someone receive any results on D2/D3 that may have been from him?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

2 dead scum, 8 dead town, only two kills tonight, four kills on the previous night(one of which at most was due to BEF), there's an additional expected KPN from last night that did not happen unless it was a limited shot ability. 2 groupscum, 1x sk, and 0x unlimited town vigs, or else protectives were in play.

Armchair setup spec.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@A50: Can you please edit in the roles for each of the flips in the OP? It helps a lot to just see what roles died when without having to go to the actual flips, especially when they're a mess of flavor that doesn't matter for figuring out what information people may have been trying to crumb without claiming.

Also: BEF, next time you use a cop gambit as a PGO to draw fire, claim ascetic at the same time. It'll keep people from getting themselves killed trying to verify you, and though it'll make it a bit harder to keep from being lynched, it'll keep you from killing a doctor accidentally. Also also also: When a tracker exposes themselves to get you lynched, don't try to scare people off the lynch; come clean, and either claim PGO and lose all your utility, but know that you're guaranteed to take out a scum slot unless they want you gamesolving all game long, or else claim something else that isn't cop, but is still threatening to scum.

Also, first thought right now is that BEF received Alonzo's N1 results, saw a guilty, claimed a guilty(to communicate the guilty to whoever the cop was), and that's basically it.

Which, coupled with the likelihood that Alonzo's initial vote was on his cop target means...

VOTE: Gamma

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: RR
One SK.
One.
SK.

Are you seriously going to interpret my obvious conclusion that since there were 3 kills that are unexplained on N2, there are three separate scum killing mechanics in play, and therefore 1x sk+2x groupscums of whatever sizes as an SK claim? Is that what you're doing here Varsoon? Or are you just scum and really looking forward to actually managing to get our slot lynched, since you've seen so many try and fail?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

BEF would not have known who Alonzo's target was, based on A50's previous statements about how results would be displayed; he clearly stated results are in teh form of "your target", with no indication of who the target is; therefore, BEF would not have known who the guilty was on.

I do need to analyze the posts from Nero to see if there's any indication of who he targeted so we can make sure we're not walking into a bus driven mislynch.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Again, quick read over his ISO, and I don't see any clear indicators. He used the word bus once, in reference to bussing on the clemency wagon, and he he didn't use any mobility related words in the context of any other players. Someone with more time should look over NC's ISO and see if they find something I missed, otherwise I'll have Drixx do it later.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Right, someone should also ISO Clemency+Chick+Cheeky and see where that leads them. If I had any strong town reads I'd hand out assignments, but I fucking don't right now. :-/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, A50, I just needed the role name..like goon, or tracker, or whatever. You didn't have to include the factional detail, damnit man.

Welp, I guess that means the joint ISO is useless, since now we know that they weren't on the same team!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

UNVOTE:

I'm bad. Sorry. DVa is right. I completely ignored the "Vanilla" part of Alonzo's cop role, and read it as just "Amnesiac Cop"

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Eh, if Gamma is scum I'd think he's more likely paired with DGB, that's a lot closer to how scum Gamma treats scumbuddies.

btw why haven't we given DGB his jester win yet? -DVa

...

There are 15 alive out of 26 to start the game.

8 dead town, 1 dead from each of two different factions(so we're not close to reducing KPN at all), and 1 3p.

Why do you think we have the time to spend a lynch on someone you suspect is a jester?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So BEF sacrificed himself, hebi, and potentially any protectives that visit him just to kill 1 scum?

Yeah.

Which is why I said what I said about how he should have changed the play he made.

I'd also appreciate giving us 24 hours before lynching gamma. Not going to bother responding to the fortian thing now since they appear to have some result related to us(which, btw, I can't imagine is an investigative that can clear given profiis claim and what has already flipped, hut whatever), but we'd like to look at things and get some actual reads out there without having to simultaneously deal with being obligated to defend ourselves.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So BEF sacrificed himself, hebi, and potentially any protectives that visit him just to kill 1 scum?

to be fair, in multiball, he might have hoped that a fake guilty made both parties believe he was !otherscum so then he could have got 2 which would have been p. cool.

I don't know man that still requires 2 different scum factions deciding to shoot who they suspect is scum. I personally don't assume scum are going to target each other intentionally until a little later in the game.

@pint - why is fortian town?

We have similar reads and they have a good vote history. They have been very cooperative too, and doesn't try to push their own reads in everyone's face. Similar to what RR does but with more precision.

I find it hard to believe their sudden change of heart wrt RR.

The general line of "Pushes X, doesn't get the lynch, so investigates X, get's a result they interpret as innocent, and change their mind" DOES fit, but yes, I'm not really sure what role they could have that would *actually* clear our slot. Gunsmith maybe, that would make sense, especially given that some of the kills haven't had kill flavors.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So BEF sacrificed himself, hebi, and potentially any protectives that visit him just to kill 1 scum?

to be fair, in multiball, he might have hoped that a fake guilty made both parties believe he was !otherscum so then he could have got 2 which would have been p. cool.

I don't know man that still requires 2 different scum factions deciding to shoot who they suspect is scum. I personally don't assume scum are going to target each other intentionally until a little later in the game.

@pint - why is fortian town?

We have similar reads and they have a good vote history. They have been very cooperative too, and doesn't try to push their own reads in everyone's face. Similar to what RR does but with more precision.

I find it hard to believe their sudden change of heart wrt RR.

The general line of "Pushes X, doesn't get the lynch, so investigates X, gets a result they interpret as innocent, and changes their mind" DOES fit, but yes, I'm not really sure what role they could have that would *actually* clear our slot. Gunsmith maybe, that would make sense, especially given that some of the kills haven't had kill flavors.

-Cerb

*haven't had kill flavors involving guns*

(also corrected grammatical errors).

Anyways yeah. That's still not a clear given that non-shot kills existed.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Though bleh nm. NO flavor on the kills for today.

*sigh*

I don't know.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

This is me reiterating my request that some time be given for Drixx and I to contribute, given that he's been running errands all day and I've been working.

This is also me noting that rushing these lynches, and rushing sharing these guilties, is/has been really shitty play, and we should be looking at these rushes of votes carefully because they're certainly not pro-town actions in terms of doing any scumhunting that isn't VCA.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

and rushing sharing these guilties, is/has been really shitty play,

alright scum hunter extraordinaire sheesh

UNVOTE:

obviously this is just to give you some time and I'll be back on when you are ready

Thank you. Just to give you an idea of timeline, Drixx and I have DnD in an hour, which will last for like 4 hours, and after that we'll hopefully be able to get together in realtime and talk about things, since we're eat the point where we *should* be able to figure some shit out if we actually try.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Don't worry Amzela, FL is probably scum and should die. Conditional PGO/Vig combination thing that they can't even predict sounds like a perfectly reasonable SK claim, and a slightly less reasonable groupscum claim. *shrug*

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also DnD *just* ended, and apparently you all have your heads stuck too far up your asses to wait even that long.

...

I'd love for someone to share what the downside of giving us the 24 hours we asked for was, so I can laugh at you.

-Cerb

pedit: That's okay Amzela. Gut is a thing; get back to me, though, when you've dissected what that gut feeling means and determined if it's a false positive based on something stylistic/personality differences between mafia!me and RL!me, or actually a scum tell.