Mini Normal 2050: Serial Killers - Game Over

[Dannflor]

Hey everybody, it's been a while!

What do y'all think the chances are of there being a serial killer in a game called

Serial Killers

?

Oh and

VOTE: podoboq

cuz I can't decide how to pronounce their name

[Dannflor]

Wiki says they're on the normal white list for roles, but it'd be a great troll to name the game that and then not include any

[Dannflor]

Honestly, I would guess the title has nothing to do with the setup.

Probably, but it'd be funny

Poe-dough-bock

Ah see I was saying Pod-oh-bock

UNVOTE: podoboq

VOTE: lolwagons

lol hoppin on the wagon

[Dannflor]

Mewtaph, what draws you to that vote in particular as noteworthy? (given it's post #6 and I assume not a serious case of OMGUS)

Do you think a vote or post along those lines is inherently less useful even in RVS?

[Dannflor]

I mean it's very clearly "on a less serious note," though I am on board with it not being productive. Additionally, how will having an idea of what to expect from him in future posts be helpful? It isn't hard for scum to fake townie consistency when you hand them an opportunity to construct their town persona right at the start of the game.

I don't quite see why

this

is a productive line of thought to follow.

[Dannflor]

Okay, I'm following. I suppose I was assuming perfect play when I stated how easily this enables mafia to sell their townie-ness, which is an error on my part considering what the game is. I appreciate the pursuing of early thought processes to try and progress the game, but I can't say I'm sold on this particular process.

The question is just kinda empty? Maybe I'll see it when we get an answer but there's only so many ways to answer "how do you win as town" and they don't reveal much.

I want to hear how they think town should approach achieving their win condition because I think it'll help me discern whether that vote was one of complexity (an actual reflexive action against votes on them) or on a less serious note.

I agree with the rest of your reasoning but I still think this ^^ was stupid.

Also, can you guys explain your Mewtaph votes? Despite my reservations about his methods he's willing to push the game forward and is one of the few players to post literally anything of value so far. I'm feeling town

[Dannflor]

The more information town has the better the chance there is at finding scum, as deception is harder the more information is on the board.

[Dannflor]

The two kinda go hand in hand, no? More content means more examples of behavior to draw from—information includes the way people behave.

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE: UNVOTE: lolwagons
VOTE: VOTE: Doughboy

I’m not sure anyone can meta me. I’m evolving my play each game as I adjust to this site.

This isn't particularly helpful and really just sounds like someone who doesn't want to be meta'd. Your last post was #13 and it was a joke post, you have no comments on Mewtaph's chain of questioning and reasoning that occurred between then and now? Do you agree with one person in particular? Why did you decide not to comment at all and instead focus on yourself, when the focus has been on Mewtaph and lolwagons for the last page?

The shading and discrediting of my slot from being effectively listened for questioning two opening posts devoid of content is not appreciated in any case.

Is the OMGUS the only reason you singled out lolwagons for this questioning? Why not Doughboy who also engaged in joking OMGUS? Why not any of the other RVS votes that could be deemed similarly "unproductive?"

[Dannflor]

I always focus on myself first, then I worry about everyone else.

I usually categorize self focus as a scum tell, I don't know what reason town would have to focus on themselves early on unless it's a habit of the player as you say.

You don't think people can meta you. Yet, this is something you always do? So we could confirm this is something you do regardless of alignment if we meta'd you?

I await your reads/opinions on the last page. Laziness isn't necessarily scum but it is anti-town. It's quite literally a single page worth of posts, it's not like this game is moving extraordinarily fast yet.

[Dannflor]

Yea oops, probably should've figured they wouldn't be allowed in games this small.

mbaki, would you like to try and create interesting discussion or are you just waiting for others to do that

[Dannflor]

This is just explicitly wrong. The logical conclusion of this statement is that town should all claim immediately, because the more information town has the better. Concealing information from scum is also a factor, and Mewtaph's intro into this game is extremely sloppy if it's town play.

You're right, I was being too general. I meant to imply that the more content/opinions generated the more town has to work with. Obviously everything can't be out in the open, but there's a reason sharing reads (by all players) is helpful to the town.

Also, why is Mewtaph's intro sloppy if he's town? What information does does he give away that he shouldn't?

[Dannflor]

Okay, been rereading and going through various people's ISOs to try and put everything together in my head and my impressions are:

- Mewtaph and lolwagons feel town. Both did their part in moving the game out of RVS, and I thought reacted well when pressure was applied to them. That whole feud/debate/whatever feels very town vs. town.
- Doughboy's kinda null until he posts anything relevant. Actually, no one else has posted enough of substance for me to have anything more than vague gut feelings on except for...

UNVOTE:

Alright, not confident enough to leave Mewtaph at L-1.

I really really hate this post the more I look at it.

Mewtaph's intro into this game is extremely sloppy if it's town play.

Mewtaph's posts do not pass a Turing test.

These both read as incredibly confident that Mewtaph's play is scummy, though I echo Mewtaph's question on what the Turing test comment means exactly. Yet, he immediately backs off as soon as he realizes he accidentally put Mewtaph at L-1? If podoboq believes Mewtaph's play is "extremely sloppy" at best and scummy at worst, what is the harm in applying even more pressure to him and seeing how he reacts? Where's the negative? This reads as scum realizing they made a mistake, and being scared of town seeing them as too brazen or gungho about a lynch that will flip town—not wanting to be

that guy

who puts someone at L-1—and instead fence-sitting because that feels less dangerous or less in the spotlight.

This whole issue is exacerbated by the fact of him jumping right back on the wagon when mbaki unvotes. Clearly he wants to push the wagon, he just doesn't want to be the one who puts him at L-1 because that draws too much attention.

Podoboq, do you seriously believe someone is going to quick hammer 3 pages in and with 10 days left on the clock?

UNVOTE: Doughboy
VOTE: podoboq

[Dannflor]

True. The point is he was under the impression he'd just put Mewtaph at L-1.

[Dannflor]

But that is my point? Podoboq thought he was putting Mewtah to L-2 ---> lolwagons says the modmissed his earlier vote ---> Podoboq unvotes because he thinks he put the wagon at L-1.

Is that not what I said before or am I missing something with the timeline here

[Dannflor]

Initial read is that Dann is town.

I don’t like Mewtaph’s questioning, I think it was pretty obviously a joke and that the line of questioning comes from someone wanting to look like they’re doing something rather and logically thinking through to the conclusion Dann reached (about giving the answers away before a response). My intent was to get us out of RVS early and it seems to be working.

Vote Mewtaph

That’s L-2 I believe.

This is his initial vote in case you were thinking post #60 was lolwagons not counted vote on Mewtaph

[Dannflor]

When placing my vote, the intention was to bring the wagon to L-2. lolwagon's vote brings the wagon to L-1, regardless of the order in which our two votes were placed. I didn't want the wagon sitting on L-1.

By placing a vote at L-2, the intention is to get reactions from not only Mewtaph, but other players, without the immediate risk of lolhammers or Mewtaph claiming as a surprise town pr. If directly after my vote, the wagon is at L-1, whether it's because another person immediately followed me by voting or the previous L-2 was missed, my vote is no longer accomplishing its goal.

I think the order is incredibly important. You intention was to bring the wagon to L-2, but you afterwards realized it had been the vote to bring the wagon to L-1 instead. The distinction of whose vote actually put Mewtaph at L-1 is important imo, and from your perspective, it was yours accidentally.

Podoboq, do you seriously believe someone is going to quick hammer 3 pages in and with 10 days left on the clock?

Oh, by the way, yes. I've seen lolhammers happen before, and I doubt that you haven't. Lolclaims are also a problem, where an inexperienced, frustrated, or simply bad player sees themselves at L-1 and just claims because lol. I don't think either is a positive result with this little progress into the game.

This is my first game on site for over three years, but aren't both these things still incredibly taboo? Especially considering we aren't in a newbie game? What town player is gonna quick hammer with the knowledge they'd be the next lynch target if Mewtaph flips town?

Based on your read of Mewtaph, if he is town, do you think an lolclaim would be a serious problem in putting him at L-1? I know you said his play was sloppy at best, but he seems to think about the game logically enough that I don't see something that stupid happening.

Podoboq unvoting is a town instinct. I like it

But why

OMGUSing twice on people who have players on their bandwagons within four pages is scummy. Yes. Player specifics do not matter. It shows a focus on lynching those that suspect you and those that are also vulnerable to a lynch which is literally the cookie cutter way to play as mafia.

VOTE: podoboq
Speaking of L-2s, this would be considered one of them.

Oh this is BAD. As I said before, I read the previous lolwagons vs. Mewtaph exchange as town, even the subsequent unvote is fine IMO. Felt like town willing to admit they might've been wrong. But uh.... This vote sheeping me

again

is pretty bad.

Mewtaph, you essentially naked vote podoboq here in post #80 and then every post after is basically questioning and criticizing the reasoning behind the votes on you. What the hell is your reasoning for your vote on podoboq? You're doing what I accused Doughboy of earlier in that you have an incredible self-focus where you care more about others' opinions on you than your own opinions on other people.

I assume you think podoboq is scummy, why? If it's just sheeping my vote and argument (again), why did you not respond to podoboq's own rebuttal to my argument that occurred directly before your vote? You thought no additional comment or addition necessary? You're constantly asking people to explain their reasoning and then discrediting that reasoning, yet remain shockingly opaque with your own reasoning.

Why did you vote for podoboq? because blindly following my lead or OMGUS are the two most self evident reasons, and they don't paint a pretty picture

[Dannflor]

I remember lolhammers still happened. lolclaims are more common

well that's DUMB

Well, now I see you're suggesting OMGUSing twice is scum-indicative, for when asked to elaborate, you referred back to the timing; when asked to elaborate on

that

, you referred back to my votes following when another player has voted me (essentially just saying OMGUS is scummy). Is there a more player-specifc reason why you're scum reading me?

Mewtaph, can you also answer why lolwagons thinking OMGUSing is scummy is not satisfactory to you? What was the point of your whole intro to the game if you don't think OMGUS is scummy or at the very least useless?

[Dannflor]

Dannflor, how competent of a scum player do you reckon you are? Can you link your most recent 2 scum games please?

I reckon I'm pretty shit as scum.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=24421
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=24395

Not very recent unfortunately but these are my last scum games

[Dannflor]

Yea, I also replaced out of that first one, so maybe not the best example, but those are my only two scum games on the site

Town Games:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=25526
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=31030

All my other games are town too if you want more

[Dannflor]

That's fair. Second scum game I didn't even know who my scum buddies were until the very end so I assumed I just played bad and got lucky my team carried.

And yea I remember that game was fun despite going out early

[Dannflor]

Why are you openly admitting you aren't discussing the game and then questioning mbaki for exactly the same thing, when he's done much more than you

[Dannflor]

Also Mewtaph, I still want to hear thoughts on podoboq + your vote on him

[Dannflor]

Also Mewtaph, I still want to hear thoughts on podoboq + your vote on him

podoboq? Was waiting for the AI content after our initial exchange but the underhanded attack on player over play makes me difficult to make objective commentary wrt his alignment currently.

Okay... This still doesn't really answer any of my questions on why exactly you are voting podoboq. If you must, remove yourself from the recent "attack on player over play" and go back to when you first made the vote. Why did you do that? And why then without any further elaboration?

PEDIT: I see you citing the townread on bristep123, is that the bulk of it?

[Dannflor]

Dude what

You pop in to cherry pick one non game-related interaction and then defend this shitty choice by saying you aren't really discussing the game because it's boring? Why are

you

focusing on such a frivolous thing?

despite looking possibly game-impacting at the start

How the fuck did that interaction look possibly game-impacting at the start? Please, be specific.

[Dannflor]

I thought that their thoughts overall (on me and bristep123) leading up to the vote was a bit jarring in some sense so

I was fine with voting there to see how they would respond wrt them looking towards themselves to explain the L-1/L-2 vote philosophy and unvote.

This doesn't track with the timeline. You voted for podoboq

after

he'd already responded to me and explained his philosophy. Why are you saying that was one of your reasons for voting now?

[Dannflor]

Yikes.

Anyway, it seemed relevant because at one point mbaki asked Xtoxm’s alignment in the other game, which looked like he was taking an actual interest in the meta information that could be gained.

I am actually on board with calling this revisionist history. If you read the exchange you see Xtoxm initiated the discussion about his alignment and asked mbaki what he thought. How does mbaki answering "Scum, I would guess." come close to looking like "he was taking an actual interest in the meta information that could be gained?"

Using something that

didn't actually happen

to support the reason you cherry-picked this interaction does look like revisionist history, because it's not just you mixing up who said what, it's you mixing up the whole chain of events and thinking it means something it doesn't.

I like shitposting sometimes but

it wasn’t adding anything

despite looking possibly game-impacting at the start

so I was wondering where it was going.

What all this really means is that your only valid reason for post #132 is that the interaction between the two wasn't adding anything to the game. That's self evident. Both players—mbaki more so than Xtoxm—have added more to the game than you have anyways. The extra meaning you're taking from the words of mbaki's explanation is also terrible.

That actually

worsens

your position as you took no interest in any sort of meta prodding.

His position that what? What is his position? mbaki straight up admitted that the 3 post interaction didn't add to the game, here you are trying to pull something... I'm not even exactly sure what, out of it. This is so desperate, and currently bothering me more than anything else in this game.

UNVOTE: podoboq
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Dannflor]

Would scum openly misrep something so easy to just go back and check? Like, there's no way scum Gamma is intentionally misrepping this, knowing it takes 10 seconds to find out that it's not accurate. Using this as justification that Gamme is scum rather than he just mixed things up seems like a leap.

My first instinct when Gamma posted #132 was that he just made a mistake as town. A shitty, not helpful post, but not necessarily alignment indicative. His followup and

doubling down

on his clear misstep is what changed me mind there. He is

still

voting for mbaki, partly for reasons that—as you said—he could easily take 10 seconds to find out that it's not accurate. The fact that he's basically fabricated a conflict out of nothing doesn't read town, it reads desperation.

I do not understand why a town Gamma would not just admit he made a mistake or was barking up the wrong tree and reexamine the content in this game.

That actually worsens your position as you took no interest in any sort of meta prodding.

His position that what? What is his position? mbaki straight up admitted that the 3 post interaction didn't add to the game, here you are trying to pull something... I'm not even exactly sure what, out of it.

Gamma, do you have a good answer for this? Or even an answer?

[Dannflor]

This is true. That wasn't what I was thinking when I posted that. Doesn't change the current impact.

Why do see mbaki as scummier than Mewtaph now?

[Dannflor]

Nvm you aren't voting him anymore. What are your reads on mbaki/podoboq/Mewtaph?

[Dannflor]

I believe it is most likely he was desperate to distract for some reason, meaning his partner was probably one of the two wagons (Podoboq and Mewtaph, more likely the latter who's wagon is more significant). This is more just a pocket theory than something I'm seriously pushing, though.

It's an interesting theory, but not sure it makes a ton of sense considering Gamma Emerald put Mewtaph at L-1 a page before and nothing super impactful happened between that vote and his post calling out the mbaki/Xtoxm interaction—unless he changed his mind about bussing suddenly. Which, might be possible? but not sure why he would have voted for Mewtaph so easily to begin with then.

Though I will admit his progression from Mewtaph > mbaki > podoboq is hardly natural.

[Dannflor]

I’m feeling this bite more at this point
VOTE: mbaki

mbaki while I dislike some of his play seems to be engaging with people in a towny way, especially podoboq.

That's a pretty big swing, no? I'm confused why you switched your vote to mbaki based on "disliking some of his play" when you still have/had a scumread on Mewtaph.

podoboq I’m pretty clearly scumreading, I think he thought I’d be glad to have a whiteknight at my side but he overstepped by pushing mbaki for something I did too when he never once expressed that sort of feeling with me.

You mean bristep instead of mbaki here, right? What do you think about the rest of podoboq's ISO?

I'm not convinced by the argument that podoboq is "attacking" bristep for something Gamma didn't do. However, I will say podoboq

does

have a lot of posts with a disproportionate amount of them not actually doing anything but trying to look town. (This includes his unvote on Mewtaph which I still have very icky vibes about) His questioning of bristep could be lumped in here as well. Plus his early town read on him.

[Dannflor]

I feel like a little of that earlier scum read might have just been reactionary.

Town reading this because I don't think scum admits that one of their reads was reactionary, I think they try to justify it better. Additionally, I'm not seeing a reason for the desperation play I named Gamma's entrance as, given I don't think it makes sense for Gamma to be distracting from the Mewtaph wagon the way he did, and podoboq's wagon only had 2 people on it.

Now leaning closer to my original gut instinct that Gamma is town who just had a really really bad entrance to the game.

For now UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald

I'm going to come back later and reread the game from the start. Try to clear up conflicting feelings I have about a couple players.

[Dannflor]

I feel its appropriate to let you know he informed me that he was in a car accident and will be in the hospital for a while. Send him some love if you have time.

That's awful. I wish him a speedy recovery.

Okay. I reread the game and while it didn't quite give me the clarity I was hoping for I'm still gonna consolidate all my thoughts here and hope it sparks me or someone else looking at it. I imagine this will be quite the long post, and normally I'd apologize for that, but it looks like we're stuck for content anyway, so hopefully this encourages discussion of some sort or at the very least some posts from our in active slots.

READS:

Mewtaph -

Town

Gamma Emerald -

Town

mbaki -

Town

LolWagons -

Town

Podoboq -

Mixed

Doughboy -

Null

bristep123 -

Scum

Xtoxm -

Scum

As you can see, I town read basically all the active players right now, which is problematic. I'm not usually one to default to the "lurkers are always scum" thought process, and these are by no means definitive reads, but the others have town pinged me enough I kinda

have

to think one of the lurking players is at least one part of the scum team. I'll start with my town reads.

Mewtaph

Looking back over the game, the case on Mewtaph is pretty flimsy. One aspect of it is the phrasing of his initial questioning of LolWagons. Podoboq points out in post #86 that "How someone should go about achieving their town win condition" (the way Mewtaph initially phrased the question) is not as natural as "How town should go about achieving their win condition." By itself this is a good point. However, only two posts after Mewtaph initially phrased the question, he restated it in post #17 as "I want to hear how they think town should approach achieving their win condition..." Which completely matches the supposed "more natural" way of phrasing the question. This makes me think Mewtaph wasn't really paying special attention to how he was phrasing the question or else he would have stayed consistent with it.

There's also a lot of talk about how Mewtaph's posts are robotic and inorganic in general. His style of posting has been consistent, and glancing through his meta, I rather think this is just his style and not alignment indicative. His behavior and reactions to extreme pressure early on don't strike me as scum behavior either. His posts #37, #41, #94, and #171 all town ping me to varying degrees as specific examples. Respectively, I don't think scum!Mewtaph backs down from LolWagons as easily as he does, I don't think scum generally think in terms of what the "objectively best" place is to put their vote and rather what their scum reads should be, and finally I think scum!Mewtaph would be happy the Gamma push pops up to allow his wagon to fly under the radar for a bit, but he specifically prods bristep123 to comment on it.

Gamma Emerald

As for Gamma Emerald, I've already largely explained this in previous posts, but I'll reiterate. Post #197 is extremely town. Scum generally just operates more carefully when it comes to their reads and how they got them, IMO. Furthermore, there's just no reason for Gamma to make the bad posts he did as scum—which is why I now peg it as a bad town entrance. Since the scum have daychat (I assume that's what "the mafia private thread will be predominantly open" means), it'd logically follow that Gamma could've made his attack on mbaki as some sort of distraction for the wagons on Podoboq or Mewtaph. As I've explained before, none of these scenarios make sense. There's no real reason to make such a blatantly bad move as scum and sit on it, unless it was just a huge blunder. But, I find town much more probably. Thus, this is probably the read I'm most confident about in the game.

Mbaki and LolWagons

I'll admit I don't have as specific reasons for mbaki and LolWagons being town, as it's mostly just gut feelings coming from their posts. I will say that of the two feuds with Mewtaph, I like LolWagons' side more than I like podoboq's push. His reactions to Mewtaph in posts #134 and #141 specifically also read town to me. As for mbaki, I just really like the way he uses his votes so far and how/where he pushes reads as town. I think scum would've gotten more involved in either the Mewtaph or Podoboq wagons and tried to push one of those, whereas mbaki admits he's not sure what his feelings are on either right now.

Podoboq

I have lots of conflicting feelings on Podoboq, moreso than any player. This was the slot I was most hoping rereading would clarify for me, but it just muddied the waters more. I

still

dislike the unvote of the Mewtaph wagon on principle, as I think town would behave more like Gamma Emerald did in post #109 and not really care if they're putting what they thought to be a pretty icky slot to L-1. I also dislike Podoboq's case on Mewtaph in general. Posts #58, #62, #64 scum ping me quite a bit. Mostly because, the town read on bristep has no basis—or at least not one I understand—and scum generally town reads players for dumber reasons because they already know who is town. Then, his unvote I've gone into quite enough. The psychology of realizing he left Mewtaph at L-1 really rubs me wrong as I've said many times before, but enough on that. And then, the justification for his town read on bristep doesn't track, mostly because I don't think I was "spinning out" there? It doesn't really make sense, though doesn't ping me as hard as the weird unvote.

Despite all that, some of his posts, especially recent posts read town, enough that I'm second guessing some of the bad vibes I was getting earlier.

It just seems odd that you'd choose to expand on bristep123 but pass Gamma Emerald as bad town and move on.

I moved on from him now because I had enough to feel satisfied at this point in the game. bristep happens to be voting one of my scumreads, one I've been rethinking. Then bristep comes in to provide a shred of analysis on something irrelevant to me, when I'm interested in an opinion on the person they're not only scumreading but voting. I'm not getting that, and it's frustrating.

I really like this post in particular. The reasoning for questioning bristep comes from a very town place, a place that wants to get accurate reads on people. Rethinking the Mewtaph scum read also gets townie points in my book.

I was going to paraphrase how I feel about Gamma, which is that it seems like he lazily came to a bad conclusion and is just sticking to it despite the fact that it's pretty clearly a bad conclusion, but you wrote it better than I could.

I also can't fail to mention that podoboq got to the conclusion I eventually got to on Gamma Emerald much faster, one that I think is fully accurate. I think Gamma is town, and I think scum!podoboq pushes Gamma more than he does for making such a stupid move.

I'm not really sold either way on this slot. I echo mbaki's thoughts that only one of Mewtaph or podoboq is scum if at all, and while I personally think podoboq is the more likely of the two to flip red, I'm not confident enough to push for that lynch yet given the state of the game.

Doughboy

There's nothing much to say about the Doughboy slot. He has 7 posts and none of them are really related to any of the content in game.

Bristep and Xtoxm

Bristep and Xtoxm are actually basically as inactive as Doughboy! Though, they do have marginally more posts related to the actual game. As for Bristep, I don't like posts #24 nor #185. However, I admit this could be just a play style difference as I tend to be very transparent with my thoughts and people being secretive without much reason tends to read scummy for me.

Xtoxm is pretty much the worst. He has 7 posts,

THREE

of which are related to the game. In two of them he says some things are vaguely town without much justification, and the other one is jumping on the easy Gamma bandwagon... without voting?

VOTE: Xtoxm

The bristep and Xtoxm slots are almost impossible to read—which if not scum, is at the very least anti-town—and at this point in the game, we

need

more content from them. Still keeping an eye on podoboq, don't know exactly what to think about him yet. I keep going through his ISO and coming away with a different opinion each time. Xtoxm is the scummier of the two inactive slots, and at this point in the game, he really should be using his vote for something, regardless of his interest.

[Dannflor]

I don't like color coding my reads lists, because someone accused me in my first game on site of trying to subliminally affect others' perceptions.

I hadn't considered this before. I'll have to keep that in mind for the future, it's a good point.

Also interesting points on mbaki I hadn't considered. Not ready to hop on board the mbaki is scummy train, but that does remind me I wanted to ask:

mbaki what

do

you think of Gamma Emerald now? I know you don't town read him. My biggest gripe is if he's scum, why the hell would scum do that? Is he just really bad scum? I suppose that argument gets a little into WIFOM territory but I just think bad town is >>> more likely than really bad scum.

I'm worried this means that scum!mbaki is happy with us voting for xtoxm, but for now, I want to pressure that slot regardless.

Yea. At this point in the game the read lists are good, but they aren't enough content-wise given we're still in the thick of D1. With 3 of the 9 slots in this game not really participating it's very hard for the rest of us to move forward.

Also, I could be wrong in this, as maybe I'm townreading too many people, but I don't think both scum could be hiding amongst the current active players.

[Dannflor]

Right now I am working from Xtoxm, Lolwagons, and Dannflor as townies. I have waffled mentally a lot between Podoboq and Mewtaph, I do not believe it is theater though so if one is scum and flips there's that at least. bristep123 and Doughboy have not posted that I remember since I became involved in the game.

Dannflor, Lolwagons, and mbaki is the town core I am working with.

What happened between these two posts? Why did you read Xtoxm as town initially and why did you remove him from your working town list in favor of yourself despite Xtoxm not posting at all between that change. What changed your mind?

[Dannflor]

Because the only thing I can see that changed is the direction of the game towards people being willing to vote for/pressure that slot.

[Dannflor]

First of all

UNVOTE: Sheepsaysmeep

Woo finally we got some life blood in this game

gonna read over the last few pages and be back

[Dannflor]

Right now I am working from Xtoxm, Lolwagons, and Dannflor as townies. I have waffled mentally a lot between Podoboq and Mewtaph, I do not believe it is theater though so if one is scum and flips there's that at least. bristep123 and Doughboy have not posted that I remember since I became involved in the game.

Dannflor, Lolwagons, and mbaki is the town core I am working with.

What happened between these two posts? Why did you read Xtoxm as town initially and why did you remove him from your working town list in favor of yourself despite Xtoxm not posting at all between that change. What changed your mind?

Could you answer this, mbaki?

I think Trekkie is probably town for going after someone most people thought was town but Podo hopping off his read of me quickly is a bit disconcerting.

Agree with Trekkie town read. There are way easier scum reads to push than mbaki and LolWagons.

However, this whole feud between LolWagons and Podoboq the last few pages seems pretty baseless. All podoboq said was he saw the argument Trekkie was making. I did the same thing the page before! I townread mbaki in my big reads post and then realized podoboq made some good points and started reconsidering. That's not to say my read has changed significantly or flipped, but I did see the points he was making. I'm seeing the same thing here and I'm unsure how this evolved into a big argument.

I wouldn't personally view someone "seeing my argument" as jumping off their read

Yes exactly this thank you voice of reason

I don't think podoboq has stated anywhere that his read was changing and I don't feel comfortable with a lynch on him right now. Getting town vs. town vibes from this initially but I'm gonna go back and reread the last few pages from both podoboq and Lolwagons because it's a bit convoluted in the way the drama builds imo. Like, this feels really out of the blue. Which either means this is town vs. town dumbfoolery or scum freaked out somewhere along the lines here. I feel the former but a reread is still warranted.

VOTE: Podoboq

One away from lynch.

Those two things in the same sentence in the manner in which you've so plainly stated them makes me uneasy.

Unless I'm missing something, Podoboq is L-2, not L-1. mbaki, Mewtaph, and Gamma Emerald are currently voting for him. This is easily verifiable and the deliberate way in which mbaki did this makes me think it was an experiment to see who would try to hammer or express intent to hammer. Does scum do that?

Other things I don't think scum does or says:

I have glazed over almost every Mewtaph post this game. Just the way he types I guess.

VOTE: Podoboq

You may place your vote back as it is no longer l-1!

VOTE: Dannflor

I have no solid reads yet in either direction. If anybody wants to inquire as to why I'm voting Dannflor despite my only comments towards his slot being partially agreeing with his case, come to that conclusion yourself.

Dannflor, how competent of a scum player do you reckon you are? Can you link your most recent 2 scum games please?

In the two latter instances, mbaki is the first vote on individuals that relatively little suspicion had been directed towards yet during the game. Particularly with his vote on me, there were two healthy wagons in Mewtaph and Podoboq that—even if he didn't want to himself hammer the L-1 Mewtaph—he could have at least pushed towards vaguely. Instead he went for different directions. It's a more opaque style of play but it reads town. I don't see it as a delay or confusion tactic either as I don't think we were—or are—far enough along in the day for scum to need that. (unless mbaki is scum team with Mewtaph?)

I'd still like an explanation on what he was trying with his last vote on Podoboq, but I think he's town.

Fucking hell I need some scum reads everyone can't be town VOTE: bristep123

Oh one last thing

[Dannflor]

Oh one last thing

I think initial impressions from our replacements will be pretty important. They'll give a fresh perspective and probably see the obvious things that we've either been too entrenched to notice or have dismissed because we've made things too convoluted. Either way I'm looking forward to what Sheep thinks when he's caught up.

I'll reexamine the LolWagons and Podoboq feud before I go to bed, particularly Podoboq's reactionary vote on LolWagons.

[Dannflor]

However, the whole game can't just be town.

Fucking hell I need some scum reads everyone can't be town

Yup, which is why I know I need to look this over again.

Are you planning on explaining your L-1 bait?

Looking over the argument between Podoboq and LolWagons again, it just really really doesn't make sense to me. I don't see how we get from "I'd like to see more justification on LolWagons," and Podoboq even offering evidence for

why he thinks LolWagons is town

to this:

I think Trekkie is probably town for going after someone most people thought was town but

Podo hopping off his read of me quickly

is a bit disconcerting.

Thus, I understand Podoboq's reactionary vote because LolWagons continuing to push this point is weird. You can maybe call it preparation for a shift in opinion at worst but Podoboq literally

defends

LolWagons by calling out post #208 as being significant.

I don't really like LolWagon's case here and the push seems a little scummy but the fact he doesn't jump on the wagon and all the other vibes I've gotten from LolWagons keep my read town.

Wow don't know what to make of this. LolWagons has made some pretty good points.

Bad post. I revoke my earlier Trekkie town read.

I understand you changed your mind about lolwagons not because I said his contributions were lacking but because he took offense to you seeing my point, but I do feel you were a little bit quick to change your mind about him.

This is not great either. I really don't like how Trekkie just sits on the sidelines this whole debate and casually encourages it. This post doesn't really say anything but plant a little bit of doubt about Podoboq without actually committing to anything.

and your contributions in the exchange between you and Mewtaph are lacking IMO

Why? Could you explain this in more detail?

VOTE: Trekkie

I'm also very curious to hear Mewtaph's thoughts on all of this

[Dannflor]

All I was trying to do was make sense of the whole situation for myself as well as lolwagons and podoboq who I felt were like two dogs running in a circle chasing after each others tail.

Wow don't know what to make of this. LolWagons has made some pretty good points.

Which is it? Did you think the argument was circular and pointless or did you think one of them was making "pretty good points?"

Also, I like how the whole argument allowed you to sidestep Podoboq asking you for more justification on your LolWagons read—which is why I'd specifically like you to go into that more.

[Dannflor]

Both I guess. However I wasn't implying I thought the argument was pointless. Circular yes, but pointless? No.
I think podoboq's opinion change of lolwagons was justified because of lolwagons's behavior, but in turn podoboq sort of proved lolwagons's claim that podoboq changed his read rather quickly to be true. Naturally podoboq's change of view of lolwagons took place after lolwagons seemingly overreacted, but at the same time I can't help but feel that maybe lolwagons had a point all along.

Except LolWagon's case wasn't that podoboq changed his opinion or that he did so quickly, but that he did so in response to your read on him and did so without committing to the change, which I don't think is valid. Just because podoboq changes his read later doesn't mean "he had a point all along."

I dislike how you're still dodging my initial question:

and your contributions in the exchange between you and Mewtaph are lacking IMO

Why? Could you explain this in more detail?

Why was his interaction with Mewtaph lacking? Do you think the case against Mewtaph was bad?

I have glazed over almost every Mewtaph post this game. Just the way he types I guess.

Does scum say this? I don’t think mafia tends to say shit like this.

I think Mbaki, Podo, and Bri are town.

I think Dann leans town.

No clue on Gamma. Thought I knew how to read him and a game just wonder where I was wrong.

I’m hanging up the Mewtaph hat for now, I genuinely can’t tell if it’s a play style difference or I’m onto something but I’m willing to look elsewhere.

Bri made a good point about Xtom and I’m not parking my vote on a slot that needs replaced so

VOTE: Xtotm

Damn might have been wrong on one of my town reads.

Danny can have the slot.

Obviously there's not a ton of LolWagons posts sans Mewtaph, but do these not count as being involved with the game? What is your read on LolWagons now, after he "made some good points" against Podoboq?

Mewtaph and Gamma Emerald are... prod dodging?

[Dannflor]

Oh don't worry,

the read on you has changed

...

VOTE: LolWagons

Towny

:
Dannflor
Trekkie
Gamma
Mewtaph

LolWagons

what

[Dannflor]

He messed up his quote tags. I don't think there is a story there.

[Dannflor]

Yep, I'm definitely not a fan of how Mewtaph has essentially faded out of existence since pressure stopped being applied to him.

No I think Lolwagons case against Mewtaph was fine, I was just under the opinion that lolwagons intention in having the discussion with mewtaph was to give the appearance of being involved in a semi-noteworthy discussion so he wouldn't look like a scum trying to stay out of heated discussions.

Mewtaph has not been involved in any real noteworthy discussions outside of his initial spats with podoboq and LolWagons. Nor has he offered many/any real reads of his own thus far in the game. Why is he on your town list if I could make the same case on him that you made on LolWagons?

Mixed. The fact that he was willing to challenge Podoboq could mean my initial opinion of lolwagons was incorrect, or lolwagons felt the the need to step up his game since the discussion of his activity had been brought up.

Which do you think is more likely? I don't like this fence-sitting.

[Dannflor]

I don’t really like how Mewtaph comes in and just asks Trekkie to explain after Dann is clearly already pressuring him.

Are we just accepting Gamma doing the same thing then

[Dannflor]

I think that's fair actually, given his play the whole game. I was just curious if that is what your thought process was.

Mixed. The fact that he was willing to challenge Podoboq could mean my initial opinion of lolwagons was incorrect, or lolwagons felt the the need to step up his game since the discussion of his activity had been brought up.

Which do you think is more likely? I don't like this fence-sitting.

I want to explain this better. Usually mixed reads occur because a player has done both towny and scummy things. Trekkie's "mixed" read here on LolWagons is just saying that something he did "could be either towny or scummy." It looks like it offers up an opinion without actually offering up anything.

[Dannflor]

Mbaki said he was baiting which sounded legit

You also said he's one of your scum reads in post #234. If you've changed your mind about LolWagons, why not vote mbaki? In fact, why aren't you voting

anyone

? You come in with these two scum reads and the only thing you do is UNVOTE LolWagons. And now it doesn't even seem like either of those reads were particularly strong.

[Dannflor]

Town: dannflor, mewtaph, podoboq, lolwagons

Mixed: gamma emerald, mbaki

Null: ofrhz, sheepsaysmeep

I ask again, why aren't you voting? You should at least be pressuring one of your mixed reads to get a better feel for them. Right now, you're doing... Nothing.

I didn’t see any broken tags though...

Literally just look at the post and then how he fixed it two posts later. He was trying to quote me and failed. Do you have anything useful to offer the game? I mean I townread you earlier but your ISO has improved 0%.

[Dannflor]

that trekkie read is just detailed and unique to a poitn where idt it was made up but like thats one post and barely impactful on my overall read

I think it's reasonable for scum to fake nuance, and may even overdo it to see like they put a lot of thought into their reads,

[Dannflor]

I get the inkling that Gamma Emerald isn't scum but just a townie being dead weight. Hopefully this will wake him up.

Who do you think

is

scum? Even if you have a lot of mixed or null reads, who do you think is most likely to flip red?

[Dannflor]

I think he's town

Gamma Emerald is most likely to flip scum.

Like, I know I'm pressuring him to choose someone as scum, but these two sentences directly contradict each other. It implies he thinks everyone in this game is town. I still like Trekkie best as scum today.

VOTE: Ofhrz

Is it odd the two subs are the two most suss slots right now?

Meh. Fits with the theory that this is a town controlled game.

[Dannflor]

An extension would be great for me as well.

[Dannflor]

Why is ofrhz scummy btw

[Dannflor]

Will be gone most of Christmas Eve/Day, but I'll try to use the break productively to give myself space from the game and hopefully come back with clearer reads.

Right now though, I'm still super happy with my Trekkie vote.

It's more that he said he was townreading you and then said you were most likely to flip scum. The read doesn't feel real.

I'm townreading everyone at the moment. Unfortunately I can't get a good scum read on anyone. Gamma Emerald is my best bet at the moment, but I'm hardly satisfied with it. In all fairness though it's only day one.

Yes, we've had an overabundance of town reads this game, but "I can't get a good scum read one anyone" sets off red flags for me. Reads like scum who is having a hard time finding anyone that they can make a good case against or have proper "justification" to push on. In my experience scum cares a lot more about getting "good" reads and making sure they're pushing for the right reasons. His initial scum reads on LolWagons and mbaki support this with just how easily he switched them back up to town (or realized his cases against them weren't as good as he initially thought).

"In all fairness though it's only day one" is yucky. It is Day 1, but I think we've had more than enough content for you to at least have some hunches about who scum likely is. It's possible your town reading everyone because everyone else is town except for your scum buddy.

Also, good to note that basically the only wagon/player that scum!Trekkie could have reasonably pushed or jumped on when he came in was Mewtaph. He chose to townread him. That + the weird pressure Mewtaph threw towards Trekkie a page or so back makes it worth looking there if Trekkie flips red.

I just think scum!Trekkie explains a lot of things about his initial reads and his behavior up through now.

Be back in a day or so.

[Dannflor]

I just don’t see scum-Trekkie taking on the task of pushing my slot unless there was something fairly large to be gained from it.

Also, he didn't really push your slot. He scum read you and mbaki sure, and included some vague reasons why. But he didn't vote and he didn't really elaborate until pressured. In fact he seemed quite content with the debate that followed between you and Podoboq. It seems to me like he was waiting to see if anyone else backed up his scum reads before he actually pushed, like he was trying to play it safe. When it looked like the tides were turning on Podoboq and no one wanted to go after LolWagons, Trekkie comes out with posts like these:

Wow don't know what to make of this.

LolWagons has made some pretty good points

.

I understand you changed your mind about lolwagons not because I said his contributions were lacking but because he took offense to you seeing my point,

but I do feel you were a little bit quick to change your mind about him.

And then sort of tries to take the middle ground when I call him out on it:

Both I guess. However I wasn't implying I thought the argument was pointless. Circular yes, but pointless? No.
I think podoboq's opinion change of lolwagons was justified because of lolwagons's behavior, but in turn podoboq sort of proved lolwagons's claim that podoboq changed his read rather quickly to be true. Naturally podoboq's change of view of lolwagons took place after lolwagons seemingly overreacted, but at the same time I can't help but feel that maybe lolwagons had a point all along.

[Dannflor]

{Dannflor, LolWagons, mbaki}
{Gamma, Trekkie}
{podopoq, ofrhz, Sheepsaysmeep}

Ok last post but the subtle mixed/middling read on Trekkie is another point towards the Mew/Trekkie scum team theory if Trekkie flips red.

[Dannflor]

Why are there four fucking pages on the one day I'm busy. lmao

Trekkie why don't you vote for Mewtaph over LolWagons? You think both are scum, but the Mewtaph wagon is much more likely to happen. If you're so sure of yourself, why not try to get Mewtaph lynched and then build your case on LolWagons? Or are you just not wanting to get your scum buddy lynched so easily while you're under this much pressure as well?

I have more to comment on but it'll have to be later.

[Dannflor]

mew

if you really want me lynched at some point

put your actual reasons for w reading me into one post

i dare you

Posturing.

Mew you're really not helping your own case here

[Dannflor]

mbaki is town. There are things this slot has done that scum never ever does. I can quote specific examples later.

Gamma is also town and I actually think scum reads on this slot are a little sus. If he's scum, hats off to him, but I sincerely doubt it and I've explained why already. Scum, generally, need a reason to do the things they do. He has no reason to do the things he's done and I refuse to believe he's that bad of a scum player, even if his town play is nothing to write home about.

The fact that four pages have been generated once the pressure started ramping up on Mewtaph and Trekkie together means something. Scum team caught on day 1? It's still presumptuous, but I believe there is at least one scum somewhere here.

[Dannflor]

Still confident in Trekkie lynch most today, but I'll have to reread today's content still. I'll check in sporadically but probably won't be back to post until tonight.

[Dannflor]

It may be because I just woke up but I'm not seeing the stark difference in tone you're seeing Mewtaph, would you mind spelling it out for me?

[Dannflor]

Well, I was gonna ask how Trekkie's read on Mewtaph got from top town read to top scum read in a manner of pages, but I guess that's moot now.

Mewtaph, what is your read on Trekkie, before this flips?

[Dannflor]

And LolWagons, I know you're frustrated, but I think there was still usefulness to be gleaned out of the rest of this day. Not sure early hammer was optimal.

[Dannflor]

I feel like the parent to a bunch of squabbling kids.

[Dannflor]

Oh shit, I actually thought LolWagons had hammered. This is what I get for trying to keep up with this mess without proper time. Be back later, no one hammer until people have answered my questions at the very least please.

[Dannflor]

Not sure I like Sheep's constant attempts at discrediting the Trekkie wagon. Especially since he keeps going back and forth with his read on him and seems to be testing the waters to see which read the rest of us "approve of." Sheep what exactly makes you so much more confident on Mewtaph over Trekkie? Is it just that Trekkie reads as newb town to you or?

@thespio, Also, mbaki isn't voting Trekkie, he's voting Ofrhz I think

So Trekkie is at L-2 actually.

[Dannflor]

I hope you know how hard I am going to push you if Trekkie flips scum.

This is a micro, with 2 scum. If Trekkie is one there is literally 1 other scum, and that scum can only do so much to fight this. Bussing might be their only choice, and the only person hard pushing Trekkie originally was Dann who coincedantally is the most widely townread slot. The scum are content argument is god awful in all circumstances in micros.

Basically this.

I don't like Sheep right now and I actually like him more as scum partner to Trekkie than Mew atm. However, a flip on Trekkie should happen first because if he flips town a lot of this theorizing goes out the window.

Mbaki and LolWagons are town. I'm confident in this. Sheep you have not done enough for me to town read you and I already scum read the player you replaced. Podoboq is probably town too.

Also, any doctor type role should be on Dann tonight probably.

dude stop

Also, I guess I'm biased obviously but why is this bad? It makes most sense for scum to target me regardless of who I'm pushing considering I'm the most townread player in the game (I think). I don't understand the baseless pushing onto mbaki.

As for ofrhz, I certainly don't town read him but I don't understand the scum read, he's more null atm with how much he's posted unless anyone cares to explain.

What's dadv?

im starting to kinda shift on mbaki

This is bad.

[Dannflor]

The shift on mbaki is forced. The only thing that happened to cause sheep's read on him to "shift" is mbaki calling Sheep out and saying he would push him if Trekkie flipped scum. So, Sheep realizes he's in danger and starts shifting his read of Mbaki to scum preemptively?

Probably realized a Mew lynch wasn't happening today and isn't confident enough that he'll be able to push it before mbaki/others catch on to him.

[Dannflor]

+ the reluctance to go on Trekkie, Sheep should be D2 lynch if Trekkie is scum.

[Dannflor]

sheep
mbaki, dann
lolwagons
--
ofrhz, podo
--
trekkie/doughboy, gamma
mew

also i have lolwagons as a villager and that was kinda just making sure my reads matched my feeling so im actually pretty confident in what i have rn

Goes from confident in mbaki town read to shifting without anything of note happening in between regarding mbaki?

???

[Dannflor]

i dont disagree that dann is a great protect

but dont fucking direct prs in thread

it's antitown

Why?

dann your disliking me turning around on mbaki is confbiased

you think it makes sense in a world where im wolf and for whatever reason need more scumreads but i dont see any reason as to why i cant just actually have a changing read

mbaki's posting this last page was objectively terrible

I dislike your turn on mbaki because I heavily town read mbaki and I don't see any good reasons behind your turn. I don't necessarily think you're scum until Trekkie flips, I can't pretend to predict both scum on Day 1 which is why I still want a Trekkie flip. You haven't given me any reason for having a changing read except for mbaki's posting the last page being "objectively terrible?" Which is... incorrect?

[Dannflor]

I don't see what mbaki did as role fishing nor do I think suggesting a course of action really affects the game negatively for town beyond maybe some WIFOM arguments.

and once you started posting i just realized wait this guy exists and reread your iso and what i originally townread you for kinda felt more nai this time around? it wasnt actually me suddenly scumreading you but more me being like shit idk what to do with this slot anymore help me @lolwagons

So you're... Null reading mbaki now?

[Dannflor]

I like Mbaki because he’s not afraid to make strong townreads but he doesn’t really buddy them.
I came out of my one on one with Podo feeling he was just frustrated town.
I’ve expressed I can’t read Gamma. My biggest townread (Dann) has expressed he’s town so I’m trusting that for now.

I don’t really feel sheep is scum even if Trekkie flips scum. To me the Trekkie/Mew pair still works better overall. Sheep has been really stream of consciousness through most of the thread and I feel like that’s a bit harder to fake. I still think Trekkie’s behavior towards me vs the mew-wagon eclipses any other person in terms of possible partners for Trekkie.

Gamma is probably town, though I've become increasingly frustrated with his play and wish he'd give any input on relevant things.

I think we have a lot to work off of given a Trekkie flip, if scum, we look at Mew or Sheep, if town, we look at Ofhrz.

@Sheep, do you still oppose a Trekkie lynch in favor of Mew? Do you think a Mew lynch gives us more information?

I echo mbaki's thoughts however and we should get everyone weighing in before a lynch, could result in good info to go on if there are any surprises Day 2.

[Dannflor]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77801

this is the only completed game that trekkie has on site

he was a mafia who was mechanically guiltied after he replaced into a slot that claimed dcotor

i actually have a seom form of an opinion on him meta-wise after reading his posts in there and i want to hear both of dann/lolwagons thoughts on it before i say smtg because i want your unaffected by confbias opinions

It's not a lot to go on but his half-hearted vote on Flavor Leaf matches up with his less than stellar vote on Gamma Emerald in this game. I'd say the meta fits scum but I wouldn't use it as strong supporting evidence.

[Dannflor]

i thought he was really derpy there/didnt know what to do compared to here where i thought he was posting more logically/solvingly

but yeah you reminded me why i originally scumread him which was for how awkward some of the things he posted early were

I mean I would consider his play this game really awkward/derpy if he's town. Anything he's done after I started pressuring him and especially during the whole LolWagons vs. Mew/Trekkie fiasco fits that MO.

[Dannflor]

+ the reluctance to go on Trekkie, Sheep should be D2 lynch if Trekkie is scum.

ggwp

Fun game. Mafia probably had it hard replacing into slots that hadn't really contributed to the game at all for the first half.

[Dannflor]

I like how the general consensus was that most of the activity was town and that turned out to be correct

Yea things coulda gone bad since town had so much time amongst our selves to squabble and potentially get bad reads. I guess we figured it out eventually though.

[Dannflor]

Yea it was a tough position. I think you guys did alright with what you had to work with. Town just had such a long time to be towny at each other and solidify reads. Mewtaph was basically the only viable counter wagon all game.

[Dannflor]

I actually have a wack scum theory on someone else but I'd need the thought of sheep being town linger in my mind for a long while for me to genuinely consider it to the point of pushing it. I could air it though?

btw what was this out of curiosity?